Qantas...Post COVID

[Transition Layer]

Yeah because they’re clearly making shedloads of money right now, you idiot :ugh:
Sniffing around QF threads again I see, offering your pearls of wisdom!

Unlike LCC pilots chasing quick commands and measly bucks, we QF people like to look at the long term, and for this reason a pay freeze will be unpalatable for many. We’ve been down this road before and know exactly how it ends...with huge bonuses paid to Execs due to amazing transformations, recoveries etc etc.

[morno]

Sniffing around QF threads again I see, offering your pearls of wisdom!

Unlike LCC pilots chasing quick commands and measly bucks, we QF people like to look at the long term, and for this reason a pay freeze will be unpalatable for many. We’ve been down this road before and know exactly how it ends...with huge bonuses paid to Execs due to amazing transformations, recoveries etc etc.

Go on then, go stamp your foot about your pay freeze. See how far you get when a great deal of your fleet is parked in the desert, a tonne of your pilots are driving busses, and the borders are firmly shut.

The mind boggles how you think you are entitled to increasing pay when your airline is in the scenario it is.

[aussieflyboy]

Go on then, go stamp your foot about your pay freeze. See how far you get when a great deal of your fleet is parked in the desert, a tonne of your pilots are driving busses, and the borders are firmly shut.

The mind boggles how you think you are entitled to increasing pay when your airline is in the scenario it is.

Calm down son.

Some of us never had our fleet parked. Pilots were always flying and continuing to make money for this company. Yet we are now forced to take an effective pay cut for the next 2 years.

[Transition Layer]

Go on then, go stamp your foot about your pay freeze. See how far you get when a great deal of your fleet is parked in the desert, a tonne of your pilots are driving busses, and the borders are firmly shut.

The mind boggles how you think you are entitled to increasing pay when your airline is in the scenario it is.

It’s because we aren’t naive and gullible. And nor it seems is Elizabeth Knight

https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/how-can-an-airline-boost-cash-flow-in-a-pandemic-ask-alan-joyce-20210520-p57tp0.html

[engine out]

Question,
When Qantas crew return to Australia from an international flight are they required to request an exemption from NSW health everytime to go home to self isolate?

Yes they are. If they’ve come in through Darwin the quarantine period also doesn’t start until they reach NSW

[blubak]

It’s because we aren’t naive and gullible. And nor it seems is Elizabeth Knight

https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/how-can-an-airline-boost-cash-flow-in-a-pandemic-ask-alan-joyce-20210520-p57tp0.html
Lots of truth in her article,she & many others are not naive & gullible & buckle under AJ's word whenever he tries to bully whoever he feels like.
He is telling us now we need get vaccinated,that is none of his business but as usual he thinks he knows everything & has an opinion on everything.
Nobody is suggesting his airline hasnt & isnt suffering but when he uses that to push his agenda on many other issues it just shows what makes him tick.
Good luck to all still working for him,you are the lifeline of the company but he has never been noble enough to recognise your efforts,he just wants more,more,more.

[ExtraShot]

I think one of the best mechanisms to ensure that money saved from ‘pay freezes’ and caps on pay increases, doesn’t just end up as management bonuses, is to have an incentive scheme similar to what the short haul award currently contains.

It might not be perfect, but At least it ensures that when the turn around comes and the bonuses are flowing, that there is a contractual obligation to share in the success.

It should cost nothing to have this type of scheme implemented in every award as they are signed up for this pay freeze, to have it sitting there ready for when the profits and management bonuses begin to flow again.

[ruprecht]

Random thought:

Can Qantas post a profit with crew stood down.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

The mind boggles how you think you are entitled to increasing pay when your airline is in the scenario it is.

Possibly because the company railroaded through a LH EA, with pay rises, when the current scenario was already very apparent?

[Keg]

Random thought:

Can Qantas post a profit with crew stood down.

Yes, but they won’t want to which is why they’ll find a bunch of things to write off and declare a loss.

[Fonz121]

Random thought:

Can Qantas post a profit with crew stood down.

I’m sure they can but it would be highly unethical.

Imo, the stand down provisions should be null and void as soon as the company posts any kind of profit. But what Keg said.

[blubak]

I’m sure they can but it would be highly unethical.

Imo, the stand down provisions should be null and void as soon as the company posts any kind of profit. But what Keg said.
Would being unethical worry them?
Im guessing they would bleat about their great management skills & convince everyone what a great job they are doing whilst lining their pockets at the same time.

[hillbillybob]

For those that got their EBA in pre COVID (LH and SH) in the unlikely event they are still pushing wage freezes by the time the next one comes around they are looking at 14 or 15% pay rises in the period 2019 to 2025

J* and the links are looking at 10% for the same period all due to the change in “wage policy” all while inflation figure will be around 15%.

so the mainline guys will just about maintain salary to cost of living over the period. The rest won’t. It is amazing what can be done with the stroke of a pen

[ManillaChillaDilla]

There must be a few PIA proponents in the AFAP feeling rather childlike and foolish now.

Well done. Great stratergy. 32 years past and still nothing learnt.

MCD

[FightDeck]

If you think profit or no profit has anything to do with the legality of stand down you need to consult a barrister.
Hint. It’s not a major factor.
The pay freeze is a red herring.
Many pilots have already had 2 years of a 100% pay cut in the hundreds of thousands.The compound loss of money yet alone struggling to feed a family or pay a mortgage.The treatment of pilots by Qantas is disgusting, particularly given certain pilot managers haven’t done a single day of stand down and have little work to perform.
The lack of people giving a f$#@& when they return will be enlightened for them.When you treat people like s&$# then you deserve it.Don’t suspect they care given they are alright jack.

[das Uber Soldat]

Unlike LCC pilots chasing quick commands and measly bucks, we QF people like to look at the long term.
Is it hard to type with your head jammed entirely up your own ass?

[ManillaChillaDilla]

Unlike LCC pilots chasing quick commands and measly bucks, we QF people like to look at the long term notes " Transition Layer".

The simplistic structure of that one sentence unfortunately says it all.

With a post worded as such, you can only asume its a wind up.

MCD

[Tucknroll]

Unlike LCC pilots chasing quick commands and measly bucks, we QF people like to look at the long term notes " Transition Layer".

The simplistic structure of that one sentence unfortunately says it all.

With a post worded as such, you can only asume its a wind up.

MCD

A wind up or just a product of the fact that it takes around 30 years to long haul command? Most qantas pilots I know make bids tactically because the pay scales and promotions do not represent a linear pay rise. The days of taking the first upgrade available ended over a decade ago. Why? Because under normal circumstances a senior 4 engined S/O would earn far more money for significantly fewer duty hours than their colleagues of similar seniority who took FO positions in short haul

[morno]

Is it hard to type with your head jammed entirely up your own ass?

Best post ever.

By the way Transition Layer, if you don’t want people like myself posting on a public forum about a topic concerning Qantas, suggest you take it somewhere else.

[blubak]

If you think profit or no profit has anything to do with the legality of stand down you need to consult a barrister.
Hint. It’s not a major factor.
The pay freeze is a red herring.
Many pilots have already had 2 years of a 100% pay cut in the hundreds of thousands.The compound loss of money yet alone struggling to feed a family or pay a mortgage.The treatment of pilots by Qantas is disgusting, particularly given certain pilot managers haven’t done a single day of stand down and have little work to perform.
The lack of people giving a f$#@& when they return will be enlightened for them.When you treat people like s&$# then you deserve it.Don’t suspect they care given they are alright jack.
This applies to everyone,not only pilots but what you have said in your post is spot on,they dont give a s&$# about anyone..

[Transition Layer]

Best post ever.

By the way Transition Layer, if you don’t want people like myself posting on a public forum about a topic concerning Qantas, suggest you take it somewhere else.
I must have hit a raw nerve!

I’d love to find another forum without you stalking Qantas threads morno, but it’s also hard to see with my head up my arse.

[Keg]

Keg’s Law: The longer a PPRUNE discussion about Qantas goes on the greater chance there is of it turning into a mainline v JQ stoush.

[AerialPerspective]

I’m sure they can but it would be highly unethical.

Imo, the stand down provisions should be null and void as soon as the company posts any kind of profit. But what Keg said.

Really???? So, the company is supposed to keep paying or keep on the books, people who have no work to do and are not likely to until 2022.... THEN, having made them redundant, they MUST employ them again if they make 'any kind of profit' - OK, so if they make $1.00c profit, you reckon they should re-employ them all, even if there's still no work for them.

Seriously, I wonder what sort of feather-bedded bubble some people live in. Qantas is a publicly listed company, they are ultimately required to produce a return on invested capital by the shareholders. No company can be held to guarantee re-employment if they make 'any kind of profit'. That is simply la-la land and completely unrealistic....... apply this to ANY other business, for instance, if you owned shares in a restaurant chain, with half the restaurants closed across the country because of, gee, let me think, a months long pandemic - would you want the chain to go bust and lose your investment because they just kept staff on when there was no prospect of work for a year or more.

No business can be expected to do that, no business can survive by doing that.

Need I remind anyone that VA kept putting staff on and putting staff on and negotiating EBA after EBA with increased wages and in some cases, zero productivity increase, the shareholders swallowed it over and over again while billions were spent on frivolous items, aircraft leases were exorbitant, bonuses paid every year and what happened in the end....... then they restarted and got rid of all but 6000 of their staff....

[John Citizen]

Qantas is a publicly listed company, they are ultimately required to produce a return on invested capital by the shareholders


I apologise if I am wrong but I always thought Qantas was an airline and their primary purpose was to provide an "airline service". Since when were they some type of investment company with return on capital to shareholders being their primary goal? :confused:

[TimmyTee]

I apologise if I am wrong but I always thought Qantas was an airline and their primary purpose was to provide an "airline service". Since when were they some type of investment company with return on capital to shareholders being their primary goal? :confused:
July 1995.

[ruprecht]

Really???? So, the company is supposed to keep paying or keep on the books, people who have no work to do and are not likely to until 2022.... THEN, having made them redundant, they MUST employ them again if they make 'any kind of profit' - OK, so if they make $1.00c profit, you reckon they should re-employ them all, even if there's still no work for them.

No-one has been made redundant, so no-one has to be re-employed. All stood down crew are still employed, just not getting paid. Important difference.

