Civvy to military handovers.
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Chilli Monster:
We had a mil ATCO try to explain this (very briefly) at a MCASD today and I thought I had it but now you've gone and got me all confused again.
What the man told us was something along the lines of:
No contact between the controllers: "freecall"
Details passed but not a formal handover: "continue with"
Radar handover: "contact"
Is that correct, for military controllers?
Then you seem to be saying civil controllers never use the term "freecall". I'm pretty sure they use it regularly at least at the civil unit I fly from.
You know this is an area where pilot knowledge is really very poor and it strikes me that if the pilots getting the service don't know the significance of the words, why bother using them?
NS
Actually that's "Contact" for those civil reading
What the man told us was something along the lines of:
No contact between the controllers: "freecall"
Details passed but not a formal handover: "continue with"
Radar handover: "contact"
Is that correct, for military controllers?
Then you seem to be saying civil controllers never use the term "freecall". I'm pretty sure they use it regularly at least at the civil unit I fly from.
You know this is an area where pilot knowledge is really very poor and it strikes me that if the pilots getting the service don't know the significance of the words, why bother using them?
NS
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NorthSouth - Civil phraseology:
Freecall - your details have not been passed to the other unit
Contact - details have been passed to the other unit and they're expecting your call.
Freecall - your details have not been passed to the other unit
Contact - details have been passed to the other unit and they're expecting your call.
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Contact = a radar or silent handover has taken place.
Freecall = the next agency will know cock all about you.
Continue = details have been passed to the next unit but no radar handover has taken place.
Freecall = the next agency will know cock all about you.
Continue = details have been passed to the next unit but no radar handover has taken place.
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Do LATCC Mill actually have a strip with a FPL route on it when dealing with Civvy traffic. Used to deal with them on a regular basis on the east caost and they often didn't have a clue if I asked for a short cut to a another waypoint for weather avoidance for example. They also used to try and give us airway joining clearance for a airway that was not open!!
Why is the Vale of York a constant area of poor radar performance or it was when I used to fly along there on a regular basis? I can understand radar clutter, which was sometimes mentioned. Does LATCC Mil use the NATS radar heads around the UK or do they use radar feeds from Mil airfields?
One thing that I could never figure out was when under a RAS and the ATCO was busy the old chestnut of 'Due to high traffic density standard separation may not be achieved' was mentioned. If that is the case then why do you offer a RAS in the first place? Can't see the logic - wouldn't a RIS be easier for the controller?
Why is the Vale of York a constant area of poor radar performance or it was when I used to fly along there on a regular basis? I can understand radar clutter, which was sometimes mentioned. Does LATCC Mil use the NATS radar heads around the UK or do they use radar feeds from Mil airfields?
One thing that I could never figure out was when under a RAS and the ATCO was busy the old chestnut of 'Due to high traffic density standard separation may not be achieved' was mentioned. If that is the case then why do you offer a RAS in the first place? Can't see the logic - wouldn't a RIS be easier for the controller?
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R Sole, I can shed some light on the answer to your third question.
When a pilot requests RAS it is usually the case that he is IFR, IMC and not able to see and avoid other traffic. RAS will provide the pilot with advisory vectors or altitude changes which aim to acheive 5nm or 3000ft separation. In order to reach your destination expeditiously it may be the only option to route you through areas of high traffic density where the standard separation may not be acheived (hence the phrase) but the controller will still vector around and call conflicting traffic. So if you're RAS and hear that phrase, you will still be vectored and informed of all conflicting traffic it's just that you may not be separated by the standard 3000ft or 5 miles.
If you don't want the avoiding action then just ask for a RIS.
And remember even under a FIS controllers still have a duty of care over you so they should call so called 'dead ringers' my criteria is within 1mile and 500ft. But don't rely on it as not all controllers are as nice as me!!!!
However when a controller is working to capacity he is well within his rights to downgrade the type of service to RIS or even FIS f its that bad, But what will normally happen is the FIS tracks he is working will be freecalled on route, then another controller(usually approach) will start to handover the RIS tracks onto other units leaving the controller to concentrate on providing the best service possible to the RAS traffic.
So whether the controller is busy or not RAS is RAS. If he is too busy to provide RAS he should offer downgrade to RIS. High traffic density is not an excuse not to offer avoiding action or call traffic.
Hope that helps
When a pilot requests RAS it is usually the case that he is IFR, IMC and not able to see and avoid other traffic. RAS will provide the pilot with advisory vectors or altitude changes which aim to acheive 5nm or 3000ft separation. In order to reach your destination expeditiously it may be the only option to route you through areas of high traffic density where the standard separation may not be acheived (hence the phrase) but the controller will still vector around and call conflicting traffic. So if you're RAS and hear that phrase, you will still be vectored and informed of all conflicting traffic it's just that you may not be separated by the standard 3000ft or 5 miles.
