BMA bus drivers with an ATC ticket!
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BMA bus drivers with an ATC ticket!
Evening all,
This is the first time of writting but that shows my mood at a situation today.
With the Scottish TMA in full flow I had my plan for 4 inbounds to Glasgow questioned by the BMA pilot at 2100. Here begins the story.
HS125 running 30 miles ahead of a bus and E145, with other traffic joining the melee from Turnberry. speed put on all three to stream and organised hs125, 5miles, Midland bus, 5miles, E145 and all sped approriatley. High rt loading and the Midland pilot decides not only to ask the speed of aircraft around him but proceed to question why I did it and complain that he would be left"on top of someone again".
Now friendly banter and polite but proffesional RT is all part of the job and I understand frustration but there is only one piece of tarmac and delays happen. Noone was held, Noone was unduly delayed and everyone got where they wanted to be. But this kind of childish moaning is detrimental to a happy working environment and thats what makes short cuts, high speed and shorter hours in the air.
Now you might think I am being pedantic but wait, its not finished! The same Pilot (change the letters and you get what hangs between a donkeys legs!) asks Glasgow Radar to speed up! and what, make the HS125 disappear! Glasgow spoke to me and described this gentleman as a part of the body that gets wiped after use.
This is a team game, in work and with the people around and we all work hard to acheive a goal. Mr2LN, come into Scottish at some time and see what we do and I believe all controllers would like to come sit with you and understand your gripes and concerns but, not in public, not on a busy frequency and certainly not because you are 5 mins late on a route. If you can do my job, then come in a try it. We have simulators ready and willing!
Thats it for now, not feleling better but interested to see a response. For everyone there is (W)RIGHT and WRONG, what do you think??????
This is the first time of writting but that shows my mood at a situation today.
With the Scottish TMA in full flow I had my plan for 4 inbounds to Glasgow questioned by the BMA pilot at 2100. Here begins the story.
HS125 running 30 miles ahead of a bus and E145, with other traffic joining the melee from Turnberry. speed put on all three to stream and organised hs125, 5miles, Midland bus, 5miles, E145 and all sped approriatley. High rt loading and the Midland pilot decides not only to ask the speed of aircraft around him but proceed to question why I did it and complain that he would be left"on top of someone again".
Now friendly banter and polite but proffesional RT is all part of the job and I understand frustration but there is only one piece of tarmac and delays happen. Noone was held, Noone was unduly delayed and everyone got where they wanted to be. But this kind of childish moaning is detrimental to a happy working environment and thats what makes short cuts, high speed and shorter hours in the air.
Now you might think I am being pedantic but wait, its not finished! The same Pilot (change the letters and you get what hangs between a donkeys legs!) asks Glasgow Radar to speed up! and what, make the HS125 disappear! Glasgow spoke to me and described this gentleman as a part of the body that gets wiped after use.
This is a team game, in work and with the people around and we all work hard to acheive a goal. Mr2LN, come into Scottish at some time and see what we do and I believe all controllers would like to come sit with you and understand your gripes and concerns but, not in public, not on a busy frequency and certainly not because you are 5 mins late on a route. If you can do my job, then come in a try it. We have simulators ready and willing!
Thats it for now, not feleling better but interested to see a response. For everyone there is (W)RIGHT and WRONG, what do you think??????
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Have to agree with Chillin on this one,
As the EGPF radar controller during all of this, I was rather busy handling a sequence of 6 coupled with a SVFR helicopter operating on the 23 approach with a cloud base of 1800ft.
NJE a clear number 1 on the inside (28 miles to run), BMA on outside (36 miles to run) similar speeds, the BMA maybe 20kts faster passing FL100 in the descent to 70. Had 2 more arrivals via LANAK and 2 via TRN.
On first call the BMA asks if he can accelerate!! I was busy co-ordinating descent with EGPH and sorting out the helicopter against one on the ILS, I say no and the guy just gets
off for the rest of the approach, he wasn't delayed at all, got a 10 mile final for 23.
