PFLs

[Genghis the Engineer]

I was sat in a meeting with CAA the other day, and the issue of Rule 5 came up. I expressed the opinion that the change would be disastrous for safety because of the impact on PFL training and practice. A senior chap at CAA (but not it should be said, a pilot) expressed the opinion that PPLs don't practice them very often anyway.

Which begs the question, how much do we practice PFLs. Ignoring the current disastrous weather, the poll I've posted is about your normal flying activities. Do be honest, then we might all learn something.

G

[distaff_beancounter]

Genghis Perhaps the answer to your poll will vary depending on whether the voter is a student, or a PPL holder.

Where I fly, PPL SEP hirers have to pass a school proficiency check every 6 months, which ALWAYS includes PFLs. But for students, PFLs would be practiced more frequently.

[Beethoven]

Due to finances,most of my flying at the moment consists of short local flights just to keep my hand in and I try to do one pfl at every time I go up.Usually to show pax that we are "relatively" safe in the even of a failure.As I myself am quite a nervous flyer I don't think I would like to leave it too long in any circumstances.I actualy quite enjoy it and am starting to experiment with different methods,but I am very worried about breaking rule 5 so I rarely go below 500 feet which kinda defeats the point I suppose but at least it keeps me mentally prepared for the immediate stages after a failure i.e. nail the speed and find a field,Without these 2 the rest is pointless anyway.On my skills test we went right down to about 50-100 feet but now that it is MY licence I am flying on,I would rather keep as far away from complainers as possible because I don't trust most peoples ability to judge my distance from person,vessel,structure etc. and even a false report of low-flying would be a pain in the bum.Don't give them a chance!!

[LowNSlow]

As per Beethoven, I mostly do short trips for fun rather than going somewhere. I'll usually practice stalls and PFL's at least every other flight. I'll go down to 100 or so feet usually cos there are lots of big fields nearby and sideslipping is fun :D

[stiknruda]

Most of my current flying is very short trips for aerobatics, upon my return to the field I generally do a stabilised glide approach. However, normally every third or fourth flight I come hurtling over the strip at a variety of heights, speeds, hdgs and then somewhere before or after the field pull the throttle closed and try my hardest to "get her in from here".

If I £*** up, then I do a very low go-around (200') which gives me a whole new opportunity to play the "get her in from here" game!

PFLs down to 500' don't really prove a whole bunch in my book. it is probably the 0-500 bit that will show you how far wrong you were!

Wishing for kinder, drier weather

Stik

[Genghis the Engineer]

I'm wondering if I should post another poll along the lines of "at what height do you go-around from when practicing a PFL".

G

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Agree with Stik about breakoff height. I have often thought there should be an exception to the low flying rules to allow PFLs down to very low levels. Quite how this would be policed so it wouldn't become a 'beat-up merchants' charter I'm not sure.

I break off above 500 feet to (hopefully) ensure no-one accuses me of low flying. But I realise the resulting PFL is not that useful, but better than not practising at all.

I also do them at the airfield right to the ground, traffic permitting - but that's not so 'real' since its bigger than the average field and I know all the ground clues.

SSD

[Beethoven]

I understand that going round at 500 ft is not the most ideal of situations but as a fairly new PPL,I think it is better than nothing as long as full touchdown glide approaches are regularly practiced in the circuit,because going round at any height is not as good as actually getting the thing down.I ofted also practice PFL's from the overhead to full touch-down and these are most satisfying when they work out as intended.However,as I get more experienced I shall take my "away" PFL's lower and lower and just hope that if I hear "the great silence",then my practice up to this point has been enough.
Best Wishes

[QDMQDMQDM]

"at what height do you go-around from when practicing a PFL".

50-100 feet. It's the 0-500 feet bit which is the trickiest and there's a bit at about 200 feet on every glide approach of mine where I think "Yes! I'll easily get it in from here, I'm much too high actually" and then I drop full flap and then I'm kinda too low.

I tend to cruise fairly low and, in a way, PFLs are easier from a low height because you can't change your mind.

QDM

[28thJuly2001]

"I tend to cruise fairly low and, in a way, PFLs are easier from a low height because you can't change your mind."

Hmmmmm, Don't know about anyone else but I would prefer an engine out at 5,000ft any day. Gives you oodles more options and a chance to relight the fan.

28th,,

[QDMQDMQDM]

Hmmmmm, Don't know about anyone else but I would prefer an engine out at 5,000ft any day. Gives you oodles more options and a chance to relight the fan.


Of course, I'm not arguing it's safer, just that it's simpler because the options are so much more limited and there's no chance to change your mind, which is often the cause of a screw-up in the first place. Sort of perverse, I know, but that's how it feels to me.

