Air traffic in Norway halted - Oslo ACC to close (Merged)
Pegase Driver
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 74
Posts: 3,692
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My sincere wishes that your masters will reconsider.
The site, if I remember well , has also the possibility to grow, as the current OPS room only takes less than half of the hole. That was an argument to move from Fornebu some years back I remember...
What a waste of money...
Especially since today it makes no sense whatsoever to relocate facilities, since all data ( radar) and comm lines are digitalised and sent by telephone cables......
Reducing the number of facilities( a white elephant in the 1980´s )has also proven to be not so economically sound in the end.
ask the DFS ....
The site, if I remember well , has also the possibility to grow, as the current OPS room only takes less than half of the hole. That was an argument to move from Fornebu some years back I remember...
What a waste of money...
Especially since today it makes no sense whatsoever to relocate facilities, since all data ( radar) and comm lines are digitalised and sent by telephone cables......
Reducing the number of facilities( a white elephant in the 1980´s )has also proven to be not so economically sound in the end.
ask the DFS ....
niknak
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,335
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Spuds,
All I can say is that I have huge respect for the"Nog" atco's and the way they conduct for themselves, and I will continue to do so until, in the very unlikely event that they are proved otherwise.
If they think that what is being imposed upon them is not correct, then I am more than willing to believe that.
I am not sure why or where you think I fit in to this, but perhaps you have a personal issue with either them or me.
Either way, make it public or shut up.
All I can say is that I have huge respect for the"Nog" atco's and the way they conduct for themselves, and I will continue to do so until, in the very unlikely event that they are proved otherwise.
If they think that what is being imposed upon them is not correct, then I am more than willing to believe that.
I am not sure why or where you think I fit in to this, but perhaps you have a personal issue with either them or me.
Either way, make it public or shut up.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In the CIR
Posts: 115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can relate to the problem faced by the Norwegian ATCO's
Swiss upper airspace is being moved from Zurich to Geneva and with that a whole bunch of ATCO's. They just dont know it yet. It looks like forced moving is on the cards as too few controllers have volunteered. So we know how you guys feel. Just hope our union is strong enough! Maybe we can get some tips from you guys.
Swiss upper airspace is being moved from Zurich to Geneva and with that a whole bunch of ATCO's. They just dont know it yet. It looks like forced moving is on the cards as too few controllers have volunteered. So we know how you guys feel. Just hope our union is strong enough! Maybe we can get some tips from you guys.
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Scandinavia
Posts: 174
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I copy my post from the Nordic Forum to this thread:
The controllers in Oslo CTL left work when news broke of the Norwegian CAA's recommendation to transfer all ATC in southern Norway to Stavanger CTL in 2008. All 110 ATC controller positions will be transferred to Stavanger, noone will be made redundant according to Avinor (Norw. CAA). The Control Center in Røyken outside Oslo (inaugurated in the mid-nineties) will be decommisioned.
This upset the controllers so much that they promptly left work around 10 am monday, claiming to be unfit for active duty. This effectively closed the airspace in Southern Norway, and created havoc for airlines and passengers alike. Oslo CTL only opened again tuesday morning at 0630, and then only at about 20% capacity, thus crippling traffic also today!
In my opinion an enormous overreaction by the controllers. They were notified that their positions will probably (the board's decision will fall in about a week) be moved to Stavanger in 4 years from now. Not terminated; moved. A reaction is only human, and they should of course not be on duty if not fit. But for 2 days? Come on! Take a break for an hour or two, talk it through with your collegues and then get back to work! That would be a tolerable reaction. But grounding all flights for a day and most flights the second day for such a reason is simply unforgiveable. If you are not fit to work again in reasonable time after receiving such a message, you are not fit for this job.
The Røyken-boys and -girls need a serious reality check. Take a look at how many in the aviation business have lost their jobs the last 3 years, and how many have lived with the threat (myself included). I have collegues who have been fired and have left for Singapore, Bosnia, Spain and god knows where to find a job (flying rubber dog **** etc.) - they worked 6 months notice without calling a single day sick; you are notified that your job will be moved to Stavanger (in the same country, mind you!) in 4 years from now- and you disrupt the entire air traffic in southern Norway for 2 days (and counting)!?! Our airlines are struggling back on their feet and you cause them losses of several millions!
I am not saying Avinor's recommendation is the correct one, or that there is nothing wrong with the process leading up to this. But even so this kind of reaction is not even close to being justified.
