Runway incursion consequence ?
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Runway incursion consequence ?
If I made a mistake and applied power after being told to taxi into position and hold what consequences can I expect. That’s what happened to me and I was ordered by tower to park and go home. Tower has no authority to order me to stop flying but knowing that I made a mistake a complied with their unusual order thinking its better to go home then have them call FAA. But what really could be the consequence of such a mistake ?
Can anyone answer ?
Can anyone answer ?
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In US,
Well, this is what happened.
I have been flying for four years and accumulated 800 hours of flight time.
What happened was unusual and caught me off guard.
I was holding short of runway when clearance from tower came in.
As clearance was delivered informing me to taxi I applied power and at that precise moment my engine started to spatter and choke. Immediately my attention was diverted to engine instead of rest of the clearance and I did not hear it in it's entirety. Being too comfortable and routine like I assumed what was not there. I thought he said " taxi to runway 30, clear for take off " instead he said " taxi into position and hold". As soon as I applied power he saw me rolling and yelled at me to stop. I complied and stop but he was really upset.
He said " That's it for you today, park and go home !!!" I was so shocked to he said and what I did that it didn't even cross my mind that he steps out of boundaries. So I went home. Lesson for all of us is to never apply power or mingle with controls during clearance and of course if you not 100% sure what tower said, confirm !!!
Well, this is what happened.
I have been flying for four years and accumulated 800 hours of flight time.
What happened was unusual and caught me off guard.
I was holding short of runway when clearance from tower came in.
As clearance was delivered informing me to taxi I applied power and at that precise moment my engine started to spatter and choke. Immediately my attention was diverted to engine instead of rest of the clearance and I did not hear it in it's entirety. Being too comfortable and routine like I assumed what was not there. I thought he said " taxi to runway 30, clear for take off " instead he said " taxi into position and hold". As soon as I applied power he saw me rolling and yelled at me to stop. I complied and stop but he was really upset.
He said " That's it for you today, park and go home !!!" I was so shocked to he said and what I did that it didn't even cross my mind that he steps out of boundaries. So I went home. Lesson for all of us is to never apply power or mingle with controls during clearance and of course if you not 100% sure what tower said, confirm !!!
Bottums Up
tomgil
Firstly, we all make mistakes. Hopefully we all learn from them.
Having just come from this thread on the Dunnunda forum, which has in recent post covered the need, or not, for accurate and concise readback of proscribed ATC instructions, your post is a classic example of the need.
Firstly, we all make mistakes. Hopefully we all learn from them.
Having just come from this thread on the Dunnunda forum, which has in recent post covered the need, or not, for accurate and concise readback of proscribed ATC instructions, your post is a classic example of the need.
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What type of aircraft were you flying and how long was the runway on which you were told to line up and wait?
While the ATC person may have overstepped their boundary slightly, perhaps thinking of the human factor element, it is a good idea not to fly after such a shock....more time spent contemplating the mistake and not enought time on the task at hand..........driving home on a busy highway is probably not the best suggestion either........best to chill inj the lounge for a while and perhaps replace the flight with a visit to ATC.
Regards,
DFC
While the ATC person may have overstepped their boundary slightly, perhaps thinking of the human factor element, it is a good idea not to fly after such a shock....more time spent contemplating the mistake and not enought time on the task at hand..........driving home on a busy highway is probably not the best suggestion either........best to chill inj the lounge for a while and perhaps replace the flight with a visit to ATC.
Regards,
DFC
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yeah that was an overstep of bounds, however, it also may not be the first time that you say what you were thinking and didn't stop transmitting when you should have <sigh>...
regards
Scott
regards
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First of all, if you haven't done so already, then go to this site:
http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/
Fill out and submit a NASA ASRS form.
A. It's good practice
B. If anything were to come of the incident, filling out the NASA form may keep you from suffering a penalty.
I've seen lots of folks "hear" a clearance that was not issued. Always read back what you thought you heard, and give the controller a chance to correct the mistake.
http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/
Fill out and submit a NASA ASRS form.
A. It's good practice
B. If anything were to come of the incident, filling out the NASA form may keep you from suffering a penalty.
I've seen lots of folks "hear" a clearance that was not issued. Always read back what you thought you heard, and give the controller a chance to correct the mistake.
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Tomgil,
Like Scott stated the controller probably didn't mean to say what he said over the radio, plus he doesn't have the authority to tell you to park it and go home, even though at times we may wish that we had the authority.
The important key is to never assume, when in doubt always ask questions. I've heard rumors that the FAA would like to do away with taxi into position and hold clearances.
