Can Wigston survive the onslaught?

[Mr. Vice]

Most people on this forum from the UK are likely to be tracking the current scandals engulfing the Royal Air Force at a Senior Leadership level.

Can the Chief of the Air Staff really survive this onslaught?

No statement has been released from his office. Ben Wallace is not known to pity fools, I wonder what conversations are occurring behind closed doors.

Genuinely trying to spark some debate, the RAF seems to be in disarray according to the media…

Mr Vice.

[Nil_Drift]

I suppose it depends on what he was actually briefed to do. I know that Ben Wallace said he only had one job to do and that was to sort out pilot training, but the politicians dictate what the CAS can or can't do.
That being said, the man has single-handedly destroyed the whole ethos of the RAF while doing nothing about the real issues of infrastructure, retention, training, Service life in general, and I, for one, will be very glad to see him go.
Perhaps Gerry Mayhew is being warmed up to take over very soon?

[Wrathmonk]

What with the MFTS fiasco as well can any of the “Senior Commanders” (as identified on the RAF website) survive? Whilst, I assume, the buck stops with Wiggy the others are all complicit. If I was a one star or above and currently in a joint, overseas or NATO appointment etc. I would be keeping my ear very close to the ground as a few new brooms may be required (assuming these individuals don’t have ‘dirty hands’ from their previous appointment(s)).

[MG]

Standard Pprune, the thread has drifted within 4 posts, and not in a positive way. Senior officer numbers vs aircraft numbers is an old and irrelevant equation.
the OP asks a very relevant question and this post would benefit from directly addressing it.

My opinion: even today in the papers, there are column inches dedicated to this, and that’s a long time in politics. I think it’s time for him to finally do the right thing and to go. There is no other way that the reputation is going to start improving. Beyond that, the direction to the new chief needs to be set by the new PM and I imagine that will be to fix the pipeline (of all types), and nothing more.

[Chugalug2]

I see this thread has broadened out quickly from the OP's pre-occupation with the CAS. I have always felt that the structure of the RAF is its Achilles Heel. Unlike the other two Services which evolved over time to provide a command structure that served their purposes, the RAF was designed from the get go, and the purpose it served was to be politically controllable so that its very existence was approved by a government that wanted more bang for its buck. That worked out well then, didn't it? The result is that leaders, rather than managers, aren't needed much outside of the station gates. The need is simply for managers to man the various levels of the pyramid. Of course they are given impressive titles to suggest otherwise; Air Officer Commanding, Air Officer Commanding -in-Chief, etc, but in reality they are managers, and like all managers, pave their way to the top not by leadership but by plunging knives into the backs of their competitors and/or dreaming up 'good ideas' that no-one else had bothered with. Nothing new there, think 'Big Wings'...

The real Royal Air Force has always been behind those Station Gates, particularly in times of total war. When it was massively expanded it naturally threw up many more leaders which went on to fill the pyramid. The likes of Mickey Martin and Gus Walker that my generation was fortunate to serve under. The dross took over quickly enough though, and normal service was resumed. I know this is all broad-brush generalisation and massively unfair to those Air Officers who dedicated their lives to the RAF rather than themselves, but the system was against them and is now to all intents and purposes bust. What needs to be done to fix it is beyond me. I prefer smaller fish to fry, the reform of UK Military Airworthiness and Accident Investigation by making them both independent of the MOD (and all those RAF Air Officers) and of each other. RAF VSOs have heavily compromised the airworthiness of all UK Military Aircraft and are now it seems setting out to compromise the crews that man them. Goering could not have wished for more!

[Wrathmonk]

And within 5 posts……

[MG]

This post is about whether the current CAS can/should survive, it’s not about airworthiness, which has been subject to many posts by you. For once, can you allow it to remain relatively on topic?

[Chugalug2]

My post wasn't about airworthiness (other than a personal aside in passing). It wasn't about the CAS either, I must admit. Others though seem to share my view that there is a systemic fault in the RAF that throws up this particular CAS and the rest of the RAF High Command. It just so happens it is that same systemic fault that has compromised UK Military Air Safety and in particular the 'A' word.

There, MG, I didn't even mention airworthiness now did I? Oh, sorry!

[MG]

My post wasn't about airworthiness (other than a personal aside in passing). It wasn't about the CAS either, I must admit. Others though seem to share my view that there is a systemic fault in the RAF that throws up this particular CAS and the rest of the RAF High Command. It just so happens it is that same systemic fault that has compromised UK Military Air Safety and in particular the 'A' word.

There, MG, I didn't even mention airworthiness now did I? Oh, sorry!

I agree, there is a systematic fault that brings up this type of CAS and that’s part of the discussion. Let’s have a separate thread about the MAA and its faults. What, there are plenty of those? Really?

[Haraka]

As one boss of mine said before he PVR'd at the end of the70's " Äll they are looking for now is bloody functionaries! "

[The Nip]

Most people on this forum from the UK are likely to be tracking the current scandals engulfing the Royal Air Force at a Senior Leadership level.

Can the Chief of the Air Staff really survive this onslaught?

No statement has been released from his office. Ben Wallace is not known to pity fools, I wonder what conversations are occurring behind closed doors.

Genuinely trying to spark some debate, the RAF seems to be in disarray according to the media…

Mr Vice.

No. He has become the story/headlines. That never ends well.

[Chugalug2]

I agree, there is a systematic fault that brings up this type of CAS and that’s part of the discussion. Let’s have a separate thread about the MAA and its faults. What, there are plenty of those? Really?

I am overjoyed that we share common ground at last MG, but if you agree to open out the discussion from the CAS to the RAF and its supposed systemic faults aren't you becoming part of the heresy you accuse me of? This CAS (and the RAF's leadership in general) is as much a symptom of that systemic fault as is the dire lack of Airworthiness. You approve of discussing the first symptom here but not the second. Now why, I wonder? They are trees in the same wood and they all need to be seen because they all can kill. Certainly lowering standards of aircrew recruitment in the name of 'positive discrimination' will kill just as surely as lack of airworthiness does. Covering up the latter has already killed too many. This isn't a parlour game!

[MG]

I am overjoyed that we share common ground at last MG, but if you agree to open out the discussion from the CAS to the RAF and its supposed systemic faults aren't you becoming part of the heresy you accuse me of? This CAS (and the RAF's leadership in general) is as much a symptom of that systemic fault as is the dire lack of Airworthiness. You approve of discussing the first symptom here but not the second. Now why, I wonder? They are trees in the same wood and they all need to be seen because they all can kill. Certainly lowering standards of aircrew recruitment in the name of 'positive discrimination' will kill just as surely as lack of airworthiness does. Covering up the latter has already killed too many. This isn't a parlour game!

You are seriously over analysing my words and intent, and you have found another outlet to bang the military airworthiness cover up issue. Not all topics fit that.
My intent now is to go and enjoy a brunch and let you over analyse that.

[Chugalug2]

Over analysed what? We agree that the RAF High Command is what it is because of the systemic fault designed into the RAF from the start. Because the RAF High Command is what it is we have this CAS and his woke disciples. Because the RAF High Command is what it is we have the cover up that has led to too many airworthiness related fatal accidents, and will go on doing so until there is real reform of Air Regulation and Accident Investigation. That isn't the reverse side of the same coin, it's the very same side of the same coin! The problem is the same RAF High Command that this thread has rightly opened out to discussion. Chopping the head off that High Command will simply mean replacing it with much the same.

Stove-piping fatal air accidents is classic cover up. Now it seems it is extended to the systemic faults of the RAF itself, some of which should not be up for discussion here.

Have a nice brunch, MG.

[NutLoose]

Air accidents I would like to see investigated independently, surely something like NATO led investigations could be run, with a lead country from one that operates the type, so it’s full and frank assessment with no sweeping the result under the carpet. I would have said the AAIB but one should imagine that has ex military involved.

[Bengo]

Wigston et al might just be lucky.


Naming a new CAS is a call for Min Def and the PM. PM is on holiday, even if in Whitehall. Wallace is not about to start rocking boats, at least until the potential PM's give him a hint as to future employment prospects and anyway he probably has a deskful of Ukrainian stuff and a CGS warning loudly and often that the Army needs to buy replacements for the kit and ammunition sent East. Civil Service advice will be to not take immediate action in current circumstances.

That says to me no push from Main Building, and, as the press will probably get bored early next week, the media pressure will dissipate allowing things to settle, at least until there is a new PM and/or Minister.

Don't give Wigston much hope in the longer term though.

N

[DaveReidUK]

I would have said the AAIB but one should imagine that has ex military involved.

Starting with its head, in fact.

[Navaleye]

It's the usual 2 answers when it comes down to something like this.

1. The system is broken
2. Someone isn't using it correctly

Either way its a shambles

[charliegolf]

Who was the last airship (let's say 2*+) to get sacked?

CG

[xenolith]

Who was the last airship (let's say 2*+) to get sacked?

CG
That would be Andy T......................... Sorry my mistake he resigned....

[MACH2NUMBER]

Hi,
in my experience of NATO airworthiness, albeit 14 years ago, I would say you should find a more accomplished organisation.

[Wrathmonk]

Who was the last airship (let's say 2*+) to get sacked?

CG

Sacked as in shown the door? I’d say Peter Harding.

Sacked as in moved sidewards to avoid causing more damage (pre the ‘up or out’ days) would we ever know?

Same question could be asked about station and/or squadron commanders. When was one held accountable (other than a sideways posting at tourex and a couple of years extra in rank)?

[charliegolf]

snipped...
Sacked as in moved sidewards to avoid causing more damage (pre the ‘up or out’ days) would we ever know?


Kinda my point... He's going nowhere. In every sense of the word.

CG

[snapper41]

I sincerely hope he does not survive. On his watch, in no particular order:

Beards

Star Trek new uniform

’Aviators’

Diversity targets

Non-use of RAF Regt when withdrawing from Kabul

[tucumseh]

I sincerely hope he does not survive. On his watch, in no particular order:

Beards

Star Trek new uniform

’Aviators’

Diversity targets

Non-use of RAF Regt when withdrawing from Kabul


+

Found negligent by Coroner; only escaping gross negligence, and hence corporate manslaughter charge, by dint of lying by omission and the law not permitting her to reopen when she found out.

(I wonder why the media didn't report that one?)

[MPN11]

Having worked under the Scottish Air Commodore [as he was then], I have the view that some are unstoppable and totally fireproof.

[Wrathmonk]

Having worked under the Scottish Air Commodore [as he was then], I have the view that some are unstoppable and totally fireproof.

Because they are always one step ahead of the 5hit storm. Do enough to get the required ticks in the box for promotion and move on. Could say the same for a large number of people across many ranks!

[Wrathmonk]

Kinda my point... He's going nowhere. In every sense of the word.

CG

Soz, my reading between the one line skills are clearly lacking 😁

[NutLoose]

I don’t know why the do not send out a questionnaire to all the troops asking their opinion before announcing major changes.

[MPN11]

Because they are always one step ahead of the 5hit storm. Do enough to get the required ticks in the box for promotion and move on. Could say the same for a large number of people across many ranks!
He was clearly fireproofed. He was witnessed at a meeting telling a Civil Servant to wind his neck in. The CS was a 3*, IIRC. The whole Directorate was aware, and waiting for the roof to fall in. Nothing happened, of course. Lord Tim was his 2* cover, and undoubtedly others further up the pipe.

His inefficiency and lack of charm knew no bounds, as many will be aware. Endless re-drafting of correspondence, one para at a time as he bored easily. My record was, IIRC, 5 re-drafts … the last one after he’d signed the letter. And of such are Air Chief Marshals made.

[Timelord]

I sincerely hope he does not survive. On his watch, in no particular order:

Beards

Star Trek new uniform

’Aviators’

Diversity targets

Non-use of RAF Regt when withdrawing from Kabul

Award of flying badges to non flying personnel .

Award of Squadron numbers to non combatant, non flying units.

Withdrawal of all HR / admin support to “warfighters”

100/0 sim / real target.

Not fussed about beards though.

[Lordflasheart]

...
Perhaps we needs two hair forces ? One for pretty parades and fly pasts (I love a good parade wiv Swords and Medals and Guard 'n' Band) and the other (with full 24 hr support including catering and lotsa munitions) for the nasty stuff ....

Which hobvs will never happen if them in charge keeps their fingers in their ears and their 'eds between their 'nees, ready to kiss their a****'s bye bye.

W
W
W
W
W

decode .... Woke Wig Won't Win Wars

So what's his real job then ?

LFH (no smiley)

...

[dctyke]

I never got over the duo he did with CASWO at Christmas a year or two past.

[BEagle]

It doesn't get any better:

The RAF's head of recruitment refused to follow an order to prioritise women and ethnic minority candidates over white men because she believed it was "unlawful", defence sources have claimed and a leaked email has revealed.

https://news.sky.com/story/raf-recruitment-chief-refused-unlawful-order-to-prioritise-women-and-ethnic-minorities-over-white-men-leaked-email-reveals-12678612

[J.A.F.O.]

When your name becomes the story, you don't have long left.

[The B Word]

Timelord - a fine list, apart from one.

Award of flying badges to non flying personnel

Care to unpick that one? If you are talking about the Space Operators Badge, then it is not a flying badge and is not listed with the flying badges in QR206. It also looks distinctly different next to a flying badge with its silver grey wings, a blue laurel wreath and the normal space ‘delta’/orbit insignia inside the wreath with the constellation of Aries over laid. It replaced the, horror of horrors, 2-winged USAF space badge that our folks had been wearing at Vandenburg, Buckley and Fylingdales. So, whilst I agree that Sir Wokey of Wokeston has a few things to lay as his feet, this is not one of them, I would offer?

