Manch. transfer to Scottish
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Gotta say something....
Guys
your all bleating on about how maddening it is to have to move north.
Here's a thought - why do all trainees have to move south?
To get into this job - some of us have had to move our families south to a more expensive area - for less money etc.
If your moving north you'll sell your house - make a killing and more than likely be able to afford a bigger nicer house in some of the more affluent areas in ayrshire.
If you don't like that use the money to put your kids into Private school to keep them away from all the local ruffians etc.
The company is to blame not the people of Scotland - so give it a rest and stop whinging about how hard you are done by.
Shermanator
I believe that the Scottish educational qualification in teaching is acceptable in England (my ex is a teacher [its also good for USA/ Canada etc] ) and the law degree is also the same it's just that the law itself is different - bit like Area and Tower ratings (both ATC but slightly different)
Rant over!
your all bleating on about how maddening it is to have to move north.
Here's a thought - why do all trainees have to move south?
To get into this job - some of us have had to move our families south to a more expensive area - for less money etc.
If your moving north you'll sell your house - make a killing and more than likely be able to afford a bigger nicer house in some of the more affluent areas in ayrshire.
If you don't like that use the money to put your kids into Private school to keep them away from all the local ruffians etc.
The company is to blame not the people of Scotland - so give it a rest and stop whinging about how hard you are done by.
Shermanator
I believe that the Scottish educational qualification in teaching is acceptable in England (my ex is a teacher [its also good for USA/ Canada etc] ) and the law degree is also the same it's just that the law itself is different - bit like Area and Tower ratings (both ATC but slightly different)
Rant over!
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just for tired-flyboy.......
not all trainees end up down south and by no means do the majority give up better paid jobs to do this one, and even those that do run the risk of not even making it out of the college so always know the risks involved in applying for this job.
the other topics have already been covered in previous threads but to point it out again for , it actually costs the same and in a high portion of cases more money to buy a similar house in the more affluent areas of ayreshire (and remember that it's offers over in scotland and on premium properties this often runs to an extra 20%), and before you bleat on about the expensive hampshire house prices, if you visit the land registry site for average house prices, yes there is a differance but any extra is more than addequately covered by the band 5 pay scales.
With regard to schooling, looking on the 'up my street' web site as advocated by management within 30 miles of prestwick only one public school had results over 50% although there was 1 private school that managed to reach 75%,(5 or more gcse's at grades a-c)
also i believe the problem regarding teachers and lawyers is that the english qualification is not suitable for Scotland and not the other way round. rant over(again)
oh and p.s. i have never mentioned that there has ever been an issue with scottish people, it has always been about the companyand this mishandled issue.
not all trainees end up down south and by no means do the majority give up better paid jobs to do this one, and even those that do run the risk of not even making it out of the college so always know the risks involved in applying for this job.
the other topics have already been covered in previous threads but to point it out again for , it actually costs the same and in a high portion of cases more money to buy a similar house in the more affluent areas of ayreshire (and remember that it's offers over in scotland and on premium properties this often runs to an extra 20%), and before you bleat on about the expensive hampshire house prices, if you visit the land registry site for average house prices, yes there is a differance but any extra is more than addequately covered by the band 5 pay scales.
With regard to schooling, looking on the 'up my street' web site as advocated by management within 30 miles of prestwick only one public school had results over 50% although there was 1 private school that managed to reach 75%,(5 or more gcse's at grades a-c)
also i believe the problem regarding teachers and lawyers is that the english qualification is not suitable for Scotland and not the other way round. rant over(again)
oh and p.s. i have never mentioned that there has ever been an issue with scottish people, it has always been about the companyand this mishandled issue.
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Actually - all trainees do end up down south - the place is called the College of ATC and its in a little place called Bournemouth (the only NATS college if i'm correct) so yes all trainees do have to move south.
After the college is a different matter - but the premise is the same.
Ah the risks of the job mobile grade....
