Can Wigston survive the onslaught?

[melmothtw]

I cannot claim to have known any CASs in the past although I did know Sir Mike when he was lower down the greasy pole, and I agree that he is a jolly nice chap. I do claim however, to be well connected with currently serving front line personnel and they do not share Jacko’s admiration for CAS. Indeed one front line pilot recently opined to me, only half joking, that CAS was a Russian agent charged with destroying the fighting spirit of the RAF.

Has any CAS been popular with his people while in post? I've had experience of a few during my 20+ years in aerospace journalism, and they've certainly been a mixed bunch in that time.

[Fitter2]

There is a subtle difference between being unpopular for demanding '110%' without recognising achievements of the sharp end people, and being held in contempt for undermining the security of the UK by playing politics popular with politicians.

[oldmansquipper]

Got to thinking….Have I known any CAS?

I once fitted Steve Daltons speed jeans IIRC. Does that count?

😉

[Easy Street]

The insanity of all this is that the Conservative party, which has run the show for as long as Wiggy has been near the top, veers between 'disinterested' and 'actively hostile' in its attitude to the woke agenda. So who is Wiggy trying to impress? Who is the true wielder of power and patronage in whatever games are going on up there?

[Chugalug2]

The insanity of all this is that the Conservative party, which has run the show for as long as Wiggy has been near the top, veers between 'disinterested' and 'actively hostile' in its attitude to the woke agenda. So who is Wiggy trying to impress? Who is the true wielder of power and patronage in whatever games are going on up there?

The Conservative Party veers, as you put it, depending on which part you deal with. Woke, non-Woke, Remainers, Leavers, top-downers, bottom-uppers, all are welcome within its broad church. It is just possible that some of the former had a good idea for RAF recruiting, but more likely for Forces recruiting in general. Whether the good idea came from within or without though, the trouble seems to have happened within the RAF leadership. Wild eyed zealots there interpreted the reasonable aim of increasing recruitment from BAME communities, as well as more women in general, as the opportunity to beat those reasonable aims by orders of magnitude. Whether or not it was the CAS who instigated the illegal order to stop all white male RAF recruiting is beside the point. He would have known of the initiative and given it his blessing.

In traditional Star Chamber practice, those outside of it (JOs, SOs, and 1 Stars) continue to pay the cost of failure. This time a Group Captain who did her duty, as well as those recruited and those not recruited. The pity of it is that when this CAS goes, he will simply be replaced with much of the same. In particular, the cover up will continue while the leaden hands of ex-serving Air Officers pull the strings of those still in post. It needs to stop. They need to be stopped!

[Haraka]

I think Chug has summed the conundrum up well. After a while the penny drops. There are certain non-operational personal demands and requirements in order for those chosen to "Climb the Greasy Pole"

Such is life!

[iRaven]

So, Wiggy has just glossed over this and Sky News have moved on. Is that it? I see that a new Group Captain has been appointed too:

Group Captain L Griffin to be Group Captain Recruitment and Selection, Royal Air Force College Cranwell in December 2022 in succession to Group Captain E J Nicholl OBE.

https://www.raf.mod.uk/our-organisation/senior-appointments/

I would have expected Sky News to have revisited James Heapey or Ben Wallace with the same kind of questions that Kay Burley asked? It’s all gone a bit quiet without anyone being held to account for what seems to be horrific discrimination against some hopefuls to join up.

[The B Word]

As if by magic, a video appeared:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&fbclid=IwAR07zSKCTVWt7n4ju0XJM470g2WIKYwT2FbsOVoctCN21AQo-yofzdL3BBA&v=PB7w9pwpbRE&feature=youtu.be

If true, then it would appear that the Senior Leadership interviewed on this matter have not been telling the truth. :ouch:

[alfred_the_great]

As if by magic, a video appeared:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&fbclid=IwAR07zSKCTVWt7n4ju0XJM470g2WIKYwT2FbsOVoctCN21AQo-yofzdL3BBA&v=PB7w9pwpbRE&feature=youtu.be

If true, then it would appear that the Senior Leadership interviewed on this matter have not been telling the truth. :ouch:

oh look, someone with a monetised YouTube channel - who also doesn’t like the “modern” RAF - has a SHOCKING and EXPOSED story to tell us.

[Chugalug2]

oh look, someone with a monetised YouTube channel - who also doesn’t like the “modern” RAF - has a SHOCKING and EXPOSED story to tell us.

What is it about the 'modern' RAF, atg, that is not to like? Is it perhaps the issue of an illegal order dismissed as, "challenged and never implemented", by the CAS? Is it perhaps a cynical adulteration of an effective RN selection algorithm so that only BAME and Female applicants can succeed? Is it the forced resignation of a Group Captain for doing her duty? If so, then label me as not liking the 'modern' RAF either!

[Low average]

Video looks bang-on to me.

[alfred_the_great]

What is it about the 'modern' RAF, atg, that is not to like? Is it perhaps the issue of an illegal order dismissed as, "challenged and never implemented", by the CAS? Is it perhaps a cynical adulteration of an effective RN selection algorithm so that only BAME and Female applicants can succeed? Is it the forced resignation of a Group Captain for doing her duty? If so, then label me as not liking the 'modern' RAF either!

it’s more the ckickbait nature of his channel, and the classic exaggerate/repeat style of a monetised stream.

im not in the RAF, but am serving, and my view of the RAF is that in some places it’s really good, and in others it’s dreadful. Which applies to my own service and the others as well.

[Low average]

it’s more the ckickbait nature of his channel, and the classic exaggerate/repeat style of a monetised stream.

im not in the RAF, but am serving, and my view of the RAF is that in some places it’s really good, and in others it’s dreadful. Which applies to my own service and the others as well.

Yes, there are always good and bad bits, however potentially illegal practices which damaged individuals and the reputation of the organisation as a whole must be dealt with head-on.

There are some slippery fish high up. A demonstration of ownership and accountability is what's needed, and all of this has a chance of going away (post-settlements maybe...).

[Fitter2]

im not in the RAF,

I was in the RAF (quite a long time ago, admittedly. From my perspective of then, and talking to those still serving

but am serving, and my view of the RAF is that in some places it’s really good,

SNCOs and most airmen, who get on with doing the best job they can with the kit they are given. Supported by some Commissioned Officers, the best being some Sqn. Ldr.s who haven't done Staff College, and know what is actually necessary

and in others it’s dreadful.

including most VSOs who have played the political system and are prepared to issue illegal orders, and threaten anyone who might obstruct their progress up the slippery pole

Just my opinion, of course.

[dervish]

If true, then it would appear that the Senior Leadership interviewed on this matter have not been telling the truth. :ouch:

MoD tells lies? Who knew?

Alfred. You hit 'auto troll' again. Get a better keyboard.

[Diff Tail Shim]

I was chatting to an old mate whom has just left the service having reached quite high up the grape vine. He was very clear on the clangers the CAS had made and the ramifications as he saw due to them. I couldn't disagree with his logic.

[oldmansquipper]

Reading through this, it looks like a Flt Lt was responsible!…….The boundah, how dare he?

See…….The VSOs had nothing to do with it. Probably be put down to a sort of administrative ‘pilot error’ I suppose.


Might be KC3’s first opportunity to say “Orf with his head”?



https://news.sky.com/story/raf-admits-mistakes-were-made-after-claims-it-prioritised-hiring-ethnic-minority-and-female-candidates-12705894RAF admits 'mistakes were made' after claims it prioritised hiring ethnic minority and female candidatesblob:https://www.pprune.org/ccd48990-cb3f-497a-b5e7-9812143b0ff6

[RAFEngO74to09]

(1) Dava on Twitter: "Surely #wokewigston @ChiefofAirStaff must now be removed from post with immediate effect. The man has hugely damaged the @RoyalAirForce with his appalling leadership. Time for @trussliz and @BWallaceMP to step up! @timdavies_uk @SkyNews" / Twitter

[Trumpet trousers]

Regarding Deborah Haynes' last comment in that video, the simple answer is - NOBODY. Expect lots of trite statements about 'lessons being learnt' etc. etc from the RAF hierarchy, but no action whatsoever. The fact that it happened on Wigston's watch should be enough for him to do the honourable thing and resign, but don't hold your breath. The car crash that was his interview with Kay Burley should have been enough for him to go, but he didn't. The only person that can hold their head high in all of this is the recently departed Gp Capt who had the integrity to stand up to an illegal order and resign her position.

[BEagle]

Expect lots of trite statements about 'lessons being learnt'...[...]

Ah but TT, these days that phrase isn't used. Nowadays it's 'lessons identified', I gather!

[Big Pistons Forever]

If I was Defence Minister I would tell CAS to rehire the Group Captain who showed some spine, promote her to Air Commodore and put her back in charge of recruiting. I would then fire the CAS.

That would send a message to the RAF top brass.

However that will never happen because politicians will never reward honourable behaviour in the armed forces.

The whole sad charade reminds me of the old management maxim

First rate leaders hire first rate assistants, second rate leaders hire third rate assistants.

A guy like Wigston at the top is what happens when every step up through the senior ranks was a result of sucking up to second rate leaders.

[iRaven]

Keep on digging Sky, there is more to find, I’m sure.

https://youtu.be/-7fDDO08sNQ

Like, how do you get an “all female dais” at a RAFC Cranwell Graduation without actively turning away the males that are on the staff at the College?

https://twitter.com/navy_women/status/1441520727598018562

[Hueymeister]

I used this in a briefing to a senior bod not that long ago. Back came the rebuttal that ‘going forward we won’t be using ‘learned’ as it implies measures had been taken to stop it happening again’. Wow….

[snapper41]

It appears this sort of recruitment policy isn’t solely an RAF initiative:

https://www.hr-inform.co.uk/news-article/organisation-under-fire-for-white-male-discrimination

[PlasticCabDriver]

Keep on digging Sky, there is more to find, I’m sure.

https://youtu.be/-7fDDO08sNQ

Like, how do you get an “all female dais” at a RAFC Cranwell Graduation without actively turning away the males that are on the staff at the College?

https://twitter.com/navy_women/status/1441520727598018562

To digress slightly, why are there what look to be “non-cadet” officers in the ranks? There’s a Flt Lt in the front rank for instance.

[Toadstool]

To digress slightly, why are there what look to be “non-cadet” officers in the ranks? There’s a Flt Lt in the front rank for instance.

Looking at their age, and the number/type of medals worn, they have probably just completed the Commissioned Warrant Officers course, hence the promotion to Flt Lt.

[charliegolf]

Looking at their age, and the number/type of medals worn, they have probably just completed the Commissioned Warrant Officers course, hence the promotion to Flt Lt.

If graduates, then why are they not wearing tw4t bands on their hats?

CG

[MPN11]

If graduates, then why are they not wearing tw4t bands on their hats?

CG
I would suggest because they already know a lot about the RAF and Leadership. They don't need, or deserve, the Officer Cadet equivalent of L-plates.

[charliegolf]

I would suggest because they already know a lot about the RAF and Leadership. They don't need, or deserve, the Officer Cadet equivalent of L-plates.
Then why waste a day at Cranwell. Give them a uniform and say, at 2359 you are an officer. On your way.

CG

[MPN11]

Then why waste a day at Cranwell. Give them a uniform and say, at 2359 you are an officer. On your way.

CGThere are certain things that only Officers know, such as the secret handshake, and they need to be taught these things.

[The Helpful Stacker]

There are certain things that only Officers know, such as the secret handshake, and they need to be taught these things.

The essentials that used to be taught on the "vicars and tarts course"?

[Toadstool]

Then why waste a day at Cranwell. Give them a uniform and say, at 2359 you are an officer. On your way.

CG

Perhaps they wanted their day to celebrate their promotion. Much as any Officer would rather have had their graduation parade and ball rather than getting their ranks thrown to them and being told to get on their way.

I was at the College during Covid and all graduating cadets were upset at the mandatory changes due to the virus.

The former WOs don’t wear the bands on their headdress because only Officer Cadets wear them. WOs on the CWOC are not Officer Cadets.

[dctyke]

The essentials that used to be taught on the "vicars and tarts course"?

There are certain things that only Officers know, such as the secret handshake, and they need to be taught these things.

oh we knew that, just led you to think at least you had one thing over us 😉

[MPN11]

oh we knew that, just led you to think at least you had one thing over us 😉
No problem … Officer Cadet in both RN and RAF taught me humility! 😎

[Melchett01]

That politicians are foolish?

Wiggy may have wanted to be a CO but the RAF decided otherwise. He may have wanted to be an AOC but the RAF made the decision to appoint others instead. Wiggy's sponsors may have got him to 2-star but he only got the conciliation prize of a mediocre joint appointment before he limped to 3-star. Neither the RAF or MOD pushed him further but the then Secretary of Defence (the one that told Russia to 'go away') ignored the candidate list for CAS and pushed Wiggy into the job instead.

Outside of being a squadron boss (technically an OC post only), Wiggy's stint as CAS is his first proper command tour. That choice has aged like fine milk.

I would have thought that Tornado Force Commander and Commander British Forces Cyprus would have been command appointments?

