Strike?
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Out of interest, my e-mails to the MP's were in an attempt to convince them to leave well alone and keep our skies safe. I have not only written to politicians.
My comments about doing a deal with key employees is exactly what I would expect to occur, that does not mean I agree with it!
Divide and destroy, that is the way of the private sector, I would like to think that all staff will stick together if industrial action looms, but somehow I doubt it.
Anyway, buy The G******* on Thursday, if the story runs, then maybe our prayers have been answered.
[This message has been edited by OrsonCart (edited 14 February 2001).]
My comments about doing a deal with key employees is exactly what I would expect to occur, that does not mean I agree with it!
Divide and destroy, that is the way of the private sector, I would like to think that all staff will stick together if industrial action looms, but somehow I doubt it.
Anyway, buy The G******* on Thursday, if the story runs, then maybe our prayers have been answered.
[This message has been edited by OrsonCart (edited 14 February 2001).]
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Dear Identnospeed, I see from your profile that you are an ATCO on the LTMA. I am not. Unless you are suffering from extreme juniority, you very likely earn twice as much as I do. You are significantly more financially secure than I am. I don't begrudge you a penny ; you earn your money and I couldn't do what you do. I shall indeed sleep soundly knowing that you, and your colleagues, can afford to take the moral stand that I simply cannot. I've no intention of getting into a slanging match with you - just try to understand that we don't all enjoy your level of salary.If I did, I'd be next to you on the picket line !
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FJ,
Read my post properly buddy !
Like I said there ARE people who are not as financially secure as you, and I did not mean me. I meant the people who work hard (in and out of cupboards) AND will still be out of a job post-SERCO.
I know what its like working for £8000 (eight grand) a year as I did in the early 90s. It was the only job I could get after losing my previous one at the start of the recession. So please don't jump to conclusions my friend, just cos I'm an ATCO.
INS
PS. I apologise for being a little curt, but this is a bad situation we find ourselves in, and this maybe our only chance to have an impact on ALL our futures.
[This message has been edited by identnospeed (edited 14 February 2001).]
Read my post properly buddy !
Like I said there ARE people who are not as financially secure as you, and I did not mean me. I meant the people who work hard (in and out of cupboards) AND will still be out of a job post-SERCO.
I know what its like working for £8000 (eight grand) a year as I did in the early 90s. It was the only job I could get after losing my previous one at the start of the recession. So please don't jump to conclusions my friend, just cos I'm an ATCO.
INS
PS. I apologise for being a little curt, but this is a bad situation we find ourselves in, and this maybe our only chance to have an impact on ALL our futures.
[This message has been edited by identnospeed (edited 14 February 2001).]
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FJ ...i still say no on who are employed by NATS is so poor they cannot afford one days' wages ..i am an ATSA and our jobs are on the line ..as for intimidation being a factor well you deserve what you get if SERCO take over...go sell your soul to the devil mate cos thats what you are suggesting ...i actually don t believe FJ is employed by NATS ....if you are say where?
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FJ,
OK I am kind of resigned to the fact that you are just a troll but I can't help being sucked in.
RE all your statements and arguments - are you some sort of halfwit?
"I can't aford to lose a day's pay" you claim. But seeem to accept the EVIDENCE of your colleagues that if we are bought by SERCO then pay and terms and conditions (we all know safety will go) will suffer horrific damage.
How will you pay when your kids are teenagers?
Or want to go to Uni?
As for the divisive "But you work at LTMA therefore are loaded". I don't work there I work at a regional a/d. But check the pay scale and you'll find it neeed a good 10 yrs plus of seniority to make the slightest difference between ATCO2 and 3. And if you want the money you go work there. As they say put up or shut up. To attempt to criticise someones right to hold an opinion by this means is pitiful.
We have nothing to lose by striking and everything to gain. If we do not take decisive action even at this late stage we deserve everything we get (and will live to regret it).
If you really feel this way then i suggest you resign from IPMS. They are not representing your interests (which seem to be "get for me what ever you can but I will do nothing to help").
OK I am kind of resigned to the fact that you are just a troll but I can't help being sucked in.
RE all your statements and arguments - are you some sort of halfwit?
"I can't aford to lose a day's pay" you claim. But seeem to accept the EVIDENCE of your colleagues that if we are bought by SERCO then pay and terms and conditions (we all know safety will go) will suffer horrific damage.
How will you pay when your kids are teenagers?
Or want to go to Uni?
As for the divisive "But you work at LTMA therefore are loaded". I don't work there I work at a regional a/d. But check the pay scale and you'll find it neeed a good 10 yrs plus of seniority to make the slightest difference between ATCO2 and 3. And if you want the money you go work there. As they say put up or shut up. To attempt to criticise someones right to hold an opinion by this means is pitiful.