I know several long-term stood down crew who would welcome redundancy at the moment just to try and gain some certainty. Or perhaps more accurately, they would be seeking to remove uncertainty.

[Ollie Onion]

I agree the treatment of staff has been woeful, I can understand stand downs of 3 months but when you are telling people there will be no useful work for 3 years you should do the right thing and allow those who want it to take redundancy. Saying you won’t do that as you will need the pilots in 3 years time is just appalling, turns my stomach every time we get an email from management thanking us for being so resilient, I was only stood down for 3 months and that was stressful enough, I feel so sorry for those still with the uncertainty. I am not saying Qantas is responsible for this situation but they could have definitely been more proactive in providing options for the worst effected crew, I couldn’t care less about a 2 year pay freeze, it is inevitable in the current environment.

[theheadmaster]

I agree the treatment of staff has been woeful, I can understand stand downs of 3 months but when you are telling people there will be no useful work for 3 years you should do the right thing and allow those who want it to take redundancy. Saying you won’t do that as you will need the pilots in 3 years time is just appalling, turns my stomach every time we get an email from management thanking us for being so resilient, I was only stood down for 3 months and that was stressful enough, I feel so sorry for those still with the uncertainty. I am not saying Qantas is responsible for this situation but they could have definitely been more proactive in providing options for the worst effected crew, I couldn’t care less about a 2 year pay freeze, it is inevitable in the current environment.

For good or for bad, the company is limited to acting within the Agreement. Look at clause 15.10.1 and 15.6.

[C441]

I wonder how many takers they'd get if they offered another round of voluntary redundancies to the Longhaul Pilot group now….

[ScepticalOptomist]

For good or for bad, the company is limited to acting within the Agreement. Look at clause 15.10.1 and 15.6.

No, the company can choose not to keep you stood down.
Like they have done for every other problem prior to CV.

[theheadmaster]

Unfortunately, what would VR do for the company? Cost them more than stand down and leave them short of pilots when the borders open.

[theheadmaster]

No, the company can choose not to keep you stood down.
Like they have done for every other problem prior to CV.

My response was with respect to compulsory redundancy.

[ScepticalOptomist]

My response was with respect to compulsory redundancy.

Apologies - I misunderstood.

[Ollie Onion]

I am not talkimg CR, it may cost the Company more to offer some VR to the pilots looking at a 3 year Stand Down, my point is that it is bordering on inhumane to keep these guys ‘attached’ if they dont want to be just to force them back after a 3 year stand down. If the Company offered VR and people take it then great, if no one takes ot then they are happy to remain. Doing the right thing can cost some money sometimes.

[Lookleft]

Whats the difference between what QF have done and what often happens in the US with furloughs?

[Keg]

Stand down is probably a bit better than furlough because at least people are accruing AL and LSL along the way. Not sure if furlough has that benefit.

That said, I don’t reckon stand down was ever intended for this sort of ongoing situation, or a situation where parts of the company have work and other parts of the company have zero.

I suspect stand downs on the A380 is going to be a sad fact of life whilst other LH fleets still have rolling stand downs (due to international border closures). My personal opinion is that once borders are open and other LH fleets are back flying then the lack of A380 flying looks more like a commercial decision and stand down becomes very hard to justify. I suspect QF know this and are trying to work out how they solve that problem in about 12 months time.

[ruprecht]

I suspect stand downs on the A380 is going to be a sad fact of life

Another sad fact is that, statistically at least, a few stood down crew will develop a career limiting medical issue with zero access to sick leave. I think the company is banking on this and I think that is unconscionable.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Stand down is probably a bit better than furlough because at least people are accruing AL and LSL along the way. Not sure if furlough has that benefit.

That said, I don’t reckon stand down was ever intended for this sort of ongoing situation, or a situation where parts of the company have work and other parts of the company have zero.

I suspect stand downs on the A380 is going to be a sad fact of life whilst other LH fleets still have rolling stand downs (due to international border closures). My personal opinion is that once borders are open and other LH fleets are back flying then the lack of A380 flying looks more like a commercial decision and stand down becomes very hard to justify. I suspect QF know this and are trying to work out how they solve that problem in about 12 months time.

The worrying part of this is there is no desire to test the legality of this. The AIPA don’t seem to want to ask the hard questions, and if they won’t fight for the pilot group, who will?

How can the company use rotating stand ups? There either is useful work or there isn’t. If there isn’t ENOUGH useful work - you have too many staff and should follow the EBA process to resolve that. Too expensive? Might need them shortly? Then pay a minimum retainer - as per the EBA.

We should be pushing harder to have everyone stood up. Don’t tell me they can’t do it - govt assistance package plus domestic capacity means they have the resources.

[morno]

The worrying part of this is there is no desire to test the legality of this. The AIPA don’t seem to want to ask the hard questions, and if they won’t fight for the pilot group, who will?

How can the company use rotating stand ups? There either is useful work or there isn’t. If there isn’t ENOUGH useful work - you have too many staff and should follow the EBA process to resolve that. Too expensive? Might need them shortly? Then pay a minimum retainer - as per the EBA.

We should be pushing harder to have everyone stood up. Don’t tell me they can’t do it - govt assistance package plus domestic capacity means they have the resources.

So it’s viable to run A380’s domestically just so that every pilot can fly a few times a month?

I’m not sure your investors would agree with that when it’s losing them more money.

[Roj approved]

These are genuine questions, I don’t have a dog in this fight, but I do feel for all of the guys/girls in this predicament.

How many of the A380 pilots will be approaching 65 within the next 12-24 months?

What happens then? Forced retirement?

Where do they stand then for bidding to the SH? (Pending any vacancies of course)

Ie: can you bid while “stood down”

Of the <65 group, are there any positions for them to bid to?

If you are late in your ‘50’s and a F/O, is there enough time for you to find a left seat before you retire?

What of the S/O’s? They must be looking at a long stay on the sidelines?

How long can they be on LWOP for before?

What happens at the end of the LWOP?

Now, if they retire the aircraft, then all these problems become the company’s problem through the RIN process, so it would appear that will be an option QF won’t want to take.

All the best to everyone in this predicament, a terrible situation. Take care of yourselves and your families, and we are all hoping for smooth skies in the not to distant future.

[C441]

The worrying part of this is there is no desire to test the legality of this. The AIPA don’t seem to want to ask the hard questions, and if they won’t fight for the pilot group, who will?
Maybe they have, albeit not through the courts. There are plenty of CoM members who are stood-down 380 Pilots. I'd be very surprised if they are not exploring every possible avenue you see all Longhaul Pilots stood-up, including themselves.

[DUXNUTZ]

Whats the difference between what QF have done and what often happens in the US with furloughs?

This merry go-round we escaped lots of furloughs in the states by extended leaves offered and early retirements. REGARDLESS, in all instances seniority was not infringed.

The policy of forced stand downs is a genie you won’t get back in the bottle. It’ll prob be used for the next crisis and the one after that.

[Keg]

The worrying part of this is there is no desire to test the legality of this. The AIPA don’t seem to want to ask the hard questions, and if they won’t fight for the pilot group, who will?

Have you spoken to AIPA about the legal advice they’ve obtained? Last year and again this year that advice is unchanged. You’re suggesting AIPA launch a costly court case contrary to legal advice to ‘test’ the stand down?


How can the company use rotating stand ups? There either is useful work or there isn’t. If there isn’t ENOUGH useful work - you have too many staff and should follow the EBA process to resolve that.

You’re suggesting that from April last year we should have RIN’d all the A380 and 747 pilots to the A330 and 787, most of the Captains on those latter fleets to F/O and probably all of the F/Os back to S/O? Who does that help? The company? The pilots? None of the above?

We should be pushing harder to have everyone stood up.

On what grounds? The international borders are closed. There is no useful work for at least half of the A330 and 787 fleets and none at all for the A380. There will be a time when we will be able to push harder and it will be appropriate to do so. Unfortunately that time is still months away.

[Keg]

How many of the A380 pilots will be approaching 65 within the next 12-24 months?

0. Though there are some LH pilots on other fleets approaching (and a couple beyond) 65.

What happens then? Forced retirement?

If there is no SH vacancy to bid for, yes. (Under current rules).

Where do they stand then for bidding to the SH? (Pending any vacancies of course)

If there is a vacancy they can bid for it. Whether a vacancy has to be created for them I thought was ruled on a bunch of years ago with the result being the company does not have to create a slot for them. Happy to be corrected on that point.


Ie: can you bid while “stood down”

Most definitely. You’re stood down in category. It doesn’t stop you bidding. A better question would be can you bid whilst on LWOP. I’m not sure that latter question has been tested.

Of the <65 group, are there any positions for them to bid to?

Not currently. There may be toward the end of this year depending on a few different things.

If you are late in your ‘50’s and a F/O, is there enough time for you to find a left seat before you retire?

This would depend on seniority. There are a lot of ‘ifs’ to do with future promotion including how many A380s come back and what QF chooses to do with A380 crew in the interim. Most of the F/Os you mention are now a couple of hundred numbers more senior to what they were 12 months ago and some of them are likely to now have their commands a couple of years before they would have otherwise expected. In the past I would have listed out the exact fleet numbers to provide more context but can’t do that anymore. ‘Confidential company information’.

What of the S/O’s? They must be looking at a long stay on the sidelines?

Again, this will depend on seniority and some of the aforementioned ‘ifs’. IF 12 A380s come back and IF we are looking at half a dozen (or more) A350s arriving in late 2023 then it’s likely that 2022-2023 will see the biggest training program every run by Qantas. Even if only 6 A380s come back, with the A350 coming down range we are still looking at a pretty significant training load.

How long can they be on LWOP for before?

As long as they like.

What happens at the end of the LWOP?

They come back to their previous category and are either stood up (if there is work) or remain stood down. They start to accrue years of service, AL, LSL again, etc.


Now, if they retire the aircraft, then all these problems become the company’s problem through the RIN process, so it would appear that will be an option QF won’t want to take.

If they retire the A380s it’ll likely be because they’ve chosen to replace the capacity with A350s. There will be airframes for the remaining A380 crew to RIN to.


All the best to everyone in this predicament, a terrible situation. Take care of yourselves and your families, and we are all hoping for smooth skies in the not to distant future.

Yes. A terrible predicament that is impacting crew in very different ways depending on the seat you happened to be in when the music stopped. Hopefully with vaccinations ramping up in the lead up to Christmas, once the election is done and dusted we will see international borders re-opening.

