What's a licence worth?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Once upon a time, long long ago, GtW had a PPL. Amonst other people whom he took for rides in rented 152s was the future Mrs GtW.

However, on getting married and starting to produce babies, GtW let his licence lapse, somewhat. I'm now in the process of getting it back, with no reason to suppose that this won't be achieved shortly.

BUT: Mrs GtW says she won't then let me take any of our kids up for a ride without some other pilot in the aircraft. The instructors and examiners I've mentioned this to just stare blankly and say "but you'll have a licence". (I got the impression there would be something of a shortage of instructors willing to come along for the ride as a safety pilot, unable to log any of the time, even if I did want to pay them.)

So, unless Mrs GtW changes her mind I'll be able to take anyone I like for a ride ... except my own kids. Is this a unique situation or a common problem?

[QDMQDMQDM]

So, unless Mrs GtW changes her mind I'll be able to take anyone I like for a ride ... except my own kids. Is this a unique situation or a common problem?

She'll relent. Mrs. QDM felt the same, particularly as she considers me extremely impractical, lacking in common sense and reckons (wrongly) that I can't wire a plug. Eventually, though, she got so used to me flying and not getting killed that she lets me take child number one up (the others are too young), although she's still not overjoyed about it.

Child number one, needless to say, loves it and we took the plane and went camping last weekend at a farmstrip about 30 miles away. It was great -- the reason I got my licence back and bought an aircraft.

QDM

[Fuji Abound]

Join a Group, make a friend, go somewhere with another pilot in the Group and after a few trips all will be well and you can go alone. Hows that?

[WestWind1950]

tell Mrs. GtW to start learning to fly herself! Why is it that it's mostly only the men that fly and the wives stay home and get "jealous" of his going to the field. She should take lessons and find out for herself how great it is!!

I think this might get this thread in a new direction, but how many of you guys have ever considered investing in flight lessons for your wife? How many flying wives are there out there in Prunneland? Would be interesting to know...

I myself: once married to an airline jockey... I didn't even know it was possible for me to learn flying, thought you can only do it if you wanted to fly professionally. Then I found out from friends that anyone can learn and, without telling him at first, signed up for lessons. Well, he thought the idea not so bad... made it possible for him to fly "small stuff" again. And it gave me an insight into his job, even though my flying stayed "small" (meantime CPL and instuctors rating).

We had many nice flights together with our 2 children ... usually I flew so I could collect hours (obviously he had enough). And taking the children along was never in question, after all, driving a car is much more dangerous, as we all know!

keep flying!
WestWind1950

P.S. in the meantime we're divorced... got frustrationg that he had to have every additional rating that I got as well (glider tow, balloon, glider) as if I was in competition with him! :mad:

[Evo]

I think this might get this thread in a new direction, but how many of you guys have ever considered investing in flight lessons for your wife? How many flying wives are there out there in Prunneland? Would be interesting to know...


I told Mrs Evo that i'd pay for lessons, but she isn't interested. She puts up with me flying them (and talking about them when i'm not flying them), she'll just about tolerate going in them, but she's got no interest in flying them herself.

[Pilotage]

Thankfully Mrs Pilotage has her own brand of expensive hobbies, and spends her own money on them.

Seriously, logic won't win the argument, time and emotion may. I'd suggest not pressing the matter with her, but taking lots of your joint friends - particularly the more vocal ones - up flying. And making sure they both have a good time and feel very safe. Give it a year or so and I've no doubt she'll quietly change her mind without having to be seen to do a U-turn.

But, for goodness sake don't argue with Mrs Wombat about it, you'll never win an argument with the fairer sex by such weak methods as facts alone.

P

[Chilli Monster]

When they realise it's not such a big deal and not as risky as the popular press like to make out they come round.

Ex Mrs CM used to be the same when I was picking up my kids (we were 200 miles by road apart at the time). She used to be very anti until one occasion when they were delayed back from a holiday, couldn't meet normally and I said I'd travel all the way to them to drop off the boys. When she realised that it meant she and new hubby didn't always have to meet me half way she now actively encourages it.