All credit to Chillin and the GLY controller for their presentation of the traffic to me ( I appreciated it guys)
It's a shame that a professional pilot would attempt to pressure me into perhaps making a rash decision and then compromising the safety of his and other aircraft under my control for the sake of landing maybe 2 minutes earlier. One of my less experienced colleagues may have attempted to get 2LN in ahead of the NJE which would not have been a good idea
If the frequency is busy then one would expect a professional pilot to realise that there is a lot of traffic in the area and we as controllers do not apply speed restrictions unless it is absolutely necessary.
The safety of YOUR AIRCRAFT and the safety of the AIRCRAFT AROUND YOU is our prime responsibility and WE WILL NOT BE PRESSURED INTO COMPROMISING IT.
Come and have a go on our simulators, you'll be made more than welcome and the perhaps you'll realise that you're not the only aircraft in the sky and just how difficult our job can be within the limited confines of the controlled airspace we deal with.
As the EGPF radar controller during all of this, I was rather busy handling a sequence of 6 coupled with a SVFR helicopter operating on the 23 approach with a cloud base of 1800ft.
NJE a clear number 1 on the inside (28 miles to run), BMA on outside (36 miles to run) similar speeds, the BMA maybe 20kts faster passing FL100 in the descent to 70. Had 2 more arrivals via LANAK and 2 via TRN.
On first call the BMA asks if he can accelerate!! I was busy co-ordinating descent with EGPH and sorting out the helicopter against one on the ILS, I say no and the guy just gets
off for the rest of the approach, he wasn't delayed at all, got a 10 mile final for 23.All credit to Chillin and the GLY controller for their presentation of the traffic to me ( I appreciated it guys)
It's a shame that a professional pilot would attempt to pressure me into perhaps making a rash decision and then compromising the safety of his and other aircraft under my control for the sake of landing maybe 2 minutes earlier. One of my less experienced colleagues may have attempted to get 2LN in ahead of the NJE which would not have been a good idea
If the frequency is busy then one would expect a professional pilot to realise that there is a lot of traffic in the area and we as controllers do not apply speed restrictions unless it is absolutely necessary.
The safety of YOUR AIRCRAFT and the safety of the AIRCRAFT AROUND YOU is our prime responsibility and WE WILL NOT BE PRESSURED INTO COMPROMISING IT.
Come and have a go on our simulators, you'll be made more than welcome and the perhaps you'll realise that you're not the only aircraft in the sky and just how difficult our job can be within the limited confines of the controlled airspace we deal with.
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b mi baby
Can I suggest that if you have a complaint about any pilots, bmi or otherwise, that you use the appropriate channels to place them. bmi have an ATC Liason Manager who I am sure would be keen to hear about this. If you don't use the correct channel then these sorts of occurances will never be properly dealt with. BTW there are a number of pilots at bmi who have an ATC ticket, maybe not a recent one but they have a pretty good idea of what is going on up there. TCAS gives us a much bigger picture than before although few of us actually know what the picture means. I for one have the utmost respect for all the ATC people at both LATCC, SCATCC and GLA who on the whole do a fantastic job.
Keep up the good work.
Keep up the good work.
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Hi guys,
Fully sympathetic with you..no need for that sort of behaviour from any so called professional!
I have flagged this thread up in the CRM forum to try and raise awareness.
The RT is not the place for tempers or arguments. That's what the Watch Manager's phone was invented for!!
PS In addition to the route suggested above, have you thought about filing a Safety Observation and/or a CHIRP report?
Fully sympathetic with you..no need for that sort of behaviour from any so called professional!
I have flagged this thread up in the CRM forum to try and raise awareness.
The RT is not the place for tempers or arguments. That's what the Watch Manager's phone was invented for!!
PS In addition to the route suggested above, have you thought about filing a Safety Observation and/or a CHIRP report?
