New TWR at LHR?
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 4,432
Likes: 33
From: LHR/EGLL
26L,
With respect, are you familiar with the ATSA task at Heathrow?
Until SAMOS comes in, the assistants record the ATIS manually. Earlier this year, it was determined that the tower ATSAs were too busy to record the ATIS themselves, so that's now the job of our Flight Briefing Unit. I don't know anyone who seems to think that running SAMOS will take less time than recording the ATIS.
With respect, are you familiar with the ATSA task at Heathrow?
Until SAMOS comes in, the assistants record the ATIS manually. Earlier this year, it was determined that the tower ATSAs were too busy to record the ATIS themselves, so that's now the job of our Flight Briefing Unit. I don't know anyone who seems to think that running SAMOS will take less time than recording the ATIS.
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,684
Likes: 3
From: Down at the sharp pointy end, where all the weather is made.
The SAMOS set-up at Gatwick has worked very well and I can't imagine why it shouldn't work just as well up the road, from a technical point of view. Speaking as a 'customer' (although I personally prefer to regard our working relationship as a partnership) the whole thing provides an excellent service.
I know no-one likes change, but this one definitely seems for the better.
The Odd One.
I know no-one likes change, but this one definitely seems for the better.
The Odd One.
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
From: Costa del Hampshire
26left
Sorry – this is no rant. This is my normal, calm (schizophrenic) mode of expression!!
Although provision of SAMOS by ATSAs may be OK for the smaller UK airfields, EGLL doesn’t fall into this category. It’s far busier – or haven’t you noticed? The EGLL ATSA workforce has just been reduced, and this on top of the fact (as pointed out by Gonzo, an EGLL ATCO, I believe) that the VCR ATSAs are already identified as having more work to do than the pre-reduction staffing level catered for - hence the ATIS being currently prepared in their Flight Briefing Unit. Adding additional tasks to a depleted workforce is asking for trouble, both for the ATSAs, and by inference, for the ATCOs as well. The “element of job protection by task combining” counts for jack !!!!! if there aren’t enough staff or available man-hours to carry out even the original tasks in the first place, let alone the new additional ones! DOH!!
TheOddOne (or should that be “Howdy Pardner!”)
Who said anything about not liking change? Are you implying that the EGLL ATSAs themselves are being awkward/difficult about this? I happen to agree with you, (and I am sure that the EGLL ATSAs will too) – “from a technical point of view” SAMOS will work perfectly well at EGLL – provided that the ATSA staffing and training issues are addressed first! “Change” itself is not the issue here.
I wonder what you, the LGW ODM, (the customer!), would think if your beloved airfield ground to a complete halt because of an airfield incident directly attributable to incorrect SAMOS information being relayed by an ATSA who was found to have received insufficient training? I don’t think our “partnership” would last too long after that!
Gonzo -
I am informed by my EGLL ATSA friends (non-ppruners, I may add, but they know who you are!) that you're a good egg (for an ATCO!), and are respected for your support shown to them on what are usually considered "trivial" ATSA matters by some of your colleagues. For what it's worth, thanks - these days, any ATCO support for the ATSAs at any NATS location is most welcome, and earns a brownie point in our book!
Sorry – this is no rant. This is my normal, calm (schizophrenic) mode of expression!!
Although provision of SAMOS by ATSAs may be OK for the smaller UK airfields, EGLL doesn’t fall into this category. It’s far busier – or haven’t you noticed? The EGLL ATSA workforce has just been reduced, and this on top of the fact (as pointed out by Gonzo, an EGLL ATCO, I believe) that the VCR ATSAs are already identified as having more work to do than the pre-reduction staffing level catered for - hence the ATIS being currently prepared in their Flight Briefing Unit. Adding additional tasks to a depleted workforce is asking for trouble, both for the ATSAs, and by inference, for the ATCOs as well. The “element of job protection by task combining” counts for jack !!!!! if there aren’t enough staff or available man-hours to carry out even the original tasks in the first place, let alone the new additional ones! DOH!!
TheOddOne (or should that be “Howdy Pardner!”)