As for practicing PFls from 5,000 feet and aborting at 500 feet, you still don't really know if you'd have got in or not.

QDM

[Dusty_B]

PFL from 5000'?

Blimey, I'd have fallen asleep by then!!! :D

I wouldn't give myself one much above 2500-3000', getting the engine restart drillls out of the way within 500', then we can go straight into a full pattern, and not leave the engine idling for too long.

[28thJuly2001]

I was not talking about practising them at 5,000ft, I was referring to one happening in 'real life'.

28th,,

[Tinstaafl]

...senior chap at CAA (but not it should be said, a pilot) expressed the opinion that PPLs don't practice them very often anyway.


So how the hell would he know what happens, is appropriate or is not?

PFLs aren't recorded, logged or otherwise documented so the number of them that occur without raising the ire of someone on ground is unknown.

It's reasonable to expect that far more occur that don't raise a complaint, than those that occur that do. A pretty fair generalisation considering just how many are done during a pilot's training but don't ever seem to cause complaint

Bloody idiot bureaucrats.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Which is exactly why I asked the question. To be fair, the chap is a very able aeronautical Engineer. One of the problems in dealing with CAA is that you meet few generalists - the Engineer who is also a pilot who is also a manager is pretty rare over there.

G

[Wing_Bound_Vortex]

Usually every time i fly, which isn't much at the moment as i'm sure many others know only too well at this time of year! :(

Having said that i don't go below 500 ft in a PFL on too many occasions, re. the point about possibly being nicked for low flying, however we do have the use of a rather large stretch of beach about 5mins flying time from our club....

Cue PFL's to the deck, often with the fan stopped... :D

It's quite a difference in gliding performance when you're dead stick, and though you don't have the same demands on field selection ( borders, surface, slope, crop ) by picking a point or offset feature to denote the start of your " field " it can be very useful practice.

Plus it gets the heart rate up a notch as well!

WBV

[Tinstaafl]

Hi Genghis,

It's not about being a generalist or not, it's about recognising one's area of skill & competence - and area's to which they don't apply.

A more considered response by this person would be to ask a person in that field about the topic, not state categorically what he has decided is a 'fact'.

[Genghis the Engineer]

To be fair to him, it wasn't even on the agenda - and on several topics that were, I was there to advise him, so I don't wish to be judgemental. And to be honest, until I posted this poll, I didn't have any idea, and I doubt anybody else did either what the reality is.

G

[mad_jock]

I teach pfls down to almost the flare.

I work on the principle that if the examiner says go around at 500ft great nothing lost. But if i called them off early every time sods laws says that the examiner would ask the student to go lower thus the student wouldn't be prepared.

Luckly most of the local farmers have been into the school at some point on trial flights and positively encouraged us to do them in there fields.

You wouldn't believe how boring it is doing a trial flight round some blokes carrot fields and tattie parks.

MJ

[Loony_Pilot]

I also teach PFL's down to as low as I can.

I've also had to do a real one (in a PA28-140.. glide characteristics of a breeze block towing a parachute) and can personally attest to practising them as often as possible.(since I'm still here!)

If you can find an area where its safe to go right down to the flare.. all the better.

It seems that by making a fuss over the legality of PFL's and EFATO's the CAA are basically saying that they put the value of life beneath that of "technicalities".. which frankly stinks.

I'll keep teaching my students to fly PFL's properly, competently and safely, and if I ever get prosecuted at least i will be able to hold my head high knowing I've done the right thing.

Sad isnt it

[DRJAD]

Well, I've voted, but am in the 'break off by 500 feet' camp - since it's my licence at stake.

One does wonder whether the practice is worth it, with that restriction.

I have been down further, when the airfield was not busy (i.e. just before closing, nothing in the circuit, etc.) and that was very useful. Still it was familiar territory, so one still has the wonder about a real event.

[Flyin'Dutch']

I firmly believe that you can practice them very appropriately without having to go down below 500ft.

You can practice the last bit every time you make a glide-approach into the airfield you fly from/to.

The most important bit is the bit above 500ft, as in setting it up, field selection etc. If you don't get those bits right you can forget it. Nobody saves a botched set up with that little height/time left.

FD

[bar shaker]

Not sure I agree. The hardest part of any landing is the bit from 500ft down. Wind gradient changes everything.

[Penguina]

I haven't voted, because I don't think my winter's flying reflects what I would hope to do.

How do people who take pax a lot feel about PFLs with them on board?