[Nil_Drift]

I would have thought that Tornado Force Commander and Commander British Forces Cyprus would have been command appointments?

A further twist in the tale is that he is now the Senior Duty Holder for all aircraft in the RAF but he's never been a Delivery Duty Holder nor an Operating Duty Holder.

In DSA01.2 Chapter 2 available via Gov.uk it says : The ODH and DDH should be able to demonstrate that: a) they have the ability to manage the RtL for which they are accountable by having appropriate authority and influence to implement agreed mitigation, including the necessary budgetary involvement; b) they are suitably qualified and experienced to undertake their delegated responsibilities;

How has he demonstrated his ability for the current post in this regard when the two preceding steps for SDH SQEP have not been trodden?

[alfred_the_great]

A further twist in the tale is that he is now the Senior Duty Holder for all aircraft in the RAF but he's never been a Delivery Duty Holder nor an Operating Duty Holder.

In DSA01.2 Chapter 2 available via Gov.uk it says : The ODH and DDH should be able to demonstrate that: a) they have the ability to manage the RtL for which they are accountable by having appropriate authority and influence to implement agreed mitigation, including the necessary budgetary involvement; b) they are suitably qualified and experienced to undertake their delegated responsibilities;

How has he demonstrated his ability for the current post in this regard when the two preceding steps for SDH SQEP have not been trodden?

we’ve been through this - that entire point of the SDH having a Senior Operator and Senior Engineer is to provide that SQEP.

[Red Line Entry]

we’ve been through this - that entire point of the SDH having a Senior Operator and Senior Engineer is to provide that SQEP.

In addition, Haddon-Cave was clear that these should be dedicated 2-star positions. That is not the case for either post.

[Diff Tail Shim]

That politicians are foolish?

Wiggy may have wanted to be a CO but the RAF decided otherwise. He may have wanted to be an AOC but the RAF made the decision to appoint others instead. Wiggy's sponsors may have got him to 2-star but he only got the conciliation prize of a mediocre joint appointment before he limped to 3-star. Neither the RAF or MOD pushed him further but the then Secretary of Defence (the one that told Russia to 'go away') ignored the candidate list for CAS and pushed Wiggy into the job instead.

Outside of being a squadron boss (technically an OC post only), Wiggy's stint as CAS is his first proper command tour. That choice has aged like fine milk.
He was CO of 903EAW out in Basrah. Group Captain post you will find that was. I know as I was out there when he was.

[dervish]

In addition, Haddon-Cave was clear that these should be dedicated 2-star positions. That is not the case for either post.

I think the recommendation only said "senior rank". With other posts being downgraded maybe these were too?

[RAFEngO74to09]

Latest on D&I from CAS, 1SL and CGS:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6JXEpYSqqk

[RAFEngO74to09]

Coming up live - CAS 1 Feb 03 Committees - UK Parliament (https://committees.parliament.uk/event/17287/formal-meeting-oral-evidence-session/)

[minigundiplomat]

Popcorn at the ready.

[langleybaston]

Popcorn at the ready.

Let us hope the inquisitors are well briefed.

[Stratnumberone]

Yes. .

[Timelord]

So, what questions would we ask CAS if we were on the Defence select committee?

Apart from the obvious training pipeline question.

My starter is; “ What is the NATO minimum flying hours per month for a fast jet pilot and how many RAF fast jet pilots achieve that”.

And if the answer involves synthetic training;

” How many Typhoon training devices reflect the current software and mod state of the aircraft”

[trim it out]

My starter is; “ What is the NATO minimum flying hours per month for a fast jet pilot and how many RAF fast jet pilots achieve that”.

And if the answer involves synthetic training;

” How many Typhoon training devices reflect the current software and mod state of the aircraft”
Is there a NATO FOB prescribing such a currency? If not, should there be as per the budget best effort?

Keeping in mind no two hours are the same, are they quality hours over quantity hours?

We've all got in the sim fires burning doing the perceived important stuff, but how many errors/mistakes are made on start up, take off, landing, shut down for example, that just aren't practiced in the sim yet are inescapable in live flying?

[Atlasisrubbish]

Not a great advert, is he!

[langleybaston]

Dreadful lack of eye contact, looks shifty ...................
Too much hand-waving. Sit on your hands, look them in the eye, take charge for God's sake.

How not to impress in an interview context

Very high blink rate.

Would you buy a car from him?

[Countdown begins]

And he’s the best of the best!
A dark day for a once great RAF.

[langleybaston]

And he’s the best of the best!
A dark day for a once great RAF.

Just picture Mickey Martin, Mike Knight or Tim Thorne or Sandy Wilson or Black Robertson ........ rather a different sort of appearance...................

I cannor bear to watch any more, but its a bit early for a drink.

[Timelord]

There we have it. Everything is great, don’t know what all the fuss is about!

[sycamore]

Simple maths seem to evade them as well......umm,er about 20 ,oh 12...!

[Sky Sports]

Is there any way to watch it on 'catch-up'?

[minigundiplomat]

For balance, Mark Francois was an argument looking for a victim, but it was an atrocious performance riddled with half truths, whataboutery and evasive responses.

The RAF has disintegrated on his watch, and whilst he’s p1ssed about with social experimentation. and pronouns, recruitment, selection and training has imploded, and the focus has been allowed to drift from operational effect and esprit de corp. I note many of the promises he made will be due after he has retired.

He should suffer the ignominy of being removed, rather than allowed to quietly see out his time.

[Timelord]

Is there any way to watch it on 'catch-up'?

via parliament tv. Just Google “house of commons Defence select committee “

[Timelord]

One of many surprising claims was that the front line was fully manned. Really?

[Imagegear]

Also available here:

Parliamentlive.tv - Defence Committee (https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/9fa20243-afc8-4715-a378-fdce2ffb58f3)

IG

[langleybaston]

Also available here:

Parliamentlive.tv - Defence Committee (https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/9fa20243-afc8-4715-a378-fdce2ffb58f3)

IG
WARNING
warching it will spoil your day

[Imagegear]

Liked watching him squirm.

I thought that Knighton was more credible and while trying to keep the wolves away from Wiggy, still managed to retain his composure.

IG

[bspatz]

Delighted to see that the committee went in hard on the highly dubious decision to phase out C130 and replace its tactical role with A400. However, as the committee were particularly focused on SF support, more play could have been made of the wisdom of using a high value asset in high threat environments such as demanded by supporting SF. It would seem you can buy up to 10 C130s for one A400!

[Atlasisrubbish]

I’ll award a knighthood to anyone who can send a link to his similarly poorly thought through Xmas message, with the bottom feeder he had.

[cynicalint]

I can't imagine him tolerating a performance like that from one of his subordinates towards him!

[langleybaston]

I can't imagine him tolerating a performance like that from one of his subordinates towards him!

The problem is, I can. How do such ordinary blokes and blokesses climb the greasy pole so far?

[Jobza Guddun]

The problem is, I can. How do such ordinary blokes and blokesses climb the greasy pole so far?

We can start by looking at the utter clown who appointed him as CAS. (In case I have the authority wrong, I refer to the Def Sec of the day).

[Ken Scott]

It would seem you can buy up to 10 C130s for one A400!

Cost new for a C130J in 2020 around $75m, the RAF paid about £165m per Atlas, so not quite 10:1. I’m sure you could buy cheaper on the secondhand market… the RAF has 14 C130J currently for sale, POA (but the C5 sold to the USMC a few years ago was reportedly $30m).

[Finningley Boy]

We can start by looking at the utter clown who appointed him as CAS. (In case I have the authority wrong, I refer to the Def Sec of the day).
You mean the one who told Putin Shuit uip and go awaay. Frank Spencer with a northern accent!

FB

[ORAC]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/women-cant-fly-f-35-jets-as-helmets-are-too-heavy-raf-chief-admits-d3kxwl8kk

Women can’t fly F-35 jets as helmets are too heavy, RAF chief admits

Women in the RAF cannot fly F-35 Lightning jets because the helmets provided are too heavy, Air Chief Marshal Sir Mike Wigston has admitted.

Wigston told MPs that the RAF had not approved a lighter helmet because of safety fears. He said a more pressing concern was that women were not being trained as pilots, pointing to a “woeful gender diversity” problem in the RAF.

Wigston, who was appearing before the committee on Wednesday, replied: “The lighter helmet that would allow lighter aircrew, so not just women but lighter aircrew, to fly the F-35 (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/blisteringly-fast-f-35-runs-into-raft-of-new-problems-j05q50h5h) . . . we would have challenges in clearing it in safety terms because it does not give the pilot the protection that the other helmet has.

“On a case-by-case basis if a woman came through or a light person came through the flying training scheme and there was an operational benefit for that person to be flying Lightning, then we could make the risk case for flying with a different helmet.”

Tobias Ellwood, who chairs the Commons defence committee , said: “There needs to be a second lighter helmet for females to use.”

Wigston said he would “dearly love to be in that position” and a more “fundamental problem” was a lack of women going through flying training.

However, Kevan Jones, the Labour MP for North Durham, said: “The problem there is you’re reducing your pool down straight away aren’t you? Because if women are lighter, which they generally are, they’re not going to be able to ever fly. The only alternative is you either stop them flying or ask them to go and put some weight on.”

Wigston said women could fly other aircraft, adding: “We would absolutely do a bespoke risk case analysis for that person flying with a different helmet.”

Ellwood said: “There is an American helmet designed for females which is lighter, but they cost a quarter of a million pounds each and we haven’t purchased any because I think there’s some health and safety regulations, UK regs, which prohibit us.”

The lack of women flying F-35s comes amid a backlog in training all pilots, who in some cases have waited up to ten years to fly.

Wigston said improvements had been made and there were fewer than ten people waiting for elementary flying training, down from 150 in 2019. He said the total training time for pilots had been cut from seven years to five.

[RAFEngO74to09]

FOI request got the Byford / Lincoln e-mails on the D&I debacle
20221124 FOI12502 Annex A Final.pdf (whatdotheyknow.com) (https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/912041/response/2176250/attach/4/20221124%20FOI12502%20Annex%20A%20Final.pdf?cookie_passthrou gh=1)

[kaikohe76]

Harry Truman had the sign on his desk saying `The Buck Stops here`. In my opinion I stress, is there not an honorable option the CAS could & likely should take? Just what must be the feeling amongst a RAF personnel right now. Very sad state of affairs & certainly not the RAF I remain proud to have served in.

[Davef68]

Reminded me of a middle ranking Civil Servant rather than a senior military officer.

[PPRuNeUser0157]

CAS gave a very poor performance yesterday to a relatively sympathetic committee. He appeared to be covering for the chain of command between him and Group Captain Lizzie Nicholl (who felt obliged to resign). The FOI emails show clearly who CAS was protecting. So we have a Dentist and Supplier deciding on vital questions of recruiting and training and the RAF has a Personnel Branch (of which Lizzie Nicholl was a member) not involved! Clearly, professionalism was not a consideration. There is only one answer to this disgraceful episode.

[Just This Once...]

Harry Truman had the sign on his desk saying `The Buck Stops here`. In my opinion I stress, is there not an honorable option the CAS could & likely should take? Just what must be the feeling amongst a RAF personnel right now. Very sad state of affairs & certainly not the RAF I remain proud to have served in.

Front page of The Daily Telegraph:

After the revelation, Air Chief Marshal Sir Mike Wigston, head of the RAF, was asked if he had presided over a “lack of integrity at the top”. Defence sources suggested to The Daily Telegraph last night that Sir Mike, who wrote the 2019 Wigston Review into inappropriate behaviour of troops, should be considering his position.

So at least the Defence Secretary got a quick refresher over his corn flakes & coffee this morning.

[Top West 50]

Sleep tight tonight - your Air Farce is awoke

[GeeRam]

I'm surprised that the RAF isn't being done under some false advertising rule for that TV recruiting advert being currently shown that suggests that a female can fly the F-35B........:rolleyes:

[Union Jack]

The problem is, I can. How do such ordinary blokes and blokesses climb the greasy pole so far?
Concur, sorry, quite agree.... Based on his recent performance, II certainly find myself wondering if Group Captain Nicholl would have considered the man himself for entry to Cranwell today. His wokery is borderline beyond belief.

Jack

[Mornington Crescent]

Did my bit in the C20. Am most unimpressed with the current CAS. He says lots of words and makes no sense.

Surely there is a better candidate.

[bspatz]

Cost new for a C130J in 2020 around $75m, the RAF paid about £165m per Atlas, so not quite 10:1. I’m sure you could buy cheaper on the secondhand market… the RAF has 14 C130J currently for sale, POA (but the C5 sold to the USMC a few years ago was reportedly $30m).
Thanks I just grabbed some prices off the internet which were obviously a bit misleading but I still think that Atlas is a HVA and not what we should be risking on SF ops. I was also a bit disappointed that CAS did not seem to understand that the Committee could clearly see what was needed and wanted him to give them the ammunition to go into bat of his behalf. Instead he stuck rigidly to the party line and was unwilling to admit some pretty obvious deficiences.