[halfmoon]

Seniority rules.....wait...not at Qantas.

[Wingspar]

On what grounds? The international borders are closed. There is no useful work for at least half of the A330 and 787 fleets and none at all for the A380. There will be a time when we will be able to push harder and it will be appropriate to do so. Unfortunately that time is still months away.[/QUOTE]

That’s the unfortunate reality at the moment like it or not.

It’s interesting reading this,

”Mr Joyce said that capability included keeping on enough A380 pilots to operate at least six A380s at relatively short notice.”

I don’t think that is the intent of the stand down clause?

[cloudsurfng]

Seniority rules.....wait...not at Qantas.

can you give an example? Not happy with sharing standup? Not happy with rostering? Not happy you’re senior to someone on another fleet but not flying? Some context please....as far as I’ve seen, seniority is ruling,

[Keg]

The policy of forced stand downs is a genie you won’t get back in the bottle. It’ll prob be used for the next crisis and the one after that.

Yes, I wonder the same thing. One wonders how a QF32 type event and subsequent fleet grounding may be treated in the future compared to how it was in the past.

[dr dre]

Seniority rules.....wait...not at Qantas.

Was it ever an absolute?

If strict seniority was to be have been applied at the start of COVID then immediately the top roughly 500 pilots would’ve been retrained as mostly 737 pilots with a few 330 and 787 drivers as well, and the rest made redundant. That would’ve satisfied crewing numbers for the whole of last year, and then as more crew start to to be needed this year they are re-employed from #500 onwards.

If no seniority at all was applied then all 380 and 747 pilots from every rank would’ve been made redundant a few months into Covid. Maybe apply for their jobs back in 3 years time but no earlier.

The application of seniority to whatever degree is going to make some happy and some unhappy.

[Tucknroll]

Was it ever an absolute?

If strict seniority was to be have been applied at the start of COVID then immediately the top roughly 500 pilots would’ve been retrained as mostly 737 pilots with a few 330 and 787 drivers as well, and the rest made redundant. That would’ve satisfied crewing numbers for the whole of last year, and then as more crew start to to be needed this year they are re-employed from #500 onwards.

If no seniority at all was applied then all 380 and 747 pilots from every rank would’ve been made redundant a few months into Covid. Maybe apply for their jobs back in 3 years time but no earlier.

The application of seniority to whatever degree is going to make some happy and some unhappy.

and everyone who is currently stood down would have a couple hundred grand redundancy payout in their pocket while they wait to be rehired.

[dr dre]

and everyone who is currently stood down would have a couple hundred grand redundancy payout in their pocket while they wait to be rehired.

Not necessarily.

If Strict Seniority CR was applied then everyone who started in the last few years would have no more than a few weeks pay. So for a lot it would be better to collect AL on stand down.

If you are redundant then you are outside of the system and any possible chances that come up in that time. Yes, you’ll be rehired but only when overall it’s deemed necessary and miss out on any opportunities until then. For example there was no recruitment between 2009-16 but plenty of promotions and transfers that occurred within the pilots who were employed. They managed those slots with the numbers they had at the time.

And it sounds great if redundancies were paid out to all crew but it would risk the overall financial position of the company and put a lot of other workers at risk. Income is still tight out there although there is hope on the horizon.

Yeah it sucks but there really isn’t a option which is going to satisfy everyone.

[AerialPerspective]

I apologise if I am wrong but I always thought Qantas was an airline and their primary purpose was to provide an "airline service". Since when were they some type of investment company with return on capital to shareholders being their primary goal? :confused:

They are a publicly traded company - they may be an 'icon' in many people's minds but they are, legally and in fact, a publicly traded company with shareholders who consider their funds they've invested in shares not as a 'gift' or 'donation' but as an investment with the expectation of a return.

Qantas' activities happen to be providing air transportation to people and goods but it is ALL for the purpose of providing a return on capital invested. It's as simple as that. Effective 31st July, 1995.

[Keg]

and everyone who is currently stood down would have a couple hundred grand redundancy payout in their pocket while they wait to be rehired.

Nope. They’d still be stood down, and the company would be broke from multiple training courses both ways. We would have killed the goose that lays the golden egg each fortnight.

I’ve said a number of times that surviving Covid was about trying to find the ‘least crap’ outcome for the most number of people. So far I reckon we’ve gone pretty well to achieve that. I acknowledge that the ‘least crap’ outcome varies significantly between different segments of the mainline pilot group.


EBA variation discussions ceased when Qantas realised the greatest benefit came from its unchallenged position on Stand Down.

Not even close to reality.

[SandyPalms]

Where’s the proposed variation Keg?

There’s been plenty of time. If work has been done on an acceptable solution, what’s the solution and what work has been done. Enlighten me?.

As I hear it went nowhere because QF kept asking for things that wouldn’t get more people back to work sooner, like removing MDC from certain duties to go along with the reduction in MGH that they wouldn’t committ to undoing when the world got back to normal. Seems like it was a conditions grab, designed to look like they cared.

[Keg]

As I hear it went nowhere because QF kept asking for things that wouldn’t get more people back to work sooner, like removing MDC from certain duties to go along with the reduction in MGH that they wouldn’t committ to undoing when the world got back to normal. Seems like it was a conditions grab, designed to look like they cared.

That’s a long way from the version I’ve heard. It’s true that QF suggested some things that made their life easier during Covid such as reduced bidding timelines and other things like that. The things I heard discussed all had an end date though so it wasn’t a ‘conditions grab’ in the traditional sense that a line pilot might see it. I hadn’t heard about the ‘wouldn’t commit to undoing’ regarding reduced MDC but I’ll do some digging. Keep in mind that any variation still needed to be voted up so any ‘grab’ that jeopardised a ‘yes’ vote was short sighted in the extreme.

There are a few different reasons why EA variations are not being discussed in any depth any more. I’m happy to talk through them over the phone if people want to give me a call.

[Tucknroll]

Not necessarily.

If Strict Seniority CR was applied then everyone who started in the last few years would have no more than a few weeks pay. So for a lot it would be better to collect AL on stand down.

If you are redundant then you are outside of the system and any possible chances that come up in that time. Yes, you’ll be rehired but only when overall it’s deemed necessary and miss out on any opportunities until then. For example there was no recruitment between 2009-16 but plenty of promotions and transfers that occurred within the pilots who were employed. They managed those slots with the numbers they had at the time.

And it sounds great if redundancies were paid out to all crew but it would risk the overall financial position of the company and put a lot of other workers at risk. Income is still tight out there although there is hope on the horizon.

Yeah it sucks but there really isn’t a option which is going to satisfy everyone.

I get what you’re saying but you are forgetting that LWOP was taken up by the junior pilots who were told they would most likely be bypassed for CR if they did so.

So most of the people who would actually be CRed would be more senior and probably get a couple of hundred grand at least.

[Tucknroll]

Nope. They’d still be stood down, and the company would be broke from multiple training courses both ways. We would have killed the goose that lays the golden egg each fortnight.

Like the ensuing bankruptcy from the 747 RIN training courses?

the CRed pilots would probably be SO’s. The most likely short term outcome from a mass CR would be a bit of heavy crewing, not bankruptcy from training courses. You know that, so does Qantas. Keeping us all stood down is really really cheap. That’s why they’re doing it.

[theheadmaster]

Can the company make someone compulsory redundant if there is a legal stand down trigger?

[Keg]

Like the ensuing bankruptcy from the 747 RIN training courses?

That’s 60 odd Captain/ F/O courses onto fleets that are likely to need those crew in the next six months (post VR/ER, it would have been a heap more prior to that process). It’s a very different set of circumstances to the RIN example Dre was talking about of doing a mass RIN at the beginning of Covid of everyone on the A380 (110 courses post VR), then everyone on the 747 (60 courses), then dealing with the surplus on the 787, then dealing with the resulting surplus on the A330. Conservatively I reckon we’re up to 400 training courses.

Oh, and now we’d be training in the reverse order again to re-promote people for the increased flying having probably not even got everyone into the correct seats to start off with.

[Australopithecus]

In a fair world perhaps some kind of “no worse off” could have applied. Given the 330 and 787 crews probably only had two or three months in the last 14 why not just pay the 747 and 380 guys the same. That way everyone would be in the same boat, and no training required.

[Transition Layer]

Will those training onto the 330/787 at present simply check to line and then get stood down?

Seems like QF might be jumping the gun a bit, but hopefully I’m wrong!

[Roj approved]

Thank you for your answers Keg👍

[turbantime]

It appears that international travel will take some time to recover:
A report this week by Barclays, “Travel, Interrupted”, is tipping a permanent reduction in global mobility arising from COVID-19. “We think it is very likely that mobility restrictions will remain even after the developed economies have achieved herd immunity. In other words, the risk of a ‘persistent pandemic’ is real.”

Even when borders open, travel is expected to remain a greater a hassle than before, requiring more paperwork and vaccinations against new strains of the virus. The result? Permanent scarring of the work prospects of employees in travel, hospitality and tourism and a widening gap in fortunes between the developed and developing world, the latter relying more on inbound tourism.
https://www.smh.com.au/business/the-economy/the-hidden-and-mounting-costs-of-life-in-our-hermit-kingdom-20210526-p57vdq.html

[FightDeck]

Qantas can run a RIN, and move crew to where there is work without displacing anyone in a subsequent RIN.
The Bump that Keg assumes only happens after crew move and IF Qantas choose to then run a subsequent RIN.Nothing to stop QF carrying a surplus and avoiding the bump.TRE’s saying training is at max in SH and on some LH fleets from prior vacancies so cost of training can’t be an argument.
with the dismal failure of a government plan on vaccines Qantas may be in this position for many years to come.
A330s are flying domestically and to Asia(Freight).The 787s are flying a lot of repat flights and now domestic/freight.Most of which are paid by the government.
There is not a total “stoppage of work” so the “borders closed” argument is not stopping work entirely. LH crew have useful work and are flying now it is just limited.The argument many have is false as it assumes border closes=no useful work for anyone
Stand down will have a limited timeframe and Qantas shareholder responsibility doesn’t over ride law.

