Knee-jerking
Manchesters Most Wanted PPRuNer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 1999
Posts: 818
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Knee-jerking
I was "surprised" to see NATS are expected to find a "20% cut in support and non-operational staff" as a result of the apalling events in the US and impending doom elsewhere.
I can only truly hope that all of those non-neccessary middle managers (isn't that all of them?) who hold no validations whatsoever, are now quaking in their boots at their impending demise - albeit an extremely well paid demise in most cases. Never mind pens and paper!
At my unit though our hardly over-staffed admin and training (surprisingly) departments have been hit first - staff being cut and not replaced in the future respectively.
We are also in the midst of a pathetic "paper war" between departments (believe it or not!) and a total freeze on all "non-essential" expenses which includes important staff training courses, not-so-important team building events and even the Xmas booze fund!
I think this is most certainly "welcome to the real world" for NATS and that may not be a very very bad thing - but I can't help but feel that our esteemed new management are over-reacting to the current crises and, dare I say it, using it as a downright excuse for swinging the axe where it need not be swung - if you catch my drift.
More then one person has said to me that this all seems very convienient and well-timed - and if that is true then it's an apalling and unforgiveable abuse of an awful, sickening situation.
Fine, we have to be leaner and meaner but cuts affecting training surely cannot be accepted if they go any further. And 20% of staff is an hell of alot of folks - especially if you're one of them.
I wonder how many people can be "disposed of" via natural wasteage and voluntary redundancy. 20%? I truly truly hope so
I say to you all now, don't work in admin, don't work in ops, don't work in safety, dont work in engineering, don;t work in R&D, don't work in training don't work at an area centre and most certainly do not be an ATSA!
How long before it becomes "don't work in the ops room"?
I can only truly hope that all of those non-neccessary middle managers (isn't that all of them?) who hold no validations whatsoever, are now quaking in their boots at their impending demise - albeit an extremely well paid demise in most cases. Never mind pens and paper!
At my unit though our hardly over-staffed admin and training (surprisingly) departments have been hit first - staff being cut and not replaced in the future respectively.
We are also in the midst of a pathetic "paper war" between departments (believe it or not!) and a total freeze on all "non-essential" expenses which includes important staff training courses, not-so-important team building events and even the Xmas booze fund!
I think this is most certainly "welcome to the real world" for NATS and that may not be a very very bad thing - but I can't help but feel that our esteemed new management are over-reacting to the current crises and, dare I say it, using it as a downright excuse for swinging the axe where it need not be swung - if you catch my drift.
More then one person has said to me that this all seems very convienient and well-timed - and if that is true then it's an apalling and unforgiveable abuse of an awful, sickening situation.
Fine, we have to be leaner and meaner but cuts affecting training surely cannot be accepted if they go any further. And 20% of staff is an hell of alot of folks - especially if you're one of them.
I wonder how many people can be "disposed of" via natural wasteage and voluntary redundancy. 20%? I truly truly hope so
I say to you all now, don't work in admin, don't work in ops, don't work in safety, dont work in engineering, don;t work in R&D, don't work in training don't work at an area centre and most certainly do not be an ATSA!
How long before it becomes "don't work in the ops room"?
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Southern UK
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As I read it, TAG are 'accelerating' the planned reductions in manpower, due to a projected shortfall in income, due to fewer flights especiallly across the Atlantic. So the 20% cut was always going to happen, albeit over a longer period.
Does anyone know what happened in the meetings between TAG and the unions (which i understood took place on Thursday or Friday, though I might be wrong) or maybe that info is under embargo till the management "briefing pack" comes out early this coming week?
What is clear to me, is that the airlines are using the situation to downsize, much like the banks used the early 90's recession to implement massive job cuts
Edited for typos
[ 30 September 2001: Message edited by: Bev Bevan ]
Does anyone know what happened in the meetings between TAG and the unions (which i understood took place on Thursday or Friday, though I might be wrong) or maybe that info is under embargo till the management "briefing pack" comes out early this coming week?
What is clear to me, is that the airlines are using the situation to downsize, much like the banks used the early 90's recession to implement massive job cuts
Edited for typos
[ 30 September 2001: Message edited by: Bev Bevan ]
Manchesters Most Wanted PPRuNer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 1999
Posts: 818
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Again an example of how management are using the crises to hide their axe swinging.
We were under the impression that fam flights were canx due to security considerations but after reading the latest ANO amendment that covers such issues post Sept 11th I discover we are still permitted to jumpseat - being security cleared.