We have nothing to lose by striking and everything to gain. If we do not take decisive action even at this late stage we deserve everything we get (and will live to regret it).
If you really feel this way then i suggest you resign from IPMS. They are not representing your interests (which seem to be "get for me what ever you can but I will do nothing to help").
Guest
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FJ,
Having just read your inflammatory posts from last September, it looks like you are undertaking a serious backpedal.
In your last post on the - Its time to strike - thread, your parting shot was
"Roll on PPP!",
but now it is "just try to understand that we don't all enjoy your level of salary.If I did, I'd be next to you on the picket line !" A monumental U-turn.
I suggest you FuK off and sort out exactly what it is you want from NATS.
Regards INS
Having just read your inflammatory posts from last September, it looks like you are undertaking a serious backpedal.
In your last post on the - Its time to strike - thread, your parting shot was
"Roll on PPP!",
but now it is "just try to understand that we don't all enjoy your level of salary.If I did, I'd be next to you on the picket line !" A monumental U-turn.
I suggest you FuK off and sort out exactly what it is you want from NATS.
Regards INS
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I don't see much future in trying to stop PPP although there may be an opportunity to ensure the right style of PPP is selected. Supporting the airline bid could lead to the PPP partner being the one that's going to give you the least hassle - they have a direct and tangible interest in keeping the planes moving after all and they all are focused on safety if for no other reason than their own commercial pressures. The "We've killed less passengers than any other airline" is not the best marketing....
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Dear Identnospeed,
I think it might be you who needs to sort him(her)self out. At 10 o'clock last night you're apologising for being curt, by 10 o'clock this morning you're telling me to 'Fuk off'! Make your mind up !
As for your opinions, and those of the aptly named Intentionally Blank, I'm sure they are perfectly valid and you have every right to hold them. But are you really so arrogant that you think you must be right, and anyone who disagrees must be wrong ? I don't feel the need to abuse you, but you seem to feel entitled to abuse me. I expect that if we do end up on strike, you'll be at the front of the picket line, shouting 'scab' and throwing bricks at anyone who dares to differ from you. This forum is not the place for personal vilification of 'colleagues', even if I felt inclined to do so, so I shan't take up any more valuable space.
Identnospeed, you are the weakest link.....goodbye.
I think it might be you who needs to sort him(her)self out. At 10 o'clock last night you're apologising for being curt, by 10 o'clock this morning you're telling me to 'Fuk off'! Make your mind up !
As for your opinions, and those of the aptly named Intentionally Blank, I'm sure they are perfectly valid and you have every right to hold them. But are you really so arrogant that you think you must be right, and anyone who disagrees must be wrong ? I don't feel the need to abuse you, but you seem to feel entitled to abuse me. I expect that if we do end up on strike, you'll be at the front of the picket line, shouting 'scab' and throwing bricks at anyone who dares to differ from you. This forum is not the place for personal vilification of 'colleagues', even if I felt inclined to do so, so I shan't take up any more valuable space.
Identnospeed, you are the weakest link.....goodbye.
Guest
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Re Fatherjack's messages (or should that be "I'm all right Jack"!!). Is there any point you being in the union at all? I'm sure I don't want to lose a days/weeks salary either, but the point of being in a union is that you stick together. Does this mean if the majority vote to strike, you will still go into work? If so please leave the union now, because you are obviously misguided in your conception of what unions were created for.
Guest
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What makes you think I'm a member of the union ? How does union membership help ? Please all of you, wake up ! There is no sentimentality in business. None of the potential PPP partners are in this to give NATS employees a warm cosy feeling. They're in it for money, plain and simple. They won't give a s**t who you are, what you do, how long you've been there or what you think. They certainly won't care if you're in the union. So what if you go on strike ? When you're cold enough and hungry enough, you'll go back to work. If you don't, they'll sack you - end of chat. Don't expect any public sympathy, and don't expect pressure on the PPP partner from the government. Remember the petrol protest ? The whole country nearly ground to a halt - no ambulances in some areas, rubbish piling up, food shortages - did the government step in ? No, the protesters gave up. The effects of the petrol protest were a lot further reaching than any ATC strike. The fact is that from a business point of view, NATS has needed a kick up the @rse for years, and now it's coming. No escaping it. If you're operational ATC, you're job's probably safe. If not,start looking. If they sack me, I'll go do something else. It's not the end of the world.In the meantime, I'm certainly not going to give them the excuse.