Like someone suggested fill out a NASA ASRS form and mail it in, in fact every pilot should have several blank forms in their flight bags just in case something occurs.
Mike
Like Scott stated the controller probably didn't mean to say what he said over the radio, plus he doesn't have the authority to tell you to park it and go home, even though at times we may wish that we had the authority.
The important key is to never assume, when in doubt always ask questions. I've heard rumors that the FAA would like to do away with taxi into position and hold clearances.
Like someone suggested fill out a NASA ASRS form and mail it in, in fact every pilot should have several blank forms in their flight bags just in case something occurs.
Mike
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Thank you for great advice you guys offer, however, I need some clarification. I was told by no one else then FAA representative that tower can only advise based upon known conditions and restrictions. But it makes no sense. If I cross hold short line without such clearance, I can have serious consequences. So this is not an advice but order. I have to comply to tower request or face the music. So could you explain what is a tower advice and tower order. And if mistake was made what's the consequence ?
Is it controler discretion to let someone get away without handing FAA phone number or is there specific and clear law that guides them. Also what can one expect from FAA as a consequence for such a infringment?
Is it controler discretion to let someone get away without handing FAA phone number or is there specific and clear law that guides them. Also what can one expect from FAA as a consequence for such a infringment?
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Sorry about the length (I was just saying that to somebody…). Contains a bit of a rant as well…
First, file the ASRS report. This is exactly the sort of thing one sees in ASRS reports all the time. For instance, here’s a Cherokee driver telling his story in one report (and I’m sorry, but the traditional format for these things is ALL CAPS. I just cut and pasted)…
IT WAS DUSK TURNING TO NIGHT. THERE WAS LIGHT RAIN, AND THE WIND WAS GUSTING TO 28 KTS AND VARIABLE. I WAS ON A TRAINING FLT. I CALLED UP TWR AND APPARENTLY THEY TOLD ME TO POSITION AND HOLD. I APPARENTLY READ THIS BACK, BUT PROCEEDED TO TAKEOFF. THUS, TAKING OFF WITHOUT A CLRNC. I BELIEVE THIS EVENT WAS A RESULT OF HUMAN ERROR. I WAS PREOCCUPIED WITH THE WIND AND KEEPING THE CORRECT CORRECTION IN. ALSO, I WAS EXPECTING A CLRNC FOR TAKEOFF SINCE I DID NOT SEE ANYONE AHEAD OF ME. THUS, WHEN I READ BACK THE INSTRUCTIONS FROM ATC, I DID NOT REALLY PROCESS THE INFO. IN ORDER TO PREVENT THIS, IT NEEDS TO BE STRESSED THAT IN TIME OF EXTRA CONDITIONS (EX, WX/WINDS) YOU STILL NEED TO PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO THINGS THAT ARE DONE IN EVERY FLT. THIS WAS A RESULT OF MY ERROR AND WAS COMPLETELY UNINTENTIONAL.
Here’s a short one from an Airbus crew. Obviously not the same problem you had, but just included as a reminder that, “there but for the grace of God go I…”
TAXIING FOR TKOF, RWY 31 AT LGA. CREW THOUGHT THAT CLRNC HAD BEEN RECEIVED TO POSITION AND HOLD. ACFT TAXIED ONTO RWY AND LNDG ACFT HAD TO GAR.
This sort of stuff happens more often than anyone would like, but usually involves taxiing onto the runway when instructed to hold short, rather than taking-off when instructed to hold in position.
Second, please understand that I don’t work for FAA enforcement, so take this with a grain of salt. I believe that the penalty could be nothing at all, a warning letter (which should purge itself from your record in two years) or up to a 30 to 90 day suspension. In that range, I’d lean toward thinking it would be nothing at all or no more than a warning letter. But again, grain of salt… This assumes that anything at all happens. It may not have been reported, or it may have been reported but no action taken. Finally, it may be reported and you may get a call from the FAA which involves no more than a simple chat about what happened. It all depends. Also remember the “constructive attitude” the FAA is always talking about. Above everything else, file the ASRS. Assuming it was as innocent an incident as you describe, filing the form should at least mitigate the penalty.
Third, I’d be thinking carefully about the engine “sputtering and choking” part of the story. Yes, you want to be honest and open. However you do not want to introduce things into the investigation that were not already there. Again, I don’t have much info to work with here, but my first thought when I read your narrative was, “if the engine was sputtering and choking, why were you taking-off?” While you probably DO have a very good explanation for all of this, I’d think twice about adding to the list of stuff I had to explain. That’s just me though.
