Can Wigston survive the onslaught?

[Professor Plum]

Crikey!

[MPN11]

Crikey!
Lots of bling come free with a packet of cereal at CAS level. I believe he gets more when he retires.

[Finningley Boy]

Lots of bling come free with a packet of cereal at CAS level. I believe he gets more when he retires.
Hasn't he already retired from the RAF?

FB

[MPN11]

Hasn't he already retired from the RAF?
MRAF used to be the gizzit, IIRC. Or a Peerage? Lord Wigston of Woke-on-Sea?

[Big Pistons Forever]

The exchange of feel good fripperies are the lubricant for nation to nation engagement at the senior levels. Everyone knows they are a polite but meaningless way to demonstrate support to the institution.

[Old-Duffer]

I expect Sir Mike has not actually left the RAF yet and is still on terminal leave.
Old Duffer

[MPN11]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshal_of_the_Royal_Air_Force

Marshal of the Royal Air Force (MRAF) is the highest rank in the Royal Air Force (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Air_Force) (RAF).[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshal_of_the_Royal_Air_Force#cite_note-1) In peacetime it was granted to RAF officers in the appointment of Chief of the Defence Staff (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_of_the_Defence_Staff_(United_Kingdom)) (CDS), and to retired Chiefs of the Air Staff (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_of_the_Air_Staff_(United_Kingdom)) (CAS), who were promoted to it on their last day of service. While surviving Marshals of the RAF retain the rank for life,[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshal_of_the_Royal_Air_Force#cite_note-2) the highest rank to which officers on active service are promoted is now air chief marshal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_chief_marshal). Although general promotions to Marshal of the Royal Air Force have been discontinued since the British defence cuts of the 1990s, further promotions to the rank may still be made in wartime, for members of the Royal Family (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Royal_Family) and certain very senior RAF air officers in peacetime at the discretion of the monarch; all such promotions in peacetime are only honorary, however.

​​​​​​​The option still exists, it would seem.

[Woodsy2417]

Legion of Merit from USAF, I am amazed that he has the temerity to think he deserves anything from our allies. Emasculated transport fleet, Illegal discrimination policies, failed pilot training programme, continued run down of size of the RAF throughout his term of office, loss of confidence in the leadership of the RAF by the service itself at record levels (AFCAS). Smallest combat fleet in the history of the Air Force. Merit! What am I missing here?

[oldmansquipper]

Aaah! now three props surrounded by a light blue circle I believe, as some of the more venerable ppruners will recall, it was an inverted chevron once!

FB:ok:

back in the day…….

it was recognised that there were two ways to skin a cat - ground based promotion wise. 1. Command 2. Technician

neither route had (generally) access to the higher echelons - Pilots only.

I did the ‘command’ route whilst continuing to exercise my technical skills. But I always felt that it was a big mistake to do it the other way round. At one unit I served (High on a hill) scheduled maintenance teams of 4 technicians were allocated to a single airframe. Quite often there were 3 Chf Techs and one JT. The 3 Chiefs would argue amongst themselves as to whose turn it was to order the JT about…..

happy days!😉

[MPN11]

Unlike my contemporaries in ATC, I staggered up the ladder without being either an Instructor at the School or the Examining Board. Out of Branch employment or Staff jobs seemed to suffice! I was once told that getting away from ‘incestuous reporting’ was beneficial at promotion boards.

[Union Jack]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshal_of_the_Royal_Air_Force



The option still exists, it would seem.

It certainly appears to have applied to the promotion of Lord Stirrup in the sense of the last sentence of the reference,.:ok:
​​​​​​​

Jack

[Rigga]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1500x2000/ae4e4d1a_59b5_4916_89bc_76722b196610_dad048a3cca077d189a3424 ff342c55ec5e8f694.jpeg
is wiggly responsible for this too? Surely making the RAF a bit of a laughing stock? P.S. this (person?) might do a perfectly good job btw

[Finningley Boy]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1500x2000/ae4e4d1a_59b5_4916_89bc_76722b196610_dad048a3cca077d189a3424 ff342c55ec5e8f694.jpeg
is wiggly responsible for this too? Surely making the RAF a bit of a laughing stock? P.S. this (person?) might do a perfectly good job btw
The Met Police are the same, it's not that this is the norm,but a number of serving male personnel have their hair in a fashion which staggers belief that its allowed. I saw an Inspector once with a shoulder lengh perm in a pony tail and a Sergent with long hair wearing a head band, all in uniform btw, not under cover.

FB

[Asturias56]

"number of serving male personnel have their hair in a fashion which staggers belief that its allowed."

they're paid to do a job - not look good or to fit into some 1950's idea of same.

[Geriaviator]

Useful handhold for some of the people the police have to deal with, even more so these days. In my time forbidden for this reason.

[Finningley Boy]

"number of serving male personnel have their hair in a fashion which staggers belief that its allowed."

they're paid to do a job - not look good or to fit into some 1950's idea of same.
Or even a 1990s or noughties idea of just looking realistic, the old they're paid to do a job, bare functionary, attitude has been around since before the 1950s and has been used to excuse the constant erosion of everything. Tell me does the Sergeant with the corn rows, or whatever, take part in ceremonial parades like Remembrance Sunday like that. What an awful presentation. Bare function alone isn't enough, never has been.

FB

[SLXOwft]

All part of ASTRA and Wiggo's Diversity policies. 'However, whatever style is chosen, it must still allow Service issue headdress to be worn correctly'. I am suprised the cultural appropriation police haven't clamped down on this one unless he can prove Lacedaemonian origins.

We dinosaurs may be subconciously jealous, I remember paying for what I thought was a ridiculously short haircut the day before joining, the BRNC authorities disagreed and I was sent straight to the barber.

[alfred_the_great]

Or even a 1990s or noughties idea of just looking realistic, the old they're paid to do a job, bare functionary, attitude has been around since before the 1950s and has been used to excuse the constant erosion of everything. Tell me does the Sergeant with the corn rows, or whatever, take part in ceremonial parades like Remembrance Sunday like that. What an awful presentation. Bare function alone isn't enough, never has been.

FB

nurse! Nurse! The old folk have escaped again - can someone help me get them back to the good ole days in the late 1970s…

[Gordon Brown]

Uhtred, son of Uhtred has let himself go...

[Finningley Boy]

That's another thing, that Sergeant could do with skipping a few meals, his shirt looks like an over full bin bag. But would he be a first choise as a poster boy image for the the modern RAF?:)

FB

[SimonPaddo]

Probably :O

[pr00ne]

The Met Police are the same, it's not that this is the norm,but a number of serving male personnel have their hair in a fashion which staggers belief that its allowed. I saw an Inspector once with a shoulder lengh perm in a pony tail and a Sergent with long hair wearing a head band, all in uniform btw, not under cover.

