Qantas...Post COVID

[ekolbregit]

3 Greens - I think China mandated it after a few incidents in their FIR with FOs in the flight deck. So that affected South Korea, and Japan Flights as well.


in Korea, it came about as a result of AF447.

[Derfred]

a ‘Captain on the flight deck at all times’

Nothing wrong with one Captain on the flight deck.

The trouble starts when you have more than one!

:}:oh:

[cynphil]

Now that’s funny!!!😂😂😂

[Lookleft]

What about when you have 3! Two do the work but only one gets to write the book.

[slice]

Nice one Lookleft🤣

[SHVC]

All these stories of that event that are circulating. When will the other members release their book? Surely at least two of them be near or at retirement

[Keg]

All three Captains have retired from QF. Every time I ran into Dave Evans I’d ask when I could expect to read his book. He would always reply with a wry smile.

[maggot]

in Korea, it came about as a result of AF447.
All Korean airspace? I've flown through there with capt in bunk and s/o pretending to laugh at my jokes in the lhs

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

Maybe having a command endorsement ticks the box.

[ekolbregit]

All Korean airspace? I've flown through there with capt in bunk and s/o presenting to laugh at my jokes in the lhs


Sorry I wasn’t clear. Only applies to Korean Air ops and probably Asiana as well.

[SHVC]

With over half of Australia locked away being kept safe how will QF/JQ look? Surely there will be major cut backs announced without gov money injection. VA are expanding bringing back some redundant wide body pilots and Bain I would think have deeper pockets now.

Currently what we see is the new normal as idiot Australia think they can eradicate this.

[Don Diego]

Eradication is next to impossible and most of them now concede as much, so other than nutters or those with a political axe to grind to whom are you referring?

[SHVC]

Where have you been the last week? Journos, TV news even premiers want or will only accept zero cases and in deaths. They were talking about the 90 odd deaths in the UK on morning show and carrying on if it was a crime against humanity to open borders as there should be no deaths.

[Tucknroll]

Australia is not going to open with low vaccination rates.

The UK are doing us all a favour by demonstrating what happens with no restrictions and similar levels of vaccination that we will get here. If they succeed then we have a pathway. If they don’t then we’re back to the drawing board. Epidemiologists seem to be suggesting that the UK opening won’t go well at all.

Lets see what happens.

[MickG0105]

Australia is not going to open with low vaccination rates.

The UK are doing us all a favour by demonstrating what happens with no restrictions and similar levels of vaccination that we will get here. If they succeed then we have a pathway. If they don’t then we’re back to the drawing board. Epidemiologists seem to be suggesting that the UK opening won’t go well at all.

Lets see what happens.
Give it two infection cycles, we'll know in two weeks.

Frankly, I'm surprised that there's not more of a focus on Israel. 58 percent fully vaccinated, seeing rising cases but with hospitalisations, critical care hospitalisations and deaths running about an order of magnitude lower than their pre-vaccination numbers.

[Potsie Weber]

With over half of Australia locked away being kept safe how will QF/JQ look? Surely there will be major cut backs announced without gov money injection. VA are expanding bringing back some redundant wide body pilots and Bain I would think have deeper pockets now.

Currently what we see is the new normal as idiot Australia think they can eradicate this.

During the capacity war, something like 80% of QF domestic profit was from WA mining flights. I suspect at the moment it would pretty much the same with mining flights going towards offsetting the losses from COVID lockdowns.

What will be interesting is what happens with QF international. Almost totally existing by IFAM and Repatriation flights. What will happen if the government pulls support for these? Hundreds more stood down for 12-18mths?

[Fonz121]

Why can't the people who want to avoid Covid at all costs stay locked down if that's what they're so keen for, and the rest of us get on with it?

At what point does it become a personal choice that if you are unrealistically risk averse, then YOU can make allowances to cater for that. Stay at home, get groceries delivered etc. It's totally possible. I know it is because it's how I spend most of my life at the moment, but not by choice.

Keep all the reasonable restrictions in place but no more of this lockdown bs. It's the same group of us in society getting f**ked every time.

I hope we do what the French did this week. Below is a little of what Macron said sourced from elsewhere:"I no longer have any intention of sacrificing my life, my time, my freedom and the adolescence of my daughters, as well as their right to study properly, for those who refuse to be vaccinated. This time you stay at home, not us."

"It’s a matter of individual responsibility [...] but also a matter of our freedom"

In France, those who do not get vaccinated will no longer be able to go to restaurants, cafes (from early August), cinemas & museums (from July 21) and get on airplanes or trains (from August). Alternatively, you will have to submit a negative test, which will no longer be free (49 euros for the PCR, 29 for the antigen).

Macron then announced the vaccination obligation for medical personnel & for those who work in contact with fragile people. Since September 15, a nurse who has refused to be vaccinated will no longer be able to go to work and receive a salary. "We cannot make those who have the civic sense to get vaccinated bear the burden of inconvenience," Macron said. "The restrictions will weigh on others, those who for reasons incomprehensible in the country of Louis Pasteur, science and the Enlightenment still hesitate to use the only weapon available against the pandemic, the vaccine." "I am aware of what I am asking you," he said, "and I know that you are ready for this commitment. This is, in a sense, part of your sense of duty."

“Get vaccinated!” was the president’s overall message. He even tweeted a GIF of himself repeating the phrase. “The equation is simple. The more we vaccinate, the less space we leave this virus to circulate.”

Macron explained that the government was striving to achieve a 100% vaccination rate across the country.”

[DirectAnywhere]

Why can't the people who want to avoid Covid at all costs stay locked down if that's what they're so keen for, and the rest of us get on with it?

At what point does it become a personal choice that if you are unrealistically risk averse, then YOU can make allowances to cater for that. Stay at home, get groceries delivered etc. It's totally possible. I know it is because it's how I spend most of my life at the moment, but not by choice.

Keep all the reasonable restrictions in place but no more of this lockdown bs. It's the same group of us in society getting f**ked every time.

Yup, maybe in 6 months when everyone has had the OPPORTUNITY to get vaccinated, with a vaccine that is recommended for them by ATAGI.

But, what's your plan until then? Hospitals that can't cope? 50 odd thousand deaths? Adjusted for population that's roughly what we'd be looking at, plus the effects of long-COVID. Of the 1360 COVID cases around the country, 128 are hospitalised, or roughly 10%. It should be only too apparent how this would go if governments allow people to continue on as normal at present. No-one likes it, everyone's had enough, I've had a gutful and I'm guessing I'll be stood down again in a few weeks without pay but seriously, what's the alternative for now?

I'm sure those who want to "get on with it" would be amongst the masses clamouring for a hospital bed if they get seriously ill from COVID.

[Fonz121]

Yup, maybe in 6 months when everyone has had the OPPORTUNITY to get vaccinated, with a vaccine that is recommended for them by ATAGI.

The only reason ATAGI have recommended against AZ, a perfectly safe vaccine which by all accounts is showing excellent protection against serious illness from the Delta variant, is because we are suppressing the virus with extreme lockdowns. So given the choice of a vaccine with a one in a million chance of death, or a very delayed vaccine program that results in continuous lockdowns and negative impacts to many peoples mental well-being, doesn't logic dictate that we should be using the vaccine?

ATAGI can go jump. They have one priority, and it's to the detriment of everything else which is no way to make decisions. Ultimately the politicians are at fault for ceding all decision making to the medicos.

[Fonz121]

Whilst on the subject of AZ I thought this was interesting.


Data released last week from the Australian Bureau of Statistics shows that 35 per cent of unvaccinated people aged 50 to 69 and 26 per cent aged 70 and over cited “wanting a different vaccine” as a factor in their “ability to get a Covid-19 vaccination”. This compares with 7 and 9 per cent of those aged 18 to 34 and 35 to 49.

But what if the problems plaguing the AZ vaccine were breathtakingly simple all along?

On June 29, scientists from Germany authored a paper that was published in pre-print form on the biology server hosted by the world-leading Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory. It provided compelling evidence that the clotting syndrome associated with the AZ vaccine is caused by accidental intravenous injection.

The paper, which has not yet been peer-reviewed, showed in animal tests that the clotting can be induced when the injection site nicks a blood vessel instead of hitting the deltoid muscle. It could be avoided with a harmless procedure known as aspirating the syringe, which is standard in some countries around the world. Simply, the health professional draws back on the syringe at the injection site to check for blood before delivering the inoculation. In March, Denmark changed its guidelines to account for this as a precautionary measure. The theory had been circulating for months.

The Saturday Paper can reveal the TGA is aware of the paper and is considering its implications. “If the TGA determines that further regulatory action is required on the basis of emerging evidence,” a spokesperson said, “we will make this information available promptly.”

[SHVC]

Are you able to provide a link to that Fonz? sounds interesting.

I found a French theory.
https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/French-scientists-say-injection-error-could-explain-AstraZeneca-issues

[Fonz121]

I can’t find the original paper but this article contains a bit more info.


https://www.indiatoday.in/coronavirus-outbreak/vaccine-updates/story/faulty-injection-technique-rare-clot-disorder-post-covid-vaccination-1823416-2021-07-03

[AerialPerspective]

Whilst on the subject of AZ I thought this was interesting.


Data released last week from the Australian Bureau of Statistics shows that 35 per cent of unvaccinated people aged 50 to 69 and 26 per cent aged 70 and over cited “wanting a different vaccine” as a factor in their “ability to get a Covid-19 vaccination”. This compares with 7 and 9 per cent of those aged 18 to 34 and 35 to 49.

But what if the problems plaguing the AZ vaccine were breathtakingly simple all along?

On June 29, scientists from Germany authored a paper that was published in pre-print form on the biology server hosted by the world-leading Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory. It provided compelling evidence that the clotting syndrome associated with the AZ vaccine is caused by accidental intravenous injection.

The paper, which has not yet been peer-reviewed, showed in animal tests that the clotting can be induced when the injection site nicks a blood vessel instead of hitting the deltoid muscle. It could be avoided with a harmless procedure known as aspirating the syringe, which is standard in some countries around the world. Simply, the health professional draws back on the syringe at the injection site to check for blood before delivering the inoculation. In March, Denmark changed its guidelines to account for this as a precautionary measure. The theory had been circulating for months.

The Saturday Paper can reveal the TGA is aware of the paper and is considering its implications. “If the TGA determines that further regulatory action is required on the basis of emerging evidence,” a spokesperson said, “we will make this information available promptly.”

I read the same thing. I'm pretty sure I also heard a few months back that "scientists in Germany were close to determining what causes the clotting".

[Turnleft080]

I can’t find the original paper but this article contains a bit more info.


https://www.indiatoday.in/coronavirus-outbreak/vaccine-updates/story/faulty-injection-technique-rare-clot-disorder-post-covid-vaccination-1823416-2021-07-03

Also for a tutorial on the subject Youtube "Dr John Campbell Aspirate to vaccinate", the first 10min he gives a good explanation. This goes back to 16 April 21.

[stillcallozhome]

I know most have seen it before but thought with what’s going on right now with QF and AJ, this was quite pertinent...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=858t44psmww

[blubak]

I know most have seen it before but thought with what’s going on right now with QF and AJ, this was quite pertinent...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=858t44psmww
Havent seen it before but a few in this country could & need to take note.

[MelbourneFlyer]

Sounds like a bit of a bastard play by Qantas.