[WillNorris81]

I'm surprised that the RAF isn't being done under some false advertising rule for that TV recruiting advert being currently shown that suggests that a female can fly the F-35B........:rolleyes:

Women can/do fly the F35, how is that false advertising?

[ExAscoteer2]

I'm surprised that the RAF isn't being done under some false advertising rule for that TV recruiting advert being currently shown that suggests that a female can fly the F-35B........:rolleyes:

The 1950s called. Apparently they want their sexist back.

[muppetofthenorth]

Women can/do fly the F35, how is that false advertising?

The 1950s called. Apparently they want their sexist back.
It came out in committee that the RAF currently only has helmets for larger pilots, and that smaller men and women aren't meeting the minimum weight limits for the aircraft, so actually it may be true that women can't fly the F35 with the RAF...

Is the point I think he was trying to make.
https://twitter.com/haynesdeborah/status/1620804153202339841?t=IcWI3dxZWSLEmYSiK5EU9w&s=19

[Itaintwhatitwas]

Is AM Mayhew's next appointment about to be announced?

[WillNorris81]

There are F35 female pilots, https://www.f35.com/f35/news-and-features/lockheed-martins-first-female-f35-production-and-training-pilot-takes-flight.html

https://www.lex18.com/news/air-guards-first-female-f-35-pilot-is-from-kentucky-completes-inaugural (https://www.f35.com/f35/news-and-features/lockheed-martins-first-female-f35-production-and-training-pilot-takes-flight.html)

The weight minimum I believe is 136lbs (61.7kg) (9.7 stone). I would suggest most women could achieve that.

[Professor Plum]

Will,

Those are F35 Pilots from the USA.

This thread is referring to the RAF.

[Speedywheels]

The word ‘helmet’ is particularly apt to some of the inane, uninformed contributors on this thread.

[Ridger]

CAS gave a very poor performance yesterday to a relatively sympathetic committee

He appeared to have no idea what's going on at all. Are we sure it was CAS and not a surprised stunt double? That reminded of the Guy Goma interview on the BBC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6Y2uQn_wvc

[Timelord]

For those that choose to comment without watching CAS’s testimony, he said this:

The current UK F35 helmet is not suitable for people below a certain weight.
There is a helmet suitable for lighter people but it does not meet UK standards of head protection. The US use this helmet for lighter people.
Should a light person be streamed F35 the UK would consider buying the lighter ( I think he said £250,000) helmet and “assess the risk “ to that individual, but that problem had not yet arisen.

I’m rather proud of the way I did that without a single male/ female/he/she!

[NutLoose]

I’m rather proud of the way I did that without a single male/ female/he/she!

What's that then, you mentioned them all, well nearly, you missed out, men proporting to be women, women proporting to be men... need I go on? :}

[Timelord]

What's that then, you mentioned them all, well nearly, you missed out, men proporting to be women, women proporting to be men... need I go on? :}

B***er!
Anyway , good to see the Times on line edition illustrating this story with a picture of a Victor in a museum.

[WillNorris81]

Any info regarding the weight considered “too light” ?

[alfred_the_great]

For those that choose to comment without watching CAS’s testimony, he said this:

The current UK F35 helmet is not suitable for people below a certain weight.
There is a helmet suitable for lighter people but it does not meet UK standards of head protection. The US use this helmet for lighter people.
Should a light person be streamed F35 the UK would consider buying the lighter ( I think he said £250,000) helmet and “assess the risk “ to that individual, but that problem had not yet arisen.

I’m rather proud of the way I did that without a single male/ female/he/she!

perhaps the bigger point is UK safety exceptionalism. Why are we diverging from other operators of the aircraft?

[Not_a_boffin]

Any info regarding the weight considered “too light” ?

According to Nice but Tobias, the weight limit is 5 stone 8lbs (15:15 in the Parliament TV prog).

If that is true - and given that it's Tobias quoting the number, it could be anything - that would probably limit Kylie Minogue from being an F35 Lightning pilot. Not sure most of the other women I know would be under that weight, 78lbs / 36kg or thereabouts.

[GreenXCode]

Thought I heard earlier in the session it was 52 kg. 5 st 8 lb is little more than flying kit or Kylie…

[NutLoose]

According to Nice but Tobias, the weight limit is 5 stone 8lbs (15:15 in the Parliament TV prog).

If that is true - and given that it's Tobias quoting the number, it could be anything - that would probably limit Kylie Minogue from being an F35 Lightning pilot. Not sure most of the other women I know would be under that weight, 78lbs / 36kg or thereabouts.

They would have had to backfill Baders legs with sand to get him up to weight, I would imagine he would have problems then walking. :rolleyes:

So prey tell, I can understand the limit of the bang seat or possibly the aircraft trim at an extreme, but why does the weight of the pilot affect their ability to wear a helmet?, one would assume neck muscles etc would be the main concern or upper body strength or Pilot height would play a more important role.

[ORAC]

I believe it’s to do with the acceleration of the seat at the lower end of the weight scale.

[Not_a_boffin]

Thought I heard earlier in the session it was 52 kg. 5 st 8 lb is little more than flying kit or Kylie…
I know which I'd prefer to get into......

[Chugalug2]

perhaps the bigger point is UK safety exceptionalism.
Indeed, ATG. The elephant in the room that the Committee declined to comment upon, except in passing. It would be better if the 'Chief's' aspiration was to return UK military airfleets to airworthiness rather than to fret upon the diversity of the occupants. What use is that, if their own aircraft kill them without any enemy input? The dire performance before the Defence Committee was an alert to all who care about our defence as to the inadequacy of the RAF leadership. Failing abysmally to fight for the RAF's ability to prevail against future foes, it prefers to set itself a woke agenda instead. That it fails in that regard too is of little consequence to my mind. It's duty is to ensure the future of UK Air Power. The combination of Capability Gaps, permanently grounding entire fleets due to airworthiness failures, failing to train aircrew in an acceptable time frame, ridding us of tactical workhorses such as the Hercules in favour of fewer, bigger, and more expensive aircraft that tactical attrition will make fewer still, makes one wonder if the RAF's purpose, of going to war, has been seriously taken on board.

The RAF was designed as a bureaucracy. Yesterday's hearing showed, if nothing else, that in that aspiration at least it has succeeded. As others have said, a very depressing experience throughout.

[WildRover]

CAS didn't seem to have a grip of anything being discussed. When asked how many Typhoons we had he said 137. He was then pressed on how many are available and of course no answer.

He received questions on why the RAF decided to only order 3 Wedgetails instead of 5. The answer was cost saving which turns out to be £200m. I believe £1.9 billion for 3 and £2.1 billion for 5. Crazy. He was then asked when the fleet would be operational, it took 5 attempts before a vague answer came out.

I won't go on - but absolutely depressing, especially the red face, blinking of eyes and stuttering when he didn't like the questions. Ellwood and Francois knew it too.

[langleybaston]

Please Defence Secretary get rid, and find someone a nice seat in the Lords.
Perhaps sitting with the Bishops ?

[Atlasisrubbish]

Wow, this is one of the only boards I've read where everyone, everyone, is on the same side. If the turkey that is CAS has achieved one thing in his sorry career, it's that he united a whole board.

[biscuit74]

Dear me. Having just seen that, I am appalled. The Air Chief Marshall was nervous, uncertain in his answers and clearly out of his depth in that position. As others have said, his whole demeanour suggested discomfort and uncertainty. Mid level management someone said - hardly even that. In my last company there'd have been a loud bark of 'stop waffling and answer the b**** questions' from the top boss after a few minutes of that.

Where was the emphasis on 'we need more, we need it now, or as soon as' ? Most of that seemed to be excuses for current inadequacies. We are where we are; accept that and move on. To be shown up by a bunch of politicians - for shame !

Having had the pleasure of meeting another VSO recently, I was impressed by the (pleasant) crispness and decsiveness he showed. No waffle. So we still have them, just not right at the top. Something wrong with the selection process. I don't think I'd like to serve in a unit led by that gentleman; too much dither showing. It was said many years ago by one warrior that he'd rather follow someone decisively wrong - at least you know where you are going and hence how to change course!

ACM Wigston - would your guys happily follow you I wonder?

[4mastacker]

Only out of idle curiosity....and at a safe distance.

[Roger the cabin boy]

There are good people coming up: Rich K and Harv are both impressive people, then there are Al Marshall and Phil Robinson - also tremendously impressive. Let’s get through the next couple of months…..

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

As a former Pongo pilot may I say that was the most dismal, unprepared, dithering and embarrassing performance I've ever seen from anyone of Staff rank, let alone a service chief. He clearly hadn't read his briefing notes.

NEO

[mopardave]

I couldn't help but notice the no nonesense old lad in the flasher mac sat over Wigston's right shoulder.......he looked like he wanted to slap his legs and send him to bed........particularly when he was being quizzed about the selection debacle. He didn't even put up a fight for more resources when he had the opportunity to do just that. Not an inspirational leader I'm afraid.

[Imagegear]

Dear me. Having just seen that, I am appalled. The Air Chief Marshall was nervous, uncertain in his answers and clearly out of his depth in that position. As others have said, his whole demeanour suggested discomfort and uncertainty.

Would appear to be an indication that he is more used to mandating objectives from his team rather than being grilled by MP's who know when he is out of step and lying.

​​​​​​​IG

[tucumseh]

I must confess a degree of sympathy for CAS, and for any serving officer who has to appear before that committee of (for the most part) fools. Especially John Spellar, who as a Minister routinely lied to the same committee on the Mull of Kintyre case, prolonging the families’ agony for some years. (e.g. ‘FADEC software is not safety critical’).

And while evasive and unsure of his facts, I don’t think CAS lied outright or dropped his men in it, which was the routine response of a certain predecessor on the same Chinook case. Wigston took the hit, which is his job, when it is clear that most of the RAF’s problems have been building for decades. Had he chosen to, he could have pointed to the fact that at least 3 of the committee members, and many of their predecessors, had been advised of these problems some years ago and done SFA. Not least the Chairman, when a junior Defence Minister from 2017-19.

It was a sh*t show, but there’s far more to it than one man’s poor performance.

[Easy Street]

I couldn't help but notice the no nonesense old lad in the flasher mac sat over Wigston's right shoulder.......he looked like he wanted to slap his legs and send him to .

The "disastra memes" account on Instagram claims that said gentleman was a Vulcan pilot and Linton instructor. He didn't look impressed!

[Timelord]

I must confess a degree of sympathy for CAS, and for any serving officer who has to appear before that committee of (for the most part) fools. Especially John Spellar, who as a Minister routinely lied to the same committee on the Mull of Kintyre case, prolonging the families’ agony for some years. (e.g. ‘FADEC software is not safety critical’).


It was a sh*t show, but there’s far more to it than one man’s poor performance.

I agree. It was like the end of “Animal Farm” where you eventually can’t tell the difference between the humans and the animals. Same with the politicians and VSOs. Very depressing.

[Bengo]

I agree. It was like the end of “Animal Farm” where you eventually can’t tell the difference between the humans and the animals. Same with the politicians and VSOs. Very depressing.


ALL peacetime VSO in all civilian controlled militaries are politicians. They cannot be anything else: They are appointed by, and ultimately report to politicians: The wielders of ultimate power, deliverers of money and givers of orders. Political acceptability to left, right and centre is an essential quality for progress up the greasy pole.

N

[Timelord]

True, but he is at the top of the greasy pole. What has he got to lose by saying, “Yes we are too small”, “yes I would have preferred 5 E7” etc

[OldnDaft]

Surely the question now needs to be Should Wigston survive the onslaught?

[WillNorris81]

I’ve worked with him twice, once when he was OC 12(Bomber) Squadron and the second time when he was OC 903 Expeditionary Air Wing and Sergeant Duane 'Baz' Barwood was tragically killed. He was respected, he worked hard and he looked after his troops.
Anyone else here know him directly?

[Timelord]

I’ve worked with him twice, once when he was OC 12(Bomber) Squadron and the second time when he was OC 903 Expeditionary Air Wing and Sergeant Duane 'Baz' Barwood was tragically killed. He was respected, he worked hard and he looked after his troops.
Anyone else here know him directly?

Yes, I did at around the same period, and as I have said earlier in this thread, at that level he was good value. Sad to say though he has not done a good job at the top. His time spend writing “The Wigston Report” on diversity etc seems to have caused him to forget, or at least not publicly talk about actual, you know, fighting,

[4mastacker]

As a former Pongo pilot may I say that was the most dismal, unprepared, dithering and embarrassing performance I've ever seen from anyone of Staff rank, let alone a service chief. He clearly hadn't read his briefing notes.

NEO

This was the Royal Navy facing the same committee the day before. Compare and contrast.

Defence Select Committee 31st January (https://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/71807a05-d546-42f0-8069-89a16953ae4e)

[WillNorris81]

Yes, I did at around the same period, and as I have said earlier in this thread, at that level he was good value. Sad to say though he has not done a good job at the top. His time spend writing “The Wigston Report” on diversity etc seems to have caused him to forget, or at least not publicly talk about actual, you know, fighting,

I agree, I was very disappointed when I watched him grilled at the Select Committee, he is a clever man, what on earth was he thinking trying to bluff them.

