So what happens AFTER NERC "O" date?
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So what happens AFTER NERC "O" date?
....according to a letter from Rod Edington (BA) to Mr. Cheese & Ham NOTHING it's business as usual for the airlines. Indeed according to the BA exec:
[quote]the travelling public will not notice any difference <hr></blockquote>
Well, no, not if they think that two hour delays are the norm, they won't be aware that anything has altered, will they?
It still seems to me that the airlines, and airports that are in the London FIR, have not been fully appraised of the fact that WEF from 27th Jan 2002, Flow rates on all the Swanwick sectors will be CUT by 30% , for at least 10 days. The rates will not be raised for a considerable time thereafter. (Up to SIX WEEKS)
Currently (winter) traffic levels are low, but not such that they are less than 70% of Target sector flow. Even if they were, this would mean the retention of the restricted rates for a longer period.
It would be unwise to raise rates above the reduced levels until the sectors had been tested at that lower capacity . If they were raised, you might well end up with a situation where a sector was open to its full declared capacity, without ever being tested at, or near, that level for real. Not a safe situation.
Now, I am not being negative at about NERC/Swanwick or LACC, whatever you want to call it. It is a step in the right direction. But CAUTION NEEDS TO BE EXERCISED. Go too fast too soon and the wheels could fall off.
Comments?
Rgds BEX
A footnote. I've posted this here, rather than in the NATS forum as I believe the subject affects, and needs, a wider audience.
[quote]the travelling public will not notice any difference <hr></blockquote>
Well, no, not if they think that two hour delays are the norm, they won't be aware that anything has altered, will they?
It still seems to me that the airlines, and airports that are in the London FIR, have not been fully appraised of the fact that WEF from 27th Jan 2002, Flow rates on all the Swanwick sectors will be CUT by 30% , for at least 10 days. The rates will not be raised for a considerable time thereafter. (Up to SIX WEEKS)
Currently (winter) traffic levels are low, but not such that they are less than 70% of Target sector flow. Even if they were, this would mean the retention of the restricted rates for a longer period.
It would be unwise to raise rates above the reduced levels until the sectors had been tested at that lower capacity . If they were raised, you might well end up with a situation where a sector was open to its full declared capacity, without ever being tested at, or near, that level for real. Not a safe situation.
Now, I am not being negative at about NERC/Swanwick or LACC, whatever you want to call it. It is a step in the right direction. But CAUTION NEEDS TO BE EXERCISED. Go too fast too soon and the wheels could fall off.
Comments?
Rgds BEX
A footnote. I've posted this here, rather than in the NATS forum as I believe the subject affects, and needs, a wider audience.
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Historically, higher management have been misled about how NERC (sorry, Swanwick <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> ) is the best thing since sliced bread. Maybe nothing has changed and Mr Cheese & Ham honestly believes what he has written as thats whats been told to him <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
Time to weed out some of the layers of management?
Time to weed out some of the layers of management?
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Bexil
I have just attended a briefing today on the TSF reductions on O day and after and I agree, it will be anything but normal for the airlines and their passengers. We will of course be letting our passengers know the good news that NATS new Centre has just opened and, please bear with us while our ATC colleges bed in the new system. Sorry, but we may have some delays and extended flight times.
I trust NATS will use this opportunity to proudly announce the new centre and advise the travelling public that safety, of course must come first, and to please understand the reason for the delays.
I have just attended a briefing today on the TSF reductions on O day and after and I agree, it will be anything but normal for the airlines and their passengers. We will of course be letting our passengers know the good news that NATS new Centre has just opened and, please bear with us while our ATC colleges bed in the new system. Sorry, but we may have some delays and extended flight times.
I trust NATS will use this opportunity to proudly announce the new centre and advise the travelling public that safety, of course must come first, and to please understand the reason for the delays.
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No Sig....
Thanks for that. My concern was that the airlines were being promised something by NATS Management that was not true, and indeed not possible.
To find a letter from BA to NATS implying that there will be no impact suggests that either:
(1) BA haven't been told the Truth
(2) Mr. Cheese & Ham doesn't know the truth
(3) Mr Edington and Cheese & Ham have been mis-advised by their people.