As for the kids - they just become very blase about it, especially when we discovered the game boy doesn't interfere with the nav kit ;)

[tacpot]

I still won't take my children up due to my lack of experience, but I hope to able to as my experience grows. I will have to convince the Ex Mrs. tacpot that I am safe at that point. My children are also likely to be teenagers by then, and so a little more aware of the risks that might be involved and be able to judge for themselves.

So I think Mrs. Wombat is just being vary cautious by insisting that two pilots are on board. After all two pilots means twice the eyeballs looking out, twice the brain power if things go wrong, and she perhaps understands that one adult may need to supervise the children, leaving you free to concentrate on the flying. Fuji Abound's solution seems the best. Find a friend who will come with you for free.

Instructors and Examiners have to earn a living, but I don't see the need to pay them to sit next to you as safety pilot, when another PPL would do. As Pilotage and Fuji say, once you have flown with other people for a while (both pilots and non-pilots) and they have reported back to Mrs. Wombat that you are very safe, I'm sure some of her resistance will disappear.

An article in the PFA magazine recently described a similar situation, where as the aeroplane took off, Mum on the ground thought "My whole life is in that aircraft!" - so you have got to see Mrs. Wombat's point, she doesn't want to lose any of you!

[Flyin'Dutch']

Mrs FD will do the safety course so that she can pilot the machine back after I become incapacitated. This to enable her to cash in on the life insurance policies.

GtW:

Get some experience under your belt by flying solo and with mates and once you are in the groove take her on a day out. Select good weather, comfortable aircraft and pleasant destination (so don't go for the average portacabin with kettle outfit)

Make it a great day and spend lavishly on her.

She will never moan again.

FD

[knobbygb]

Funnily enough, never come across this. My other half was glad for me to take our 7 year old as my first passenger as soon as my licence arrived. Wifey's a bit of a nervous flyer and to be honest I think she was thinking "thank god he's not taking me!"

My advice: Tell her you're taking the kid for a day at the seaside/theme park etc. and go flying - kid will love it so much they'll never let on to mum for fear of not being taken again - honest :D If she finds out and divorces you - you can go flying whenver you want!

Seriously, the only people I've come across who had problems of this nature are a couple I know who have agreed to come with me seperatley, but not together. They don't want to leave several orphans behind if anything goes wrong. Can sort of see their point actually.

[matspart3]

Mrs matspart3 (who hates flying) can't wait to get me out the door with our seven year old daughter in tow. She's been flying since she was 15 months old and loves it.

[Speedbird252]

Intersting subject, there was a good thread back in November 2001 by Aussie Andy on first flights with the kids, well worth a read.

Flirst flight with wife and kids on board (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42879&highlight=children)

Speedy:ok:

[QNH 1013]

I am very fortunate. Mrs QNH and I have never had a problem with this. The only surprising thing used to be when I'd ask one of my sons if they wanted to come flying on a nice Sunday afternoon, and they would reply that they really should finish off their homework. I never showed such responsibility at school!

Mrs QNH decided to do the safety pilot's course which included 8 hours formal training, flying from the rhs, and finished with her demonstrating a D & D radar-vectored recovery to a large ATC controlled airport. She found it very satisfying (all except for the AOPA certificate which seemed a very disappointing rip-off).

Because we often fly taildraggers, Mrs QNH did the bulk of the flying in a taildragger (seemed sensible) but she did an hour or two in a Cessna to see how that landed and couldn't believe how it just kept rolling straight down the runway.

She has no ambition to get a pilot's licence of her own but is planning to get an RT licence, and also learn how to do simple instrument flying.

The only thing she is a bit uncomfortable about is when I go flying in my freaky little single seater. She doesn't even like sitting in it on the ground.

[Cusco]

Just for a variation on a theme:

Cusco and Mrs Cusco allowed theselves (plus no.1 daughter aged 15) to be flown in a warrior by no1 son (aged 17) a monthafter getting his PPL.

Said son the proceeded to scare the cr*p out of Mrs Cusco by a series of steep turns, allegedly to point out some ground feature, the effect of which was that Mrs Cusco has not been in a SEL since.