If you’re talking about the RPAS flyers, then that was policy before he was appointed (and I disagree with the idea that they should not get flying badges for flying and operating an air vehicle on combat operations). Our RPAS crews are some of the most combat proven and relevant, seeing what the TB2 has achieved in Ukraine, amongst our aircrew cadre.

B Word :ok:

[Timelord]

I am prepared to be persuaded over RPAS crews but the Space Operators Badge is, to the casual observer, exactly like the single wing flying badges that have been awarded to non pilot aircrew since forever. It may not be listed in QR 206, but it pretends to be a flying badge.

By all means create a new badge for them if their specialisation deserves it (if it does, why not ATC or Air Battle etc etc?) but keep it different to the historic FLYING badge.

[snapper41]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/750x568/cdc0ddf2_bab9_4b58_8107_41120209f109_d7d6362ced49980a8f0bcd4 ac4c7e07d50e894e4.jpeg

[The B Word]

I am prepared to be persuaded over RPAS crews but the Space Operators Badge is, to the casual observer, exactly like the single wing flying badges that have been awarded to non pilot aircrew since forever. It may not be listed in QR 206, but it pretends to be a flying badge.

By all means create a new badge for them if their specialisation deserves it (if it does, why not ATC or Air Battle etc etc?) but keep it different to the historic FLYING badge.

You see the similarities and differences probably mean that it’s about right in my opinion. The Space Operators either operate space based sensors in a similar way to ISTAR operators on a crewed or un-crewed aircraft, or they also remotely ‘fly’ the satellites to avoid space weather (like solar flares), other satellites/space debris and also may manoeuvre to either eavesdrop on other nation’s satellites or even to deny their satellite from being used. Whilst there is no air up there, so no wings are needed and so it couldn’t be a flying badge, that is probably the only significant difference. Everything else, even ‘Combat Ready’ workups, are very similar. I personally think it’s good that the chosen badge tips a nod to the RAF’s operators in the air of old, but looks different enough to enable people to realise it’s something different.

They look different enough in my eyes :ok:

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/5396e5d9_773a_419e_b935_3a9a899fd7cb_ae7a8ee28b7087e6163e629 1b3cd18344bed104f.jpeg

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1825x1414/d92c5e26_3d35_4e08_810d_ba4cce976197_42149a59ad537c1f318ecde 9dad234565e03dd29.jpeg

[Baldeep Inminj]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/750x568/cdc0ddf2_bab9_4b58_8107_41120209f109_d7d6362ced49980a8f0bcd4 ac4c7e07d50e894e4.jpeg

Just perfect.

Wigston has destroyed the effectiveness and lethality of the RAF in favour of diversity and inclusion. Warfare is a darwinian environment and it cares only for talent, cunning, guile and skill. It does not care if you marched in the Pride parade.

Everyone should ask themselves, come the (impending?) war to save our civilization, who do you want defending your children? Do you want the best we have, or do you want Wiggys WOKE warriors, afraid to shoot someone in the face in case it offends them, but definitely in touch with their feelings?

Ben Wallace must sack this incompetent imbecile before he reduces the RAF to the point where there is nothing left to save, and the law breaking AVM Head of Personnel must go as well - she has forfeit her right to wear the uniform she has so utterly disgraced. Go back to filling teeth, because filling training courses is clearly too much of a challenge to your left-wing WOKE agenda.

The Group Captain who resigned (I know her name but will not publish here) should be promoted without delay and asked to fix this utter dogs turd of a situation.

Wigston - if you truly care for the RAF, go now - you are killing it with your warped ideas and total lack of ability. You have done everything you can to destroy the values and effectiveness of the RAF and you should be vilified for all time.

Ben Wallace - put warfighters in charge of your Teeth Arm - there is no room for Wiggys moronic ideas in a battlefield...,and the battlefield is coming.

[2Planks]

On the subject of sacking, Sir Peter Harding 'resigned' in Mar 94 after his affair. Sir Sandy Wilson 'retired early' in Aug 95 after buying too many carpets and curtains.

[langleybaston]

You have sat too long for any good you have been doing.

Depart, I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!

Oliver Cromwell.

[langleybaston]

On the subject of sacking, Sir Peter Harding 'resigned' in Mar 94 after his affair. Sir Sandy Wilson 'retired early' in Aug 95 after buying too many carpets and curtains.

Wilson was like Marmite. He worked wonders when AOC in C RAFG. From my viewpoint, hard as nails, efficient, fair.
Other colours are available..
And he had the decency to go when time was up.

Much more recently a VSO went because he offered his arse as a garden bike rack. A very small sin compared with the present disaster.

[Roland Pulfrew]

Much more recently a VSO went because he offered his arse as a garden bike rack. A very small sin compared with the present disaster.

Sadly, many of the barking mad ideas currently being implemented by the RAF, were penned by the naked gardener.

[langleybaston]

Yes, I can believe that: dropping one's trousers al fresco to a known enemy does indicate a certain lack of judgement.
Or deathwish.

[air pig]

Sadly, many of the barking mad ideas currently being implemented by the RAF, were penned by the naked gardener.

Not to defend Wigston, is some of this being pushed down from Radkin the CDS? To his detriment Wigston hasn't pushed back.

[Whenurhappy]

Wilson was like Marmite. He worked wonders when AOC in C RAFG. From my viewpoint, hard as nails, efficient, fair.
Other colours are available..
And he had the decency to go when time was up.

Much more recently a VSO went because he offered his arse as a garden bike rack. A very small sin compared with the present disaster.
That particular Air Marshal could have sorted out MFTS but didn't. Current ACAS 'Spoons' Edwards could have also sorted out MFTS, but didn't. There's a pattern here reflecting integrity and competency, isn't there?

[Whenurhappy]

Not to defend Wigston, is some of this being pushed down from Radkin the CDS? To his detriment Wigston hasn't pushed back.
These changes and directions were long underway before Adm Radakin became CDS.

[NutLoose]

Ministers will investigate whether the RAF has acted illegally in the past by prioritising females and ethnic minorities for positions over white males.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/raf-investigates-positive-discrimination-v3pgn7v7b

[dervish]

Not to defend Wigston, is some of this being pushed down from Radkin the CDS? To his detriment Wigston hasn't pushed back.

Fair point. Is this happening elsewhere in MoD? Is the RAF trying to catch up but gone a bit far? Maybe other parts have the likes of the Group Captain but who have managed to nip the excesses in the bud? If so it's not necessarily Radkin. Everybody has a boss. Just thinking out loud and glad I'm not involved.

[dctyke]

Wilson was like Marmite. He worked wonders when AOC in C RAFG. From my viewpoint, hard as nails, efficient, fair.
Other colours are available..
And he had the decency to go when time was up.

Much more recently a VSO went because he offered his arse as a garden bike rack. A very small sin compared with the present disaster.


Fair? i once watched that man dress down our squadron boss in front of the whole squadron on parade. The reason was that our WW2 hanger was in a terrible state compared to the facility he had seen at a newly re-built tornado unit the previous week. I cheered when he had to go!

[snapper41]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1386x1442/defa2541_5f91_400f_8ba0_f7b49da52e01_c9c55dbca7640a1e1e98235 000e6a6bdc4b47ecc.jpeg

Rod Liddle - nail, head. Sunday Times 21 August

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

These changes and directions were long underway before Adm Radakin became CDS.

I recall his predecessor hailing the advent of woke recruitment policies.............

NEO

[Speedywheels]

I have no time for this diversity ballcocks but there has to be more than just skewed recruitment policy for this plan to work. I can only relate to the non-commissioned route to becoming an effective member of the RAF. The first process was Basic Recruit Training consisting of 6 weeks at Swinderby and now is a 10 week training course at Halton. I don’t recall the bar being set very high for this element of training, it just weeded out the ones who didn’t really want to be there or the RAF didn’t want to invest in. There followed a Technical Training phase, which in my case was 18 months at Cosford. From an initial class of 18, I think 6 of us got through without being CT’d or back classed due to illness, injury or needing to resit an exam. I reckon about 10 of the original 18 eventually passed out of Cosford with their newly sown on J/T badges.
For the RAF diversity plan to work, has the training bar been lowered? Is it lowered across the board or is there special dispensation for some individuals? If so, this is an equally worrying trend as the overall capability of the RAF is being reduced to cater for its diversity goals.
I’ve been out of the game for a long time so I’m looking from afar but it concerns me greatly that the training I received at Cosford, which became the foundation of my career in aerospace, is somehow being compromised and diluted by this ill conceived strategy.

[cliver029]

It has now made page two of the Times, Sky have re-elevated it to page 1 on the Sky news app and to just add to the coverage Mr Gratton via the Saturday Telegraph letters column was shouting at a Naval minion (Rear Admiral I believe) who had the termity to venture an opinion on affairs.

[Diff Tail Shim]

You have sat too long for any good you have been doing.

Depart, I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!

Oliver Cromwell.
Oliver Cromwell is hardly some one I would want as my commander over the likes of a Leonard Cheshire. Rather have the latter commanding me thank you.

[langleybaston]

Fair? i once watched that man dress down our squadron boss in front of the whole squadron on parade. The reason was that our WW2 hanger was in a terrible state compared to the facility he had seen at a newly re-built tornado unit the previous week. I cheered when he had to go!

Obviously he handled the hanger incident badly, no need to do what he did.
One can only speak as one finds. Yes, he spared nobody ........... notably a Group Captain at a Heads of Branch meeting who had utterly failed to prepare a brief, despite adequate notice. "And if you can't do it, I suggest you send your deputy". Thus, briefings were subsequently meticulously prepared, and likely questions researched. Personally, I have a very soft spot for efficiency, especially in a fighting service.

But we digress. Marmite!

[NutLoose]

The end of the day, whether PM or CAS, the buck stops at the top of the food chain, everything on their watch is their responsibility, and he is that man.



..

[Trumpet trousers]

In answer to the OPs title question, yes, he will...simply because he's due to be replaced as CAS soon I think, and in the interim (should he feel humble enough to do so, [don't hold your breath..] ) he will simply issue some meaningless hoop statement about 'people being our greatest asset' etc.etc. Fall on his sword? Highly unlikely...just bide his time and disappear into retirement/highly paid defence job (take your pick) to let someone else deal with it.

[Red Line Entry]

Speedywheels,

To put your mind at ease a little, there has been no suggestion from the Airships that technical training lower its standards for minority groups. The standard is still the standard for all. (There has been considerable discussion over the past few years about what that standard should be, but that’s a different issue…)

[RotorsTurningRefuel]

My understanding is the the New DCom Ops has been brought forward by 6 months, I suspect that the new CAS will be announced before Nov 22, this was the original date for DCom Ops to be in place and CAS to replaced by Apr 24.

[Roland Pulfrew]

and CAS to replaced by Apr 24.

By Apr 24? A typo?? Lots of damage to be done between now and Apr 24!!

[RotorsTurningRefuel]

By Apr 24? A typo?? Lots of damage to be done between now and Apr 24!!


That was the original plan as I understood it

[Diff Tail Shim]

The end of the day, whether PM or CAS, the buck stops at the top of the food chain, everything on their watch is their reponsibility, and he is that man.
Nobody told Boris that until the knifes came out.

[Airbanda]

Is there any real suggestion that standards are being relaxed.

Or is it, like so many other areas in society, qualified people who are not white and male are losing out to a system that recruits in its own image?

[oldmansquipper]

+

Found negligent by Coroner; only escaping gross negligence, and hence corporate manslaughter charge, by dint of lying by omission and the law not permitting her to reopen when she found out.

(I wonder why the media didn't report that one?)


Didn’t fit into the meejahs own agendas. They have no interest in such trivia, Tuc, no diversity/inclusivity content.

[oldmansquipper]

Wilson was like Marmite. He worked wonders when AOC in C RAFG. From my viewpoint, hard as nails, efficient, fair.
Other colours are available..
And he had the decency to go when time was up.

Much more recently a VSO went because he offered his arse as a garden bike rack. A very small sin compared with the present disaster.


Re: Sir Sandy

totally agree your sentiments here. Great boss to ‘us erks’ in RAFG. Hard on his pilots but got results. Fair and always supportive to his troops.marmite indeed.

IMHO He Got stitched up by Rifkin, at the time, following a meejah ****storm over the ‘grace and favour’ redecorations. So perhaps Wallace will cave in to them and sort out the current clusterfcuk?

one can only hope..

[Melchett01]

Frankly I think this is the tip of the iceberg. I don’t think this is just about recruiting, but that it extends quite a way up to promotion and command boards at senior levels if rumours are to be believed. If that’s the case, I don’t see how any of the Air Force Board can come out of this looking good.

[NutLoose]

It does read like promotion is based upon wokeism and diversity and not military capability for senior staff, say the right things and you progress.

[minigundiplomat]

He shouldn’t be allowed to fade away. He should be dismissed publicly for his incompetence in command.

[Diff Tail Shim]

It does read like promotion is based upon wokeism and diversity and not military capability for senior staff, say the right things and you progress.
PM decides on all air rank promotions. As Skywalker said to us as he shut the Jags down early.