Fourth, I can understand why you’d follow an ATC instruction to park it and go home—I mean, it IS an ATC instruction, right? However, it was nonsense. The controller is in no position to tell you to park it and go home. I’m a little conflicted on a response to this though. My first thought is, pull that tape and make a stink about it. Still, you may want to let sleeping dogs lie… If you ask for a copy of the tape of the incident, somebody is going to listen to it as they make your copy. That might initiate enforcement action against you, whereas by just leaving it alone the whole thing might have blown over. On the other hand, if you ask for a copy of the tape because you want to fully understand what happened might also show constructive attitude.
In any case, I don’t like the position that this controller put you in. You certainly don’t want to get into an argument on the air, and at the time you were walking on eggshells because of the deviation. I’ve been sitting here thinking about this. Even with all the time I had to think about it, the best response I could come up with is not incredibly stellar:
Him: Taxi to parking and go home.
You: I’d like to taxi back to the runway for takeoff.
What he says at that point helps you understand what the heck he was thinking. If he says “taxi to the runway” you know he didn’t mean to key the mic. If he says “I said taxi to parking,” then you know it’s a losing battle today.
Finally, in my career (which started more than 20 years ago) I’ve had probably two aircraft takeoff when told to hold in position. I’ve had many more than that taxi onto the runway for God-knows-what reason. The thing is, it’s really not that hard to sort out the pilots who make a good faith mistake like all of us do, from those who really don’t have a clue. You can even see it in the ASRS reports. There’s a clear difference between “Sorry. I misunderstood,” and “that hold-short line needs to be repainted. You can’t even see it. And it was snowing. And the sun was in my eyes.” As a controller I’ve escalated no more than three of these kinds of things for enforcement action (none of them were the ones where the pilot started the takeoff roll after being instructed to hold in position). All of the ones I sent up for enforcement were pilots who were clearly a danger to themselves and others, and all of them got at least 180 day suspensions. I’m supposed to escalate all of them. I don’t. Don’t see the point, especially when it messes with the career of somebody who just learned a very valuable lesson.
Sorry about the rant. I hate this kind of cr@p coming from my fellow controllers (however the advice you've gotten from controllers on this forum is excellent). Final question: am I to understand that this was a contract (non-FAA) tower?
File the report.
Dave
First, file the ASRS report. This is exactly the sort of thing one sees in ASRS reports all the time. For instance, here’s a Cherokee driver telling his story in one report (and I’m sorry, but the traditional format for these things is ALL CAPS. I just cut and pasted)…
IT WAS DUSK TURNING TO NIGHT. THERE WAS LIGHT RAIN, AND THE WIND WAS GUSTING TO 28 KTS AND VARIABLE. I WAS ON A TRAINING FLT. I CALLED UP TWR AND APPARENTLY THEY TOLD ME TO POSITION AND HOLD. I APPARENTLY READ THIS BACK, BUT PROCEEDED TO TAKEOFF. THUS, TAKING OFF WITHOUT A CLRNC. I BELIEVE THIS EVENT WAS A RESULT OF HUMAN ERROR. I WAS PREOCCUPIED WITH THE WIND AND KEEPING THE CORRECT CORRECTION IN. ALSO, I WAS EXPECTING A CLRNC FOR TAKEOFF SINCE I DID NOT SEE ANYONE AHEAD OF ME. THUS, WHEN I READ BACK THE INSTRUCTIONS FROM ATC, I DID NOT REALLY PROCESS THE INFO. IN ORDER TO PREVENT THIS, IT NEEDS TO BE STRESSED THAT IN TIME OF EXTRA CONDITIONS (EX, WX/WINDS) YOU STILL NEED TO PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO THINGS THAT ARE DONE IN EVERY FLT. THIS WAS A RESULT OF MY ERROR AND WAS COMPLETELY UNINTENTIONAL.
Here’s a short one from an Airbus crew. Obviously not the same problem you had, but just included as a reminder that, “there but for the grace of God go I…”
TAXIING FOR TKOF, RWY 31 AT LGA. CREW THOUGHT THAT CLRNC HAD BEEN RECEIVED TO POSITION AND HOLD. ACFT TAXIED ONTO RWY AND LNDG ACFT HAD TO GAR.
This sort of stuff happens more often than anyone would like, but usually involves taxiing onto the runway when instructed to hold short, rather than taking-off when instructed to hold in position.
Second, please understand that I don’t work for FAA enforcement, so take this with a grain of salt. I believe that the penalty could be nothing at all, a warning letter (which should purge itself from your record in two years) or up to a 30 to 90 day suspension. In that range, I’d lean toward thinking it would be nothing at all or no more than a warning letter. But again, grain of salt… This assumes that anything at all happens. It may not have been reported, or it may have been reported but no action taken. Finally, it may be reported and you may get a call from the FAA which involves no more than a simple chat about what happened. It all depends. Also remember the “constructive attitude” the FAA is always talking about. Above everything else, file the ASRS. Assuming it was as innocent an incident as you describe, filing the form should at least mitigate the penalty.
