What Service?
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Toppam
How could you suggest I had disappeared? Just haven't had a chance to check back for the last 24 hours!
In starting this thread, I wanted to find out whether what happened was considered normal by those involved.
Thank you all for getting involved in such a grown-up way, I did not expect the volume of information and it has certainly opened my eyes about the way in which the civvies do business (as did the original incident).
I do not want to go through all the points raised, as you all seem to have been doing quite nicely, but the most recent posts deserve a response to complete the picture.
Talla Radar. Thank you for confirming you were the controller - it obviously adds weight to your and other posts from your colleagues. I think you are right to point to the MDAs leading people to expect that the mil aircraft will not operate elsewhere, but they still need to transit from places like Coningsby and Leeming to the 613 complex. Mostly F3s want to do this at ML, but Hawks prefer higher (bringing them into confliction with the UARs) and the Typhoon wants to go higher still (normally over the top of most civvy traffic!). Also, the South MDAs get booked up by the Americans forcing Brit Mil aircraft into the Borders.
Sorry Balix, but I think there needs to be a rethink on the status of traffic on UARs if it descends. I have no problem keeping clear, but I don't think it is unreasonable to expect a call.
The data block thing is interesting. I can confirm that the ASACS does not have a readout on the tube of the destination as described by Ayrprox. The other thing that Ayrprox mentioned was about us calling you about height blocks, then not getting anywhere near you. We do not choose what height block to offer the F3s, they declare it and we simply pass it on. I am told it is necessary to declare a block of SL to FL350 to force the Navs not to cheat when they are looking for the targets! I caution against expecting our fighters not to use the full block now that the mighty Typhoon is in town!
As it is a voting day, anyone want to suggest whether I leave this thread up? Or should I bin it?
BA
How could you suggest I had disappeared? Just haven't had a chance to check back for the last 24 hours!
In starting this thread, I wanted to find out whether what happened was considered normal by those involved.
Thank you all for getting involved in such a grown-up way, I did not expect the volume of information and it has certainly opened my eyes about the way in which the civvies do business (as did the original incident).
I do not want to go through all the points raised, as you all seem to have been doing quite nicely, but the most recent posts deserve a response to complete the picture.
Talla Radar. Thank you for confirming you were the controller - it obviously adds weight to your and other posts from your colleagues. I think you are right to point to the MDAs leading people to expect that the mil aircraft will not operate elsewhere, but they still need to transit from places like Coningsby and Leeming to the 613 complex. Mostly F3s want to do this at ML, but Hawks prefer higher (bringing them into confliction with the UARs) and the Typhoon wants to go higher still (normally over the top of most civvy traffic!). Also, the South MDAs get booked up by the Americans forcing Brit Mil aircraft into the Borders.
Sorry Balix, but I think there needs to be a rethink on the status of traffic on UARs if it descends. I have no problem keeping clear, but I don't think it is unreasonable to expect a call.
The data block thing is interesting. I can confirm that the ASACS does not have a readout on the tube of the destination as described by Ayrprox. The other thing that Ayrprox mentioned was about us calling you about height blocks, then not getting anywhere near you. We do not choose what height block to offer the F3s, they declare it and we simply pass it on. I am told it is necessary to declare a block of SL to FL350 to force the Navs not to cheat when they are looking for the targets! I caution against expecting our fighters not to use the full block now that the mighty Typhoon is in town!
As it is a voting day, anyone want to suggest whether I leave this thread up? Or should I bin it?
BA
Join Date: Sep 2001
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I know its another part of the world but we have "air patrol's" here where mirages go out at FL300 and then turn off their transponders and then come back and turn them back on, and whilst by the book it is the military's responsibility to separate as a civil controller we still do all we can to avoid the military traffic we see on the radar. Sometimes it's hard not knowing the intentions of the mirage but still we avoid the aircraft and certainly would never knowingly descend the aircraft through the radar observed position of the military aircraft. Dunno if this is relevant but thats my 2 cents worth.
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As many have said so far: The military and civil outlook/modus operandi are fundamentally different. But consider this:
The Mil may be working a handful of tracks in various places and doing various things, and this brings its own challenges. However, we civvie boys and girls may be moving upwards of 40 aircraft an hour through our sectors, confined (in the case of the North Sea) to UARs which in total are only a maximum of 30nm wide (where three run together) and may only be 10nm wide. Outwith these UARs are the various MDAs and so on already mentioned, and that is the place for the Mil to do their stuff. For us to be able to move the volume of traffic in the relatively narrow area which constitutes on route, we need to be able to do what we need to accommodate flight profiles or separation tools without worrying about what the military traffic which is operating in the remaining few thousand square miles of the North Sea might be about to do.