[MAINJAFAD]

Frankly I think this is the tip of the iceberg. I don’t think this is just about recruiting, but that it extends quite a way up to promotion and command boards at senior levels if rumours are to be believed. If that’s the case, I don’t see how any of the Air Force Board can come out of this looking good.

Glad to see that somebody paid attention in General Service Knowledge!!! It isn't just Wigston that is driving this!!

[NutLoose]

PM decides on all air rank promotions. As Skywalker said to us as he shut the Jags down early.

So hiring yes men instead of best men……. And women.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Speedywheels,

To put your mind at ease a little, there has been no suggestion from the Airships that technical training lower its standards for minority groups. The standard is still the standard for all. (There has been considerable discussion over the past few years about what that standard should be, but that’s a different issue…)

The problem is when you have quota’s what do you think happens when to make this years quota and it is nearing year end, the next X number of the right demographic HAVE to pass.

I have personally witnessed this scenario, The sad part is it doesn’t just diminish the institution, it diminishes minority members who got where they are because they worked hard, had their Shyte together, and were respected and valued ship mates.

[Chugalug2]

Re: Sir Sandy

totally agree your sentiments here. Great boss to ‘us erks’ in RAFG. Hard on his pilots but got results. Fair and always supportive to his troops.marmite indeed.

IMHO He Got stitched up by Rifkin, at the time, following a meejah ****storm over the ‘grace and favour’ redecorations. So perhaps Wallace will cave in to them and sort out the current clusterfcuk?

one can only hope..

I would agree that Sir Sandy Wilson was stitched up but not that it was by SoS Malcolm Rifkind, who was also misled by the RAF High Command over the Mull of Kintyre pilots. You have to ask yourself who benefitted from him not getting the top job? Hardly Sir Malcolm!

As to the media, where would they get detailed information about the costs of curtains, approved or otherwise, if they weren't so briefed? Who would have briefed them? Sir Malcolm?

[oldmansquipper]

I would agree that Sir Sandy Wilson was stitched up but not that it was by SoS Malcolm Rifkind, who was also misled by the RAF High Command over the Mull of Kintyre pilots. You have to ask yourself who benefitted from him not getting the top job? Hardly Sir Malcolm!

As to the media, where would they get detailed information about the costs of curtains, approved or otherwise, if they weren't so briefed? Who would have briefed them? Sir Malcolm?

good point, chug.

[Fortissimo]

I would agree that Sir Sandy Wilson was stitched up but not that it was by SoS Malcolm Rifkind, who was also misled by the RAF High Command over the Mull of Kintyre pilots. You have to ask yourself who benefitted from him not getting the top job? Hardly Sir Malcolm!

As to the media, where would they get detailed information about the costs of curtains, approved or otherwise, if they weren't so briefed? Who would have briefed them? Sir Malcolm?

Embroidered rather than stitched up? A friend told me he kept duplicate files at home on all the embellishments at Rheindahlen because he was concerned the office set might vanish. Best not to enquire about Pantechnicons allegedly transporting the contents of the Berlin residence back to an unknown private destination in the UK.

At the time of carpetgate and the £250K refurbishment, Sir Malcolm was in a different command and would have had no visibility. Whatever you think of his subsequent sins, I don’t believe he was in any way connected.

There is a fine line between feathering one’s nest and corruption.

[tucumseh]

Embroidered rather than stitched up? A friend told me he kept duplicate files at home on all the embellishments at Rheindahlen because he was concerned the office set might vanish. Best not to enquire about Pantechnicons allegedly transporting the contents of the Berlin residence back to an unknown private destination in the UK.

At the time of carpetgate and the £250K refurbishment, Sir Malcolm was in a different command and would have had no visibility. Whatever you think of his subsequent sins, I don’t believe he was in any way connected.

There is a fine line between feathering one’s nest and corruption.


While Wilson left the RAF a short while after Rifkind left Defence, the latter was Secretary of State when the decision was made six months earlier. (Feb 1995). Notably, a couple of months later, in April 1995, Rifkind was lied to by senior officers over the Mull of Kintyre affair; and to his great credit later breached convention by speaking up about it alongside John Major. I wonder if the same CAS briefed him about Wilson?

[Ninthace]

The problem is when you have quota’s what do you think happens when to make this years quota and it is nearing year end, the next X number of the right demographic HAVE to pass.

I have personally witnessed this scenario, The sad part is it doesn’t just diminish the institution, it diminishes minority members who got where they are because they worked hard, had their Shyte together, and were respected and valued ship mates.
It never happened in the time I ran training squadrons and would not have. Either the trainees achieve the standard or they are chopped. Ethnicity and gender were not even considered by the review board. There was one occasion when we had an unusually high failure rate and there was an enquiry to find out why, but nobody suggested pushing them through.

[possel]

I've read through this thread and just have to say that I am glad I left the RAF when I did, now almost 30 years ago. However, this one brought back memories:
Because they are always one step ahead of the 5hit storm. Do enough to get the required ticks in the box for promotion and move on. Could say the same for a large number of people across many ranks!
There were far too many people who had this attitude - do the minimum to look good so long as it isn't apparent until you have moved on. They were simply selfish and just did not have the "best interests of the service" in their mind at all, whether in the case of cost, airworthiness, flight safety, operational effectiveness or even just improved morale. They were the people who would only consider themselves, not the RAF as a whole, and they would not do something "because the book doesn't say I can do it" whereas, on the contrary, others had the view that "the book doesn't say I can't do it" and were willing to make a rational decision based on their knowledge and experience.

The trouble is that such people did have a better career, they did reach higher ranks and now they do have a massive pension. I find it sad that the situation has apparently not improved and could perceivably be worse!

[oldmansquipper]

I've read through this thread and just have to say that I am glad I left the RAF when I did, now almost 30 years ago. However, this one brought back memories:

There were far too many people who had this attitude - do the minimum to look good so long as it isn't apparent until you have moved on. They were simply selfish and just did not have the "best interests of the service" in their mind at all, whether in the case of cost, airworthiness, flight safety, operational effectiveness or even just improved morale. They were the people who would only consider themselves, not the RAF as a whole, and they would not do something "because the book doesn't say I can do it" whereas, on the contrary, others had the view that "the book doesn't say I can't do it" and were willing to make a rational decision based on their knowledge and experience.

The trouble is that such people did have a better career, they did reach higher ranks and now they do have a massive pension. I find it sad that the situation has apparently not improved and could perceivably be worse!

In GW1 I was in the HQSTC EA for things survival equipment. On several occasions we had to make difficult decisions on the run so the front line effectiveness was not compromised. (Re supply of SF by airdrop when all the RAF existing stock of equipment had been exhausted)

One example. I recall authorising use of out of date parachute canopies with air dropped containers and reverse engineering of container cradles last used in Lincoln’s and shacks… at a follow up meeting with MoD(PE) I was told in no uncertain terms that my actions were not permitted because the the combinations would have to be subjected to a full test program before clearance. Taking the rap, I asked if the dozen or so live drops we had already done could be taken into account and did the committee want me to try and get the containers back from behind the lines…

it all went quiet. (My logic was that I could see nowhere where it said I couldn’t do what I did)

[Hueymeister]

Was listening to Robin Olds' autobiography, this piqued my interest, Wiggy the woke...take note:

'....Don't try to bull**** the troops, but make sure they know the buck stops with you, that you'll shoulder the blame when things go wrong. Correct without revenge or anger. Recognize accomplishment. Reward accordingly. Foster spirit through self-pride, not slogans, and never at the expense of another unit. It won't take long, but only your genuine interest and concern, plus follow-up on your promises, will earn you respect. Out of that you gain loyalty and obedience. Your outfit will be a standout. But for God's sake, don't ever try to be popular! That weakens your position, makes you vulnerable. Don't have favorites. That breeds resentment. Respect the talents of your people. Have the courage to delegate responsibility and give the authority to go with it. Again, make clear to your troops you are the one who'll take the heat.”
― Robin Olds

[FantomZorbin]

Then you have a leader(?) who states in a presentation "I'll try to be honest with you", i.e. "I might be lying". Several of the audience left at that point.

[57mm]

Maybe after all this we will get our first female CAS. I can think of at least one candidate.....

[Wrathmonk]

Maybe after all this we will get our first female CAS. I can think of at least one candidate.....

Which, if I’m thinking on the same lines, would result in two other ‘firsts’ as well.

[Fortissimo]

Which, if I’m thinking on the same lines, would result in two other ‘firsts’ as well.

What, first non-aviator and first dentist??! 🤣🤣

[Toadstool]

Which, if I’m thinking on the same lines, would result in two other ‘firsts’ as well.

She’ll need to get promotion but I’m not betting against that. Excellent career so far.

[MPN11]

A ‘bridge too far’, I would have thought. She may be competent, and a ‘people person’, but surely CAS should foremost be a warfighter with relevant experience in that field?

[Wrathmonk]

She’ll need to get promotion but I’m not betting against that. Excellent career so far.

Granted. But Wiggy The Woke spent less than 11 months as a 3*….

In the interim, whilst Gerry M would seem the popular choice, my vote would be for Sammy Sampson - looking at what is available ‘open source’ he does not appear to have ever been a core member of the Air Force Board and is therefore not tainted by recent policy decisions etc.

[WB627]

In GW1 I was in the HQSTC EA for things survival equipment. On several occasions we had to make difficult decisions on the run so the front line effectiveness was not compromised. (Re supply of SF by airdrop when all the RAF existing stock of equipment had been exhausted)

One example. I recall authorising use of out of date parachute canopies with air dropped containers and reverse engineering of container cradles last used in Lincoln’s and shacks… at a follow up meeting with MoD(PE) I was told in no uncertain terms that my actions were not permitted because the the combinations would have to be subjected to a full test program before clearance. Taking the rap, I asked if the dozen or so live drops we had already done could be taken into account and did the committee want me to try and get the containers back from behind the lines…

it all went quiet. (My logic was that I could see nowhere where it said I couldn’t do what I did)

Nothing new under the sun!

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1471x1874/fuketvmuaaahc68_d2f96d6775883a9abafd9decd6a5aeb2679a2c0f.jpg

[Wrathmonk]

What, first non-aviator and first dentist??! 🤣🤣
Nice try....

A ‘bridge too far’, I would have thought. She may be competent, and a ‘people person’, but surely CAS should foremost be a warfighter with relevant experience in that field?

Harsh banter....

[NutLoose]

What, first non-aviator and first dentist??! 🤣🤣

She might be able to stop the rot and decay that is setting in..



:rolleyes:

[WB627]

She might be able to stop the rot and decay that is setting in..

:rolleyes:

Nutty that post needs pulling :}

[VintageEngineer]

In GW1 I was in the HQSTC EA for things survival equipment. On several occasions we had to make difficult decisions on the run so the front line effectiveness was not compromised. . . .. (My logic was that I could see nowhere where it said I couldn’t do what I did)
Alas, I came across the same attitudes when I dealt with GW2 and it’s aftermath. Attitudes die hard, it seems.

[Jobza Guddun]

She might be able to stop the rot and decay that is setting in..



:rolleyes:
Nah, she'll just be filling in until a proper CAS comes along....

[Roland Pulfrew]

She might be able to stop the rot and decay that is setting in..



:rolleyes:

Surely this particular AVM should resign for “bringing the Air Force into disrepute”?

[oldmansquipper]

https://news.sky.com/story/rafs-three-simultaneous-crises-put-air-chief-marshal-sir-mike-wigston-under-pressure-12680964

for what it’s worth.

I can hear the hatches being battened down and the cans of non specific coloured paint being opened…..

god (whichever one you believe in) save us!

[oldmansquipper]

Nothing new under the sun!

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1471x1874/fuketvmuaaahc68_d2f96d6775883a9abafd9decd6a5aeb2679a2c0f.jpg

interesting. I do believe my Wg Cdr (who backed me 100%) at the time was also called ‘Arm 1’ and was a bloody good egg (for a plumber) to boot!

[Biggus]

I don't know if this has been mentioned in any of the previous 99 posts, however...

A total of 13% of the UK population is made up of ethnic minorities. The RAF, under Wigston, has a recruitment target of 20% ethnic minorities. First of all this is apparently a more ambitious target than that of either the Army or RN. So presumably this isn't a tri-service policy, having come down from CDS or the politicians, but an RAF (under Wigston) self generated figure. Secondly, a target of 20% vs 13% of the population indicates a policy of deliberate over representation, by around 50%, dare one say a policy of "positive discrimination"?

[SLXOwft]

As Major (rtd) Heappey is a Truss supporter, I assume he may well still be in post come 6 September, so his support may be significant regarding CAS going early other than by his own volition.

It appears to me that our current generation of leaders, political, military, and business appear, in very large part, to have replaced a sense of honour and duty with an unshakeable belief in their own abilities, point of view, and irreplaceability, the former Group Captain R&S being herself an honourable exception. I admit I may be looking through a rose-tinted visor when thinking in earlier generations we would have seen resignations for the good of the service on the Caesar's wife principle.

I lack the experience and don't know enough facts to pass judgement on the competence and actions of the VSOs involved.

P.S. Good to see the Wing Commander and Air Ministry official weren't distracted from doing their jobs by events across the Channel on that day.:E

[muppetofthenorth]

I don't know if this has been mentioned in any of the previous 99 posts, however...

