A positive approach to NERC and the future
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One of our Maastricht colleagues has mentioned that there may be "Nothing Off the Shelf for large ATCCs".
Help me here Scott, but aren't you running what is basically 9020 software on a new host with nice new displays and new keyboards?
Why couldn't we do that here? Or something similar. Surely the US suppliers would have little difficulty in fulfilling ONE order for 'lil old England when they've completed upgrades at 20 or so US facilities?
??? BEX
Help me here Scott, but aren't you running what is basically 9020 software on a new host with nice new displays and new keyboards?
Why couldn't we do that here? Or something similar. Surely the US suppliers would have little difficulty in fulfilling ONE order for 'lil old England when they've completed upgrades at 20 or so US facilities?
??? BEX
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I heard yesterday that by O date there will be 150 students at NERC waiting to COMMENCE training. As a student probably posted onto the back of this queue in the new year it fills me with dread. What we need is to continue to get bums in seats. A final admission that O date isn't going to happen before october is what we need followed swiftly by the reinstatement of AVC's at LATCC. If this situation continues we will be further behind the curve when the validations start to dry up in two years time as it is also acknowledged that no training will take place for several months when NERC goes on line.
You never know, If I'm really lucky I might get a validation by 2006.
Fingers crossed Eh?
It's worked for NATS for years !!!!!!!!
You never know, If I'm really lucky I might get a validation by 2006.
Fingers crossed Eh?
It's worked for NATS for years !!!!!!!!
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Vlad, I sympathise, really I do.
This topic was about IDEAS for the future and if you have any (YES YOU really can contribute, you never know, fresh minds can come up with the best solutions sometimes) please add them here.
Moans etc, justified as they certainly are can be posted on the other available NERC threads.
Rgds BEX
This topic was about IDEAS for the future and if you have any (YES YOU really can contribute, you never know, fresh minds can come up with the best solutions sometimes) please add them here.
Moans etc, justified as they certainly are can be posted on the other available NERC threads.
Rgds BEX
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Aaaaa oops, BEXIL <G>, we do indeed just have new scopes and the very same old basic assembly language / Jovial software coded for 80K core memory classic software running on faster then greased lighting machines right now... The fact of the matter is that we had to add software to actually slow down the new computer so that the rehosted software could run on it.
This is one of the reasons that our transition went as well as it did. We had to get used to running with new keyboards and trackballs, but other than that, all of the commands were the same...
regards
This is one of the reasons that our transition went as well as it did. We had to get used to running with new keyboards and trackballs, but other than that, all of the commands were the same...
regards
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BEX
Sorry that your reaction to my mention of New Horizons asppeared to cause your pulse to race.....it was a bit of humour! I thought from your initial posts that you wanted some alternative opinions and newbies' ideas as I thought that you were suggesting that we should move forward and be constructive. So I said what I think and am disappointed by your rant/reply....my opinion is going to be that alone, not some eloquent plan for you to go wild about.
It appears that you've never done anything broader in your ATC career than be a watchkeeping ATCO. You appear to be myopic and narrow minded which is a pity but perhaps consistent with the psychological profile of us ATCOs.
I'm going back to my Train Driving Simulator rather than be flamed on here. And you wonder why newbies don't post!
Cheerio
Sorry that your reaction to my mention of New Horizons asppeared to cause your pulse to race.....it was a bit of humour! I thought from your initial posts that you wanted some alternative opinions and newbies' ideas as I thought that you were suggesting that we should move forward and be constructive. So I said what I think and am disappointed by your rant/reply....my opinion is going to be that alone, not some eloquent plan for you to go wild about.
It appears that you've never done anything broader in your ATC career than be a watchkeeping ATCO. You appear to be myopic and narrow minded which is a pity but perhaps consistent with the psychological profile of us ATCOs.
I'm going back to my Train Driving Simulator rather than be flamed on here. And you wonder why newbies don't post!
Cheerio
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Flying Piglet, you obviously don't know Bex. I know many out there who wanna post but just dont know what to say, or if they do, how to say it. This isn't the thread to ostrasize anyone; listen, read, and maybe we can all learn and try to improve on the current bollox situation we appear to be in.