FB

And what on earth is wrong with any of that?

[downsizer]

I'm fully retired now and in receipt of my pension. Do i give a single f*ck what those left in look like? Nope, because they don't affect me. Even when I was in I was more interested if they could do the job well rather than what they looked like based on some outdated idea.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I'm fully retired now and in receipt of my pension. Do i give a single f*ck what those left in look like? Nope, because they don't affect me. Even when I was in I was more interested if they could do the job well rather than what they looked like based on some outdated idea.

I will take a switched on guy in a pony tail over a PITA member with the best "regulation haircut" any day. To paraphrase what you look like is skin deep, how you perform goes to the core of who you are.

[Finningley Boy]

And what on earth is wrong with any of that?
Well for start, with all that hair all over the place, they won't be able fit their hats on straight, and that's a big problem! If on parade, there is a gust wind, there hats will take off and that will be that, no hat!:(

FB

[downsizer]

Well for start, with all that hair all over the place, they won't be able fit their hats on straight, and that's a big problem! If on parade, there is a gust wind, there hats will take off and that will be that, no hat!:(

FB

Bloody hell mate, you're right that would be a disaster! :eek:

[downsizer]

I do wonder how often people think parades come round these days.... I served 1993-2023 and last did a parade in 1999! And not through trying to get out of them.

[Finningley Boy]

I arrived out of training at RAF Boulmer in August 1978, there was an NCO i/c MGR, Sgt R M Smith. A short Scotsman with sandy well trimmed hair a super sense of humour yet even for the time, he was years behind in another era. Every parade as he inspected the ranks as he made his way along each one, you'd hear him suddenly explode at somebody, then his final intemperate words were, report to me at the Main Guard Room after the parade. When that time came they'd be a queue of airmen, including NCOs, outide the MGR as if waiting at the Cinema for a Blockbuster. Now that's when we had a real air force!:ok:

FB

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

They should probably ditch those stale, repressive uniforms as well, and allow people to more freely express their identity by turning up to work in whatever they feel like. This would make events like the Coronation and Trooping of the Colour more diverse and reflective of modern society. After all, wearing a uniform has no bearing on how well you do your job.

[Finningley Boy]

They should probably ditch those stale, repressive uniforms as well, and allow people to more freely express their identity by turning up to work in whatever they feel like. This would make events like the Coronation and Trooping of the Colour more diverse and reflective of modern society. After all, wearing a uniform has no bearing on how well you do your job.
Well I suppose you've got a point Sir, away with repressive uniforms which were designed in an Imperial age. I can imagine many people, younger people, will feel threatened by the appearance of such martial rightwing looking uniforms in public as well!:eek:

FB

[Geriaviator]

I arrived out of training at RAF Boulmer in August 1978, there was an NCO i/c MGR, Sgt R M Smith. A short Scotsman with sandy well trimmed hair a super sense of humour yet even for the time, he was years behind in another era. Every parade as he inspected the ranks as he made his way along each one, you'd hear him suddenly explode at somebody, then his final intemperate words were, report to me at the Main Guard Room after the parade. When that time came they'd be a queue of airmen, including NCOs, outide the MGR as if waiting at the Cinema for a Blockbuster. Now that's when we had a real air force!:ok:

FB
You poor fellow, such awful personal trauma must have blighted your life over past 45 years. You should get your claim in straight away, and while waiting for your legally aided case tell your story to an eager media.

[pr00ne]

Well for start, with all that hair all over the place, they won't be able fit their hats on straight, and that's a big problem! If on parade, there is a gust wind, there hats will take off and that will be that, no hat!:(

FB

Oh dear..........

I think you have not quite understood what our Armed Forces are actually for.

[pr00ne]

I arrived out of training at RAF Boulmer in August 1978, there was an NCO i/c MGR, Sgt R M Smith. A short Scotsman with sandy well trimmed hair a super sense of humour yet even for the time, he was years behind in another era. Every parade as he inspected the ranks as he made his way along each one, you'd hear him suddenly explode at somebody, then his final intemperate words were, report to me at the Main Guard Room after the parade. When that time came they'd be a queue of airmen, including NCOs, outide the MGR as if waiting at the Cinema for a Blockbuster. Now that's when we had a real air force!:ok:

FB

No, that was 45 years ago when we had a trivial small minded Air Force that had a massive retention problem, can't think why!

[Biggus]

As opposed to today, when we have a small, left leaning, 'woke', Air Force with a massive retention problem....

[esscee]

Touche!

[Finningley Boy]

No, that was 45 years ago when we had a trivial small minded Air Force that had a massive retention problem, can't think why!
pr00ne,

All us young airmen at Boulmer, if we had to head of to the Station HQ, dreaded the fact we had to walk (march) past the Main Guard Room, just in case Smiffy was there looking out the window, every so often he'd claim a scalp (so to speak) "AIRMAN, WHEN DID YE LAST GET YIR HAIR CUT?!" He delighted in telling the six of us who arrived on that August evening, what he expected of us, in terms of uniform maintenance , hair lengh regulations and all the rest of it, "we don't treat ye like wee boys and girils here, if yer uniforms no pressed or yer over due a hair cut, I'll charge ye! And don't go complaining tae yer WO Ops or Flight Commander, 'cause I'll just tell the CO aa'm wastin ma time here and yer Flight Commander 'll get leant on so it'll all bounce back to you, so its all sown up!"

There I can remember the welcome to RAF Boulmer line with unerring clarity. Sgt Smith did have his moment of fame, he was posted to Machrahanish, where they made the film "White Nights". He got a cameo role as a Soviet Officer, you see him when the plane lands in Soviet territory with the defector on board. Sgt Smith is stood next to someone who orders him to meet the some official stepping off the flight, he marches over as only Sgt Smith would/could snaps to attention and stands ramrod straight and salutes. I've watched that scene and recognise the same manner from the past.

FB

[aw ditor]

Bit like Bogbrush' at Shiny Palace. I bet he had heart of gold though .................... !

[langleybaston]

As opposed to today, when we have a small, left leaning, 'woke', Air Force with a massive retention problem....

When war push comes to shove, are not warriors best impressing the enemy with their morale, cohesion, demeanour and discipline? Does not instant obedience with legal orders and a general air of belonging to the toughest and cleverest gang around count any more?

Does not self-respect begin with appearance and punctuality and can-do?

A ragged-arsed unkempt shambling unit may be good for recruiting and retention [although I am not sure if I would want the recruits] but will it put fear in the enemy and protect the country that they / we sign[ed] up to serve?

[downsizer]

When war push comes to shove, are not warriors best impressing the enemy with their morale, cohesion, demeanour and discipline? Does not instant obedience with legal orders and a general air of belonging to the toughest and cleverest gang around count any more?

Does not self-respect begin with appearance and punctuality and can-do?