A total of 13% of the UK population is made up of ethnic minorities. The RAF, under Wigston, has a recruitment target of 20% ethnic minorities. First of all this is apparently a more ambitious target than that of either the Army or RN. So presumably this isn't a tri-service policy, having come down from CDS or the politicians, but an RAF (under Wigston) self generated figure. Secondly, a target of 20% vs 13% of the population indicates a policy of deliberate over representation, by around 50%, dare one say a policy of "positive discrimination"?

The under 30 (or possibly under 35, I can't quite remember which one it was I read) population of the UK is 20+% BAME. The aim isn't entirely ridiculous in that context.

​​​​

[MPN11]

... and, thirdly [as noted previously] ... how many want to join anyway?

[Biggus]

muppetofhenorth - Thanks for the clarification, I hadn't appreciated that distinction.

However, as MPN11 points out, if ethnic minorities don't want to join the RAF (military in general) for whatever reason, be it historic, cultural, financial, then it doesn't matter what your target is, and the higher you set it the more you fail by. However, I expect that half the battle is a PR one to show that the RAF is trying.

[MPN11]

When I first met the OH, she was a recruiter. More relevantly, Schools Liaison, involving speaking to the little dears to try to sell the RAF.

Case 1. Predominantly ethnic London school. Total apathy.

Case 2. Her alma mater, a Central London posh girls School. Total apathy, as such a career was deemed too lowly?

You can lead a horse to water ...

[DuckDodgers]

As Major (rtd) Heappey is a Truss supporter, I assume he may well still be in post come 6 September, so his support may be significant regarding CAS going early other than by his own volition.

It appears to me that our current generation of leaders, political, military, and business appear, in very large part, to have replaced a sense of honour and duty with an unshakeable belief in their own abilities, point of view, and irreplaceability, the former Group Captain R&S being herself an honourable exception. I admit I may be looking through a rose-tinted visor when thinking in earlier generations we would have seen resignations for the good of the service on the Caesar's wife principle.

I lack the experience and don't know enough facts to pass judgement on the competence and actions of the VSOs involved.

P.S. Good to see the Wing Commander and Air Ministry official weren't distracted from doing their jobs by events across the Channel on that day.:E

Nail, head, hit. Industry is full of people who deliver very little but float from company to company before **** catches up with them.

[alfred_the_great]

muppetofhenorth - Thanks for the clarification, I hadn't appreciated that distinction.

However, as MPN11 points out, if ethnic minorities don't want to join the RAF (military in general) for whatever reason, be it historic, cultural, financial, then it doesn't matter what your target is, and the higher you set it the more you fail by. However, I expect that half the battle is a PR one to show that the RAF is trying.

perhaps they don’t want to join because they see low level hostility towards them, saying that efforts to encourage them to join are merely woke, and their presence will stop the RAF from being able to win?

[steamchicken]

When I first met the OH, she was a recruiter. More relevantly, Schools Liaison, involving speaking to the little dears to try to sell the RAF.

Case 1. Predominantly ethnic London school. Total apathy.

Case 2. Her alma mater, a Central London posh girls School. Total apathy, as such a career was deemed too lowly?

You can lead a horse to water ...

...and to be fair, leading it to the water is a good start, and considerably more likely to get water into the horse than standing around the stables moaning about horses these days?

[oldmansquipper]

Ok. This may be from another thread here, and I admit to a little confirmation bias….but it’s still an interesting read. Just don’t tell the meejah.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x995/b5432bd2_b0b5_49d4_bc5f_8cc285318a08_22e4de4d3da8d0c13361f99 7a396b195bb511978.jpeg

[RAFEngO74to09]

NEW: The head of the RAF - @ChiefofAirStaff (https://twitter.com/ChiefofAirStaff) - says he will address “as a priority” a series of “legitimate questions” raised in the media over diversity targets in the @RoyalAirForce (https://twitter.com/RoyalAirForce) , allegations of sexual harassment & bullying in the @rafredarrows (https://twitter.com/rafredarrows) & concerns about flying training

Deborah Haynes on Twitter: "NEW: The head of the RAF -@ChiefofAirStaff - says he will address “as a priority” a series of “legitimate questions” raised in the media over diversity targets in the @RoyalAirForce, allegations of sexual harassment & bullying in the @rafredarrows & concerns about flying training https://t.co/8kIjPFUdQe" / Twitter

[Diff Tail Shim]

Ok. This may be from another thread here, and I admit to a little confirmation bias….but it’s still an interesting read. Just don’t tell the meejah.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x995/b5432bd2_b0b5_49d4_bc5f_8cc285318a08_22e4de4d3da8d0c13361f99 7a396b195bb511978.jpeg
What newspaper was that from? No British newspaper can be trusted to tell the truth. ONS figures are the only true ones. Stuff what the Sir Squire from the Shire says. Or a survey.

[Hueymeister]

Ok. This may be from another thread here, and I admit to a little confirmation bias….but it’s still an interesting read. Just don’t tell the meejah.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x995/b5432bd2_b0b5_49d4_bc5f_8cc285318a08_22e4de4d3da8d0c13361f99 7a396b195bb511978.jpeg
Where'd it go?

[Speedywheels]

What newspaper was that from? .

Fail on Sunday?

[muppetofthenorth]

What newspaper was that from? No British newspaper can be trusted to tell the truth. ONS figures are the only true ones. Stuff what the Sir Squire from the Shire says. Or a survey.
It's quoting a YouGov survey. No point having a go at a newspaper.

[CAEBr]

Wigston is taking the salute tonight (in whatever form the locals choose to salute him) at the Edinburgh Military Tattoo, luckily the Reds are elsewhere so a different flypast.

[NutLoose]

Wigston is taking the salute tonight (in whatever form the locals choose to salute him) at the Edinburgh Military Tattoo, luckily the Reds are elsewhere so a different flypast.

Probably going to announce new quotas for Irish, Welsh and Scots in the forces ;)

[air pig]

It's quoting a YouGov survey. No point having a go at a newspaper.

You Gov is a self-selecting organisation that you have to sign up to, to participate in their surveys.

[Diff Tail Shim]

It's quoting a YouGov survey. No point having a go at a newspaper.
A survey site that is not the ONS. Anything the Fail prints is at best dubious.

[RAFEngO74to09]

(3) Ministry of Defence Press Office on Twitter: "(1/3) The Chief of the Air Staff (CAS) has invited Defence ministers to the next scheduled Air Force Board meeting to discuss personnel policy. Air Chief Marshal Sir Mike Wigston will use the planned meeting on 7th September to discuss the RAF’s approach." / Twitter

(3) Tobias Ellwood MP on Twitter: "RAF BOARD MEETING 7th Sept I encourage the Defence Secretary to update the House of Commons, in person, after this meeting." / Twitter

[mahogany bob]

YES MEN PROMOTED !!

BBB Bull**** Baffles Brains

[Timelord]

Hard to see how this can all be resolved. If you are currently serving and are focused on the delivery of hard air power you will be turned off by all the talk of quotas and “‘wokery”. If, on the other hand, you are focused on delivering diversity and inclusivity you will be turned off by the antedeluvian behaviour reported in the Red Arrows.

I fear it needs a new CAS and a new start where the only thing that matters is preparing to fight the Russians and the Chinese. That is the job of the UK armed forces at the moment. Everything else is fluff.

[GeeRam]

The mere fact they refer to it a a RAF Board Meeting tells you all you need to know that they are treating the RAF as some sort of corporate entity.

Someone has got to look at whats happening in Ukraine and wake up and smell the coffee, and stop trying to turn all the Armed Services into some trendy corporate plaything.

[Diff Tail Shim]

Hard to see how this can all be resolved. If you are currently serving and are focused on the delivery of hard air power you will be turned off by all the talk of quotas and “‘wokery”. If, on the other hand, you are focused on delivering diversity and inclusivity you will be turned off by the antedeluvian behaviour reported in the Red Arrows.

I fear it needs a new CAS and a new start where the only thing that matters is preparing to fight the Russians and the Chinese. That is the job of the UK armed forces at the moment. Everything else is fluff.
Defence of the United Kingdom and it's interests. The former is most important. Fighting countries that are way bigger and stronger than us is a sign of lunacy without a clear and present danger to the territory of these shores.

[MAINJAFAD]

The mere fact they refer to it a a RAF Board Meeting tells you all you need to know that they are treating the RAF as some sort of corporate entity.

Someone has got to look at whats happening in Ukraine and wake up and smell the coffee, and stop trying to turn all the Armed Services into some trendy corporate plaything.

Yes the Air Force Board, been in existence since well before I joined the RAF nearly 40 years ago!!! In fact, formed 2 years before I was born!!! You really didn't pay attention to how the RAF is actually run during your service career did you??? It was the Air Council / Air Force Council before that from 1917 onwards. The Army and Navy have Boards as well!!!

[Biggus]

Yes the Air Force Board, been in existence since well before I joined the RAF nearly 40 years ago!!! In fact, formed 2 years before I was born!!! You really didn't pay attention to how the RAF is actually run during your service career did you??? It was the Air Council / Air Force Council before that from 1917 onwards. The Army and Navy have Boards as well!!!

MAINJAFAD - You are of course correct in what you say. However, I happen to think GeeRam also has a valid point about the RAF being turned into a corporate identity - it's just that he didn't pick a good example. Towards my the end of my time in the RAF things seemed to change (yes, I know, change is inevitable and shouldn't be resisted just for it's own sake) towards a more commercial type organization, embracing all the 'on trend' aspects of the commercial world. Even the language changed, and we were suddenly overrun with 'stakeholders' and 'customers'. Quite often it was the more senior officers who were the worst, no doubt vying to prove they were on the corporate bandwagon. I attended a few meeting towards the end that were full of corporate bingo bull**** terms, and saw the odd junior officer/NCO looking at each other as if to say "what the f...". I believe one OC Ops referred to the resident Squadrons on their station as "customers". We started referring to armed conflict as the "kinetic phase" of an operation, as if that somehow sanitizes or downplays the reality of being an armed service. The RAF became just another "career option" out of many available, where it was possible to get very near the top without any exposure to the reality of being in an "armed service".

Anyway, feel free to disagree. I probably haven't explained it very well, trying to describe a change in culture, and one I left years ago. As I said earlier, change is inevitable, and I saw lots in my fairly lengthy RAF career, I just didn't view the drive towards commercial attitudes and procedures as a positive one for a fighting force that is intended to send people in harms way when required.

I believe back in the days of RAFG, on arrival new personnel were driven to the border and shown the "iron curtain", watch towers, guards, barbed wire, etc - with the simple message "that's why you're here". While such obvious symbols aren't available today, in a world of ever changing circumstances and shadowy wars against terrorism, I personally don't have much faith that many of the VSOs running today's RAF still "know why they're there" - in my opinion they're too busy padding out their CVs, creating their LinkedIn accounts and making sure they avoid any fallout from bad news.... no doubt other on here disagree (and will do so).

[tucumseh]

Biggus - I'm sure you know this but you've just perfectly paraphrased the Nimrod Review. Another of its recommendations that MoD ignored.

Mainjafad - Correct about Boards, and replacing 'Board Submissions' (seeking approval FROM THE USER'S VIEWPOINT to acquire capability) was replaced with 'Business Cases', at a stroke utterly confusing staff because the wrong people then took it upon themselves to sign them. A bloody industry was born, which contributes absolutely nothing.

[RetiredBA/BY]

What, first non-aviator and first dentist??! 🤣🤣
…..And would the British Dental association or General Dental Council even think of having a pilot without dental training in charge of their organisations. I think not.

[langleybaston]

I believe back in the days of RAFG, on arrival new personnel were driven to the border and shown the "iron curtain", watch towers, guards, barbed wire, etc - with the simple message "that's why you're here".

On a lighter note, for our three tours we were told the whereabouts of the nearest PX, Karstadt and a store where Abwicklungscheine were accepted!

[oldmansquipper]

…..And would the British Dental association or General Dental Council even think of having a pilot without dental training in charge of their organisations. I think not.

And Why not, BA?

The ‘corporate’ (Sorry ‘Air Force’ is the wrong phrase these days) line is exactly the same today as it was back in the 80s when MoDUKAiR started down the slippery slope of compromising safety to achieve cost savings. The mantra back then was you don’t have to be knowledgeable to ‘run’ an authority. Just need to be a Manager. In my own little world, A Wg Cdr Engineer (with at least some knowledge of rubber and leatherware) was replaced by a Supplier (very nice chap) just before the dept became an ‘Integrated Project Team’ and moved up to WYTON. At least he had the knowledgeable but lower level staff remaining IMHO The Thin end of the wedge. The IPT became more and more concerned with cost saving and economising . Technical knowledge and expertise were driven down to lower levels of ‘management’ and civilian staff, with little or no TK&E were brought in at that level. (Cos they were cheap I expect) Then…higher level CSs rapidly replaced the mid and even senior engineering posts. Again whilst the chaps were technical ‘managers’ they were lacking in specialist knowledge. Thus, the MoD lost all its ‘corporate’ knowledge within a very short time. Sadly, it took some tragic incidents to recently highlight the loss…

So perhaps you could soon get your teeth pulled by a trainee pilot ‘filling’ in time during his MFT holding time, whilst waiting for a course… (I was tempted to put ‘gapping’ …)

IGMC

[NutLoose]

I suspect that was the reason why the JT rank went, cost savings, why have a direct entry JT when you could get the same person and get the first couple of years out of him for a lower wage.

