New TWR at LHR?
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Talkdown Man
"Perhaps Shack can re-kindle a fading memory too."
Cheeky s@d!!
The only time I can remember JK getting what he deserved was one day we came in for a Watch changeover and JK was sitting in No.2 and PBS took over No.1 and threw everything at JK and none of us would relieve him. No stories about casinos that day!!
As for take offs Paddy H had a BOAC 707 following a DC3 same route, can't remember the time needed but it was a lot. Paddy has the 707 lined up and says if I let you go will you close your eyes and not open them until I tell you. Yes says God, so Paddy lets him go and watches until the 707 is higher than the DC3 then says OK you can open your eyes now.
Thoughts of the old tower, happy days in the 60's when the female assistants had mini skirts, what a pleasure it was to follow them up the stairs to the VCR.
My Watch supervisior at the time would often disappear and we could not find him until one day somebody caught him coming out of the small door that was/is halfway up the stairs to the VCR, the entrance to a void under the VCR floor. The deduction was that he was looking up through the cracks in the floor at the delights of the young assistants.
Does anybody ever explore the mass of tunnels under the central area these days? You could enter through a small room in the base of the tower and get to all the terminals through tunnels that carried heating pipes and other services. There were access points all over with ladders leading up to exits, Skinhead went up one day to find a large heavy cover at the top which he attempted to push up, luckily it was heavy so he could only raise it very slighty---he was coming up in the middle of the road between the tower and what was to be terminal 3.
Happy days.
"Perhaps Shack can re-kindle a fading memory too."
Cheeky s@d!!
The only time I can remember JK getting what he deserved was one day we came in for a Watch changeover and JK was sitting in No.2 and PBS took over No.1 and threw everything at JK and none of us would relieve him. No stories about casinos that day!!
As for take offs Paddy H had a BOAC 707 following a DC3 same route, can't remember the time needed but it was a lot. Paddy has the 707 lined up and says if I let you go will you close your eyes and not open them until I tell you. Yes says God, so Paddy lets him go and watches until the 707 is higher than the DC3 then says OK you can open your eyes now.
Thoughts of the old tower, happy days in the 60's when the female assistants had mini skirts, what a pleasure it was to follow them up the stairs to the VCR.
My Watch supervisior at the time would often disappear and we could not find him until one day somebody caught him coming out of the small door that was/is halfway up the stairs to the VCR, the entrance to a void under the VCR floor. The deduction was that he was looking up through the cracks in the floor at the delights of the young assistants.
Does anybody ever explore the mass of tunnels under the central area these days? You could enter through a small room in the base of the tower and get to all the terminals through tunnels that carried heating pipes and other services. There were access points all over with ladders leading up to exits, Skinhead went up one day to find a large heavy cover at the top which he attempted to push up, luckily it was heavy so he could only raise it very slighty---he was coming up in the middle of the road between the tower and what was to be terminal 3.
Happy days.
Join Date: Dec 2000
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No ..... but it will mean that they can see that you're lying when you say you're fully ready with doors still open
- that is unless you're out of sight at T4
- that is unless you're out of sight at T4
Join Date: Dec 1999
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D-ATIS is coming next Spring (finally)....although it's all part of a package (SAMOS) where our assistant colleagues will have to take weather readings when they would otherwise be sorting out your flight plans, calling flow control to get you a better slot, calling stand allocation to ask them to give you a vacant stand, so you might not be so enthusiastic when you get delayed because they need to put out a weather report!
PDC will be integral to our electronic strips (EFPS), so yes it will be in the new tower, if EFPS is ever made to work...........
And the view across to T1 and T2 will be the same as we have now, we'll be much higher, but much further away!
PDC will be integral to our electronic strips (EFPS), so yes it will be in the new tower, if EFPS is ever made to work...........
And the view across to T1 and T2 will be the same as we have now, we'll be much higher, but much further away!
And the view across to T1 and T2 will be the same as we have now, we'll be much higher, but much further away!
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<<where our assistant colleagues will have to take weather readings when they would otherwise be sorting out your flight plans>>
What's happening to the North Side Met Office then??
What's happening to the North Side Met Office then??
Join Date: Dec 1999
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It is going. NATS said to BAA that they could provide a met service for a lot less money than the Met Office charge.
I wonder if anyone actually mentioned to the BAA (and the airlines) that it won't be the same level of service?
No offence to my ATSA colleagues, but even if they were sent on a full Met Observer course (which is not going to be the case at the moment), having a dedicated Met Office with it's associated weather radars, link to the main Met Office at Exeter etc has got to be a higher quality service than what is being offered by NATS.
We don't even have a weather radar!
I wonder if anyone actually mentioned to the BAA (and the airlines) that it won't be the same level of service?