A ragged-arsed unkempt shambling unit may be good for recruiting and retention [although I am not sure if I would want the recruits] but will it put fear in the enemy and protect the country that they / we sign[ed] up to serve?

Having been on Ops right up till resettlement this year- you are talking sh1te. We have no problem delivering effect. Look at the super non-woke russian armed forces, is that a better model.

Probably worth you pondering as well, were it not for the super lefty woke air force your special grandaughter wouldn't be in the RAF Regiment as a weekend warrior!

[Big Pistons Forever]

I hated all the spit and polish BS and especially hated anything to do with parades and marching. I guess the professional pedestrians in the Army eat that shy*te up but as a proud member of the RCN my career long goal was to run the ragged line of being having the second worst shoe shine, the second longest hair, the second saltiest cap etc etc.

I knew I had beaten the system when on the practice for my change of command parade, the ultra pusser DI handed me a sword and said with very evident sincerity, “Sir, please don’t trip over it when you are walking my mates will never let me live it down!”

[Finningley Boy]

Having been on Ops right up till resettlement this year- you are talking sh1te. We have no problem delivering effect. Look at the super non-woke russian armed forces, is that a better model.

Probably worth you pondering as well, were it not for the super lefty woke air force your special grandaughter wouldn't be in the RAF Regiment as a weekend warrior!
Yes indeed, a good point sir, but there are a variety of factors to take into account, none of which excuse the comprehensive abandonment of presentation and behaviour. The Russians, glad you asked, have never had a good track record, contrary to popular public perception, in the field of arms. To address your point about their being a non-woke army, well they're up against a non-woke army with better weaponry, albeit supplied by the west. Now cast your mind back to December (I believe that was the month) 1939, the invasion of Finland, similar circumstances to now. They got their noses beat in. Stalin's actions are said to have encouraged Hitler to invade the USSR, this after he witnessed the paltry showing of the Red Army, by far and away the largest army, in Finland.

Indeed, a bucket full of blame is due to Stalin for the preceding purge years, when he lopped off the heads of the Commanders of the army because he feared their ability and likely political opposition. Now, if you want an example of an adept, neigh, extremely adept, extremely non-woke army. Look to the record of Hitler's Werhmacht, and their hated helpmeets of the Wafffen SS. And before you say it, yes they were without question crushed by the end of the war, but the road to that defeat has many factors involved, not all visible at first glance.:ok:

FB

[downsizer]

To address your point about their being a non-woke army, well they're up against a non-woke army with better weaponry, albeit supplied by the west.
FB

Are the Ukrainians non woke? They seem to have no problem with women on the front line, lax grooming standards, tattoos on hands neck and face, mixed dress...

[Finningley Boy]

Are the Ukrainians non woke? They seem to have no problem with women on the front line, lax grooming standards, tattoos on hands neck and face, mixed dress...
They're not in a situation to pick and choose certainly.

FB

[Finningley Boy]

Ukraine Struggling to Recruit Troops, Some Young Men Pay to Flee: WSJ (businessinsider.com) (https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine-struggling-recruit-troops-some-young-men-pay-flee-wsj-2023-3?r=US&IR=T)

Regarding the point about taking all they can get, it does rather give credability to the recuitment problem in the UK, if you look at the image I know its only a couple of soldiers in full head wear, but it doesn't lend the image readily of an army of blokes with Tattoos and cornrows. As for women in the Ukrainian forces, the Russians are the same, all armed forces apart from some Islamic countries allow women to serve on the frontline, this has been the case for a while. However, the Ukrainians were noted for sending women away as evacuees while the men stayed to fight the invasion. Another point raised by Peter Hitchen recently, we don't hear much about Ukrainian casualties, but there will be quite few. Yet its the Western nations and our leaders, as well as the press and public, who are getting fractious expecting a short war with an outcome along the lines of the recent campaigns in Iraq.

FB

FB

[Big Pistons Forever]

They're not in a situation to pick and choose certainly.

FB

Or They don't give a flying Fu*k about how their troops look only how they fight, which despite having lots of examples of the things you despise, seems to be quite well

[langleybaston]

Having been on Ops right up till resettlement this year- you are talking sh1te. We have no problem delivering effect. Look at the super non-woke russian armed forces, is that a better model.

Probably worth you pondering as well, were it not for the super lefty woke air force your special grandaughter wouldn't be in the RAF Regiment as a weekend warrior!

Leaving aside abuse and ad hominem, said gdaughter not special, all 5 are graduate 2.1 or above, but she had a day at Coningsby age 17 that I arranged. She was sufficiently impressed by the smart, clean, wellbehaved young people who she saw and met to consider a commission.
This track came second best (covid did not help) hence the rocks, where all have to pass a common standard.
HERE IS THE QUESTION.
Are a goodly number of suitables of all colour and gender put off these days by what they see and hear about the Wiggy agenda? Does it help or hinder recruiting and retention?

[Finningley Boy]

Or They don't give a flying Fu*k about how their troops look only how they fight, which despite having lots of examples of the things you despise, seems to be quite well
Indeed Sir, the more ponderous rules always take a back seat when circumstances determine so. Those defending the anything goes argument seem to be a tad more intemperate and revert to extremes being the only option, I've never said I despise anything, I knew many people in the RAF who had beards, all looked a credit just as in the Navy. I do think though allowing an anything goes approach is wrong. Saying things like don't give a flying Fu*k suggests that the more disconnected, individual and out of control the apppearance the better. Whereas, to you, adherence to any standards and bearing at all is a mark of incompetence.

FB

[Finningley Boy]

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ukrainian+military+parade+2021&sxsrf=AB5stBi0zLnNIadPKuLhd2iJzPvhysiPUg%3A168

Click on the link above, it shows the Ukrainian Army on parade in 2021, celebrating 30 years of independence from the old Soviet Union.

I think my old pal Smiffy would be proud!;)
FB

[bugged on the right]

I believe that by forcing members of the armed forces to comply with seemingly trivial rules related to appearance and behaviour conditions them to comply with really unpleasant orders to carry out horrendous acts. Pressing the button for example. Shooting the survivors of a nuclear exchange. Nasty stuff.

[Sky Sports]

Having been on Ops right up till resettlement this year- you are talking sh1te. We have no problem delivering effect.

Just out of curiosity, in the latest survey, were you one on the small minority who still had any confidence in the senior management?

[cheekychimp]

I believe that by forcing members of the armed forces to comply with seemingly trivial rules related to appearance and behaviour conditions them to comply with really unpleasant orders to carry out horrendous acts. Pressing the button for example. Shooting the survivors of a nuclear exchange. Nasty stuff.
I take it you've never been in the military then. Because you're talking absolute nonsense, orders are either legal or they're not. 'Shooting the survivors of a nuclear exchange ' what a load of rubbish.