My concern is that the ATCOs and ATSAs that actually provide the service would be the first to be blamed for the inevitable safety related flow delays, NATS managers having seemed to be less than honest with the airlines about the serious impact these measures WILL have.
Rgds BEX.
Thanks for that. My concern was that the airlines were being promised something by NATS Management that was not true, and indeed not possible.
To find a letter from BA to NATS implying that there will be no impact suggests that either:
(1) BA haven't been told the Truth
(2) Mr. Cheese & Ham doesn't know the truth
(3) Mr Edington and Cheese & Ham have been mis-advised by their people.
My concern is that the ATCOs and ATSAs that actually provide the service would be the first to be blamed for the inevitable safety related flow delays, NATS managers having seemed to be less than honest with the airlines about the serious impact these measures WILL have.
Rgds BEX.
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Others can add more detail if you want it (I'm not a NSEA expert) but Swanwick will be responsible for everything in the London FIR that LATCC AREA control does now. (i.e. most of the London FIR Airways system, with the exception of the important bits covered by colleagues at Manchester, and Terminal Control, London).
Oh, and London Information is relocating to Swanwick as well... on the Afternoon of 26th Jan.
Rgds BEX
Oh, and London Information is relocating to Swanwick as well... on the Afternoon of 26th Jan.
Rgds BEX
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What has been missed so far is that on 24th January Europe goes RVSM and is unilaterally reducing flow rates by 25%. So the delays caused by the introduction of NERC on the 27th will hardly show.
Lucky old NATS managmentget away with it again! <img src="frown.gif" border="0">
Lucky old NATS managmentget away with it again! <img src="frown.gif" border="0">
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err.. not TOTALLY true...
Maastricht intend to reduce their flow rates by 25%, but many EUR states aren't being quite so draconian, and SOME aren't adding extra flow at all.
You can get a full list from CFMU but some highlights:
France : Most ACCs flows reduced by 10 to 15% for 10 to 15 days
Germany : ACCs flows reduced by up to 10% for 7 to 10 days
Spain : MAX flow restriction is 20%
CFMU are also making VERY CLEAR in all their bulletins relating to the introduction of EUR RVSM that UK restriction are due to NERC, NOT RVSM.
EUROCONTROL are extremely keen (and rightly so) that RVSM be seen as a step forward in increasing capacity. They do not want the UKs introduction of NERC and the subsequent delays that are inevitable to be blamed on their project.
Rgds BEX
Maastricht intend to reduce their flow rates by 25%, but many EUR states aren't being quite so draconian, and SOME aren't adding extra flow at all.
You can get a full list from CFMU but some highlights:
France : Most ACCs flows reduced by 10 to 15% for 10 to 15 days
Germany : ACCs flows reduced by up to 10% for 7 to 10 days
Spain : MAX flow restriction is 20%
CFMU are also making VERY CLEAR in all their bulletins relating to the introduction of EUR RVSM that UK restriction are due to NERC, NOT RVSM.
EUROCONTROL are extremely keen (and rightly so) that RVSM be seen as a step forward in increasing capacity. They do not want the UKs introduction of NERC and the subsequent delays that are inevitable to be blamed on their project.
Rgds BEX
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Hasn't anybody thought about Wednesday nights? Shutdowns are going to be a total nightmare. With flow restrictions needed to get the traffic levels down to acceptable rates we are going to see massive delays, possibly running into Thur.
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BEX - re Maastricht rates. Dunno where you got 25% from. According to everything I've seen it's max. 15% for the first few days.. .Our biggest worry is with the fact that we were only informed today that you required verbal estimates i.s.o. ACT exchange; previous experience shows that it can take us several minutes to pass you one estimate.. .Oh, the reintroduction after several years of a FLAS on N.Sea due "software problems" ??? at NERC has lead to a slight sense of humour failure at Maastricht and in Copenhagen - 40, if you read this better make it "War and Peace" or something prophetic, like "The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire".. .The only plus point that I can see for Sunday is that Radar, Radar is still on leave, although probably lurking.
. .[ Lon More - just an ATCO ]
. .[ Lon More - just an ATCO ]
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Hello Lon..
The minus 25% figure for Maastricht comes off the EUR RVSM web pages, and the flow bulletins I've seen which detail all the flow that's being imposed.
