SRA - Check you minima...
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SRA - Check you minima...
Recently flew an SRA and was asked unusual questions by the controller like "Check your minima", "Check landing gear" and a few other strange things you don't hear whilst shooting the ILS. As I seem to have gone through my entire career so far without ever being taught about these approaches could someone fill me in on what ATCOs are required to ask, and indeed what responses you expect to hear from us?
Ta.
Ta.
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Strangely enough "Check your minima" and "Check Wheels" are standard phrases for SRAs, so how you've gone so long without hearing them is beyond me! Why we don't do it on other instrument approaches, I'm not too sure, but for SRAs the chat goes something like this...
On first contact - "This will be a Surveillance Radar Approach to Runway xx, terminating at x miles from touchdown, check your minima, stepdown fixes and missed approach point."
Around 8-10 miles out - "Check Wheels"
And a reminder of "Check Minimum Descent Height (or Altitude)" - for a 2nm SRA this would occur one mile before advisory heights are discontinued.
As far as responses go - we don't usually expect more than "Checked" or sometimes "Down, 3 greens".
If I can drift off slightly here with a question for ATCOs that we started to ponder a couple of weeks ago. In the Approach section of Part 1 under Missed Approach Instructions it states "An aircraft is to be advised to carry out a missed approach...(b) if it is not visible on the radar display for any significant interval during the last two miles of the approach". Depending how you interpret this does it mean between 0-2 miles from touchdown or any two miles on the approach - between 4 and 6 for example when the aircraft is at 4. I always thought it was the former, but when you read it, either could apply - what'ya think?
On first contact - "This will be a Surveillance Radar Approach to Runway xx, terminating at x miles from touchdown, check your minima, stepdown fixes and missed approach point."
Around 8-10 miles out - "Check Wheels"
And a reminder of "Check Minimum Descent Height (or Altitude)" - for a 2nm SRA this would occur one mile before advisory heights are discontinued.
As far as responses go - we don't usually expect more than "Checked" or sometimes "Down, 3 greens".
If I can drift off slightly here with a question for ATCOs that we started to ponder a couple of weeks ago. In the Approach section of Part 1 under Missed Approach Instructions it states "An aircraft is to be advised to carry out a missed approach...(b) if it is not visible on the radar display for any significant interval during the last two miles of the approach". Depending how you interpret this does it mean between 0-2 miles from touchdown or any two miles on the approach - between 4 and 6 for example when the aircraft is at 4. I always thought it was the former, but when you read it, either could apply - what'ya think?
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I don't do many SRAs nowadays, except when 23 is in use at LL. However, I do believe that the archaic "Check wheels" should be deleted. I said that once and got the reply "locked up"!
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By far the vast majority of SRA 's I do are for helicopters.The phrase "check wheels" is sorta kinda superfluous so we tend to ask for "Landing checks complete"(in case there IS a gazelle with retractable skids I suppose 
)As for going around when we used the old en4000 the cover was poor and as such I was inclined to send the aircraft around if I lost it's return for any significant portion of ANY 2 miles .Mind you seeing it for two complete miles was a luxury ! 
Agree with HD that it should be deleted although a chap from SRG once told me the reason we ask is because of the increased workload on the aircrew during the approach maybe one of you guys would care to comment?
)As for going around when we used the old en4000 the cover was poor and as such I was inclined to send the aircraft around if I lost it's return for any significant portion of ANY 2 miles .Mind you seeing it for two complete miles was a luxury ! Agree with HD that it should be deleted although a chap from SRG once told me the reason we ask is because of the increased workload on the aircrew during the approach maybe one of you guys would care to comment?
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Yes, it does make you wonder why we go through all the 'check minima', 'check wheels' buisiness for SRAs but not for any other type approach. Let's not start anyone thinking!
URno1 - I hadn't read that instruction any other way until I saw your post! But I am sure the intention is for the 0-2 bit.
URno1 - I hadn't read that instruction any other way until I saw your post! But I am sure the intention is for the 0-2 bit.
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Did 529 in my time (half-mile SRAs) between 1971 and 1986. Sad git that I am, I logged every one.
Our ACR430 had a melt down shortly after Chernob. . ., Cheenoob. . . , er, that place in Russia.
Our ACR430 had a melt down shortly after Chernob. . ., Cheenoob. . . , er, that place in Russia.