I stand corrected on the schooling and for that i apologise, but that in mind - somebody mentioned that it doesn't matter if your kid is english, welsh, irish or whatever...kids get bullied and that is a sad fact of life.
you may not have mentioned the problem with Scots, but it has been a subliminal dig running through this entire thread!
Lets agree to disagree.....fair dinkum
After the college is a different matter - but the premise is the same.
Ah the risks of the job mobile grade....
I stand corrected on the schooling and for that i apologise, but that in mind - somebody mentioned that it doesn't matter if your kid is english, welsh, irish or whatever...kids get bullied and that is a sad fact of life.
you may not have mentioned the problem with Scots, but it has been a subliminal dig running through this entire thread!
Lets agree to disagree.....fair dinkum
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whinging and ranting and bleating
Think the boy dangerous has covered the more salient points in the qualification problem, it may well be the case, Tired Fly Boy, that a scottish teaching or legal qualification works in England, but not the other way around, which is kind of the point.
Not much point in harping on about having to move your families south for less money to get into the job, you must have been well aware that you were going to earn less when you took the job, that the college was in Bournemouth, and lots of people get sent to NERC.
I have no axe to grind with Scotland or Scottish people, I like the place and am a big fan of Ally McCoist and thought Cracker was quite good. We all hold the Fatcats at the top responsible for the mishandling, and would love to see the CTC get relocated to Prestwick too, strange how that was never an option.
And to add to the fun, apparently we're taking another sector (no.7) off LACC next year. If we had regular enough flights we could fly down on our days off and wash all their cars too, and tuck them into bed after a hard afternoon shift.
I like being band 4 now, its good for the banter, but would love to see TC made band 6, now that would be worth watching.
Dink dank doo!
Not much point in harping on about having to move your families south for less money to get into the job, you must have been well aware that you were going to earn less when you took the job, that the college was in Bournemouth, and lots of people get sent to NERC.
I have no axe to grind with Scotland or Scottish people, I like the place and am a big fan of Ally McCoist and thought Cracker was quite good. We all hold the Fatcats at the top responsible for the mishandling, and would love to see the CTC get relocated to Prestwick too, strange how that was never an option.
And to add to the fun, apparently we're taking another sector (no.7) off LACC next year. If we had regular enough flights we could fly down on our days off and wash all their cars too, and tuck them into bed after a hard afternoon shift.
I like being band 4 now, its good for the banter, but would love to see TC made band 6, now that would be worth watching.
Dink dank doo!
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trying
When i've saved enough hard earned wedge, i'll come and hunt you down, am thinking of doing an ex-NATS employee tour of canadia. Could take a long time at this rate....
All the best for Christmas, old pal
All the best for Christmas, old pal
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I believe that either General Patton or General Curtis Le May who said quote " In the dictionary you will find the word sympathy between s**t and syphilis. Clearly this is Mr Alstoms new role model.
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Ok Peeps,
This actually happened within the last 28 days....A [very well] Qualified ATSA3 at Manch applies for "similar" job at SCATCC.....
No Interview........Appeals........Then gets one, Flight to Glasgow, Hire car and Hotel [in the Prestwick area] Did he get the job?
From what he said [not rumour, fact The "Opportunities" of an ATSA job are [a] ACPO {if lucky} [b] nil
Still want to go north?
watp,iktch
This actually happened within the last 28 days....A [very well] Qualified ATSA3 at Manch applies for "similar" job at SCATCC.....
No Interview........Appeals........Then gets one, Flight to Glasgow, Hire car and Hotel [in the Prestwick area] Did he get the job?
From what he said [not rumour, fact The "Opportunities" of an ATSA job are [a] ACPO {if lucky} [b] nil
Still want to go north?
watp,iktch
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I can beat that. A number of years ago I applied for a post at Manchester. I attended the interview, got a grilling, received a letter of rejection with a postmark timed before my interview. It is not unique.
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Just thought I would post my 2p's worth. From reading this thread and countless others before it, the most obvious thing that sticks out is the sheer rigidity (spelling? 