[tucumseh]

This was the Royal Navy facing the same committee the day before. Compare and contrast.

Defence Select Committee 31st January (https://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/71807a05-d546-42f0-8069-89a16953ae4e)

Indeed.

Type 32. Admiral understands Defence funding and the Acquisition Cycle, most of the committee don't. He seems incredulous, and rightly so, that anyone would ask such a question on expenditure. It's very difficult for him to pitch his replies at the correct level. It's like asking him to brief a class of 5-year olds.

Francois and Spellar confirm their status as complete to$$ers, who haven't been paying attention to anything said on defence in all their years trousering expenses. But Doogan asks a good question on T31/32 (and gets a decent answer) as you'd expect from someone who has actually been an MoD employee and been exposed to these things as a sprog.

[biscuit74]

I’ve worked with him twice, once when he was OC 12(Bomber) Squadron and the second time when he was OC 903 Expeditionary Air Wing and Sergeant Duane 'Baz' Barwood was tragically killed. He was respected, he worked hard and he looked after his troops.
Anyone else here know him directly?

I am glad to hear that he was good at that. It sounds like he has got out of his depth since - either by being promoted into - and accepting - a post the needs of which he does not really understand or by presuming himself to be capable at a level he is not. It happens. A shame,because I think his service desperately needs better right now - the quickest solution would be for one of his peers to mentor him, ASAP and strongly. That's what would have happened in my outfit. Does the military system allow for that?

[snapper41]

Dear me. Having just seen that, I am appalled. The Air Chief Marshall was nervous, uncertain in his answers and clearly out of his depth

But he can probably spell his rank correctly 🙄

[Sky Sports]

I’ve worked with him twice, once when he was OC 12(Bomber) Squadron and the second time when he was OC 903 Expeditionary Air Wing and Sergeant Duane 'Baz' Barwood was tragically killed. He was respected, he worked hard and he looked after his troops.
Anyone else here know him directly?

‘was respected’…..I think you’ve hit the nail on the head there!

[Auxtank]

Come on Chaps - non Wings here - what the hell is going on?

Time for a bally clean out, what?

What's all this equality nonsense.
Fast Jet Jockeys need to have the Stuff.

[1771 DELETE]

I’ve worked with him twice, once when he was OC 12(Bomber) Squadron and the second time when he was OC 903 Expeditionary Air Wing and Sergeant Duane 'Baz' Barwood was tragically killed. He was respected, he worked hard and he looked after his troops.
Anyone else here know him directly?
No, never met him but from everything i can see he is now operating at least 4 levels above his ability. If he will not do the right and fall upon his sword he should be fired..

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

But he can probably spell his rank correctly 🙄

Is that really the best you can come up with? He was totally out of his depth and should be removed.

[212man]

Is that really the best you can come up with? He was totally out of his depth and should be removed.
I assume you actually read the post Snapper replied to?

[artee]

No, never met him but from everything i can see he is now operating at least 4 levels above his ability. If he will not do the right and fall upon his sword he should be fired..

Sounds like the Peter Principle in action:

The Peter principle is a concept in management (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Management) developed by Laurence J. Peter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurence_J._Peter), which observes that people in a hierarchy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierarchy) tend to rise to "a level of respective incompetence": employees are promoted based on their success in previous jobs until they reach a level at which they are no longer competent (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competence_(human_resources)), as skills in one job do not necessarily translate to another.

[biscuit74]

But he can probably spell his rank correctly 🙄
True snapper, well spotted. Though I'd hope we get more for the very considerable salary he gets paid by us than the ability to spell his own title. On that showing, I'm not convinced !

The Navy staff in a similar situation seemed better prepared, more inclined to push back at off-topic and silly questions.

[Tigger_Too]

Article by Allison Pearson in the Telegraph this week is well worth a read:
(and my name is not Jonny. Close, but not Jonny!)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/02/02/britain-becoming-woke-defend/

[4everAD]

Article by Allison Pearson in the Telegraph this week is well worth a read:
(and my name is not Jonny. Close, but not Jonny!)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/02/02/britain-becoming-woke-defend/
Can't really argue with the thrust of the article and I agree 100% with the last line.

[Chugalug2]

Article by Allison Pearson in the Telegraph this week is well worth a read:
(and my name is not Jonny. Close, but not Jonny!)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/02/02/britain-becoming-woke-defend/

For those who don't have a subscription to the Daily Telegraph, here is the linked article :-Britain is becoming too woke to defend itselfThe RAF stands accused of discriminating against white men. It makes you want to cry with shame

The Daily Telegraph
3 Feb 2023
ALLISON PEARSON FOLLOW Allison Pearson on Twitter @Allisonpearson READ MORE at telegraph.co.uk/ opinion

https://i.prcdn.co/img?regionKey=dLqdTXALl3jUyKbUsctL2A%3d%3d Not much of my youth was misspent, although I did for a time go out with Jonny, a trainee pilot at RAF Cranwell. If you want to know what a near-death experience feels like, try riding pillion on a motorbike behind a man who will soon be in command of a jet that can reach 1,100 mph in a little over two minutes from take-off.

Going into a corner, we went so low I could have picked up the cigarette butts lying on the road. I’m not sure what centripetal or gyroscopic forces kept us aloft; I do know that I had complete confidence in the reflexes of my RAF chap.

Actually, there weren’t many corners. Just miles of arrow-straight Lincolnshire roads, ideal for Jonny to get some practice breaking the motorbike land-speed record with a squealing blonde in tow.

All of the guys in his Cranwell intake were from the same breed. Truth is, you could probably have picked them out at junior school. They have a different relationship with fear than most mortals – respectful, but undaunted – and their hand-eye co-ordination is second to none.

It needed to be. Soon they would be up above the clouds, learning how to eliminate the enemy while creating a sonic boom. Mach the Knife.

Would Jonny and his flying band of brothers be picked to serve their country today? They would still have all the necessary attributes except, that is, two X chromosomes and non-indigenous origins.

I guess if Jonny were prepared to say that he self-identified as Joanne and started wearing heels and a frock then he might still make the cut. Trouble is, Jonny and his kind would rather cut off their own balls with a breadknife than pander to such progressive idiocy.

Nature’s warriors are physically strong, clear-sighted, usually male and, therefore, unlikely to be badly shaken by the news that the British Armed Forces are “predominantly made up of white men”.

Seriously, who thinks that’s a bad thing? Well, Air Chief Marshal Sir Mike Wigston for one. Under his command, the RAF disgracefully stands accused of discriminating against 160 white men in an attempt to meet “aspirational diversity targets”.

In November 2020, Group Capt Elizabeth Nicholl was placed in charge of recruiting more women and ethnic minorities into the service. She quit after finding “around 160 cases of positive discrimination”. Good for her.

When the defence of our nation is actively undermined by the wishfulthinking and woke priorities of Human Resources, you know we are in big trouble. A 5ft 4in female may speak Gujarati and tick a box, but she simply does not have the aerobic capacity or the weight necessary to be a fighter pilot. If you think that’s unfair, take it up with God.

Plus, you don’t give someone an £88.8million piece of kit to fly because they’ll look diverse in a recruitment poster.

In the Oscar-nominated Top Gun: Maverick, the squadron has acquired one female member, Phoenix, but women fighter pilots are still rare. They probably always will be.

It is outrageous to try to fix what Sir Mike calls “a woeful gender diversity” problem in the RAF by excluding all the Oscars and Alexanders who have dreamt of being pilots since they were small boys.

On summer evenings, Jonny used to take me on the bike to a pub in the Wolds. On the wall behind the bar was a montage of black-and-white photographs grown sepia-toned with age: wonderful faces of pilots and air-crew who had drained their last pint there before heading to the nearby airfield to take off and do battle with Hitler’s Luftwaffe.

They were white and male, but Death did not discriminate against them. A pilot considered himself old if he made it to 25.

Eighty years later, the RAF is accused of discriminating against the great-grandsons of those men. How dare they?

The country for which so many gave their lives has lost its mind and busily enfeebles itself to the delight of its enemies. It makes you want to cry with shame.

Air Chief Marshal Wigston should resign with immediate effect.

[pr00ne]

Utter trash from the DT worthy of the Mail or Express.

[idle bystander]

Utter trash from the DT worthy of the Mail or Express.
Pretty much par for the course for that woman and that paper.

[Nil_Drift]

Anyone else here know him directly?
Yes I did, when he was ACAS and I worked on the same floor plate in MOD MB.
He was utterly grey in his personality, he would smile at me but didn't seem to know how to interact with other humans. As he was in civvies all the time [as I was] I didn't even know who he was until months later.
When you had people like Rocky Rochelle visiting, a major whirlwind of personality and character, Mike Wigston by contrast became a nobody.

[Union Jack]

Yes I did, when he was ACAS and I worked on the same floor plate in MOD MB.
He was utterly grey in his personality, he would smile at me but didn't seem to know how to interact with other humans. As he was in civvies all the time [as I was] I didn't even know who he was until months later.
When you had people like Rocky Rochelle visiting, a major whirlwind of personality and character, Mike Wigston by contrast became a nobody.
An interesting contrast - Rocky Rochelle and Wokey Wigston....:hmm:

Jack

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Pretty much par for the course for that woman and that paper.
"I once dated a baby pilot 30 years ago and therefore am entitled to an opinion". Nearly as good as their "I failed OASC for leadership qualities but would have been a pilot if I wasn't white and male" article....

Utter trash

[langleybaston]

I have re-read the article having rescued it from recycling. Without being a Tory [every party other than Green and Monster Raving Loony has either received my vote, or received serious consideration] I have been a D Tel reader fror over 60 years. It could just be because my wife "does the crossword" every day ........ the cryptic, and others. She finishes them most days.

I opine that the standard of content has gone sharply down the plughole in a short time. Not only typos but mammoth length sentences with random punctuation, but also no sub-editing or proofing. The journalism has now joined the race to the bottom, and the article referred to above was just silly. The author had a valid point ruined by a fatuous approach and shrill opinion.

As long as the British public are allowed to express judgement on a free press being silly, we remain a democracy.

E & OE

[Canadian Break]

Yes - I worked with (not for) him at the same time as you did Will Norris. He seemed a nice enough guy - but certainly not as good (IMHO) as you seem to remember. It took an officer who was not even in his EAW to "suggest" that we had a GR 4 overfly the aircraft as the Sgt's coffin was carried onto the repatriation aircraft. "Good idea but I don't think we can arrange that"! Luckily I worked for "POD" (those that know - know) who was back at Al Udeid and so I put the issue to him personally at one of the weekly briefings I had to give him and it was sorted immediately. I think that Wiggy's nose was put out of joint and that may explain why, as the senior RAF officer at Basra COB, he left me hanging out to dry when an army 1* came after me because I had given a truthful answer to his 2* boss'. So, all in all, nice bloke but far too political to make a decision that may be considered "controversial"! Would I have followed him? Not even out of curiosity!

[KPax]

I was in the Tower when this was being planned. I know first hand what went on behind the scenes to make the flypast happen without certain people knowing. There was a meeting every Friday with the various Warrant Officers and the Wg Cdr (C0S) and we had a lot to do with the event happening. Brought a smile and a tear when the GR came down the runway at exactly on time.

[oldmansquipper]

https://news.sky.com/story/raf-boss-says-he-is-ready-to-test-the-limit-of-the-law-to-improve-diversity-in-the-force-leaked-transcript-reveals-12851128

So…has he survived?

[[email protected]]

I have re-read the article having rescued it from recycling. Without being a Tory [every party other than Green and Monster Raving Loony has either received my vote, or received serious consideration] I have been a D Tel reader fror over 60 years. It could just be because my wife "does the crossword" every day ........ the cryptic, and others. She finishes them most days.

I opine that the standard of content has gone sharply down the plughole in a short time. Not only typos but mammoth length sentences with random punctuation, but also no sub-editing or proofing. The journalism has now joined the race to the bottom, and the article referred to above was just silly. The author had a valid point ruined by a fatuous approach and shrill opinion.

As long as the British public are allowed to express judgement on a free press being silly, we remain a democracy.

E & OE
LB, a good friend of mine has worked at the DT for many years and can testify to the plummeting standards of journalism there - mostly as a result of trying to save cash and having yes-men editors.

[pr00ne]

Ready to push to the very edge of the law and break the force out of shape to achieve 10% by 2024 and 20% by 2030.”

Wow!

[Finningley Boy]

Ready to push to the very edge of the law and break the force out of shape to achieve 10% by 2024 and 20% by 2030.”

Wow!
I thought the expression was bent out of shape.

FB
PS You're probably right about "break the force" clearly the World turns in a different direction to the way I thought it did. Lifting the ban on the opportunity to serve should be enough, trying to bend, or indeed, break the force, to completely alter the culture and character should not be a priority pursuit.

[Timelord]

Good luck to ACM Knighton sorting this mess out!

[iRaven]

The RAF 'made mistakes over its diversity and inclusion policy'By Dominic Nicholls

Having spent his entire adult life in the RAF, Air Chief Marshal Sir Mike Wigston, the outgoing head of the service, could be forgiven for looking back to highlight past successes.

