NATS Pay/WP
Join Date: Feb 2004
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How do u get 50 pilots into the cockpit of a 777? if you want to compare like for like 
the movements arent the real issue. The model is not right and all our futures are being based on it.
the movements arent the real issue. The model is not right and all our futures are being based on it.
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Captain Windsock,
What's an ATP72?????
With the large mix of Jet and Prop traffic we have at PF, I've never seen or heard of one? Is it a cross between an ATP and an ATR72?
What's an ATP72?????
With the large mix of Jet and Prop traffic we have at PF, I've never seen or heard of one? Is it a cross between an ATP and an ATR72?
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Slippers are you telling us you want us to remove the four approach unit movements as their controllers dont count????
Slippers quote
It should be remembered that the LTCC staff number includes the four approach units and Thames Radar that are stationed there as well.
The number of area ATCO's is roughly 150
You are a team player??? Or is this further proof of the me, me, me culture down south.
Slippers quote
It should be remembered that the LTCC staff number includes the four approach units and Thames Radar that are stationed there as well.
The number of area ATCO's is roughly 150
You are a team player??? Or is this further proof of the me, me, me culture down south.
Join Date: Aug 2000
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As I have said before this is the first stab at getting this in and it will never be perfect at the first attempt. But if this deal is thrown out we go back to square one and I believe that the BEC would have no choice but to resign as would all of the unit reps who, I understand UNANIMOUSLY endorsed the BEC in November at the conference.
So where would that leave us?
No AAVA deal and therefore almost certainly delays this summer that could cost NATS upto £10m-Good for us-NO
A basic pay offer that is below what is on the table for us at present-good for us-NO
The loss of years of negotiating experience and knowledge on the BEC-good for us-NO
The ability for management to introduce some of the WP changes within the present structure at no cost to them-good for us-NO.
Management will still target the units where they need the service delivery improvements and without central representation would make a start at targetting the cash at those units only-good for us-NO
Financial loss for EVERY ATCO in NATS and that money that is lost is not just this year but for the whole of your career-good for us-NO
Get the principle of the structure in place and then address all the thorny issues and if those units that have the problems are right then they will be able to prove it and NATS will have no option but to recompense them accordingly. vote it down and managment really will divide and conquer especially with no central team in place.
So where would that leave us?
No AAVA deal and therefore almost certainly delays this summer that could cost NATS upto £10m-Good for us-NO
A basic pay offer that is below what is on the table for us at present-good for us-NO
The loss of years of negotiating experience and knowledge on the BEC-good for us-NO
The ability for management to introduce some of the WP changes within the present structure at no cost to them-good for us-NO.
Management will still target the units where they need the service delivery improvements and without central representation would make a start at targetting the cash at those units only-good for us-NO
Financial loss for EVERY ATCO in NATS and that money that is lost is not just this year but for the whole of your career-good for us-NO
Get the principle of the structure in place and then address all the thorny issues and if those units that have the problems are right then they will be able to prove it and NATS will have no option but to recompense them accordingly. vote it down and managment really will divide and conquer especially with no central team in place.
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I do agree with you 250kts but what is the harm in delaying the vote and getting it right. Closer at least to right. The problem is it can never be right with the number of issues involved. Lets just hope at some point enough of us agree that it is close enough. I am lead to believe the vote has been delayed for a rethink.
Join Date: Nov 2000
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Someone in the know might have been heard to mutter that an ATCO 1 at the top of the scale at LACC would need to receive 26% extra to compensate for the cost of living to their counterpart at ScATCC (according to the recent official University of London research, they do it every year) - cheap as chips down here, or should that be fries?
Join Date: Aug 2001
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5 Miles , you forget that we enjoy better health , a longer life , a warmer climate and greater Capital Growth than our Northern Bretheren.
At retirement we are far richer than the poor souls up North so let's be compassionate and wait to get this model corrected.
So sorry for the airfields , you've been shafted.
At retirement we are far richer than the poor souls up North so let's be compassionate and wait to get this model corrected.
So sorry for the airfields , you've been shafted.
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WP structure
The 26% to compensate for the cost of living scatcc/lacc comment interests me, was the study done specifically on those two units, or was it for the whole of scotland?? Because as you can tell by the weather forcast each day the whole of scotland is exactly the same!
I think we're missing the point, we shouldn't be focusing on a "mine is bigger/better/busier than yours" atitude, the wp model and pay structure is meant to deliver a transparent fair system, it hasn't achieved that in it's current form and is fundamentally flawed. We should stop fighting amongst each other and direct all this enthusiasm at getting the best for all.
Or is that not selfish enough??