No offence to my ATSA colleagues, but even if they were sent on a full Met Observer course (which is not going to be the case at the moment), having a dedicated Met Office with it's associated weather radars, link to the main Met Office at Exeter etc has got to be a higher quality service than what is being offered by NATS.
We don't even have a weather radar!
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<<It is going. NATS said to BAA that they could provide a met service for a lot less money than the Met Office charge.>>
I wonder which genius arrived at that decision? Presumably Heathrow will then be a major international airport where the met observations are provided by unqualified staff!
What happens in marginal conditions - the word of the Met Obs can determine whether LVPs are introduced. Are they going to trust unqualified staff to make such decisions? I was one of the first UK ATCOs to undergo training for a Met Observers Certificate so that proper obs could be provided at my airfield and I know that it is very hard indeed to combine the two jobs..
Wonder what the airlines think?
I wonder which genius arrived at that decision? Presumably Heathrow will then be a major international airport where the met observations are provided by unqualified staff!
What happens in marginal conditions - the word of the Met Obs can determine whether LVPs are introduced. Are they going to trust unqualified staff to make such decisions? I was one of the first UK ATCOs to undergo training for a Met Observers Certificate so that proper obs could be provided at my airfield and I know that it is very hard indeed to combine the two jobs..
Wonder what the airlines think?
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Don't mean to sound similar, but its probably the first that the people who fly know about it!
Luckily our ATSA's do a good job and I would like to think they are pretty much spot on. ( Although i wouldn't have a clue ) my knowledge of clouds goes bout as far as 'Fluffy' and 'Wet'. What other kind can there be??
Luckily our ATSA's do a good job and I would like to think they are pretty much spot on. ( Although i wouldn't have a clue ) my knowledge of clouds goes bout as far as 'Fluffy' and 'Wet'. What other kind can there be??
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It's certainly going to be interesting when the weather gets crappy and the weather constantly needs updating. Depending on which ATSA does the weather, there'll be outrageous start-up delays because we won't have any flightplans in front of us, or we'll have to put on severe inbound flow because the Ground controllers won't be getting any inbound details.
I'm sure it is!
Don't mean to sound similar, but its probably the first that the people who fly know about it!
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Wonder what the airlines think?
Dunno about the airlines, but a pilot recently said to me
'all we look for on the METAR is for an RVR >125M' Ditto the TAF. Don't really care about the rest!'
Actually, I bet he does when it's freezing rain and temps below zero, but most of the time, he's probably right.
How things move on. The rot set in when they removed the cloud type (apart from CB) from the wx about 10 years ago.
We've had automated METAR reporting at our little airfield in Sussex for a few years now. It's automatically fed into the ATIS and an assistant looks out of the window to make sure it makes sense. There are 2 automatic Vaisala weather stations out on the airfield and I must say they are very reliable. My understanding is that Exeter take the most recent 3 METAR when compiling the TAF. The ATC watch manager makes decisions about LVPs and runway direction in use based on the criteria in MATS Pt 2. We seem to have managed pretty well without a Met observer for quite some time - unless someone else is going to say different?
Personally the main use I had for the Met observer was to find out the temp of their deep sensor when making decisions about ant-icing the airfield, but we have our own sensors now.
I know LHR have additional complexities with crosswind and runway in use issues due to the Central Terminal Area. We get the same, of course, with the hangars (Laker's revenge!) but don't have the luxury of another runway to swap over to. We probably get more go-arounds as a result, though, so it's more disruptive.
The wx is... well, whatever it is. If the automatic observations are accurate, I can't see the point of having a locally-based observer. I've always found the aerodromes forecaster at Bracknell/Exeter EXTREMELY helpful, provided you've got the TAF or wx warning in front of you.
Cheers,
The Odd One
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<<my knowledge of clouds goes bout as far as 'Fluffy' and 'Wet'. What other kind can there be??>>
Well there's something apparently called Cumulo Bumpulus which makes pilots voices go three octaves higher if they have to fly through it!
Well there's something apparently called Cumulo Bumpulus which makes pilots voices go three octaves higher if they have to fly through it!
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Yeah, sorry J.. I also recall popping into the Met Office on the 1st floor where a forecaster wearing a sports jacket and smoking a pipe would peer at his hand-drawn charts and say "westerlies until 16.02, then easterlies"... and at 16.02 the wind would go round.
Still, I expect our ATCA friends are rubbing their hands - imagine all the extra dosh they'll be earning for doing two jobs..
Still, I expect our ATCA friends are rubbing their hands - imagine all the extra dosh they'll be earning for doing two jobs..
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Still, I expect our ATCA friends are rubbing their hands - imagine all the extra dosh they'll be earning for doing two jobs..
...ive heard we will be getting an extra £6 per week in luncheon vouchers!