I agree it does seem a bit harsh for the introduction of RVSM, but if the UK experience of "early" introduction of RVSM last year is anything to go by, you'll be able to raise the rates pretty quickly. RVSM works, and works well IMHO.
As for estimates in lieu of ACT / OLDI messages this should only be for the period from 0001-0330 (-ish) on 27th Jan. By 0330 at the latest NERC should be up and running with all the OLDI link enabled.
I've said before I'm not a NSEA expert so can't comment on FLAS, but will say that Swanwick ain't perfect by a long way, but it's the only system we've got (not by choice). I understand the frustration faced by AMS/ Copenhagen / and yourselves, and I symphathise, really I do. Imagine what it's like for us who actually have to operate it!.
Seriously though please address any probs to the NERC Management, they apparently have a system for dealing with just this type of thing. A very large dustbin. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
Anyway to reiterate. WE are just as frustrated as you. Hopefully we can make it work a bit better when we finally get to grips with it this weekend. No promises though.
Best rgds (esp to RADAR RADAR!)
BEX
The minus 25% figure for Maastricht comes off the EUR RVSM web pages, and the flow bulletins I've seen which detail all the flow that's being imposed.
I agree it does seem a bit harsh for the introduction of RVSM, but if the UK experience of "early" introduction of RVSM last year is anything to go by, you'll be able to raise the rates pretty quickly. RVSM works, and works well IMHO.
As for estimates in lieu of ACT / OLDI messages this should only be for the period from 0001-0330 (-ish) on 27th Jan. By 0330 at the latest NERC should be up and running with all the OLDI link enabled.
I've said before I'm not a NSEA expert so can't comment on FLAS, but will say that Swanwick ain't perfect by a long way, but it's the only system we've got (not by choice). I understand the frustration faced by AMS/ Copenhagen / and yourselves, and I symphathise, really I do. Imagine what it's like for us who actually have to operate it!.
Seriously though please address any probs to the NERC Management, they apparently have a system for dealing with just this type of thing. A very large dustbin. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
Anyway to reiterate. WE are just as frustrated as you. Hopefully we can make it work a bit better when we finally get to grips with it this weekend. No promises though.
Best rgds (esp to RADAR RADAR!)
BEX
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Whilst not necessarily a NSEA 'expert' I am at least valid on the sector, so perhaps I can give some sort of help with the FLAS issue.
NSEA under NERC simply does not work without some form of FLAS. The problem is the crossover between UM604 and UY70/UL602/UL74 at BEENO/TOPPA. Because of the time parameters for electronic transfer of details between MAAS and London, there is insufficient warning of conflicts between UM604 westbound (i.e. southbound) traffic and UL602/UL74 traffic westbound. As in theory sectors 11 and 33 are separate (although we can't open them both together due insufficient staff!) and the boundary is only a few miles north of BEENO the problem is that 33 might have traffic which is OK for him at TOPPA but a ringer with something at BEENO and no level available to change it. So the use of a FLAS provides sorm form of initial separation at BEENO/TOPPA.
Having just done my farcical final OCT module, I can confidently inform you that the MAAS westbound FLAS levels are 260, 280, 300, 340 and 400, while Copenhagen can use 260, 320, 360, 380 and 400. Maastricht have moaned enough that they have been allowed to request the use of FL310 (an eastbound level under RVSM) at certain times of heavy demand. This screws up the eastbound traffic on five other sectors (Scottish, LUS, Clacton, 10 and 11) but hey, who cares!
I have a feeling that NSEA will be the fly in the ointment with regard to the NERC system, but we shall see... <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
NSEA under NERC simply does not work without some form of FLAS. The problem is the crossover between UM604 and UY70/UL602/UL74 at BEENO/TOPPA. Because of the time parameters for electronic transfer of details between MAAS and London, there is insufficient warning of conflicts between UM604 westbound (i.e. southbound) traffic and UL602/UL74 traffic westbound. As in theory sectors 11 and 33 are separate (although we can't open them both together due insufficient staff!) and the boundary is only a few miles north of BEENO the problem is that 33 might have traffic which is OK for him at TOPPA but a ringer with something at BEENO and no level available to change it. So the use of a FLAS provides sorm form of initial separation at BEENO/TOPPA.