Qantas has settled a case brought against the airline by Captain Andrew Hewitt, who had alleged he was the victim of age discrimination.
The son of former Qantas chairman Sir Lenox Hewitt was offered early retirement rather than redundancy when the Covid-19 pandemic struck last year, because he was over 63.
Qantas’s reasoning was that pilots like Captain Hewitt would reach age 65 before international flying was able to resume, which would rule them out of operating overseas commercial flights.
Under international civil aviation laws, a pilot cannot operate international airline flights after reaching 65.
Captain Hewitt argued that an early retirement package was worth considerably less than redundancy, at the equivalent of four months pay as opposed to 12 months.


https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/qantas-age-discrimination-case-resolved/news-story/8c2e66287784e5fc627fda7f5bff3304

[Paragraph377]

Sounds like a bit of a bastard play by Qantas.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/qantas-age-discrimination-case-resolved/news-story/8c2e66287784e5fc627fda7f5bff3304
There is no level too low for Joyce. When it comes to money and corporate bonuses he will do whatever it takes to keep his pockets filled. He would have staff squashing coke cans and taking them to a Mascot recycling center if it means earning a couple of cents extra. A persons length of service, loyalty, position in society or anything else is irrelevant. Alan is all about Alan, always has been and always will be. One day he will parachute off into the sunset with his husband and to be honest it can’t come too soon. A selfish little garden gnome who has not an ethical or moral bone in his body. The poster boy for narcissism, egotism and corporate greed.

[Paragraph377]

Havent seen it before but a few in this country could & need to take note.
The difference is that many Japanese CEO’s ‘share’ corporate wealth within the company and they possess a small but actual moral compass and sense of loyalty to their staff. Joyce is all about Joyce. A selfish, pathetic amoeba that would sell his mother if it earned him $20.00. A spineless little toad that makes staff feel sick every time he jumps into 1A.

[Keg]

Sounds like a bit of a bastard play by Qantas.


How is that? Are you suggesting that QF should have paid him 12 months VR package even though he only had 11 months until retirement age? Where do you draw the line on that? What about someone who had (say) 9 months until retirement? 3 months?

[ScepticalOptomist]

How is that? Are you suggesting that QF should have paid him 12 months VR package even though he only had 11 months until retirement age? Where do you draw the line on that? What about someone who had (say) 9 months until retirement? 3 months?

Why not? After all those loyal years of service, would it be so bad to do one iota more than legally necessary?

[Keg]

The VR offer was not ‘legally necessary’. It was an offer. If a pilot had more than a couple of years the offer was 9 months and three months notice. If the pilot had less than two years it was four months pay and less than 12 months the offer was three months.

Qantas didn’t have to make the offer. They could have offered nothing. They could have worked on the principle that some crew were likely to hit 65 before there was much flying back. They could have offered VR to some and not to others. That is the nature of VR. (In fact they did offer it to some and not others. It wasn’t offered to 737 crew).

They chose to make an offer of ‘early retirement’ to those over 63. Even the ATO agreed that those within 6 months (I think) of 65 it wasn’t a ‘genuine early retirement’ and their pay out was taxed differently.

Would I have liked to see a better offer? Sure. But the offer was what it was. Again, where does one draw the line in all of this?

[ScepticalOptomist]

The VR offer was not ‘legally necessary’. It was an offer. If a pilot had more than a couple of years the offer was 9 months and three months notice. If the pilot had less than two years it was four months pay and less than 12 months the offer was three months.

Qantas didn’t have to make the offer. They could have offered nothing. They could have worked on the principle that some crew were likely to hit 65 before there was much flying back. They could have offered VR to some and not to others. That is the nature of VR. (In fact they did offer it to some and not others. It wasn’t offered to 737 crew).

They chose to make an offer of ‘early retirement’ to those over 63. Even the ATO agreed that those within 6 months (I think) of 65 it wasn’t a ‘genuine early retirement’ and their pay out was taxed differently.

Would I have liked to see a better offer? Sure. But the offer was what it was. Again, where does one draw the line in all of this?

I hear you, but still believe QF could choose not to be such asses. But they don’t. :-)

[Ken Borough]

Paragraph377,

Pray tell me, what has Alan Joyce done to you that warrants such vitriolic and hateful posts? I hope you have a good lawyer.

[Climb150]

Paragraph377,

Pray tell me, what has Alan Joyce done to you that warrants such vitriolic and hateful posts? I hope you have a good lawyer.

Other airline CEOs at least pretend they value their staff.

[Going Boeing]

Paragraph377,

Pray tell me, what has Alan Joyce done to you that warrants such vitriolic and hateful posts? I hope you have a good lawyer.

Ken, while I agree with you that it’s not appropriate to place offensive posts on any site like this, Joyce’s extreme narcissistic behaviour has got a lot of staff angry enough to use offensive terms.

[Lookleft]

I think P377's post is actually toned down compared to what he has put out in the past. anyway I am very sure Ken that he will spend less than a nano-second worrying about what you think.

[Street garbage]

Paragraph377,

Pray tell me, what has Alan Joyce done to you that warrants such vitriolic and hateful posts? I hope you have a good lawyer.

So, are you going to defend Mr Joyce's behaviour? Taking $200k a week whilst most of Long Haul got $0?
Are you serious? Are you an Qantas Angel?

[Paragraph377]

I think P377's post is actually toned down compared to what he has put out in the past. anyway I am very sure Ken that he will spend less than a nano-second worrying about what you think.
Aagh my sparring partner, so true. I have toned things down quite a bit these days, it’s an age thing. And indeed I care naught about anything Ken thinks or says 👍

[JBE]

Keg, the line was drawn by Qf and Captain Hewitt. You, or anyone else’s opinion on where the line should be drawn is irrelevant. It appears that Captain Hewitt had a win over Qf. Qf were the defendant, which means that they likely made an offer to Captain Hewitt, which he accepted. This means that Qf must have believed there was a good chance that the outcome of the case would not suit them if tested in court. I have no idea why Qf were concerned about this matter being decided in court, but I bet you have the answer, or at least an opinion on it that will read like fact.

Keg, you don’t appear to be a lawyer, and therefore you are not qualified to be constantly presenting your legal opinions as fact. Presenting your legal opinions as fact makes your posts misleading.

Keg, why do you constantly appear to be defending Qf rather than your fellow pilot’s legal rights? Is it because you think that Qf are so big and powerful that they are able to make the law up as they go? Do you think the law does not apply to Qf? Or is it something else entirely? Whatever it is, to those that know a bit more than you, your opinions appear farcical, and border on appearing to be motivated by something other than defending the rights of your colleagues.

Qf have recently lost or settled a few significant legal matters. This means they have been found to have broken the law. They are far from infallible.

[MelbourneFlyer]

News that might cheer P377: "Qantas in court loss to Transport Workers Union over outsourcing"

The Federal Court has found Qantas acted unlawfully in the outsourcing of 2000 ground handling crew by taking into consideration the potential for industrial action by the workers concerned.
Judge Michael Lee delivered his ruling on Friday, describing the case brought by the Transport Workers Union as “complex”.
Although he dismissed several claims brought by the TWU, Justice Lee said Qantas had failed to convince him that the threat of industrial action was not a factor in the outsourcing decision which amounted to a $100 million a year saving for the airline.
The union was due to negotiate a new enterprise agreement for ground handling crews in 2021 which would have carried the risk of protected industrial action, adding to the challenges Qantas was already faced with in the Covid pandemic.
“The documents are replete with reference to industrial risk and the likely industrial backlash if outsourcing ground operations was pursued which was no doubt the reason why experienced industrial lawyers were so heavily involved,” Justice Lee said in his judgment.
“Qantas’ evidence went to great lengths to paint a picture of internal agonising and studious assessment of the alternatives and detachment up until the eleventh hour, but I am unconvinced that this was the case.”
Justice Lee said the court would reconvene on Monday (August 3) to decide upon declaratory relief in favour of the union.
The TWU indicated it would be demanding the outsourcing decision be reversed and called the ruling a “watershed moment for workers in Australia”.
“This ruling calls a halt to shifting responsibility for workers and outsourcing them onto third parties on a low cost, take-it or leave-it contract,” said TWU national secretary Michael Kaine.
“Workers whose lives have been put into turmoil after being kicked out of work will be expecting their jobs as soon as possible and we will be seeking meetings with Qantas to ensure this happens.”
A recent survey by the TWU of the outsourced workers found 77 per cent wanted their jobs back, and 75 per cent had been unable to find full-time employment since being axed.
Mr Kaine said the judgment raised serious questions for senior Qantas management who “targeted ground workers for outsourcing because they were united to fight for decent standards at the airline”.
However Justice Lee found high levels of union membership among the ground handling crews was not a factor in Qantas’s decision.
Qantas was reviewing the judgment.
The airline and TWU have engaged in several court battles in the last year, including a clash over JobKeeper payments and sick leave allowances.
Despite an initial victory over the payment of JobKeeper to employees, the TWU lost on appeal by Qantas, and the union was also unsuccessful in its attempt to have stood-down workers receive sick leave pay.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/qantas-in-court-loss-to-transport-workers-union-over-outsourcing/news-story/bbd708d6ad4f48503dc2e8c8f7311bd2

[Paragraph377]

Very interesting. We will see whether the ruling sticks or whether Qantas fight the ruling and get a win. This has a long way to play yet. Joyce doesn’t like losing and he isn’t going to roll over that easily.

Regardless, I am curious as to what the snivelling Qantas Board Directors are going to say about this. It certainly doesn’t paint a great picture for the CEO and his Executives who hatched the initial action to outsource a skilled workforce. But then again, Joyce is the CEO who grounded the international operation which inconvenienced thousands of customers and third party businesses and displaced many staff members. And of course the public shareholders lauded him for doing it. So I’m betting whatever comes of this, the little general will remain comfortably seated in his/her Mascot office.

[MelbourneFlyer]

So I’m betting whatever comes of this, the little general will remain comfortably seated in his/her Mascot office.

P377, we get that you don’t like Alan Joyce but taking a cheap shot at his sexuality with that ‘his/her’ comment is beneath you and incredibly offensive. Feel free to argue the case but keep the cheap homophobic shots out of it, mate.

[Paragraph377]

P377, we get that you don’t like Alan Joyce but taking a cheap shot at his sexuality with that ‘his/her’ comment is beneath you and incredibly offensive. Feel free to argue the case but keep the cheap homophobic shots out of it, mate.
How is it homophobic? Numerous Qantas managers now include his/her or he/she within on their signature blocks on their emails. And to your happiness, some of those same managers are homosexuals. Are you disappointed in those managers? You have a nerve calling me homophobic when you know nothing about me or my social network. it is you who is offensive. I couldn’t care less about AJ’s sexuality, not one iota. My disdain is for the type of person he is in general, the type of person who grounds an airline and screws the Australian public, a person who makes good people redundant and uses the guise of COVID to send thousands of staff to the unemployment line while he pockets millions of dollars. None of that has any link to his sexuality.

MelbourneFlyer, you really need to toughen up and stop being such an easily offended idiot.

[knobbycobby]

Keg, the line was drawn by Qf and Captain Hewitt. You, or anyone else’s opinion on where the line should be drawn is irrelevant. It appears that Captain Hewitt had a win over Qf. Qf were the defendant, which means that they likely made an offer to Captain Hewitt, which he accepted. This means that Qf must have believed there was a good chance that the outcome of the case would not suit them if tested in court. I have no idea why Qf were concerned about this matter being decided in court, but I bet you have the answer, or at least an opinion on it that will read like fact.