[theheadmaster]

Unfortunately, the Long Haul EA does not specify that a pilot can be only be stood down for a 'total' "stoppage of work". The words in clause 15.6 refer to a 'strike, stoppage or other limitation of work for which the company cannot be held responsible'. A 'limitation' does not require all work to cease. Moreover, the stand down can apply to individual pilots, it does not have to apply to all pilots, or an entire category of pilots; note the use of the words 'an Australian based pilot' and 'the pilot'. So a limitation that only affects the work for a handful of employees can result in partial stand downs of a group of pilots.

Regarding running a RIN and then Qantas carrying the surplus, this is an important point. While the RIN process is specified in the Agreement, it does not state that he Company has to conduct a RIN. The 'right thing' to do for pilots might be to RIN A380 pilots to other long haul types that are flying. However, if there is cost involved, there may be pressure from within the business to carry the surplus on the A380 and not RIN anyone. If you were a cynic, you might conclude that Qantas may be motivated to talk about A380s coming back into service as it affects the ability to stand down pilots on that type.

[Keg]

Qantas can run a RIN, and move crew to where there is work without displacing anyone in a subsequent RIN.
The Bump that Keg assumes only happens after crew move and IF Qantas choose to then run a subsequent RIN.Nothing to stop QF carrying a surplus and avoiding the bump.

Qantas runs a RIN because a category is in surplus. With only 40 A380 Captains and plans for at least 6 A380s to return (and Joyce keeps talking about all 12) one needs to ask whether the A380 categories fit the definition of being in surplus. That’s an argument that can go either way depending on a bunch of legal definitions. That is a discussion that is well above my pay grade. I have an opinion on the matter but am often reminded that it’s just my opinion.

However let’s consider your justification for a RIN. You’re suggesting we do a RIN of the A380 category (presumably because you feel them in surplus), have them displace to the A330 and 787 (where there is only currently enough flying for about 50% of the crew) but then NOT do a subsequent RIN on the A330 and 787? It seems a little odd to push a barrow to RIN one fleet due not enough flying for those pilots but then not follow that principle through to it’s logical conclusion on other LH fleets?

Interestingly, toward the end of last year it seemed there were quite advanced discussions and some plans to move crew from the non flying fleets onto the 330 and 787. Those discussions seem not to have progressed this year. Perhaps the real question A380 pilots should be asking is what happened to those ideas that were being discussed in the back half of last year.

Stand down will have a limited timeframe…..

This I agree with though I suspect we disagree on when that time frame comes around.

[Kaboobla]

Keg

You are meant to be one of the union reps these days and all I hear you do is defend the company. Maybe they need defending, I dont know. I do think that probably it would be better if you represented the interests of pilots stood down for over 18 months now.

The A380 pilots dont have to ask any questions - your on the AIPA COM. You have been elected to ask those questions on their behalf.

The 'redundancies will send the company broke' trope needs to end - seriously.

All of QF HR stood up the whole time since COVID kicked off - many of them on over 100K per year.

Network fully stood up. EFA full stood up without a day off. JQ now fully stood up including their 787 pilots.

Dont worry, QF is making plenty of money and its certain exec bonuses will be paid FY 22 / 23.... seriously come on.

[knobbycobby]

Your all off the mark.Qantas are going to have issues with extended stand down.

[FightDeck]

Qantas are running around 150 training courses from old vacancies.They should of cancelled the courses if they were in difficulty.
Why are they going ahead and training 150 pilots if they can’t afford it? You can’t have it both ways.
The argument doesn’t pass the pub test.

[geeup]

Not sure that’s correct.
Did they not have a 2/2 arrangement?


Network fully stood up.
.

[Sparrows.]

JQ now fully stood up including their 787 pilots.


The 787 SO’s would tend to disagree with you...

[Keg]

…all I hear you do is defend the company.

I’m not defending the company. I’m trying to take the principle that Flightdeck is espousing through to it’s natural conclusion and pointing out the issues that arise.

I do think that probably it would be better if you represented the interests of pilots stood down

When someone puts forward a pipe dream outcome that hasn’t a hope in Hades of getting up and I question the logic or principle under pinning the pipe dream that is actually representing the interests of all the pilots- including those pilots who are standing up on a rotational basis.

A RIN may not be the best outcome and could create more problems than it solves. There are other solutions possible. Some of these solutions were being discussed late last year. They no longer are.

The A380 pilots dont have to ask any questions - your on the AIPA COM. You have been elected to ask those questions on their behalf.

I’ve asked the questions. The answers tend not to be reported in insights. I’m not going to blaze away on here when it’s not my place. People can call me if they like- I’ve had a bunch already.


The 'redundancies will send the company broke' trope needs to end - seriously.

Not a line I’ve put forward. However I still maintain that a RIN may not be in the interest of the majority of pilots and that there are other potential solutions that could be considered.

Qantas are running around 150 training courses from old vacancies.They should of cancelled the courses if they were in difficulty.

This number is incorrect. It’s about 25% less than that. Included in those training courses are a fair number of A380 and 747 pilots who will now have some window seat flying. Fantastic outcome for them. They are going to fleets who are currently not in surplus*. A RIN of the A380 adds a further 200+ pilots. The remaining 747 RIN slots (most of whom start courses on the A330 or 787 within the next month or two) is another 65ish. 11 are waiting for the A380.

* Technically the LH fleets are for the current flying but not for the ‘normal’ establishment.

[Keg]

PS: the only A380 category that go even close to being considered ‘in surplus’ would be the S/Os. And perhaps only 20-30 of them. If they keep talking about all 12 jets coming back that number gets smaller.

[Troo believer]

April fools day has been and gone. 6 at best and that will be a year away or more. A350 sunrise brown eye in 2024. Will they need the 380 at all?

[slice]

They could paint the 380s silver and orange, refit with 880 Y seats and fly them to Bali and Phuket🍻🍺🍻🍺🍻

[C441]

Will they need the 380 at all?
It's not so much will they need them but whether they can operate them for a dollar greater benefit than another fleet on any particular route. Given that they are now significantly written down in value, the cost of operating them may well see them used as demand grows.

[SHVC]

AJ is keen as mustard to get the party started. offering free flights for a year for 10 families of 4. Lets see JH come to the party or Mr turner throw a carrot. This is not going to happen unless we all get the jab. May NSW should of held off with those vouchers, imagine the uptake of the vaccine if they were the carrot.

[Paragraph377]

AJ is keen as mustard to get the party started. offering free flights for a year for 10 families of 4. Lets see JH come to the party or Mr turner throw a carrot. This is not going to happen unless we all get the jab. May NSW should of held off with those vouchers, imagine the uptake of the vaccine if they were the carrot.
How about the Federal and State Governments be made to financially compensate every Australian? It is they who are responsible for closing borders which in turn is resulting in many many people losing their jobs, their businesses, their houses and their financial nest eggs, and in many cases their financial futures. The Guvmint has no issue spending hundreds of billions of dollars on armoury and they have no issue with ‘printing more paper money’ so why shouldn’t we be compensated financially.

These arseholes are making it up as they go. We need to learn to live with it, to manage the virus. I had truly hoped that with a fourth lockdown the entire state of Victoria would have protested en masse and taken to the streets, in fact taken back the streets. The politicians remain financially cocooned from the financial mess that has been inflicted on the rest of the population. Enough is enough.

[SHVC]

How about the Federal and State Governments be made to financially compensate every Australian? It is they who are responsible for closing borders which in turn is resulting in many many people losing their jobs, their businesses, their houses and their financial nest eggs, and in many cases their financial futures. The Guvmint has no issue spending hundreds of billions of dollars on armoury and they have no issue with ‘printing more paper money’ so why shouldn’t we be compensated financially.



These arseholes are making it up as they go. We need to learn to live with it, to manage the virus. I had truly hoped that with a fourth lockdown the entire state of Victoria would have protested en masse and taken to the streets, in fact taken back the streets. The politicians remain financially cocooned from the financial mess that has been inflicted on the rest of the population. Enough is enough.

They sure are making it up, if you have the play book on how to handle a pandemic please send it ASAP to the gov sounds like the book you have they could benefit from.

[blow.n.gasket]

Simple solution available SHVC , keep the diagnostic PCR cycle (Ct) thresholds to less than 28 cycles as stated by the inventor of the system , rather than the 40-50 cycles presently being implemented and 95% of your (false) positive diagnoses disappear , the Covid hysteria ends , the forced experimental mRNA gene therapy vaccines no longer required and we can all begin to get back to normal !

[das Uber Soldat]

Simple solution available SHVC , keep the diagnostic PCR cycle (Ct) thresholds to less than 28 cycles as stated by the inventor of the system , rather than the 40-50 cycles presently being implemented and 95% of your (false) positive diagnoses disappear , the Covid hysteria ends , the forced experimental mRNA gene therapy vaccines no longer required and we can all begin to get back to normal !
No community quite like pilots when it comes to willingness to push utter tripe and deny it's ignorance.

Mullins died before COVID even existed. There is bupkis evidence that he stated a cycle limit of 28 for the Ct thresholds in the context of COVID. Ct values up to 45 are frequently used as a threshold or detection of HIV. I assume you're aware that your precious Mullis denied that Aids was caused by HIV whilst we're on the subject?

https://www.publichealthontario.ca/en/about/blog/2021/explained-covid19-pcr-testing-and-cycle-thresholds

Independent statistical analysis of confirmed hospital cases demonstrate Ct's well into the 30's.

https://www.dovepress.com/cycle-threshold-values-in-the-context-of-multiple-rt-pcr-testing-for-s-peer-reviewed-fulltext-article-RMHP

As for 'covid hysteria' and 'no vaccines required', feel free to move to India and let me know how that works out for you. I'm sure its all in their imaginations.

This is conspiracy theory nonsense propagated by an accomplished idiot and should be deleted post haste out of this forum. Now, off with you, no doubt you've got 5g towers to sabotage in the defense against the Lizard people.

[knobbycobby]

Alliance are training and expanding. Qantas have also chosen not to cancel over 100 training vacancies from 2019 and instead defer and train. The majority of these have not gone to 380 pilots. Qantas are not in a position to say they can't afford training.
Keg's position is clear that he believes senior pilots should remain stood down and no RIN or movement should occur. It clearly supports his individual position which is fine, but pretending he has the interests of those most affected at heart is disingenuous.

[Wingspar]

"With early retirement and people taking leave without pay, we actually have scale to crew six of the aircraft," Joyce told Executive Travellerearlier this month.