So therefore fam flights have been cancelled becuase we can't stump up the £10 - £20 or whatever it costs NATS to cover ticketing costs and the like.
I can't help but feel that the already fragile morale is taking a huuuuuuuuuge nosedive at the moment - certainly it is with my immediate colleagues. It's just the little things that annoy you innit? Like the good will of wine at Chrimbo and the liason visits and the fam flights.
Like I said earlier perhaps this is the real world or whatever but it all seems so petty and illogical to me.
160to4DME - is this at our unit this carrying on with the ATCO1? I wasn't aware of any of it like who, or when or why but I can guess who it is I think - I must be awfully out of touch - been workin' too hard
We were under the impression that fam flights were canx due to security considerations but after reading the latest ANO amendment that covers such issues post Sept 11th I discover we are still permitted to jumpseat - being security cleared.
So therefore fam flights have been cancelled becuase we can't stump up the £10 - £20 or whatever it costs NATS to cover ticketing costs and the like.
I can't help but feel that the already fragile morale is taking a huuuuuuuuuge nosedive at the moment - certainly it is with my immediate colleagues. It's just the little things that annoy you innit? Like the good will of wine at Chrimbo and the liason visits and the fam flights.
Like I said earlier perhaps this is the real world or whatever but it all seems so petty and illogical to me.
160to4DME - is this at our unit this carrying on with the ATCO1? I wasn't aware of any of it like who, or when or why but I can guess who it is I think - I must be awfully out of touch - been workin' too hard
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: GB
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Deepest darkest Inbredland....
Posts: 607
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
After reading the above link regarding the fact that the PPP with TAG may fall apart after all, what is the next step?
Do we all revert to the old status quo, or are we then parcelled up to the losing bidder(heaven forbid).
What idiot let our major customers have a good look at the business and the way we work without completing the contrct of sale, after all you can't move into a house until you complete so how can everything possibly fall apart? Or is it that HMG (the dear leader) has been slightly economical with the truth when we had been 'sold'. Either way we should be told and told now what is going on as many people rely on their income from NATS.
By the way perhaps 'senior' management should go before 'middle' management
Do we all revert to the old status quo, or are we then parcelled up to the losing bidder(heaven forbid).
What idiot let our major customers have a good look at the business and the way we work without completing the contrct of sale, after all you can't move into a house until you complete so how can everything possibly fall apart? Or is it that HMG (the dear leader) has been slightly economical with the truth when we had been 'sold'. Either way we should be told and told now what is going on as many people rely on their income from NATS.
By the way perhaps 'senior' management should go before 'middle' management
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Sunny Scotland
Posts: 206
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Am i missing something here? 
Why is it that TAG are doing all the talking and our esteemed Govt is keeping so quiet.
that Total w@??er Prescott was on tv this morning saying how if we want good public services then a "partnership" of public aND private money was the best solution.
Now with possible 20% cutbacks and delays in McNerc and very low staff morale, am I the only one who thinks that this showcase PPP has not been exactly what you'd call a roaring success so far?
Why is it that TAG are doing all the talking and our esteemed Govt is keeping so quiet.
that Total w@??er Prescott was on tv this morning saying how if we want good public services then a "partnership" of public aND private money was the best solution.
Now with possible 20% cutbacks and delays in McNerc and very low staff morale, am I the only one who thinks that this showcase PPP has not been exactly what you'd call a roaring success so far?
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Costa del Swanwick
Posts: 834
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We could always agree to the return of our free shares to TAG. In return, on the authorisation sheet there could be a box in which you,the,staff could put the name of the manager you would most like see get the heave ho. TAG could then work down the list and hopefully we'll get most of the useless ones. 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: South of MAN, North of BHX, and well clear of Stoke ;-)
Posts: 487
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Niteflite01 and 160 both make very valid points on this thread and on the thread on the Pilot's board.
If NATS ATCOs are going to sit back and let this management walkover continue, then you'll get all you deserve.
Has anyone operational in the UK noticed a difference in traffic figures ?
Quick, check the weekly figures before they get manipulated again to look like a downturn.
If we let ourselves get drawn in by all this spin, what hope can we possibly have when it comes to pay negotiations ?
Please don't tell me we all need to tighten our belts; we've been doing that every year our pay has been tied to the RPI.
It's barefaced dishonesty on behalf of management to tell us there has already been a marked drop in traffic levels.
I also heard an interesting point today with regard to the figures our management are basing their estimates on. They are using the Boeing model that traffic will reduce by 25% and will not recover for 3 years.