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Slightly similar. In the early hours of yesterday I was going to have to stream two long-hauls for Heathrow. The second one needed a turn of about twenty degrees. The pilot replies, "Oh I can seen the traffic on TCAS". "Great" I said, "But if your following that one then you'll probably run out of fuel over Germany". The traffic he could see was an eastbound overflight pointing towards Holland.
The point I'm making is that the traffic you can see is generally not the traffic you're being positioned against. Leave us to do our job and only question it when the hollow diamond aint hollow any more.
More pilots on the ops room floor is needed.
The point I'm making is that the traffic you can see is generally not the traffic you're being positioned against. Leave us to do our job and only question it when the hollow diamond aint hollow any more.
More pilots on the ops room floor is needed.
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I agree with most of the foregoing. Occurrences like this MUST be reported, through CHIRP and to the company. Questioning procedures at the time on a busy frequency is not on. (a) It's extremely rude and unprofessional (b) It congests the frequency (c) It occupies a busy controller's time and therefore erodes safety (d) What right does he have to be ahead of any other aircraft? (e) If he's late he needs to address the reason for that (f) etc...
Personally, I would file an MOR giving full details on the flight, thus identifying him to the CAA.
Personally, I would file an MOR giving full details on the flight, thus identifying him to the CAA.
More than just an ATCO
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I agree entirely with above. Controllers are part of the CRM loop although some dorks don't seem to realise it.
Try not to let it get to you too much, remember you can always let him resume own speed and take up the hold
Try not to let it get to you too much, remember you can always let him resume own speed and take up the hold
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........but what about down here?
BTW there are a number of pilots at bmi who have an ATC ticket, maybe not a recent one but they have a pretty good idea of what is going on up there .
"A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing...." or something similar.
Pilots these days seem to be ever keen to brag about their "situational awareness" and, whilst TCAS certainly provides them with more information than they may previously have been privilege to it can in no way present the whole picture.
And another thing...Pilots seem to be totally oblivious to the fact that, just as they sometimes have to ignore us because they are ordering coffee from the flight attendant, so we are unable to answer them immediately because we are talking to a ground station or on another frequency.
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Pilots seem to be totally oblivious to the fact that, just as they sometimes have to ignore us because they are ordering coffee from the flight attendant, so we are unable to answer them immediately because we are talking to a ground station or on another frequency.
You should be aware that pilots are very sensitive at the moment to periods of quiet on the RT. You will probably get more calls for a radio check at the moment - simply because there have been a number of interceptions where there has been no reply to RT calls made. The french are the worst, sometimes they simply forget about you until you are out of range and therefore out of contact. Most of us are monitoring 121.5 at the moment so that is always worth a try.
Contrary to the myth which you seem happy to perpetuate pilots are not sitting in the cockpit ordering coffee and chatting to the hosties all the time. Those days are gone.
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The problem with Tcas is that some pilots forget that it only gives a small part of the picture. Pilots have no idea what`s been co-ordinated with the Tower or the adjacent Radar unit, and why would they need to.
Some pilots seem to consider compliance with speed control as optional although it`s still an ATC instruction. We know you`ve got Tcas and you can pull up 5 miles behind the one ahead but thats no use to us if we need an 8 mile gap to back track a departure or can`t turn you inbound untill you`re 3A or below.
The main reason I use speed control is to save extra track miles but if you want to do 250kts to nine miles when you`re number 4 at least let me know. Just cos we`re primary only doesn`t mean we don`t know you haven`t slowed down.
Rant over, have a nice afternoon I`m off to work slow some a/c down!!
Some pilots seem to consider compliance with speed control as optional although it`s still an ATC instruction. We know you`ve got Tcas and you can pull up 5 miles behind the one ahead but thats no use to us if we need an 8 mile gap to back track a departure or can`t turn you inbound untill you`re 3A or below.
The main reason I use speed control is to save extra track miles but if you want to do 250kts to nine miles when you`re number 4 at least let me know. Just cos we`re primary only doesn`t mean we don`t know you haven`t slowed down.
