Eurocontrol and the age of the acronym?

[Superbio in Proelio]

I am getting kind of confused with all this Eurospeak!

What was wrong with the TOS, I sometimes ask myself when I am told by dispatchers about the "RAD" which I think was once the SRS.

Then there's the IFPS, FMD (CEU?), RPL and on and on. Is it really neccessary to have all these series of letters?! Certainly they make for confusion, even more so when they are changed.

Must be something to do with text messaging or beurocracy gone mad...?

[Flight Data]

Couldn't agree more, and I'm stuck in the middle of it all!

As for 'IFPS, FMD (CEU?), RPL and on and on' though, well, they are different sections that provide very different services, so a reasonable distinction is useful (RPL is certainly not made up by Eurocontrol, you'll have to blame ICAO for that one), but you'll be really glad to hear that the powers that be are changing things yet again
IFPS will become FP (FP1 Brussels; FP2 Paris); FMD (was CEU) is changing but I can't remember what to, and as for all the internal names - oh boy!

My theory is that if the names change often enough, then we'll always be at least one step ahead of the lynch mob but I think it might be something to do with ever-changing management wanting to leave their mark.....

[euskaldun]

Talking about acronyms and confusion ; what are IFPU1 and IFPU2 ? Are these separates units ? Are there 2 or 4 ? Where are they exactly ?
When I call IFPU2 I get a different welcome message ; "Bonjour IFPU2 Paris/Britanny" Do they have offices in Paris and in Britanny ? Shouldn't they call themselves IFPU2 France ?
And then to add even more to the confusion , when I call IFPU1 I get welcomed by "Hello IFPU1 Brussels/Achen" So for IFPU1 , do they have offices in Brussels and Achen ( Germany ??)
I'm a bit lost ...Please help if you can

[Flight Data]

IFPS stands for the Integrated Initial Flight Plan Service, and all IFR/GAT flights within the IFPZ (IFPS Zone - area covered by IFPS; basically the whole of Europe, full details on the Eurocontrol website). Due to this, IFPS is split into two units, one in Haren in Brussels, the other just south of Paris in Bretigny, to act as backuo for each other in the event of a critical failure of a unit. To keep both units functioning, there is a roughly equal split of messages, which is determined by aerodrome of departure. Essentially, IFPU1 (FP1; Brussels) deals with all flights departing the northern half of Europe, plus anything coming into the IFPZ from North and South America, while IFPU2 (FP2; Paris) deals with all southern European deaprtures, plus everything other than the Americas coming into the IFPZ.

Don't know who's claiming they're at Aachen or Britanny, but I suspect it may be misunderstood accents (Haren and Bretigny)

Clear as mud!

edited for spulling

[Minesapint]

The Eurocontrol website has a acronyms area - hours of fun reading!

[euskaldun]

Just had a look at the Euracronyms website and it must cost them a fortune to keep this list up to date !
Do they have a section dealing with that ? What are these people thinking about when changing all these acronyms ? Trying to justify their job or having a laugh by confusing the hell out of everyone out here ?
Another confusing thing is the TOS/RAD/SRS , whatever it is now …. I wished someone could explain me how it works .

[routechecker]

Another confusing thing is the TOS/RAD/SRS , whatever it is now …. I wished someone could explain me how it works .

With pleasure. . It will help if you'll just point out the "confusing" bits that need explaining.

rgds

[Superbio in Proelio]

Thank you routechecker and Flight Data

You are very nice men/women.

Now then, the big picture. Will you expand or contract your zone of responsability?

Could there ever get to be an FP3, FP4?

[Flight Data]

No problem; glad I can help.

Well I guess a lot of people think that IFPS is planning to take over the entire world, but the reality is the we are governed by politcal masters, so I suspect there won't be too much more expansion. However, having said that, after its primary function of providing flight data to the ETFMS (check the website acronyms page!) for flow and capacity control, the other function of IFPS is to rationalise the reception and distribution of flight data messages, and to ensure that message filers are in compliance with requirements laid down by those states employing a full IFPS service, so no real reason why IFPS can't continue to expand, or the concept be used by indivudual or groups of states. That's all pure rumour with no known substance though, so don't hold your breath or have nightmares!