Far from it. Instead, Sir Mike was quick to warn of the danger of trying to spot one’s legacy “as you walk out the door”.

In conversation with The Telegraph ahead of his retirement next month, it was to the future of the RAF that he looked - even if he will not be in post to reap the rewards.

But he was also willing to reflect on the clouds that have blotted the sky during his tenure.

On his watch, the RAF went into a flat spin over the diversity and inclusion agenda (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/08/26/raf-recruitment-review-claim-diversity-candidates-prioritised/).

He admitted mistakes were made over the recruitment and selection of personnel from under-represented groups.

“We were doing all we could to tackle this intractable problem, which is the lack of diversity in our service,” he said.

Of the 1,500 pilots in the RAF at the end of last year, only 30 were women and around 10 were from ethnic minorities.

Less than two per cent of the 8,500 engineers were from ethnic minorities and six per cent were women.

Only three per cent of the RAF as a whole came from an ethnic minority. Efforts to improve these figures and meet Chief of the Air Staff’s stated aim of having 40 per cent women and 20 per cent of personnel from ethnic minorities by 2030 were “flatlining”.

Mistakes resulted in the resignation of the senior officer responsible for recruiting and selection - something Sir Mike described as a “regrettable” outcome (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/04/06/raf-boss-test-limits-improve-diversity/).

“One of the mistakes we made was that those aspirational goals filtered down into people's personal objectives in-year which they found almost impossible to meet,” he said.

“That put intolerable pressure on them and I've apologised to the recruiting and selection organisation.”

These episodes and the media criticism they drew (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/08/20/raf-prioritised-women-bame-candidates-hit-diversity-targets/) were “tough for me personally”, he said, although he denied ever finding himself at a low ebb.

“You feel that responsibility because you're leading the organisation, it's natural, but no different to anyone else wearing the uniform,” he said.

“The resilience that comes from being a relentless optimist carries you a long way when you're in this position.”


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/05/26/russia-poses-danger-to-uk-sir-mike-wigston-raf/

A disgraceful final act. A semi-repentance when he should have been big enough to admit that he caused significant discrimination within the organisation and resigned. If there was ever clear evidence of systemic racism against white males within the RAF, this was it. The others that blindly followed it should also be leaving right now too, following Wokeston’s latest admittance. Those mentioned in these FOI emails are a good starting point:

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/912041/response/2176250/attach/4/20221124%20FOI12502%20Annex%20A%20Final.pdf?cookie_passthrou gh=1

Quite rightly, the Nuremberg Defence of “I was only following orders” has legal precedent for being rejected and those that carried out the CAS’s direction should also be censured and held to account for one of the RAF’s unfinest hours.

[alfred_the_great]

Oh please “systematic racism against white males” - a simple look at the numbers demonstrates how wrong you are snowflake.

[langleybaston]

Oh please “systematic racism against white males” - a simple look at the numbers demonstrates how wrong you are snowflake.

The numbers demonstrate nothing of the sort ........... unless the various minorities are being rejected after applying, the proportions merely illustrate a "coalition of the willing" ........ the proportions coming forward to join. I assume the RAF does not want the unwilling.

Possible exceptions which could have been pleaded in evidence are the lack of women aircrew, and the lack of very senior women, but these "issues" appear to be being addressed from a very low baseline.

Calling respondents "snowflake" does nothing to promote grown-up discussion of a serious matter.

[langleybaston]

Wigston clearly missed a few English lessons ....................

Less than two per cent

but no different to

See me after school.

[Toadstool]

Looking at the outputs from Ph1 trg at both Halton and Cranwell I can categorically state that there is no systemic racism against white males. Total fallacy.

[navstar1]

Am I missing something here? I know everything is very “Joint” these days but why is the outgoing CAS giving this sort of final interview standing by an aircraft carrier ? I thought this was reserved for Admirals only!

[alfred_the_great]

The numbers demonstrate nothing of the sort ........... unless the various minorities are being rejected after applying, the proportions merely illustrate a "coalition of the willing" ........ the proportions coming forward to join. I assume the RAF does not want the unwilling.

Possible exceptions which could have been pleaded in evidence are the lack of women aircrew, and the lack of very senior women, but these "issues" appear to be being addressed from a very low baseline.

Calling respondents "snowflake" does nothing to promote grown-up discussion of a serious matter.

oh dear - sad at being brought up are we?

demonstrate - with proof - the “systematic racism against white males”…

[aw ditor]

Good point, though presumably some aircraft "carried" have RAF Pilots? Hope you still have that Nav. Bag?

[langleybaston]

oh dear - sad at being brought up are we?

demonstrate - with proof - the “systematic racism against white males”…

Post 393 originated the assertion, and I was not the author. He wrote "systemic" not "systematic" by the way.

I would be happy to discuss the merits of my point, but not someones else's.

[iRaven]

Errr, I think you’ll find the Recruiting System at large last year was racist against white males - read the FOI link that clearly states that and what was being directed. Also, in recent years the honours lists and promotion lists do not appear to have represented, by proportion, the actual demographics of the Service. Now, you can call me all the names you like old fruit if you can’t handle the truth and it makes you feel better. :cool:

A system that does not consider race, that selects solely on merit, is the only way to go. But then again, you have to put up with the results it gives rather than some sort of social experiment that the Wokemeisters seems to want to have.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Most Western militaries are facing the same challenges. The reality is the traditional recruitment pool of 19 to 25 year old white males are becoming a smaller and smaller proportion of the population. In addition they have a range of career choices that are much greater than 30 years ago. In addition it is IMO important that the military broadly speaking, represents the general population.

For all those reasons militaries have to appeal to broader segment of the population. The problem is “leaders” that want instant results so they look good for their bosses. Exhibit 1 is ACM Wigston. Instead of taking a wholistic long term approach to identifying what actually works for attracting and retaining a diverse military, they game the system with quotas and other short term work arounds

The ultimate irony is the only senior officer who showed some principle and a spine was a female Group Capt who resigned rather than be complicit in this complete abdication of command authority.

[Atlasisrubbish]

oh dear - sad at being brought up are we?

demonstrate - with proof - the “systematic racism against white males”…

very poor interpersonal skills. Bad behaviour should never warrant a response. Alfy , you need to grow up, chum.

[langleybaston]

very poor interpersonal skills. Bad behaviour should never warrant a response. Alfy , you need to grow up, chum.
What was the bad behaviour please?

[oldmansquipper]

Latest ‘no ****, Sherlock’ moment…from the meejah machine.

Wiggy thinks Vlad is a very nasty man, and could be vindictive if he loses in Ukraine.

4FS!

Did the Air Marshall think Vlad was just going to roll over in the face of the Air Staffs self righteous inclusivity onslaught?

….And while we’re at it, how did his ‘One Priority’ of sorting out MFT go before he/him/it stepped down? I Haven't heard

[ACW599]

….And while we’re at it, how did his ‘One Priority’ of sorting out MFT go before he/him/it stepped down? I Haven't heard

At the Landowner's Day at the secret Shropshire helicopter base last week, the general feeling was that if you graduated from IOT today you wouldn't make the front line in under five years.

[iRaven]

Big Pistons Forever - spot on. The strategic impatience of wanting 40% female and 20% non-white by 2030 was exactly the problem. It was also a totally arbitrary figure too, with no apparent science behind it (probably made up with the help of the naked 3 star who seemed to have a habit of doing that). But it helped nobody, it discriminated against white men, leaving them angry and without the roles they deserved, and it left a bunch of women and non-white skinned individuals wondering if they were there because of what they looked like, rather than being any good. You can’t treat what you think is discrimination through discrimination, and you can’t fiddle the figures through discriminating against others due to their appearance.

Whilst I agree that the country’s make up by ethnic appearance is gradually changing, the other real problem is one of culture. The senior leaders that set up these ‘targets’ failed to recognise that. Sadly, we live in a society where girls still have pink bedrooms painted for them with My Little Pony in the corner - is it any wonder why 75% of UK horse riders are women, but less than 10% are general aviation pilots? Further, you need to break into the cultures from the 1st and 2nd generation immigrant communities that value roles such as Lawyers, Doctors, Business and celebrity over that of military service to your adopted country. Only when you have fixed the culture, which is not for the RAF to fix, will you stand a chance of having a military service that reflects more modern society.

Oh, on the wider matter, the Armed Forces are also systemically discriminatory in 2 other areas - age and health. Both for very good reason given the nature of the military role. Those are allowed under UK Law, but discrimination by appearance is not, as there is no valid reason to do so. But all said, systemic discrimination can be a good thing and also a bad thing. It is certainly not a term only to be banded about by enraged activists and so-called ‘snow flakes’.

[langleybaston]

Big Pistons Forever - spot on. The strategic impatience of wanting 40% female and 20% non-white by 2030 was exactly the problem. It was also a totally arbitrary figure too, with no apparent science behind it (probably made up with the help of the naked 3 star who seemed to have a habit of doing that). But it helped nobody, it discriminated against white men, leaving them angry and without the roles they deserved, and it left a bunch of women and non-white skinned individuals wondering if they were there because of what they looked like, rather than being any good. You can’t treat what you think is discrimination through discrimination, and you can’t fiddle the figures through discriminating against others due to their appearance.

Whilst I agree that the country’s make up by ethnic appearance is gradually changing, the other real problem is one of culture. The senior leaders that set up these ‘targets’ failed to recognise that. Sadly, we live in a society where girls still have pink bedrooms painted for them with My Little Pony in the corner - is it any wonder why 75% of UK horse riders are women, but less than 10% are general aviation pilots? Further, you need to break into the cultures from the 1st and 2nd generation immigrant communities that value roles such as Lawyers, Doctors, Business and celebrity over that of military service to your adopted country. Only when you have fixed the culture, which is not for the RAF to fix, will you stand a chance of having a military service that reflects more modern society.

Oh, on the wider matter, the Armed Forces are also systemically discriminatory in 2 other areas - age and health. Both for very good reason given the nature of the military role. Those are allowed under UK Law, but discrimination by appearance is not, as there is no valid reason to do so. But all said, systemic discrimination can be a good thing and also a bad thing. It is certainly not a term only to be banded about by enraged activists and so-called ‘snow flakes’.

Marvellous, I wish that I could have put that together.

Be prepared for being called either a gammon, a terf or a snowflake, dinosaur etc.

[[email protected]]

Improve the terms and conditions, improve the woeful accommodation, make a career in the military attractive again instead of purgatory, fix the flying training system and stop the senior officer career agendas blighting service peoples lives - then we might not have a recruiting problem at all and can again choose on merit rather than quota.

[Jobza Guddun]

Improve the terms and conditions, improve the woeful accommodation, make a career in the military attractive again instead of purgatory, fix the flying training system and stop the senior officer career agendas blighting service peoples lives - then we might not have a recruiting problem at all and can again choose on merit rather than quota.

Agree completely Crab, however we can't afford most of that!

[dctyke]

I don’t know if this has been on before, not sure where to place it.

The official statistics of the UK Regular Forces have been disclosed as of 1 January 2023, shedding light on the rank structure within the Royal Navy, Royal Marines, Army, and Royal Air Force.The UK Regular Forces, as of 1 January 2023, comprise a total of 143,558 full-time service personnel across the Royal Navy, Royal Marines, Army, and the Royal Air Force.

Officers, who comprise 28,017 of the personnel, are distributed across several ranks within each service:


OF-9/OF-10: Total 7 (Navy/Marines: 3, Army: 3, RAF: 1)
OF-8: Total 27 (Navy/Marines: 9, Army: 11, RAF: 7)
OF-7: Total 97 (Navy/Marines: 26, Army: 43, RAF: 28)
OF-6: Total 330 (Navy/Marines: 98, Army: 150, RAF: 82)
OF-5: Total 1,104 (Navy/Marines: 280, Army: 509, RAF: 315)
OF-4: Total 3,877 (Navy/Marines: 1,100, Army: 1,685, RAF: 1,092)
OF-3: Total 8,078 (Navy/Marines: 1,956, Army: 4,134, RAF: 1,988)
OF-2: Total 10,109 (Navy/Marines: 2,322, Army: 4,407, RAF: 3,380)
OF-1/OF (D): Total 4,388 (Navy/Marines: 1,133, Army: 2,167, RAF: 1,088)

Other Ranks, forming a significant portion with 115,541 personnel, are divided as follows within each service:


OR-9: Total 2,832 (Navy/Marines: 683, Army: 1,255, RAF: 894)
OR-8: Total 4,055 (Navy/Marines: 498, Army: 3,557, RAF: N/A)
OR-7: Total 9,941 (Navy/Marines: 2,598, Army: 5,130, RAF: 2,213)
OR-6: Total 15,946 (Navy/Marines: 3,925, Army: 7,600, RAF: 4,421)
OR-4: Total 23,770 (Navy/Marines: 6,218, Army: 11,630, RAF: 5,922)
OR-3: Total 12,720 (Navy/Marines: 777, Army: 11,788, RAF: 155)
OR-1/OR-2: Total 55,277 (Navy/Marines: 11,383, Army: 23,990, RAF: 10,904)

These figures are based on the individuals’ paid rank and include full-time service personnel, which include the Nursing Services. However, Full Time Reserve Service (FTRS) personnel, Gurkhas, mobilised Reservists, Military Provost Guard Service (MPGS), Locally Engaged Personnel (LEP), Non Regular Permanent Staff (NRPS), High Readiness Reserve (HRR), and Expeditionary Forces Institute (EFI) personnel are excluded from these numbers.