"If they do come back in when we expect them, at the end of 2023, we'll activate the first six aircraft very rapidly because we’ll have the pilots to do it."


If AJ wants to keep the A380 pilots on standby he’ll have to pay them. Once any A330/B787 training vacancies are advertised he can’t stop them bidding for that useful work. I suggest at that time he’ll have to pay for them to stay where they are.

[Keg]

Keg's position is clear that he believes senior pilots should remain stood down and no RIN or movement should occur.

No. Quite the contrary.

Do you recall who it was that was advocating a lower MGH if it meant we could move crew across from the A380 to the A330 and carry them as a surplus? There weren’t many others advocating for that outcome. There were some caveats to that plan to make it palatable for the A330 pilots (who were going to be the ones needing to vote the variation up and were going to be the ones taking a hit beyond what they may have otherwise). Where is that discussion at these days? Why hasn’t that been progressed?

There are also a couple of other ideas being looked at that I’m aware ofl- that I’m supportive of as well- but your characterisation of my position that ‘senior pilots should remain stood down and no RIN or movement should occur’ is so false as to be laughable.

If AJ wants to keep the A380 pilots on standby he’ll have to pay them. Once any A330/B787 training vacancies are advertised he can’t stop them bidding for that useful work. I suggest at that time he’ll have to pay for them to stay where they are.

Very close to the mark as to just one of the options.

[FightDeck]

So why did Qantas defer over 100 training positions from as far back as 2019 when they knew they would have many 747 and 380 pilots on long term stand down? Would have avoided 90% of a RIN even being needed or contemplated.
Qantas are not going to be able to keep pilots stood down till it's the optimum commercial timepoint for Qantas.

[Tucknroll]

Qantas are not going to be able to keep pilots stood down till it's the optimum commercial timepoint for Qantas.

Of course they are, who’s going to stop them?

[Keg]

So why did Qantas defer over 100 training positions from as far back as 2019 when they knew they would have many 747 and 380 pilots on long term stand down?

The courses were all paused or not started as of about 30 March 2020 when the stand down started. More than 3/4 of courses from the 19/20 training year had commenced as at that date.

More than 1/3 of those deferred courses were listed as going to A380 or 747 crew who had bid for them in that training year.

You feel the other 60ish slots should have been cancelled? Or cancel them all? Of course if you cancel them all the 737 F/O going to the A330 doesn’t go which means the A380 S/O taking the 737 F/O course is no longer needed. I think we’d end up in the same practical outcome perhaps? Qantas just waits a bit longer to fill the A330 F/O vacancy.

Of course they are, who’s going to stop them?

Well when borders are open again it looks more like a commercial decision to keep crew stood down. There’s two issues that arise from that.
1. All crew should be pressuring their local members about a timeline for this. Vaccine roll out and unrestricted borders* is the major factor in getting people back flying more quickly.
2. Lack of travel restrictions changes the legal dynamics behind the stand down.

Other ideas will get a few people back in seats doing some flying in the interim (or perhaps no flying but some income) but it’s tinkering around the edges compared to freeing up travel again.

(*substantially unrestricted. Obviously we may fly some places earlier than others).

[ruprecht]

Other ideas will get a few people back in seats doing some flying in the interim (or perhaps no flying but some income) but it’s tinkering around the edges compared to freeing up travel again.

It isn’t either/or. It may be tinkering, but it may stop some from losing their house.

[Keg]

Of course. However moving pilots onto a fleet with some flying and then diluting that by another 1/3 comes a long second to getting borders open more quickly and having a significantly larger amount of flying to share around.

[SHVC]

Would it be safe to say QF international is dead for the foreseeable future? I mean, think about it Feds have no intention on opening our international border for many many yrs if they’re willing to contribute 200 million into Victoria’s quarantine facility, QLD have just had their 300 million faculty rejected due to changes the feds want. I’m sure it will get approved at some point tho.

Im thinking 2022 is a pipe dream and untill world elimination of Covid we will be seeing borders closed and state wide lockdowns over 1 case.

[maggot]

No i don't think its 'safe to say' that.

[SHVC]

Why spend half a billion dollars plus ongoing cost on facilities then?

[goodonyamate]

Why spend half a billion dollars plus ongoing cost on facilities then?


maybe that’s where we are going to lock all the anti vaxxers.

[whatever6719]

maybe that’s where we are going to lock all the anti vaxxers.


F&%k that made me laugh!! Thanks.. I needed it ;))

[maggot]

maybe that’s where we are going to lock all the anti vaxxers.
jokes aside it may be used from time to time for unvaccinated travellers

[ScepticalOptomist]

Would it be safe to say QF international is dead for the foreseeable future? I mean, think about it Feds have no intention on opening our international border for many many yrs if they’re willing to contribute 200 million into Victoria’s quarantine facility, QLD have just had their 300 million faculty rejected due to changes the feds want. I’m sure it will get approved at some point tho.

Im thinking 2022 is a pipe dream and untill world elimination of Covid we will be seeing borders closed and state wide lockdowns over 1 case.

Disagree. Rhetoric is changing - a push for vaccinating and opening up is becoming part of the conversation.

Experiencing first hand the rapid changes in the US and UK. The media / sentiment in both places is positive and getting closer to opening up to travel in a safe and structured way. Once we in Oz see what’s happening and see how safe and easy it can be, even the local “but they’ve kept us safe” evangelist will be chomping at the bit..

[ScepticalOptomist]

jokes aside it may be used from time to time for unvaccinated travellers

Dont know if there would be any such thing - I’d say most of the world, including Oz will require a vaccination to enter the country.

[Blueskymine]

It’ll become the next immigration detention centre post covid.

There’s a few years worth of asylum seekers to catch up on now, and there will be a flood of them when the world starts to open up again. Australia has done relatively well through this crisis and there will be many ready to try their fortunes when the time comes.

I hope I’m wrong. However I doubt it.

[SHVC]

I think the zero tolerance is embedded in the public’s brain now, international travelers will not be welcomed by the average John and Jane. We will watch rest of the world move on and we will be still squabbling over 1 or 2 cases here and there watching the Victoria circus whilst still casting opinions on Lord Farquaad over in the west.
What we have now is what we will have in 2023, not that I want it I’m keen to open up and travel but one has to be realistic no one is going to put their name to open the international border then have the next covid death even if it’s not related to an international traveler on their watch.

[thec172man]

Why spend half a billion dollars plus ongoing cost on facilities then?
To be seen as doing something while in reality achieving nothing to appeal to the masses, this applies to both the State and Federal governments.

[thec172man]

No democratic government with an upcoming election is going to announce that borders will remain closed during the election year.

The date will continue to be moved.

Vaccine efficacy against the existing mutation strains is not high enough to achieve heard immunity within this round of vaccinations. Boosters will be required prior to open borders.

The PM is spinning the line ‘these facilities being proposed by Vic will supplement hotel quarantine’. BULLDUST. It MAY end up being essential if the mutations develop vaccine escape qualities and with the number of infections occurring in humans (and possibly, eventually in another species) that is probable.

Qantas will still have useful repatriation work and possible bubbles (albeit minimal).

I honestly think people are confused about the role of vaccines. The main job of a vaccine is to prevent serious illness requiring hospitalisation and death, not to stop you from getting infected all all. If that is the case, we'd shut down 12 months a year cause the flu season is opposite to each other in the Northern and Southern hemisphere ...

[ScepticalOptomist]

I honestly think people are confused about the role of vaccines. The main job of a vaccine is to prevent serious illness requiring hospitalisation and death, not to stop you from getting infected all all. If that is the case, we'd shut down 12 months a year cause the flu season is opposite to each other in the Northern and Southern hemisphere ...

This and many more FACTS about vaccination could easily be propagated by some decent advertising by the government.

By contrast, every TV / Radio ad in the UK and the US is pro vaccination and urging people to get the jab..

[SHVC]

Meanwhile in Melbourne more anti vaxers wee arrested today, in a place where you think they would want it so they could protest legally. Australia!..... can’t make this sh!t up haha

[Derfred]

I honestly think people are confused about the role of vaccines. The main job of a vaccine is to prevent serious illness requiring hospitalisation and death, not to stop you from getting infected all all. If that is the case, we'd shut down 12 months a year cause the flu season is opposite to each other in the Northern and Southern hemisphere ...

The transmissibility of the virus from vaccinated people is difficult to get data on in the early stages. But more and more data is coming in, and it’s looking good.

Evidence is increasing that, not only do COVID-19 vaccines either stop you getting sick or substantially reduce the severity of your symptoms, they are also likely to substantially reduce the chance of transmitting the virus to others.

https://www1.racgp.org.au/newsgp/clinical/mounting-evidence-suggests-covid-vaccines-do-reduc

[blubak]

Meanwhile in Melbourne more anti vaxers wee arrested today, in a place where you think they would want it so they could protest legally. Australia!..... can’t make this sh!t up haha
Arent these anti vaxxers actually anti everything!
They pop up as human rights fighters,as BLM promoters & whatever other agenda suits them at the time.
They should go to china or nth korea & see how that plays out.

[blubak]

I honestly think people are confused about the role of vaccines. The main job of a vaccine is to prevent serious illness requiring hospitalisation and death, not to stop you from getting infected all all. If that is the case, we'd shut down 12 months a year cause the flu season is opposite to each other in the Northern and Southern hemisphere ...
Confused by radio talkback hosts who question every medical fact produced even though they have no medical qualifications themselves & let down by a government too interested in promoting irrelevant facts about the vaccination program rather than as you say tellling people how it works & what protection it gives.

[TimmyTee]

The fact is the government is not going to allow “normal” outbound international travel until all Australians “stuck” overseas eventually get home.
Right now that’s a relative trickle, and without a change in policy, this will continue on at roughly the current rates.
Hopefully with inter-Europe and Europe-USA travel picking up, more and more aussies become jealous/envious and change their tune on the old “I’m good with keeping the borders closed”.
Ideally at some point freedom to travel in and out will be allowed, meaning anyone who wants to come home can - but as long as there is supervised quarantine required, this is a pipe dream in Australia

[SHVC]

Australia will be a lonely country in a big world soon. Life will go on and w will be still fussing over a cough we heard in the supermarket. That is the reality ppl.