Rant over, have a nice afternoon I`m off to work slow some a/c down!!
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If London and MAN are putting people on speed, would you please talk to each other !
Got sequenced by London last week, in front guy got 300, I got 290, guy behind got 280, all on radar headings vaguely heading towards TNT, Dayne - no problems there then, seemed very sensible.
Got put onto MAN, dropped to about FL70, then the guy behind me got dropped through my level, I maintained heading, he got a left turn and all of a sudden I realised, I've been shafted !
Now, I'm 3rd, 20 extra miles at low level, my cunning plan for an efficient descent out of the window.
Must admit, that the MAN guy on 119.52 wasn't part of it and he was apologetic and passed my snarl on.
Got sequenced by London last week, in front guy got 300, I got 290, guy behind got 280, all on radar headings vaguely heading towards TNT, Dayne - no problems there then, seemed very sensible.
Got put onto MAN, dropped to about FL70, then the guy behind me got dropped through my level, I maintained heading, he got a left turn and all of a sudden I realised, I've been shafted !
Now, I'm 3rd, 20 extra miles at low level, my cunning plan for an efficient descent out of the window.
Must admit, that the MAN guy on 119.52 wasn't part of it and he was apologetic and passed my snarl on.
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Bit harsh there African Queen.
I'm sure you'd take exception if it was insuinated that you weren't answering a call cause you were stuffing your face with a doughnut.
I'm sure you'd take exception if it was insuinated that you weren't answering a call cause you were stuffing your face with a doughnut.
I'm Just A Lawnmower
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Seems to me that this just emphasizes the shortsightedness of our management and presumably the management of the airlines. In their attempts to save a paltry amount of cash, fam flights have been more or less knocked on the head and a useful menas of pilot/ATCO liason is denied us.
On similar lines, we occasionally see pilots round our ops room but they are few and far between. Seeing things from the other point of view is an important part of 'customer focus' or whatever buzzword the management can think of. Yes, they want us to be customer focused but don't provide any resources for us to be so.
On similar lines, we occasionally see pilots round our ops room but they are few and far between. Seeing things from the other point of view is an important part of 'customer focus' or whatever buzzword the management can think of. Yes, they want us to be customer focused but don't provide any resources for us to be so.
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Javelin, just because you think you have one traffic ahead doesn't automatically make you number 2. You're not standing in your local supermarket with a numbered ticket for the deli counter. Landing and for that matter departure will be done in the order we see fit, if that means traffic you believe is behind you now gets vectored in front, tough. Moaning at a controller is quite possibly the stupidest thing you can do, it will never ever help you.
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Tarten - If I am given speed sequences to fly, it is obvious to me that the initial controller is trying to stream us. If the chap in front is doing 300, I am doing 290 and the chap behind is doing 280, I think that is a clear enough indication that we have a plan wouldn't you think ?
I fly my speed, though some others don't and TCAS shows that up very well. If I start down early, as we do these days, I want to save fuel as best as I can, so I plan my descent according to my sequence - I don't give a rats ass whether I am #1, 2 or 3, so long as we all stay in that order.
Re read my post and you will see that at some point between London and MAN, a decision was made to swap me and the guy behind - that is not appropriate and it cost me 5 minutes/300kg of fuel. The snarl was taken in the spirit it was intended - I do not argue on the R/T, it is not the appropriate medium, I will however state my case plainly - that is my perogative.
By the way Tartan has 2 'A's in it
I fly my speed, though some others don't and TCAS shows that up very well. If I start down early, as we do these days, I want to save fuel as best as I can, so I plan my descent according to my sequence - I don't give a rats ass whether I am #1, 2 or 3, so long as we all stay in that order.
Re read my post and you will see that at some point between London and MAN, a decision was made to swap me and the guy behind - that is not appropriate and it cost me 5 minutes/300kg of fuel. The snarl was taken in the spirit it was intended - I do not argue on the R/T, it is not the appropriate medium, I will however state my case plainly - that is my perogative.