The controllers in Oslo CTL left work when news broke of the Norwegian CAA's recommendation to transfer all ATC in southern Norway to Stavanger CTL in 2008. All 110 ATC controller positions will be transferred to Stavanger, noone will be made redundant according to Avinor (Norw. CAA). The Control Center in Røyken outside Oslo (inaugurated in the mid-nineties) will be decommisioned.
This upset the controllers so much that they promptly left work around 10 am monday, claiming to be unfit for active duty. This effectively closed the airspace in Southern Norway, and created havoc for airlines and passengers alike. Oslo CTL only opened again tuesday morning at 0630, and then only at about 20% capacity, thus crippling traffic also today!
In my opinion an enormous overreaction by the controllers. They were notified that their positions will probably (the board's decision will fall in about a week) be moved to Stavanger in 4 years from now. Not terminated; moved. A reaction is only human, and they should of course not be on duty if not fit. But for 2 days? Come on! Take a break for an hour or two, talk it through with your collegues and then get back to work! That would be a tolerable reaction. But grounding all flights for a day and most flights the second day for such a reason is simply unforgiveable. If you are not fit to work again in reasonable time after receiving such a message, you are not fit for this job.
The Røyken-boys and -girls need a serious reality check. Take a look at how many in the aviation business have lost their jobs the last 3 years, and how many have lived with the threat (myself included). I have collegues who have been fired and have left for Singapore, Bosnia, Spain and god knows where to find a job (flying rubber dog **** etc.) - they worked 6 months notice without calling a single day sick; you are notified that your job will be moved to Stavanger (in the same country, mind you!) in 4 years from now- and you disrupt the entire air traffic in southern Norway for 2 days (and counting)!?! Our airlines are struggling back on their feet and you cause them losses of several millions!
I am not saying Avinor's recommendation is the correct one, or that there is nothing wrong with the process leading up to this. But even so this kind of reaction is not even close to being justified.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: A cold, windy place
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is a major difference between this and a strike. Stike is a legal action during any work related conflict when previous agreements have been broken. A strike must also be announced ahead of time, allowing the innocent third party, in this case passengers, the option to make alternate plans .
This is an organized sick out by cry babies who just can not accept everything is not going their way all the time.
The assesment of relocating one of the ATC centers Stavanger or Royken has been going on for quite some time. Trondheim center is to be transferred to Bodo, how come the controllers there did not ALL go sick when they got the news of relocation a while ago??
And if the outcome came as a bomb, I am worried about their mental capacity. 2 centers will be reduced to 1, Royken is one of the two...maybe the possibility exsisted that Royken will be terminated?
After all, they will not lose their jobs, they just have to move!!
The ATCO union shows a complete lack of integrity and balls, hiding behind flight safety and unfit for duty.
Yeah, with such an attitude, they are unfit for any ATC duty, anywhere, anytime!
Fortunately, lack of brains as well, as they have not just shot themselves in the foot, but put a beautiful double tap between their own eyes
This is an organized sick out by cry babies who just can not accept everything is not going their way all the time.
The assesment of relocating one of the ATC centers Stavanger or Royken has been going on for quite some time. Trondheim center is to be transferred to Bodo, how come the controllers there did not ALL go sick when they got the news of relocation a while ago??
And if the outcome came as a bomb, I am worried about their mental capacity. 2 centers will be reduced to 1, Royken is one of the two...maybe the possibility exsisted that Royken will be terminated?
After all, they will not lose their jobs, they just have to move!!
The ATCO union shows a complete lack of integrity and balls, hiding behind flight safety and unfit for duty.
Yeah, with such an attitude, they are unfit for any ATC duty, anywhere, anytime!
Fortunately, lack of brains as well, as they have not just shot themselves in the foot, but put a beautiful double tap between their own eyes
Moderator
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 1998
Location: Europe
Posts: 3,051
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Norwegian media yesterday overflowed with High Drama stories about stranded pax (dying little boy stranded on way to Doc in USA etc), but today the country's leading broadsheet Aftenposten is widening it's focus.
following is my undoubtedly flawed translation of this newspaper article.
ATCOS UNDER GUARD TO AVOID ACTION
All day yesterday ATCOs in Røyken were supervised while at work. Employer AVINOR wants to make sure there are no more illegal actions and wants to gather information for a possible case in the Labour Court.
