Near misses at Doncaster / Robin Hood
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Near misses at Doncaster / Robin Hood
Investigations are taking place into four near misses involving planes flying to Doncaster's Robin Hood Airport. One took place just twelve days after the airport opened.
Three of the near misses have taken place close to the airport and involved jets coming into land and light aircraft.
Two of those were within two weeks of the airport opening. In all of those the jets were taking air traffic control orders from Robin Hood.
The fourth incident took place above the skies of Derbyshire at around twenty thousand feet.
A jet heading for the airport was involved in a near miss with a military plane.
The civilian jet in that case was taking its air traffic control from Manchester.
All these incidents are now being investigated by the independent UK Airprox Board.
In a separate inquiry, Department of Transport officials are to examine cargo planes used by Ghana based Johnsons Air, which land at Robin Hood, after the airline was banned from landing in Belgium.
Three of the near misses have taken place close to the airport and involved jets coming into land and light aircraft.
Two of those were within two weeks of the airport opening. In all of those the jets were taking air traffic control orders from Robin Hood.
The fourth incident took place above the skies of Derbyshire at around twenty thousand feet.
A jet heading for the airport was involved in a near miss with a military plane.
The civilian jet in that case was taking its air traffic control from Manchester.
All these incidents are now being investigated by the independent UK Airprox Board.
In a separate inquiry, Department of Transport officials are to examine cargo planes used by Ghana based Johnsons Air, which land at Robin Hood, after the airline was banned from landing in Belgium.
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The 'light aircraft' were probably getting a radar service from Waddington LARS, whereas the commercial jets would not have had any radar direction/ RAS.
But then again it's class G airspace.
But then again it's class G airspace.
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Last Sunday I flew my dual PPL QXC in preparation for the real thing this weekend - fingers crossed. Final leg was Tatenhill to Sandtoft (my home base at the moment). Draw a direct line on the chart and I'm straight through the Doncaster ATZ (but at +2000ft of course).
On the southbound outbound from Sandtoft we had used Waddington LARS but on return were handed to Doncaster from East Midlands. It was quiet but there was still a few other R/T conversations going on that made us both alert and keeping a good lookout.
As we passed abeam the runway to the south we both commented on how unbelievable it was for GA aircraft to get so close - we were perhaps 2 or 3nm at 3000ft, especially as a 737 (I think) was holding and was warned about us. The 737 in turn was holding short for an Hercules C130 inbound from the north into Doncaster.
Less than 10nm to the north east is Sandtoft, our destination, and we left Doncaster Approach to switch back to Sandtoft - and again were given notification of the C130.
During my training I've been getting familiar with LBA and the controlled airspace. It really is incredible that Doncaster doesn't have a wider Class D around it.
On the southbound outbound from Sandtoft we had used Waddington LARS but on return were handed to Doncaster from East Midlands. It was quiet but there was still a few other R/T conversations going on that made us both alert and keeping a good lookout.
As we passed abeam the runway to the south we both commented on how unbelievable it was for GA aircraft to get so close - we were perhaps 2 or 3nm at 3000ft, especially as a 737 (I think) was holding and was warned about us. The 737 in turn was holding short for an Hercules C130 inbound from the north into Doncaster.
Less than 10nm to the north east is Sandtoft, our destination, and we left Doncaster Approach to switch back to Sandtoft - and again were given notification of the C130.
During my training I've been getting familiar with LBA and the controlled airspace. It really is incredible that Doncaster doesn't have a wider Class D around it.
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I wouldn't of thought FYY justifies class 'D' airspace there's enough of that already. EXT airport I would think is far busier and there is no airspace around there thank god. There's also gliders and a GA field near there and everyone seems to get on ok.
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One of the incidents was, I gather, a rotorhead from Sandtoft, popping up into the path of an approaching 737. it does bring into question the safety case for Doncaster.
( I mean that not in a partisan HUY supporting mode, but as a concerned member of the 'global flying club' that is Civil Commercial Aviation, we have a duty to our customers to get them from A to B in one piece if we can, it is tough enough anyway without this sort of thing).