Keg, you don’t appear to be a lawyer, and therefore you are not qualified to be constantly presenting your legal opinions as fact. Presenting your legal opinions as fact makes your posts misleading.

Keg, why do you constantly appear to be defending Qf rather than your fellow pilot’s legal rights? Is it because you think that Qf are so big and powerful that they are able to make the law up as they go? Do you think the law does not apply to Qf? Or is it something else entirely? Whatever it is, to those that know a bit more than you, your opinions appear farcical, and border on appearing to be motivated by something other than defending the rights of your colleagues.

Qf have recently lost or settled a few significant legal matters. This means they have been found to have broken the law. They are far from infallible.

Spot on. Keg is not even a bush lawyer. In fact it’s dangerous someone offering such unqualified options as fact. But that seems to be what Keg does. Mislead and deliberately obfuscate. It’s just a barrage of unqualified rubbish.

[MelbourneFlyer]

How is it homophobic? Numerous Qantas managers now include his/her or he/she within on their signature blocks on their emails.

Wrong again. They include their gender pronoun preference which is either he/his, she/hers or they/theirs. So when you describe Alan Joyce as "his/hers" you're clearly making an attack on AJ by 'confusing' his sexuality, despite your ham-fisted attempts to paper over your homophobic remarks by citing incorrect email signature blocks.

[Paragraph377]

Wrong again. They include their gender pronoun preference which is either he/his, she/hers or they/theirs. So when you describe Alan Joyce as "his/hers" you're clearly making an attack on AJ by 'confusing' his sexuality, despite your ham-fisted attempts to paper over your homophobic remarks by citing incorrect email signature blocks.
Umm, yeah, ok. Whatever helps you sleep well at night. Just get over it will ya. I really couldn’t give a stuff what your thoughts are.There are children starving to death in Sudan and you’re worried about a perceived homophobic remark. Get a life.

[Keg]

It appears that Captain Hewitt had a win over Qf.

:ok: Good one. Thanks for the laugh.


Keg, you don’t appear to be a lawyer, and therefore you are not qualified to be constantly presenting your legal opinions as fact.

My opinions are my opinions. I present them here on PPRUNE just as you and others have done so. Feel free to disagree with them, feel free to debate them, feel free to ignore them, but spare me the confected anguish that I any way put them forward as a capital ‘O’ legal opinion. It’s a lazy debating tactic that plays the person rather than the argument. .



Keg, why do you constantly appear to be defending Qf rather than your fellow pilot’s legal rights?

This is a great example. Hewitt has the legal right to take QF on. I also have the ‘right’ to hold a personal opinion that I find the case to be a waste of time. I don’t defend QF’s actions at all. For those that knee jerk respond to Hewitt’s case with a metaphorical ‘good on him’ I pose questions such as ‘where is the line drawn between VR/ ER, etc.

…to those that know a bit more than you, your opinions appear farcical…

Yahoo for them. Having over the years talked a multitude of these issues over through people who know a lot more than me it seems that at least some of the time my opinions are spot on. When they’re not I’m happy to learn. I tend to engage in discussion and debate on PPRUNE and enjoy learning from those who put forward a different perspective.

And yet that’s not what you’ve done here. You’ve launched a personal attack at my motivations of which you actually know bugger all. I think that speaks volumes more about you than it does me.



Qf have recently lost or settled a few significant legal matters. This means they have been found to have broken the law.

Lol. And you suggest I put forward farcical ‘legal’ opinions? Pot, kettle!

They are far from infallible.

On this we agree.

But that seems to be what Keg does. Mislead and deliberately obfuscate. It’s just a barrage of unqualified rubbish.

Of course I’m sure you’ve examples of where I’ve set out to ‘mislead and deliberately obfuscate? I won’t dispute the ‘unqualified’ part but if you came to PPRUNE looking for ‘qualified’ opinions you’ve come to the wrong place.

Amazing how often people take anonymous pot shots on PPRUNE but never actually have the guts to do it face to face or over the phone. Ah well. It’s been more than 20 years on PPRUNE now. Why would I expect things to change.

[Tucknroll]

Umm, yeah, ok. Whatever helps you sleep well at night. Just get over it will ya. I really couldn’t give a stuff what your thoughts are.There are children starving to death in Sudan and you’re worried about a perceived homophobic remark. Get a life.

Attacking Alan’s sexuality makes you look petty and immature. It also makes everyone less likely to listen to what you’re saying.

You’re wrong, just admit it and move on.

[Paragraph377]

Attacking Alan’s sexuality makes you look petty and immature. It also makes everyone less likely to listen to what you’re saying.
You’re wrong, just admit it and move on.
Wow. Pilots were a lot smarter in my day than half of you lot. Then again we do live in a society today filled with sooks and the ‘woke’ movement. Apologies for saying Joyce is a pathetic CEO? Um, no. Apologies for attacking his sexuality? Umm, can’t do that as I haven’t attacked his sexuality. You and MelbourneFlyer really aren’t very bright.

[fearcampaign]

I won’t dispute the ‘unqualified’ part but if you came to PPRuNe looking for ‘qualified’ opinions you’ve come to the wrong place.

You have said it clearly yourself Keg. Everything you write is “Unqualified opinion”. 20 years of it in fact.

[Keg]

You bet. Have never pretended otherwise. Glad you recognise that my opinions hold precisely the same weight on an anonymous Internet forums as yours fearcampaign. Perhaps you might let JBE and knobbycobby know so they can have the same enlightened position as you?

My opinions are my opinions. Take them or leave them. Debate them or ignore them. It really doesn't bother me.

I do find the insight into others interesting though. Rather than engage in a discussion on the various issues that arise, instead some prefer to play the man. As I said earlier, it speaks volumes.

[FightDeck]

Facts are that Qantas are either settling cases like Andrew Hewitts’ as Qantas didn’t have a strong case or they are losing as is the case with the TWU in the Federal court. The judge was damming of the behaviour of every Qantas executive and how Qantas deliberately and meticulously manufactured legal and industrial responses and strategy. The judge saw through it and ruled accordingly.
Shows what Qantas wants and communicates as facts via media, webinars, company moles on forums, differs to what the court of law says.

“Qf have recently lost or settled a few significant legal matters. This means they have been found to have broken the law. They are far from infallible.” Spot on!

It shows the importance of asking these questions in court.
As opposed to basing decisions or relying on opinion that is completely unqualified on a Qrewroom or slack/Prune. I often think it’s the case of deliberate misinformation masquerading as “just my opinion”. Often it’s an attempt to steer the opinion of the masses toward the companies position as opposed to that which would benefit or be a right of the pilot
Shows how important the legal system is proving to be.

[engine out]

I would say that settling is not having been found to break the law. More likely they were not sufficiently sure that they would be successful and played the odds that a settlement is cheaper without setting any precedent. The other party was also not positive they could win and also took the money and run. Essential both parties edging their bets and not willing to let courts decide in the others favour.

[theheadmaster]

I would say that settling is not having been found to break the law. More likely they were not sufficiently sure that they would be successful and played the odds that a settlement is cheaper without setting any precedent. The other party was also not positive they could win and also took the money and run. Essential both parties edging their bets and not willing to let courts decide in the others favour.

Agree. Moreover, the costs of running the case and any subsequent appeals may have been more than the settlement. In any case, what Qantas would have done is run a risk assessment and made a decision it was better to settle than litigate. That lesson applies to pilots too.

Also, even though Keg's comments/opinions on this matter may be 'unqualified', I find them to be pretty accurate and sensible.

[Lookleft]

Also, even though Keg's comments/opinions on this matter may be 'unqualified', I find them to be pretty accurate and sensible.

And will stick to the issue. I know things are tough for Qantas pilots but the level of personal vitriol directed to one person has gone up a couple of levels.

[FightDeck]

Qantas only settled because they risked losing.
Qantas lost against the TWU and most importantly the judge made damning findings against Qantas management, and their IR and legal approach.
These are facts.
Qantas are being held to account by the legal system. Not on just one occasion.

[theheadmaster]

Qantas only settled because they risked losing.
Qantas lost against the TWU and most importantly the judge made damning findings against Qantas management, and their IR and legal approach.
These are facts.
Qantas are being held to account by the legal system. Not on just one occasion.

This is opinion.

[FightDeck]

Qantas settled against Captain Hewitt.
Qantas lost in the Federal court against the TWU.

[Lookleft]

Qantas settled against Captain Hewitt.
Qantas lost in the Federal court against the TWU.

Correct, those are facts.

Qantas are being held to account by the legal system. Not on just one occasion.

That is opinion. Opinion that is accepted or not accepted by anyone who cares to read it.

As opposed to basing decisions or relying on opinion that is completely unqualified on a Qrewroom or slack/Prune.

You said it yourself and it applies equally to you as it does everyone else.

[DirectAnywhere]

And will stick to the issue. I know things are tough for Qantas pilots but the level of personal vitriol directed to one person has gone up a couple of levels.

In my dealings with Keg, he seems a decent bloke.

[knobbycobby]

Great to see the Captains get the Settlement that was acceptable to them. And good to see a federal court judge critical of the industrial and legal approach taken by Qantas and rule accordingly.

[Lookleft]

Its not the big table at Fattie's anymore. You throw out some nasty little hand grenades then expect everyone to move on? "I have spoken and there the matter ends!" It doesn't work that way in the real world.

[JBE]

Lookleft, re “I have spoken and there the matter ends”, I’ll thank you for not putting words in my mouth and misrepresenting me. Moving on was merely a suggestion. Your welcome to dwell there.

[theheadmaster]

Thanks theheadmaster and engine out. I think most people would understand the difference between settling a dispute and a ruling made by a judge, without needing a lesson on when Qf have been found to have broken the law versus when Qf have settled.

Both of you are doing nothing more than obfuscating my 3 points, which were that:

Keg isn’t qualified to be presenting his legal opinions as fact. It is my opinion that presenting unqualified legal opinions on public forums is dangerous, can be misleading, and is not justified simply because others do it. And,
It is fact that Qf has settled and lost recent legal battles. Losing legal battles in court means that Qf have been found to have broken the law. And,
I questioned why keg appears to constantly support qf’s position.

The issue is that in my opinion certain people including AIPA CoM members, and Qf management infiltrate online forums to push the company agenda, as well as their own personal agenda to the detriment of the broader pilot group. Nothing written after my initial post changes my opinion.

At least we can all agree Qf is not infallible. Pilots legal rights should be supported rather than undermined. Let’s move on shall we gentlemen?

I don't believe that Keg presented a 'legal opinion'.

Qantas may have lost the recent case with the TWU, however whether Qantas have 'broken the law' or not has not been finalised. There will be an appeal and at the end of that process the outcome will be known. However, the 'battle' and whether Qantas 'have broken the law' is not the real issue. The 'war' is about what happens to the workers. They have not been reinstated on their old conditions, and probably never will be. The 'war' is about what Qantas have done to the TWU, the FAAA, the ALAEA (and perhaps the AFAP with regards to Jetstar). AIPA needs to make sure they don't contribute to its members meeting the same fate.

The statement about AIPA CoM members infiltrating forums to push the company agenda is absurd. People like Keg are not pushing the company agenda to outsource and reduce conditions, they are actively working to prevent it. Taking the same path as the other unions will likely lead to similar outcomes. Not sure if you were in the industry in 1989, but I see similar grass roots attitudes now that were arounds then. The AIPA leadership were wise enough to avoid that mess. I don't have the same faith in the current AIPA leadership. In fact we have substantially the same Executive members that led long haul pilots to the industrial situation of 2011. The same people had a view that the current short haul and long haul Agreements should have been voted down. Look and see what having an open agreement at the moment means for your Jetstar and Virgin mates.