The Royal Navy and Royal Marines consist of 33,009 personnel, the Army includes 78,059 members, and the RAF is composed of 32,490 personnel

[pr00ne]

Errr, I think you’ll find the Recruiting System at large last year was racist against white males - read the FOI link that clearly states that and what was being directed. Also, in recent years the honours lists and promotion lists do not appear to have represented, by proportion, the actual demographics of the Service. Now, you can call me all the names you like old fruit if you can’t handle the truth and it makes you feel better. :cool:

A system that does not consider race, that selects solely on merit, is the only way to go. But then again, you have to put up with the results it gives rather than some sort of social experiment that the Wokemeisters seems to want to have.

Er, how can the recruitment at large last year be seen to be racist against white males when the recruitment figures demonstrably recruited almost exclusively white males?

If a brave female Group Captain had not refused to carry out an illegal order then you might have a case, but she did and therefore you haven’t.

[PPRuNeUser0157]

Post 412 is interesting and statistics tell a story that should always be studied carefully. Wigston's stated aim of 40% women and 20% ethnic minorities by 2030 is not and never was achievable. First, let us look at the female percentage of total strength data:
RN/Marines Army RAF
1 April 1989 (pre-end of Cold War) 3,486 (5%) 6,505 (5%) 6,299 (7%)
1 April 2022 (latest data) 3,500 (10%) 8,060 (10%) 5,130 (15%)

So, in 33 years (when the Armed Forces have more than halved in their manpower totals), each Service has doubled its proportion of females. What data supported Wigston and his team in creating an aim that added a further 25% in 10 years (ie, aim set out in 2020)? I doubt any exists.

Second, data for ethnic minorities is available from 2012 onwards:
RN/Marines Army RAF
1 April 2012 1,230 (3.5%) 10,300 (10%) 770 (2%)
1 April 2022 1,640 (5%) 11,320 (14%) 1,150 (3.5%)

Whilst the RAF data does make uncomfortable reading compared with the other Services, it also shows that Wigston's aim of 20% was never going to be achieved by 2030. Others have commented on the time it takes to engender the idea of "serving your country" and it is perfectly valid - for a recent immigrant family - to not have such immediate thoughts. And current trends are reducing the pool of those wanting to serve: 20% of the UK workforce is foreign-born and 25% of all UK schoolchildren have an immigrant mother (data from "The Spectator" of 20 May 2023).

Wigston and his dentist "Head of Personnel" were ill-informed and too PC in creating this unachieveable aim. Both should have resigned a year ago. The brave female Group Captain who stood up to this nonsense deserves a promotion and a medal (and that will not happen).

[downsizer]

Was it the RAF that set these targets or central government?

[langleybaston]

Army ethnic minority 14%, RAF 3.5%.

Did nobody in authority ask the simple question "why is the army so much more able to recruit them?

The Regiment is not large, but is the part of the RAF with the most similarities to the army [apologoes if that ruffles feathers]............ does it get anywhere near 14%, or more or less 3.5%?

If the airships did not ponder these questions they were idiots even before setting idiotic targets and vowing to discriminate against white males.

[akula]

Army ethnic minority 14%, RAF 3.5%.

Did nobody in authority ask the simple question "why is the army so much more able to recruit them?



The Royal Gurkha Rifles

[PPRuNeUser0157]

415 - There has been a central ( I think CDS) push to improve, but my understanding is that Wigston/Byford pushed even harder (ie, much more than was achieveable).
416 - Cannot answer your point, but here is more detail for 1 April 2022:
RN/Marines Army RAF
Mixed Race 480 1,530 480
Asian 190 3,210 320
Black 880 5,660 280
Other 90 920 70
TOTAL 1,640 11,320 1,150
The Army does recruit significant numbers of Fijian soldiers.

[PPRuNeUser0157]

Further to 417 & 418, the number of Gurkas in the British Army is about 3,400 and the number of Fijians is about 1,300. Clearly, these two special areas of recruitment enhance the Army's diversity stats considerably.

[iRaven]

Er, how can the recruitment at large last year be seen to be racist against white males when the recruitment figures demonstrably recruited almost exclusively white males?

If a brave female Group Captain had not refused to carry out an illegal order then you might have a case, but she did and therefore you haven’t.

Because it had been going on for months/years before Lizzie Nichol resigned. Look at the crowing in this RAF news article about meeting it’s targets: https://www.raf.mod.uk/news/articles/the-raf-has-met-its-government-set-recruitment-targets-for-bame-and-female-individuals/

If you get a certain percentage of variance (ethnicity and sex) across your applicant cadre then you expect that demographic variance to convert and maybe match the intake’s variance too. Otherwise, some sort of systemic actor has been at play to make the output look different than the input (and that system was whistleblown last year by Lizzie). Oddly enough, they ran out of so-called “BAME” (I hate that term) and females after a couple of intakes as there just weren’t the applicants (that was also reported). In fact, much of this has been reported on through various media outlets… here are another couple to go with the others:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/08/20/raf-prioritised-women-bame-candidates-hit-diversity-targets/
https://newseu.cgtn.com/news/2022-08-21/UK-s-Royal-Air-Force-artificially-inflated-its-diversity-numbers-1cF0S0skRjO/index.html

Now, the thing is, if I had a son with a white person’s appearance who had applied for a job that they had dreamed about for years. A young lad who had put their heart and soul into Air Cadets and aviation in general. Then they had tested to be good enough on CBAT, interviews and the hangar exercises - only to be sifted out of the running for a few places because of who they were and what they looked like - I would be bloody furious. The recruitment numbers required the past few years have been suppressed - in fact, Pilot has been closed for months and has only just opened again as mentioned in this thread this weekend: https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/652938-pssssst.html . So with those very few places, with a systemic discriminatory policy in place, what do you think happened to those lads who may have had a better score than the “target” groups that were being recruited against? They would have been sifted out as there were no longer any places left and failed to have been recruited. The numbers being mentioned elsewhere on various forums are of those being recruited being 20-30 a year as the balance of the intake for Pilot will come from UASs and University Bursaries. So the chances of success under a system like that must have been unlikely anyway - but if you were born a boy with a pale complexion, then it was even harder thanks to the discriminatory action that has been reported since 2022 but has been in place since at least 2020 according those reports.

People should be held accountable for ruining young lives and for damaging the good reputation of a Service that has a good history of embracing diversity at a fair an reasonable pace (first black Pilot in 1918 and first woman Pilot in 1952). It really boils my p!ss that this good reputation has been damaged and no one has, yet, been held accountable.

[langleybaston]

Further to 417 & 418, the number of Gurkas in the British Army is about 3,400 and the number of Fijians is about 1,300. Clearly, these two special areas of recruitment enhance the Army's diversity stats considerably.

There are no Gurkas as such ..............

[PPRuNeUser0157]

Thanks, most helpful.

[langleybaston]

Thanks, most helpful.
if you get it wrong they come after you with a cookery ,.......

[artee]

if you get it wrong they come after you with a cookery ,.......

And throw the book at you...

[sycamore]

L-B ,can you explain your #421..?

[langleybaston]

L-B ,can you explain your #421..?

Yes it was an attempt at a light hearted rebuke for mis-speeeling my favourite soldiers, theBrigade of Gurkhas (https://www.army.mod.uk/who-we-are/corps-regiments-and-units/brigade-of-gurkhas/)In retrospect it was rather rude, for which I apologise.

[PPRuNeUser0157]

No need to apologise: spelling error was made!

[downsizer]

Not defending wigston at all, but during my time in recruiting we were told the figures (%s) were being set by government.

[Null Orifice]

It appears to me that Wigston did survive the onslaught! Thread title needs to be amended. :E

[langleybaston]

It appears to me that Wigston did survive the onslaught! Thread title needs to be amended. :E

When the histories are written, he will not come out well, but its a good pension, so sod the poor buggers who suffered and will be suffering from his tenure.

[Clunk60]

He’s certainly brought the RAF into disrepute, which for anyone else would be cause for disciplinary action. History will judge him for his misguidance and illegal actions. He’s already been judged by those way down the food chain who had to follow him.

[langleybaston]

He’s certainly brought the RAF into disrepute, which for anyone else would be cause for disciplinary action. History will judge him for his misguidance and illegal actions. He’s already been judged by those way down the food chain who had to follow him.

Sad, because when we retire we would all wish to be well spoken of.

[minigundiplomat]

Sad, because when we retire we would all wish to be well spoken of.

Sorry LB, but I have zero respect for that man. We all like to poke fun at the commissioned end of the RAF, but I witnessed some amazing talent over my time, which makes it even more mind boggling that such an insipid, hollow and vacuous individual was promoted to that role and allowed to instigate so much damage without being stopped.

[I am not Spartacus]

He’s certainly brought the RAF into disrepute, which for anyone else would be cause for disciplinary action. History will judge him for his misguidance and illegal actions. He’s already been judged by those way down the food chain who had to follow him.

He’d certainly make an interesting chapter in any update of one of my favourite books, “The Psychology of Military Incompetence”….

[madhon]

Sorry LB, but I have zero respect for that man. We all like to poke fun at the commissioned end of the RAF, but I witnessed some amazing talent over my time, which makes it even more mind boggling that such an insipid, hollow and vacuous individual was promoted to that role and allowed to instigate so much damage without being stopped.


​​​​​​​Rather like Berger is destroying Uncle Sam's Misguided Children

[Kimmeros]

Interesting article in today’s DT online (sorry, not allowed to post URLs) re useless white male pilots……

[iRaven]

More evidence of a system (ie. systemic) which discriminated against race (racial discrimination)…

https://news.sky.com/story/raf-recruiters-were-advised-against-selecting-useless-white-male-pilots-to-hit-diversity-targets-12893684

Let’s hope the other miscreants blindly supporting Wokeston are also shown the door as he leaves on Friday (or shortly thereafter). This is a total disgrace and those in the RAF that have encouraged this dreadful racism should be prosecuted under the Equality Act of 2010. As payments have been clearly offered to those affected then it is surely an admission of guilt.

[NutLoose]

He probably has done more to destroy the moral of the RAF than the Luftwaffe ever did..

​​​​​Confidence in the head of the Royal Air Force and his leadership team has halved in the past two years to its lowest-ever level and aviators are at their least happy since records began, a survey has revealed.
​​

The Ministry of Defence's continuous attitude survey of military personnel across the three armed services - a key benchmark of morale - found a mere 18% of aviators had confidence in the senior leadership of the RAF in 2023, sharply down from 36% in 2021.

Barely a quarter (26%) of those surveyed felt the senior leadership team - led by Air Chief Marshal Wigston (https://news.sky.com/story/rafs-three-simultaneous-crises-put-air-chief-marshal-sir-mike-wigston-under-pressure-12680964) - was keen to listen to feedback, while a feeble 15% felt their top bosses understood the impact of changes in the RAF on personnel.

"While attitudes towards RAF (https://news.sky.com/topic/raf-7671) senior leaders rose in 2021, they have fallen markedly in the last two years to their lowest reported levels," the survey said.

This question has been asked annually since 2015.


As a result of these decreases, RAF personnel are now the least positive about their senior leaders compared to the other services."

Overall satisfaction with life in the RAF plummeted nine percentage points to 37% from a year ago - its lowest level since this question was first asked in 2007.

"RAF personnel feel less proud (71%), less engaged (57%) and less valued (26%), according to the findings.
​​​​​​​
https://news.sky.com/story/confidence-in-raf-chief-and-his-leadership-team-hits-rock-bottom-survey-reveals-12894492

[Finningley Boy]

Sorry LB, but I have zero respect for that man. We all like to poke fun at the commissioned end of the RAF, but I witnessed some amazing talent over my time, which makes it even more mind boggling that such an insipid, hollow and vacuous individual was promoted to that role and allowed to instigate so much damage without being stopped.
Ok, this might say more about my own shallowness than anything else, but I've always regarded the armed forces as most likely to attract a certain mind set and outlook. Someone who makes it through from CIO to a frontline Tornado Squadron alone, would, one expect be an entirely different character to that of ACM Sir Mike Wigston? I'm not saying we should expect all senior officers and professional military men to be from a single mould and to tailor fit all expectations. But that Wigston has seemingly made such an effort to embrace what can best be described as radical progressive Liberal thinking, it seems somewhat incompatible with his chosen career. Having said that this effort to be associated with progressive thinking isn't that new, other service chiefs recently, but not all and it certainly isn't an on going trend, have drifted away from the more conservative image of the armed forces of the past, is it all simply about a dearth in sufficient recruitment or accommodating government, indeed civil service, craving to see a society which has no stereotypical images certainly in some professions? Perhaps it is my fashioned thinking from the 1970s and before with a father who served in the second world war?:confused:

FB

[Chugalug2]

If this scandal started and stopped with ACM Wigston it would be of some comfort. Sadly it didn't. It is what happens to any military after prolonged periods of peace, by which I mean without major or World Wars. Instead of leaders being brought to the high command out of necessity, career seekers bring themselves, often with some agenda or other but always with a single minded determination to make it at the cost of everyone else. Shortcuts, bullying, and downright lies achieve what the lack of leadership cannot. The cost is invariably paid by subordinates, usually at one star or below. Hence these unfortunate male candidates who never made it to IOC, but even more tragically those who died in avoidable air accidents because the mandated airworthiness regulations were subverted and suborned on the orders of other VSOs from the Star Chamber.