Which is a great pity as shortly after, Cusco got his PPL but flies sans Mrs Cusco.

She's quite happy for (grown -up) Kids to fly with Cusco however, but that single episode of carelessness wrecked a lot of potential cosy lunchtime trips to France.

ah well......

Cusco

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Mrs Wombat wouldn't be bothered by steep turns per se - we've been on a trip which involved steep turns over a glacier ('cos I'd just run out of film so the pilot said he'd hang around whilst I changed it and did a couple of orbits) between walls of rock.

Interesting, that. I'd always been taught to increase power for a steep turn, but this guy cut the power. On being questioned he explained that this was to keep the orbit within the space available between the cliffs on either side ...

[AndyGB]

I'm in the same situation as you Wombat. I've taken friends up and to be honest am quite confident (probably in the unconcious incompetance stage of knowledge, but what the hell) but my wife isn't to keen on going up with me or me taking the kids.

However she has at least agreed to a family flight from Sherburn to Shoreham over the summer to see my parents, so hopefully that will be a start, although I think an hour or two just bimbling over the local area may be needed to build up her confidence first. At least that is what I hope it will do :D

Andy

[BEagle]

GtW - 2 options:

1. Get Mrs GtW on the AOPA Flying Companion's course.

or 2. Introduce her to the Mile High Club.....:E

[Whirlybird]

Westwind,

You're right of course; there's a kind of general unspoken feeling among men, women, flying schools and the world in general that women can't, don't, won't, really actually fly.:eek: :eek: Not on PPRuNe I'm sure, so spare me the protests. Or, if they do, they're kind of eternal students; I was in a flying school the other day, having just dropped in for lunch, and someone asked me if I was learning to fly; no problem, but they always ask that, never "What do you fly?" or "Are you a pilot?". No folks, I'm not being over-sensititive; I gave up caring long ago. If I happen to mention I have a CPL and Instructors Rating they don't actually hear me; well I know from another life that it's well known by psychologists that you can't perceive anything which you believe to be impossible. But all that might explain some women's reluctance to learn to fly; it's hard to do something you're that sure is impossible.

However, for all of you planning on getting your wives to do the Safety Course, I suggest you save up first if you're paying for it; I know of several women who started their PPLs that way! Deep-rooted beliefs can change when we get our hands on the controls! :) :ok:

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Now I've had the licence back for a while, and taken various other people flying, one of the kids keeps nagging about me taking him, so I say "it's OK by me, just check with your mother", and she says no again, not without another pilot in the aircraft.

To be fair it's not entirely just me, she doesn't really like single pilot operations at all - whenever we're flightseeing or whatever - or even on scheduled single pilot flights! - she encourages me to sit at the front so I can take over if the pilot falls ill.

So, all my asking around so far being in vain (for someone prepared to sit in the RHS of a 172 and do nothing and not be able to log the time) ... do any PPRuNers round Cambridge feel like helping out ...... ?

[Girl Flyday]

Sorry, can't really help much with this one, as my eldest son was my first post-PPL passenger, and my ex seemed to have no worries about this...

Has your wife ever been flying with you? Does she travel in the car with you? Does she worry about you going flying on your own?

GF

[ACW 335]

Im not in the same position (Im child no. 1 age 18) - my mum, dad and bro (age 16) are queueing up to fly!!(I really thought my speedy driving would have put them off)

My other aviation job involves flying a lot of young (age 13 to 15) first timers. Often they are really keen but nervous, but sometimes i get the really nervous one who doesnt want to take control let alone do any turning. Often this is due to a lack of understanding with whats going on. Often they think that if the engine fails all is doomed and that you will crash and burn. I find normally a good brief or chat so to speak works and often answers questions so maybe that or perhaps a trial lesson with someone else for the mrs?
You could always go and get checked on a four seater with an instructor and stick the mrs in the back!?!? (kill 2 birds with 1 stone)

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Has your wife ever been flying with you? Does she travel in the car with you? Does she worry about you going flying on your own? (1) Yes, before we had any children.
(2) Yes, but you've got a fair chance of being able to stop a car if you're suddenly ill I suppose.
(3) Not much. But she won't have the two of us in the same light aircraft, whoever's flying, if the children are on the ground. (Except once in Sydney.)