I think we're missing the point, we shouldn't be focusing on a "mine is bigger/better/busier than yours" atitude, the wp model and pay structure is meant to deliver a transparent fair system, it hasn't achieved that in it's current form and is fundamentally flawed. We should stop fighting amongst each other and direct all this enthusiasm at getting the best for all.
Or is that not selfish enough??
Join Date: Nov 2000
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dvdr,
The traffic movement figures are calculated by looking at the number of aircraft that work one or more controllers at the defined unit. An aircarft is not counted twice if it works an TMA controller and then an approach controller. Approach only movements will account for probably less than 1% of the total figure at LTCC. However, the number of approach controllers at the unit has a huge effect on the movements per controller score.
My point was that simply comparing movements per controller is not necessarily the best way of looking at it.
S.
The traffic movement figures are calculated by looking at the number of aircraft that work one or more controllers at the defined unit. An aircarft is not counted twice if it works an TMA controller and then an approach controller. Approach only movements will account for probably less than 1% of the total figure at LTCC. However, the number of approach controllers at the unit has a huge effect on the movements per controller score.
My point was that simply comparing movements per controller is not necessarily the best way of looking at it.
S.
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Slippers, dont get me started on to how long they are on your frequency and what you actually do with them. Some units in the country would love to have your kit and the number of frequencies you have to split sectors.
If the model was easy to read and everyone could understand it, it would be a start Clearly not everyone does, which is leading to unnecessary in fighting. As for conference saying this is fine, the scores shown at conference were nothing like the ones produced in the end. As far as I am concerned you are all controllers in TC not approach and area. Your unit is layed out that way, that is TC's task. What make up of controllers do the job is not relevant. It is just another validation and some of your people do both.
If the model was easy to read and everyone could understand it, it would be a start
Clearly not everyone does, which is leading to unnecessary in fighting. As for conference saying this is fine, the scores shown at conference were nothing like the ones produced in the end. As far as I am concerned you are all controllers in TC not approach and area. Your unit is layed out that way, that is TC's task. What make up of controllers do the job is not relevant. It is just another validation and some of your people do both.
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Vote Now
This is the most comprehensive and well-thought-through deal I have ever seen, can't wait for my voting slip. After a lifetime of working my nuts off a little bit of light shines; maybe there is an end to this tunnel. Well Done Prospect.....the man from del Swanwick, he say YES!
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Just wait to you see the revised model before you say yes. Me personal, never! Well thought out, 
. Not much wrong with percentages just need some adjustment. All I see from this deal in real terms is, if you whinge for years, get other people to do your work, get the most up to date kit, pretend to be sick and then you get what you think you want.
. Not much wrong with percentages just need some adjustment. All I see from this deal in real terms is, if you whinge for years, get other people to do your work, get the most up to date kit, pretend to be sick and then you get what you think you want.
Last edited by dvdr; 9th Feb 2004 at 00:13.
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My Health
dvdr, my record shows 5 days off sick [yes...five] since I joined in 1970....and that was only when I couldn't actually walk. The rest of your description equally does not apply. The guys down here work hard, it is intense and unrelenting. We deserve what we've been offered. We move the metal in spite of this kit, not because of it.
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055166k, Middle Earth et al
Yes, I would have to agree with you, you do.
As do your colleagues at other units. What you have got to remember is that there are a lot of controllers at other units that have passed through LATCC (both valid as well as unsuccessful), and as such, there are a lot of controllers at other units who know exactly how busy and complex you are in comparisson to what they are doing now and thus have more of an informed opinion on this argument.
This is at the root of a lot of peoples anger and frustration at the way LACC is treated compared to everyone else.
You certainly have some very busy, complex airspace and can have periods of intense workload. Your busy traffic can be sustained for long periods, more so, to an extent , than other units, but you are not that much more busy or complex, and your workload isn't that much greater, to the extent portrayed by the unit scores (and by your own estimates - based on what? Your experiences of working at other units??).
The difference in pay between your unit and others at the moment; I think, fairly reflects any differences in workload and complexity and I personally see no justification for widening that gap (taken from a ScATCC perspective, MACC lads & lasses may think differently).
If you are taking on more aspects of WP at this time then, yes, you should get a little extra provided that the same automatically applies when (not if) other units have to go through additional changes to their WPs.
I agree that the BEC negotiated some very good figures and that the WP changes aren't too onerous, but until the method for calculating the the unit scores is revised so that it more accurately and honestly reflects reality, I shall be voting NO in the ballot.