Having just done my farcical final OCT module, I can confidently inform you that the MAAS westbound FLAS levels are 260, 280, 300, 340 and 400, while Copenhagen can use 260, 320, 360, 380 and 400. Maastricht have moaned enough that they have been allowed to request the use of FL310 (an eastbound level under RVSM) at certain times of heavy demand. This screws up the eastbound traffic on five other sectors (Scottish, LUS, Clacton, 10 and 11) but hey, who cares!
I have a feeling that NSEA will be the fly in the ointment with regard to the NERC system, but we shall see... <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
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I would say 'excited', and I am confident it'll run, weather its running correctly or we just get on with all it has to offer remains to be seen. I think things should go reasonably smoothly, and if NO hitches at all occur, then fantastic, hats off to all those involved, they will certainly have earnt it.
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5MB.... Yep, I agree. One way or another Swanwick will be open for business this weekend and yes, I'm looking forward to it.
As for the system, well that's another story. Until we all gain some familiarity with the equipment and it's "features" we're going to have to take it slowly slowly.
Rgds BEX
As for the system, well that's another story. Until we all gain some familiarity with the equipment and it's "features" we're going to have to take it slowly slowly.
Rgds BEX
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BEXIL - I agree that things should be taken Very Softly Softly. NERC is so different from what you the ATCO/ATSAs are used to that it will take time for you to settle down.
Is it's real life there is always something that can wrong!
To everyone coming to NERC - Good Luck <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
[ 23 January 2002: Message edited by: NERC Dweller ]</p>
Is it's real life there is always something that can wrong!
To everyone coming to NERC - Good Luck <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
[ 23 January 2002: Message edited by: NERC Dweller ]</p>
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BEX, having seen your posts on another topic, i guess that NERC is not going to get off to the best of starts - and i thought we had some idiots here.Still you can't expect much in a building made back to front. I hope that the verbal estimates are only for the first few hours; Nick S. gave me the impression it was for a few days. .I got the figure of 15% from the Team Briefing Sheet, CFMU is not the most reliable institution.. .Eye, I understand your frustration, we have exactly the same problems with traffic crossing. Unfortunately the sometimes cavalier attitude of the negotiators from your side leaves a lot to be desired, being more a list of demands rather than a starting point for discussion - the minutes were once sent out with the UK side's notes still attached saying, " This is what we agreed, however we will do it as we originally wanted."
Anyway, Good Luck to all of you as you boldly go where no man has ever gone before.
Anyway, Good Luck to all of you as you boldly go where no man has ever gone before.
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Lon More: Thanks for your input. With regard to the negotiators, all I can say is that I am not surprised that they put your backs up. They do ours, as well. There was as far as I am aware NO consultation of operational staff before they came up with this FLAS and more often than not the first we hear of any negotiation is when a new SI or TOI is issued with 'Instructions to ATCOs'. Still, with Pat the Hat in charge things can only get better...!! <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
On a related issue to NSEA, I wonder whether the airlines have been made fully aware of the implications of the staff shortages which prevent us from opening both Sector 11 and 33 at the same time. The TSF for each sector when split is in the mid 30s per hour, giving an hourly capacity of approx 64 aircraft per hour for this part of the London ACC. However, when they are bandboxed (as they have to be as we have insufficient staff) the combined capacity is in the mid 30s. So what this actually means is that the NSEA sector is planned to run for the foreseeable future at a little above 50% of its published (?promised?) capacity. But the airlines are assured that delays will be short term only...
Thanks for the good wishes.. I'm sure it will all go swimmingly!!
On a related issue to NSEA, I wonder whether the airlines have been made fully aware of the implications of the staff shortages which prevent us from opening both Sector 11 and 33 at the same time. The TSF for each sector when split is in the mid 30s per hour, giving an hourly capacity of approx 64 aircraft per hour for this part of the London ACC. However, when they are bandboxed (as they have to be as we have insufficient staff) the combined capacity is in the mid 30s. So what this actually means is that the NSEA sector is planned to run for the foreseeable future at a little above 50% of its published (?promised?) capacity. But the airlines are assured that delays will be short term only...
Thanks for the good wishes.. I'm sure it will all go swimmingly!!