Strike?
Guest
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Totally agree with LockedNReady, if you are an ATCO at LATCC (for example) do you really want to do 2 hours on radar on a July afternoon and then spend an hour or two on the wings, bashing strips, doing re-routes, amendments, diversions, updates and all the other stuff we do? Most ATSAs are professional and knowledgable about the airspace and traffic, leaving the ATCOs to get on with the actual ATC. If you don't appreciate the support tasks, maybe its time you started. ATSA losses will not be to ATCOs' benefit. Remember, if IPMS and PCS don't work together, we're not as strong. Divide and conquer is a classic tactic, one that SERCo are no doubt good at. Think hard.
Guest
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As a non - NATS atco, SERCO are a known quantity to me, (although I dont work for them now).
The alternative bidders are a totally unknown quantity to most people.
Can anyone list the improvements the alternative bidders would make to NATS and the system, and also how do you know that after 5 years they are not going to take the same route that some seem to think that SERCO will?
The alternative bidders are a totally unknown quantity to most people.
Can anyone list the improvements the alternative bidders would make to NATS and the system, and also how do you know that after 5 years they are not going to take the same route that some seem to think that SERCO will?
Guest
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BombBay- the facts seemingly on the table are this. The Lockheed lot are deemed out of the running leaving SERCO and the Airline Group. When the 3 groups met the unions during the first week of Jan they spelt out their intentions. The airline group confirmed that they were in it not for profit but to keep the aircraft in the air as near damn it on time. They see no point in big cut backs in operational staff if the aim is to keep delays down to a minimum. They also pledged to keep present terms and conditions in place for all staff but admitted some cutbacks would be necessary and these cutbacks would come from the present NATS surplus agreement, which in a nutshell means cutting the numbers from the top end of the age bracket. Meanwhile SERCO have said almost the opposite and who knows quite foolishly for their own chances of winning the bid. Terms and conditions will only be honoured for 6 months, so big change looms from October 1st onwards. Redundancies will be made from the cheapest option and thats last in, first out with them only obliged to pay you off with one weeks salary for each year worked. So any ATCO/ATSA out there in your 50s who think an early retirement with a few quid is around the corner can forget it. SERCO want you to work until you reach 59/60 or you call it a day voluntarily because you can take no more. You will then be replaced by new youngsters on SERCOs pittance salary scale especially for support staff.
So from what I've said who would you choose even if one is an unkown quantity??
So from what I've said who would you choose even if one is an unkown quantity??
Guest
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With regards to MACC going to NERC to form a big 'Supercentre', just imagine if you will..................................
How much money would be saved if Scotnerc wasn't built but the facility moved into NERC, which easily has the space.
I for one wouldn't put it past them
How much money would be saved if Scotnerc wasn't built but the facility moved into NERC, which easily has the space.
I for one wouldn't put it past them
Guest
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WHAT.........???
No McNerc??? Surely not.
oh, BombBay: The fact that they ARE a known quantity is enough. We are not saying that we prefer the other bidders, or any at all! I for one would see the airline group as less of a worry. That is how bad SERCo are thought of.
No McNerc??? Surely not.
oh, BombBay: The fact that they ARE a known quantity is enough. We are not saying that we prefer the other bidders, or any at all! I for one would see the airline group as less of a worry. That is how bad SERCo are thought of.
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LockedNready
"No more 14 days off for only six days leave".
Well - all I can say to that is welcome to the real world - and I'm not just talking about ATC here
Mr Chips
"Also mentioned that at SERCO units ATCOs spend their breaks doing ATSA duties - as CRATCOH says you must be "off RADAR for 30 mins after 21/2 hours" Is that true?"
Not true - CRATCOH is CRATCOH and you have a break away from position. I would have thought that any self respecting ATS Manager would enforce this anyway. You seem to have the attitude that SERCO Controllers are a bunch of Company clones who can't think for ourselves like you wonderful free spirited NATS bods - B***LS**T.
"No more 14 days off for only six days leave".
Well - all I can say to that is welcome to the real world - and I'm not just talking about ATC here
Mr Chips
"Also mentioned that at SERCO units ATCOs spend their breaks doing ATSA duties - as CRATCOH says you must be "off RADAR for 30 mins after 21/2 hours" Is that true?"
Not true - CRATCOH is CRATCOH and you have a break away from position. I would have thought that any self respecting ATS Manager would enforce this anyway. You seem to have the attitude that SERCO Controllers are a bunch of Company clones who can't think for ourselves like you wonderful free spirited NATS bods - B***LS**T.
Guest
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There are attitudes here which I also see in some of the pilot forums, between the likes of BA & Midland and the smaller operators.
There are people who are so full of their self importance that they cannot see the real issue.
1...Just because you happen to be employed by a major player in the industry does not confer upon you god like qualities, beyond the reach of lesser mortals, who because they work for a smaller company and are paid less probably go to bed each night wishing they could be like you.
2...Just because you work for a smaller company, and you get paid less, get less leave etc, what good is it going to do you to see the terms & conditions of the larger companies brought down to your level? If you end up as part of the same company through a takeover do you really want to be working the busiest sectors in the UK for the same as what you are getting now?
Even if you have no desire to leave your current unit, would it not be more beneficial to aspire to improving your company's terms & conditions upwards to acheive parity?
We are all ATCO's, NATS, SERCO, HIAL & privately run airports. Most of us could probably do each others' jobs just as well with adequate training. Ultimately what happens with PPP will affect all of us directly. Do not think that dragging down the terms & conditions of NATS ATCO's will not have a negative knock on effect across the whole UK ATC industry.