[RS15]

…..And would the British Dental association or General Dental Council even think of having a pilot without dental training in charge of their organisations. I think not.
Nice sentiment BA but unfortunately not entirely correct....BDA - yep. GDC however hasn't had a dentist 'in charge' for many years and hasn't got a particularly spectacular reputation amongst its registrants :ugh:

[Whenurhappy]

…..And would the British Dental association or General Dental Council even think of having a pilot without dental training in charge of their organisations. I think not.
I think you would be surprised by the number of retired senior officers who are the CEs of professional and trade bodies, as well of bursars (COOs) of universities and Oxbridge collages.

[langleybaston]

One is surprised that one was thought to be surprised.

The last few years of a VSO career are seemingly not spent doing one's job, correcting the errors of predecessors, contemplating golf and a yacht on a super pension, but on feathering the nest.
There used to be a moratorium* on visiting WP countries for several years after retirement if one had held PV or higher. A moratorium on taking a job for a year or two for one stars and above would cool their courage.
*["Moratorium in not quite the word I seek but is near enough].

[Chugalug2]

B I, I'm (or rather was) in the plank brigade but I could follow your drift and share your despair. The RAF's purpose is war, when it isn't at war it should be preparing for war. The support it gets from industry and commerce should enable it in that purpose. The leadership of the RAF should be directed principally at that purpose, all other considerations are secondary. Thus training and equipment must be of the highest calibre to ensure that the RAF can prevail in war. If it is not then we are simply being prepared for defeat by a rival air force. There seems little point in that so we need to employ every tool available, and I completely endorse your call for a return to traditional military airmanship in all its guises. It is more vital than ever, given the problems that abound in military airworthiness now (cue the apologists).

[NutLoose]

So you’re in the trenches and the invading hordes come charging over the hill, what do you do, shoot xyz of white men then stop shooting in the hope you will be able to kill xyz amount of coloured people and women to ensure you are meeting your diversity quotas and cannot be seen to be racist. I suppose with a full mag you can break down the numbers of rounds required to meet ones quota.

;)

[Roland Pulfrew]

What happened to BI's post? Did BI delete it, or did the corporate protection filter kick in? I recognise everything that Baldeep wrote.

[Chugalug2]

What happened to BI's post? Did BI delete it, or did the corporate protection filter kick in? I recognise everything that Baldeep wrote.
I should have quoted him, as I now do for you. So much to learn, so little time....

[langleybaston]

I should have quoted him, as I now do for you. So much to learn, so little time....

Absurd that BI's excellent post has disappeared ................ airbrush anyone?

[alfred_the_great]

Was it the chutney post about MFTS and failing to change his practice?

[Chugalug2]

Was it the chutney post about MFTS and failing to change his practice?
Yes, though I wouldn't presume to paraphrase BI's post. Suffice it to say Roland probably has it right, that critical references to a contracting company offended PPRuNe policy. So be it, their pram, their toys. In any case the point of what BI had to say was that contracting out such a core activity as the flight training of RAF aircrew, changes the traditional military aspects (he instanced military airmanship) of instruction. The common factor with the other major concern affecting the future conduct of UK Air Power, that of airworthiness, is of course the RAF leadership. The combination of maintaining the cover up of past VSO sabotage of UK Military Air Safety, and the feathering of nests involved in contracting out core activities, does not bode well for our future struggles for air superiority. The VSOs involved will no doubt be long gone, but their malevolent bequests will haunt the RAF for decades.

The cover up needs to stop and be owned up to. Reform of Air Regulation and Accident Investigation must follow, independent of the MOD and of each other. Then attention needs to focus on the RAF CoC outside of the station gates, because the present system clearly doesn't work for maintaining UK Air Power.

[langleybaston]

Yes, though I wouldn't presume to paraphrase BI's post. Suffice it to say Roland probably has it right, that critical references to a contracting company offended PPRuNe policy. So be it, their pram, their toys. In any case the point of what BI had to say was that contracting out such a core activity as the flight training of RAF aircrew, changes the traditional military aspects (he instanced military airmanship) of instruction. The common factor with the other major concern affecting the future conduct of UK Air Power, that of airworthiness, is of course the RAF leadership. The combination of maintaining the cover up of past VSO sabotage of UK Military Air Safety, and the feathering of nests involved in contracting out core activities, does not bode well for our future struggles for air superiority. The VSOs involved will no doubt be long gone, but their malevolent bequests will haunt the RAF for decades.

The cover up needs to stop and be owned up to. Reform of Air Regulation and Accident Investigation must follow, independent of the MOD and of each other. Then attention needs to focus on the RAF CoC outside of the station gates, because the present system clearly doesn't work for maintaining UK Air Power.

In the interests of retention I have quoted the above good precis without presuming to comment further.

[alfred_the_great]

Has there been a noticeable and sustained increase in air safety failures (airprox etc) between MFTS trained personnel? Has there been a significant disparity in “military airmanship” between MFTS and non-MFTS trained personnel? Have MFTS trained personnel moved into the civilian space and their inability to demonstrate airmanship been noted?

or is it perhaps “not invented here” syndrome?

and noting your comment on MAA and DSA/DAIB, yet again I’d point out the CAA and AAIB do not meet your requirements either.

[xenolith]

What happened to BI's post? Did BI delete it, or did the corporate protection filter kick in? I recognise everything that Baldeep wrote.I would like to think that B I deleted his own post because, no matter how strongly he felt about the underlying subject of his diatribe, he should not have identified and maligned a good man who was doing what was required of him.

[Chugalug2]

atg, your views on Air Safety and mine are at variance, I hope you would agree. The only comment I would venture is that MFTS can hardly be called a success. The endless holding awaiting courses, the loss of continuity in doing so, further problems at the OCUs, all add up to a worrying end result for the front line squadrons. Does that also mean a disparity in military airmanship between MFTS and non MFTS trainees? BI instanced a particular difference but other than that how would you measure any such disparity? Like most Air Safety problems such data only reveals itself in retrospect. Meteor asymmetric exercises come to mind, or more recently Hawk EFATO practice perhaps. Evolution rather than revolution works best in aviation. Paint the goal posts by all means, keep tearing them down and setting them up elsewhere tends to lead to unforeseen consequences, or events dear boy, events.

Civil and Military Aviation are different. Much of course is common ground but one is about routine daily safe economic operation, the other about being prepared for anything but routine when at war, with realistic training scenarios for that in peacetime. That to my mind requires even more emphasis on Air Safety, to safeguard personnel and equipment for their ultimate purpose, war. What you learn from your instructors, what you learn for yourself, arms you for that. It is called airmanship, though now no doubt it is high on a wish list for urgent renaming. Being taught civilian procedures for a military career is at variance with that. Of course, it may well be that civilian instructors may well be ex-military and pass on their bon mots as if they still served. I would hope so.

I don't think that is 'not invented here'. Here is a different place to there, that's all.

Yes, you have indeed pointed out the existing limitations of the CAA and AAIB set-up. As I have pointed out, the CAA did not set out to subvert its own regulations AFAIK. The military air regulator (then the MOD) did. Whatever civilian practice is; operator, regulator, and investigator should be independent and separate from each other. 1987 shows us what happens when they are not.


Xeno, you may well be right. The problem is systemic and not down to any individual. With respect, I think that was BI's point, a civilian was imposing civilian practice on a military training system. BI felt strongly that it was inappropriate. I suspect he is right.

[oldmansquipper]

Whitewash in the MoD? Surely not…

https://news.sky.com/story/meeting-on-raf-diversity-claims-dismissed-as-whitewash-12692359

[Wrathmonk]

Unless I’ve misread it, it seems Wiggy is inferring that the aforementioned go capt quit because the proposed policy was challenged and NOT implemented rather than quit because she REFUSED to implement it???

Air Chief Marshal Wigston said: "Earlier this year we explored a recruiting practice to improve the diversity of our workforce - this policy was challenged and never implemented, but I regret that challenge led to our Head of Recruiting and Selection stepping down from her role.

[Chugalug2]

The Star Chamber marking its own homework as usual. The inquiry shouldn't be about the Group Captain, it should be about the illegal order that she rightly refused to obey. Who gave her the order and who instigated it? Someone should fall on their sword, and it certainly isn't the Gp Capt. Is that the best the CAS can do, "Challenged and never implemented"? It wasn't implemented because it was challenged, because it was illegal! What a weasel statement.

[cynicalint]

Unless I’ve misread it, it seems Wiggy is inferring that the aforementioned go capt quit because the proposed policy was challenged and NOT implemented rather than quit because she REFUSED to implement it???
Exactly what he meant! a completely ambiguous statement to deflect from the honourable actions of the Gp Cpt.
To quote Lewis Carroll:
“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that's all.”
So we have a woke humpty dumpty in charge. And he headed for a great fall from which no-one could save him.

[tucumseh]

and noting your comment on MAA and DSA/DAIB, yet again I’d point out the CAA and AAIB do not meet your requirements either.

And none of them meet their OWN requirements.

But only in the case of MoD has a court ruled that the Defence Safety Authority / Military Aviation Authority is not independent of MoD. Has there been an official response to that?

[dervish]

. But only in the case of MoD has a court ruled that the Defence Safety Authority / Military Aviation Authority is not independent of MoD.

Chug. I imagine you are pleased with this ruling. Small steps. How it came about is a fascinating and immensely sad read. Well done.

[The B Word]

There is, of course, a link to this Air Safety sideline and the subject of this thread. I do believe that the current CAS has neither been a Station Commander (or Commander Air Wing) as the Delivery Duty Holder (DDH), nor an AIr Officer Commanding (AOC) as the Operating Duty Holder (ODH), so as the Chief he is now the Senior Duty Holder (SDH) does that mean he has the required experience to be the SDH? Does it show and has that influenced other decisions, such as the drive to push Aircrew out of the senior command positions that we have seen under his tenure?

RA1020 is the bible on such matters: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/regulatory-article-ra-1020-roles-and-responsibilities-aviation-duty-holder-adh-and-adh-facing-organisations

SDHs will be personally legally responsible and accountable for ensuring that: an effective, end-to-end ASMS is resourced, implemented and appropriately managed in their AoRs; and that those personnel under their command who are engaged directly in aviation activities are suitably qualified, trained, experienced and equipped.

So, if you have not held the responsibility of the DDH and ODH, how effectively can you manage and appoint those under you as SDH if you have never experienced those levels of responsibility? Open question…

[alfred_the_great]

There is, of course, a link to this Air Safety sideline and the subject of this thread. I do believe that the current CAS has neither been a Station Commander (or Commander Air Wing) as the Delivery Duty Holder (DDH), nor an AIr Officer Commanding (AOC) as the Operating Duty Holder (ODH), so as the Chief he is now the Senior Duty Holder (SDH) does that mean he has the required experience to be the SDH? Does it show and has that influenced other decisions, such as the drive to push Aircrew out of the senior command positions that we have seen under his tenure?

RA1020 is the bible on such matters: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/regulatory-article-ra-1020-roles-and-responsibilities-aviation-duty-holder-adh-and-adh-facing-organisations



So, if you have not held the responsibility of the DDH and ODH, how effectively can you manage and appoint those under you as SDH if you have never experienced those levels of responsibility? Open question…

where is the intrinsic link between each level? Does it exist in the civilian flight safety community? Does Michael O’Leary have the “experience” to be an SDH?

edit - it would helpful if you then read RA1022, detailing the responsibilities of an SDH, ODH and DDH to appoint a SQEP Senior Operator to advise them.

in the case of the SDH, the ODH may be the SO, or the function maybe discharged by an individual qualified IAW Table 1 of the RA.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/888396/RA1022_Issue_5.pdf

[tucumseh]

where is the intrinsic link between each level? Does it exist in the civilian flight safety community? Does Michael O’Leary have the “experience” to be an SDH?

edit - it would helpful if you then read RA1022, detailing the responsibilities of an SDH, ODH and DDH to appoint a SQEP Senior Operator to advise them.

in the case of the SDH, the ODH may be the SO, or the function maybe discharged by an individual qualified IAW Table 1 of the RA.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/888396/RA1022_Issue_5.pdf


MoD followed the regulations you cite and were found negligent. The accompanying ruling that MoD and DSA/MAA are not independent must surely mean CAS cannot now evade responsibility in RAF matters.

[Easy Street]

The regulations used explicitly to require ODHs to have had experience as a DDH. That seems to have gone from the latest versions, with only a hint in MAA 03 Annex G that it used to be a requirement (where it indicates evidence of Station / DDH experience is to be provided for ODH nominees). There is not, and never has been a similar requirement for the SDH.

I think this is a good thing: the nature of risk management at each level is different.

I also think it is a good thing because arbitrary setting of essential experience criteria for senior roles was the vehicle by which various 'mafias' of years gone by stitched up appointments for their mates. It left the appointing agencies with few or no options, and I'm glad that era is more or less over.

[Union Jack]

PM decides on all air rank promotions. As Skywalker said to us as he shut the Jags down early.
My apologies for being a. a late arrival and b. dark blue, but is that really true? Dark blue senior promotions are very much a matter for CNS/1SL.

Jack

[alfred_the_great]

MoD followed the regulations you cite and were found negligent. The accompanying ruling that MoD and DSA/MAA are not independent must surely mean CAS cannot now evade responsibility in RAF matters.

id be interested in reading that ruling.

[Diff Tail Shim]

My apologies for being a. a late arrival and b. dark blue, but is that really true? Dark blue senior promotions are very much a matter for CNS/1SL.