[Transition Layer]

Australia will be a lonely country in a big world soon. Life will go on and w will be still fussing over a cough we heard in the supermarket. That is the reality ppl.
100% spot on.
And the economic fallout will be massive in the long term. Sure we are sailing right now but it’s all short lived. The rest of the world will move on without us sadly.

[halfmoon]

Seriously though, does anyone actually really believe the borders will open again?

not going to happen open! Sorry!

There's way too much fear and paranoia

[dr dre]

Hopefully with inter-Europe and Europe-USA travel picking up, more and more aussies become jealous/envious and change their tune on the old “I’m good with keeping the borders closed”.


You would think so. But Australian media isn’t interested in showing footage of vaccinated holidaymakers suntanning on the beaches of Spain or Greece. Instead we’ll get footage of bodies or filthy hospitals in India or Africa or other third world countries as a reason why, even with vaccination, we need the borders closed to be kept safe and to be reminded that “Australia is the envy of the world”.....

[Fonz121]

The mass exodus has begun. 65,000 departures in April alone is pretty huge compared to the inbound numbers. We'll lose 5% of our population before the year is out. That's a lot of tax revenue walking out the door. Graph below is residents returning x1000.

**EDIT** The inbound numbers for April were a lot higher as well at 55'000ish**Departures increasingSince March last year, 156,507 Australian citizens and permanent residents were given exemptions to leave Australia out of 329,180 who made requests, according to the Australian Border Force.

A total of 84,031 requests from Australian citizens and permanent residents to leave Australia were denied.

In April, there were 65,100 departures from Australia, the highest monthly figure since the pandemic began, according to the Australian Bureau of Statistics.

Among those leaving are long-term skilled migrants, which economic policy program director at the Grattan Institute Brendan Coates says Australia can't afford to lose.


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1071x583/arrivals_2087b2cdbbd9ba3d822954202ff4c9e17fec70e8.png


https://www.sbs.com.au/news/bye-bye-australia-the-migrants-leaving-for-good-so-they-can-see-their-families#:~:text=Coronavirus-,'Bye%2Dbye%2C%20Australia'%3A%20The%20migrants%20leaving%20 for,they%20can%20see%20their%20families&text=The%20federal%20government's%20plan%20to,see%20their%20 loved%20ones%20overseas.

[Keg]

Seriously though, does anyone actually really believe the borders will open again?

not going to happen open! Sorry!

There's way too much fear and paranoia

They’ll open. Just not by Christmas. More likely by about this time next year and in a staged way. Whether demand returns quickly is another thing entirely.

[Potsie Weber]

They’ll open. Just not by Christmas. More likely by about this time next year and in a staged way. Whether demand returns quickly is another thing entirely.

I expect by this time next year, Victoria will be in its 10th lockdown, the feds will still be negotiating with the states over dedicated quarantine facilities, the premiers will continue keeping the population in fear and under emergency powers, vaccinations will have stubbornly stalled at around 60%, not enough to reach herd immunity and far too risky to open the borders.

[Keg]

I hope we end up closer to my prediction than yours Potsie but I certainly see your version of events of being the other side of the same coin!

If there is one thing the last 15 months have taught us is that it doesn’t matter how stupid we think the decisions being made are, they always find a deeper degree of ‘stupid’ to go to.

[MelbourneFlyer]

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news/qantas-project-sunrise-sydney-flights

While Qantas' Project Sunrise is intended to connect Australia's east coast capitals to London, New York and Paris with non-stop flights, the NSW Government has requested the 18-20 hour treks run exclusively from Sydney for the first five years as part of a secret $50 million bid to keep the airline based in Sydney.
This was among seven conditions attached to the offer made by in an attempt to win a bidding war between New South Wales, Victoria and Queensland for the location of Qantas' headquarters.

[neville_nobody]

I hope we end up closer to my prediction than yours Potsie but I certainly see your version of events of being the other side of the same coin!

If there is one thing the last 15 months have taught us is that it doesn’t matter how stupid we think the decisions being made are, they always find a deeper degree of ‘stupid’ to go to.

That's because many of the State Governments decisions are driven by ideological thinking rather than the best decision. The question you have to ask is why are the States going to change their policies?

The mass exodus has begun. 65,000 departures in April alone is pretty huge compared to the inbound numbers. We'll lose 5% of our population before the year is out. That's a lot of tax revenue walking out the door. Graph below is residents returning x1000.

Not to mention that it is also inflationary, drives a labour crisis and it isn't really a State problem but a Federal one because the State Governments don't collect income tax.

[jrfsp]

That's because many of the State Governments decisions are driven by ideological thinking rather than the best decision. The question you have to ask is why are the States going to change their policies?



Not to mention that it is also inflationary, drives a labour crisis and it isn't really a State problem but a Federal one because the State Governments don't collect income tax.

Considering private sector wage growth had been at an all time low, a labour shortage might be viewed as a good thing by a significant portion of the general public.

[Wingspar]

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news/qantas-project-sunrise-sydney-flights

“…the NSW Government has requested the 18-20 hour treks run exclusively from Sydney for the first five years…”

Interesting in that the business case has them operating out of Melbourne and Brisbane too!

[neville_nobody]

Considering private sector wage growth had been at an all time low, a labour shortage might be viewed as a good thing by a significant portion of the general public.

It doesn't work as that pay rise is eaten by higher prices. You also run into a supply shortage of goods etc. Especially for those on the lower end of the wage spectrum the pay rise won't cover the increase in the cost of living.

[jrfsp]

It doesn't work as that pay rise is eaten by higher prices. You also run into a supply shortage of goods etc. Especially for those on the lower end of the wage spectrum the pay rise won't cover the increase in the cost of living.

The cost of living growth has been outstripping wage growth for years, for once companies might actually have to offer pay increase instead of importing cheaper labour.

[geeup]

There will be no significant change til after the federal election.

Governments plan for COVID. Win another term and so it out from there….

[Thumb War]

There will be no significant change til after the federal election.

Governments plan for COVID. Win another term and so it out from there….

Sadly I think you are spot on. So the question now becomes - when will the election be held?

[SHVC]

When the Miss H saga is far enough in the back of the kind of Joe public.

[dr dre]

Sadly I think you are spot on. So the question now becomes - when will the election be held?

Constitutionally between August 2021 and May 2022.

It’s too close to call at the moment, so the government will probably want to stretch it out as along as possible to gain a bit more support and for voters to forget about the bungled vaccine rollout and other scandals.

It was strongly rumoured to be Oct/Nov this year but with the bungled rollout? Depends on how the next few months go. The government will still get a bit of a lift from Australians remembering how bad it was overseas last year and how we were relatively alright, but that still fade.

My thought is that they’ll keep the borders shut, deliver an election budget, tell Australians we’re the “envy of the world”, and the media assists with lots of pictures of unvaccinated third world countries and none of open vaccinated countries.

[Telfer86]

This isn't looking good
How many more billions will Mr Joyce demand from the Govt to keep afloat
He recently got $1.2 Billion didn't he ?

Difficult to see why the QF LH should be supported with tax-payer dollars

Remarkable how you can be extremely critical of other Australian airlines whilst demanding a billion plus in free cash

The Worlds greatest Airline CEO - QF have lost $1.8B since he has been there

The QF Hubris is all just a bit OTP , How about someone like the kind of guys AirNZ used to have (or still have as CEO)

A laid back local person , the shrieking buzzword dialogue can get a bit much

[Torukmacto]

Australians have spoken by refusing a vaccination they don’t need an overseas airline .

[SHVC]

Thats right. Why have an international airline when ppl don't want to travel., oh well what will AJ do now?

[galdian]

Thats right. Why have an international airline when ppl don't want to travel., oh well what will AJ do now?

Early retirement to spend more time with the family?? ;)

[Foxxster]

Thats right. Why have an international airline when ppl don't want to travel., oh well what will AJ do now?
I can’t imagine there is much incentive for him to stay. Those multi million dollar bonuses are dependent on metrics like share price which aren’t going to be able to be met for several years at least. Getting by on mere millions a year base pay versus 15 or 20 million a year with bonuses would wear pretty thin. We’ve all been there… lol.

[Street garbage]

So Short Haul facing the prospect of being stood down again, the same week it was "announced" in one of the Webinars the possibility ("SH will be considered") of outsourcing the 737 flying..and 4 A330's off to EFA...Mainline is screwed.

[dr dre]

So Short Haul facing the prospect of being stood down again,

Latest advice is that is NOT happening next month

[Keg]

So Short Haul facing the prospect of being stood down again, the same week it was "announced" in one of the Webinars the possibility ("SH will be considered") of outsourcing the 737 flying..and 4 A330's off to EFA...Mainline is screwed.

I missed the “announcement” of 4 A330s to EFA? Has that been announced? Or is it just a rumour?

Not sure how they’ll cover the post Covid network with four less airframes. Suspect that if they do decide to go down that road they’ll need load up on extra 787s to cover them.

[74world]

I missed the “announcement” of 4 A330s to EFA? Has that been announced? Or is it just a rumour?

Not sure how they’ll cover the post Covid network with four less airframes. Suspect that if they do decide to go down that road they’ll need load up on extra 787s to cover them.

Easy: expand NETWORK, COBHAM (717) and ALLIANCE ......that's how you reduce your cost.
Regarding Alliance 18 E190 are on their way.

[aussieflyboy]

Easy: expand NETWORK, COBHAM (717) and ALLIANCE ......that's how you reduce your cost.
Regarding Alliance 18 E190 are on their way.

Apparently QF Management are a little cranky with the Cobham pilots as their EA is much too expensive. Hence the massive base closures for them and constant battles with their allowances.

What we as pilots need to be doing is encouraging Network and Alliance pilots to negotiate hard and get their base salary up to a more respectable number. A320 pilots should not be less then Jetstar. F100 and E190 Pilots say 10% less then a 717 CAPT should be a target. By encouraging all companies to have a similar ‘per seat’ or per tonne cost as far as Pilot costs goes eliminates the ability for the company to have these mini battles amongst individual organisations.

[74world]

Apparently QF Management are a little cranky with the Cobham pilots as their EA is much too expensive. Hence the massive base closures for them and constant battles with their allowances.

What we as pilots need to be doing is encouraging Network and Alliance pilots to negotiate hard and get their base salary up to a more respectable number. A320 pilots should not be less then Jetstar. F100 and E190 Pilots say 10% less then a 717 CAPT should be a target. By encouraging all companies to have a similar ‘per seat’ or per tonne cost as far as Pilot costs goes eliminates the ability for the company to have these mini battles amongst individual organisations.