The cost in blood and treasure is scandal enough, but it pales in the future cost of trying (and failing?) to gain Air Superiority from a rival hostile air power with a lack of airworthiness riddling our Air Fleets. Someone suggested a future engineer CAS, which would be a great start. Whatever race, creed, or sexual classification of future air crew, it will be of secondary importance to the lack of airworthiness suffered by our aircraft.

The leadership of the Royal Air Force has utterly failed the Service and the Nation. Reform is urgent. It should start with the removal of Air Regulation and Accident Investigation from the maw of the MOD/RAF (and each other). Only then can the long journey to reform commence.

[iRaven]

Says it all really. Wokeston, you have simply been the worst CAS ever. You should have done the decent thing and resigned last summer. Look below what YOU have done to the RAF from the AFCAS 2023 results.

Thank God we have Sir Rich coming. I have so much hope that he will reverse and re-boot some of the awful things that you and your naked 3-star did. At least Sir Rich is starting at rock bottom; it can’t get any worse from this point onwards!


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1170x180/img_1170_67afd003d3bebe4c2b06343d70b6788439deeb50.jpeg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1170x546/img_1171_6be5348f115c4d82ca6c4dab38060b52d1eb0f13.jpeg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1170x729/img_1172_de0e952c0053caa1c7aa8c29891dd37f75236f83.jpeg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1170x881/img_1173_09bfebb85578a64fbd929cb28b2697b0adf3e683.jpeg
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[RAFEngO74to09]

For those who haven't found it, here is a link to the Front Page Summary of 2023 AFCAS Report.

AFCAS Front Page (publishing.service.gov.uk) (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1159665/Armed_Forces_Continuous_Attitude_Survey_2023_Main_Report.pdf )

Having left the Service 13.5 years ago, I was absolutely staggered at how bad some of the stats are - certainly not how I would have rated my own situation at the time I left.

For instance:

Satisfaction with Service Life in General: only 52% for Officers

Satisfaction with their job in general: 56%

RAF personnel satisfied with the standard of major equipment: 34%

RAF personnel satisfied with the availability of major equipment: 35%

RAF personnel that agree change is managed well: 17% - not really surprised at this one having gone through several reviews / drawdowns / re-orgs in 20+ years in posts above unit level when the last major change wasn't even fully implemented before the next started.

Attitudes towards RAF senior leaders:
- Keen to listen to subordinates' feedback: 26%
- Communicate decisions: 25%
- Understand the impact of change on personnel: 15%

Confidence in the leadership of the RAF has halved in the last 2 years: 36% > 18% now - lowest since the question was first asked 8 years ago

Satisfaction with pay has returned to the lowest level ever: Officers 42% / ORs 29% / Overall 31%

Satisfaction with allowances down 19% in 2 years to from 57% to 39%

[alfred_the_great]

If this scandal started and stopped with ACM Wigston it would be of some comfort. Sadly it didn't. It is what happens to any military after prolonged periods of peace, by which I mean without major or World Wars. Instead of leaders being brought to the high command out of necessity, career seekers bring themselves, often with some agenda or other but always with a single minded determination to make it at the cost of everyone else. Shortcuts, bullying, and downright lies achieve what the lack of leadership cannot. The cost is invariably paid by subordinates, usually at one star or below. Hence these unfortunate male candidates who never made it to IOC, but even more tragically those who died in avoidable air accidents because the mandated airworthiness regulations were subverted and suborned on the orders of other VSOs from the Star Chamber.

The cost in blood and treasure is scandal enough, but it pales in the future cost of trying (and failing?) to gain Air Superiority from a rival hostile air power with a lack of airworthiness riddling our Air Fleets. Someone suggested a future engineer CAS, which would be a great start. Whatever race, creed, or sexual classification of future air crew, it will be of secondary importance to the lack of airworthiness suffered by our aircraft.

The leadership of the Royal Air Force has utterly failed the Service and the Nation. Reform is urgent. It should start with the removal of Air Regulation and Accident Investigation from the maw of the MOD/RAF (and each other). Only then can the long journey to reform commence.

the single biggest blocker to aviation innovation (akin to the rapid activity the Ukrainians are going through) are “airworthiness regulations”.

I imagine most of our combat fatalities will come from poorly prepared pilots unable to think and aviate outside a “safe” environment.

[Chugalug2]

the single biggest blocker to aviation innovation (akin to the rapid activity the Ukrainians are going through) are “airworthiness regulations”.

I imagine most of our combat fatalities will come from poorly prepared pilots unable to think and aviate outside a “safe” environment.

You have expressed these sentiments before, atg, so I suspect we shall simply go on navigating around the same old buoy to little or no effect. Let's just agree that to win wars you have to train hard in peace. There is no training value to your aircraft spontaneously exploding following AAR. There is no training value in not being warned of your SSR failing, leaving you exposed to a blue on blue strike. There is no training value in two identical aircraft colliding in poor vis having extinguished illegally fitted strobes that would otherwise blind them. There is no training value in not fitting Explosion Suppressant Foam into a tactical transport leaving it open to being felled by a single round. There is no training value in rendering an ejection seat certain to fail by ordering an illegal in situ uncoupling and recoupling of its drogue shackle. There is no training value in granting a knowingly grossly unairworthy aircraft an RTS, leading to an inevitable predictable tragic outcome.

What 'innovations' did these deliberately VSO directed actions achieve? If you mean that in war rules and regulations may be secondary to military necessity, then we are in violent agreement! If intervening in a fire fight by clinging to the outside of an attack helicopter to enable wounded to be withdrawn, so be it. Such is war. Ukraine is at war. That is why they 'innovate' as you put it. We are at peace and need to preserve our precious aircrew and aircraft as much as possible for going to war. We also need to ensure that the list of airworthiness related fatal air accidents listed above are avoided by ensuring that our aircraft are airworthy. An unairworthy air force going to war will not fare well at all. All that has to go hand in hand with realistic peace time training. Not an easy mix, but throwing the baby out with the bathwater is not the answer. What is needed is leadership, the elephant in the room conspicuous by its absence today.

This is not thread drift, this is the same issue as highlighted by this thread, the scandal of poor and incompetent leadership in the RAF's High Command.

[PPRuNeUser0157]

Wigston was assisted in his endeavours by his dentist, whose part-time job is "Head of Personnel": joking of course.

[BEagle]

This is the RAF I joined.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67L0jckhGFo

Until something as appealing is restored for today's youngsters, I can't see applicants falling over themselves to join, particularly given the woeful state of pilot training.

[dervish]

the single biggest blocker to aviation innovation (akin to the rapid activity the Ukrainians are going through) are “airworthiness regulations”..

After all these years, still no clue.

[Asturias56]

"It is what happens to any military after prolonged periods of peace, by which I mean without major or World Wars. Instead of leaders being brought to the high command out of necessity, career seekers bring themselves, often with some agenda or other but always with a single minded determination to make it at the cost of everyone else. "

Which is why when most big wars occur most of the So's are fired within 6-12 months in any armed service, anywhere. And they're replaced by people at least one, sometimes two generations, younger

The skills needed to fight a war are different from those need to "administer" - determination, willingness to accept risks, ability to concentrate on one aim........... none of those get you anywhere in peacetime

[Union Jack]

"It is what happens to any military after prolonged periods of peace, by which I mean without major or World Wars. Instead of leaders being brought to the high command out of necessity, career seekers bring themselves, often with some agenda or other but always with a single minded determination to make it at the cost of everyone else. "

Which is why when most big wars occur most of the So's are fired within 6-12 months in any armed service, anywhere. And they're replaced by people at least one, sometimes two generations, younger

The skills needed to fight a war are different from those need to "administer" - determination, willingness to accept risks, ability to concentrate on one aim........... none of those get you anywhere in peacetime
An interesting quotation - it would be very useful to know how your comments relate to your own service?

Jack

[RAFEngO74to09]

Another day - another Sky News headline rubbing it in!

(1) Deborah Haynes on Twitter: "NEW: Scandal-hit Red Arrows perform flypast with a soon-to-be-scrapped-despite-being-vital C-130 + 2x Typhoon jets to mark exit of Air Chief Marshal Sir Mike Wigston & entrance of Air Chief Marshal Sir Richard Knighton as head of @RoyalAirForce this morning. Via @frazeratsky https://t.co/VoAVsWpIWw" / Twitter

[NutLoose]

So when he is gone does this mean the other bunch off lemmings will still be there, or can his replacement help them over the cliff?

[esscee]

"And it is goodbye from him" (Wigston) this morning. Many will be hoping that the bottom of the barrel has been reached and onwards and upwards, but is it too late?

[NRU74]

This is the RAF I joined......

Beags,
Thanks for the video - I joined the 'knife and fork course' at S Cerney in 1961 but I cannot identify any of the cadets - some of them must have gone to V Force or Transports, and they must have all been about my age !

[sycamore]

That was the short course...the full course included `the spoon`...
`Once heard at the dining table in an OM,,`Peas and beans are not Officers vegetables``

[Woodsy2417]

That damning AFCAS survey is surely the collective verdict on Wigston and his three year term. So sad for those who have a care for the RAF.

[Wyntor]

So when he is gone does this mean the other bunch off lemmings will still be there, or can his replacement help them over the cliff?
I sincerely hope that Rich Knighton is spending this weekend implementing a cleaning house plan - starting with the Dentist.

[Asturias56]

An interesting quotation - it would be very useful to know how your comments relate to your own service?

Jack

the quotation was from Chug - whose record on documenting and calling out deficiencies stands pretty solid I think.

The statement that there is a clear out in almost all armed services after the start of a major war is a historic fact

[4everAD]

Good riddance to an embarrassment of a CAS, hopefully we can now get back to concentrating on the important things rather than endless D&I targets.

[brakedwell]

I served as a driver airframes for 19 years between 1955 and 1974 and I cannot remember the name of any of the CAS's during that time!

[Melchett01]

And the inevitable ‘very sub-inflationary because we can’t strike but will cover everyone else who has been on strike’ pay rise will do absolutely nothing to reverse those figures.

Most of those issues are long term structural and have been around for years. The only way you’ll see a rapid improvement is by throwing money at pay and factors affecting the lived experience. Creating Thunderbird 2 might have to wait if you want to head off even greater discontent.

No doubt the ‘Independent’ PRB will recognise the issues but be over ruled by their political masters.

[Melchett01]

Says it all really. Wokeston, you have simply been the worst CAS ever. You should have done the decent thing and resigned last summer. Look below what YOU have done to the RAF from the AFCAS 2023 results.

Thank God we have Sir Rich coming. I have so much hope that he will reverse and re-boot some of the awful things that you and your naked 3-star did. At least Sir Rich is starting at rock bottom; it can’t get any worse from this point onwards!


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You missed this:

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1170x1627/img_1186_bea9a8f8b92878565d892557ff13a719e2c2c1b3.jpeg

18% confidence in Service leadership, 7% morale and despite the EDI focus only 57%, down from 72% Just wow!

[Bob Viking]

Are you amazed it was so high?

BV

[BEagle]

18% confidence in Service leadership, 7% morale and despite the EDI focus only 57%, down from 72% Just wow!

Cancel leave until morale improves, eh Captain Blackadder? Baaaaaaaaaaay!!

[The B Word]

I sincerely hope that Rich Knighton is spending this weekend implementing a cleaning house plan - starting with the Dentist.

Already on RDP - gone this summer. Just trying to work out who replaces her. It better not be the 1-star who worked for her who also had her fingerprints all over this discrimination scandal. That would be bad.

[langleybaston]

the quotation was from Chug - whose record on documenting and calling out deficiencies stands pretty solid I think.

The statement that there is a clear out in almost all armed services after the start of a major war is a historic fact

No. It took a long time in the Great War, and then part of the cull was a natural death. Also Smith-Dorrien was sacked unjustifiably for saving II Corps [and ultimately the army].

[Melchett01]

Are you amazed it was so high?

BV

Something like that! In my last job there wasn’t a single Wg Cdr / Gp Capt that I worked with that wasn’t writing a CV!

[NutLoose]

Hopefully no companies decide to take him on considering how in such a short time he has managed to bring the Service to its knees.

Just let’s hope a lot more are shuffled off the board. Shame the new CAS couldn’t bring back that Group Captain that resigned, at least they showed a backbone and some moral fibre.