It is therefore not unreasonable to expect the Mil either to ring up and check intentions or (preferably) remain out of the way in plan. To ASSUME that traffic at a certain level will stay there when you have no information as to its type or destination is asking for trouble, and to suggest we should double check all descents in en-route Class B or CAS for unknown miltary traffic, is a little naive.
Having said that, and to answer the original question, I would always check the radar screen and monitor the progress of ANY traffic, military or otherwise, which might affect my traffic. In the situation described, I would expect the military to take the necessary action to avoid my traffic, either vertically or laterally, once it started to descend.
This is just the same as us having to ask/beg/persuade the Mil to let us go off route across the North Sea at 1700 on a Friday when the only military track is a Tornado at FL 220 off Teesside. We don't go there (at least not deliberately) without asking, so nor should you when we are on route!
The Mil may be working a handful of tracks in various places and doing various things, and this brings its own challenges. However, we civvie boys and girls may be moving upwards of 40 aircraft an hour through our sectors, confined (in the case of the North Sea) to UARs which in total are only a maximum of 30nm wide (where three run together) and may only be 10nm wide. Outwith these UARs are the various MDAs and so on already mentioned, and that is the place for the Mil to do their stuff. For us to be able to move the volume of traffic in the relatively narrow area which constitutes on route, we need to be able to do what we need to accommodate flight profiles or separation tools without worrying about what the military traffic which is operating in the remaining few thousand square miles of the North Sea might be about to do.
It is therefore not unreasonable to expect the Mil either to ring up and check intentions or (preferably) remain out of the way in plan. To ASSUME that traffic at a certain level will stay there when you have no information as to its type or destination is asking for trouble, and to suggest we should double check all descents in en-route Class B or CAS for unknown miltary traffic, is a little naive.
Having said that, and to answer the original question, I would always check the radar screen and monitor the progress of ANY traffic, military or otherwise, which might affect my traffic. In the situation described, I would expect the military to take the necessary action to avoid my traffic, either vertically or laterally, once it started to descend.
This is just the same as us having to ask/beg/persuade the Mil to let us go off route across the North Sea at 1700 on a Friday when the only military track is a Tornado at FL 220 off Teesside. We don't go there (at least not deliberately) without asking, so nor should you when we are on route!
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As for traffic flying on UARs it is the responsibility of the MILITARY controllers to initiate coordination, so they should get out of the way if traffic descends.
Luckily in Scottish Airspace, we do not have to beg anyone to go off route when the MDAs etc are cold, and then, as Talla Radar said, it is up to us to initiate coordination.
Luckily in Scottish Airspace, we do not have to beg anyone to go off route when the MDAs etc are cold, and then, as Talla Radar said, it is up to us to initiate coordination.
I'm Just A Lawnmower
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Sorry Balix, but I think there needs to be a rethink on the status of traffic on UARs if it descends. I have no problem keeping clear, but I don't think it is unreasonable to expect a call.
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I think education by way of unit visits is key to ensuring future harmony amongst all concerned here.
I know ASACS controllers are warned of the folly of assumption and are instructed never to do so. They are also taught to use the limited flight plan data at their disposal and make judgements accordingly. If traffic is approaching a landmass then extra caution is to be exercised wrt its intentions, especially if no information is available on it.
When civil sectors request coordination it has to be routed through the Fighter Marshall who is essentially the PBX, hence the delay. Direct numbers to the respective controllers are available. ASACS Controllers know they are the bottom of the food chain when it comes to coordination, which may go some way to explain why so many requests are made to civil against air defence manouervring traffic.
It has been known for some of the ASACS assistants to be somewhat overzealous when requesting traffic information (this may clarify the 'what Radar Service?' issue). Controllers are taught to request the coordination if they are concerned enough to need the traffic information.
What's needed now are the visits.
Rgds to all.
I know ASACS controllers are warned of the folly of assumption and are instructed never to do so. They are also taught to use the limited flight plan data at their disposal and make judgements accordingly. If traffic is approaching a landmass then extra caution is to be exercised wrt its intentions, especially if no information is available on it.
When civil sectors request coordination it has to be routed through the Fighter Marshall who is essentially the PBX, hence the delay. Direct numbers to the respective controllers are available. ASACS Controllers know they are the bottom of the food chain when it comes to coordination, which may go some way to explain why so many requests are made to civil against air defence manouervring traffic.
It has been known for some of the ASACS assistants to be somewhat overzealous when requesting traffic information (this may clarify the 'what Radar Service?' issue). Controllers are taught to request the coordination if they are concerned enough to need the traffic information.
What's needed now are the visits.
Rgds to all.