Again, I ask, what was the Safety Case that sanctioned Operations at DSA and what was put in place to manage the light aircraft bases in the area? Pretty fundamental I think to ensure a safe playing field for all concerned, GA and Jet alike?
( I mean that not in a partisan HUY supporting mode, but as a concerned member of the 'global flying club' that is Civil Commercial Aviation, we have a duty to our customers to get them from A to B in one piece if we can, it is tough enough anyway without this sort of thing).
Again, I ask, what was the Safety Case that sanctioned Operations at DSA and what was put in place to manage the light aircraft bases in the area? Pretty fundamental I think to ensure a safe playing field for all concerned, GA and Jet alike?
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Don't worry 7006 fan I'm sure it's only a matter of time before GA has another load of Airspace to keep it away from DSA. The private aviators have enough no go zones without another and this one will hit the cross country Glider pilots hardest but I'm sure it will come in time even if all these GA airfields and gliding sites were there before DSA. Finningley had a MATZ/ATZ which wasn't too much of a problem but the huge amount of Airspace DSA will insist it needs is another matter. Rant over!
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7006 fan wrote "Again, I ask, what was the Safety Case that sanctioned Operations at DSA and what was put in place to manage the light aircraft bases in the area? Pretty fundamental I think to ensure a safe playing field for all concerned, GA and Jet alike?"
Well we all like as safe a playing filed as possible of course. Perhaps you could just elucidate on the bit about managing the light aircraft bases in the area. For those of us using class g for GA operations (please note GA not just "light aircraft") then why should we have to suffer (and suffer it always turns out to be) class D so that a few pissed up holiday makers can go in and out a couple of times a week and us poor lot on business have to put up with it? NO NO NO - no more unwarranted controlled airspace.
Well we all like as safe a playing filed as possible of course. Perhaps you could just elucidate on the bit about managing the light aircraft bases in the area. For those of us using class g for GA operations (please note GA not just "light aircraft") then why should we have to suffer (and suffer it always turns out to be) class D so that a few pissed up holiday makers can go in and out a couple of times a week and us poor lot on business have to put up with it? NO NO NO - no more unwarranted controlled airspace.
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20,000 ft wow, who was proviiding the ats. was it doncaster area centre or military. if you look on any airspace map you will find that above doncaster there is not any cas until fl245 therefore no control, the only services provided will be ras and ris.
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JohnnyRocket said that one of the incidents took place at 20000 feet above Derbyshire, and without checking a map a lot of that is CAS. Qcode, DSA is in South Yorkshire, and in any case ATC have got it really wrong if an inbound is still at FL200 at the FNY!
Not sure of the helicopter incident you are talking about, 7006. There was one where an inbound broke off the approach because, having been warned about the helicopter, he was not visual with it and was more than 1000ft above it. Heli was VFR, in contact with DSA and the inbound was on a RIS for the final approach. Only a "near miss" in the juicy speak of journo. Anything seems to qualify these days!!
Not sure of the helicopter incident you are talking about, 7006. There was one where an inbound broke off the approach because, having been warned about the helicopter, he was not visual with it and was more than 1000ft above it. Heli was VFR, in contact with DSA and the inbound was on a RIS for the final approach. Only a "near miss" in the juicy speak of journo. Anything seems to qualify these days!!
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Agree with you and the sentiments of others, given the type of operation that at Robin Hood, there should be some form of protection for PAX flights. To get this, ie a minimum of Class D airspace, each airport has to reach an apparently secret level of annual air transport movements and passenger through-put. Last time I heard it mentioned the PAX through-put was 300,000+, at the time leaving places like Exeter out in bandit country- the open FIR. Hopefully Flybe's expansion at EXT will now help them to reach the required level.
I have never seen the magic formula published for consideration of controlled airspace applications by the CAA's Directorate of Airspace Policy, when I last enquired it was indicated that I was not to reveal my source!
If Robin Hood expects to acheive at least Class D airspace, if they haven't yet started work on it, they should now. From what I have seen of another major regional airport's current attempt to extend their airspace, the process is tortuously long with the airport having to go through many processes, including consulting everyone from parish councils upwards. In Robin Hood's case they will come up against MOD, who are not noted for their genorosity on controlled airspace matters.