[downsizer]

Just out of curiosity, in the latest survey, were you one on the small minority who still had any confidence in the senior management?

Absolutely not - one of many reasons I left.

[Toadstool]

I believe that by forcing members of the armed forces to comply with seemingly trivial rules related to appearance and behaviour conditions them to comply with really unpleasant orders to carry out horrendous acts. Pressing the button for example. Shooting the survivors of a nuclear exchange. Nasty stuff.

In my 37 years of Service, I’ve never heard of a policy concerning shooting survivors of a nuclear exchange. When I next do Op Law, LOAC and CBRN training I’ll ask the question….

I have worked for people covered in tattoos, long hair and unkempt appearance however, seeing as they were SF, I thought it best not to ask if they were woke.

[tucumseh]

In my 37 years of Service, I’ve never heard of a policy concerning shooting survivors of a nuclear exchange. When I next do Op Law, LOAC and CBRN training I’ll ask the question….


Never had to deal with that, but have certainly had to manage one related project where the Army's requirement included a capability to remotely kill their own troops. The greater good. I sat next to the Colonel charged with the job as he explained the details to me, my guess being there weren't many who would have liked to be in his shoes.

[Corporal Clott]

I see that Wokeston’s henchmen, as detailed in the NSI that appear to have given the illegal orders to Gp Capt Nicholl, feature in the latest Air Rank Appointment List. One is ‘retiring from the Service’, but the other, whilst they have not been promoted, have got another role. https://www.raf.mod.uk/our-organisation/senior-appointments/

It seems that Air Ranks can be found to knowingly give illegal orders, and oversee that they are carried out, but still keep their jobs. Does this set a precedent for Courts Martial to be overturned for lesser mortals that have also apparently broken the law? Yeah, I thought not. :ugh:

[Finningley Boy]

One thing I've noticed over the years, the Chiefs of Staff more likely to be publicly voluable tend to be found among the Navy and Army chiefs. The RAF ones have a habit of waiting until they are safely in retirement. Sir Michael Graydon recently appeared on GB News being interviewed by Nigel Farage in order to hammer his true colours to the mast. Good it was too. I've seen Sir Richard Johns being interviewed, in house so to speak, and he is no shrinking violet either. However, Mike Wigston, perhaps through his pursuit of shall we say, a modernising agenda, suddenly couldn't avoid the media, Kay Burley had him on the spot in the week leading up to the Queen's Funeral, at an outside broadcast unit just outside Buckingham Palace. He had to jump through hoops for Ms Burley.:p

FB

[tucumseh]

Sir Michael Graydon recently appeared on GB News being interviewed by Nigel Farage in order to hammer his true colours to the mast.
FB

I'm afraid Graydon revealed his true colours while CAS, when lying to Malcolm Rifkind and MRAF Sir John Grandy over the Mull of Kintyre accident. Perhaps one day he'll share with us where they should have been, given they were apparently 'miles off course'.

[Finningley Boy]

I'm afraid Graydon revealed his true colours while CAS, when lying to Malcolm Rifkind and MRAF Sir John Grandy over the Mull of Kintyre accident. Perhaps one day he'll share with us where they should have been, given they were apparently 'miles off course'.
That's a fair point, I must confess I'm not aware of much of the tragedy other than that there was an attempt from on high to blame the crew of the Chinook.

FB

PS I didn't know Sir John Grandy was involved in the BOE, he'd have been long retired by 1994/5 and about 82.

[Shadwell the old]

I have read this thread with interest. Cards on the table, I am 71, retired and served from 17 to 55 years old with a 3 year gap. So I no doubt fall into the category of an old fart, who knows nothing and is out of touch with the modern RAF's world.

I consider that an important word often neglected and that has sadly fallen into disuse is standards. I dont wear suits and rarely wear a tie (funerals only). However, I would not dream of going out with ripped jeans, a dirty shirt, or a t shirt with some profane slogan written on it. I pride myself on being smart casual. I dont swear in front of ladies, and often hold doors open for ladies and gentlemen. I always say thank you. I like to treat the ladies with respect and not in a sexist way. When I was in the Royal Air Force, my hair was neat and tidy (not necessarily short!), my uniform was presentable and appropriate to the task in hand. I was never overweight; taking pride in keeping myself fit. Most of those around me operated to the same standards. I always thought that I was a good representative for our Service.

When I hear of the RAF people with crazy hairstyles, visible tattoos and other signs of being outrageous, I think that they do so to shock. What will we have next? People in ripped uniform trousers, dining in or ladies guest nights in civvies with no bow tie. People who look a mess give the impression of low standards, who could not care less that they are a poor example of a Service which has always prided itself on being a disciplined organisation, capable of maintaining that discipline in times of trouble. I am afraid that the recent hierarchy have encouraged those standards to slip. Hopefully the new CAS will reintroduce some of the standards that we have let slip, without going overboard. If people want to take part in pride marches or other similar events, let them do so, but not in uniform. I was always taught that uniform was not fancy dress, and could not be worn for marches and political rallies.

I have seen some of the more respected members of this forum being pilloried for trying to send a message that things have gone too far. Langley Baston is a gentlemen who I would love to meet and discuss standards with over a pint of beer. The fact that his views are robustly (or rudely), challenged tells me more about the complainers than about LBs views. If you cant accept the alternate views of others, your arguments lack substance

I will no doubt attract a lot of abuse for this post, but these are my views

Shadwell

[Lordflasheart]

...
Dear Finningley Boy

Given your significant number of learned posts and your service time, I am mildly surprised to read that -

I must confess I'm not aware of much of the tragedy other than that there was an attempt from on high to blame the crew of the Chinook.

May I recommend a bit of light hearted technical reading by noted expert author David Hill, to bring you up to speed on this particular MoD scandal ?

1. "Their Greatest Disgrace - The campaign to clear the Chinook ZD576 pilots."

2. "The Inconvenient Truth - Chinook ZD576 - Cause and culpability." (with John Blakeley)

They're both instantly available in Kindle format for very few shekels, which all goes to charity.

I suspect the late Sir John Grandy (1913 - 2004) may have weighed in for his old mates without having much of a clue about the event, and far too soon to be aware of the eventual exposure and admission of the institutional lying and airworthiness cheating by MoD etc, as described in the two books mentioned above - and in other similar current and on-going exposes (including police investigation) such as 'Red 5' and 'A Noble Anger'

Kind regards, LFH .
...
,,,
....
..

[Finningley Boy]

...
Dear Finningley Boy

Given your significant number of learned posts and your service time, I am mildly surprised to read that -



May I recommend a bit of light hearted technical reading by noted expert author David Hill, to bring you up to speed on this particular MoD scandal ?

1. "Their Greatest Disgrace - The campaign to clear the Chinook ZD576 pilots."