Who said anything about not liking change? Are you implying that the EGLL ATSAs themselves are being awkward/difficult about this? I happen to agree with you, (and I am sure that the EGLL ATSAs will too) – “from a technical point of view” SAMOS will work perfectly well at EGLL – provided that the ATSA staffing and training issues are addressed first! “Change” itself is not the issue here.
I wonder what you, the LGW ODM, (the customer!), would think if your beloved airfield ground to a complete halt because of an airfield incident directly attributable to incorrect SAMOS information being relayed by an ATSA who was found to have received insufficient training? I don’t think our “partnership” would last too long after that!
Gonzo -
I am informed by my EGLL ATSA friends (non-ppruners, I may add, but they know who you are!) that you're a good egg (for an ATCO!), and are respected for your support shown to them on what are usually considered "trivial" ATSA matters by some of your colleagues. For what it's worth, thanks - these days, any ATCO support for the ATSAs at any NATS location is most welcome, and earns a brownie point in our book!
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,684
Likes: 3
From: Down at the sharp pointy end, where all the weather is made.
Connex,
Well, all I can say is that this hasn't happened here. The most extreme scenario I suppose would be incorrect reporting of altimeter pressure settings causing an accident. At LGW, mis-reporting of cloud ceiling or visibility when we're on Northern Runway Ops could lead to severe difficulty, because it's a visual runway using SRA. Thankfully, perhaps because of the way SAMOS was introduced here, it's worked out well, from the outside looking in, at least.
I try not to be drawn on the 'big airport - little airport' debate, having worked at both locations - LHR was smaller when I worked there not so many years ago than LGW is now. LGW is now the world's busiest single-runway airport by a huge margin - 31 million pax and 275,000 ATM per year. Our NATS unit does a superb job, they make it all seem so easy when I know it isn't sometimes.
The Odd One
airfield ground to a complete halt because of an airfield incident directly attributable to incorrect SAMOS information being relayed by an ATSA who was found to have received insufficient training?
I try not to be drawn on the 'big airport - little airport' debate, having worked at both locations - LHR was smaller when I worked there not so many years ago than LGW is now. LGW is now the world's busiest single-runway airport by a huge margin - 31 million pax and 275,000 ATM per year. Our NATS unit does a superb job, they make it all seem so easy when I know it isn't sometimes.
The Odd One
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 4,432
Likes: 33
From: LHR/EGLL
Connex, thank you.
I don't think anyone is doubting that with the right training Heathrow ATSAs could do a good job.
The main problem as I see it is the time issue. We've all been told that preparing the weather with SAMOS takes priority over any other task. That's fine with us too, all that will happen if someone calls me up on delivery with a flight plan query, or wants a ready message sent, I'll just be saying: "Standby, delay undetermined due staff shortage". If the other ATSA is doing the weather, and i'm on ground, I'll be asking for 6 miles spacing inbound for the duration of the ATSA's absence, as I have to do my own strips and sort out what stand they've been allocated.
As I understand it, they're even having problems arranging someone to deliver the training. It's quite ironic that if they end up having to send ATSAs down to Exeter for a course, they don't have enough staff to release anyone!
I don't think anyone is doubting that with the right training Heathrow ATSAs could do a good job.
The main problem as I see it is the time issue. We've all been told that preparing the weather with SAMOS takes priority over any other task. That's fine with us too, all that will happen if someone calls me up on delivery with a flight plan query, or wants a ready message sent, I'll just be saying: "Standby, delay undetermined due staff shortage". If the other ATSA is doing the weather, and i'm on ground, I'll be asking for 6 miles spacing inbound for the duration of the ATSA's absence, as I have to do my own strips and sort out what stand they've been allocated.
As I understand it, they're even having problems arranging someone to deliver the training. It's quite ironic that if they end up having to send ATSAs down to Exeter for a course, they don't have enough staff to release anyone!
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
From: South-ish
Heathrow Tower
New Tower looks like one of those fancy solar garden lights that you stick in your grass.
Guess what? it will be held up by wire stays.
You guys in the fish bowl are gonna get real sick in a high wind with up to 5 metres of sway. You'll need chairs on gimbals
Guess what? it will be held up by wire stays.
You guys in the fish bowl are gonna get real sick in a high wind with up to 5 metres of sway. You'll need chairs on gimbals