By the way Tartan has 2 'A's in it
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Javelin - I don't think you understand the whole rationale behind ATC.
Basically, what it amounts to is that you try to get rid of your traffic as quickly as possible to someone else, so that you can go back to doing something more interesting (taking the piss out of those not present, spinning your ball to improve your grip strength (BDD), etc,etc)
We really don't love you drivers that much that we want to keep you on our frequency for any more time than we have to, just so that you can moan and complain to us and make our lives difficult.
If the guy that you thought you were ahead of got in first then I'm 99% certain it was for a very good reason. The 1% doubt accounts for the fact that the Manch. controller could have made an error of judgement; but as we're all capable of that, and if that is the case then cut him/her some slack.
I'm 100% certain it is not the case that you didn't get in ahead of the other guy because the Manch. controller took exception to you (did you say "Good Morning/Afternoon/Evening)?
Basically, what it amounts to is that you try to get rid of your traffic as quickly as possible to someone else, so that you can go back to doing something more interesting (taking the piss out of those not present, spinning your ball to improve your grip strength (BDD), etc,etc)
We really don't love you drivers that much that we want to keep you on our frequency for any more time than we have to, just so that you can moan and complain to us and make our lives difficult.
If the guy that you thought you were ahead of got in first then I'm 99% certain it was for a very good reason. The 1% doubt accounts for the fact that the Manch. controller could have made an error of judgement; but as we're all capable of that, and if that is the case then cut him/her some slack.
I'm 100% certain it is not the case that you didn't get in ahead of the other guy because the Manch. controller took exception to you (did you say "Good Morning/Afternoon/Evening)?
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Is this a Scotland versus England thing ?
All you Jocks ganging up against us Yarksheer folks !
I'll have you know, I let a Monarch 321 go in front of us to TFS just last night - F/O couldn't understand, thought I was getting soft in my old age.
I have flown fam flights for lots of you maggot movers and everyone has ended up with a better impression of each other. I have played with your maggot simulator at MAN, very interesting - a bit like 3D chess on Star Trek !
It's a pride thing I suppose, you think you are #2, then someone who is behind and above you gets put first - bit like Spain really
All you Jocks ganging up against us Yarksheer folks !
I'll have you know, I let a Monarch 321 go in front of us to TFS just last night - F/O couldn't understand, thought I was getting soft in my old age.
I have flown fam flights for lots of you maggot movers and everyone has ended up with a better impression of each other. I have played with your maggot simulator at MAN, very interesting - a bit like 3D chess on Star Trek !
It's a pride thing I suppose, you think you are #2, then someone who is behind and above you gets put first - bit like Spain really
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Javelin:
If an area controller is streaming you using speed control, the chances are that he couldn`t care less about the approach sequence, but is trying to make optimum use of the airspace and to present the traffic to the next sector in a helpful way. Line astern on speeds is preferable to line abreast, echelon starboard/port, arrowhead, reverse arrowhead, random scatter or anything else. This is specially true during busy periods on DTY sector when the MTMA inbounds have to be reconciled with all the other routeings.
Obviously there is ,or should be a payoff for the receiving sector who are then presented with a ready made sequence. It does sound like on this occasion you were unlucky, but I`ll bet there was a good reason why it happened the way you described.
If an area controller is streaming you using speed control, the chances are that he couldn`t care less about the approach sequence, but is trying to make optimum use of the airspace and to present the traffic to the next sector in a helpful way. Line astern on speeds is preferable to line abreast, echelon starboard/port, arrowhead, reverse arrowhead, random scatter or anything else. This is specially true during busy periods on DTY sector when the MTMA inbounds have to be reconciled with all the other routeings.
Obviously there is ,or should be a payoff for the receiving sector who are then presented with a ready made sequence. It does sound like on this occasion you were unlucky, but I`ll bet there was a good reason why it happened the way you described.