View Poll Results: How often do you practice PFLs ?
At least monthly
29
26.85%
At least every 3 months
30
27.78%
At least every 6 months
25
23.15%
Less often than every 6 months.
24
22.22%
Voters: 108. This poll is closed
PFLs
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Thread Starter
PFLs
I was sat in a meeting with CAA the other day, and the issue of Rule 5 came up. I expressed the opinion that the change would be disastrous for safety because of the impact on PFL training and practice. A senior chap at CAA (but not it should be said, a pilot) expressed the opinion that PPLs don't practice them very often anyway.
Which begs the question, how much do we practice PFLs. Ignoring the current disastrous weather, the poll I've posted is about your normal flying activities. Do be honest, then we might all learn something.
G
Which begs the question, how much do we practice PFLs. Ignoring the current disastrous weather, the poll I've posted is about your normal flying activities. Do be honest, then we might all learn something.
G
Join Date: Oct 2001
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Genghis Perhaps the answer to your poll will vary depending on whether the voter is a student, or a PPL holder.
Where I fly, PPL SEP hirers have to pass a school proficiency check every 6 months, which ALWAYS includes PFLs. But for students, PFLs would be practiced more frequently.
Where I fly, PPL SEP hirers have to pass a school proficiency check every 6 months, which ALWAYS includes PFLs. But for students, PFLs would be practiced more frequently.
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Due to finances,most of my flying at the moment consists of short local flights just to keep my hand in and I try to do one pfl at every time I go up.Usually to show pax that we are "relatively" safe in the even of a failure.As I myself am quite a nervous flyer I don't think I would like to leave it too long in any circumstances.I actualy quite enjoy it and am starting to experiment with different methods,but I am very worried about breaking rule 5 so I rarely go below 500 feet which kinda defeats the point I suppose but at least it keeps me mentally prepared for the immediate stages after a failure i.e. nail the speed and find a field,Without these 2 the rest is pointless anyway.On my skills test we went right down to about 50-100 feet but now that it is MY licence I am flying on,I would rather keep as far away from complainers as possible because I don't trust most peoples ability to judge my distance from person,vessel,structure etc. and even a false report of low-flying would be a pain in the bum.Don't give them a chance!!
As per Beethoven, I mostly do short trips for fun rather than going somewhere. I'll usually practice stalls and PFL's at least every other flight. I'll go down to 100 or so feet usually cos there are lots of big fields nearby and sideslipping is fun 
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Most of my current flying is very short trips for aerobatics, upon my return to the field I generally do a stabilised glide approach. However, normally every third or fourth flight I come hurtling over the strip at a variety of heights, speeds, hdgs and then somewhere before or after the field pull the throttle closed and try my hardest to "get her in from here".
If I £*** up, then I do a very low go-around (200') which gives me a whole new opportunity to play the "get her in from here" game!
PFLs down to 500' don't really prove a whole bunch in my book. it is probably the 0-500 bit that will show you how far wrong you were!
Wishing for kinder, drier weather
Stik
If I £*** up, then I do a very low go-around (200') which gives me a whole new opportunity to play the "get her in from here" game!
PFLs down to 500' don't really prove a whole bunch in my book. it is probably the 0-500 bit that will show you how far wrong you were!
Wishing for kinder, drier weather
Stik
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Agree with Stik about breakoff height. I have often thought there should be an exception to the low flying rules to allow PFLs down to very low levels. Quite how this would be policed so it wouldn't become a 'beat-up merchants' charter I'm not sure.
I break off above 500 feet to (hopefully) ensure no-one accuses me of low flying. But I realise the resulting PFL is not that useful, but better than not practising at all.
I also do them at the airfield right to the ground, traffic permitting - but that's not so 'real' since its bigger than the average field and I know all the ground clues.
SSD
I break off above 500 feet to (hopefully) ensure no-one accuses me of low flying. But I realise the resulting PFL is not that useful, but better than not practising at all.
I also do them at the airfield right to the ground, traffic permitting - but that's not so 'real' since its bigger than the average field and I know all the ground clues.
SSD
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I understand that going round at 500 ft is not the most ideal of situations but as a fairly new PPL,I think it is better than nothing as long as full touchdown glide approaches are regularly practiced in the circuit,because going round at any height is not as good as actually getting the thing down.I ofted also practice PFL's from the overhead to full touch-down and these are most satisfying when they work out as intended.However,as I get more experienced I shall take my "away" PFL's lower and lower and just hope that if I hear "the great silence",then my practice up to this point has been enough.
Best Wishes
Best Wishes
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"at what height do you go-around from when practicing a PFL".
I tend to cruise fairly low and, in a way, PFLs are easier from a low height because you can't change your mind.
QDM
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"I tend to cruise fairly low and, in a way, PFLs are easier from a low height because you can't change your mind."
28th,,
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Hmmmmm, Don't know about anyone else but I would prefer an engine out at 5,000ft any day. Gives you oodles more options and a chance to relight the fan.
Of course, I'm not arguing it's safer, just that it's simpler because the options are so much more limited and there's no chance to change your mind, which is often the cause of a screw-up in the first place. Sort of perverse, I know, but that's how it feels to me.
