Near misses at Doncaster / Robin Hood

[Riverboat]

The whole question of ATS outside controlled airspace is being discussed at the moment, and there will no doubt be a variety of views, with justification.

I am inclined to think that what we need is not more CA, but a known environment. There is plenty of space in Class G airspace, and the RAF seem to manage to make approaches into aerodromes without too many problems.

A known environment can be achieved by several means, including a mandatory radio area (like used to surround Upper Heyford years ago), by all aircraft having finctioning transponders and being obliged to switch them on, or by having a radar flight infomation service, like in France, with a promulgation that within (say) a radius of 10nm of any busy aerodrome in Class E,. F, or G, there is an obligation to call them. Or, better still, an obligation to call the AD concerned, to avoid frequency separation.

In other words, there are more ways to skin this cat than just adding more and more Class D airspace.

All ATCOs familiar with Class D, and users, know that Class D airspace usually ends up an impediment to transiting GA, even though it ideally should not. Not as often as it is, anyway.

But aircraft flying into DSA have to be protected one way or another - simple as that.

[2 sheds]

A known environment is not much good if half-a-dozen of the "known" aircraft are fannying around on the final approach track!

[WorkingHard]

off watch - I take the points you make and cannot argue. I would however suggest that not all delays to GA are because of traffic densities. There are of course occasions when atc staffing means GA does not get the service it should or is denied access because of controller workload etc etc. Now in those and many other circumstances GA "suffers" through no fault of its own making and the CAT has nothing to worry about and no cost implication. Now perhaps one might look at the possibility of a minimum service to be provided by those who want control the airspace and further more pay a "rent" on the volume of that airspace. Do you think that might result in s different level of service and a reduction in volume? You see by and large I really do believe that GA and ATC (in my experience) have an outstanding relationship and try so hard to accomodate each others needs, it is just such a pity that a very few from each side need a bit of "education"

[CAP670]

..... the RAF seem to manage to make approaches into aerodromes without too many problems.

Riverboat - that's because the majority of RAF fast-jet aircrew fly around wearing inflatable trousers and so can execute an ATC 'avaoidance action' instruction with a tad more angle of bank than a civil airliner with maybe 100+ punters (most unsecured in their seats) can in a Rate 1 turn.

Where the RAF operates 'heavy transports' of the multi-engined variety, they too have Class D controlled airspace (Brize & Lyneham).

Years ago, they even had the Honington Military Control Zone.

Then there's CAS-T (aka 'Purple Airspace') for Royal (Fixed-Wing) Flights (so clearly RAS isn't THAT acceptable...).

This has b**ger all to do with what GA, the MoD, the pilots, the controllers, the DfT or the CAA want - it's simply an issue about ensuring in so far as is practicable, the safety of the travelling public who still it appears, choose to fly and in doing so, place their trust in a safe and regulated industry.

At a notional value of approx $2.4M per life, if we do in the UK, ever suffer a midair in Class G involving a civil airliner, the only people to gain anything will be the 'no win - no fee' lawyers; and the corridors, offices and car park at CAA House will be strangely silent...

[ILS 119.5]

DSA should be protected. It is up to PEEL and the CAA to get their act together and obtain CAS. If the passengers knew the type of airspace they are flying into then they would not travel, therefore the airport and airlines would lose money, simple. But it is the old scenario, money before safety. If you think safety is expensive then wait till you have an accident. What I cannot understand is that some or most airlines cannot accept anything less than a RAS outside CAS. What if the radar controller is too busy to provide a RAS? Does this mean that the flight cannot depart? I think that the journos among you should pick up on this and highlight the safety issues. I would certainly not fly from an airport which does not have CAS.
Rgds
ILS 119.5

[NorthSouth]

ILS 119.5:

some or most airlines cannot accept anything less than a RAS outside CAS

Like who? What surprises me is there are so many that do.

I would certainly not fly from an airport which does not have CAS

So, no flights from Norwich, Humberside, Exeter, Plymouth, Newquay, Blackpool or any of the Scottish highlands and islands airports except Sumburgh? I suppose it just depends where you live.

NS

[M609]

I'm amazed that the UK retains an airspace system that most comparable nations binned in the 70s.........

......you don't want to be compared to some African nations, or do you?

[skyman1]

Near miss over Doncaster at 20,000ft

In the fullness of time I think you'll discover that the "near miss over Doncaster" actually occurred over East Midlands in class A airspace, involving a Doncaster inbound which was involved in an incident with a military jet on QRA. The airspace around Doncaster has attracted more than its share of incidents - this was not one of them.