A conservative estimate to accomplish the objective, assuming that the magic formula PAX/flights has been acheived, 3-4 years!
Best of luck all who fly there, and the poor controllers that are trying to keep it safe.
Agree with you and the sentiments of others, given the type of operation that at Robin Hood, there should be some form of protection for PAX flights. To get this, ie a minimum of Class D airspace, each airport has to reach an apparently secret level of annual air transport movements and passenger through-put. Last time I heard it mentioned the PAX through-put was 300,000+, at the time leaving places like Exeter out in bandit country- the open FIR. Hopefully Flybe's expansion at EXT will now help them to reach the required level.
I have never seen the magic formula published for consideration of controlled airspace applications by the CAA's Directorate of Airspace Policy, when I last enquired it was indicated that I was not to reveal my source!
If Robin Hood expects to acheive at least Class D airspace, if they haven't yet started work on it, they should now. From what I have seen of another major regional airport's current attempt to extend their airspace, the process is tortuously long with the airport having to go through many processes, including consulting everyone from parish councils upwards. In Robin Hood's case they will come up against MOD, who are not noted for their genorosity on controlled airspace matters.
A conservative estimate to accomplish the objective, assuming that the magic formula PAX/flights has been acheived, 3-4 years!
Best of luck all who fly there, and the poor controllers that are trying to keep it safe.
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In todays safety concious environment you woul have thought that the CAA would automatically put some sort of controlled airspace (i.e. class D) around the airport. Unfortunately this is not the case and can take up to 2 years to implement, that is if the military do not fight it. Unfortunately there could be more serious incidents occuring before any controlled airspace is put in place, even loss of life. Hopefully not a major catastrophe. In any event I would not fly from an unprotected airport, would you?
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20,000 ft wow, who was proviiding the ats. was it doncaster area centre or military. if you look on any airspace map you will find that above doncaster there is not any cas until fl245 therefore no control,
Does qcode actually know what he's talking about I wonder?
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In todays safety concious environment you woul have thought that the CAA would automatically put some sort of controlled airspace (i.e. class D) around the airport. Unfortunately this is not the case and can take up to 2 years to implement, that is if the military do not fight it.
If Doncaster thinks it has a case for airspace, then it has to provide the justifications and consult with other airspace users as part of its case. It needs to reach an agreement with other users so that their needs are also addressed. Only then can it make an application.
The airport did not just open up overnight, it had been planned for for many years. It was mooted as far back as 2001 I think and was given the go ahead in 2003. That's more than enough time for any planner to have made all the appropriate airspace cases to other users, so that when it did open the formal case could be presented to the CAA. It could perhaps even have been presented before opening if the CAA accept predicted traffic figures as part of the submission (I do not know if they currently do).
Is it 'dangerous' in the meantime ? Not necessarily. There are millions of aircraft movements in Class G airspace every year. Yet the number of 'airprox' in Class G is very low when compared to the total number of movements. That isn't complacency, just an acceptance that there is a risk in anything we do balanced by the probability of anything happening being extremely low. The judgement call has to be made by every pilot who operates in Class G. It comes with being in command of the aeroplane and accepting the responsibilities that brings.
A major factor I see is the lack of awareness on the part of airline pilots about Class G airspace and how it is supposed to work. How many of them keep a good look out continuously (an integral part of airmanship) ? How many assume that the radar controller knows about everything and will keep them safe, and so continue with a 'heads in' operating technique ? How many apply the Rules of the Air for avoiding collisions in Class G airspace ? If the airliner is on the ILS at 2500' descending and a light aircraft is approaching from the right, it doesn't give the airliner any special rights or priority. The Rules say it is for the airliner to avoid the light aircraft. And why not ? It's Class G airspace, it's see and be seen, and it's a freedom we enjoy in the UK and is part of our heritage. If airlines can't cope with it then there are two choices. Don't operate in Class G ... or else have a robust and justifiable case for Controlled Airspace which is put to the CAA.