The argument isn't about standing up for pilots or not, it is about how to do it without shooting yourself in the foot.

[maggot]

Its not the big table at Fattie's anymore. You throw out some nasty little hand grenades then expect everyone to move on? "I have spoken and there the matter ends!" It doesn't work that way in the real world.

Oh the house of fat. When will we get there again :bored:

[blubak]

Facts are that Qantas are either settling cases like Andrew Hewitts’ as Qantas didn’t have a strong case or they are losing as is the case with the TWU in the Federal court. The judge was damming of the behaviour of every Qantas executive and how Qantas deliberately and meticulously manufactured legal and industrial responses and strategy. The judge saw through it and ruled accordingly.
Shows what Qantas wants and communicates as facts via media, webinars, company moles on forums, differs to what the court of law says.

“Qf have recently lost or settled a few significant legal matters. This means they have been found to have broken the law. They are far from infallible.” Spot on!

It shows the importance of asking these questions in court.
As opposed to basing decisions or relying on opinion that is completely unqualified on a Qrewroom or slack/Prune. I often think it’s the case of deliberate misinformation masquerading as “just my opinion”. Often it’s an attempt to steer the opinion of the masses toward the companies position as opposed to that which would benefit or be a right of the pilot
Shows how important the legal system is proving to be.
I am sure there will be words like'we strongly disagree with the courts decision & we always comply & act completely within the law'.
How many times have we seen this before.

[TimmyTee]

https://www.theage.com.au/business/companies/qantas-to-stand-down-2500-employees-in-response-to-outbreaks-20210803-p58fbq.htmlQantas to stand down 2500 employees in response to outbreaksThe decision will directly impact domestic pilots, cabin crew and airport workers, mostly in New South Wales but also in other states given the nature of airline networks.

Not ideal

[MelbourneFlyer]

These staff will also all be given two weeks notice apparently, with the stand down itself to last for eight weeks. After Sydney has been in lockdown this long, states closing borders etc I am surprised that this didn't happen sooner. As much as some people here like to slam Alan Joyce I think it's worth noting that those thousands of people have remained employed and drawing a full salary even without actually 'working' on flights which have been grounded. Or can people find something to criticise in that too?

[Lapon]

These staff will also all be given two weeks notice apparently, with the stand down itself to last for eight weeks. After Sydney has been in lockdown this long, states closing borders etc I am surprised that this didn't happen sooner. As much as some people here like to slam Alan Joyce I think it's worth noting that those thousands of people have remained employed and drawing a full salary even without actually 'working' on flights which have been grounded. Or can people find something to criticise in that too?

No doubt many would be thankful for how it has played out to date this time around, although Im not sure it was simply 'an act of generosity'.

[Street garbage]

These staff will also all be given two weeks notice apparently, with the stand down itself to last for eight weeks. After Sydney has been in lockdown this long, states closing borders etc I am surprised that this didn't happen sooner. As much as some people here like to slam Alan Joyce I think it's worth noting that those thousands of people have remained employed and drawing a full salary even without actually 'working' on flights which have been grounded. Or can people find something to criticise in that too?

Full Salary...BS
Generous...BS..most 737 crew stood up had close to MGH on their line. Main Line is now seen as a casualised workforce, stood up at the whim of Management, stood down at minimal notice to suit the Industrial Agenda.

Or do you mean generous, as in being paid $10 million dollars for the year, and having a large percentage of your workforce surviving on Government handouts?

QCC never can gauge the workforce, there is too many filters to drown out the real world, staff are angry at how the Ground Staff were dismissed, that are livid about how they have been treated again today. It will be bubbly and bonuses all round in the next couple of weeks when the AMAZING profit is announced.

Spare me the koolaid propaganda.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Full Salary...BS
Generous...BS..most 737 crew stood up had close to MGH on their line. Main Line is now seen as a casualised workforce, stood up at the whim of Management, stood down at minimal notice to suit the Industrial Agenda.

Or do you mean generous, as in being paid $10 million dollars for the year, and having a large percentage of your workforce surviving on Government handouts?

QCC never can gauge the workforce, there is too many filters to drown out the real world, staff are angry at how the Ground Staff were dismissed, that are livid about how they have been treated again today. It will be bubbly and bonuses all round in the next couple of weeks when the AMAZING profit is announced.

Spare me the koolaid propaganda.

Agree. Don’t know how people like Melbourne Flyer come up with this dribble!

[Paragraph377]

Agree. Don’t know how people like Melbourne Flyer come up with this dribble!
I think MelbourneFlyer might be Shane Lloyd.

[morno]

It will be bubbly and bonuses all round in the next couple of weeks when the AMAZING profit is announced.

Spare me the koolaid propaganda.

hahahahahaha, profit, hahaha…… oh wait, you’re serious? You really think that you’re going to make a profit? :hmm:

[maggot]

hahahahahaha, profit, hahaha…… oh wait, you’re serious? You really think that you’re going to make a profit? :hmm:

...what was the guidance? I've heard it won't be hit but will be a token one.
When you can eliminate so much cost and manipulate to ensure there's a symbol of your success.

[cloudsurfng]

hahahahahaha, profit, hahaha…… oh wait, you’re serious? You really think that you’re going to make a profit? :hmm:


don’t you work for JQ? So isn’t that you as well?

EBITDA, yep. But by the time they write down the value of literally everything to position themselves for transformation bonus MKII, a massive loss.

[MelbourneFlyer]

No doubt many would be thankful for how it has played out to date this time around, although Im not sure it was simply 'an act of generosity'.

I didn't say it was 'an act of generosity', those are your words, my point is that nobody can deny that letting these works remain on full salary for all that time while unable to perform their actual duties is pretty decent but that Qantas and Alan Joyce would probably see no acknowledgement of that here, compared to the immediate cries for blood if those workers had been stood down as soon as flights were reduced.

[MelbourneFlyer]

It will be bubbly and bonuses all round in the next couple of weeks when the AMAZING profit is announced.

Okay, so I can count on your admission of being wrong when FY21 is loss not profit and there are no bonuses to be paid?

[Paragraph377]

I didn't say it was 'an act of generosity', those are your words, my point is that nobody can deny that letting these works remain on full salary for all that time while unable to perform their actual duties is pretty decent but that Qantas and Alan Joyce would probably see no acknowledgement of that here, compared to the immediate cries for blood if those workers had been stood down as soon as flights were reduced.
Yes Shane, Qantas and Alan are decent people. Of course they are. Never have the Board and Alan been in it for themselves, never. How rude of people to think otherwise.

[MelbourneFlyer]

Wow, P377, if juvenile retorts like that are best you can do, no wonder your actual opinions seem so ill-informed.

[Paragraph377]

Wow, P377, if juvenile retorts like that are best you can do, no wonder your actual opinions seem so ill-informed.
Juvenile, perhaps it is Shane. But a sensible reply would be wasted on your ridiculous notion that Alan and the Board are doing a wonderfully amazing job at Qantas when it comes to its treatment of its staff. Shane, your fellow worshippers of Lord Alan are seeking your presence so you better hurry along now…..

[MelbourneFlyer]

P377, how about trying to debate the issue rather than the personalities? I know that's hard for you when playground-level insults seem to be your forte, but do tell, what is so bad about Qantas' decision to keep so many staff on salary during the past month despite demand and flights being crippled by the lockdowns? Or are you incapable of admitting that Alan Joyce and the QF execs can in fact make business decisions which are not always as evil as you like to portray?

[Chris2303]

But a sensible reply would be wasted on your ridiculous notion that Alan and the Board are doing a wonderfully amazing job at Qantas when it comes to its treatment of its staff.

Perhaps you could tell us what employer in Aus or NZ is doing an amazing job.

[Paragraph377]

P377, how about trying to debate the issue rather than the personalities? I know that's hard for you when playground-level insults seem to be your forte, but do tell, what is so bad about Qantas' decision to keep so many staff on salary during the past month despite demand and flights being crippled by the lockdowns? Or are you incapable of admitting that Alan Joyce and the QF execs can in fact make business decisions which are not always as evil as you like to portray?
I don’t need to debate anything as my opinion remains unchanged. I’m sure the 2,500 sacked ground handlers, sacked for the purpose of saving an alleged $100m per annum wouldn’t see things the way you do, Shane. And your hero Alan has been on a campaign of eroding staff numbers and conditions for many years prior to COVID. But to be fair, if you have been a shareholder or sitting up high in Mascots lofty towers you would think Alan has done an amazing job.

[MelbourneFlyer]

I don’t need to debate anything as my opinion remains unchanged. I’m sure the 2,500 sacked ground handlers, sacked for the purpose of saving an alleged $100m per annum wouldn’t see things the way you do, Shane.

Well if I was running an airline and could save at least $100m per year by moving to outsourced contract staff, which is a model that works around the world and which has been proven to be more efficient than having your own employees who are notorious as a group for over-crewing and feather-bedding, sleeping open the job, milking the rosters to maximise penalties and overtime etc, then yes, that's exactly what I would do, and any CEO who would not do this doesn't deserve to be CEO in the first place. But it sounds to me like you're just another overly critical 'armchair airline CEO' who can't take an objective view of anything because your established prejudice gets colours your worldview.

[Paragraph377]

Well if I was running an airline and could save at least $100m per year by moving to outsourced contract staff, which is a model that works around the world and which has been proven to be more efficient than having your own employees who are notorious as a group for over-crewing and feather-bedding, sleeping open the job, milking the rosters to maximise penalties and overtime etc, then yes, that's exactly what I would do, and any CEO who would not do this doesn't deserve to be CEO in the first place. But it sounds to me like you're just another overly critical 'armchair airline CEO' who can't take an objective view of anything because your established prejudice gets colours your worldview.

Wow Shane, I’m sure that the ground crew that worked hard would love to hear your esteemed analysis of their alleged poor performance. If you’re not a management stooge, you should be. And I guess based on your premise, the 737 and wide body flight crew should get paid the same salary as QLink and Jetstar flight crews, yes?

I wonder how much money Qantas will save by having their aircraft damaged in outports by cheap contractors with cheap GSE and working under extreme manpower shortages? Oh that’s right, wasn’t it 3 aircraft grounded nationally in one week due to GSE damage? I also wonder how Qantas feel about those pesky load control errors that have occurred exponentially since outsourcing ground operations.

[MelbourneFlyer]

Wow Shane, I’m sure that the ground crew that worked hard would love to hear your esteemed analysis of their alleged poor performance.

My comments don't apply to all of them of course but there were enough that rode the gravy train for decades and now that ride has come to an end. Same as the goings-on at the wharves until the late 90s when Patricks cleaned things out. Yes, a lot of pain and anger there but guess what, we actually ended up dragging Australia's waterfront operations into the 20th century and making them more efficient by every measure. There's simply no room in the world these days for those sorts of cushy practises of the 1950s and 1960s mindset, and I make no apologies for expecting any business, let alone one the size and important of Qantas, to be running like a business.

[Chronic Snoozer]

My comments don't apply to all of them of course but there were enough that rode the gravy train for decades and now that ride has come to an end. Same as the goings-on at the wharves until the late 90s when Patricks cleaned things out. Yes, a lot of pain and anger there but guess what, we actually ended up dragging Australia's waterfront operations into the 20th century and making them more efficient by every measure. There's simply no room in the world these days for those sorts of cushy practises of the 1950s and 1960s mindset, and I make no apologies for expecting any business, let alone one the size and important of Qantas, to be running like a business.