2. "The Inconvenient Truth - Chinook ZD576 - Cause and culpability." (with John Blakeley)

They're both instantly available in Kindle format for very few shekels, which all goes to charity.

I suspect the late Sir John Grandy (1913 - 2004) may have weighed in for his old mates without having much of a clue about the event, and far too soon to be aware of the eventual exposure and admission of the institutional lying and airworthiness cheating by MoD etc, as described in the two books mentioned above - and in other similar current and on-going exposes (including police investigation) such as 'Red 5' and 'A Noble Anger'

Kind regards, LFH .
...
,,,
....
..
Thank you Sir,

I don't read kindle and do hope I won't attract critique for that particular luddite characteristic, however, I shall acquaint myself with the greater detail.

FB

PS "I'm not aware of much of the tragedy" is a relative comment.

[bugged on the right]

I take it you've never been in the military then. Because you're talking absolute nonsense, orders are either legal or they're not. 'Shooting the survivors of a nuclear exchange ' what a load of rubbish.

You took it wrong. Orders to carry out meaningless tasks can be completely legal. The legality is irrelevant. Didn't you ever wonder why you had been ordered to carry out a trivial task? That is what gradually builds a reaction where you carry out an order without question. Might get a bullet otherwise. Unfortunately I believe that the responsibility for working out what is legal about an order is now upon the recipient. As for the nuclear exchange, in the aftermath with people in their death throes, what do you think any surviving armed forces are going to do? Obviously you have other ideas to me.

[cheekychimp]

You took it wrong. Orders to carry out meaningless tasks can be completely legal. The legality is irrelevant. Didn't you ever wonder why you had been ordered to carry out a trivial task? That is what gradually builds a reaction where you carry out an order without question. Might get a bullet otherwise. Unfortunately I believe that the responsibility for working out what is legal about an order is now upon the recipient. As for the nuclear exchange, in the aftermath with people in their death throes, what do you think any surviving armed forces are going to do? Obviously you have other ideas to me.
Yes, realistic ones.

[Asturias56]

As far back as the BBC documentary "War Game" in 1966 the security forces are shown shooting those who have severe radiation poisoning and burns as part of a triage system.

[Chugalug2]

FB :-
PS I didn't know Sir John Grandy was involved in the BOE, he'd have been long retired by 1994/5 and about 82.

He was 'involved' by the then CAS, Graydon, 'informing' him that two 'grossly negligent' pilots of the Mull chinook were 'miles off course'. Apart from anything else it shines a light into the workings of the Star Chamber. Grandy might have been old, he might have no longer been serving, but he was an MRAF and hence someone Graydon felt obliged to report too (falsely or otherwise). In short he was lied to like a cheap Changi watch and the lie made public. MRAFs have their uses...

Other have mentioned ACM Sir Michael Alcock, ex RAF Chief Engineer. Readers of David Hill's various books about the dire effects on UK Military Airworthiness due to VSO actions (and inactions) will be familiar with his name. Whether they be Engineers, Aircrew, or Administrators, VSOs are simply people, like the rest of us. It is by their actions that they should be judged. That holds true for both the present and past RAF leadership. There is nothing inherently good or bad about engineers any more than there is about aircrew.

Like LFH I would commend all David Hill's books. If you were never told much about airworthiness in training (I certainly wasn't!) his expertise and experience of the system will be an eye opener and reveal the cover up of deliberate VSO subversion of airworthiness that the Star Chamber has invoked since the mid 90s (the subversion being to plunder its heretofore ring fenced budgets for plugging up those wrecked by VSO incompetence). UK Military Airworthiness is still dysfunctional and compromises UK Air Power to this day.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/David-Hill/e/B01IVZMRGA?ref=sr_ntt_srch_lnk_5&qid=1690112259&sr=1-5

[Jimlad1]

As far back as the BBC documentary "War Game" in 1966 the security forces are shown shooting those who have severe radiation poisoning and burns as part of a triage system.

having delved deeply into post strike war planning, there was no plans to shoot the injured survivors. Those badly affected by radiation were to have been left to their fate in the zones that were too contaminated. No one was coming to rescue them.

[Asturias56]

IIRC "Wargame" was set outside the worst hit areas. I seem to remember in the furore that the writers claimed that there was some evidence that it had happened in certain situations in Germany late in the war.

But then they would say that.

I can't believe that anyone would be mad enough to write that down on a piece of paper in the UK.

[cheekychimp]

I have read this thread with interest. Cards on the table, I am 71, retired and served from 17 to 55 years old with a 3 year gap. So I no doubt fall into the category of an old fart, who knows nothing and is out of touch with the modern RAF's world.

I consider that an important word often neglected and that has sadly fallen into disuse is standards.

Shadwell
Unfortunately, that is where your argument falls down. These people with long hair, beards, tattooed necks etc etc are conforming to the standards laid down in Kings Regulations. They may not be to your standards, or even mine (currently RAF Regt FS with 36 years in) but, like it or not, they are what the RAF want. They all know it's ridiculous in uniform, they are just taking advantage of stupid rules. Times change, the airmen of 1918 would have mocked the airmen of 1948 for being undisciplined slackers. Harsh as it sounds, the day you leave the gate is the day your opinion is just hot air.

[langleybaston]

Unfortunately, that is where your argument falls down. These people with long hair, beards, tattooed necks etc etc are conforming to the standards laid down in Kings Regulations. They may not be to your standards, or even mine (currently RAF Regt FS with 36 years in) but, like it or not, they are what the RAF want. They all know it's ridiculous in uniform, they are just taking advantage of stupid rules. Times change, the airmen of 1918 would have mocked the airmen of 1948 for being undisciplined slackers. Harsh as it sounds, the day you leave the gate is the day your opinion is just hot air.

It is probably also true that the day you enter the gate your opinion is hot air: KRs Rule OK.
How long before the King's Colour Squadron ceases to excel with its impeccable appearance and drill?

[alfred_the_great]

It is probably also true that the day you enter the gate your opinion is hot air: KRs Rule OK.
How long before the King's Colour Squadron ceases to excel with its impeccable appearance and drill?
and glow in the dark rifles…

[Asturias56]

"How long before the King's Colour Squadron ceases to excel with its impeccable appearance and drill?"

Is there any connection between impeccable drill and war fighting ability?

I can think of a lot of scruffs who hammered beautifully turned out units. The original SAS, the Chindits, the Boers, the Israeli Army, the Taliban come to mind - a bit short on smartness but a lot more lethal

[langleybaston]

[QUOTE=Asturias56;11472795]"How long before the King's Colour Squadron ceases to excel with its impeccable appearance and drill?"

Is there any connection between impeccable drill and war fighting ability?