PÅL ENGHAUG
KJETIL SÆTER
Fly chaos continues today - 19.09.2004
Worried In a meeting monday night the Norwegian Association of Air Traffic Controllers took upon itself the obligation to get control of the situation in Røyken. Yesterday, representatives of AVINOR's employer's organisation NAVO were in place to supervise the ATCOs keeping their part of the deal, and to gather information for a possible case against the ATCOs in the in the Labour Court.
NAVO's lawyers are working to clarify if the ATCOs spontaneous downing of tools on monday was an illegal action. If NAVO finds there is a judicial foundation for this point of view, the case wil end up in court. If things get that far, the ATCOs risk being held financialy repsonsible for economic losses. In the worst case, they can be fired.
-Sensible reaction
Airlines, passengers and organisations have reacted strongly to the ATCOs claim that they were not mentally fit to work. However, many reports from the HSLB (norwegian equivalent of NTSB) support the ATCOs. Their reaction might even have been sensible.
Speaking generally and without wanting to comment on the current situation in Røyken - These are conditions we look at in all cases of a certain gravity, and something we are very aware of in Norwegian aviation at the moment. Pilots losing their jobs, moving ATC centers, merging of airlines and the moving of the entire Civil Aviation Authority; it is all unfortunate - says Per Erik Bakke from the Accident Investigation Commission
Collision risk
Many incidents involving pilots and ATCOs have had a background of private circumstance and job loss.
article sums up some incidents
After the feb 9 incident the HSLB comes out with a number of recommandations for improving safety. They specifically point to private circumstances that can influence job performance.
HSLB recomends that management and employees at Røyken together evaluate how best take into account employees' private circumstances which make it necessary to take employees off active duty for shorter or longer periods.
The 'form of the day' has to be evaluated
In the same report the comission writes that individual ATCOs have a responsibility to evaluate their own 'form of the day' both physical and mental, and to speak up when they do not feel able to carry out their duties.
The Norwegian Aviation Authority agrees that the ATCOs are supported both by the rules and by the reports of the HSLB, but it does not want to state an opinion on how it is possible that all of theATCOs feel unfit for work at the same time.
-It is our opinion that an unconcentrated and unfocussed ATCO should not go to work. If that happens, we would not look kindly upon it. We will possibly have to take action against AVINOR if the ATCOs are forced to work, says Geir Ingebrethsen of the Norwegian Aviation Authority.
Bendik Hegglund, Chief Union Rep, Røyken of the ATCO union will today online answer the public's questions about the air chaos. People can already put in their questions here
following is my undoubtedly flawed translation of this newspaper article.
ATCOS UNDER GUARD TO AVOID ACTION
All day yesterday ATCOs in Røyken were supervised while at work. Employer AVINOR wants to make sure there are no more illegal actions and wants to gather information for a possible case in the Labour Court.
PÅL ENGHAUG
KJETIL SÆTER
Fly chaos continues today - 19.09.2004
Worried In a meeting monday night the Norwegian Association of Air Traffic Controllers took upon itself the obligation to get control of the situation in Røyken. Yesterday, representatives of AVINOR's employer's organisation NAVO were in place to supervise the ATCOs keeping their part of the deal, and to gather information for a possible case against the ATCOs in the in the Labour Court.
NAVO's lawyers are working to clarify if the ATCOs spontaneous downing of tools on monday was an illegal action. If NAVO finds there is a judicial foundation for this point of view, the case wil end up in court. If things get that far, the ATCOs risk being held financialy repsonsible for economic losses. In the worst case, they can be fired.
-Sensible reaction
Airlines, passengers and organisations have reacted strongly to the ATCOs claim that they were not mentally fit to work. However, many reports from the HSLB (norwegian equivalent of NTSB) support the ATCOs. Their reaction might even have been sensible.
Speaking generally and without wanting to comment on the current situation in Røyken - These are conditions we look at in all cases of a certain gravity, and something we are very aware of in Norwegian aviation at the moment. Pilots losing their jobs, moving ATC centers, merging of airlines and the moving of the entire Civil Aviation Authority; it is all unfortunate - says Per Erik Bakke from the Accident Investigation Commission
Collision risk
Many incidents involving pilots and ATCOs have had a background of private circumstance and job loss.
article sums up some incidents
After the feb 9 incident the HSLB comes out with a number of recommandations for improving safety. They specifically point to private circumstances that can influence job performance.
HSLB recomends that management and employees at Røyken together evaluate how best take into account employees' private circumstances which make it necessary to take employees off active duty for shorter or longer periods.