As for practicing PFls from 5,000 feet and aborting at 500 feet, you still don't really know if you'd have got in or not.
QDM
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PFL from 5000'?
Blimey, I'd have fallen asleep by then!!!
I wouldn't give myself one much above 2500-3000', getting the engine restart drillls out of the way within 500', then we can go straight into a full pattern, and not leave the engine idling for too long.
Blimey, I'd have fallen asleep by then!!!
I wouldn't give myself one much above 2500-3000', getting the engine restart drillls out of the way within 500', then we can go straight into a full pattern, and not leave the engine idling for too long.
...senior chap at CAA (but not it should be said, a pilot) expressed the opinion that PPLs don't practice them very often anyway.
So how the hell would he know what happens, is appropriate or is not?
PFLs aren't recorded, logged or otherwise documented so the number of them that occur without raising the ire of someone on ground is unknown.
It's reasonable to expect that far more occur that don't raise a complaint, than those that occur that do. A pretty fair generalisation considering just how many are done during a pilot's training but don't ever seem to cause complaint
Bloody idiot bureaucrats.
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Thread Starter
Which is exactly why I asked the question. To be fair, the chap is a very able aeronautical Engineer. One of the problems in dealing with CAA is that you meet few generalists - the Engineer who is also a pilot who is also a manager is pretty rare over there.
G
G
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Usually every time i fly, which isn't much at the moment as i'm sure many others know only too well at this time of year! 
Having said that i don't go below 500 ft in a PFL on too many occasions, re. the point about possibly being nicked for low flying, however we do have the use of a rather large stretch of beach about 5mins flying time from our club....
Cue PFL's to the deck, often with the fan stopped...
It's quite a difference in gliding performance when you're dead stick, and though you don't have the same demands on field selection ( borders, surface, slope, crop ) by picking a point or offset feature to denote the start of your " field " it can be very useful practice.
Plus it gets the heart rate up a notch as well!
WBV
Having said that i don't go below 500 ft in a PFL on too many occasions, re. the point about possibly being nicked for low flying, however we do have the use of a rather large stretch of beach about 5mins flying time from our club....
Cue PFL's to the deck, often with the fan stopped...
It's quite a difference in gliding performance when you're dead stick, and though you don't have the same demands on field selection ( borders, surface, slope, crop ) by picking a point or offset feature to denote the start of your " field " it can be very useful practice.
Plus it gets the heart rate up a notch as well!
WBV
Hi Genghis,
It's not about being a generalist or not, it's about recognising one's area of skill & competence - and area's to which they don't apply.
A more considered response by this person would be to ask a person in that field about the topic, not state categorically what he has decided is a 'fact'.
It's not about being a generalist or not, it's about recognising one's area of skill & competence - and area's to which they don't apply.
A more considered response by this person would be to ask a person in that field about the topic, not state categorically what he has decided is a 'fact'.
Last edited by Tinstaafl; 26th Nov 2002 at 17:56.
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Thread Starter
To be fair to him, it wasn't even on the agenda - and on several topics that were, I was there to advise him, so I don't wish to be judgemental. And to be honest, until I posted this poll, I didn't have any idea, and I doubt anybody else did either what the reality is.
G
G
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I teach pfls down to almost the flare.
I work on the principle that if the examiner says go around at 500ft great nothing lost. But if i called them off early every time sods laws says that the examiner would ask the student to go lower thus the student wouldn't be prepared.
Luckly most of the local farmers have been into the school at some point on trial flights and positively encouraged us to do them in there fields.
You wouldn't believe how boring it is doing a trial flight round some blokes carrot fields and tattie parks.
MJ
I work on the principle that if the examiner says go around at 500ft great nothing lost. But if i called them off early every time sods laws says that the examiner would ask the student to go lower thus the student wouldn't be prepared.
Luckly most of the local farmers have been into the school at some point on trial flights and positively encouraged us to do them in there fields.
You wouldn't believe how boring it is doing a trial flight round some blokes carrot fields and tattie parks.
MJ
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I also teach PFL's down to as low as I can.
I've also had to do a real one (in a PA28-140.. glide characteristics of a breeze block towing a parachute) and can personally attest to practising them as often as possible.(since I'm still here!)
If you can find an area where its safe to go right down to the flare.. all the better.
It seems that by making a fuss over the legality of PFL's and EFATO's the CAA are basically saying that they put the value of life beneath that of "technicalities".. which frankly stinks.
I'll keep teaching my students to fly PFL's properly, competently and safely, and if I ever get prosecuted at least i will be able to hold my head high knowing I've done the right thing.
Sad isnt it
I've also had to do a real one (in a PA28-140.. glide characteristics of a breeze block towing a parachute) and can personally attest to practising them as often as possible.(since I'm still here!)
If you can find an area where its safe to go right down to the flare.. all the better.
It seems that by making a fuss over the legality of PFL's and EFATO's the CAA are basically saying that they put the value of life beneath that of "technicalities".. which frankly stinks.
I'll keep teaching my students to fly PFL's properly, competently and safely, and if I ever get prosecuted at least i will be able to hold my head high knowing I've done the right thing.
Sad isnt it