Guest
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well now we know your views FJ....brown nose enough and you'll keep your job...suggest you crawl back into your cupboard and get sold when the axe comes.As a matter of fact it does matter which group get the contract ...2 of the bidders have said they will work with the unions ..one hasn't.I still don 't think FJ works for NATS,he's just trying to undermine the solidarity of the union.
Guest
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If this particual thread is discussing the merits and tactics of industrial action, maybe the group should simply ignore those that don't want to play and focus on the job at hand - how to be as effective as possible with the minimum loss of time and money to participants. By the way, I think that the shut down of ATC would have a greater effect than the petrol protest had, particularly given the timing of the General Election and the Easter break. Someone (named) posted a similar comment to FJ's on the nats-ppp.com board as well...I wonder...?
Guest
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Folks,
Please note that there are two Father Jacks on PPRuNe. One is Father Jack who is known to me and a decent guy. The other is the FatherJack who appears on this thread and is not personally known to me. Note the different spellings in case you get the two people mixed up
To the FatherJack on this thread. If you read most of the studies and literature on companies which are deemed by academic and business institutions to be the worlds most 'successful', you will find that they place a high value on treating their staff properly and count them as their greatest asset. They work them hard, but they also reward them and look after them. Yet your point seems to be that this is something which should not happen to NATS post PPP, to give it a kick up the backside as you put it, and screw the staff. Guess that means SERCO are not cut out to be one of the worlds top successful companies then, so why should we let them make a mess of UK ATC ??
The important thing here is that most people are prepared to make a stand, not to protect their cushy number (which is disappearing in any case because NATS actually is becoming more efficient, ask the guys at the airfields), but to protect the UK aviation industry from becoming like Railtrack. Part of that protection is the terms and conditions of the staff as well as appropriate staff and support levels to allow the continuing development of the service (capacity, controller tools, etc) and its safety measures and performance (engineering support, ATM developments and projects), both of which go some way to ensuring that safety always always comes first in everything NATS does. Strip all that out and you have a bottom line mentality, where safety is often too expensive. Where staff become divided and marginalised. Where morale and performance suffer. Where people don't go the extra mile to make things happen. See any Railtrack parallels yet ??
All that might work for refuse collection 'management' and other SERCO specialities, but for UK ATC ?? I don't think so.
For the loss of a days pay here and there I think the prize is worth the cost. I am sure that for many others, the sacrifice is also one they are willing to make. Because not only are they trying to safeguard their own future and that of their colleagues, they are trying to prevent the well respected UK ATC business from slipping into an abyss.
However, fellow PPRuNers, FatherJack is entitled to make his point and I will defend his right to do so. Well argued counter points are what this thread needs, regardless of the side of the fence, and no degeneration into name calling or schoolyard antics are needed here. Otherwise, offenders will be forced to have access only to Oz 89' threads
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PPRuNe Radar
ATC Forum Moderator
[email protected]
Please note that there are two Father Jacks on PPRuNe. One is Father Jack who is known to me and a decent guy. The other is the FatherJack who appears on this thread and is not personally known to me. Note the different spellings in case you get the two people mixed up
To the FatherJack on this thread. If you read most of the studies and literature on companies which are deemed by academic and business institutions to be the worlds most 'successful', you will find that they place a high value on treating their staff properly and count them as their greatest asset. They work them hard, but they also reward them and look after them. Yet your point seems to be that this is something which should not happen to NATS post PPP, to give it a kick up the backside as you put it, and screw the staff. Guess that means SERCO are not cut out to be one of the worlds top successful companies then, so why should we let them make a mess of UK ATC ??
The important thing here is that most people are prepared to make a stand, not to protect their cushy number (which is disappearing in any case because NATS actually is becoming more efficient, ask the guys at the airfields), but to protect the UK aviation industry from becoming like Railtrack. Part of that protection is the terms and conditions of the staff as well as appropriate staff and support levels to allow the continuing development of the service (capacity, controller tools, etc) and its safety measures and performance (engineering support, ATM developments and projects), both of which go some way to ensuring that safety always always comes first in everything NATS does. Strip all that out and you have a bottom line mentality, where safety is often too expensive. Where staff become divided and marginalised. Where morale and performance suffer. Where people don't go the extra mile to make things happen. See any Railtrack parallels yet ??
All that might work for refuse collection 'management' and other SERCO specialities, but for UK ATC ?? I don't think so.
For the loss of a days pay here and there I think the prize is worth the cost. I am sure that for many others, the sacrifice is also one they are willing to make. Because not only are they trying to safeguard their own future and that of their colleagues, they are trying to prevent the well respected UK ATC business from slipping into an abyss.