Third, I’d be thinking carefully about the engine “sputtering and choking” part of the story. Yes, you want to be honest and open. However you do not want to introduce things into the investigation that were not already there. Again, I don’t have much info to work with here, but my first thought when I read your narrative was, “if the engine was sputtering and choking, why were you taking-off?” While you probably DO have a very good explanation for all of this, I’d think twice about adding to the list of stuff I had to explain. That’s just me though.
Fourth, I can understand why you’d follow an ATC instruction to park it and go home—I mean, it IS an ATC instruction, right? However, it was nonsense. The controller is in no position to tell you to park it and go home. I’m a little conflicted on a response to this though. My first thought is, pull that tape and make a stink about it. Still, you may want to let sleeping dogs lie… If you ask for a copy of the tape of the incident, somebody is going to listen to it as they make your copy. That might initiate enforcement action against you, whereas by just leaving it alone the whole thing might have blown over. On the other hand, if you ask for a copy of the tape because you want to fully understand what happened might also show constructive attitude.
In any case, I don’t like the position that this controller put you in. You certainly don’t want to get into an argument on the air, and at the time you were walking on eggshells because of the deviation. I’ve been sitting here thinking about this. Even with all the time I had to think about it, the best response I could come up with is not incredibly stellar:
Him: Taxi to parking and go home.
You: I’d like to taxi back to the runway for takeoff.
What he says at that point helps you understand what the heck he was thinking. If he says “taxi to the runway” you know he didn’t mean to key the mic. If he says “I said taxi to parking,” then you know it’s a losing battle today.
Finally, in my career (which started more than 20 years ago) I’ve had probably two aircraft takeoff when told to hold in position. I’ve had many more than that taxi onto the runway for God-knows-what reason. The thing is, it’s really not that hard to sort out the pilots who make a good faith mistake like all of us do, from those who really don’t have a clue. You can even see it in the ASRS reports. There’s a clear difference between “Sorry. I misunderstood,” and “that hold-short line needs to be repainted. You can’t even see it. And it was snowing. And the sun was in my eyes.” As a controller I’ve escalated no more than three of these kinds of things for enforcement action (none of them were the ones where the pilot started the takeoff roll after being instructed to hold in position). All of the ones I sent up for enforcement were pilots who were clearly a danger to themselves and others, and all of them got at least 180 day suspensions. I’m supposed to escalate all of them. I don’t. Don’t see the point, especially when it messes with the career of somebody who just learned a very valuable lesson.
Sorry about the rant. I hate this kind of cr@p coming from my fellow controllers (however the advice you've gotten from controllers on this forum is excellent). Final question: am I to understand that this was a contract (non-FAA) tower?
File the report.
Dave
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Hey Dave !
Thank you much, much much for such a exhosting explenation.
I read it three times already and it clear things up. Reason for which I was inquiring about that is simple fact that I fly a lot and often hear other pilots get in troble with tower. It always made me wonder what happens to them. If tower took some legal action against them. Now that it happened to me I came to conclusion its time to know. To answer your questions why I was taking off when engin spatterd is simple fact of mechanics. Sometimes when you accelerate from idle to full power carb can choke up. That's why you pay close attension to see if its going to smooth out at higher rpms or not and if not you abort take off.
When it comes to your last question about tower, I do not know if its a contract tower but my assumption is not since its a big airport. But what do I know about towers !?
Still I don't know how it all works !
FAA told me that tower can only advise based upon known condistions and restrictions, but if they only advise then anyone could just ignor it and do whatever. So if tower only advises and I don't comply where is that legal action coming from.
Sorry for being so blunt and persistent !
Darius
Thank you much, much much for such a exhosting explenation.
I read it three times already and it clear things up. Reason for which I was inquiring about that is simple fact that I fly a lot and often hear other pilots get in troble with tower. It always made me wonder what happens to them. If tower took some legal action against them. Now that it happened to me I came to conclusion its time to know. To answer your questions why I was taking off when engin spatterd is simple fact of mechanics. Sometimes when you accelerate from idle to full power carb can choke up. That's why you pay close attension to see if its going to smooth out at higher rpms or not and if not you abort take off.
When it comes to your last question about tower, I do not know if its a contract tower but my assumption is not since its a big airport. But what do I know about towers !?
Still I don't know how it all works !