There are people who are so full of their self importance that they cannot see the real issue.
1...Just because you happen to be employed by a major player in the industry does not confer upon you god like qualities, beyond the reach of lesser mortals, who because they work for a smaller company and are paid less probably go to bed each night wishing they could be like you.
2...Just because you work for a smaller company, and you get paid less, get less leave etc, what good is it going to do you to see the terms & conditions of the larger companies brought down to your level? If you end up as part of the same company through a takeover do you really want to be working the busiest sectors in the UK for the same as what you are getting now?
Even if you have no desire to leave your current unit, would it not be more beneficial to aspire to improving your company's terms & conditions upwards to acheive parity?
We are all ATCO's, NATS, SERCO, HIAL & privately run airports. Most of us could probably do each others' jobs just as well with adequate training. Ultimately what happens with PPP will affect all of us directly. Do not think that dragging down the terms & conditions of NATS ATCO's will not have a negative knock on effect across the whole UK ATC industry.
Guest
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Chilli Monster
Remember that staff at the majority of NATS Units get"so much time off" because we are H24 and have a double night shift duty rostered in the cycle. Some of the days are sleep days .And by the way NATS ATC are in the real world
AyrTC
Remember that staff at the majority of NATS Units get"so much time off" because we are H24 and have a double night shift duty rostered in the cycle. Some of the days are sleep days .And by the way NATS ATC are in the real world
AyrTC
Guest
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Guest
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Chilli-monster, in my previous incarnation prior to becoming an ATCO, which is as real as real world can get, I used to take a week off (legit) guess what - I got the adjoining weekends/public holidays as well.
Methinks the word "schadenfreude" was made for your comments.
edited because HTML didn' work.......
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RogerOut
I Keep Mine Hidden
[This message has been edited by RogerOut (edited 11 February 2001).]
Methinks the word "schadenfreude" was made for your comments.
edited because HTML didn' work.......
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RogerOut
I Keep Mine Hidden
[This message has been edited by RogerOut (edited 11 February 2001).]
Guest
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RogerOut
I've looked at a calendar - a week plus adjoining weekends (including a bank holiday) becomes 10 from 5 days leave - 6 from 14 is taking the P*** but nice if you can get away with it
I think you miss the point somewhat. The average man in the street sees comments like 14 from 6 and he's not going to give any action the support that is required from outside the ATC community - more like he's going to think "Lucky beggars - what makes them think they're so special. Why should they get all this time off for no apparent reason."
As someone pointed out before - this should not develop into a situation of NATS v non-NATS sniping at each other. The only way that this is going to be resolved is on a question of SAFETY - that is all the man in the street is interested in. He doesn't give a stuff about pay, conditions etc because we are just seen as servants to the industry for when he and his family go on holiday - put together a case based on safety and fact, not conjecture and you'll get support from outside. Anything else such as pay and conditions and you won't get the interest because Joe Bloggs has his own problems in that respect.
I've looked at a calendar - a week plus adjoining weekends (including a bank holiday) becomes 10 from 5 days leave - 6 from 14 is taking the P*** but nice if you can get away with it
I think you miss the point somewhat. The average man in the street sees comments like 14 from 6 and he's not going to give any action the support that is required from outside the ATC community - more like he's going to think "Lucky beggars - what makes them think they're so special. Why should they get all this time off for no apparent reason."
As someone pointed out before - this should not develop into a situation of NATS v non-NATS sniping at each other. The only way that this is going to be resolved is on a question of SAFETY - that is all the man in the street is interested in. He doesn't give a stuff about pay, conditions etc because we are just seen as servants to the industry for when he and his family go on holiday - put together a case based on safety and fact, not conjecture and you'll get support from outside. Anything else such as pay and conditions and you won't get the interest because Joe Bloggs has his own problems in that respect.
Guest
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Chilli - chillout, I asked a question....
Can anyone confirm the CRATCOH rules please. Do you have to have a break, or a break away from position? It seems to me that the latter could be ATSA duties, because it is away from RADAR
No, I don't know the CRATCOH rules (for one obvious reason)but I did fancy the typist who typed up the minutes of the meetings...
Can anyone confirm the CRATCOH rules please. Do you have to have a break, or a break away from position? It seems to me that the latter could be ATSA duties, because it is away from RADAR
No, I don't know the CRATCOH rules (for one obvious reason)but I did fancy the typist who typed up the minutes of the meetings...
Guest
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Mr Chips (and anyone else interested)
SRATCOH rules and everything else you ever wanted to know about the licencing of ATC providers and ATC staff is at
http://www.srg.caa.co.uk/documents/CAP670_Iss1_Am4.pdf
It's 608 pages long and the SRATCOH bit is in part D annex C. Basically right at the end page 605 or near there.
SRATCOH rules and everything else you ever wanted to know about the licencing of ATC providers and ATC staff is at
http://www.srg.caa.co.uk/documents/CAP670_Iss1_Am4.pdf
It's 608 pages long and the SRATCOH bit is in part D annex C. Basically right at the end page 605 or near there.
Guest
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Just wanted to ask a silly question (possilbly)...
With regards to striking on one particular day, how would that work with the watch system when you bear in mind that not all the watches would have been working on that day anyway?
Would it mean that the strike would have to last more than 24 hours so we did get EVERYBODY out?
With regards to striking on one particular day, how would that work with the watch system when you bear in mind that not all the watches would have been working on that day anyway?
Would it mean that the strike would have to last more than 24 hours so we did get EVERYBODY out?