So what happens AFTER NERC "O" date?
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2001
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From: I sell sea shells by the sea shore
Bandboxing
The art of combining two (or more) ATC sectors and running them as one.
Usually done when traffic levels are low enough not to require the sectors to be "Split". E.G. Nights.
Required(esp at Swanwick)because staff shortages mean that there aren't enough qualified controllers to actually "man" the split sectors. Serious flow control is then required to keep the bandboxed (combined) sector controller from becoming overloaded.
Okay that's what "bandboxing" is, but in all honesty I do not know the origin of the term I've been using for over 20 years. I never thought to ask. Anyone out there care to enlighten me? Silver Fox? You still around? Help.
Rgds BEX
The art of combining two (or more) ATC sectors and running them as one.
Usually done when traffic levels are low enough not to require the sectors to be "Split". E.G. Nights.
Required(esp at Swanwick)because staff shortages mean that there aren't enough qualified controllers to actually "man" the split sectors. Serious flow control is then required to keep the bandboxed (combined) sector controller from becoming overloaded.
Okay that's what "bandboxing" is, but in all honesty I do not know the origin of the term I've been using for over 20 years. I never thought to ask. Anyone out there care to enlighten me? Silver Fox? You still around? Help.
Rgds BEX
Joined: Sep 2001
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From: UK
'Bandboxing'. The word 'bandbox' I originally thought was fairly modern, perhaps having its origins in the early 20th. century coinciding with the advent of radio. In fact, according to the Greater Oxford Dictionary, it comes to us from the 17th. century, first being coined in 1631. It generally means 'neatness' or 'pristine'. Here are a couple of lines from the dictionary :-
1869 _Mark Twain' Innoc. Abroad xxxviii. 410 They are all_ exceedingly neat and cleanly_as if they were just out of a band-box.
967 V. H. Gielgud Conduct of Member xx. 160 She was wearing a dressing-gown_but preserved her usual band-box quality of neat fastidiousness.
So, perhaps when we'bandbox' sectors we're 'neatening or tidying up'.
1869 _Mark Twain' Innoc. Abroad xxxviii. 410 They are all_ exceedingly neat and cleanly_as if they were just out of a band-box.
967 V. H. Gielgud Conduct of Member xx. 160 She was wearing a dressing-gown_but preserved her usual band-box quality of neat fastidiousness.
So, perhaps when we'bandbox' sectors we're 'neatening or tidying up'.
Joined: Oct 2001
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From: SE UK
Gosh, what an example of what an education can do for you.
I always thought that the old fashioned (if 50 years can be called that) term/slang for a frequency was "band". So by band boxing we are putting bands in the same box.
But I like Norths explanation far more.
I always thought that the old fashioned (if 50 years can be called that) term/slang for a frequency was "band". So by band boxing we are putting bands in the same box.
But I like Norths explanation far more.
Joined: Apr 2001
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From: A Virtual World!
Bexil - looking at your original post, I see that at least easyJet seem to be aware of the position and are advising their customers through their Website.
<a href="http://www.easyjet.com/en/news/20020124_01.html" target="_blank">http://www.easyjet.com/en/news/20020124_01.html</a>
<a href="http://www.easyjet.com/en/news/20020124_01.html" target="_blank">http://www.easyjet.com/en/news/20020124_01.html</a>
Thread Starter
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From: I sell sea shells by the sea shore
Lots of "Thank you's":
Northumbrian and IThink, thank you for adding to my education. You're never to old to learn something.
Olney1B.. At Last. The message does seem to be getting thru.
Rgds BEX
Northumbrian and IThink, thank you for adding to my education. You're never to old to learn something.
Olney1B.. At Last. The message does seem to be getting thru.
Rgds BEX
Joined: Jul 1999
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From: EMA
The BBC is finally reporting the switch over:
<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1782000/1782000.stm" target="_blank">BBC News</a>
<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1781000/1781780.stm" target="_blank">News Comment</a>
Not the best publicity for NATS and all fairly negative, can't help thinking that with a bit of pre-emptive work NATS could have spun the event better.
<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1782000/1782000.stm" target="_blank">BBC News</a>
<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1781000/1781780.stm" target="_blank">News Comment</a>
Not the best publicity for NATS and all fairly negative, can't help thinking that with a bit of pre-emptive work NATS could have spun the event better.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Joined: Mar 2000
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From: UK
I fully echo the sentiments expressed by egll 28r.