FlyingPiglet
Thanks for your contribution. I had always supected that New Horizons was a bit of humour, but was never totally sure. Now you seem to confirm it. Let's just say that the "joke" was a bit obscure for many, and has perhaps out-lived its allotted time.
Now what about New Dawn ???
Thanks for your contribution. I had always supected that New Horizons was a bit of humour, but was never totally sure. Now you seem to confirm it. Let's just say that the "joke" was a bit obscure for many, and has perhaps out-lived its allotted time.
Now what about New Dawn ???
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Whats wrong with just being a " Watch keeping ATCO" it's what I joined for over twenty years ago, if I had wanted to be anything else I would have joined M&S or an accountancy firm
AyrTC
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I can't believe anyone would suggest there's anything at all wrong with being a watchkeeping ATCO/ATSA/techie/line pilot. But when 'suit versions' are referred to by colleagues as screwing things up such as NERC I have some sympathy as it's a real world out there full of politics and compromise unlike the ops room (?!).
HB
HB
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Piglet...
To you, it may appear that I've done nothing more important than being one of those watch keeping ATCOs that you appear to detest so much. Other people know better.
Myopic? Possibly something to do with the NERC displays? Narrow minded? No, I just see the "big picture" from a different perspective, not a Rose Tinted one.
I am not willing to justify the "old NATS", and yes I do want to look forward. My contention is that here is a golden opportunity to do something for the future. The immediate past has many lessons, most of which are along the lines of "This is the way not to do it".
To everyone else...
Here's a radical and I hope constructive thought. What NATS could really do with is a few charismatic LEADERS. The current management techniques employed by NATS (and other industries) do not emphasize this trait very much at all. It is my belief that the Operational Staff, given proper LEADERSHIP, would certainly behave very differently and who knows what we might be able to achieve?
So how do we cultivate / teach / employ leaders? Haven't a clue, but we all know good leadership when we experience it. Any ideas?
Rgds BEX
To you, it may appear that I've done nothing more important than being one of those watch keeping ATCOs that you appear to detest so much. Other people know better.
Myopic? Possibly something to do with the NERC displays? Narrow minded? No, I just see the "big picture" from a different perspective, not a Rose Tinted one.
I am not willing to justify the "old NATS", and yes I do want to look forward. My contention is that here is a golden opportunity to do something for the future. The immediate past has many lessons, most of which are along the lines of "This is the way not to do it".
To everyone else...
Here's a radical and I hope constructive thought. What NATS could really do with is a few charismatic LEADERS. The current management techniques employed by NATS (and other industries) do not emphasize this trait very much at all. It is my belief that the Operational Staff, given proper LEADERSHIP, would certainly behave very differently and who knows what we might be able to achieve?
So how do we cultivate / teach / employ leaders? Haven't a clue, but we all know good leadership when we experience it. Any ideas?
Rgds BEX
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Picking up on Bex's last point...
let the "shop floor" staff elect (or some other method) the managers!
stop promoting people who are a) crap at controlling and b)good at talking bulls**t
let the "shop floor" staff elect (or some other method) the managers!
stop promoting people who are a) crap at controlling and b)good at talking bulls**t
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I'm not sure that the shop floor should elect our managers but I certainly agree with BEX's sentiment that what is required is leadership.
Managers are two a penny and most people can do the managerial bits; few can do the motivational and inspirational stuff.
I have a hope that once TAG get stuck in then perhaps we shall see potential leaders elevated to the offices of where the current managers reside. Until then, selection of successors and colleagues is hugely biased towards those emulating the characteristics of those doing the selection....hence the lack of true leaders.
Jan
Managers are two a penny and most people can do the managerial bits; few can do the motivational and inspirational stuff.
I have a hope that once TAG get stuck in then perhaps we shall see potential leaders elevated to the offices of where the current managers reside. Until then, selection of successors and colleagues is hugely biased towards those emulating the characteristics of those doing the selection....hence the lack of true leaders.
Jan
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Hmmmmmmmm, interesting... On this side of the pond we have had folks in the management ranks (the ones with a whole one or two years experience as controllers) describe us as the lower skill set, or only entry level positions. <sigh> Oh well, I guess that in other professions, those who practice law if they don't aspire to be judges are only the lower skill set. Same with doctors who decide that they enjoy doing general practice and not go into a specialty or heaven forbid hospital management.