Jack
When a 2 Star mentions such in a room of people, I was so far down the food chain to confirm his facts or not. I would wager the politicians rubber stamp the suggestions for all Chief's for the star positions. I would be happy to retract my comment if incorrect. I was chatting to a OF5 today at the local Proclamation. He was from a different force to the type I worked on in my time and we were mentioning people we may have both known. The CAS came into the conversation with one of my stories and one could see his opinions with the lips curling. A subject to avoid at the time.

[pr00ne]

Squirmingly embarrassing interview with Wigston on Sky News this morning. Outside Buckingham Palace he was given a really hard time by Kay Burley (imagine!) when queried on RAF recruitment processes and senior management policy in the RAF. He avoided direct answers and when repeatedly pressed merely stumbled over his evasive replies via the Battle of Britain and Afghanistan.

Not a good look.

[Fortissimo]

He was probably overwhelmed with anger that Burley chose to use an interview about RAF support for the national and Royal mourning as an opportunity to score points. That she carried on pushing even after he had given her an answer says more about her ego than her sense of occasion.

Whatever you think about the wokery, and I am not an apologist for him, it was just plain inappropriate to raise it.

[pr00ne]

He was probably overwhelmed with anger that Burley chose to use an interview about RAF support for the national and Royal mourning as an opportunity to score points. That she carried on pushing even after he had given her an answer says more about her ego than her sense of occasion.

Whatever you think about the wokery, and I am not an apologist for him, it was just plain inappropriate to raise it.

It was his first appearance on a National News Channel since the news of the recruitment crisis broke. He is the Chief of the Air Staff, what on earth did he expect? He had no right whatsover to be angry, he should have been ready for the questions and briefed accordingly. Inappropriate? Her ego? Give it a rest! She is a professional journalist and was doing her job. He came across as crashingly unprofessional, unprepared and unable to think on his feet. He is lucky that she didn't choose to quiz him on the Red Arrows debacle!

[Fitter2]

If the appropriate Ministers won't ask the right questions for us (and there is no outcome apparent that suggests they have) then we have to rely on Sky News and the rest of the media (Hurrah for Private Eye).

The scandals regarding Flight Safety and Procurement give the appearance that VSOs lie to their masters like Soviet apparatchiks to the Politburo, and ministers believe what they are told (e.g. Malcolm Rifkind's ineffective and far too late apology)

(Rant over, blood pressure recovering) .

[pr00ne]

If the appropriate Ministers won't ask the right questions for us (and there is no outcome apparent that suggests they have) then we have to rely on the BBC.

The scandals regarding Flight Safety and Procurement give the appearance that VSOs lie to their masters like Soviet apparatchiks to the Politburo, and ministers believe what they are told (e.g. Malcolm Rifkind's ineffective and far too late apology)

(Rant over, blood pressure recovering) .

Fitter2,

Many other media organisations are available, and not constrained by Government induced cuts in resources and staff.

[oldmansquipper]

https://news.sky.com/story/no-drop-in-standards-amid-diversity-row-head-of-raf-says-12696212'No drop in standards' amid diversity row, head of RAF saysblob:https://www.pprune.org/de9cf4ae-f1a9-4d6f-9fae-df35e7a4ced1

[oldmansquipper]

I have just watched the full interview on Sky news….

oh dear, oh dear, oh dear…🥺

“I have been very clear………”

No Sir! You have not.

https://news.sky.com/video/share-12696289

Perhaps an indication of the naivety of the current ‘leadership’? Unaware that the meejah does what it does… its very good at setting an ambush.

[Wyntor]

Kay Burley ....dreadful, inappropriate - she should be ashamed of herself. Sky have lost the plot.

CAS....dreadful, unprepared, awful dismal performance.

Does nobody game this stuff and do any contingency planning? What he needs is a tip top PR that knows media Ops backwards.....ooops, didn't she just quit running recruitment and selection.

You can only get ambushed by media if you have not planned and prepared properly. Of course it helps if you have not set yourself up by your actions in the first place.

[tucumseh]

Of course it helps if you have not set yourself up by your actions in the first place.

Quite right.

Those 'actions' by MoD include threatening a young female journalist outside a court house and demanding that she hand over her notes. Notes that proved MoD and the prosecution had lied in court, and that the wrong party was is in the dock. (Sean Cunningham case, 2018).

I would be very surprised if Ms Burley is not aware of this, and similar examples. My impression is that MoD is not highly thought of in the media, who are fed up of the continual bare-faced lies.

[pr00ne]

Kay Burley ....dreadful, inappropriate - she should be ashamed of herself. Sky have lost the plot.

CAS....dreadful, unprepared, awful dismal performance.

Does nobody game this stuff and do any contingency planning? What he needs is a tip top PR that knows media Ops backwards.....ooops, didn't she just quit running recruitment and selection.

You can only get ambushed by media if you have not planned and prepared properly. Of course it helps if you have not set yourself up by your actions in the first place.

What?! Kay Burley was doing her job on a 24 hour rolling live news programme. It was not a documentary on the Royals! He should have expected to be asked the questions that he was asked as he was appearing on a live news programme!

I didn’t think that anything that Kay Burley said was in any way shape ir form inappropriate, and she certainly has nothing to be ashamed off, nor has Sky News in anyway lost the plot.
CAS was the only dreadful part of that interview, and I agree with what you wrote about him.

[oldmansquipper]

What?! Kay Burley was doing her job on a 24 hour rolling live news programme. It was not a documentary on the Royals! He should have expected to be asked the questions that he was asked as he was appearing on a live news programme!

I didn’t think that anything that Kay Burley said was in any way shape ir form inappropriate, and she certainly has nothing to be ashamed off, nor has Sky News in anyway lost the plot.
CAS was the only dreadful part of that interview, and I agree with what you wrote about him.

Ms Burley was the one who WAS clear!

Perhaps it was a tad inappropriate ‘in the moment’, but, if everything is being ‘woke-washed’ elsewhere and serious questions from her Defence Correspondent colleague (Deborah Haynes - who is cvcurrently in Ukraine, I believe) are being ignored, then she rightly sized that moment (IMHO)

I have little time for the Meejah as I think most of them have attended the Goebellian Institute of Manipulative Journalism, but in this case, things needed to be dug into. Her questions were straightforward and without nuance.

Another very poor response by CAS.

[melmothtw]

I think most of them have attended the Goebellian Institute of Manipulative Journalism,

Goebbels would no doubt approve of your attacks on a free and independent media. Well done.

[dervish]

Watching ITV, I see the much maligned CAS has been reduced to the rank of Air Vice Marshal. The power of the media!

[1.3VStall]

I've just watched the Kay Burley interview of CAS. Is that really the best the RAF can do to fill the post? Wiggy the Woke came across as completely out of his depth - inept, underconfident and inarticulate. In fact he looked like something caught in my headlights in the road at night. I feel truly sorry for those who have serve under leaders(?) like him!

[Geriaviator]

"What he needs is a tip top PR that knows media Ops backwards"..

Yes indeed, another ************** spin doctor. Happy days when senior officers and officials gave brief, stilted, formal but honest intervals, well most of the time. Then of course came the Bliar creature ...

[bugged on the right]

I thought there was a lot of Blair in that response. The vertical hand gestures and the completely different answer to the question about those responsible for the new recruitment policy. A politician, not a leader you would follow into battle.

[Party Animal]

Perhaps he’s using the same PR team that advised Prince Andrew?

[MPN11]

Watching ITV, I see the much maligned CAS has been reduced to the rank of Air Vice Marshal. The power of the media!
For balance, BBC’s burbling Huw Edwards declared the C-17 “iconic” as it left EDI for EGWU.

[melmothtw]

For balance, BBC’s burbling Huw Edwards declared the C-17 “iconic” as it left EDI for EGWU.

I guess for the general public who spent nearly 20 years watching them brining fallen servicemen home, they are iconic.

[langleybaston]

I've just watched the Kay Burley interview of CAS. Is that really the best the RAF can do to fill the post? Wiggy the Woke came across as completely out of his depth - inept, underconfident and inarticulate. In fact he looked like something caught in my headlights in the road at night. I feel truly sorry for those who have serve under leaders(?) like him!

After the Michael Fish Hurricane forecast disaster the Met. Office paid big bucks for media training for the couple of dozen officers likely to be doorstepped or interviewed, I was one such. The course was intensive and brilliant. I believe the pass rate was about 50%, licensed, as it were, to mouth off as occasion demanded. One thing beaten into us: get your staff to predict the hard questions, and practice. And practice.

Are our leaders too busy or important to prepare?

[jolihokistix]

Splendid job done by the RAF at Northolt today.

[Mortmeister]

Ouch, Kay Burley was like a dog with a bone!
Not the right time for her to go there at all, but he handled that appallingly which is very embarrassing for the Service as a whole.
A switched on leader would have an answer on hand to close that line of questioning straight away, given the circumstances.
I ask myself, what is he good at?

Given the outstanding job done today by 99 Squadron and Queen’s Colour Squadron, they represent the RAF, not him.
I think special mention should go to the QCS Bearer Party, an exceptional job gentlemen under the kind of pressure than none of us will ever understand.
I can’t begin to imagine what it is like to bear the body of the greatest Sovereign this country has ever known and my goodness those lads looked young!

[Big Pistons Forever]

A politician, not a leader you would follow into battle.

You don't get to 4 star in most militaries by being a "leader" you get there by "managing up" (aka ass kissing and self promotion). I would suggest that this individual is no better or worse than his Commonwealth Military's contemporaries. Sadly he reminds me a lot of the current Canadian Armed Forces CDS

[oldmansquipper]

Splendid job done by the RAF at Northolt today.

Excellent stuff.

[Chugalug2]

Ouch,
Given the outstanding job done today by 99 Squadron and Queen’s Colour Squadron, they represent the RAF, not him.
I think special mention should go to the QCS Bearer Party, an exceptional job gentlemen under the kind of pressure than none of us will ever understand.
I can’t begin to imagine what it is like to bear the body of the greatest Sovereign this country has ever known and my goodness those lads looked young!

Well said, Mortmeister! The RAF was on show today and did itself great credit. I filled with pride to see the way they bore Her Majesty onto and off her final flight. Well done QCS (the Colour already referred to as the 'King's Colour' on Sky, shurely not?), and well done 99 Sqn.

You noticed that too? Have they lowered the recruiting age? We must always remind ourselves that they are the real RAF, not those who choose to speak on their behalf and make a right Horlicks of it.

[oldmansquipper]

Well said, Mortmeister! The RAF was on show today and did itself great credit. I filled with pride to see the way they bore Her Majesty onto and off her final flight. Well done QCS (the Colour already referred to as the 'King's Colour' on Sky (shurely not?), and well done 99 Sqn.

You noticed that too? Have they lowered the recruiting age? We must always remind ourselves that they are the real RAF, not those who choose to speak on their behalf and make a right Horlicks of it.

What he said!

Very very good.

[Stratnumberone]

That was a painful watch.

[langleybaston]

I have just forced myself to watch that shambles. Trenchard, Dowding, Harris and a dozen dozen straight talking warriors must be rotating in their graves.

To be very clear, and I do want to assure you that we are carrying on carrying on, I cannot give a straight answer even if you asked me what I had for breakfast. Oh! And I forgot that I should wear my headdress. Can I go now please?

[Barksdale Boy]

Kay Burley was doing her job. The more CAS talked about clarity the more he came across as clear as mud. QCS performed splendidly.

[Bob Viking]

That was bad. Really bad. He looked like a man with something to hide. He also looked like a man who thought the whole issue had blown over and been forgotten about. Maybe he thought a female presenter wouldn’t care about positive discrimination towards women.

Whatever was going through his mind he looked like someone had put a uniform on the janitor and sent him to the palace.

Who remembers this…

https://youtu.be/e6Y2uQn_wvc

BV

[dervish]

I thought the young lads in Scotland, both Army and RAF, did magnificently. Negotiating a C-17 ramp is not easy, but hoofing it a mile up the steep, roughly cobbled Royal Mile is potentially ankle-breaking. I thought the King was going to drop at one point, but he was brilliant. So too his siblings, especially the Princess Royal. Now there's a real leader. I'm not sure the TV commentators grasped how physically, as well as emotionally, demanding that walk was. I did smile at the marker adroitly side-stepping the horse ****.

Agree with the comments about CAS. Ill-prepared. Set up almost. But I have a tinge of sympathy. He's inherited a Service in disarray at the top, held together by those below. That doesn't happen just with one man's tenure.

[FantomZorbin]

It seems to be endemic .... a VSO briefing starts with "I'll try to be honest with you........" Several, who had no wish to be lied to, got up and left.

The RAF did an excellent job yesterday, they should be immensely proud of themselves.

[snapper41]

Splendid job done by the RAF at Northolt today.

No beards on display by QCS, which was good!

[BANANASBANANAS]

Just watched that interview. I have no time at all for Kay Burley but Wigston's on air performance was shocking. How is that supposed to inspire his subordinates?

[I am not Spartacus]

Just watched that interview. I have no time at all for Kay Burley but Wigson's on air performance was shocking. How is that supposed to inspire his subordinates?

The difference between Kay and CAS was that one was agile, adaptable and capable…..

[langleybaston]

I contrast his shifty, wet and unconvincing performance with senior army interviewed over the years.

What sometimes used to happen [and still should] is that the interviewee sat and watched the interview next day, identified cringeworthy aspects and learned from them. I have little hope in this case.