The 'form of the day' has to be evaluated
In the same report the comission writes that individual ATCOs have a responsibility to evaluate their own 'form of the day' both physical and mental, and to speak up when they do not feel able to carry out their duties.
The Norwegian Aviation Authority agrees that the ATCOs are supported both by the rules and by the reports of the HSLB, but it does not want to state an opinion on how it is possible that all of theATCOs feel unfit for work at the same time.
-It is our opinion that an unconcentrated and unfocussed ATCO should not go to work. If that happens, we would not look kindly upon it. We will possibly have to take action against AVINOR if the ATCOs are forced to work, says Geir Ingebrethsen of the Norwegian Aviation Authority.
Bendik Hegglund, Chief Union Rep, Røyken of the ATCO union will today online answer the public's questions about the air chaos. People can already put in their questions here
Aviator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Norveg
Posts: 483
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This reaction from the employees at Royken is an outright insult to the rest of us in the aviation industry! I didn't notice anyone at SAS Commuter suddenly being incapable of performing their duties when they were moved from Tromso to Oslo?! And a lot of them were fired - not just relocated... But then again, pilots don't have the same level of responsibility for air safety as ATC does, I guess.
I, and some of my pilot colleagues were fired last autumn. Neither of us felt completely unable to perform our duties. We dealt with it. If you cannot handle a situation like this - you're not qualified for the job at hand. Get a grip, people! :-(
I, and some of my pilot colleagues were fired last autumn. Neither of us felt completely unable to perform our duties. We dealt with it. If you cannot handle a situation like this - you're not qualified for the job at hand. Get a grip, people! :-(
Pegase Driver
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 74
Posts: 3,692
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Crossunder and others :
Stop mixing apples and pears.
Controllers and pilot job are two totally different things . If the two were identical, we would have the same pay structure and the ATC job would have been long automated ..
Moving base/ aircraft type is part of the pilot carreer. You know it beforehand. The controller contracts / carreers are different ( or were different, see the the new DFS contracts .
)
As a Controller you have to be 100 % thinking of what you are doing, a 100 % of the time you are sitting at the position.
Serious problems , whether home related or work induced will affect your concentration .
If you are so upset, you should be bold enough to say so and ask to be relieved .
If everyone is upset, obvious safety solution is to close down sectors for a while until things are settled.
Better have guys complaining on the ground to be late than answering the famillies of the missing on the phone....
What the guys did in Oslo is bold, but it should be like this.
For the employer to challenge this in court will be interesting to watch....
Stop mixing apples and pears.
Controllers and pilot job are two totally different things . If the two were identical, we would have the same pay structure and the ATC job would have been long automated ..
Moving base/ aircraft type is part of the pilot carreer. You know it beforehand. The controller contracts / carreers are different ( or were different, see the the new DFS contracts .
)As a Controller you have to be 100 % thinking of what you are doing, a 100 % of the time you are sitting at the position.
Serious problems , whether home related or work induced will affect your concentration .
If you are so upset, you should be bold enough to say so and ask to be relieved .
If everyone is upset, obvious safety solution is to close down sectors for a while until things are settled.
Better have guys complaining on the ground to be late than answering the famillies of the missing on the phone....
What the guys did in Oslo is bold, but it should be like this.
For the employer to challenge this in court will be interesting to watch....
Aviator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Norveg
Posts: 483
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
They were bold? Bollocks!!!
I could have accepted a slight reduction in the number of movements, but a complete standstill? If the controllers are swept off their feet, being rendered completely unable to handle even two aircraft per hour, because of a little bad news (no-one will be fired, and the possible relocation isn't until four years from now) ; then they should be looking for a new line of work.
If you want to go on strike then do so; do it by the book and call it what is.
I could have accepted a slight reduction in the number of movements, but a complete standstill? If the controllers are swept off their feet, being rendered completely unable to handle even two aircraft per hour, because of a little bad news (no-one will be fired, and the possible relocation isn't until four years from now) ; then they should be looking for a new line of work.
If you want to go on strike then do so; do it by the book and call it what is.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: New Zealand
Age: 62
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
M609
Greetings from the antipodes.
You have our sympathies. Airways NZ relocated Wellington Centre to Christchurch in the late 80s(?). Auckland got the same treatment in the 90s and Ohakea is counting down to the big move in January 2006.
There will be more of this nonsense around the world as the beancounters continue to try to justify their existence. Our CEO is telling anyone that cares to listen that there will be only 30 Centres worldwide in 30 years time.