FP3 and FP4 - no plans as far as I know.

[Superbio in Proelio]

Thanks again. I get the impression the guys in the two IFPS/FP
units work like hell. They must have one hell of a lot of flights to deal with according to the press releases I've seen. Some guys I've spoke to say the one's answering those phones deserve medals. What's your angle on that?

[vipero]

welcome

in the age of the "Flexible Use of Airspace"!
Next time you miss a slot or complain for a bad route, think about poor dispatchers that shall dial everyday with RCA, CIA, CHMIA, CRAMs, RADS, NERS, NARs, NATS, CFMU, IFPS, SAM, SRM, FSM, DES, DLA, RFI, ACK, REJ, MAN and the best ever: AOWIR (Airline Operators What If Rerouted).

Once someone asked me "What a slot is?" I did answer: "I don't know, but can I have an improvement?".

Cheers

[Flight Data]

Vipero - indeed I have a great deal of sympathy for dispatchers and ops bods, but especially for the little guys who don't have an ops that is trained for and used to flight planning inn Europe; can you imagine trying to produce an accurate flight plan across Europe with only Jeppesen charts and the RAD document?

Having said that, a fair number of those very same ops bods have a tendency to offload what is really their responsibility onto IFPS, and then to bitch about the service 'provided'. IFPS does routing assistance as a favour, not as a mandate, which is why the level of accustomed service can decline a bit when thigns go nipples north.
Also, think about what things would be like without Flexible Use of Airspace, and IFPS. I don't know the figures off the top of my head, but the increase in capacity within European airspace has been substantial; only to be matched by an equivalent increase in the number of flights operating in that same airspace.....

SiP - Generally things run relatively calmly, as we have a substantial iron brain that processes the large majority of messages fully automatically; roughly 86% of 30,000 flights per day in FP1 at the moment. When things do go wrong for whatever reason, then generally the IFPS staff get on with things to the best of their ability.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think IFPS is perfect, nor is the service fully consistent with regard manual processing by the staff, but it's one helluva lot better than what went before (I know - I worked in Heathrow FBU), plus it provides ATC with much better quality data on flights coming their way.

By the way Vipero, NATS is not one of ours - you'll have to point that one at the UK

[vipero]

Dear Flight Data

Don't get me wrong. I have maximum respect for the people working at IFPS and CFMU, especially those at helpdesk! My post was directed to pilots, actually.
I know many of us out here using the magic sentence in section 18 "IFPS REROUTE ACCEPTED", or just call saying "can u tell me how to get there?". Sometimes, but just sometimes, it is because of frustration in continuing receiving REJ over REJ over REJ

Anyway I did remember the old days, when we all (at least here in Italy) were spending hours trying to get an answer from local Flow Management about slots... Now the answers arrive in seconds, many transactions do not require a phone call and hopefully, some day, we would file a fpl thru the net.

The only thing I'd like to see is the people at Eurocontrol, the ones that have power I mean , trying to make a flight plan "flexible" compliant, using our tools
I do hope the new human/machine interface will solve our problems.

Take care

[euskaldun]

Hello "routechecker" ,

Thanks for trying to help me out by explaining the TOS/RAD/SRS ...
First of all what's its name now and what does this stands for ?
I have seen the document once or twice but hasn't got one myself . Where can I get it ? How do I know I have the same vesion as people in IFPFS ?
As far as I can remember from the document I saw , we can only find portions of routes that are not allowed to be used or that are compulsary . If I have to check every portion of my flight against this document , it will take me ages to file a PFL and we don' t really have time to do so . Why can't we simply file our FPL's with no route and IFPS people find one for us ? After all that is their job isn't it ?

Thanks for your time .