) and narrow mindedness of NATS management. Did they seriously think that if they told 120+ staff that themselves and all their families would have to uproot and move to Prestwick, the staff would all just go like lemmings without a murmur of dissatisfaction?
By the same token however, all this bleating on about being moved to another country is stretching it a bit far in my humble opinion. The last time I checked we were part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain (England, Scotland & Wales) and Northern Ireland. ie we're all part of the same place. Certainly my passport is a British one not an English one. Likewise my wife's is a British passport not a Scottish one. Yes a couple of things are done a bit differently north of the border. The law is a bit different for all the english solicitors out there. But is a conversion course not out of the question? GCSEs and A-Levels have a different name and to be honest judging by the way the English school system is going, I think I will prefer my kids to do Standard Grades and Highers anyway. They also have (heaven forbid!!) different pictures on their banknotes!! What would have happened if everyone who is currently at Manchester had been posted to Prestwick to begin with instead? Would they have stamped their feet and refused to have gone then? Unfortunately the nature of the job means that theoretically you can be moved around wherever and whenever the company sees fit (mobile grade and all that) whether you guys like it or not......hate to play at devils advocate but we all signed the piece of paper when we signed up. I wonder how many of you refused to sign that before you joined NATS? I'd take a guess at none......
Having said all that, to all the Swanwick people with little or no sympathy with your Manchester COLLEAGUES, you guys have had it extremely easy by comparison. Don't try and kid anyone that if the shoe was on the other foot you lot would happily go 250 miles north. We all know you wouldn't. And yes we all know you had to move from west drayton to swanwick, a distance of what? 80miles give or take? I bet a healthy proportion (by healthy I would say 25-30%) of you didn't have to move house, have spouses and partners move jobs, move kids from school etc etc. Certainly not the 100% of staff who are affected by Manchester's move to Prestwick..........
Basically to sum up, NATS management are playing within the rules. However, they are doing NOTHING for employer/employee relations at all. And although Manchester are certainly being isolated by the rest of their ATCO brethren around NATSworld, if I was an ATCO at Cardiff or Farnborough or Prestwick or wherever, I would be very concerned about the way management have narrow mindedly set about shutting down Manchester. Id be wondering 'if they can do this to the 3rd biggest unit without giving any concern or consideration to the staff involved, what could they do to my little unit if they wanted to........?'
) and narrow mindedness of NATS management. Did they seriously think that if they told 120+ staff that themselves and all their families would have to uproot and move to Prestwick, the staff would all just go like lemmings without a murmur of dissatisfaction?By the same token however, all this bleating on about being moved to another country is stretching it a bit far in my humble opinion. The last time I checked we were part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain (England, Scotland & Wales) and Northern Ireland. ie we're all part of the same place. Certainly my passport is a British one not an English one. Likewise my wife's is a British passport not a Scottish one. Yes a couple of things are done a bit differently north of the border. The law is a bit different for all the english solicitors out there. But is a conversion course not out of the question? GCSEs and A-Levels have a different name and to be honest judging by the way the English school system is going, I think I will prefer my kids to do Standard Grades and Highers anyway. They also have (heaven forbid!!) different pictures on their banknotes!! What would have happened if everyone who is currently at Manchester had been posted to Prestwick to begin with instead? Would they have stamped their feet and refused to have gone then? Unfortunately the nature of the job means that theoretically you can be moved around wherever and whenever the company sees fit (mobile grade and all that) whether you guys like it or not......hate to play at devils advocate but we all signed the piece of paper when we signed up. I wonder how many of you refused to sign that before you joined NATS? I'd take a guess at none......
Having said all that, to all the Swanwick people with little or no sympathy with your Manchester COLLEAGUES, you guys have had it extremely easy by comparison. Don't try and kid anyone that if the shoe was on the other foot you lot would happily go 250 miles north. We all know you wouldn't. And yes we all know you had to move from west drayton to swanwick, a distance of what? 80miles give or take? I bet a healthy proportion (by healthy I would say 25-30%) of you didn't have to move house, have spouses and partners move jobs, move kids from school etc etc. Certainly not the 100% of staff who are affected by Manchester's move to Prestwick..........