What management are not telling you is that the Boeing calculations include US DOMESTIC flight movements which really are showing a massive slump in loads and which will ultimately lead to a significant reduction in movements.
These movements have no impact whatsoever on the amount of traffic NATS staff will be moving this winter, next year, or ever.
It is downright dishonest of them to try and hoodwink us with misleading and false figures plucked from the Pessimist Tree to suit their own ends.
So what's it to be chaps ?? Still going to sit on that powder ??
For the sake of our profession, don't let the ill fortunes of another sector of the industry bring us to our knees also.
I implore you to make your views totally clear to your union reps and reaffirm that this time you aren't prepared to accept any compromise based on manipulated and edited statistics.
Regards
Stoney
If NATS ATCOs are going to sit back and let this management walkover continue, then you'll get all you deserve.
Has anyone operational in the UK noticed a difference in traffic figures ?
Quick, check the weekly figures before they get manipulated again to look like a downturn.
If we let ourselves get drawn in by all this spin, what hope can we possibly have when it comes to pay negotiations ?
Please don't tell me we all need to tighten our belts; we've been doing that every year our pay has been tied to the RPI.
It's barefaced dishonesty on behalf of management to tell us there has already been a marked drop in traffic levels.
I also heard an interesting point today with regard to the figures our management are basing their estimates on. They are using the Boeing model that traffic will reduce by 25% and will not recover for 3 years.
What management are not telling you is that the Boeing calculations include US DOMESTIC flight movements which really are showing a massive slump in loads and which will ultimately lead to a significant reduction in movements.
These movements have no impact whatsoever on the amount of traffic NATS staff will be moving this winter, next year, or ever.
It is downright dishonest of them to try and hoodwink us with misleading and false figures plucked from the Pessimist Tree to suit their own ends.
So what's it to be chaps ?? Still going to sit on that powder ??
For the sake of our profession, don't let the ill fortunes of another sector of the industry bring us to our knees also.
I implore you to make your views totally clear to your union reps and reaffirm that this time you aren't prepared to accept any compromise based on manipulated and edited statistics.
Regards
Stoney
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Wiltshire
Age: 57
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whilst I don't want to detract from what SBR has said above, I am not sure (having attended a "cascade" briefing today) that NATS/TAG are actually USING the Boeing figures....they were mentioned sure, but the illustrations shown were based on NATS/TAGS own projections...
However, the following were the gist of some of the statements made at the briefing:
Don't expect any annual pay rises for the next 2 or 3 years.....
Last week traffic was significantly UP!
10% of Management/support staff to go by 31/03/02 with another 10% to follow by 30/09/02....
Reductions to be done by Voluntary Retirement on existing scheme....however if there are later further rounds the scheme is likely to be changed to the staff's detriment...
Virtually all courses/postings to be stopped...
ATCO recruitment likely to be reduced from the present target of 180pa....
Looking AGAIN at ATCO training process as its considered too drawn out and not very "efficient" (Yawn, how many more times do we go through this process???)
ATSA's ... watch out...OK for now BUT a big push towards Electronic strips could spell trouble 3, 4 or 5 years hence...
No new CMS courses to start....
and I can't remember anything else!
However, the following were the gist of some of the statements made at the briefing:
Don't expect any annual pay rises for the next 2 or 3 years.....
Last week traffic was significantly UP!
10% of Management/support staff to go by 31/03/02 with another 10% to follow by 30/09/02....
Reductions to be done by Voluntary Retirement on existing scheme....however if there are later further rounds the scheme is likely to be changed to the staff's detriment...
Virtually all courses/postings to be stopped...
ATCO recruitment likely to be reduced from the present target of 180pa....
Looking AGAIN at ATCO training process as its considered too drawn out and not very "efficient" (Yawn, how many more times do we go through this process???)
ATSA's ... watch out...OK for now BUT a big push towards Electronic strips could spell trouble 3, 4 or 5 years hence...
No new CMS courses to start....
and I can't remember anything else!
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I too am simply abhorred by the AG's reactions to the horrendous attacks on the US.
..Mc Nerc is to be put on hold is it? Surely this should now be a full steam ahead project. TAG should currently be publicly focussing all of their energies on contingencies of coping with the outcome of, God forbid, a terrorist attack on a UK AC however slim the odds . NATS should really get larger with greater redundancy (not of the unployment type!)
The flying public need to be given the confidence that flying will be even safer in the future. What sort of impression will they be given by the fact that the company wholly devoted to their SAFETY is to undergo a rapid shrinking by one fifth of it's workforce?