Meanwhile, management is on the Gravy Train Express..........no stops till Retirementville.

There's simply no room in the world these days for those sorts of cushy practises of the 1950s and 1960s mindset A rising tide is supposed to lift all boats not just C-suites.

[Street garbage]

Totally agree Snoozer.
Yep, to retrench 2500 people to save $100 million is essential to the survival of our business.
To pay the CEO $10.24 million is essential for the survival of our business.

Hypocrisy doesn't even come close.

Melbourne Flyer, I, like most of the other crew I work with, wouldn't the money being saved by these decisions was re-invested in the Mainline Product- but unfortunately, it is be used to line the pockets of the Few.

And if you (as in Management) don't get it- the main issue with stand down is that Crew were FORCED to return, and give up secondary employment on the basis that they were permanently Stood Up ( and so Alliance could operate former 737 services...). Keeping us stood up was "To maintain Operational Flexibility"...DH's words, not mine...not because it was a nice gesture.

And as for Mental Health that has dominated Yammer in the last couple of weeks- the Company could not give a toss.

And yes, if EBITDA is a loss, I will say sorry, I have integrity- and admit to errors.

[MelbourneFlyer]

Street Garbage, don't misunderstand me, I am certainly not suggesting that the job of Qantas Group CEO is worth $10m per year. I think $7.5m is more appropriate, with maybe $5m for the CEOs of QF domestic and QF international. But much less than that would be hard to see working, I mean, if the CEO of Qantas Group is $5m then the CEO of each operational arm of the airline would be paid quite a bit less, eg $3m, and that's just not going to fly in today's business world.

And I also agree there needs to be more investment in the airline, be it fleet or product or lounges. But right now that $100m per year is really just going to help bring the books back into balance, not a lot in the scheme of things but it all adds up.

[SHVC]

Well, we are in a much much worse position than this time last yr. Hiw much of that runway that AJ always talks about is left? Outside of SY base you might be lucky to fly again this yr, NSW is out until next yr at the earliest.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Well, we are in a much much worse position than this time last yr…..
​​​​​…….Outside of SY base you might be lucky to fly again this yr, NSW is out until next yr at the earliest.

With all due respect, how can you possibly assert that? Everyone is so full of their own BS here on PPRUNE!

Talk about a glass half empty kind of person. You must be a hoot to hang around! :-)

[Paragraph377]

I am certainly not suggesting that the job of Qantas Group CEO is worth $10m per year. I think $7.5m is more appropriate, with maybe $5m for the CEOs of QF domestic and QF international. But much less than that would be hard to see working, I mean, if the CEO of Qantas Group is $5m then the CEO of each operational arm of the airline would be paid quite a bit less, eg $3m, and that's just not going to fly in today's business world.
Holy crap!! So now you are an expert on CEO remuneration and what the QF Group CEO’s should be paid!! Is there any part of the business that you aren’t an expert on? I think you should be a financial adviser to the Qantas group rather than serving drinks to toothless grubs sitting in the back 3 rows.

[SHVC]

With all due respect, how can you possibly assert that? Everyone is so full of their own BS here on PPRUNE!

Talk about a glass half empty kind of person. You must be a hoot to hang around! :-)

Oh I’m so sorry, everything is just fine the government is doing very good and these lockdowns will be over before you know it NSW little longer about 8 weeks (I believe that but we will be so infected with covid no one will let us travel to their state).

[The The]

Well if I was running an airline and could save at least $100m per year by moving to outsourced contract staff, which is a model that works around the world and which has been proven to be more efficient than having your own employees who are notorious as a group for over-crewing and feather-bedding, sleeping open the job, milking the rosters to maximise penalties and overtime etc, then yes, that's exactly what I would do, and any CEO who would not do this doesn't deserve to be CEO in the first place. But it sounds to me like you're just another overly critical 'armchair airline CEO' who can't take an objective view of anything because your established prejudice gets colours your worldview.

Outsourcing such a large portion of the workforce is nothing more than an affirmation of the failure of management and leadership. Inspired leaders take their workers on a journey to success, where slackness, milking, rorting etc are not part of the vocabulary. If that stuff creeps in, then it is a failure of management, not the workers, and management are the one's who should be replaced. Outsourcing is for technical skills, technology or capital beyond the ability of the organisation, not for lazy or inept management. Outsourcing to such an extent is fraught with danger for an organisation, loss of direct control, reliability, cost creep etc etc.

[ManillaChillaDilla]

When were the cash reserves supposed to be able to last until?

Was it the end of 2021?

At this rate we will be lucky if there is anything left to go back to.

MCD

[cynphil]

I guess we will just have to wait until the 26th Aug to get a clearer picture of Qantas’s financial position.

[SHVC]

I think the last few months extended it, JQ was making a profit he last dial in we were told. But I agree we will be lucky to have a company to return to if this keeps up past 2021! NSW is out of the game for rest of the yr ppl need to realize regardless of the vaccination Gladys wants as other states will not let NSW travel there. Dan is locking Vic down weekly this is not sustainable.

Mid 2022 will see a very different country in what is left, seems Bain are tipping in more cash keeping their pilots and cabin crew paid even tho they’re not flying.

[Agent_86]

...seems Bain are tipping in more cash keeping their pilots and cabin crew paid even tho they’re not flying.

One has to wonder for how long Bain will keep up this caper? Their track record doesn't present a pretty picture

[LTBC]

Reserves to end-2021 was based on zero flying revenue and was prior to VR CR LWOP Jobkeeper, mortgaging the 787s and so on.

[dr dre]

When were the cash reserves supposed to be able to last until?

Was it the end of 2021?

At this rate we will be lucky if there is anything left to go back to.

MCD

It was supposed to be end of this year, but that forecast was made very early on in the pandemic, May last year I think. And that was assuming basically no income going ahead. Since then there’s been income from the IFAM and repatriation flying, domestic government backed flying, a profitable resource sector, and quite profitable domestic flying whenever it is going. As well as international and domestic employee wage subsidies from the government and the raising of cash by the selling of land. A big part of losses last year were redundancies which won’t happen again this year.

Qantas Group HY21 Appendix 4D and Interim Financial Report (https://investor.qantas.com/DownloadFile.axd?file=/Report/ComNews/20210225/02346097.pdf)

Domestic was profitable at only 30% capacity to December (I believe they’re 40-50% for the upcoming months) and International’s position will be bolstered by more repatriation flights and government assistance.

Investors are seeing the same thing as the share price is the same as it was in mid May before the latest round of domestic border closures started and well above the March 2020 level.

To put it in context the share price is down 5% compared to the start of the year when we were a bit more optimistic with the vaccine on the way. If there was someone to be worried about it would be the Australian airline group who’s shares are down 42% compared to the start of the year that recently grounded all their domestic jets.......

[ManillaChillaDilla]

Thanks Dr Dre.

MCD

[Transition Layer]

I always knew Network would be our saviour! Thank goodness they’ve been flying the whole time with no stand downs :}

[Street garbage]

I always knew Network would be our saviour! Thank goodness they’ve been flying the whole time with no stand downs :}

Yep, they are.
They are even recruiting whilst JQ and SH pilots are stood down.
Amazing business.

[Foxxster]

https://youtu.be/uafWhCv-Xd4

has this been posted anywhere

disturbing

[Tucknroll]

https://youtu.be/uafWhCv-Xd4

has this been posted anywhere

disturbing

Disturbing for our jobs? Sure.

Disturbing for safety? It’s no more disturbing than controlled rest.

[Turnleft080]

Disturbing for our jobs? Sure.

Disturbing for safety? It’s no more disturbing than controlled rest.
Just can't see FAA or CASA approving it. The DC-9 in 1965 DoT back then took a lot of convincing to operate the aircraft in
Australian skies. They never wanted an Ansett 767 operated by 2 crew either.
One crew in a A350 can't see it happening, not even AJ and his sunrise project would think it's safe (-a F/O cost ).

[ruprecht]

Andreas Lubitz had entered the chat.

[Tucknroll]

Andreas Lubitz had entered the chat.

He did what he did in a two crew operation…

[ruprecht]

He did what he did in a two crew operation…

That is correct. However, I can’t imagine spending hours alone in the middle of the night would be conducive to good mental health.

[Tucknroll]

That is correct. However, I can’t imagine spending hours alone in the middle of the night would be conducive to good mental health.

Depends who the person next to you is…

[ruprecht]

Depends who the person next to you is…
Haha, but even the bad ones give you something to talk about with the next bloke.

[Chronic Snoozer]

That is correct. However, I can’t imagine spending hours alone in the middle of the night would be conducive to good mental health.

It could be the one time having multiple personalities is useful, someone to talk to.

[Beer Baron]

Disturbing for safety? It’s no more disturbing than controlled rest.
Oh please, 20mins of controlled rest Vs potentially 4 hours single pilot in the middle of the night. One is never in a deep sleep during controlled rest so the recovery time is much shorter.

Additionally, with controlled rest, the pilot is already in the seat.
Handling a complex failure (QF30 oxy bottle explosion, QF72 ADIRU failure, QF44 multiple electrical failure) while having to additionally call the other pilot back from the crew rest, wait for them to get dressed, make their way back from the crew rest that’s above the cabin, comply with cockpit access protocols and return to the seat, while they are in a fog from waking from a deep sleep, is not the same as controlled rest.

Let alone the chance the single pilot has also now slipped into uncontrolled rest due to the shear boredom of being alone on a flight deck for hours in the middle of the night. Gonna be tough to react well now.

[KRviator]

That is correct. However, I can’t imagine spending hours alone in the middle of the night would be conducive to good mental health.Why not? I've done it for a decade driving trains under Driver Only Operation and I'm fine. I think. Put your music on, make a cuppa and get comfy and enjoy the trip. The difficult part is if you haven't got a good rest the day prior. Wonder if they'll have a Vigilance system installed to keep the pilot awake? Push a button every 5 minutes of an alarm goes off...

For CAsA or the FAA to deny it's certification, they're going to have to have hard data to support their position. Airbus and Cathay only have to argue there's an equivalent level of safety in single pilot operations as there is in two-pilot operations to get the approval I'd imagine. How they'll manage the concept of pilot incapacitation will be interesting, but given Rio Tinto have got approval for autonomous heavy haul trains, I wouldn't say this concept will never get approved! And yes, I'm well aware of the difference between planes, trains and automobiles, thank you very much, but for those thinking the second pilot is indispensable, think again, is all I'm saying...

[cloudsurfng]

I didnt watch the video. Australian governments have made life depressing enough.

what if you are the single pilot and you need to take a dump?

[ruprecht]

what if you are the single pilot and you need to take a dump?
You go drive trains, obviously.

[Keg]

For CAsA or the FAA to deny it's certification, they're going to have to have hard data to support their position.

Shouldn't it be on the manufacturers to show no decrease in risk profile? Straight up I can think of numerous things that make this option 'less safe'.

[Xeptu]

I don't see it as ever being one single pilot alone even though it's do-able. I do see the FO being a self contained robot. The hardest part of robotics is mobility, since it will be permanently seated that's not an issue. The rest has already been done, it just needs to evolve to the specific task. Because data is sharable from the Captains perspective it'll be like flying with the same robot every time.

10 years away I think and we'll start to see that as a happening thing.