Basically to sum up, NATS management are playing within the rules. However, they are doing NOTHING for employer/employee relations at all. And although Manchester are certainly being isolated by the rest of their ATCO brethren around NATSworld, if I was an ATCO at Cardiff or Farnborough or Prestwick or wherever, I would be very concerned about the way management have narrow mindedly set about shutting down Manchester. Id be wondering 'if they can do this to the 3rd biggest unit without giving any concern or consideration to the staff involved, what could they do to my little unit if they wanted to........?'
Last edited by Vampy; 22nd Dec 2004 at 22:55.
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DC10RealMan
I'm not calling you a liar. Well, perhaps I am. But surely if you have proof of said incident and said date on said envelope your friendly local PROSPEKT (sic) rep would be rather interested in it?
I'd just like to thank my colleagues Shermanator and DangerousD for putting many of the points over more eloquently than I ever could whilst waving into such unsymapthetic eyes. I agree with everything you've said and our other MACC colleagues have uttered on the subject too.
Merry Christmas to you both as well, nice work
AyrTC. You sound like a really nice chap and, when I evetually get up to Scotland I'll be sure to buy you a pint and some Uncle Joe's Mintballs. I assure you it really is nothing to do with Scottish folk or our colleagues at ScOACC.
I'd just like to thank my colleagues Shermanator and DangerousD for putting many of the points over more eloquently than I ever could whilst waving into such unsymapthetic eyes. I agree with everything you've said and our other MACC colleagues have uttered on the subject too.
Merry Christmas to you both as well, nice work
AyrTC. You sound like a really nice chap and, when I evetually get up to Scotland I'll be sure to buy you a pint and some Uncle Joe's Mintballs. I assure you it really is nothing to do with Scottish folk or our colleagues at ScOACC.
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Vampy:
You are absolutely right, we wouldn`t be happy about it. However I think most people would make the best of what is a poor situation....and I don`t think the comrades at Manchester are any different.
You are absolutely right, we wouldn`t be happy about it. However I think most people would make the best of what is a poor situation....and I don`t think the comrades at Manchester are any different.
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DC10s dictionary
I thought Patton said you'll find Swanwick in the dictionary between Sh*t and syphilis.
Deepest sympathies you didn't get into MACC, would have been a real pleasure to have served with you.
We'll just do your sectors one by one for you instead, how's that sound?
Merry Christmas one and all!
How's that Band 6 promotion for TC coming along?
Deepest sympathies you didn't get into MACC, would have been a real pleasure to have served with you.
We'll just do your sectors one by one for you instead, how's that sound?
Merry Christmas one and all!
How's that Band 6 promotion for TC coming along?
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hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
posted 22nd December 2004 23:14
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"
By the same token however, all this bleating on about being moved to another country is stretching it a bit far in my humble opinion. The last time I checked we were part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain (England, Scotland & Wales) and Northern Ireland. ie we're all part of the same place. Certainly my passport is a British one not an English one. Likewise my wife's is a British passport not a Scottish one. Yes a couple of things are done a bit differently north of the border. The law is a bit different for all the english solicitors out there. But is a conversion course not out of the question? GCSEs and A-Levels have a different name and to be honest judging by the way the English school system is going, I think I will prefer my kids to do Standard Grades and Highers anyway. They also have (heaven forbid!!) different pictures on their banknotes!! What would have happened if everyone who is currently at Manchester had been posted to Prestwick to begin with instead? Would they have stamped their feet and refused to have gone then? Unfortunately the nature of the job means that theoretically you can be moved around wherever and whenever the company sees fit (mobile grade and all that) whether you guys like it or not......hate to play at devils advocate but we all signed the piece of paper when we signed up. I wonder how many of you refused to sign that before you joined NATS? I'd take a guess at none......"