[PPRuNeUser0157]

Re 467. In February 2023, the Daily Mail was reporting that Group Captain Lizzie Nicholl was considering legal action against the RAF (constructive dismissal?). Such a case would expose all of the evidence and demonstrate why the former CAS and his (still serving) dentist (aka "Head of Personnel") were completely deluded in their directives to the recruiting and selection people.

[mopardave]

Re 467. In February 2023, the Daily Mail was reporting that Group Captain Lizzie Nicholl was considering legal action against the RAF (constructive dismissal?). Such a case would expose all of the evidence and demonstrate why the former CAS and his (still serving) dentist (aka "Head of Personnel") were completely deluded in their directives to the recruiting and selection people.
Maybe it would be a good thing if she did? She clearly has more spine and principal than the outgoing idiot and his misguided clowns.

[RAFEngO74to09]

New CAS already making some changes:

AM Harv Smyth now Air & Space Cdr, UK (was DCom Ops)

AM Rich Maddison now DCAS (was DCom Cap)

[Asturias56]

we still seem to have wonderfully titled SO's in charge of ... not a lot........

[Roland Pulfrew]

New CAS already making some changes:

AM Harv Smyth now Air & Space Cdr, UK (was DCom Ops)

AM Rich Maddison now DCAS (was DCom Cap)

Excellent news. Why does this news remind me of this quote from one of Merrill's Marauders (or Gaius Petronas Arbiter - you choose):

“Perhaps because we are so good at organizing, we tend as a nation to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and what a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency and demoralization.”

[Union Jack]

the quotation was from Chug - whose record on documenting and calling out deficiencies stands pretty solid I think.

The statement that there is a clear out in almost all armed services after the start of a major war is a historic fact
Thank you but, since I was clearly referring to your own comments rather than the unattributed quotation from Chug, I await your answer to my question regarding service.

Jack

[snapper41]

Re 467. In February 2023, the Daily Mail was reporting that Group Captain Lizzie Nicholl was considering legal action against the RAF (constructive dismissal?). Such a case would expose all of the evidence and demonstrate why the former CAS and his (still serving) dentist (aka "Head of Personnel") were completely deluded in their directives to the recruiting and selection people.

Surely, as she resigned rather than was sacked, she can’t sue for dismissal - constructive or otherwise?

[PPRuNeUser0157]

Re 474. No - if she can demonstrate that she had no course open to her other than resign, she can sue for constructive dismissal. I do not know whether or not she has a good enough case. I hope she has.

[SLXOwft]

Snapper, one has to quit rather than be fired - and quit fairly promptly - to be eligible for constructive dismissal.

Constructive dismissal is when you’re forced to leave your job against your will because of your employer’s conduct.

You should try and sort any issues out by speaking to your employer to solve the dispute.

If you do have a case for constructive dismissal, you should leave your job immediately - your employer may argue that, by staying, you accepted the conduct or treatment.
HMG guidance on constructive dismissal

crossed with ANA

[The B Word]

New CAS already making some changes:

AM Harv Smyth now Air & Space Cdr, UK (was DCom Ops)

AM Rich Maddison now DCAS (was DCom Cap)

I suspect this was a legacy change and a part of the hair-brained new Air Command Operating Model (ACOM) that is Wiggy’s and Turner’s legacy, where we see 2 Gp Capts on a main station instead of one. How’s that for progress? :ugh:

Sir Rich took command on Friday and the ASC and DCAS change was on the Monday. That would be some of the fastest staff work ever, if it was!

[Union Jack]

I suspect this was a legacy change and a part of the hair-brained new Air Command Operating Model (ACOM) that is Wiggy’s and Turner’s legacy, where we see 2 Gp Capts on a main station instead of one. How’s that for progress? :ugh:

Sir Rich took command on Friday and the ASC and DCAS change was on the Monday. That would be some of the fastest staff work ever, if it was!

Staff work, you say?:D

Jack

[Finningley Boy]

Just a thought, has there ever been, certainly in recent times, a 4-star engineer serving before?

FB

[minigundiplomat]

Just a thought, has there ever been, certainly in recent times, a 4-star engineer serving before?

FB

I seem to recall the key aspiration for many engineers in the past was four props.....

[Finningley Boy]

I seem to recall the key aspiration for many engineers in the past was four props.....
Aaah! now three props surrounded by a light blue circle I believe, as some of the more venerable ppruners will recall, it was an inverted chevron once!

FB:ok:

[Finningley Boy]

I suspect this was a legacy change and a part of the hair-brained new Air Command Operating Model (ACOM) that is Wiggy’s and Turner’s legacy, where we see 2 Gp Capts on a main station instead of one. How’s that for progress? :ugh:

Sir Rich took command on Friday and the ASC and DCAS change was on the Monday. That would be some of the fastest staff work ever, if it was!
Two Group Captains on one station, is the other one in charge of catering or something?:confused:

FB

[The Oberon]

I can think of one unit not too far away from Lincoln with a Group Captain Staish. A lodger unit on the base is commanded by a 1* with 3 more Group Captains beneath him.

[Easy Street]

I can think of one unit not too far away from Lincoln with a Group Captain Staish. A lodger unit on the base is commanded by a 1* with 3 more Group Captains beneath him.

Waddington:

Lodger unit 1 = Air (and now Space) Warfare Centre, the Commandant of which has been a 1* since forever, with 3 divisions which together form the centre of the RAF's tactical expertise.

Lodger unit 2 = ISTAR Force HQ. 1* Force Commander and 3 gp capts responsible for generating and operating a force of 5, soon to be 6 aircraft types spread across 3 bases, including Waddington itself. HQ covers off all the staff functions which used to be done in Group at High Wycombe, but were moved out over a decade ago to make room for jobs being displaced from MOD to High Wycombe during the Levene reforms.

Other lodger units including the Air Battlespace Training Centre and RAFAT (led by wg cdrs)

Stn Cdr = responsible for infra, discipline, security, airfield services, ATC, ground engineering, supply and logs services etc. But not responsible for the outputs of the resident lodger units, all of whom report to superiors elsewhere (High Wycombe in the 1*s case). Similar responsibilities to an Army garrison commander, who have been OF5s since forever.

Are you intimating that any of that is excessive?

[Finningley Boy]

What happens if one of the 1*s undermines the staish's authority? For example tells him to get his hair cut in front of an SAC or something?

FB

[Easy Street]

What happens if one of the 1*s undermines the staish's authority? For example tells him to get his hair cut in front of an SAC or something?

FB

The Staishes report to a different 1* (and 2*) so they could tell the 1* to poke off. In reality neither would do anything so dumb. It's like asking what if an AOC cut the Staish off at the knees in front of their people during an annual formal inspection... it doesn't tend to happen as it's against the Service's interest.

[cliver029]

I trust EASY STREETS final comment about “ being in the services best interests” were ironic in the context of what’s just gone down?

my grandson, just about to graduate from uni was lined up for the RAF making him the fourth generation to have served,, having followed all that’s gone on he has withdrawn his application and will reapply the the RN to fulfil the same role.

cliver

[Easy Street]

I trust EASY STREETS final comment about “ being in the services best interests” were ironic in the context of what’s just gone down?

The AFCAS results show that the outgoing leadership was not held in high regard by the Service. I'm confident that their successors recognise that and are getting stuck into the task of undoing the damage.

[bugged on the right]

Funny how at some point a few of them go strange. I was a member of a Commonwealth country's Air Force and during my final years we had a CAS whose sole interest was that airmen should swing their arms shoulder high when marching. He had a training aircraft painted in his personal colour scheme and would fly himself from one parade to another around the country. Woe betide any transgressors, the CAS would point them out to the disciplinary staff who would remove them from the march past. The station would receive a repeat the following month. Another weirdo was a Group Captain whose thing was to tour the station car parks to check that the vehicle stickers were appropriate and properly affixed. I suppose, as someone else pointed out, when hostilities commence these people would be replaced by proper fighters.

[minigundiplomat]

Waddington:

Lodger unit 1 = Air (and now Space) Warfare Centre, the Commandant of which has been a 1* since forever, with 3 divisions which together form the centre of the RAF's tactical expertise.

Lodger unit 2 = ISTAR Force HQ. 1* Force Commander and 3 gp capts responsible for generating and operating a force of 5, soon to be 6 aircraft types spread across 3 bases, including Waddington itself. HQ covers off all the staff functions which used to be done in Group at High Wycombe, but were moved out over a decade ago to make room for jobs being displaced from MOD to High Wycombe during the Levene reforms.

Other lodger units including the Air Battlespace Training Centre and RAFAT (led by wg cdrs)

Stn Cdr = responsible for infra, discipline, security, airfield services, ATC, ground engineering, supply and logs services etc. But not responsible for the outputs of the resident lodger units, all of whom report to superiors elsewhere (High Wycombe in the 1*s case). Similar responsibilities to an Army garrison commander, who have been OF5s since forever.

Are you intimating that any of that is excessive?

Yes

Extra words added to make up the required amount - a bit like Group Captains

[SLXOwft]

Just a thought, has there ever been, certainly in recent times, a 4-star engineer serving before?

FB
I don't think any others since Michael Alcock (As AOC-in-C Logistics Command) in the mid 90s and he was the first on the Air Force Board.

[sycamore]

Easy,ref #486,,I and half of the Station at Leeming sometime `77-80`,when the AOC Training Command,one `P Barsto,( `B the B£$%$6rd) ran a `hijack` exercise,which ended on the main dispersal with the `Staish` having to carry a `bag of gold/money` out to the AOC`s aircraft,,wearing only his `shreddies and socks`.....

[NutLoose]

Then there was Odi’s Staish who given a mini while his car was serviced decided the gate guard hadn’t saluted him correctly.

So he reversed up to remonstrate with him as the Barrier (that needed to come down fully before it would go back up) crashed down on his mini roof pinning it to the spot.
The then irate Staish kept shouting at the powerless guard to raise it again while the motor determined to go down continued running inflicting more damage.

The same Staish who’s wife driving the said car alone with the flag still on stopped to have a go at a couple of airmen for not saluting her !

[Finningley Boy]

Easy,ref #486,,I and half of the Station at Leeming sometime `77-80`,when the AOC Training Command,one `P Barsto,( `B the B£$%$6rd) ran a `hijack` exercise,which ended on the main dispersal with the `Staish` having to carry a `bag of gold/money` out to the AOC`s aircraft,,wearing only his `shreddies and socks`.....
I was told this very story back around 1983-85, a Flt Sgt Eric Forsyth, ATC, recalled it, just as you say. He said as the AOC arrived, a Helicopter arrived requiring an emergency landing. Apparently, the station was made ready for the AOC's annual formal inspection at the time and it all went to pieces as Bairsto stepped from his car. The Chopper had landed on a far dispersal when a bunch of blokes with guns and cam cream got out and launched an attack on the parade while Bairsto looked on and asked the Staish, quite calmly, what he was going to do about it. That's more or less the version I got near enough 40 years ago. :}

FB

[Lima Juliet]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoSGi7uyAwQ

A good start from the new CAS. Our mission is to “Fly and Fight” - correct. I hear that 1(F) Sqn changed their signature blocks en masse to reflect that :ok:

Whilst he tipped his hat at Wokeston (as would be professionally courteous to do so), isn’t it obviously short as an accolade and nod to his predecessor? My understanding is that he has given himself 3 months to visit the RAF, understand fully what is wrong, roll his sleeves up and get on it. His 3 priorities of redeveloping an “operational mindset”, sorting our “people” and getting after “infrastructure” are obvious, but a combat indicator that we are dealing with someone who gets his people and that I trust to get after the right things after the 4-year Wokeston debacle.

He was a great ACAS, here’s hoping he is an even better CAS. Heaven knows, we need it. I stand fully behind him to restore the pride in a great Service that many are proud to serve in.

[RetiredBA/BY]

Will the new CAS dump the term Aviator which was intended to replace Airman as non gender specific. ?
It seems Wiggy got that wrong, too. Aviator is a male term, For female its Aviatrix, according to a letter in the Sunday Times. Yesterday !

[Geriaviator]

Aviator was, and still is as far as I'm concerned, the term for one who aviates i.e. as aircrew. But I suppose that the use of 'aviator' for every Orderly Room clerk, tradesman (oops, tradesperson) and every humble erk makes as much sense as calling a man a woman despite possessing a full set of equipment.

[NutLoose]

sorting our “people” and getting after “infrastructure” are obvious

While showing the newest and up to date buildings in his speech and not the falling apart crumbling buildings they actually possess.
I was stunned when i did a photoshoot at Cosford and they had water on the floor making a good reflection, chatting to the RAF guy there and thanking him for putting down the water I was aghast when he said they hadn't, it was the roof that leaked so bad.

[RAFEngO74to09]

Wigston just got awarded the US Legion of Merit at RIAT!

(1) General CQ Brown, Jr. on Twitter: "I was honored to present a Legion of Merit to my friend & former Royal Air Force counterpart, Mike Wigston. His outstanding leadership as @ChiefofAirStaff was instrumental in deepening & expanding ties between the @USAiRForce & @RoyalAirForce. #RIAT23 https://t.co/unVPAoV4DN" / Twitter

[MPN11]

Wigston just got awarded the US Legion of Merit at RIAT!

Bleurgh.