PS : by the way where do you get your infos from ? Are you a reliable source that I can quote ?
Maybe "Flight Data" can answer my questions as well as it sounds like you are also very familiar with Eurocontrol

[Flight Data]

It started as TOS (Traffic Orentation Scheme), then became SRS (Standard Routing Scheme), before becoming RAD (Route Availability Document), and you'll all be really pleased to know that the RAD is co-ordinated by an ex-flight ops bod rather than ATC. It's chaned so many times due to its evolution over the years, and the various names were intended to reflect the role it was designed to fill. It's all available here:

http://www.cfmu.eurocontrol.int/rad/index.htm

There is a brief explanation of what it is there, and more can be found in AIPs. If that's not enough, PM me, and I'll see if I can find something more for you.

It is not, and never has been, the mandate of IFPS to find routes for airspace users. Any route assistance provided is, as I said in a previous post, done as a favour, and such help depends on several factors, one of which is how busy the IFPS staff are in trying to sort out messages that have failed automatic processing; it certainly isn't their job! There's another thread on this forum titled something like 'IFPS Reroute Accepted' (sorry, can't be bothered to go looking for it now) - I suggest you read that for a good idea of the role of IFPS in routing assistance.

As for whether routechecker and myself are reliable sources of information - rest assured, we both are. Obviously, from previous posts, we know each other, but equally obviously, I'm not going to break the anonymity involved, and to say more about both our roles in the industry would jeopardise that anonymity. For myself I have no problem in telling you that I work in Eurocontrol, but that's all you get

[routechecker]

euskaldun,

as FD has replied to most of your questions I'll just fill in on a couple more details.

How do I know I have the same vesion as people in IFPFS ?

Just make sure you have the current one. I can garantee that I have the exact same copy next to my workstation at work.

As far as I can remember from the document I saw , we can only find portions of routes that are not allowed to be used or that are compulsary . If I have to check every portion of my flight against this document , it will take me ages to file a PFL and we don' t really have time to do so .

Ah, the recurring problem. Of course I do not know what type of operation you are involved with, but from your remark I can only assume it's a small one. Major/medium operators have a backoffice with people who just come up with valid routes adapted to their carriers lines. Front line Flight Ops have a wealth of options to choose from. Then again, when European airspace goes tits up (ATC strikes come to mind), they are in as much trouble as everyone else.
-If you fly the same sectors day in, day out, there is absolutelly NO excuse for filling incorrect FPLs.
-If you occasionaly have a charter fying a new route, usually this is know well in advace by your Ops manager, so a correct routing can be sorted.
-If you are in the military, theres no hope for you (but they are geting beter )
-If you work for a Air Taxi/executive outfit then you are in a world of pain. Never know where the next flight is gonna go to and the FPL is usually needed for 5 minutes ago.

Do try to come up with a correct route. If possible run it trough the IFPUV http://www.cfmu.eurocontrol.int/chmi...sp?serv1=ifpuv .

The error messages you get there are the same ones that pop up in the IFPS consoles.
Example:
-ERROR PROF: RS: ON FORBIDDEN ROUTE:LI LEVELS:F325..F999 REF:APPENDIX 3 LEVEL CAPPING UNIT:LI 4005A BETWEEN:LIEE LIMF
If you read this error line carefuly It's kind of clear that you should check Appendix 3 of the RAD and look for the max altitude allowed between LIEE and LIMF.
If you look at it even closer, you don't even need to open the book, because the error mentions the FL band thats raising the error (F325..F999)

If you cannot get it right then give us a call and ask for help. Theres nothing as annoying as seeing the same FPL filled with the same errors again and again and again. It's almost as if we could hear the guy/girl at the other end of the SITA/AFTN line saying "FIX IT !!".

Why can't we simply file our FPL's with no route and IFPS people find one for us ?

Because the very same day that we allow you to do that, the people behind Jeppesen, SITA, LIDO, SABRE, NAVTECH and all the other names I can't remenber right now and who make money out of flight planning, are going start asking for blood. Also we don't have the man/girlpower to do it.

PS : by the way where do you get your infos from ? Are you a reliable source that I can quote ?

Well it depends what time it is. Some late nights after liberal amounts of Grey Goose have been consumed, rumor has it that my opinions become "special".
I'll lift the veil a bit higher than FD did. I'm one of the 17 active IFPS Supervisors. However some people might say that that does not make me a reliable source .

rgds