Excellent post Vamp, however you then go and spoil it with what follows...............................
"Having said all that, to all the Swanwick people with little or no sympathy with your Manchester COLLEAGUES, you guys have had it extremely easy by comparison. Don't try and kid anyone that if the shoe was on the other foot you lot would happily go 250 miles north. We all know you wouldn't. And yes we all know you had to move from west drayton to swanwick, a distance of what? 80miles give or take? I bet a healthy proportion (by healthy I would say 25-30%) of you didn't have to move house, have spouses and partners move jobs, move kids from school etc etc. Certainly not the 100% of staff who are affected by Manchester's move to Prestwick.........."
ermmmmmmmmm 25-30 per cent is well out, the majority had to move house(have you ever tried going down/up the M3 during rush hour, I agree some people didnt move (person preference) but the majority did, personally my other half gave up a lot with her employer to move, with a significant reduction in pay and terms, but hey it was worth it, and you are correct, it may only be 80 miles or so, but how many people do you know were transferred to West Drayton actually wanted to be posted there in the first place..................not many..................in my experiance and despite reservations , I really do think the move "south" did not have as an adverse an effect as many would believe( and no I'm certainly not from this part of Britain!!!!). I bet that in 2-4 years time the guys/girls at MACC with reservations about moving north , would not feel as resentful as they do.
Like you said "Unfortunately the nature of the job means that theoretically you can be moved around wherever and whenever the company sees fit (mobile grade and all that) whether you guys like it or not......"
Exactly...................................
One final issue, i'm still unsure why an ATCO at Farnborough or Cardiff shold be concerned about the "shutting down Manchester" (sensationalism at its best!!!!!!!!!!!!!).
How has it been shut down??????????????
Edited many a time due spelling/grammer.........but it is nearly Christmas and errrrrrrrrrrrrmm yes I've been drinking
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"
By the same token however, all this bleating on about being moved to another country is stretching it a bit far in my humble opinion. The last time I checked we were part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain (England, Scotland & Wales) and Northern Ireland. ie we're all part of the same place. Certainly my passport is a British one not an English one. Likewise my wife's is a British passport not a Scottish one. Yes a couple of things are done a bit differently north of the border. The law is a bit different for all the english solicitors out there. But is a conversion course not out of the question? GCSEs and A-Levels have a different name and to be honest judging by the way the English school system is going, I think I will prefer my kids to do Standard Grades and Highers anyway. They also have (heaven forbid!!) different pictures on their banknotes!! What would have happened if everyone who is currently at Manchester had been posted to Prestwick to begin with instead? Would they have stamped their feet and refused to have gone then? Unfortunately the nature of the job means that theoretically you can be moved around wherever and whenever the company sees fit (mobile grade and all that) whether you guys like it or not......hate to play at devils advocate but we all signed the piece of paper when we signed up. I wonder how many of you refused to sign that before you joined NATS? I'd take a guess at none......"
Excellent post Vamp, however you then go and spoil it with what follows...............................
"Having said all that, to all the Swanwick people with little or no sympathy with your Manchester COLLEAGUES, you guys have had it extremely easy by comparison. Don't try and kid anyone that if the shoe was on the other foot you lot would happily go 250 miles north. We all know you wouldn't. And yes we all know you had to move from west drayton to swanwick, a distance of what? 80miles give or take? I bet a healthy proportion (by healthy I would say 25-30%) of you didn't have to move house, have spouses and partners move jobs, move kids from school etc etc. Certainly not the 100% of staff who are affected by Manchester's move to Prestwick.........."
ermmmmmmmmm 25-30 per cent is well out, the majority had to move house(have you ever tried going down/up the M3 during rush hour, I agree some people didnt move (person preference) but the majority did, personally my other half gave up a lot with her employer to move, with a significant reduction in pay and terms, but hey it was worth it, and you are correct, it may only be 80 miles or so, but how many people do you know were transferred to West Drayton actually wanted to be posted there in the first place..................not many..................in my experiance and despite reservations , I really do think the move "south" did not have as an adverse an effect as many would believe( and no I'm certainly not from this part of Britain!!!!). I bet that in 2-4 years time the guys/girls at MACC with reservations about moving north , would not feel as resentful as they do.