I look as being a controller is a position to aspire to. Be a GOOD controller within your unit and then aspire to be a GREAT trainer to ensure that the knowledge you have get to get handed down to the new folks starting out. Doing anything outside of the control room is something that does indeed need to get done, but it is a secondary SUPPORT role to aviation and air traffic control. One thing that we point out here. During the strike that took place in 81, we emptied all of the staff offices in the facilities and the regional offices. Granted, we didn't come up with new letters of aggreement or routings etc... But everything ran just fine in the ops room with no one in the offices... Try that the other way around????
regards
I look as being a controller is a position to aspire to. Be a GOOD controller within your unit and then aspire to be a GREAT trainer to ensure that the knowledge you have get to get handed down to the new folks starting out. Doing anything outside of the control room is something that does indeed need to get done, but it is a secondary SUPPORT role to aviation and air traffic control. One thing that we point out here. During the strike that took place in 81, we emptied all of the staff offices in the facilities and the regional offices. Granted, we didn't come up with new letters of aggreement or routings etc... But everything ran just fine in the ops room with no one in the offices... Try that the other way around????
regards
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Hi, Bex,
"Help me here Scott, but aren't you running what is basically 9020 software on a new host with nice new displays and new keyboards?"
This is actually what we are doing at NERC!
Pipkin
"Help me here Scott, but aren't you running what is basically 9020 software on a new host with nice new displays and new keyboards?"
This is actually what we are doing at NERC!
Pipkin
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Hi, Folks,
Almost my debut performance!
In the spirit in which the thread was started, here is an actual IDEA.
In the short-term, Assistants have a vast amount of experience and expertise which is underused. OK, there are some turkeys too, but broadly speaking I think I'm right. There are two approaches to the mismatch:-
1. The Bean Counter - These people are overpaid - get rid of them.
2. The Positive Manager - We are not using these people to their potential - train them to do as much as they can without a licence and really make them part of the team. I don't just mean the AIS bone. Train us NOW to do whatever we can at NERC. I certainly don't want to be an overpaid strip ripper: I want to get involved, and think I'm being paid plenty already to do just that. Just think of the Planner time and attention which could be freed up.
The pseudopilots are worried about what they are going to do come O date. We are going to need strip-bashing floorwalkers - slot them in there.
That's the short-term. In the long term, where is the continued justification for the "Officers and Enlisted" attitude? The old National Service people have gone. Isn't it about time to change to a straight through structure? Everyone joins as an Assistant, then goes as far as they can in incremental steps.
As far as the leap to a licence is concerned, much of the college classroom work could be done by distance learning. Don't fancy it? Want to get paid extra for it? Hey, it's YOUR career you're developing, and no-one's forcing you. That leaves the radar practicals, and the AVC, or whatever it's called by then. Wastege rates will be lower, because you're dealing with folks who already have some years of experience in the atmosphere and modes of thought.
Of course we all know Assistants who've got class-to-class and not made it, but we know many more who have, and their pass rate is much higher than average.
And, BTW, I'm beyond the sell-by date to benefit from any changes in this direction!
Pipkin
Almost my debut performance!
In the spirit in which the thread was started, here is an actual IDEA.
In the short-term, Assistants have a vast amount of experience and expertise which is underused. OK, there are some turkeys too, but broadly speaking I think I'm right. There are two approaches to the mismatch:-
1. The Bean Counter - These people are overpaid - get rid of them.
2. The Positive Manager - We are not using these people to their potential - train them to do as much as they can without a licence and really make them part of the team. I don't just mean the AIS bone. Train us NOW to do whatever we can at NERC. I certainly don't want to be an overpaid strip ripper: I want to get involved, and think I'm being paid plenty already to do just that. Just think of the Planner time and attention which could be freed up.
The pseudopilots are worried about what they are going to do come O date. We are going to need strip-bashing floorwalkers - slot them in there.
That's the short-term. In the long term, where is the continued justification for the "Officers and Enlisted" attitude? The old National Service people have gone. Isn't it about time to change to a straight through structure? Everyone joins as an Assistant, then goes as far as they can in incremental steps.