...ive heard we will be getting an extra £6 per week in luncheon vouchers!
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I don't like where this ATSA/Met Obs issue is going. Sounds like the ATSA boys and girls at EGLL are going to be saddled with a task the effects of which have not been thoroughly researched prior to introduction. I am also (reliably!) informed that there's no comprehensive training plan in the pipeline, and there is the potential for a staffing issue to boot!! A fantastic position to be in prior to introduction of a new piece of kit!
What's the knock-on effect on the EGLL ATCOs if they haven't got an ATSA working alongside? Who's requirement takes precedent - supplying info for the ATCOs, or provision of the Met report? Is PCS looking at this? Is Prospect looking at it? (I very much doubt THAT one!!)
I also note HD's comments about unqualified staff/additional pay. He's quite right - in the absence of a professional qualification/licence, who's going to trust what's going out on the Met broadcast if it is known that those providing it have been prepared for the task in such an amateurish, cheapskate and shoddy manner? And what about the issue of responsibility in the event of an incident which can be attributed to incorrect Met info - will the ATSA involved be personally liable to prosecution?
As for the additional money issue - I fully expect NATS to pay the EGLL ATSAs sweet F*** All for the additional responsibility.
I look forward to hearing from our EGLL colleagues, ATCO and ATSA alike, as to how this situation develops. Sounds like its going to affect you all, one way or the other.
Oh, and by the way, how's the plans for implementation of EFPS in the new Tower going? Have the ATSAs been as deeply involved with this project as they have (!) with the Met issue? I would expect all ATSAs to have to undergo a Practical First Aid course - just to be legally able to dispense the paracetamol in vast quantities to all the brain f***ed ATCOs who will be dropping like flies on their all-singing, all-dancing EFPS consoles!!
I hope the powers-that-be at the "Tower of London" have had the good sense and foresight to look at the potential problems that may arise with the introduction of new technology in their new glasshouse. I also hope they've had the common sense to sort out some possible resolutions to these issues BEFORE the sh*t eventually hits the fan - because, one day, it most certainly will!
In the light of last week's news report on the dangers of control of aircraft on the ground, this lot has the makings of a good BBC documentary, methinks!
What's the knock-on effect on the EGLL ATCOs if they haven't got an ATSA working alongside? Who's requirement takes precedent - supplying info for the ATCOs, or provision of the Met report? Is PCS looking at this? Is Prospect looking at it? (I very much doubt THAT one!!)
I also note HD's comments about unqualified staff/additional pay. He's quite right - in the absence of a professional qualification/licence, who's going to trust what's going out on the Met broadcast if it is known that those providing it have been prepared for the task in such an amateurish, cheapskate and shoddy manner? And what about the issue of responsibility in the event of an incident which can be attributed to incorrect Met info - will the ATSA involved be personally liable to prosecution?
As for the additional money issue - I fully expect NATS to pay the EGLL ATSAs sweet F*** All for the additional responsibility.
I look forward to hearing from our EGLL colleagues, ATCO and ATSA alike, as to how this situation develops. Sounds like its going to affect you all, one way or the other.
Oh, and by the way, how's the plans for implementation of EFPS in the new Tower going? Have the ATSAs been as deeply involved with this project as they have (!) with the Met issue? I would expect all ATSAs to have to undergo a Practical First Aid course - just to be legally able to dispense the paracetamol in vast quantities to all the brain f***ed ATCOs who will be dropping like flies on their all-singing, all-dancing EFPS consoles!!
I hope the powers-that-be at the "Tower of London" have had the good sense and foresight to look at the potential problems that may arise with the introduction of new technology in their new glasshouse. I also hope they've had the common sense to sort out some possible resolutions to these issues BEFORE the sh*t eventually hits the fan - because, one day, it most certainly will!
In the light of last week's news report on the dangers of control of aircraft on the ground, this lot has the makings of a good BBC documentary, methinks!
Connex in his rant about the EGLL new tower and Met Obs should be aware that NATS have been operating their SAMOS Met Observation reporting systems at Gatwick, Stansted, Birmingham, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Manchester, quite satisfactorily for a number of years now. The tower ATSA's are trained and qualified for a Restricted Met Observers certificate. The training is provided to UKMO standards and the whole SAMOS project was undertaken in cooperation with the UKMO. The equipment monitors the MET changes and recommends to the ATSA , half-hourly reports and SPECIs, which then have to be verified by the qualified ATSA and transmitted to the UKMO for onward distribution.
The result is the provision of a MET observing service that meets ICAO requirements that gives ATSAs an additional qualification and provides an element of Job protection by task combining.
The result is the provision of a MET observing service that meets ICAO requirements that gives ATSAs an additional qualification and provides an element of Job protection by task combining.