[MPN11]

I have just watched CAS/Burley and mentally wept. What an utterly awful performance by CAS. Unprepared and not even vaguely competent at answering/dodging the questions.

[PPRuNeUser0157]

I served from 1965 to 1996. I have not seen a poorer interview by any CAS. The Secretary of State for Defence needs to make a change asap.

[BlackIsle]

The interview with Kay Burley will perhaps feature in future media training - what a shockingly poor performance.

[Fitter2]

Dervish:
He's inherited a Service in disarray at the top, held together by those below. That doesn't happen just with one man's tenure.
True. But this latest shambolic example of VSOs decisions (or those under them, and carrying out their policy) did happen on his watch, and is recent - can't be blamed on his predecessors. And his job is to correct the past errors. Instead each new top boss shows what happens when the best politician is promoted over those capable of getting the job done.

On the other hand, +1 to the compliments to those carrying out their duty at Edinburgh and Northolt yesterday. As usual, the ones at the sharp end get the job done, and are a credit to the RAF and their Commander in Chief.

[Old-Duffer]

HELP - where can I get to see the interview?

Old Duffer

[langleybaston]

HELP - where can I get to see the interview?

Old Duffer

Best avoided, embarrassing to anyone who cares for the Royal Air Force.

[BEagle]

Available here: https://news.sky.com/video/share-12696289

[nilocp]

Job for him in politics?

[Ali Qadoo]

I tried to watch the Kay Burley interview clip but found it too excruciating and simply couldn't make it to the end. That someone so lacking in presence and mental agility is now CAS depresses me beyond belief.

[DODGYOLDFART]

I tried to watch the Kay Burley interview clip but found it too excruciating and simply couldn't make it to the end. That someone so lacking in presence and mental agility is now CAS depresses me beyond belief.
Regrettably I cannot agree more! Is this what the RAF has now come to.

[Union Jack]

Can a King Crab move sideways? :rolleyes:

Jack

[MPN11]

Can a King Crab move sideways? :rolleyes:
I'll let you get away with that, as it's both funny and almost accurate. :ok:

[Hueymeister]

If even a smidge of what is alleged on the latest fast jet performance YouTube offering is based on fact, wiggy and his team need dragging out in stocks and pelted with turds. What an utter laughing stock he’s presiding over. Imagine taking alleged sexual harassment victims down to your house iot seemingly coerce them into not seeking help outside of the RAF….

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Is this all being swept under the rug?

https://youtu.be/Gy14j38p1Ok

[Chugalug2]

I Agree with the comments about CAS. Ill-prepared. Set up almost. But I have a tinge of sympathy. He's inherited a Service in disarray at the top, held together by those below. That doesn't happen just with one man's tenure.

I have to agree with you, dervish. Other than blighting a Gp Capt's career, there has been little apparent damage done by this ill-thought-out and illegal policy by an ill-thinking CAS. I say apparent, because the Tim Davies video posted by Ewan Whosearmy implies that damage had already been done to those recruited, to those not recruited, and to the RAF, prior to these recent events. We shall see, what the bemedaled buffoons (ack Anthony Aloysius Hancock) need to realise is that the truth will out. It always does, and faster than ever these days. What we do know is that the Star Chamber in general has been orchestrating a cover up of the illegal actions of RAF VSOs for some thirty years. As a result many aircrew, other Service personnel, and civilians have died, and more will do so yet until it is admitted to and reform follows. So, whatever befalls this CAS, the next one will still be tarred with this brush, as will be the rest of the RAF Leadership. Never was there a clearer illustration of the old maxim, Evil Will Triumph if Good Men do Nothing, to which I hastily add Women of course. Time for them to stand up and be counted. Their silence is deafening!

Can I also thank you for your kind words in an earlier post? :-

. "But only in the case of MoD has a court ruled that the Defence Safety Authority / Military Aviation Authority is not independent of MoD."

Chug. I imagine you are pleased with this ruling. Small steps. How it came about is a fascinating and immensely sad read. Well done.

You are too kind, but I am a mere spear carrier in this campaign, as are others. Perhaps I should invoke the same maxim? No-one who reads these pages can be unaware of the airworthiness crisis that infects UK Military Aviation now. An unairworthy air force cannot prevail. We must have reform of Air Regulation and Accident Investigation. Delay only threatens yet more avoidable accidents, more avoidable deaths, and potential disaster for this nation (I write this on Battle of Britain Day!). To all good men and women, your Country needs you, Now!

[Old-Duffer]

I have now seen the video and it is not the best publicity for the RAF!

Had I been caught in Kay Burley’s trap, my response would have been something like: ‘There are many criteria we take into consideration in our manning and training plots and we are mindful of the need to address diversity and inclusivity targets. We did consider prioritising those aspects but judged it could not be done for a variety of reasons. These reasons included the legal position and need to take the best on offer, regardless of any of the ‘ities’ which there might be’.

Had Burley continued in the same line, I would have said ‘We’ve dealt with that matter and unless you wish to discuss the real focus of the day, shall we end the interview, so we may both pursue something more productive’

Old Duffer

[tucumseh]

I have now seen the video and it is not the best publicity for the RAF!

Had I been caught in Kay Burley’s trap, my response would have been something like: ‘There are many criteria we take into consideration in our manning and training plots and we are mindful of the need to address diversity and inclusivity targets. We did consider prioritising those aspects but judged it could not be done for a variety of reasons. These reasons included the legal position and need to take the best on offer, regardless of any of the ‘ities’ which there might be’.

Had Burley continued in the same line, I would have said ‘We’ve dealt with that matter and unless you wish to discuss the real focus of the day, shall we end the interview, so we may both pursue something more productive’

Old Duffer

I suspect la Burley would have stopped him half-way through and pointed out the continued lie!

[pulse1]

Notwithstanding his role in the whole Mull of Kyintire disaster, it might be worth comparing ACM Bill Wratten's interview technique : BBC News | NEWSNIGHT | Chinook transcript (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/events/newsnight/1050467.stm)
(Sorry, I could only find a transcript)

[Tiger G]

I have now seen the video and it is not the best publicity for the RAF!

Had I been caught in Kay Burley’s trap, my response would have been something like: ‘There are many criteria we take into consideration in our manning and training plots and we are mindful of the need to address diversity and inclusivity targets. We did consider prioritising those aspects but judged it could not be done for a variety of reasons. These reasons included the legal position and need to take the best on offer, regardless of any of the ‘ities’ which there might be’.

Had Burley continued in the same line, I would have said ‘We’ve dealt with that matter and unless you wish to discuss the real focus of the day, shall we end the interview, so we may both pursue something more productive’

Old Duffer


You can't say "manning" in this day and age.......guess what.......it offends, and is deemed sexist !! :mad:

You have to say something like "staffing" :(

Oh, the irony.....

[G-MILF]

To quote the great Malcolm Tucker (Peter Capaldi) in 'The Thick of It'; "who was it that did your media training, Myra Hindley?"

[Hueymeister]

Notwithstanding his role in the whole Mull of Kyintire disaster, it might be worth comparing ACM Bill Wratten's interview technique : BBC News | NEWSNIGHT | Chinook transcript (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/events/newsnight/1050467.stm)
(Sorry, I could only find a transcript)

wow Willy Wrotten really did a piece there. Arrogant ass.

[Old-Duffer]

Thank you TIGER G for pointing out my error! I am not repentant, however, as I seek every opportunity to kick back at 'wokeness'.

My current line, when challenged , is to say that having passed my 'three score and ten' I am exempt from all this PC nonsense and will speak as I please - I don't deliberately set out to be abusive etc but I decline to be influenced by (a) the current fashion to find offence in everything and (b) that it is me who has to 'adjust' my behaviour.
I think we might be drifting the Thread a little too far for the Mods but it is relevant to the CAS and his performance on this occasion..

Old Duffer

[tucumseh]

Notwithstanding his role in the whole Mull of Kyintire disaster, it might be worth comparing ACM Bill Wratten's interview technique : BBC News | NEWSNIGHT | Chinook transcript (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/events/newsnight/1050467.stm)
(Sorry, I could only find a transcript)

And he lied too! As did CAS. ('The aircraft was off course by some miles').

MoD's technique relies too much on the interviewer not being sufficiently briefed. CAS must have known that his staff are leaking papers and e-mails on this BAME/women issue left, right and centre. He authored a report on the subject, and it's in the public domain, so fair game to the media. Is he stupid, or is someone not briefing him just exactly what orders have been issued on the subject, in his name?

The trouble MoD has is remembering who has lied about what. If the subject hadn't been so serious, its performance in court in the Jon Bayliss case was hysterical high farce. When exposed after the event, the law prevented the court from taking action. That's left to members of the public, as is the case with the current issue. MoD is in no position to complain. It should come clean.


‘If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything’. (Mark Twain).

[oldmansquipper]

I have read Mr Wrattens response in the Paxman interview and I was struck by the following bit

SIR WILLIAM WRATTEN:

“So the analogy further is then that the interests of senior Royal Air Force commanders are parallel with those of the chief executive of a commercial organisation. That seems to me to be an extraordinary accusation, which impugns the integrity not only of my colleagues and me but also of the chief executive of Air France, who also may have something to say on the matter…”

Is it me , or is that not what ‘Wiggy’ is doing right now? Trying to turn the RAF into a ‘Woke’ Commercial Organisation?

[[email protected]]

More that "You cannot compare senior military officers to mere civilian CEOs as we are clearly more important and aligning our superior values with those of a CEO somehow demeans the CEO"

Talk about arrogance.

[beardy]

Most people on this forum from the UK are likely to be tracking the current scandals engulfing the Royal Air Force at a Senior Leadership level.

Can the Chief of the Air Staff really survive this onslaught?

No statement has been released from his office. Ben Wallace is not known to pity fools, I wonder what conversations are occurring behind closed doors.

Genuinely trying to spark some debate, the RAF seems to be in disarray according to the media…

Mr Vice.
The only arbiters of the performance of the VSOs are the politicians who appoint them. His future is linked to their politics and not his performance.
​​​​​​

[Chugalug2]

The only arbiters of the performance of the VSOs are the politicians who appoint them. His future is linked to their politics and not his performance.
​​​​​​

This. The Royal Air Force was devised with this in mind. It was the price that had to be paid for its very existence by its founding fathers. The disadvantages emerged in WWII, but the real damage has been done long since. Those of my generation were favoured with VSO warriors who knew the importance of comradeship, duty, sacrifice, and service. The long period of peace since (not withstanding post-colonial and expeditionary conflicts) has seen the rise of the professional VSO, and such values have given way to ambition, self-advancement, and ruthlessness.

I generalise of course. Self-interest was present in WWII, just as dedication to duty doubtless exists still within the higher echelons of the RAF, but the present CAS armed with a personal agenda is a child of our times. No doubt the corridors of power reverberate already with talk of a palace coup, and the old adage that one should be careful what one wishes for springs to mind.

I would venture that this is no way to run a whelk stall let alone a modern air force. It is VSOs that have rendered whole RAF fleets to be unairworthy and enabled a cover up that prevents necessary reform. It has to stop. They have to stop. The RAF needs leaders, not managers. Where are they?

[langleybaston]

The group captain who resigned over wokeness led by example.

[cynicalint]

" Excellent operational officer, but needs to develop finer tuned political antennae to progress" Ended career at Sqn Ldr. That, and possibly better people coming up behind me that had more potential and who managed to combine both!

[langleybaston]

and this little Met Man: " firm, fair but evidently missed the lessons on tact and diplomacy".

Career saved by a good man who refused to forward an incendiary missive, keeping it in his In Tray until Monday, by which time I had cooled down.

[Chugalug2]

The group captain who resigned over wokeness led by example.

I hope that she resigned in protest at being given an illegal order. In which case she was right to refuse to obey it. That shouldn't mean that she should resign though. Rather those who originated and conveyed the illegal order should be investigated and if necessary prosecuted. They won't be of course; in which case she had no alternative but to resign. Another indication of the rottenness that is at the heart of the RAF High Command.

[oldmansquipper]

I hope that she resigned in protest at being given an illegal order. In which case she was right to refuse to obey it. That shouldn't mean that she should resign though. Rather those who originated and conveyed the illegal order should be investigated and if necessary prosecuted. They won't be of course; in which case she had no alternative but to resign. Another indication of the rottenness that is at the heart of the RAF High Command.

What is it with these people?

Boris…..”I didn’t go to a party, I didn’t lie…… etc”
Andrew Windsor…..”I didn’t have sex with that woman….”
Bill Clinton …as above
Nixon…”there is no whitewash in the white house”
Wratten..”Pilot error, pure and simple - no evidence to the contrary”
Reagan …”To my knowledge we are not supplying the contras with weapons in return for cocaine”


All of the above LEADERS (leaders, with one exception, perhaps) were finally caught out and perhaps should have owned up straight away. people would have moved on.

However perhaps it explains the current (haven’t checked the news today) CAS’s approach to incisive Meejah questioning.


Wiggy…”Thank you, Kay. Erm…. I have been very clear, erm…that I am very clear…Kay…”
etc etc

[Low average]

In an ideal world, politicians should be leaders, but they just aren't. The majority haven't got the aptitude, experience or training.

Military officers however...whats their excuse?

Ben Wallace has a good military background, I wonder what was going through his mind when he watched that interview? (if he could bring himself to do it!)

[Just This Once...]

Ben Wallace has a good military background, I wonder what was going through his mind when he watched that interview? (if he could bring himself to do it!)