If any can steer it through it will be the UK controllers. Fingers crossed for the equipment!
I'm 'up and about' Sunday - Tuesday, so hopefully there will not be too much shared pain.
BA Forum moderator
PS White Rose spoke earlier in this thread of 'Wednesday/shutdowns' - can anyone give a drivers' precis of what these are please?
[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: BOAC ]</p>
If any can steer it through it will be the UK controllers. Fingers crossed for the equipment!
I'm 'up and about' Sunday - Tuesday, so hopefully there will not be too much shared pain.
BA Forum moderator
PS White Rose spoke earlier in this thread of 'Wednesday/shutdowns' - can anyone give a drivers' precis of what these are please?
[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: BOAC ]</p>
Joined: Nov 2000
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From: Greystation
Shutdowns at Latcc (West Drayton), now called something different at Lacc (Swanwick). This is when the engineers turn off the computer that generates all our information, so we have to go 'manual'. All it means is that the estimates to other ACC's and agencies have to be passed by phone as the 'computer link' no longer works. Also, all the radar tools, such as conflict alert, are lost. If it goes on for some time, it can also lead to our flight strips being written by hand, as most of the first 4 hours of traffic have 'skeleton' strips printed where we just fill in Squalk, FL, and times.
The computer has to be shut down to clear out all the files. When pending plans aren't activated, they are still kept in the memory, so eventually it gets full. It happens usually on Wednesday nights between 1030pm and 3am, just as its getting quiet at night, and back on to take the Atlantic fallout around 330am. Sometimes they happen on other nights too, as the engineers also use them to install and update the software.
Hope that helps, and hope I got it all right too!!!!!
The computer has to be shut down to clear out all the files. When pending plans aren't activated, they are still kept in the memory, so eventually it gets full. It happens usually on Wednesday nights between 1030pm and 3am, just as its getting quiet at night, and back on to take the Atlantic fallout around 330am. Sometimes they happen on other nights too, as the engineers also use them to install and update the software.
Hope that helps, and hope I got it all right too!!!!!
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2001
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From: I sell sea shells by the sea shore
I have watched the media today trot out their pieces on the opening of Swanwick tomorrow and they've all picked up on one thing. . . [quote]Delays will occur for the first ten days <hr></blockquote>
Much as I am positive about going to Swanwick and making it work properly, flow control will probably be needed for at least 30 days , not just the first ten. We are not going to impose a 30% cut and then suddenly go to full sector capacity overnight (are we?)
There is a further serious issue which bears repeating. Until each sector has been tested at those lower capacities it would be unwise to raise the flow rates higher. With some sectors at this time of year having lower demand anyway, it could be some time before they are tested even at a reduced capacity.
Indeed, given the schedule published earlier, it could be six weeks before flow is raised to normal levels. A point that seems to have been conveniently forgotten by the NATS spin doctors. I only state this here (again) as it is the truth, and i believe that our customers, the airlines, would rather have the unpalatable facts than the spin trotted out by NATS management.
I am very much looking forward to working at Swanwick, a pleasant environment, and when I have some experience of, and confidence in, the system I'll have no problem in upping the sector capacities. This will NOT HAPPEN overnight, or in 10 days. Sorry, but this is a SAFETY issue.
Any NATS managers out there courageous enough to comfirm that what I'm saying is true? I'm waiting.....
Rgds BEX
Much as I am positive about going to Swanwick and making it work properly, flow control will probably be needed for at least 30 days , not just the first ten. We are not going to impose a 30% cut and then suddenly go to full sector capacity overnight (are we?)
There is a further serious issue which bears repeating. Until each sector has been tested at those lower capacities it would be unwise to raise the flow rates higher. With some sectors at this time of year having lower demand anyway, it could be some time before they are tested even at a reduced capacity.
Indeed, given the schedule published earlier, it could be six weeks before flow is raised to normal levels. A point that seems to have been conveniently forgotten by the NATS spin doctors. I only state this here (again) as it is the truth, and i believe that our customers, the airlines, would rather have the unpalatable facts than the spin trotted out by NATS management.