Probably, but of course the connection is not inevitable. Scruffy soldiers can be a useless rabble, and bullsh1t bandits can run away at the first contact.
What does play a part in war fighting is esprit de corps and self-esteem, some of which stems from discipline, self discipline, reputation and the ability to turn on the swank. ARRSE abounds with inter unit bragging.
The unique role of the RAF [except the regiment] detaches slightly from the army logic, which may be at the heart of the discussions in this thread.
But surely every serving and retired member of this forum has some pride in the KCS on parade? [Has the title formally changed from QCS ......... some strange change/ don't change titles abound, like King's Troop RHA, which remained so throughout our late Queen's reign].

[farefield]

"I can think of a lot of scruffs who hammered beautifully turned out units. The original SAS, the Chindits, the Boers, the Israeli Army, the Taliban come to mind - a bit short on smartness but a lot more lethal"


It's a bit difficult to remain smartly turned out in the desert, jungle, veldt, desert, mountains.

[SOX80]

I have generally found that the level of polish on a pilots boots increases in an inverse proportion to their tactical ability. Likewise the ironing of flying suits (ironing in creases in a flying suit indicating a significant probability of strapping in facing backwards)

[Asturias56]

"I can think of a lot of scruffs who hammered beautifully turned out units. The original SAS, the Chindits, the Boers, the Israeli Army, the Taliban come to mind - a bit short on smartness but a lot more lethal"


It's a bit difficult to remain smartly turned out in the desert, jungle, veldt, desert, mountains.

But we don't fight people on the parade ground (well....)

[Finningley Boy]

But we don't fight people on the parade ground (well....)
There's something in these points, there are plenty of images from the Second World War particularly, Fighter pilots wearing part civilian clothes, paisely, diced and polka dot cravats etc. Then yes, the LDPG, as the SAS originally were, with their beards and vagabond appearance, there was a reason for the latter and somehow the former just seemed to make the image of the steely eyed Ace. But none of them would look like that on parade, only in their place of work where the circumstances weren't so much accommodating as demanding. If you've ever seen, and I'm sure many of you have, at least once, the old 1960 film, Tunes of Glory. There is the current acting up CO, Lt Col Sinclair (Alec Guiness) and his definitve replacement, Lt Col Barrow (John Mills). The former maintains his selection of regimental traditions, Whisky drinking champoin and qualified piper etc. He's also up from the ranks, Barlinnie, Boy Piper and wartime commission with a DSO and an MM to go with all his campaign medals. His replacement Barrow, Eton and Oxford, Sandhurst from the start, expert on Jungle warfare, Sandhurst lecturer and spent most of the war as a POW having been surrendered in Singapore. He has no gallantry awards, but through no fault of his own.

The first half hour of the film sees Barrow accompanied by Sinclair and others inspecting the Battalion and finding faults with improperly dressed bandsmen, Tam o'Shanters instead of the regulation Glengarry., tardy training periods and worst of all a rancorious dance by the officers on his arrival. Sinclair tries to interject with, well we have a wee tradition in this regiment Colonel, I let the band wear pretty much much as they like, as was common during the war. The last sentence says it all, ponderous dress regulations went out the window, there just wasn;t the time or really the facilities to try and enforce parade ground regulations. This was the difference between troops in the field and those in peacetime with a different order of proceedings. But this is all different to now, the choice of hair length and grooming as depicted in the photo of the Sergeant, shows someone going out of his way to shove to fingers up at the past and the long standing culture and traditions of,military service. As has been said by CheekyChimp, I don't actually believe that even Wigston really wants this, but that he feels, as pr00ne implied, its the only way to retain skilled people. Therefore, Wigston, who certainly wasn't brought up in an RAF which reflects the one he seems to have attempted to cultivate, has pursued a path of what he sees as mere practicalities, if we are to maintain a standing Navy/Marines, Army and Air Force at all.

FB

[cheekychimp]

, I don't actually believe that even Wigston really wants this, but that he feels, as pr00ne implied, its the only way to retain skilled people. Therefore, Wigston, who certainly wasn't brought up in an RAF which reflects the one he seems to have attempted to cultivate, has pursued a path of what he sees as mere practicalities, if we are to maintain a standing Navy/Marines, Army and Air Force at all.

FB
I don't think he really wanted it, I believe he was given some very bad gen from certain people. Unfortunately for the rest of us, it then became a sad game of The Emperor's new clothes 'excellent stuff Sir!' Everyone, excepting the clowns who came up with all of it of course, knew it was ridiculous but no-one said anything. Now we've reached the point where some of my friends, who have said they wouldn't dream of having a beard in civvie street, have beards 'because they can' it'll be the same with pony tails etc soon.

[Lima Juliet]

The regs appear in AP1358 RAF Dress and Appearance, and not in King’s Regulations.

Here is a link to similar:
https://www.raf.mod.uk/news/articles/revision-to-raf-appearance-policies-for-women/

Interestingly, it seems to automatically refresh the Twitter link to Sir Rich rather than Wigston who made the policy switch. Not great really, because that now means that Sir Rich is linked to previous policy announcements on Twitter!

As for the pony tail - sometimes it looks smart when platted or cornrowed - but as a bog standard pony tail it often looks scruffy and sometimes with a beret more like a Davy Crockett hat! :E Pride in appearance needs to meet some basic standard. I would suggest that the photo of this NCO, in an ill fitting shirt with a fat back hanging over the chair, with their unkept beard and scraggy plaits half way down their back, falls below that standard that AP1358 seeks to set:

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1155x1529/img_6859_882126562bcec5ade924189161a0ad55adbee327.jpeg

This is the link to the beard policy - they don’t appear to meet that either. https://www.raf.mod.uk/serving-families/raf-serving-families-news/facial-hair-policy/

[Lima Juliet]

This is what the current regs state - further guidance is given in AP3393 Vol 4 for religious purposes.

0152. Hair – All Personnel. Canerows, cornrows, twists and braids are permitted. Hair worn in this manner is to be no longer than the bottom edge of the collar of the Service jacket if worn down and must be tied back if longer. All personnel (who chose to) may wear a turban of approved Service pattern and colour, instead of uniform headdress. The appropriate cap badge is to be fitted centrally on the turban. When necessary to wear specialist head gear such as combat helmet or flying helmet, the turban is to be removed and the hair can be covered using a hair net. SP may wear a head wrap when required for occupational reasons (e.g. stewards, technicians, engineers). The head wrap is to be dark in colour with no branding or patterns. These are not to be worn on ceremonial events. Thin hair bobbles, bands or elastics (no wider than 10mm) may be worn with working dress but must be of a similar colour to the hair or black. Hair clips, grips etc may be worn but must be plain and of a similar colour to the wearer's hair or black. Hair beads or hair adornments / jewellery are not to be worn when in uniform. Fabric covered hair bobbles (scrunchies) may be worn with working dress but must be inconspicuous and either of a similar colour to the hair or black. These are not to be worn on parade. Aircrew are not to wear hair clips and grips when flying for health and safety purposes.Hairdressing and Cosmetics - Men.