As far as the leap to a licence is concerned, much of the college classroom work could be done by distance learning. Don't fancy it? Want to get paid extra for it? Hey, it's YOUR career you're developing, and no-one's forcing you. That leaves the radar practicals, and the AVC, or whatever it's called by then. Wastege rates will be lower, because you're dealing with folks who already have some years of experience in the atmosphere and modes of thought.
Of course we all know Assistants who've got class-to-class and not made it, but we know many more who have, and their pass rate is much higher than average.
And, BTW, I'm beyond the sell-by date to benefit from any changes in this direction!
Pipkin
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Uncle Pip,
Excellent, some useful ideas and I hope others will post as well.
One thing though, you said NERC was running basically 9020 software. Explain please. I was under the impression that NERC's individual workstations (with their own software and MOPS) were separate from good old NAS, which remains at LATCC.
Rgds BEX.
Excellent, some useful ideas and I hope others will post as well.
One thing though, you said NERC was running basically 9020 software. Explain please. I was under the impression that NERC's individual workstations (with their own software and MOPS) were separate from good old NAS, which remains at LATCC.
Rgds BEX.
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I will take Bexil160 up on his(?) offer for others to post their ideas.
When I think about how NERC will eventually get switched on, I wonder about two questions:
1) What happens on the day? I think there is one view that the watch on duty drive to Swanwick rather then LATCC, and perform their duties as usual. OTOH, I've seen mention of various ramp-up approaches (e.g., load restrictions, moving just a few sectors to NERC to start). What's the real plan? Is there a way to soften the impact of the transition
2) What happens when something goes wrong? You can envision a long list of potential problems, from the trivial to the horrifying. I'm talking here about NERC transition specific problems, things occurring in the short term just after O-date, and so probably not covered by the standard procedures. Do we know what the list of problems looks like, what the response to each should be, and who makes the real-time decisions involved in tht response?
When I think about how NERC will eventually get switched on, I wonder about two questions:
1) What happens on the day? I think there is one view that the watch on duty drive to Swanwick rather then LATCC, and perform their duties as usual. OTOH, I've seen mention of various ramp-up approaches (e.g., load restrictions, moving just a few sectors to NERC to start). What's the real plan? Is there a way to soften the impact of the transition
2) What happens when something goes wrong? You can envision a long list of potential problems, from the trivial to the horrifying. I'm talking here about NERC transition specific problems, things occurring in the short term just after O-date, and so probably not covered by the standard procedures. Do we know what the list of problems looks like, what the response to each should be, and who makes the real-time decisions involved in tht response?
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Dinosaur....
Two very valid questions, to which I also would like to know the answers.
Anyone out there got any positive answers or solutions? Because thats what we (the operational staff) really need.
BEX
Two very valid questions, to which I also would like to know the answers.
Anyone out there got any positive answers or solutions? Because thats what we (the operational staff) really need.
BEX
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The plan was for NERC to have its own 'FDP' server and each workstation sub-versions. But all the Flight Data comes down the NAS link from LATCC's Host Computer System.
HCS was supposed to be upgraded to 4381s for Y2K purposes to replace the 9020D. Not sure whether NATS ever did this upgrade but it still runs on '9020 software' in effect.
NERC's rather more than a Display System Replacement and utilises a fair bit of the failed Advanced Automation System software I believe.
Once upon a time I saw pix of the new FAA workstations post-AAS pre-DSR which appeared to show great big (paper) stripboards plonked over the Planner's (NERC parlance) screens. No doubt the NERC doubters are looking forward to seeing the same at an ATCC near you shortly! True or false Scott?
HCS was supposed to be upgraded to 4381s for Y2K purposes to replace the 9020D. Not sure whether NATS ever did this upgrade but it still runs on '9020 software' in effect.
NERC's rather more than a Display System Replacement and utilises a fair bit of the failed Advanced Automation System software I believe.
Once upon a time I saw pix of the new FAA workstations post-AAS pre-DSR which appeared to show great big (paper) stripboards plonked over the Planner's (NERC parlance) screens. No doubt the NERC doubters are looking forward to seeing the same at an ATCC near you shortly! True or false Scott?