[Girl Flyday]

So I assume that your wife didn't worry that you were going to kill her when you went flying before you had children?

And yes, I guess you can stop a car if you're ill - but I suspect most accidents in cars are not due to the driver suddnely keeling over, but because of other idiots on the roads - so in fact your chances in the air are somewhat better :-)

That said, I can kind of understand her thinking I guess, in that I hate my ex taking all of the kids off in the car without me, as I worry that if something were to happen (however remote the possibility!) I'd lose them all - and be stuck here without them - likewise, I suppose, her fear of the two of you flying together, whilst the kids are on the ground...

Not helpful to you really - although I'd never let my (irrational?) worries stop life carrying on as normal - and believe that the children too are entitled to make some decisions themselves...

How old are your children?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

So I assume that your wife didn't worry that you were going to kill her when you went flying before you had children? Well, she didn't have to worry about leaving behind any orphans.How old are your children? 9, 11, 13.

[FlyingForFun]

So, all my asking around so far being in vain (for someone prepared to sit in the RHS of a 172 and do nothing and not be able to log the time) ... do any PPRuNers round Cambridge feel like helping out I'm very surprised at that. I try to hire a C172 every month or so and put some foggles on to keep current at instrument flying, and so far I've never once had problems finding someone to "sit in the RHS of a 172 and do nothing and not be able to log the time". Ok, so I suppose technically they're not doing nothing in my case, they're looking out for traffic, but even so.....

If you're really stuck, drop me a PM. I'm not local to Cambridge, and I'm likely to be quite busy as I think about starting to use my weekends to get myself an instructor rating, but I'll try to help out if I can - we can't have kids who are that eager to fly being grounded!

FFF
------------

PS - Has your wife considered learning to fly? Some clubs even do a "safety pilot" course, teaching a passenger how to get home land the aircraft in an emergency, but not much more than that. Sounds like just the thing your family needs!

[dublinpilot]

The only tip I can give, is to make sure you do a formal saftey brief everytime you fly.

I always do a formal brief when flying with anyone other than when I'm under instruction. I was surprised by how quickly my attitude to saftey spread among my friends! I think they were a bit surprised as they get quite nervous with me in a car :D

I took my mum flying, because she really wanted to come, but she was very nervous about comming. Some time later I over heard a conversation between her and a friend of hers. My mum admitted to her friend that she used to worry about me going flying, but ever since she came flying with me, and saw my rigid attitude to saftey, she stopped worring.

So try to do a formal brief on each flight, and hopefully the word will get back!

dp

[Tralfamadore]

This is the age old problem of people's worry quotient being more about their perception of the risks involved in something rather than the actual risks involved. Trying to get around the problem of the actual risks doesn't often work because you can't get past the perception barrier.

I used to get people to come gliding many years ago (a good example since people's perception of the risks associated with gliding are oftern worse than those associated with flying due to lack of noisy thing in front) by telling them to come to the airfield and just enjoy the view- no pressure to go up at all. Great fun on a sunny day. Needless to say that once people had watched the operation running for a while and become comfortable with the environment, and therefore adjusted their perception of the risk, they invariably opted for a flight.

[Amabokoboko]

Keep us posted on how this eventually works out, GTW. I am going to be in the same boat although my lighty is just shy of a year so I supect that by the time he is old enough to fly I will have the requisite experience.

Mrs Bok is a nervous flyer, even in bigs, so I am not holding my breath to get her deeply interested in the whole thing.

Beyond the obvious fear of flying, I have also found a mistrust when family or friends suddenly become qualified people. My little sister is now a physio and many of my drunken mates from varsity are now doctors. It's always a bit weird experiencing them in their "Official" personas for the first time.

In fact, I am about to start training with a CFI who was a few years junior to me at school. It's a bit odd to remember these snotty little things suddenly teaching you what's what.