However, fellow PPRuNers, FatherJack is entitled to make his point and I will defend his right to do so. Well argued counter points are what this thread needs, regardless of the side of the fence, and no degeneration into name calling or schoolyard antics are needed here. Otherwise, offenders will be forced to have access only to Oz 89' threads
------------------
PPRuNe Radar
ATC Forum Moderator
[email protected]
Guest
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Thankyou all for your valuable comments. I have enjoyed reading ALL your posts, and wish each of you well in the future. I hope that whatever actions you may decide to take work for you, and that mine work for me. I still feel that some of you have a painful awakwening to come, and that pinning your hopes on industrial action may prove to be horribly optimistic. However, it is your right to take whatever action you see fit.
Thanks also to the moderator - I was beginning to think that free speech was not encouraged on this forum. I don't think there is anything else I can say that will make the slightest impact on this debate, so it is unlikely that you will hear from me again.
For those of you who still doubt it, I AM an employee of NATS, and have been for more than 10 years. Maybe I differ in opinion from other contributors to this forum, maybe I get up your noses. One thing I do know - there are many more who share my views. We should learn to live with each other without resorting to senseless name calling. I respect your opinions, the least you can do is tolerate mine.
Thanks also to the moderator - I was beginning to think that free speech was not encouraged on this forum. I don't think there is anything else I can say that will make the slightest impact on this debate, so it is unlikely that you will hear from me again.
For those of you who still doubt it, I AM an employee of NATS, and have been for more than 10 years. Maybe I differ in opinion from other contributors to this forum, maybe I get up your noses. One thing I do know - there are many more who share my views. We should learn to live with each other without resorting to senseless name calling. I respect your opinions, the least you can do is tolerate mine.
Guest
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Glad to see that the slanging match has been brought to an end..
I used to work in the private sector and was initially worried about the prospect of unionised negotiations, since I have always considered strike action to be an instant deadlock situation. 6 years into NATS, however, and I am sad to say that it seems that the only language they understand is of the deadlock variety. I will therefore be out on the picket line if necessary, but would hope that the 'intelligent' people who run our business and the country will come to their senses before this happens. It is of course vital that our union ensure that they as, let's face it, amateur negotiators are not steamrollered by the professional ones.
As for those who are so short-termist as to say they cannot afford to lose a few days' pay or any perceived benefits they may currently enjoy to go on strike, they should be prepared to take a little short-term pain for long-term gain. Our future under SERCO would certainly be short on benefits..
'Railtrack of the skies' is not so far fetched as it may sound. Imagine the scenario where someone comes up with a whizz-bang system for reducing the number of airpoxes. It costs £x million, however. The privatised, cost-cutting NATS might establish that it will still only prevent 50% of the airproxes that presently occur. "Too expensive, and anyway nothing has hit yet" they might say. Trouble is, the next 'airmiss' won't be a miss...
In addition, can you foresee a situation where, like the railways, the ATC provider faces penalties from the government or airlines for causing delays? I can, and look what happened at Hatfield as Railtrack couldn't/wouldn't restrict trains so they could carry out maintenance for fear of financial penalties.
Sorry to go on, I'm probably preaching to the converted anyway.. I'll start making my placard right away.
"Take off is optional, Landing is mandatory"
I used to work in the private sector and was initially worried about the prospect of unionised negotiations, since I have always considered strike action to be an instant deadlock situation. 6 years into NATS, however, and I am sad to say that it seems that the only language they understand is of the deadlock variety. I will therefore be out on the picket line if necessary, but would hope that the 'intelligent' people who run our business and the country will come to their senses before this happens. It is of course vital that our union ensure that they as, let's face it, amateur negotiators are not steamrollered by the professional ones.
As for those who are so short-termist as to say they cannot afford to lose a few days' pay or any perceived benefits they may currently enjoy to go on strike, they should be prepared to take a little short-term pain for long-term gain. Our future under SERCO would certainly be short on benefits..
'Railtrack of the skies' is not so far fetched as it may sound. Imagine the scenario where someone comes up with a whizz-bang system for reducing the number of airpoxes. It costs £x million, however. The privatised, cost-cutting NATS might establish that it will still only prevent 50% of the airproxes that presently occur. "Too expensive, and anyway nothing has hit yet" they might say. Trouble is, the next 'airmiss' won't be a miss...
In addition, can you foresee a situation where, like the railways, the ATC provider faces penalties from the government or airlines for causing delays? I can, and look what happened at Hatfield as Railtrack couldn't/wouldn't restrict trains so they could carry out maintenance for fear of financial penalties.
Sorry to go on, I'm probably preaching to the converted anyway.. I'll start making my placard right away.
"Take off is optional, Landing is mandatory"