Yes, I know it's only 'support staff' but without supports, the bridge collapses.
'Not for Profit' ...my a**
..Mc Nerc is to be put on hold is it? Surely this should now be a full steam ahead project. TAG should currently be publicly focussing all of their energies on contingencies of coping with the outcome of, God forbid, a terrorist attack on a UK AC however slim the odds . NATS should really get larger with greater redundancy (not of the unployment type!)
The flying public need to be given the confidence that flying will be even safer in the future. What sort of impression will they be given by the fact that the company wholly devoted to their SAFETY is to undergo a rapid shrinking by one fifth of it's workforce?
Yes, I know it's only 'support staff' but without supports, the bridge collapses.
'Not for Profit' ...my a**
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: GB
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Traffic UP and no pay rise for 2-3 years. Really this cannot be true? I hope there is not any industrial action as this would seriously shaft the airlines.
Stop recruitment even though large numbers retire in a short while. This is begining to sound like a private sector company.....Oh I forgot......it is now!
My bet is that the governments share in NATS increases and the airline groups decreases. Will the banks lend the money required to buy NATS from the state following Sept 11th?
Will the government write off NATS debt in order to be rid of ATC at a bargain price for the airlines? With all the problems facing the airlines, do they actually want to run it whilst putting their own house in order? Labour cannot be seen to lose face over this, what with all their public/private partnership plans in schools, hospitals etc.
Stop recruitment even though large numbers retire in a short while. This is begining to sound like a private sector company.....Oh I forgot......it is now!
My bet is that the governments share in NATS increases and the airline groups decreases. Will the banks lend the money required to buy NATS from the state following Sept 11th?
Will the government write off NATS debt in order to be rid of ATC at a bargain price for the airlines? With all the problems facing the airlines, do they actually want to run it whilst putting their own house in order? Labour cannot be seen to lose face over this, what with all their public/private partnership plans in schools, hospitals etc.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Deepest darkest Inbredland....
Posts: 607
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RANT ON
Does anyone think that this is all going to collapse into a big pile and the staff are not going to make it better this time. Goodwill only goes so far and the end of the line has been reached, Ok, so any industrial action is not really an option with all the indicators showing that the airlines are suffering, but we must do something. We can't cope with the traffic now so perhaps the next couple of years could be a breathing space, train up people so that when the traffic increases, as it surely will, then we can go with it, not as in the past few years, each boom trying to catch up and falling further and further behind.
RANT OFF
Does anyone think that this is all going to collapse into a big pile and the staff are not going to make it better this time. Goodwill only goes so far and the end of the line has been reached, Ok, so any industrial action is not really an option with all the indicators showing that the airlines are suffering, but we must do something. We can't cope with the traffic now so perhaps the next couple of years could be a breathing space, train up people so that when the traffic increases, as it surely will, then we can go with it, not as in the past few years, each boom trying to catch up and falling further and further behind.
RANT OFF
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Asgard
Posts: 488
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A colleague and I were discussing how we felt about the job now compared to only a few years ago. We agreed that what was missing these days was motivation.
Where did it go? How did we and many others lose it?
I know I have become embittered because of OCT, the inept interference by the ORO and the consequent near impossibility of having a normal working and sometimes personal life.
Add to that the dominance in the job of the bean counters....the language used in the "cascade briefing" (stupid bloody name) was testament to the fact that the inmates have taken over.
What about the rest of you? Feel the same?
Where did it go? How did we and many others lose it?
I know I have become embittered because of OCT, the inept interference by the ORO and the consequent near impossibility of having a normal working and sometimes personal life.
Add to that the dominance in the job of the bean counters....the language used in the "cascade briefing" (stupid bloody name) was testament to the fact that the inmates have taken over.
What about the rest of you? Feel the same?
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I see from the NATS accounts now published
that our esteemed Deputy Chairman, Mr.
Semple, receive a performance related payment
of £39,300 and Mr. Chisholm a mere £33,800.
Congratulations both. Perhaps they should
refund the bonus as a gesture in these "difficult times" when so many of their
managers and support staff face the axe.
I suppose IPMS will let this one slide by
too - after all, what has mere operational staff done to deserve a penny in bonus?
that our esteemed Deputy Chairman, Mr.
Semple, receive a performance related payment
of £39,300 and Mr. Chisholm a mere £33,800.
Congratulations both. Perhaps they should
refund the bonus as a gesture in these "difficult times" when so many of their
managers and support staff face the axe.