[Lookleft]

The other issue regarding this great leap forward from Airbus is that Lufthansa has already said it won't be going down that path as it doesn't meet their safety criteria. One issue they identified was the issue BB addressed and that was the time taken for the other pilot to get back into the flight deck and up to speed on a possible emergency. So I don't think Qantas is going to go down the Cathay path but more than likely align itself with Lufthansa.

[Street garbage]

Has Qantas ordered the A350?
When was Mainline's last order? Oh, that's right December 2005, for the 787.
I don't know how this thread has diverged into Single Pilot A350 ops...but I seriously doubt this is going to be a factor for QF in the next 10 years, considering how risk adverse the QF Group and CASA are.

[Turnleft080]

How about a remake of "2001 Space Odyssey" that should scare the crap out of passengers.

Capt: Computer I'm off to the lav, you have control.
Comp: OK Capt I have control.
Capt: Computer I have fished up here you can let me in now password is ........
Comp: Sorry Capt I can't do that.
Capt: I'm the Capt let me in.
Comp: Sorry Capt you said I have control and that's what I have been programmed to do.
I have also disabled the flight deck door unlocking mechanism.

to be continued

[Sue Ridgepipe]

How about a remake of "2001 Space Odyssey" that should scare the crap out of passengers.

Capt: Computer I'm off to the lav, you have control.
Comp: OK Capt I have control.
Capt: Computer I have fished up here you can let me in now password is ........
Comp: Sorry Capt I can't do that.
Capt: I'm the Capt let me in.
Comp: Sorry Capt you said I have control and that's what I have been programmed to do.
I have also disabled the flight deck door unlocking mechanism.

to be continued
Just put the crapper inside the cockpit - problem solved.

[Blueskymine]

I don't see it as ever being one single pilot alone even though it's do-able. I do see the FO being a self contained robot. The hardest part of robotics is mobility, since it will be permanently seated that's not an issue. The rest has already been done, it just needs to evolve to the specific task. Because data is sharable from the Captains perspective it'll be like flying with the same robot every time.

10 years away I think and we'll start to see that as a happening thing.

Still flying the same jets that I started off flying in my jet career.

Some of the guys I’ve flown with retired flying the one jet for their entire career.

Something tells me I’ll still be flying this jet for the rest of my career too.

[bb744]

Hmmm, single pilot. Let's just brush aside without comment or consideration from a regulatory viewpoint, single pilot uncontrolled rest.. Has happened many times in the dual situation , activation electrodes next? Ha Ha. Heven forbid.

[Xeptu]

You guys are safe, it wont be a retrofit, new aircraft will be designed that way, single human pilot on the flight deck with no need to enter the cabin area at all. Sleeping lounge below for the resting crew member. I think Airbus is preparing us for it, prove it can be done single pilot so there is less argument with a much more sophisticated pilot. The flight deck is there for the human pilots benefit and as redundancy, but the robot won't need to look at and interpret any of the flight instruments. It has all that capability within itself and is self contained.
Imagine if we humans were able to see and know everything you need in our 3 dimensional environment without having to look at it.

[Paragraph377]

It doesn’t surprise me that ‘single flight deck operations’ has come up again. AI is being developed at an exponential rate. The corporate world see that as a means to remove the human interface. This logic also applies to risk management and predictive algorithms. The problem is, some intellects are hedging their bets that AI is ultimately smarter than a human being. Sure, there are some things that a computer can do faster but a computer doesn’t have a conscience, gut instinct or is able to smell or feel a problem at times before a human can. Even Elon Musk, love him or hate him, has said that AI is growing a rate of great concern.

[V-Jet]

I do get the point, but I'd FAR rather have AI in AJ's position than AJ - but I certainly wouldn't trust him on any flight deck.

[Zeta_Reticuli]

I do get the point, but I'd FAR rather have AI in AJ's position than AJ - but I certainly wouldn't trust him on any flight deck.
If there is any job that AI should be replacing humans in, it is management and administrative roles! I do not think AI could do a much worse job than the sycophants in the corporate world today!

[Capn Rex Havoc]

100% it will come. Sooner rather than later. When elevators became operator less, there was a huge back lash from the elevator operators - strikes etc. Execs stating they would use the stairs rather than an elevator without a human etc. Fast forward to today- If you saw an elevator operator in your building you would be bemused. The technology is definitely getting there for single pilot airline ops (and not much further on from that completely autonomous).

[MelbourneFlyer]

Claim of misguided Covid advice sparks legal action against Qantas

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/claim-of-misguided-covid-advice-sparks-legal-action-against-qantas/news-story/fb96d9f29c90f9344bfd6a2d573ba49e

Qantas advised cleaning staff in the early days of the pandemic that the virus could be transmitted only between people who shared a bed, and it could not survive for long on surfaces, the Transport Workers Union claims.

The misguided advice forms part of a new lawsuit brought by the union against the airline over the treatment of a cleaner who refused to service aircraft returning from China.

According to a statement of claim lodged in the Fair Work Commission, the part-time worker and union representative began receiving complaints from co-workers about the health risks posed by those flights in late January 2020.

When some of the cleaners *refused to board planes that had carried Chinese passengers, he told management at Qantas Ground Services they were within their rights to do so under the Workplace Health and Safety Act. The next day, a doctor engaged by Qantas addressed a meeting at QGS, telling those present it was very difficult for Covid-19 to be passed from one human to another unless they lived together, and shared utensils and a bed.

According to the cleaner’s recollection of the meeting, the doctor also claimed Covid-19 did not last long on surfaces.

When the cleaner escalated the matter by posting on a workplace Facebook group that there was a major risk to the extent the government had closed the border with China and workers had a legislative right to refuse unsafe work, he was called into a meeting with managers.

It was then decided to stand down the cleaner while an internal investigation was undertaken as he was “causing anxiety to workers”.

Qantas asserted the decision was made because the cleaner had tried to incite unprotected industrial action, and he should have known he was not authorised to direct other workers not to service aircraft from China.

The TWU’s statement of claim said the investigation into the cleaner’s conduct failed to progress, and then Qantas announced plans to outsource all its ground-handling operations.

As a result, the cleaner was made redundant and the investigation abandoned, leaving him “distressed, upset and anxious”.

In response to his treatment, the TWU claimed Qantas had taken prohibited adverse action by preventing him from exercising his rights as a health and safety representative, and sought relief in the form of compensation for “economic and non-economic loss”.

The union also asked that the commission impose a penalty on Qantas for “contraventions of the Fair Work Act” with any penalties levied to be paid to the TWU.

Qantas was expected to defend the allegations, pointing out there was not a single positive Covid case on flights back from China.

“We know this through extensive contract tracing done by health authorities at the time,” said a Qantas spokesman.

It is the latest in a string of lawsuits brought by the TWU against Qantas, relating to JobKeeper payments, sick leave entitlements and outsourcing.

In a recent judgment, the Federal Court ruled the outsourcing of 2000 ground-handling workers by Qantas was based on a prohibited reason, namely, concern they would strike in 2021 during enterprise negotiations.

[Lookleft]

100% it will come. Sooner rather than later. When elevators became operator less,

Yeah because elevators are just like aeroplanes...... When did autoland first get approved and when did Australia approve it? Humans had the technology to go to the moon and back in 1969 (technically 1968 without the landing bit) and yet here we are 50 years later still trying to reinvent the wheel. Just because technology exists doesn't automatically mean that it is going to be adopted on a scale that will make fundamental changes to the way flying is conducted. With the conservative approach taken to getting new technology certified in aviation then it will definitely be later rather than sooner before single pilot and zero pilot airliners are crossing vast amounts of international airspace. On top of that the planet is going to be cooked by 2030 according to the UN and air travel is going to have a lot more to worry about than replacing two biological, non-binary autopilots with their digital AI equivalents.

[Xeptu]

Yeah because elevators are just like aeroplanes...... When did autoland first get approved and when did Australia approve it? Humans had the technology to go to the moon and back in 1969 (technically 1968 without the landing bit) and yet here we are 50 years later still trying to reinvent the wheel. Just because technology exists doesn't automatically mean that it is going to be adopted on a scale that will make fundamental changes to the way flying is conducted. With the conservative approach taken to getting new technology certified in aviation then it will definitely be later rather than sooner before single pilot and zero pilot airliners are crossing vast amounts of international airspace. On top of that the planet is going to be cooked by 2030 according to the UN and air travel is going to have a lot more to worry about than replacing two biological, non-binary autopilots with their digital AI equivalents.

I see a future where there aren't a lot of us in it. No-one has a job as such, we don't want for anything and are truly equal. Treated more like exotic pets. An AI and machines that do everything, taken for granted and only a very few think how cool is that. :)

[Lookleft]

Thats where Marxism meets Asimov!

[Xeptu]

Thats where Marxism meets Asimov!

Indeed it does and validates both Marxism and Asimovs fourth law, if we are determined to cause our own extinction.
There's a movie titled "I AM MOTHER" which depicts that principle, worth a watch because it's relevant to todays technology.

[SHVC]

AJ will be long gone before project sunrise departs or single pilot jets ever arrive. QF will be fighting for survival for the next few yrs.

[Turnleft080]

Indeed it does and validates both Marxism and Asimovs fourth law, if we are determined to cause our own extinction.
There's a movie titled "I AM MOTHER" which depicts that principle, worth a watch because it's relevant to todays technology.

I AM MOTHER just saw the trailer on YouTube looks scary
These kids on this clip pretty much sums it up as well back in 1966. Atomic bombs, robots taking over, ice ages, living squashed, etc.
They look to be speaking their own mind, very much more articulate than todays kids and without social phone devices.
https://youtu.be/cwHib5wYEj8

[Lookleft]

My comment was firmly with my tongue in my cheek! All that movie highlights is what anti-nuclear, anti-vaxxer doomsday merchants looked like when they were at school. You do realise that they are the very boomers that you despise now for their wealth and free ride on society.

[TurningTheSpanners]

100% it will come. Sooner rather than later.

Much sooner?

Where's the navigator, radio operator and flight engineer?

In (most of) our lifetimes if someone had said that we'll be flying airplanes over the Pacific without a flight engineer they would have been thought crazy.

Heck, I can remember when we had flight engineers 'shooting the stars' on Christmas Island flights.

Possibly not our kids, but our grandkids will think nothing of getting in an airplane and seeing a flight attendant at the FAP entering..

FROM..YSSY T1 Gate 34 TO EGLL T3 Gate 29..GO

[Street garbage]

..and all this speculation about single pilot ops has what to do with Qantas Post Covid? Yeah, thought so...nothing

Start up another thread if you want to discuss this.

[Tucknroll]

As if a plane could do without two pilots! I still think they should have navigators and flight engineers. Hell, I’m worried about the safety reduction in not having a radio operator.

Wonder why we don’t have them?

It doesn’t even need to be AI, what’a one of the things you do when there’s an engineering fault? Call ground engineers who have up to date info on aircraft systems. You could very easily have a ground pilot to assist with workload for those first 5 mins.

[Paragraph377]

AJ will be long gone before project sunrise departs or single pilot jets ever arrive. QF will be fighting for survival for the next few yrs.
Agreed. As the ‘pandemic’ continues to bite into company profits I would say that things will get to a point where AJ doesn’t have many rocks left to overturn looking for pennies. And with limited options left with a dwindling profit base and a huge ego to maintain he will bail with his giant nest egg.

[ManillaChillaDilla]

Agreed. The next few years will be very lean for all involved in airlines.

There is an ex Australia Post CEO floating around that could fill the impending gap.