I am not fully aware of the traffic levels for Doncaster currently, but would be surprised if they meet a critical mass to justify a Class D Control Zone. A handful of movements every hour shouldn't disadvantage an extremely large number of GA, gliding, and military operators without good reason.
The nanny state we now unfortunately live in will no doubt argue otherwise !!!
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There are several airports in East/S East with commercial jet traffic (Humberside, Cambridge, Norwich, Southend) which have managed without Class D for years and which have active GA fields very near. Seems to me any suggestion of Class D is rather premature.
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As usual there is plenty of hype here. One factor that no one has so far mentioned is that for quite a while Doncaster did not have its own radar. It does now.
I think you will now find that there is a much better known environment than there was for the first 3 or 4 months of DSA's operational existence, and in the immediate local area there should be no more problems than BHX or STN get with light aircraft not being navigated correctly.
Sandtoft and Gamston are well aware of DSA, and are acting responsibly, and the few farm strips in the area are no problem.
I believe it would be best not to over-react, but see how things go now the radar is working.
I fully agree with the comments about Class G airspace - it is a safe environment thesedays - TCAS and generally available radar has made a huge difference. Of course if the Air Force don'e have serviceable transponders, that doesn't help!
I think you will now find that there is a much better known environment than there was for the first 3 or 4 months of DSA's operational existence, and in the immediate local area there should be no more problems than BHX or STN get with light aircraft not being navigated correctly.
Sandtoft and Gamston are well aware of DSA, and are acting responsibly, and the few farm strips in the area are no problem.
I believe it would be best not to over-react, but see how things go now the radar is working.
I fully agree with the comments about Class G airspace - it is a safe environment thesedays - TCAS and generally available radar has made a huge difference. Of course if the Air Force don'e have serviceable transponders, that doesn't help!
PPRuNe Radar wrote:-
Doesn't the ANO cover this ?
"An aircraft while landing or on final approach to land shall have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight ......... "
If the airliner is on the ILS at 2500' descending and a light aircraft is approaching from the right, it doesn't give the airliner any special rights or priority. The Rules say it is for the airliner to avoid the light aircraft. And why not ? It's Class G airspace .......
"An aircraft while landing or on final approach to land shall have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight ......... "
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Any truth in the RUMOR that a Finningley approach ATCO calmly set their headset on the console, and said something along the lines of 'bugger this for a game of soldiers, there's too much traffic in the FIR for me' and promptly departed the building?
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PPrune Radar,
1. Even partially configured at the top of an ILS, a 737 will still be doing 3nm/min. Small windscreens and high workload = difficulty in aquiring visually, light traffic.
2. When fully configured, a 737 is not very manouverable, and in fact, any requirement to deviate off a stable approach would almost certainly require a go-around. Any TCAS RA when fully configured does require an immediate go-around. There goes a tonne of fuel, now even higher workload, still with the conflicting traffic in the area.
I would suggest that airmanship would dictate that a light aircraft approaching a jet on approach to an airfield, from whichever direction, should give it some room. You will be able to see us well before we can see you.
Also TCAS is only able to provide us with a traffic RESOLUTION, if both aircraft are using mode C.
Even in the circuit at Sandtoft, Mode C helps the aircraft and radar.
Plenty of space out there, we just need to learn to share it.
1. Even partially configured at the top of an ILS, a 737 will still be doing 3nm/min. Small windscreens and high workload = difficulty in aquiring visually, light traffic.
2. When fully configured, a 737 is not very manouverable, and in fact, any requirement to deviate off a stable approach would almost certainly require a go-around. Any TCAS RA when fully configured does require an immediate go-around. There goes a tonne of fuel, now even higher workload, still with the conflicting traffic in the area.
I would suggest that airmanship would dictate that a light aircraft approaching a jet on approach to an airfield, from whichever direction, should give it some room. You will be able to see us well before we can see you.
Also TCAS is only able to provide us with a traffic RESOLUTION, if both aircraft are using mode C.
Even in the circuit at Sandtoft, Mode C helps the aircraft and radar.
Plenty of space out there, we just need to learn to share it.