Like you said "Unfortunately the nature of the job means that theoretically you can be moved around wherever and whenever the company sees fit (mobile grade and all that) whether you guys like it or not......"
Exactly...................................
One final issue, i'm still unsure why an ATCO at Farnborough or Cardiff shold be concerned about the "shutting down Manchester" (sensationalism at its best!!!!!!!!!!!!!).
How has it been shut down??????????????
Edited many a time due spelling/grammer.........but it is nearly Christmas and errrrrrrrrrrrrmm yes I've been drinking
Last edited by ahhhb0ll0x; 24th Dec 2004 at 01:16.
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Just a quick question.
If Manch. en-route airspace is to be done by Prestwick, or some sort of resectorisation between Prestwick and Swanwick, shouldn't NATS be doing some "change management" and have a proposal up for scrutiny in which the transition of airspace from one centre to the other centre/s occurrs? This should invovle consultation with the ATC union, NATS management, etc. Has this occurred?
I'm sorry if I should obtuse, but it appears that either your union hasn't been looking after you, or that MATS management have ridden rough shod over you and you need to do something about it.
BTW, Oz approach ATCs in Perth, Adelaide, and Sydney are looking at moving to Melbourne in the next few years. If you thought Manch. and Scotland were in separate countries, moving from Perth to Melbourne might be something similar.
If Manch. en-route airspace is to be done by Prestwick, or some sort of resectorisation between Prestwick and Swanwick, shouldn't NATS be doing some "change management" and have a proposal up for scrutiny in which the transition of airspace from one centre to the other centre/s occurrs? This should invovle consultation with the ATC union, NATS management, etc. Has this occurred?
I'm sorry if I should obtuse, but it appears that either your union hasn't been looking after you, or that MATS management have ridden rough shod over you and you need to do something about it.
BTW, Oz approach ATCs in Perth, Adelaide, and Sydney are looking at moving to Melbourne in the next few years. If you thought Manch. and Scotland were in separate countries, moving from Perth to Melbourne might be something similar.
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ahhhhhb0ll0x,
I stand corrected on the figure i quoted (very much a guesstimate on my part!) however the fact is (and you have confirmed it), if a healthy percentage of people had wanted to they could have stayed where they were and commuted (and some did). NO-ONE at Manchester has that choice, WITHOUT exception.
My point about the smaller NATS units was to show what kind of a beast NATS management is. ie, if they think so little of the 3rd biggest unit, how much regard will/do they have for the smaller units? I wasn't suggesting for a second they were going to close!!
One final thing, what difference does rush hour on the M3 make to ATCOs working shifts that start at 7am (or earlier) 2pm or 10pm? As relevant as the rush hour on the M62/M56/M6 up here for the guys at Manch? Notwithstanding the fact that the centre is slap bang in the middle of one of the Top 30 busiest airports in the world with all the passengers and therefore car traffic that that entails......
Merry Christmas all! 
I stand corrected on the figure i quoted (very much a guesstimate on my part!) however the fact is (and you have confirmed it), if a healthy percentage of people had wanted to they could have stayed where they were and commuted (and some did). NO-ONE at Manchester has that choice, WITHOUT exception.
My point about the smaller NATS units was to show what kind of a beast NATS management is. ie, if they think so little of the 3rd biggest unit, how much regard will/do they have for the smaller units? I wasn't suggesting for a second they were going to close!!
One final thing, what difference does rush hour on the M3 make to ATCOs working shifts that start at 7am (or earlier) 2pm or 10pm? As relevant as the rush hour on the M62/M56/M6 up here for the guys at Manch? Notwithstanding the fact that the centre is slap bang in the middle of one of the Top 30 busiest airports in the world with all the passengers and therefore car traffic that that entails......
Merry Christmas all!