Not sure if QF management is cranky with Cobham....those guys are still costing a lot less than mainline.
A capt at Network earns 185K and Alliance 154K. hard to compete against that don't you agree?
A.JOYCE is only looking at cost structure, nothing else.
Customers? well they don't care, they just want to pay as little as possible for their airfares.

with the number of unemployed pilots willing to work for ANY KIND OF SALARIES and the "COVID excuse"......I don't see anyone or union in a position to negociate anything, but I could be wrong

[LostWanderer]

Not sure if QF management is cranky with Cobham....those guys are still costing a lot less than mainline.
A capt at Network earns 185K and Alliance 154K. hard to compete against that don't you agree?
A.JOYCE is only looking at cost structure, nothing else.
Customers? well they don't care, they just want to pay as little as possible for their airfares.

with the number of unemployed pilots willing to work for ANY KIND OF SALARIES and the "COVID excuse"......I don't see anyone or union in a position to negociate anything, but I could be wrong

That is the sad part, in Australia where it only seems to go from bad to worse with "outbreaks" and lockdowns it is an even quicker race to the bottom than it used to be and believe me, the folks who call the shots are likely salivating at the bargaining power they hold right now when it comes to contracts and negotiations.

[Going Nowhere]

I missed the “announcement” of 4 A330s to EFA? Has that been announced? Or is it just a rumour?

Not sure how they’ll cover the post Covid network with four less airframes. Suspect that if they do decide to go down that road they’ll need load up on extra 787s to cover them.

Out of interest, what is the difference in cost between an A330 crew and a B787 crew if they were to work an identical roster over 12 months?

No shortage of 787's available at short notice if required and also no reason they can't be configured in a higher density layout to closer match the A330-300.

[74world]

Out of interest, what is the difference in cost between an A330 crew and a B787 crew if they were to work an identical roster over 12 months?

No shortage of 787's available at short notice if required and also no reason they can't be configured in a higher density layout to closer match the A330-300.

about the same in mainline between the 330 and 787, not compare with EFA.
the initial comment mentioned 4 A330 possibly going to EFA (freighters)
Mainline could compensate the departure of 4 330 with Network, Alliance and Cobham, picking up the slack.

[Chronic Snoozer]

That is the sad part, in Australia where it only seems to go from bad to worse with "outbreaks" and lockdowns it is an even quicker race to the bottom than it used to be and believe me, the folks who call the shots are likely salivating at the bargaining power they hold right now when it comes to contracts and negotiations.

What goes around, comes around. The worm could turn pretty quickly in 18 months or so.

[Ollie Onion]

Well lets hope that our industry colleagues don’t use the “COVID excuse” to completely rid themselves of all dignity and self respect.

Ha ha, unemployed pilots will take ANY job on offer no matter what without consideration for how it will impact Qantas Mainline pilots. Qantas Mainline pilots don’t even try and support their own colleagues which is not unique to them by the way. We live I. An industry where mainline pilots advocate for the shutdown of Jetconnect, Jetstar OZ pilots advocate for shutting down Jetstar NZ so they can do the flying, we don’t care about fellow pilots in our own group of companies so why would anyone else.

[ManillaChillaDilla]

Well said Ollie.

Dignity and self respect aren't part of the mainline pilots vocabulary.

Always ironic that the " Best of the Best " usually act in such a teenage way when it comes to their interactions with other group pilots.

Their antics are always good for a laugh however.

MCD

[Keg]

Keg’s Law: The longer a PPRUNE discussion about Qantas goes on the greater chance there is of it turning into a mainline v JQ stoush.

I may need to amend this law to include ‘all other pilot groups’ instead of just JQ.

[crosscutter]

MCD has an axe to grind?

It is quite an uninformed and baseless post. For me incorrectly or not, and it may change in the future, I don’t consider Jetconnect, Cobham, Network or Alliance employees my colleagues. I doubt Jetstar consider Jetstar NZ their colleagues either. The fact there is a star or a roo on the tail might pander to that illusion. At the same time I wish those that work there the best. It’s not their fault after all. We are all trying to do the job we are professionally trained to do and trying to survive under very challenging conditions. I will sacrifice and look after all of my Mainline family. History has shown I’m not alone with this attitude…the proof is there. With management pitting section against section you can’t be friends with everyone but I’m happy knowing I’m surrounded by people who care. There is plenty of self respect and dignity, but like I said, everyone draws a line in the sand somewhere and not everyone can be your brothers and sisters. So give me a break with all the Mainline shows no respect/dignity/support b#llsh*t. Get over it, and do the job you are privileged to have if you are flying at the moment.

[SHVC]

Wow! there are some real turds here, I have never, or know of anyone in OZ that feels any animosity or disapproval for JQ NZ.
JQ will be just fine post covid, lets back back to QF post covid after all that is the thread title. .

[maggot]

Wow! there are some real turds here, I have never, or know of anyone in OZ that feels any animosity or disapproval for JQ NZ.
JQ will be just fine post covid, lets back back to QF post covid after all that is the thread title. .

Some serious projection goin' on that's for sure

[nvfr]

Wow! there are some real turds here, I have never, or know of anyone in OZ that feels any animosity or disapproval for JQ NZ.
JQ will be just fine post covid, lets back back to QF post covid after all that is the thread title. .


really!!! Jetstar NZ are on a **** daily pay deal trying to make ends meet. When some Tasman flying comes along Jetstar Australia says no that’s our flying even though the Aussie A320 crew are fully stood up and in overtime. So much for the ANZAC spirit

[SHVC]

I have never heard anyone in OZ saying "That's our Tasman flying"as you so infer. As for their pay deal, well NZ is another country after all, what ever has been done I'm sure is legal in that jurisdiction. This is a QF thread after all who would of thought JQ would take over.

[nvfr]

I have never heard anyone in OZ saying "That's our Tasman flying"as you so infer.


Ask the AFAP about that.

[Cessna Jockey]

really!!! Jetstar NZ are on a **** daily pay deal trying to make ends meet. When some Tasman flying comes along Jetstar Australia says no that’s our flying even though the Aussie A320 crew are fully stood up and in overtime. So much for the ANZAC spirit


I am a JQ NB FO in a base that operates trans Tasman. I have always said give as much to the Kiwi’s as humanly possibly and keep me well away from overtime!

I do miss the duty free though…:}

[Thumb War]

If the situation was reversed and we were talking about Air New Zealand and their lower cost Australian subsidiary, how much sympathy would be flowing westbound across the Tasman?

Anyway, it’s irrelevant. Each pilot body takes what it can. There is no unity, just repeated backing of the horse called “self interest”.

[oldm8ey]

If the situation was reversed and we were talking about Air New Zealand and their lower cost Australian subsidiary, how much sympathy would be flowing westbound across the Tasman?

Please excuse my ignorance. Does Air NZ have a LCC subsidiary in Aus?

[Thumb War]

Please excuse my ignorance. Does Air NZ have a LCC subsidiary in Aus?

Hence starting my post with “if” - it’s a hypothetical.

The point of my post was that no group would behave any better or differently than the other, and their perspective of what’s fair or right will generally be based on what favours them.

Also, I said lower cost not LCC -
Qantas - JetConnect
Jetstar - Jetstar NZ

All that happens is everyone feels aggrieved and the various groups fight. Again, everyone just looking out for themselves.

[Ollie Onion]

Yes, don’t get me wrong, I did say that Qantas Mainline is the same as every other airline in that it’s own pilots looks after themselves number one. I just always am amazed at the whole ‘well hopefully no one will stoop so low as to take that job’! We are all in this for ourselves and if I can get a flying job in this market that puts a pay check in the account I am going to take it without consideration for how it may affect Qantas Mainline pilots, it is not personal but people have to work and sadly management know it and abuse that fact.

[ManillaChillaDilla]

Cessna Jockey,

It must be a struggle not being able to pick up your duty free.

I bet the senior guys in your company who still arent working will be wrapped with your attitude.

Well done.

MCD.

[V-Jet]

Cessna Jockey,

It must be a struggle not being able to pick up your duty free.

I bet the senior guys in your company who still arent working will be wrapped with your attitude.

Well done.

MCD.

If contracts were appropriate, Duty Free savings of a few shekels a week would not be so important. I'd suggest a serious discussion with a good union rep if you can't join the dots yourself:)

[Lambswool]

Cessna Jockey,

It must be a struggle not being able to pick up your duty free.

I bet the senior guys in your company who still arent working will be wrapped with your attitude.

Well done.

MCD.
You must not be too familiar with sarcasm. Or bothered to read Cj's first paragraph... :ugh:

[ManillaChillaDilla]

Deleted.

MCD

[Fonz121]

Qantas pilots lay bare mental toll from not flying

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/qantas-pilots-lay-bare-mental-toll-from-not-flying-20210706-p5877h.html

[Ollie Onion]

The quicker people realise that Qantas Group Management don’t give a **** about individual employees the better. It is happening across the board, in NZ we had one base stood down while the other flew full time and apart from the first 12 weeks there was NO Government payments, they were on their own. In OZ you have Jetstar 787 Pilots stood down whilst the Narrowbody fleet was looking at recruiting. Management don’t care, they are engineering the survival of the airline to ensure most of the staff may have a future job to return to, that sucks if you are one that has been chosen to sacrifice your salary for 2 years but complaining to Management won’t help. Do what I did, remove yourself from social media, don’t partake in roadshows and press delete on your company communication emails…… you will be much happier.

[Lookleft]

Good advice. A further bit of advice FWIW, do not consider your employer or your employment to be part of a corporate family. They are not your family and as many people have discovered they are only interested in their survival and are more than happy to have you bare the brunt of corporate decisions. I am all for the QF&JQ social media page as a form of non-corporate communication but casual workplace connections don't last beyond your staff number. My relationship with my employer is limited to, me doing the best job I am capable of doing, them paying me what I am entitled to. If I am part of a QF Group family then that makes AJ the patriarch, no thanks.

[Street garbage]

Totally agree with Ollie Onion, Qantas Management don't give a damn...you only to read this mornings SMH, with the Yammer post's that have been leaked, to see the total disregard they have for the welfare of their Crew. The absolute BS lies about other positions being available within the Group...sorry, how many crew have got an interview for Alliance or Q-Link Dash 8 positions that were "advertised"...zero. They should be ashamed, but you only have to look at how they have treated the Ground Service staff to see where this is heading.