I suppose IPMS will let this one slide by
too - after all, what has mere operational staff done to deserve a penny in bonus?
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Scotland
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How sickening. Over 60% of an ATCO salary and more than an ATSA gets in a year. No doubt given for getting PPP pushed through, when we were pushing more aeroplanes through the airspace.
Oops not enough aircraft to get our bonuses.
Would they have got more if we had achieved our bonuses as well, but there again maybe they got it for being creative with statistics and how bonuses should not be paid out.
[ 02 October 2001: Message edited by: Take up the Hold ]
Oops not enough aircraft to get our bonuses.
Would they have got more if we had achieved our bonuses as well, but there again maybe they got it for being creative with statistics and how bonuses should not be paid out.
[ 02 October 2001: Message edited by: Take up the Hold ]
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Bermuda Shorts and Cessna Caravans
Posts: 242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Torpids
Are you suggesting that all NATS management are indispensable ??
And since when have managers been "operational" in the true ATC sense of the word ??
As for IPMS, it's up to US to press them, press and press again....I refer to Stoney's eloquent post on the subject and state that I agree 100%.
We have the ammunition, the arguments and all the balls in our court; for the sake of our futures, let this opportunity go by at your peril.
Are you suggesting that all NATS management are indispensable ??
And since when have managers been "operational" in the true ATC sense of the word ??
As for IPMS, it's up to US to press them, press and press again....I refer to Stoney's eloquent post on the subject and state that I agree 100%.
We have the ammunition, the arguments and all the balls in our court; for the sake of our futures, let this opportunity go by at your peril.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Certainly wasn't defending management - I think a large chunk of sarcasm was included in that one.
We have the ammunition, the arguments and all the balls.......some of us, but enough of us?
We have the ammunition, the arguments and all the balls.......some of us, but enough of us?
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: London
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Isn't this good news for operational staff ?
We cannot and will not stand for a pay freeze (particularly if traffic levels don't fall significantly) but surely action taken to strengthen the company and focus on our core business is good news.
Isn't the NATS workforce only around 30% operational ?
Walking around Latcc one certainly gets that impression. All these middle managers with good salary packages and their own parking spaces. These are the positions which devalue the ATCO/ATSA role within the company. Things will only get better for operational staff when the core (and profitable) side of the business becomes the focus of NATS.
Morale is bad. It's been getting progressiveley worse for the last five years. But isn't that the fault of the 'old' NATS and the dithering over privitisation ?
Now we are free of the mismanagement of the government. We fought damned hard to get Serco overlooked and we succeeded in getting TAG chosen as our partners.
Now the company is changing. That programme of change has been accelerated by the downturn in aviation but isn't this the first step toward a better NATS ?
As an operational ATCO I've always been very cynical of our management but I have to see this as a step in the right direction.
We cannot and will not stand for a pay freeze (particularly if traffic levels don't fall significantly) but surely action taken to strengthen the company and focus on our core business is good news.
Isn't the NATS workforce only around 30% operational ?
Walking around Latcc one certainly gets that impression. All these middle managers with good salary packages and their own parking spaces. These are the positions which devalue the ATCO/ATSA role within the company. Things will only get better for operational staff when the core (and profitable) side of the business becomes the focus of NATS.
Morale is bad. It's been getting progressiveley worse for the last five years. But isn't that the fault of the 'old' NATS and the dithering over privitisation ?
Now we are free of the mismanagement of the government. We fought damned hard to get Serco overlooked and we succeeded in getting TAG chosen as our partners.
Now the company is changing. That programme of change has been accelerated by the downturn in aviation but isn't this the first step toward a better NATS ?
As an operational ATCO I've always been very cynical of our management but I have to see this as a step in the right direction.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Fort Worth ARTCC ZFW
Posts: 1,155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It has been interesting reading the problems that TAG is just now seeing. It looks a little bit like some of the issues that NAVCanada is runnning into right now too. It kind of makes the reasons given for going private mute...
Good luck all of you...
regards
Good luck all of you...
regards
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The ethereal plane
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There are 3 groups of people who take the can and make aeroplanes fly. ATC, Pilots and Engineers. All are licenced. All are seeing their terms and conditions eroded. When was the last time any of us heard any news that IMPROVED our quality of life.
No disrespect to everyone else involved in the industry but you don't go to prison when you f**k up.
Got that off my chest. Cheers.
No disrespect to everyone else involved in the industry but you don't go to prison when you f**k up.
Got that off my chest. Cheers.