0153. Hair – Men. The hair of the head is to be well cut and trimmed, permitting service headdress to be worn (“topknots” which compromise the wearing of headdress for example are not permitted). Men may not grow their hair long, unless for religious / medical reasons or to wear their hair iaw para 0152 above. Where it is permitted for hair to be grown longer, hair longer than the bottom edge of the collar must be tied back neatly in either a bun, a single plait or a ponytail. The plait or ponytail should aim to be no wider than the wearer’s head (width of the hair after the hair tie for the ponytail or width of the plait) and where this is unavoidable not beyond mid shoulder. It should be no longer in length than where the top of the belt would be if worn in No 2 Uniform. Where hair is grown as a tenet of adherence to faith, it is permissible for the hair to not comply with the characteristics set out above. All hairstyles iaw this policy must enable service headdress to be worn correctly. Sideburns are to be short, well-trimmed and are not to extend below a line running through the mid-point of the ear. Regardless of hair length, no separate sections of hair may be shaved (this does not mean individuals may not shave their entire head, or have different lengths of hair (i.e. 2 on sides and 4 on top), merely that there must not be an extreme difference in length between the side of the hair and top of the head). This list is not exhaustive, but no patterns; shapes; “undercuts” or fully shaved sides, long on top styles are permitted. Individuals whose hair does not comply with this policy (with the exception of those who have done so for any religious or medical reasons) are to be ordered to modify their hair such that it does. If the hair is dyed or highlighted, the colour chosen is to be natural and in a uniform shade appropriate to the individual. Any individual who does not comply or who is repeatedly found to breach the policy is to be considered for administrative action (either Minor or Major as appropriate to the circumstances). APC or RLO advice is to be sought where there is any doubt. Individual Chains of Command do not need to approve hair styles (such as cornrows and canerows), but are responsible for ensuring that this policy is adhered to.

So in the case of the NCO above, then anyone who works with them are probably not upholding the intent of the AP above. It is quite clear that they break the policy on beard length, hair style and long hair policy.

Finally, my mistake, there are lines in KR209 and KR210 about beards too.

[cheekychimp]

"The standard you walk past, is the standard you accept" looks like no-one is bothered in his CoC or on Station. The horror !!!

[SLXOwft]

The USN and USCG banned beards in the mid-1980s except for those with exemptions for skin conditions who can grow a maximum of 1/4". Recently it allowed beards for retired personnel while wearing uniform. It also recently lost a court case which means beards can be warn for religious reasons.
Adm. James Watkins, the chief of naval operations at the time, explained his decision requiring sailors to shave by saying he had determined that few service members had beards, making those who do appear “extremely un-uniform,” according to an Associated Press report published shortly after the prohibition took effect.

Watkins added that beards could pose a safety hazard in such contingencies as oxygen mask wear. Mustaches were not covered by the ban, the AP noted. The service does regulate their size and length, though.

This reg amused me - I am sure we all agree on the FOD point :)

2201. PERSONAL APPEARANCE
(...)
3. HAIRPIECES. Wigs or hairpieces shall be of good quality and fit, present a natural appearance and conform to the grooming standards set forth in these regulations. They shall not interfere with the proper performance of duty nor present a safety or FOD (Foreign Object Damage) hazard.

In the UK, the senior service's regulations remain more conservative than those of the junior service.

BRd 3(1) Chapter 38

3818 Male Personnel
a. Hair. Hair shall be neatly groomed; taper trimmed at the back, sides and above the ears to blend with the hairstyle. On the top of the head it shall be no more than 15 cm in length and sufficiently short at the front and sides that when the hair is groomed, and headdress removed, no hair shall touch the ears or fall below the top of the eyebrows. It shall be kept above the shirt collar. Cultural and religious exceptions are described at Para 3827(Sikhs) and Para 3828 (Rastafarians).

b. Hair shall be no greater than 4 cm in bulk at the top of the head, with the bulk decreasing gradually from the top and blending with the taper-trimmed back and sides. Bulk is defined as the distance that the mass of hair protrudes from the scalp when groomed, as distinct from the length of the hair. Styling shall not present an exaggerated or non-conformist appearance, nor shall it interfere with the proper wearing of headdress. Excessively short hair can detract from a smart and well-groomed appearance, however, it may be permitted at the discretion of the Commanding Officer. Unnatural hair colours (ie. those colours that are not within the colour range of the individual's natural hair colour) are not permitted.

c. Sideburns. Sideburns shall not extend below the ear lobe, shall be of even width, and shall be taper trimmed and squared off to conform to the overall hair style. Sideburns for RM Personnel shall not extend below halfway down the ear.

d. Beards and Moustaches. The Commanding Officer may permit all Naval Service (except RM) male personnel to request to wear full set beards. RM male personnel may wear moustaches at their discretion. Beards and moustaches shall be kept neatly trimmed especially, in the case of beards, at the lower neck and cheekbones. It is within the subjective judgement of the Command (and delegated representatives, namely the Executive Dept and all personnel in positions of authority (LH/LCpl and above)) to define an acceptable appearance of a beard, as much depends on the features of the individual. However, as a guide the following characteristics are not acceptable:(1) 'Designer Stubble'. Designer stubble is assessed as any beard length shorter than Grade 1 (2.5mm).

(2) Beards of Uneven Growth (eg. 'scrappy'). The definition of 'scrappy' remains within the subjective judgement of the Command (and delegated representatives, namely the Executive Dept and all personnel in positions of authority (LH/LCpl and above)).

(3) Extended or 'hipster' Beards or ‘handlebar’ moushaches. Extended or 'hipster' beards or ‘handlebar’/extended moustaches are not appropriate. The maximum acceptable length of a beard is to be Grade 8 (25.5mm).

(4) Beards Taking Excessive Time to Grow. The definition of an 'excessive amount of time to grow' remains within the subjective judgement of the Command (and delegated representatives, namely the Executive Dept and all personnel in positions of authority (LH/LCpl and above)). The advised maximum time for an individual to grow a sufficiently thorough beard is 2 weeks.