FAA told me that tower can only advise based upon known condistions and restrictions, but if they only advise then anyone could just ignor it and do whatever. So if tower only advises and I don't comply where is that legal action coming from.
Sorry for being so blunt and persistent !
Darius
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Not uncommon
There are a number of flying schools at my local airport and it is not uncommon for controllers to deny a touch and go, and instead tell a pilot in the circuit "You are cleared to LAND," if that person is causing trouble.
This would apply to an aircraft with an unreadable or intermittant radio, a pilot who repeatedly missed calls, disregarded instructions, or cut off their traffic. I've witnessed a pilot who took off without a clearance for a local flight being told to return for landing. The controllers don't want an accident and sometimes the best way for them to prevent one is to remove a problem pilot from their very busy airspace.
Such an order is usually followed up by a call to the school (the controllers know all the local school aircraft) so the instructor can talk to the student. We instructors rather prefer this method to them initiating CADOR reports that have to be formally investigated.
This would apply to an aircraft with an unreadable or intermittant radio, a pilot who repeatedly missed calls, disregarded instructions, or cut off their traffic. I've witnessed a pilot who took off without a clearance for a local flight being told to return for landing. The controllers don't want an accident and sometimes the best way for them to prevent one is to remove a problem pilot from their very busy airspace.
Such an order is usually followed up by a call to the school (the controllers know all the local school aircraft) so the instructor can talk to the student. We instructors rather prefer this method to them initiating CADOR reports that have to be formally investigated.
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Very true. I have had occasion to do it myself for the very reasons you mention... "unable touch-and-go. Make full stop only. Cleared to land." That will often provide time to sort out what's going on.
However, "park it and go home" still seems a bit of a leap. And I've got to say that when I've had folks take off without a takeoff clearance, it hasn't occurred to me to tell them to return to the airport and land. Sure I'll make a stink right away. If the airplane is local, I may then do some follow-up when they come back (land line for instance). If the airplane is not local, then my reaction very much depends on the circumstances. I'll certainly say something at the time, but if it seems sorted at that point, I'll probably let it go.
As for me filing the formal report... They're easy to do. In fact, I can probably get away with just calling somebody I know at flight standards and he'll take it from there (listening to the tapes, etc). So, the reason I hesitate to file a report is not because it is more work for me, but rather, because I've seen a lot of overkill in my day. Like I said before, why mess with somebody's career when it is clear that he or she understands what happened and is very unlikely to do it again? Being able to turn the dogs on the guy doesn't mean you SHOULD turn the dogs on the guy. Take a look around for crying out loud. You could fill your day writing violations. But instead of doing that, you set a threshold and only write things that exceed that threshold. It's like the police in my town... they could easily write tickets for one mile per hour over the speed limit, or not using your blinker for the prescribed distance before a turn, but they don't. They'd have no time for anything else.
Now, what were we talking about?
Dave
However, "park it and go home" still seems a bit of a leap. And I've got to say that when I've had folks take off without a takeoff clearance, it hasn't occurred to me to tell them to return to the airport and land. Sure I'll make a stink right away. If the airplane is local, I may then do some follow-up when they come back (land line for instance). If the airplane is not local, then my reaction very much depends on the circumstances. I'll certainly say something at the time, but if it seems sorted at that point, I'll probably let it go.
As for me filing the formal report... They're easy to do. In fact, I can probably get away with just calling somebody I know at flight standards and he'll take it from there (listening to the tapes, etc). So, the reason I hesitate to file a report is not because it is more work for me, but rather, because I've seen a lot of overkill in my day. Like I said before, why mess with somebody's career when it is clear that he or she understands what happened and is very unlikely to do it again? Being able to turn the dogs on the guy doesn't mean you SHOULD turn the dogs on the guy. Take a look around for crying out loud. You could fill your day writing violations. But instead of doing that, you set a threshold and only write things that exceed that threshold. It's like the police in my town... they could easily write tickets for one mile per hour over the speed limit, or not using your blinker for the prescribed distance before a turn, but they don't. They'd have no time for anything else.
Now, what were we talking about?
Dave
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Sometimes it's better to go park up somewhere quiet and think through what just happened. Better that than still be thinking about it when you are meant to be concentrating on flying.
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I couldn't agree more. I would rather 'tell' the pilot off after the flight. Or if they are just visiting, have a stern word, but follow it up with a comment about keeping them and others safe. Then tell them to go and enjoy a cuppa and relax.
It all comes down to circumstances and seriousness of situation and that wonderful thing called descretion.
It all comes down to circumstances and seriousness of situation and that wonderful thing called descretion.