If you don't want the avoiding action then just ask for a RIS.
And remember even under a FIS controllers still have a duty of care over you so they should call so called 'dead ringers' my criteria is within 1mile and 500ft. But don't rely on it as not all controllers are as nice as me!!!!
However when a controller is working to capacity he is well within his rights to downgrade the type of service to RIS or even FIS f its that bad, But what will normally happen is the FIS tracks he is working will be freecalled on route, then another controller(usually approach) will start to handover the RIS tracks onto other units leaving the controller to concentrate on providing the best service possible to the RAS traffic.
So whether the controller is busy or not RAS is RAS. If he is too busy to provide RAS he should offer downgrade to RIS. High traffic density is not an excuse not to offer avoiding action or call traffic.
Hope that helps
Last edited by Workisfun; 8th Oct 2005 at 10:00.
Having worked at London Mil in a previous life...
R Sole, they'll have an electronic flt strip with your details on it if you've filed a flt plan and addressed it to them. As for the rest of that paragraph, sorry can't comment.
London Mil uses the NATS radar heads and the Great Dunn Fell radar head does tend to produce a lot of clutter around the Teesside area.
Calling "Limited traffic information from all around due to high traffic density" an old chestnut is slightly unfair when applied to the Vale of York. A controller trying to get you through there under RAS is, on a bad day, trying to weave you through up to 40 VFR radar contacts playing between the surface and FL200, not to mention the radar clutter, which may be gliders, Leeming outbounds and stuff in the southern MDA. Mil controllers don't have the option of "just giving a RIS" if it gets a bit hard. You can only stop giving RAS under extreme conditions so if that's what you asked for, that's generally what you'll get. Some airfield controllers will try and convince you that you can't give RAS in their airspace because it's too busy, but that's rubbish. It just means that they don't understand the rules that they're applying fully.
Agree totally with norvenmonkey about handover phraseology
R Sole, they'll have an electronic flt strip with your details on it if you've filed a flt plan and addressed it to them. As for the rest of that paragraph, sorry can't comment.
London Mil uses the NATS radar heads and the Great Dunn Fell radar head does tend to produce a lot of clutter around the Teesside area.
Calling "Limited traffic information from all around due to high traffic density" an old chestnut is slightly unfair when applied to the Vale of York. A controller trying to get you through there under RAS is, on a bad day, trying to weave you through up to 40 VFR radar contacts playing between the surface and FL200, not to mention the radar clutter, which may be gliders, Leeming outbounds and stuff in the southern MDA. Mil controllers don't have the option of "just giving a RIS" if it gets a bit hard. You can only stop giving RAS under extreme conditions so if that's what you asked for, that's generally what you'll get. Some airfield controllers will try and convince you that you can't give RAS in their airspace because it's too busy, but that's rubbish. It just means that they don't understand the rules that they're applying fully.
Agree totally with norvenmonkey about handover phraseology
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Agree with Workisfun's comments... would add (although don't have a copy of JSP552 to hand so not verbatim)
that when operating in high density/high workload the Controller will give priority to separation from known traffic... i.e. separation from unknown traffic may not be applied, but in these circumstances the Controller is to ATTEMPT to pass traffic information on the unkown traffic... attempt, note!
Why offer RAS?... because you asked for it. Normally the service requested is the one provided... as pointed out by my colleagues, a Controller is entitled to downgrade service due to workload, but "high traffic density" does not necessarily equal "high workload". It just may be a lot of aircraft in one area when achieving standard separation is unlikely NO MATTER how busy the Controller is.
High traffic density is not an excuse not to offer avoiding action or call traffic.
Why offer RAS?... because you asked for it. Normally the service requested is the one provided... as pointed out by my colleagues, a Controller is entitled to downgrade service due to workload, but "high traffic density" does not necessarily equal "high workload". It just may be a lot of aircraft in one area when achieving standard separation is unlikely NO MATTER how busy the Controller is.
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Do LATCC Mill actually have a strip with a FPL route on it when dealing with Civvy traffic. Used to deal with them on a regular basis on the east caost and they often didn't have a clue if I asked for a short cut to a another waypoint for weather avoidance for example. They also used to try and give us airway joining clearance for a airway that was not open!!
As regards issuing a clearance for a closed airway, well, we don't issue them we just relay them. Sounds like the controller confused acceptance of a class G prenote by SCATCC with a clearance. No excuse there really.