(5) Religious or Faith Reasons. Where facial hair is grown as a tenet of a faith by a genuine adherence to that faith, it may be grown in excess of the limit described above at sub para (3). Such facial hair may require to be trimmed, however, or be tied up or removed if it undermines the health and safety of the wearer or others in the unit, or if it undermines the operational effectiveness of the unit. Any faith or practice must be clearly established by an individual and not simply deemed as having been undertaken in order to defy the regulations contained within this BR.
e. When the safety of an individual might be jeopardised by his beard or moustache, such as in the wearing of oxygen or gas masks, it shall be modified in such a fashion as to accommodate the type of equipment to be worn. The Commanding Officer retains the authority to determine the requirement for an individual to shave, based on the Operational requirement at that time. Once ARTS testing has been completed, COs ARE to order the shaving of beards when the CBRN threat level is MEDIUM or higher. Other occasions, such as Operational Sea Training and/or similar exercises, in which the CBRN threat is LOW will not warrant the requirement to shave. If the individual refuses to modify their facial hair (or headdress) to the extent necessary to maintain their own safety and Operational Capability, then they may be disciplined. Should they continue to refuse, commanders should consider not deploying that individual into theatre or removing them from theatre if already deployed. Disciplinary action and non-deployment are in extremis measures that should be adopted incrementally.

f. Beards or moustaches shall be shaved off if the conditions of Para 3818 sub para e cannot be met.

g. In addition to the guidance at Para 3818 sub para e, the Command may order individuals to shave off beards deemed inappropriate for a Service Parade of any nature.

h. Beards should be of a length that does not extend beyond the top part of the collar front of a service shirt. More specifically, if the Naval serviceman was wearing a shirt and tie, the beard would not obscure the knot of the tie. The breadth of the beard should not exceed the maximum width of the line between the Naval serviceman’s ears.

[oldmansquipper]

Talking of rampant wokism…..(and ever so slightly off piste)

consider this phrase:

'The Global Majority’


According to my Veterans Breakfast date , this is the latest PC buzphraze. apparently to be trotted out by meejah 'virtue signallers' everywhere. It assumes that, as the majority of the world population is ....erm...'non white'....(careful, 🤫careful) more emphasis 'must be placed on the will of the majority’

Glad to hear it. and not before time.

However....as an 'ageing male wasp', can I now look forward to disproportionate representation in the meejah because I am now officially part if an 'ethnic minority'?

I'm not holding my breath.

Oh, and I will continue to steal oxygen for as long as I can.

🤭

[Biggus]

The majority of people in this country aren't trans. Can we expect to see more emphasis placed on the will of the "majority" in this particular situation...?

Thought not!

[bugged on the right]

I look forward to the Global Majority being as productive as the Global Minority so we can put our feet up and take it easy.

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

I had to sit through an EDI Induction session a couple of weeks ago. "GEM" (Global Ethnic Majority) is the new PC name replacing BAME.

Hard to keep up when names/titles/genders that were PC yesterday are suddenly offensive today.

NEO

[Nil_Drift]

"GEM" (Global Ethnic Majority) is the new PC name replacing BAME.

GEM was a scheme introduced back in 1996 for Engineering suggestions. There is evidently now a need to invent a new TLA (Three Letter Abbreviation) for the engineers to use, lots of paperwork changes, months of fruitful work. Perhaps there will be a new office created headed by a 1* with all the necessary staff?

Of course, the costs will have to come from within so, sorry to all the 'aviators' who still have no hot water, comfortable sleeping arrangements and poor rations, just be cheered that you are doing your bit for the majority that used to be the minority!

[tucumseh]

GEM was a scheme introduced back in 1996 for Engineering suggestions. There is evidently now a need to invent a new TLA (Three Letter Abbreviation) for the engineers to use, lots of paperwork changes, months of fruitful work. Perhaps there will be a new office created headed by a 1* with all the necessary staff?




I never knew GEMS was for engineers only. You learn something new...

I knew engineering project managers whose suggestions were accepted, but there could be no financial reward on the grounds it was part of their job, as at that time they were required to be able to do every job in the team. I knew the lady who headed it. Her hubby was an RN officer. She politely explained this and quite happily admitted the suggestions would be scrutinised by admin, sat on for a while, then resubmitted by someone who was eligible.

[BEagle]

I won £25 for a GEMS back in the '90s, so no - it wasn't just for engineers!

I submitted another suggesting that the proposed JTIDS system for the VC10K should use the aircraft's new EGI system for aircraft position and time, rather than the standalone GNSS which was on the cards at the time. Which saved £LOTS - and was eventually adopted into the architecture. But my GEMS was rebuffed.

[dctyke]

I won £25 for a GEMS back in the '90s, so no - it wasn't just for engineers!

I submitted another suggesting that the proposed JTIDS system for the VC10K should use the aircraft's new EGI system for aircraft position and time, rather than the standalone GNSS which was on the cards at the time. Which saved £LOTS - and was eventually adopted into the architecture. But my GEMS was rebuffed.


I invented a tool for working on ejection seats, I received £250 and a form to sign handing over any rights to it. Not long before a nice shiny chrome version was sold by Martin Baker Ltd.

[Finningley Boy]

GEM was a scheme introduced back in 1996 for Engineering suggestions. There is evidently now a need to invent a new TLA (Three Letter Abbreviation) for the engineers to use, lots of paperwork changes, months of fruitful work. Perhaps there will be a new office created headed by a 1* with all the necessary staff?

Of course, the costs will have to come from within so, sorry to all the 'aviators' who still have no hot water, comfortable sleeping arrangements and poor rations, just be cheered that you are doing your bit for the majority that used to be the minority!
Nildrift, Couldn't they continue with GEM for Engineers alongside the new GEM for the non-white majority? Afterall, there was a genuinely egregious duplication of the acronym RAF at one time. Those of a particular vintage, or with an interest in modern history, will recall the Red Army Faction! Better known as the Baader Meinhof Gang.

FB

[Nil_Drift]

so no - it wasn't just for engineers!

Maybe I should have said in "the engineering environment" in that anyone could make the suggestion for an improvement to a piece of engineering equipment but its fulfilment would be by an engineering solution, as in your case, too.

I invented a personal FOD box when I was a Techie in the early 80's. It fitted in to a usual tool tray but any locking wire or masking tape or loose articles could be dropped into a one-way slot in the top rather than it all being loose in the tool tray and then blow across the ASP. When back in the Line, the close-fitting top would be removed and the contents safely disposed of. I put in a lot of work, building prototypes in aluminium, but it was never taken on.

[ZH875]

I was lucky enough to have two GEMS awards. One for an RWR program loading unit multiple unit charger/reprogramming during GW1, and one for a suite of programs to manage the TPFS at MPA in 1999/2000.

[oldmansquipper]

I never knew GEMS was for engineers only. You learn something new...

I knew engineering project managers whose suggestions were accepted, but there could be no financial reward on the grounds it was part of their job, as at that time they were required to be able to do every job in the team. I knew the lady who headed it. Her hubby was an RN officer. She politely explained this and quite happily admitted the suggestions would be scrutinised by admin, sat on for a while, then resubmitted by someone who was eligible.

Tuc. In another life I was, in part, responsible for assessing and approving trade related GEMs that came to HQSTC for staffing before going onwards…Some were pretty damn good. I had a few ideas myself, but as you say, there was no financial reward for us at my level. I recall that a couple of them were resubmitted by junior ranks and were accepted. I had no idea how they came up with the same idea independently…🤔😉