And just as an aside - It was admitted by one or two members of the BEC that they had expected a certain outcome from the results of the model and, lo and behold, when it produced that outcome i.e. LACC and TC way ahead of everyone else, they didn't test the model further, for rigour and robustness.
The guys down here work hard, it is intense and unrelenting.
As do your colleagues at other units. What you have got to remember is that there are a lot of controllers at other units that have passed through LATCC (both valid as well as unsuccessful), and as such, there are a lot of controllers at other units who know exactly how busy and complex you are in comparisson to what they are doing now and thus have more of an informed opinion on this argument.
This is at the root of a lot of peoples anger and frustration at the way LACC is treated compared to everyone else.
You certainly have some very busy, complex airspace and can have periods of intense workload. Your busy traffic can be sustained for long periods, more so, to an extent , than other units, but you are not that much more busy or complex, and your workload isn't that much greater, to the extent portrayed by the unit scores (and by your own estimates - based on what? Your experiences of working at other units??).
The difference in pay between your unit and others at the moment; I think, fairly reflects any differences in workload and complexity and I personally see no justification for widening that gap (taken from a ScATCC perspective, MACC lads & lasses may think differently).
If you are taking on more aspects of WP at this time then, yes, you should get a little extra provided that the same automatically applies when (not if) other units have to go through additional changes to their WPs.
I agree that the BEC negotiated some very good figures and that the WP changes aren't too onerous, but until the method for calculating the the unit scores is revised so that it more accurately and honestly reflects reality, I shall be voting NO in the ballot.
And just as an aside - It was admitted by one or two members of the BEC that they had expected a certain outcome from the results of the model and, lo and behold, when it produced that outcome i.e. LACC and TC way ahead of everyone else, they didn't test the model further, for rigour and robustness.
Last edited by Pheasant Plucker; 10th Feb 2004 at 01:27.
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Dvdr,
That is a scurrilous insinuation towards your colleagues. What evidence do you have that the sickness rate is worse at Swanwick than at any other unit? All units will, at some time, have to close sectors-that is just a consequence of how many staff are available-maybe that is just a situation that exists at Swanwick-if so ask yourself why?
The whingeing that went on was because for 6 years people put their lives on hold-often causing them to lose out"big time" financially whilst NATS tried to get the system up and running. Some spent years commuting up to 80 miles each way and others delayed house moves that they would otherwise have made and lost out in a rising market.
The moving of sectors is purely to help the customers due to this system requiring more staff than we ever had.
As for the kit -well what can I say -it is better than it was but by no means perfect. It has taken a while for people to get used to it but we are getting better.
Staff have been through a lot down here but let's hope that NATS learn from it and help to mitigate problems that people will face when they moved from MACC to Prestwick-doubt it though.
That is a scurrilous insinuation towards your colleagues. What evidence do you have that the sickness rate is worse at Swanwick than at any other unit? All units will, at some time, have to close sectors-that is just a consequence of how many staff are available-maybe that is just a situation that exists at Swanwick-if so ask yourself why?
The whingeing that went on was because for 6 years people put their lives on hold-often causing them to lose out"big time" financially whilst NATS tried to get the system up and running. Some spent years commuting up to 80 miles each way and others delayed house moves that they would otherwise have made and lost out in a rising market.
The moving of sectors is purely to help the customers due to this system requiring more staff than we ever had.
As for the kit -well what can I say -it is better than it was but by no means perfect. It has taken a while for people to get used to it but we are getting better.
Staff have been through a lot down here but let's hope that NATS learn from it and help to mitigate problems that people will face when they moved from MACC to Prestwick-doubt it though.
Last edited by 250 kts; 11th Feb 2004 at 04:16.
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All units will, at some time, have to close sectors-
What evidence do you have that the sickness rate is worse at Swanwick than at any other unit?
Anyway the whole debate seems to have polarised. Band 5 think things are OK. The rest see major flaws and would like them set straight before we sign up to an agreement.
Just been told that there is a circular from management and Prospect to say that everything turned out as was expected. It is all based on traffic figures and it is going to happen. So you can now cast your vote with the confidence that your views have been noted ...... and binned if you don't agree
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So hand on heart you can say there has not been a culture of going sick to obtain more AAVA's at LACC ( how can you get 30 AAVAs in, please explain) . NOT NECESSARILY YOU AS AN INDIVIDUAL. Have you not been one of the guys denied leave so someone can have the night off to do an AAVA later in the week ? I could say more but I am bored with the LACC attitude me me me zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz alot more.
This has weakened OUR UNION, MACC ATCOs are leaving in their droves what next? NOTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This has weakened OUR UNION, MACC ATCOs are leaving in their droves what next? NOTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!