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The phrase should not ever be said.
gul, I know your base well. Some of the helos you deal with sometimes have retractable gear.
I intend to put my gear down at a time and speed that I have planned and briefed, not when you tell me to.
If it is the job of ATC to tell pilots to check gear, should they not also be telling them to check:-
props to max
carb heat
mixture fully rich
cabin secure
harness secure
packs off
go-around alt set
flaps
etc... (delete as appropriate) as well?
gul, I know your base well. Some of the helos you deal with sometimes have retractable gear.
I intend to put my gear down at a time and speed that I have planned and briefed, not when you tell me to.
If it is the job of ATC to tell pilots to check gear, should they not also be telling them to check:-
props to max
carb heat
mixture fully rich
cabin secure
harness secure
packs off
go-around alt set
flaps
etc... (delete as appropriate) as well?
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Just a note to those of you who may require to fly an SRA into a military airfield, and I can think of one in particular. The phraseology is a lot different to what you may be used to going into Luton for instance. Firstly, you may be instructed by the director to fly the approach on QFE and not on QNH, but that will depend on the pattern at the time. However, in my experience as a Sup I used to be flexible when possible, although the ATC Examiners would frown (in as severe a manner posssible) at using mixed pressures in a pattern.
On handover to the SRA controller you will be formerly idented by the controller and asked to read back the QFE/QNH set. at the 4 1/2 mile point you will hear "check gear acknowledge" we want to hear "3 greens" or "gear down". We will not give you a clearance at 4 miles, or 2 1/2 if you are continued, unless we hear those magic words. A controller would lose ahis ticket if he issued the clearance. It just is not cricket! You will also get told you are appraoching the msised apraoch point and passing missed appraoch point (where the SRA will end).
If you do have to go to a military airfield and you are unsure of the procedures, especially if there is no ILS, then a phone call to the duty Sup will give you all the help you need. Certainly when I was a Sup, and I am only out for 2 years whilst I do something different, it was always good to talk to the pilots before they came in, especially if they were in doubt.
Remember, it is good to talk!
On handover to the SRA controller you will be formerly idented by the controller and asked to read back the QFE/QNH set. at the 4 1/2 mile point you will hear "check gear acknowledge" we want to hear "3 greens" or "gear down". We will not give you a clearance at 4 miles, or 2 1/2 if you are continued, unless we hear those magic words. A controller would lose ahis ticket if he issued the clearance. It just is not cricket! You will also get told you are appraoching the msised apraoch point and passing missed appraoch point (where the SRA will end).
If you do have to go to a military airfield and you are unsure of the procedures, especially if there is no ILS, then a phone call to the duty Sup will give you all the help you need. Certainly when I was a Sup, and I am only out for 2 years whilst I do something different, it was always good to talk to the pilots before they came in, especially if they were in doubt.
Remember, it is good to talk!
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The 'Check wheels' is not supposed to be an instruction to put the wheels down but rather a prompt to make sure that you have - I guess it's timed to be at a point in the approach when most pilots would (or should) already have done it.
Most aircraft will land successfully - if not elegantly - if the props are not set to fine (although it may not go around at all elegantly), the carb heat is cold, the mixture a bit on the lean side, the pax get bruised by lose articles, the a/c is on, nothing is bugged and the flaps aren't all the way down (or whatever).
But they don't land well without wheels - trust me, I've seen the results!
Most aircraft will land successfully - if not elegantly - if the props are not set to fine (although it may not go around at all elegantly), the carb heat is cold, the mixture a bit on the lean side, the pax get bruised by lose articles, the a/c is on, nothing is bugged and the flaps aren't all the way down (or whatever).
But they don't land well without wheels - trust me, I've seen the results!
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At RAF Kuching [Borneo] in the '60s. a newbie txd..."Beverly33 6 miles, confirm 3 greens".
Loudly.."Beverly33 4 miles, CONFIRM 3 greens".
Twitchingly "Beverly33 PLEASE CONFIRM 3 GREENS!"
"Roger tower, cinfirm 3 greens. Down, Locked and 'kin welded".
Seriously though, a check u/c call NEVER goes amiss
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
Loudly.."Beverly33 4 miles, CONFIRM 3 greens".
Twitchingly "Beverly33 PLEASE CONFIRM 3 GREENS!"
"Roger tower, cinfirm 3 greens. Down, Locked and 'kin welded".
Seriously though, a check u/c call NEVER goes amiss
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