That politicians are foolish?

Wiggy may have wanted to be a CO but the RAF decided otherwise. He may have wanted to be an AOC but the RAF made the decision to appoint others instead. Wiggy's sponsors may have got him to 2-star but he only got the conciliation prize of a mediocre joint appointment before he limped to 3-star. Neither the RAF or MOD pushed him further but the then Secretary of Defence (the one that told Russia to 'go away') ignored the candidate list for CAS and pushed Wiggy into the job instead.

Outside of being a squadron boss (technically an OC post only), Wiggy's stint as CAS is his first proper command tour. That choice has aged like fine milk.

[NutLoose]

He came across as inept and that was putting it mildly..

[Union Jack]

That politicians are foolish?

Wiggy may have wanted to be a CO but the RAF decided otherwise. He may have wanted to be an AOC but the RAF made the decision to appoint others instead. Wiggy's sponsors may have got him to 2-star but he only got the conciliation prize of a mediocre joint appointment before he limped to 3-star. Neither the RAF or MOD pushed him further but the then Secretary of Defence (the one that told Russia to 'go away') ignored the candidate list for CAS and pushed Wiggy into the job instead.

Outside of being a squadron boss (technically an OC post only), Wiggy's stint as CAS is his first proper command tour. That choice has aged like fine milk.
Is this your way of saying that this choice has turned into some variety of Swiss cheese?

Jack

[unmanned_droid]

Started with the Police and spread to the armed forces. Pretty sure my bro only got into the BTP because they had a ginger quota (and it was the Olympics...so they needed bodies regardless of targets) - every other force were not recruiting white males.

This is what happens when average people think they can run a public service or organisation like a corporation, when they clearly don't understand what makes either of those entities function.

Weak doesn't even begin to cover it.

[WB627]

Notwithstanding his role in the whole Mull of Kyintire disaster, it might be worth comparing ACM Bill Wratten's interview technique : BBC News | NEWSNIGHT | Chinook transcript (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/events/newsnight/1050467.stm)
(Sorry, I could only find a transcript)

WOW!!!
I stopped my ATC Cadet son flying in Chinooks because of this. I never ever believed the crew were responsible, neither did my Dad an ex QFI.

One of the things he said to me, is that you cannot blame a dead crew for an accident, as they are unable to defend themselves. Is or was that once true?

RIP all who were killed.

[Timelord]

WOW!!!
I stopped my ATC Cadet son flying in Chinooks because of this. I never ever believed the crew were responsible, neither did my Dad an ex QFI.

One of the things he said to me, is that you cannot blame a dead crew for an accident, as they are unable to defend themselves. Is or was that once true?

RIP all who were killed.

I can’t speak to the rules now but at the time they stated that; “Only when there is no doubt whatsoever” can a deceased crew be found negligent. Whatever happened at the Mull there was certainly doubt in everyone’s mind except Wratten’s

[Chugalug2]

Outside of being a squadron boss (technically an OC post only), Wiggy's stint as CAS is his first proper command tour. That choice has aged like fine milk.

An interesting take, JTO. Your mention of OC, as against CO, says it all. To my mind, the only real commanders in the RAF command people in Squadrons, Wings, and Stations. Those outside the Station Gates generally command bureaucratic formations, ie Groups and Commands. So the RAF's commanders start as OC's and peter out as CO's. All this despite the glittering descriptions afforded to Air Officers Commanding, and ditto-In-Chief. Almost suggests a deliberate ploy to play down the bureaucratic arrangements to the contrary. Funny that.

[Jackonicko]

Now he may not be perfect, and he may have made mistakes, but Mike Wigston is a bloody good officer, IMHO, and I've met and chatted with every CAS since Pete Squire, and even a few before that (Spotswood, Cameron, Beetham, Harding and Graydon). He's absolutely in command of his brief in a way that few other CASs have been, and he's relaxed, confident, engaging and charismatic, personable and likeable. I have no doubt at all that he works hard to do his best for the service, but he also works hard to fulfil the directives that he's given by his political masters, and I suspect that is why so much effort has gone into the D&I stuff.

Seeing him sneered at by lesser men, from behind the anonymity of PPRuNe user names just feels a bit off, frankly.

[langleybaston]

Now he may not be perfect, and he may have made mistakes, but Mike Wigston is a bloody good officer, IMHO, and I've met and chatted with every CAS since Pete Squire, and even a few before that (Spotswood, Cameron, Beetham, Harding and Graydon). He's absolutely in command of his brief in a way that few other CASs have been, and he's relaxed, confident, engaging and charismatic, personable and likeable. I have no doubt at all that he works hard to do his best for the service, but he also works hard to fulfil the directives that he's given by his political masters, and I suspect that is why so much effort has gone into the D&I stuff.

Seeing him sneered at by lesser men, from behind the anonymity of PPRuNe user names just feels a bit off, frankly.

Top tip for NAME DROP OF THE YEAR.

Lloyd George knew my father.

[Jackonicko]

Spotswood presented me with a form prize at my school, Cameron and Beetham were long retired when I met them.

[Chugalug2]

Jackoniko :-
Now he may not be perfect, and he may have made mistakes, but Mike Wigston is a bloody good officer, IMHO, and I've met and chatted with every CAS since Pete Squire, and even a few before that (Spotswood, Cameron, Beetham, Harding and Graydon). He's absolutely in command of his brief in a way that few other CASs have been, and he's relaxed, confident, engaging and charismatic, personable and likeable. I have no doubt at all that he works hard to do his best for the service, but he also works hard to fulfil the directives that he's given by his political masters, and I suspect that is why so much effort has gone into the D&I stuff.

Seeing him sneered at by lesser men, from behind the anonymity of PPRuNe user names just feels a bit off, frankly.


So did the 'D&I stuff' you mention start out as a directive from his political masters? Did it specifically require him to stop all white male recruiting in favour of that for BAME and female applicants? If so, it was illegal and should have been stopped then and there! If not, was it he who issued that illegal order? I only ask because rather than denouncing it, he merely said that it had not been implemented having been challenged. Well, we know who challenged it, an RAF Gp Capt, but who issued it? Was it the CAS? Being on such intimate terms with him perhaps you know?

To my knowledge, I have never spoken with any CAS, with the exception of MRAF Sir Dennis Spotswood who was Commandant of the RAFC then. So, you clearly have the advantage on me, and I suspect most of the other 'lesser men' you castigate, given the many others you have conversed with over the years. One might ask, "So what?". Being CAS doesn't call for impressing those one is glad handing; it calls for maintaining the fighting efficiency of the Royal Air Force. How many marks out of ten would he rate for that I wonder, while he pondered on his 'courageous' recruiting initiatives?

As to PPRuNe anonymity, it was always the last straw to be grasped by apologists in the many airworthiness related fatal accident threads. I hadn't realised that you don't post anonymously, Mr Jackonico.

Finally, other CAS's have presided over far more devastating harm to the Service than this one has, though all since then share the blame for ensuring that harm be covered up. None of them though got caught out quite so blatantly as this relaxed, confident, engaging and charismatic, personable and likeable man. In that he is quite unique.

[cheekychimp]

Now he may not be perfect, and he may have made mistakes, but Mike Wigston is a bloody good officer, IMHO, and I've met and chatted with every CAS since Pete Squire, and even a few before that (Spotswood, Cameron, Beetham, Harding and Graydon). He's absolutely in command of his brief in a way that few other CASs have been, and he's relaxed, confident, engaging and charismatic, personable and likeable. I have no doubt at all that he works hard to do his best for the service, but he also works hard to fulfil the directives that he's given by his political masters, and I suspect that is why so much effort has gone into the D&I stuff.

Seeing him sneered at by lesser men, from behind the anonymity of PPRuNe user names just feels a bit off, frankly.
Cheers Mike.

[ExAdvert]

Cheers Mike.
Where's the "like" button?!

[langleybaston]

Where's the "like" button?!

That button is unlikely to be worn out on this thread.

I do hope CAS can keep in step and stand with neck in back of collar, shoulders braced, tomorrow.
The King's boys and girls certainly will.

[Toadstool]

That button is unlikely to be worn out on this thread.

I do hope CAS can keep in step and stand with neck in back of collar, shoulders braced, tomorrow.
The King's boys and girls certainly will.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1340x2000/24f1061c_2400_48b2_9d73_cf4d226e60d7_0ad4273b98a19678e3af6eb a33d3dd4007c867ba.jpeg
LB. Like this?

[BATCO]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1340x2000/24f1061c_2400_48b2_9d73_cf4d226e60d7_0ad4273b98a19678e3af6eb a33d3dd4007c867ba.jpeg
LB. Like this?

Can anyone explain the sword he is carrying? It doesn't look like an Air Rank sword to me.
Also, the grip of his left hand on scabbard? It doesn't appear to be from the rear of the scabbard.


Batco

[Fortissimo]

Can anyone explain the sword he is carrying? It doesn't look like an Air Rank sword to me.
Also, the grip of his left hand on scabbard? It doesn't appear to be from the rear of the scabbard.

Correct, it’s not a standard sword. It is the CAS Sword that is passed on at each change of command. Names and dates of office are inscribed on the blade.

As for grip on the scabbard, he might well have been asked to match the other Chiefs on the Vigil? Either way, it doesn’t seem like a sending off offence.

The Air Officer’s sword is the same as that carried by any other officer. The only difference is the scabbard and frogs, which are more ornate.

[BATCO]

Correct, it’s not a standard sword. It is the CAS Sword that is passed on at each change of command. Names and dates of office are inscribed on the blade.......


F
Many thanks. Never meant it as criticism of CAS, mere curiosity.
Batco

[WB627]

Do you think he practised that ‘sad’ expression?

How many happy faces did you see today? :mad:

[DuncanDoenitz]

Wrong scabbard grip? Wrong type of sword? Too sad? Not sad enough? Wouldn't be surprised to learn that he also has a defective rear light on his bicycle, the bounder; "Sack him", I say!!!

(Methinks some correspondents to this thread may be floundering somewhat).

[Jackonicko]

Jackoniko :-
So did the 'D&I stuff' you mention start out as a directive from his political masters?

In my limited experience, even Air Rank officers tend not to be the initiators of policy.

Jackoniko :-
Being CAS doesn't call for impressing those one is glad handing; it calls for maintaining the fighting efficiency of the Royal Air Force. How many marks out of ten would he rate for that I wonder, while he pondered on his 'courageous' recruiting initiatives?

Impressing journos is absolutely not a core skillset for a CAS, but it's not a bad bonus.

Being a manifestly high calibre bloke doesn't seem to have always been a required attribute in a CAS (no names, no pack drill) but again, it's not a bad bonus.

Leaving a really favourable impression of himself and the service he commands? Bloody useful, I'd have thought.

Because perhaps impressing and getting on with his political masters might be absolutely the key to unlocking the funding and goodwill upon which the fighting efficiency of the Royal Air Force will depend in the years to come?

And winding up octogenarians who are stuck in the past? Not just a bonus, but an absolute necessity, perhaps?

​​​​​​​Jackoniko :-I hadn't realised that you don't post anonymously, Mr Jackonico.

Well spotted. However, my identity isn't much of a secret, and in any case, I don't use my anonymity to snipe at a better man than I am, who is also at the top of the RAF chain of command. And though as a 61 year old I deplore all the new woke initiatives (especially the lunacy of calling the Station Commander's cat an Aviator), I don't take to PPRuNe to lambast the Chief for them.
​​​​​​​

[Chugalug2]

Jackonicko :-
winding up octogenarians who are stuck in the past? Not just a bonus, but an absolute necessity, perhaps?

An utter waste of time, I'm afraid. More years ago than I care to remember, I was told that it was my duty to refuse to obey all illegal orders, and to report them to a senior officer. Even as a callow youth I realised that this was never likely to be to my advantage, but a bullet to bite if it ever occurred. Mercifully it never did (to my knowledge), but it did happen to an RAF Group Captain. Quite rightly she refused, and as I had already predicted, she then paid the cost. She did her duty, Jackonicko!

Once again, I ask if CAS was ordered by his masters to carry out this illegal instruction, to stop recruiting white males into the RAF? If yes, it was his duty to refuse. If no, did he issue that order to a subordinate? If yes, he failed in his duty. If no, then who did? What did the CAS do as soon as he knew such an order had been issued? How come the SO involved felt obliged to resign, and why has no-one been charged with issuing an illegal order?

There is something rotten in the state of Denmark, even if that is not apparent to certain impressed journalists

[dervish]

Once again, I ask if CAS was ordered by his masters to carry out this illegal instruction, to stop recruiting white males into the RAF? If yes, it was his duty to refuse. If no, did he issue that order to a subordinate? If yes, he failed in his duty. If no, then who did? What did the CAS do as soon as he knew such an order had been issued? How come the SO involved felt obliged to resign, and why has no-one been charged with issuing an illegal order?
There is something rotten in the state of Denmark, even if that is not apparent to certain impressed journalists

Well said.

[Timelord]

I cannot claim to have known any CASs in the past although I did know Sir Mike when he was lower down the greasy pole, and I agree that he is a jolly nice chap. I do claim however, to be well connected with currently serving front line personnel and they do not share Jacko’s admiration for CAS. Indeed one front line pilot recently opined to me, only half joking, that CAS was a Russian agent charged with destroying the fighting spirit of the RAF.

[NutLoose]

Judging by the carpet he is suffering from woodworm..