[steve_moate]

Even in this conjested island there has to be multiude of areas that could be set aside to allow certain avaition training procedures to be carried out to completion, or as near as the PIC decides is safe, without the fear of recrimination from the CAA.

If the military can have vast expanses of the country to practice blowing each other up, perhaps some of these areas could be utilised for specific training at weekends/bank holidays. For example, a relatively small area at the edge of a danger area (Salisbury Plain, Otterburn etc) could be utilised for PFL's, EFATO's late go-arounds et al, without the obvious worry of pi55ing off the local populace, because there wont be any. I appreciate that many of the DA's are active weekends, and some are activated by NOTAM, but with the right procedure in place, and an appropriate controlling authority, these could be very well utilised to give us all the oppertunity to carry out the procedures to everything but the landing.

I would imagine that these areas would be heavily utilised, but the skies would ultimately be full of people that have the confidence, and now the experience of dealing with these situations in an emergency.

[Evo]

How do people who take pax a lot feel about PFLs with them on board?


I do them frequently, especially with first-time pax. The great fear that new passengers have seems to be the stall and engine failure, both seemingly leading to the aeroplane plummeting hundreds of feet (copyright Daily Mail) into a busload of nuns. Seeing that a PFL is a non-event helps considerably. Stalls are reserved for the more confident, but also help.

I don't mention mid-airs, structural failure, fire or groundlooping into the hedge... :ouch:

[sharpshot]

Over parts of Wales, you wouldn't want to practice one below 5,000 ft: Chances are you don't have a whole heck of a lot of terrain clearance and you are likely to be in cloud.

I have been through severe icing at 5,0 in June up there and had to climb out of it.

I disagree with previous - at 500' you know whether or not you're going to hit the spot.
:hmm: :ugh: :uhoh: What would you do if you went to < 200' and applied power for the go-around and the engine did not respond.
That's more like cardiovascular exercise!

I see no point in setting aside an area to practice in - the real thing ain't going to catch you out in friendly territory. I recall a previous about flying tight circuits just in case of engine failure - so you just arrived near the field after a two hour leg, gee, better fly a tight circuit cause I'll be in real troble if the engine quits now...

[Flyin'Dutch']

I wouldn't do them with non pilot pax.

There is of course nothing amiss by showing that if you reduce the engine power to idle the machine will not plummet earthwards into the busses full with nunns but there is little to be gained by demonstrating your ability to do a PFL to your passengers (the vast majority of which will have not a clue anyway)

Most bad aviation incidents will have a preamble along the lines of: 'Look at how well I can do this etc'

Regarding windshear etc below 500' and the need to go that low to prove you have set it up correctly, I'd say that if the spot is that tight it will probably pay to give yourself a bit more margin.

FD

[Evo]

I guess we'll disagree on that one, F'D' - I've found pax to be interested and reassured both by the ability of the aeroplane to glide well with idle power and the fact that we can position to land in a field without problems. It only takes the most basic commentary for them to figure out what we're doing.

As for


Most bad aviation incidents will have a preamble along the lines of: 'Look at how well I can do this etc'


that's a bit melodramatic, don't you think? We're not talking about some ham-fisted wingover here, or the infamous low-level steep turn. We're talking about demonstrating a PFL to a passenger, going around once we're established - and, quite frankly, if you cannot do that safely then you probably shouldn't have licence nor passenger.

[Flyin'Dutch']

E,

Happy to disagree!

:)

In my experience most folks that are being flown around like to have a whizz round the block and a nice and smooth ride followed by a gentle landing.

I think that anything other than that should only be undertaken by experienced folks with passengers that are keen and have a fair understanding of what aviation entails and the associated risks are.

The height band in which one would do a PFL is typically the one occupied by low flying RAF hardware.

Furthermore you would not be the first to have to make the PFL into a FL due to a mechanical problem which arose at the moment you want to go-around.

Melodramatic? Not sure. Just don't like to be caught with my pants down.

But anyone who isn't hampered by such concerns should feel free to go for it.

FD

[englishal]

The most important bit is the bit above 500ft, as in setting it up, field selection etc
Couldn't agree more. The hardest part obout a forced landing (and the bit I always had trouble with) is working out where you're going to land, and judging everything right to get you to the spot. Once you can do that in your sleep, then the sub 500' bit is easy. Besides in real life, if you don't arrive at the right spot by the time you reach 500', its probably too late anyway.

In the UK we're fairly luck with respect to the number of fields around (compared to say LA or somewhere). I would always aim to do a long base, followed by a very short final into the wind and all being well into the field, possibly leaving flaps out for as long as possible in case I need to "baloon" over anything I haven't noticed before (like a fence).

Fingers cross, will never need to do one though :D