I am very much looking forward to working at Swanwick, a pleasant environment, and when I have some experience of, and confidence in, the system I'll have no problem in upping the sector capacities. This will NOT HAPPEN overnight, or in 10 days. Sorry, but this is a SAFETY issue.
Any NATS managers out there courageous enough to comfirm that what I'm saying is true? I'm waiting.....
Rgds BEX
Joined: Dec 2001
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From: England
Oh bother, I gotta fly Frankfurt to Cincinnati next week. Are any delays likely to effect this route or won't the riples spread out this far?
I could have flown out last week had I known. Wonder why this warning go out earlier?
I could have flown out last week had I known. Wonder why this warning go out earlier?
Thread Starter
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From: I sell sea shells by the sea shore
Yes, I'm afraid it probably will.
The flow measures were agreed late LAST YEAR (Nov, I think) and publicised here. NATS management have continually played down the impact of the introduction of Swanwick. You'd have to ask them WHY.
The operational controllers (like Me) need some time to get used to the new equipment and procedures and for safety's sake, we need to keep the traffic levels down until be get some experience and confidence in the new kit. You might gather from this that our training on the new system has been somewhat basic.
Sorry for the delays, it gives me no pleasure to hold any aircraft on the ground longer than absolutely necessary, but please understand it's for your own safety.
Rgds BEX
The flow measures were agreed late LAST YEAR (Nov, I think) and publicised here. NATS management have continually played down the impact of the introduction of Swanwick. You'd have to ask them WHY.
The operational controllers (like Me) need some time to get used to the new equipment and procedures and for safety's sake, we need to keep the traffic levels down until be get some experience and confidence in the new kit. You might gather from this that our training on the new system has been somewhat basic.
Sorry for the delays, it gives me no pleasure to hold any aircraft on the ground longer than absolutely necessary, but please understand it's for your own safety.
Rgds BEX
Joined: Jul 2001
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From: EGTT
Hi all. .At the end of the final day's "training" we were told by that tall grey bird that stands all day in water waiting for a fish, that every 10 days, subject to all parties agreeing, a 5% increase in flow rates will be implemented. My maths may be rusty but that implies AT LEAST 60 DAYS until back at standard target rates.. .TV this evening still saying delays for up to TEN DAYS
Even that may be dubious with leave/sickness and NTT members being clobbered for training in February - they have probably lees 'hands-on' time on the kit than the vast majority. Some people could well experience great differences in flow rates if absent for any length of time.
Even that may be dubious with leave/sickness and NTT members being clobbered for training in February - they have probably lees 'hands-on' time on the kit than the vast majority. Some people could well experience great differences in flow rates if absent for any length of time.
More than just an ATCO
Joined: Jul 1999
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From: Up someone's nose
Quiet innit?. .The real test will come tomorrow I guess.. .The weather gods seem to be helping by pushing a lot of N. Atlantic traffic around London airspace.
However why does it continue to be neccessary to close the computer down on Wednesday? Surely it is possible to do it on the run, or is it still a requirement to oil the mechanism on Mr. Babbage's Calculating Engine every seven days?
However why does it continue to be neccessary to close the computer down on Wednesday? Surely it is possible to do it on the run, or is it still a requirement to oil the mechanism on Mr. Babbage's Calculating Engine every seven days?
Joined: May 1999
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From: UK
Flight Plan Fixer, which planet are you on??
I guess you never have asked the operational staff what they think of the 'testing'.
I'll save you the trouble and tell you...... .'new' adaptation: wrong (wouldn't like to guess what % this is), resulting in wrong strips/no strips/too many strips/wrong times. .'old' adaptation: if anything was wrong, its fixed 5 months down the line, however, there seems to be a rule that for everything fixed, something else must be broken! (job for life?).
To call the software 'tested' is an insult!!
Sorry mate, if you're involved, but bad news ain't nice <img src="frown.gif" border="0">
I guess you never have asked the operational staff what they think of the 'testing'.
I'll save you the trouble and tell you...... .'new' adaptation: wrong (wouldn't like to guess what % this is), resulting in wrong strips/no strips/too many strips/wrong times. .'old' adaptation: if anything was wrong, its fixed 5 months down the line, however, there seems to be a rule that for everything fixed, something else must be broken! (job for life?).
To call the software 'tested' is an insult!!
Sorry mate, if you're involved, but bad news ain't nice <img src="frown.gif" border="0">