CEO Comments 2003
World Terminal Centres 2030
At least he admits that the process will be painful for many.
It seems to me that Empire Building is the name of the game and whoever is the best at Empire Building will get to stay in one location and the rest will get to move around a lot.
Greetings from the antipodes.
You have our sympathies. Airways NZ relocated Wellington Centre to Christchurch in the late 80s(?). Auckland got the same treatment in the 90s and Ohakea is counting down to the big move in January 2006.
There will be more of this nonsense around the world as the beancounters continue to try to justify their existence. Our CEO is telling anyone that cares to listen that there will be only 30 Centres worldwide in 30 years time.
CEO Comments 2003
World Terminal Centres 2030
At least he admits that the process will be painful for many.
It seems to me that Empire Building is the name of the game and whoever is the best at Empire Building will get to stay in one location and the rest will get to move around a lot.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Uranus
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why don't you put some pressure on the Norwegian system by moving out of the country instead?
ACC ATCOs could apply for jobs at Bahrain ACC or Abu Dhabi ACC!!! There's a 99% guarantee for sunshine every day unlike Stavanger!!!
Salary is tax free, housing is paid for (not a lot but its free), air tickets, medicals (not the best), utilities. Easy life style!
ACC ATCOs could apply for jobs at Bahrain ACC or Abu Dhabi ACC!!! There's a 99% guarantee for sunshine every day unlike Stavanger!!!
Salary is tax free, housing is paid for (not a lot but its free), air tickets, medicals (not the best), utilities. Easy life style!
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: 59°45'36N 10°27'59E
Posts: 1,032
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why don't you put some pressure on the Norwegian system by moving out of the country instead?
On another note, It's not just the controllers that are feeling a bit down.
The tech maintenance department are not doing much maintenance, and the development department (radar etc) are not much development these days.
The world is, that none of them are going to Stavanger.
(They have key knowledge on the partially home grown radar system "NATCON", and I "fear" that this might but a major dent in the in service date for this system at Bodø ATCC, and all connected APP/TWR/AFIS units)
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Uranus
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To all Norwegian ATCOs (and everyone else) who might be interested in working in the Middle East for Serco Bahrain or Abu Dhabi ACC should contact:
Mr Rick Sharpe, Manager Air Traffic Operations
[email protected]
Mr Rick Sharpe, Manager Air Traffic Operations
[email protected]
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: 59°45'36N 10°27'59E
Posts: 1,032
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well perhaps not after all.....
When the former CEO of the company and the national manager of ATS was kicked out in december, we knew they would reconsider.
So today: http://www.aftenposten.no/english/lo...cle1233591.ece (Aftenposten, in english)
It's all a smoke and mirrors show, because the proposed TRACON they where going to bulid at Oslo Gardermoen has grown, and has become very expensive.
They are now going to move some airspace to Stavanger, and rename Oslo ATCC to Oslo Terminal Control.
The background for this is, that a redesign of airspace, sectors and procedures for Oslo have been mandated by the NCAA. (The so called "SOL/Norsim" project.) This includes introducing more APP/DEP sectors, as well as an automated arrival manager. Some enroute sectors will be redesigned as pure feeder sectors for Oslo Gardermoen. (The majority of traffic in Oslo AOR is to/from airports in SE Norway)
Still, the main problem is still that we need something like 80-100 controllers today, to get things done. (On a national basis) That's a lot, considering that we are less then 500 total........
Anyone fancy work in Norway? 0500 +SHSN VV004 outside the window now!
So today: http://www.aftenposten.no/english/lo...cle1233591.ece (Aftenposten, in english)
It's all a smoke and mirrors show, because the proposed TRACON they where going to bulid at Oslo Gardermoen has grown, and has become very expensive.
They are now going to move some airspace to Stavanger, and rename Oslo ATCC to Oslo Terminal Control.
The background for this is, that a redesign of airspace, sectors and procedures for Oslo have been mandated by the NCAA. (The so called "SOL/Norsim" project.) This includes introducing more APP/DEP sectors, as well as an automated arrival manager. Some enroute sectors will be redesigned as pure feeder sectors for Oslo Gardermoen. (The majority of traffic in Oslo AOR is to/from airports in SE Norway)
Still, the main problem is still that we need something like 80-100 controllers today, to get things done. (On a national basis) That's a lot, considering that we are less then 500 total........
Anyone fancy work in Norway? 0500 +SHSN VV004 outside the window now!