WATCH this space!.

MCD

[MelbourneFlyer]

Agreed. The next few years will be very lean for all involved in airlines.

There is an ex Australia Post CEO floating around that could fill the impending gap.

WATCH this space!.

MCD

No way is the job of Qantas Group CEO going to somebody who's not only from outside the airline but has no experience in the airline industry. Yes, I know this doesn't apply to all airlines, eg Air New Zealand has done well with its current and previous CEO picks, the idea is that the CEO needs to be a great exec and leader although still understand the people below them to 'get' the actual airline business.

But I have no doubt that Gareth Evans will follow Alan Joyce as CEO. Evans was former CFO, and Qantas seems to hold command of numbers in very very high esteem, then he moved to be CEO of Qantas International so he could get actual 'operating an airline' experience, then he moved over to Jetstar CEO which is where he is today so that he could show ability to run an entire airline and 'self-contained' business. And I can bet that Evans popped the champagne when Jayne Hrdlicka upped and left after moving from Jetstar CEO to Qantas Frequent Flyer CEO, when she headed off to NZ for A2 Milk, because she was chomping at the bit to be a CEO, but her leaving took Evans' only real internal competitor off the board.

So my take is that Alan Joyce will be followed by Gareth Evans, Olivia Wirth will move from being CEO of Qantas Loyalty to running either QF Cargo or JQ as a way of getting actual airline experience , and sure, former OzPost CEO Christine Holgate could be drafted in as CEO of Qantas Loyalty do 'introduce' her to the Qantas machine, but she'd still need to get actual running an airline experience before the Qantas board would offer her the CEO's chair.

[ManillaChillaDilla]

That was an attempt at humour.

I obviously need to re calibrate my material.

MCD

[AerialPerspective]

No way is the job of Qantas Group CEO going to somebody who's not only from outside the airline but has no experience in the airline industry. Yes, I know this doesn't apply to all airlines, eg Air New Zealand has done well with its current and previous CEO picks, the idea is that the CEO needs to be a great exec and leader although still understand the people below them to 'get' the actual airline business.

But I have no doubt that Gareth Evans will follow Alan Joyce as CEO. Evans was former CFO, and Qantas seems to hold command of numbers in very very high esteem, then he moved to be CEO of Qantas International so he could get actual 'operating an airline' experience, then he moved over to Jetstar CEO which is where he is today so that he could show ability to run an entire airline and 'self-contained' business. And I can bet that Evans popped the champagne when Jayne Hrdlicka upped and left after moving from Jetstar CEO to Qantas Frequent Flyer CEO, when she headed off to NZ for A2 Milk, because she was chomping at the bit to be a CEO, but her leaving took Evans' only real internal competitor off the board.

So my take is that Alan Joyce will be followed by Gareth Evans, Olivia Wirth will move from being CEO of Qantas Loyalty to running either QF Cargo or JQ as a way of getting actual airline experience , and sure, former OzPost CEO Christine Holgate could be drafted in as CEO of Qantas Loyalty do 'introduce' her to the Qantas machine, but she'd still need to get actual running an airline experience before the Qantas board would offer her the CEO's chair.

One thing that I did notice about Christine Holgate is the high esteem in which the 'shop floor' seem to hold her, people in Post Offices all over the country had put up signs "We stand with Christine". She must have made a decent impression. Not saying she's ready to be an airline CEO but some of that appeal and decent relationship building with the people who actually do the work wouldn't go astray in Qantas I feel.

[SHVC]

No, I think that was to do with the timing of her dismissal and events that embattled the PM around the same time. I won’t list them I’m sure you all could look them up.

[MelbourneFlyer]

One thing that I did notice about Christine Holgate is the high esteem in which the 'shop floor' seem to hold her, people in Post Offices all over the country had put up signs "We stand with Christine". She must have made a decent impression. Not saying she's ready to be an airline CEO but some of that appeal and decent relationship building with the people who actually do the work wouldn't go astray in Qantas I feel.

I agree 100% and the exact same 'shop floor' support seemed to apply to Paul Scurrah, he seemed super popular across the ranks at Virgin Australia, certainly much more so than John Borghetti. Qantas could certainly do with a big dose of that 'bringing people together' spirit from its next set of leaders.

[Telfer86]

Someone who isn't a screeching , boastful attention seeker & big noter
And who doesn't think he has an entitlement to make relentless demands for tax payer cash from both Federal & enumerable State Govts
& who doesn't think he is worth $10 mill a year, when he has lost $1.8 Billion since becoming CEO
Really running QF isn't that hard a job , it makes a profit on domestic as Govt/Corporate's sewn up & has had to see off two competitors over the last 25 years - both of which have
been directionless deadbeats
International where there is real competition , torn apart by CX/SIA in SE Asia , so weak didn't even bother contesting in China (largest tourist market), did OK to Nth America where the US carriers have never seriously competed on. QF International has been a sh*thouse outfit in a commercial sense for a long long time - & management & QF staff just whinge whinge whinge about how unfair it all is - having to actually compete in the Wide open world. If you couldn't make a buck in V strong economic times pre-Covid re: QF International - well you might think its all going to be a bit of challenge in the Covid era

Whereas when they effectively have a cartel with FF/Cred Cards & tie up with banks , Woolies etc to form "loyalty" - apparently this is some kind of f*****n brilliance.

Go figure hey ? I thought they were running a friggin airline , taking pax from A to B , but just not to China - too hard too hard boo hoo

Why have so many of the Australian Airline CEO's been smarmy showmen, with their accompanying funkster hairstyles ?, big talkies but the delivery side of the equation just doesn't go so well

Don't we have an Australian version of someone like fmr ANZ CEO Rob Fyfe - maybe someone should give Rob a tingle ?

[blubak]

Someone who isn't a screeching , boastful attention seeker & big noter
And who doesn't think he has an entitlement to make relentless demands for tax payer cash from both Federal & enumerable State Govts
& who doesn't think he is worth $10 mill a year, when he has lost $1.8 Billion since becoming CEO
Really running QF isn't that hard a job , it makes a profit on domestic as Govt/Corporate's sewn up & has had to see off two competitors over the last 25 years - both of which have
been directionless deadbeats
International where there is real competition , torn apart by CX/SIA in SE Asia , so weak didn't even bother contesting in China (largest tourist market), did OK to Nth America where the US carriers have never seriously competed on. QF International has been a sh*thouse outfit in a commercial sense for a long long time - & management & QF staff just whinge whinge whinge about how unfair it all is - having to actually compete in the Wide open world. If you couldn't make a buck in V strong economic times pre-Covid re: QF International - well you might think its all going to be a bit of challenge in the Covid era

Whereas when they effectively have a cartel with FF/Cred Cards & tie up with banks , Woolies etc to form "loyalty" - apparently this is some kind of f*****n brilliance.

Go figure hey ? I thought they were running a friggin airline , taking pax from A to B , but just not to China - too hard too hard boo hoo

Why have so many of the Australian Airline CEO's been smarmy showmen, with their accompanying funkster hairstyles ?, big talkies but the delivery side of the equation just doesn't go so well

Don't we have an Australian version of someone like fmr ANZ CEO Rob Fyfe - maybe someone should give Rob a tingle ?
Thats a really good analysis,you could probably add 'a spoilt little brat who throws a tantrum every time someone opposes him or challenges his opinion'.
He is the head hauncho of the back slappers club who have no problem in telling everyone how good they are & how they care & understand,the only thing him & his hangers on forget to say is that their feelings only apply to themselves.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Agreed. As the ‘pandemic’ continues to bite into company profits I would say that things will get to a point where AJ doesn’t have many rocks left to overturn looking for pennies. And with limited options left with a dwindling profit base and a huge ego to maintain he will bail with his giant nest egg.

I think you’re looking at a different set of stats than the rest of us. QF is in an excellent financial position. They will dominate the region post COVID.

[SHVC]

AJ is doing a good job, TBH there would be no other CEO you (I) would want in this current time. Ppl forget he is the boss and a lot disagree with the boss just because some things don't go their way. But hey, lets swap him out for JB, MM, PS or even JH if she stayed.......hell no to all! If GE gets the call up, he will be a good choice and considering what he is doing at JQ which I think is good he will lead the group and we will still have careers in the future thats if the Government does not kill the economy. The next couple or so yrs will be difficult for any operator in Australia and VA with their secret squirrel books now are not doing any better, there is an impending recession coming and it will hit hard Australians have no idea I remember PK speech very well in '1990, and who remember those interest rates! The world is getting on with business they cant afford not to Australia needs to also, waiting for arbitrary percentage vaccination rate that there is no uniform agreement on is pointless. U.S.A didn't have this why do we.

[Street garbage]

Speaking of management changes..... Rumour on the Street today...is that a former AIPA President has completed his WK/ CM training, and has been newly promoted to the lofty position of "QF Group Industrial Relations Manager".. anybody care to confirm?

[crosscutter]

Speaking of management changes..... Rumour on the Street today...is that a former AIPA President has completed his WK/ CM training, and has been newly promoted to the lofty position of "QF Group Industrial Relations Manager".. anybody care to confirm?

Yes, that is correct. However, there are a dozen others with a similar title in the company including the Oldmeadows. I know this will be an unpopular opinion but here we go. Their job is to make a **** sandwich taste ok. They are another minion implementing cost initiatives from above. Having someone who knows pilots and the agreement is good and bad. Personally, I couldn’t care less what title he has. I’d suggest his next involvement is Jetstar.

Finally, I wouldn’t be seen dead doing what he is doing. Why pilots continue to avail themselves to work on the HQ side amazes me. Just don’t come back to a pilots seat and then moan about HQ. You won’t have my ear.

[Ascend Charlie]

The cabin crews (on no pay for the last 2 years) have been asked to take on 23-hour duty periods, to allow BN-Singapore-BN without a stopover. This is in the A330 which does not have a proper crew rest area. How will a crew member cope with an emergency evacuation after being awake for some hours, then doing a 23-hour shift?

But it saves the cost of an overnight allowance, so give yourself a pat on the back, and take yesterday off.

[crosscutter]

But it saves the cost of an overnight allowance, so give yourself a pat on the back, and take yesterday off.

I’m sure that’s not the motivation. Quarantine relief, travel bubbles. Sometimes we think everything is about screwing us over. Now don’t get me wrong, the issues about crew rest and duty length are valid and something to sort out. If scoot and sing air do all the flying then we would all still be throwing stones.

[hotnhigh]

Speaking of management changes..... Rumour on the Street today...is that a former AIPA President has completed his WK/ CM training, and has been newly promoted to the lofty position of "QF Group Industrial Relations Manager".. anybody care to confirm?
you can just check his LinkedIn profile. It’s all there.

[Bad Adventures]

Ascend Charlie, you’re posting BS as usual. The 23 hour tour of duty request for cabin crew is for single sector duties only, not returns. Get your facts straight.

[AerialPerspective]

I agree 100% and the exact same 'shop floor' support seemed to apply to Paul Scurrah, he seemed super popular across the ranks at Virgin Australia, certainly much more so than John Borghetti. Qantas could certainly do with a big dose of that 'bringing people together' spirit from its next set of leaders.

They got it in the mid-80s when John Menadue came along - things changed really quickly in terms of what in modern management speak 'engagement'. What he did was simple, but seems to elude most current management - he just asked the people that do the work "What works and what doesn't work and you do the job so you tell us how to best do it".

IMHO JB was incompetent. People were running around making dumb moves and decisions not based on logic but because 'he' wanted it that way. I am aware of the supposed basis of some of the decisions he made and they were incorrect. I cannot see that anything that John Thomas did was worthy of his departure, except that he disagreed with the mail room boy. From all accounts Scurrah was very quickly able to establish a good rapport with the coalface and I liked that he slaughtered a few of the MRB's sacred cows such as emphatically refusing to ever have positioning Tech Crew in J Class but thinking that his a-rse was somehow required to be there.

The right CEO can keep a business profitable while motivating the people very quickly. It's not hard to do, it just takes forthrightness and doing what you say you're going to do. The problems of VA were always subjected, when someone came up with a good idea, the response 'there's a project underway to look at that' - which of course, there never was, it was just a fob-off.

[Wingspar]

Speaking of management changes..... Rumour on the Street today...is that a former AIPA President has completed his WK/ CM training, and has been newly promoted to the lofty position of "QF Group Industrial Relations Manager".. anybody care to confirm?

It will be good to have someone in there who will understand the pilots point of view.
Thats not to say we will get our way but at least someone will understand the language.
I see it as a positive.

[ScepticalOptomist]

It will be good to have someone in there who will understand the pilots point of view.
Thats not to say we will get our way but at least someone will understand the language.
I see it as a positive.

Me too - never had an issue with AIPA guys moving to the company.

[Street garbage]

It will be good to have someone in there who will understand the pilots point of view.
Thats not to say we will get our way but at least someone will understand the language.
I see it as a positive.

"Understand our Language"...as in sign here, or we will set up a Contract Company?

[V-Jet]

"Understand our Language"...as in sign here, or we will set up a Contract Company?

I'm sure you meant 'and' instead of 'or'...

[Street garbage]

I'm sure you meant 'and' instead of 'or'...

Touche...works domestically, why not give international a go...

[aussieflyboy]

Are QF stopping the Alliance E-Jets doing ADL - ASP - DRW now that the 737s aren’t working flat out? The original media release said:

“The use of E190s will also free up Qantas’ Boeing 737 aircraft to be redeployed across the domestic network.”

I assume the 737s that are unable to fly to SYD or MEL due lockdowns will take back their original routes again?

I’m sure QF management wouldn’t stand down 737 and 717 (isn’t their head office in ADL?) crew while a contractor was flying under the Qantas call sign?

[blubak]

Are QF stopping the Alliance E-Jets doing ADL - ASP - DRW now that the 737s aren’t working flat out? The original media release said:

“The use of E190s will also free up Qantas’ Boeing 737 aircraft to be redeployed across the domestic network.”

I assume the 737s that are unable to fly to SYD or MEL due lockdowns will take back their original routes again?

I’m sure QF management wouldn’t stand down 737 and 717 (isn’t their head office in ADL?) crew while a contractor was flying under the Qantas call sign?
Think the chances of that happening are about the same as the chances of ASP or DRW having snow today.

[Brakerider]

It's pretty despicable that contractors are allowed to take this kind of work in Australia. Why don't we have scope clauses in our contracts like in the USA? Anything bigger than a Q400 should be flown by mainline pilots to stop this continuous undercutting.

[Jetsbest]

You must be new here.:}

Pilots & contracts in the USA got ‘scope’ clauses in the ‘60s. By the time pilots in Oz realised that it might be a good idea, management had the firmly-entrenched mindset that ‘scope’ would NEVER be countenanced here! I’ve been told that Qantas pilots, in the ‘90s, once offered substantial offsets to gain ‘scope’ and were firmly rebuffed at the time.

One could say that we now know why.:rolleyes:

[aussieflyboy]

Would make a good article in the newspaper:

“Contract Pilots Flying Kangaroo Routes Whilst Qantas Pilots Stood Down”

[JoeTripodi]

Adding to the theme of scummy behaviour, 3/5 of the 717 bases are being stood down from tomorrow whilst 14 new pilots continue to be started this month on full pay.

[Lapon]

Adding to the theme of scummy behaviour, 3/5 of the 717 bases are being stood down from tomorrow whilst 14 new pilots continue to be started this month on full pay.


But in the interests of providing the whole story:

Those pilots wont actually be line training. They are starting ground/sim training and will stood down if required as happened to new hires last year.

[Chronic Snoozer]

But in the interests of providing the whole story:

Those pilots wont actually be line training. They are starting ground/sim training and will stood down if required as happened to new hires last year.

New starts are on training pay?

[JoeTripodi]

Not sure how you can justify an addition of new staff AFTER standing down other existing staff within the same company. There is no training pay they start on the same as pay as a checked to line FO.

[Lapon]

Not sure how you can justify an addition of new staff AFTER standing down other existing staff within the same company. There is no training pay they start on the same as pay as a checked to line FO.

Because existing line pilots do not need to do ground/sim training over the coming weeks/months.
Halting new starts would do nothing to help the existing line pilots who have no/minimal line flying to do.

Now if initial line training was being conducted while leaving existing crews stood down that would be a concern, however I am led to believe that's not the case, nor was it last year.

[KBNA]

Because existing line pilots do not need to do ground/sim training over the coming weeks/months.
Halting new starts would do nothing to help the existing line pilots who have no/minimal line flying to do.

Now if initial line training was being conducted while leaving existing crews stood down that would be a concern, however I am led to believe that's not the case, nor was it last year.
Lapon the company has already indicated that if there is some flying to be done in Melbourne or Brisbane then these new hires will remain stood up whilst other bases and pilots within those 2 bases are stood down. Sounds like you are drinking too much Kool Aid

[neville_nobody]

Not sure how you can justify an addition of new staff AFTER standing down other existing staff within the same company. There is no training pay they start on the same as pay as a checked to line FO.

Airlines are looking at the world and seeing exploding growth of flights. However the issue here is they may never get that opportunity as the State Governments do their best to destroy the country and bankrupt everyone in the process.

[Street garbage]

Covid has only served to accelerate the demise of Mainline. Qantas goal in the last 30 years is to destroy Union influence, outsource as many Services as possible, casualise the workforce and if they are unable to do these things, grow external entities to "consume" what was operated under Legacy Conditions (think Swissair/ Menzies/ Alliance/ Network).. The Cost Savings achieved have not been re-invested in the Mainline Product- eg the last mainline aircraft order was December 2005 (787)- and not even returned to shareholders, but has been used to en-richen the Elite Management few, and has been used to in injecting funds into the Jetstar Asia/ Vietnam/ Japan. (return on capital anyone?).
Post covid, with the long term reduction in business travel, it will only be worse. Despite the Company spruiking that the 737 will "be redeployed to other services" the Alliance operated ADL-ASP-DRW is the thin edge of the latest wedge.The VX 737's are over 20 years old, they will NOT be replaced one for one, there will be a small order of 73 Max or A320/ 321 mix to replace around 35 aircraft, who knows when and you only have to look at the quote by the COO to wonder who will operate them.
As for long haul the A350 will be ideal in the post-covid world, but the longer they at least commit to an order..
A380..who knows, but if it doesn't operate again there will be a massive RIN, and probably another VR (hopefully no CR..)
Add into the mix the requirement for an A330 replacement in the next 5-10 years (can anyone confirm that 4 are to be made freighters??).

Anyway, if 30 odd years in QF has taught me anything- management will look after themselves (apparently the current 737 could have been avoided, but AD/AJ insisted) and for the rest of us..the future is as clear as koolaid.

Look after yourselves people, ring/ text your mates, because as the Yammer episode shows- the Company couldn't give a stuff.

[DirectAnywhere]

I'd be quite happy just to get CR'd now and get out of the place.

[Lookleft]

Not going to happen but if jetstar offered me something reasonable then my ASIC, Ipad and Hi-vis would be handed in and I would be out the door quicker than a paratrooper on D-Day.

[SHVC]

Not going to happen but if jetstar offered me something reasonable then my ASIC, Ipad and Hi-vis would be handed in and I would be out the door quicker than a paratrooper on D-Day.

Reasonable….and what would that be for you sir? Long time QF pilot it might not be up your ally.

[Lookleft]

Two years base pay would do very nicely-thats NB base pay. It depends entirely on your situation and your expectations.

[blubak]

I'd be quite happy just to get CR'd now and get out of the place.
I was there for 30+ yrs & when CR was offered i didnt have to think twice,of course there are many that it wouldnt suit & each to their own.
When i heard about the alliance deal,1 of the things i mentioned was that its been no secret for a while now that some 738s(mostly the newer series) were on expensive leases that didnt have long to go & for me it wasnt hard to see the e jets replacing those hi cost 738s which of course eliminated hi cost crews.
Obviously the e jets dont carry the same amount of pax but if the demand is there qf will just tell alliance to put another service on & of course they wont argue & neither will the crews as they know there are plenty of pilots out there just waiting for a call & a seat on the flight deck.

[SHVC]

Two years base pay would do very nicely-thats NB base pay. It depends entirely on your situation and your expectations.

JQ is awesome great pilots great cabin crew great C&T department I love it. I misunderstood you expecting a call up for an exceptional offer for you join. When times are busy you do work your a$$ off which is bearable because of points 1 & 2.

[Turnleft080]

Qantas just announced all staff to be vaxed by 15 Nov. Now being mandated officially as the we have been debating on Pprune.

[turbantime]

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media-releases/qantas-group-to-require-employees-to-be-vaccinated-against-covid-19/

[Agent_86]

Qantas to mandate vaccines for frontline staff by NovemberBy Nick BonyhadyQantas has announced it will require its frontline staff to be fully vaccinated against coronavirus by November, joining SPC as the second major Australian company to commit to the move (https://www.smh.com.au/link/follow-20170101-p58ikb).

In a statement, the company said its decision to mandate had been backed by a staff survey showing an overwhelming majority of its workforce either were vaccinated or planned to be and many supported mandatory jabs.

https://static.ffx.io/images/$zoom_0.136%2C$multiply_0.4431%2C$ratio_1.5%2C$width_756%2C$ x_0%2C$y_0/t_crop_custom/q_86%2Cf_auto/1ebb2f814cad66d157964c31791e3c0230fa0d1c

“One crew member can fly into multiple cities and come into contact with thousands of people in a single day,” said Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce.

“Making sure they are vaccinated given the potential of this virus to spread is so important and I think it’s the kind of safety leadership people would expect from us.”

[Jet Jockey]

By AJ’s own admission flying now carries much more risk especially for international crew. Sounds like remuneration will need to increase dramatically to compensate for the increased risk.
As for mandatory vaccination. I am very interested to know how blood clots on the lungs would impact on a pilot medical as it is one of the questions asked in the annual pilot medical questionnaire. Is Allan going to meet the cost of loss of licence insurance.

[Foxxster]

By AJ’s own admission flying now carries much more risk especially for international crew. Sounds like remuneration will need to increase dramatically to compensate for the increased risk.
As for mandatory vaccination. I am very interested to know how blood clots on the lungs would impact on a pilot medical as it is one of the questions asked in the annual pilot medical questionnaire. Is Allan going to meet the cost of loss of licence insurance.

If you lose your licence, you will be redeployed as Alan’s cabin boy.

[Xeptu]

What happened to the mantra "it's very unlikely you would be infected in an aircraft" at the beginning of the pandemic.

[chuboy]

What happened to the mantra "it's very unlikely you would be infected in an aircraft" at the beginning of the pandemic.
Have you not been reading the news? There are variants with far high transmissibility that were not around at the beginning of the pandemic.

It was always spurious to claim transmission on an aircraft was impossible anyway.