[blubak]

Totally agree with Ollie Onion, Qantas Management don't give a damn...you only to read this mornings SMH, with the Yammer post's that have been leaked, to see the total disregard they have for the welfare of their Crew. The absolute BS lies about other positions being available within the Group...sorry, how many crew have got an interview for Alliance or Q-Link Dash 8 positions that were "advertised"...zero. They should be ashamed, but you only have to look at how they have treated the Ground Service staff to see where this is heading.
I havent seen any of the leaked posts but really dont need to.
The attitude of management towards their staff has been disgraceful for many years.
They care little or zero about anyone except themselves & when they tell you how they know how much you are suffering that is BS as suggested above.
The ground service staff f over is a great indication of what they think of everyone but we still have the model employees bending over backwards to help them out.
1 day they will realise they have advanced to #1 on the shafting list.

[PoppaJo]

It really stood out to me when I did that 6 month stint at Woolworths last year. The top tile of the strategy in that place is, customer and team come first. I got to sit in on one of the Town Halls they had there. A CEO who actually cares, and does a good job. Cost is never talked about. No negativity. One Plan. It’s all about the customer and team.

It was actually quite depressing returning back here. Doesn’t need to be like this. All starts from the top. Unfortunately the rot has cascaded right down here. I hope the next generation has better luck.

My advice to the young ones I work with is much the same. Don’t be like these people and the company will thrive. What we see isn’t normal. I look forward to the generation changeover in 20 years I’m sure it will be a better place to work.

[Going Nowhere]

Totally agree with Ollie Onion, Qantas Management don't give a damn...you only to read this mornings SMH, with the Yammer post's that have been leaked, to see the total disregard they have for the welfare of their Crew. The absolute BS lies about other positions being available within the Group...sorry, how many crew have got an interview for Alliance or Q-Link Dash 8 positions that were "advertised"...zero. They should be ashamed, but you only have to look at how they have treated the Ground Service staff to see where this is heading.

Both QLink and Alliance have QF crew who are on either LWOP or secondment. They are on current ground schools and would be close to type ratings/sims by now.

[Keg]

True enough. There have been a few.

There have also been many who have been knocked back such as a S/O with extensive turbo prop time not even getting a look in with QLink.

[Sparrows.]

True enough. There have been a few.

There have also been many who have been knocked back such as a S/O with extensive turbo prop time not even getting a look in with QLink.

And lots of boys and girls with 2, 3, 4 or 5,000 hours 320 time that couldn’t even get an interview in the west.

[Brakerider]

And lots of boys and girls with 2, 3, 4 or 5,000 hours 320 time that couldn’t even get an interview in the west.

lots of guys with 5000 hours couldn’t even get an interview at Mainline while they hired grade 3 instructors as SOs. There is no rhyme or reason when it comes to recruitment and most of us have learnt to accept that.

[PPRuNeUser0184]

Totally agree with Ollie Onion, Qantas Management don't give a damn...you only to read this mornings SMH, with the Yammer post's that have been leaked, to see the total disregard they have for the welfare of their Crew. The absolute BS lies about other positions being available within the Group...sorry, how many crew have got an interview for Alliance or Q-Link Dash 8 positions that were "advertised"...zero. They should be ashamed, but you only have to look at how they have treated the Ground Service staff to see where this is heading.

Alliance is not part of the Qantas Group.

And as mentioned, there are QF pilots there on LWOP doing Type Ratings.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

There is no rhyme or reason when it comes to recruitment and most of us have learnt to accept that.

Experience, and I mean industry experience as opposed to flying experience, is a threat to management. Someone who has been around long enough to amass thousands of hours has also been around long enough to have had their fill of company BS. Some “kid” off the street with dreams of getting to the big time will do almost anything to make it. The rhyme and the reason is industrial, pure and simple.

[Keg]

lots of guys with 5000 hours couldn’t even get an interview at Mainline while they hired grade 3 instructors as SOs. There is no rhyme or reason when it comes to recruitment and most of us have learnt to accept that.

I agree that there is frequently no rhyme or reason about a recruitment process but those sort of idiosyncrasies are a very different issue to stood down crew with ‘no useable work’ not getting a look in despite being very qualified for the role when other parts of the group are recruiting externally.

[mince]

Group???? There is no Group.

It is a series of completely separate stand alone entities.

[havick]

In most other countries including the US if you’re furloughed, generally almost all new employers require you to fully resign/terminate recall rights in order to be hired.

[ScepticalOptomist]

In most other countries including the US if you’re furloughed, generally almost all new employers require you to fully resign/terminate recall rights in order to be hired.

We haven’t been furloughed - we’ve been placed in limbo. Big difference. If we had been made redundant and paid as such, it’d be a different conversation.

[dr dre]

We haven’t been furloughed - we’ve been placed in limbo. Big difference. If we had been made redundant and paid as such, it’d be a different conversation.

Redundancies are done Last On First Off. Most of the redundant crew would’ve had only had a year or so of employment therefore only be entitled to a few weeks of redundancy payout, which isn’t going to sustain them for long. Only a little more than gaining annual leave on stand down really.

[Tucknroll]

Redundancies are done Last On First Off. Most of the redundant crew would’ve had only had a year or so of employment therefore only be entitled to a few weeks of redundancy payout, which isn’t going to sustain them for long. Only a little more than gaining annual leave on stand down really.

That’s not what the company think. They believe redundancy is limited to which agreement you work under LHEA/SHEA.

[NGsim]

The quicker people realise that Qantas Group Management don’t give a **** about individual employees the better. It is happening across the board, in NZ we had one base stood down while the other flew full time and apart from the first 12 weeks there was NO Government payments, they were on their own. In OZ you have Jetstar 787 Pilots stood down whilst the Narrowbody fleet was looking at recruiting. Management don’t care, they are engineering the survival of the airline to ensure most of the staff may have a future job to return to, that sucks if you are one that has been chosen to sacrifice your salary for 2 years but complaining to Management won’t help. Do what I did, remove yourself from social media, don’t partake in roadshows and press delete on your company communication emails…… you will be much happier.

I agree Ollie - except that management are engineering the survival so most have a job to return to.
The airline will only survive, and thus most jobs, If thats the best method for the parasites at the top to make the best out of this scenario for their own personal gain and legacy.

[havick]

We haven’t been furloughed - we’ve been placed in limbo. Big difference. If we had been made redundant and paid as such, it’d be a different conversation.

You're missing my point.

furlough in the US is basically the same, limbo. You’re essentially fired but with recall rights.

My point is that any operator hiring typically only hires pilots that give up their recall rights.

[Street garbage]

You're missing my point.

furlough in the US is basically the same, limbo. You’re essentially fired but with recall rights.

My point is that any operator hiring typically only hires pilots that give up their recall rights.

And what's you point? They are stood down, without pay, for an indefinite period of time, due to there "being no useful work", yet other section's of the Company- Alliance, Network- to which these stood crew were advised they could apply to- are recruiting externally, whilst they can't even get an interview. Management is deliberately placing barriers in their way to stop them being employed- any other explanation is just the usual QF Management BS spin.
Comparing furlough and being "Stood Down" is irrelevant, to accept the offer of employment within the Group then you have to take LWOP.

[Torukmacto]

Late 90’s a %100 Qantas owned airline had no work , jetstar interviewing but pilots told it’s a separate airline and you’ll need to organise your own interview . Mainline union said they can’t help . All pilots let go . They have long history of not wanting to help too much along with unions protecting their own work .

[Street garbage]

Late 90’s a %100 Qantas owned airline had no work , jetstar interviewing but pilots told it’s a separate airline and you’ll need to organise your own interview . Mainline union said they can’t help . All pilots let go . They have long history of not wanting to help too much along with unions protecting their own work .

Late 90"s..really?
Impulse aquired November 2001
Jetstar announced 2003, first service May 2004.
Please tell me which 100% owned airline had no work, because 95-97 and 99 onwards mainline was recruiting continuously.
As for AIPA protecting their own work- that is the whole basis of the above pots, AIPA is trying cover Network/ Alliance (etc etc) Pilots whilst not protecting the interest of their Mainline Crew- LH speaks for itself, SH Divisor (before this outbreak) was trending southwards due to increased flying (ask any SH crew in Perth/ Adelaide).

[Torukmacto]

Southern was name of airline . Pilots approached Qantas union but was told go away we don’t look after turbo prop pilots ! Although half the pilots where flying jets and had lots of jet experience . Impulse was turned into jetstar and Southern had to go . There was a job offer to go to Eastern so not all bad news .

[havick]

And what's you point? They are stood down, without pay, for an indefinite period of time, due to there "being no useful work", yet other section's of the Company- Alliance, Network- to which these stood crew were advised they could apply to- are recruiting externally, whilst they can't even get an interview. Management is deliberately placing barriers in their way to stop them being employed- any other explanation is just the usual QF Management BS spin.
Comparing furlough and being "Stood Down" is irrelevant, to accept the offer of employment within the Group then you have to take LWOP.

Not really, there’s nothing stopping a pilot from quitting their stood down job (giving up recall rights) in order for another company to take them on the books.

I don’t agree with how QF or VA has handled their pilot group, but that being said it’s really no surprise that another company is shying away from hiring pilots that still have their foot back the pond of their old employer.

[Keg]

Southern was closed down in about '99 and the jets were sent to (and I think operated by) National Jet Systems as QLink. Then NJS was equipped a few years later with the B717 when Jetstar started with the A320.

[Lookleft]

There was a period of time between 2001 when QF bought Impulse and when Jetstar was started in 2004, that Impulse operated as QLink. AIPA were slow to understand what was going on and took a while before they come to the realisation that the other Group airlines were here to stay and they needed to reach out to those pilots. From memory that didn't start to happen until around 2008.

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

Southern were still operating the three BAE-146’s post September 2001.

[Torukmacto]

There was a period of time between 2001 when QF bought Impulse and when Jetstar was started in 2004, that Impulse operated as QLink. AIPA were slow to understand what was going on and took a while before they come to the realisation that the other Group airlines were here to stay and they needed to reach out to those pilots. From memory that didn't start to happen until around 2008.
Thanks for the heads up .

A few SAA people drifting back to Aus now and they might be lucky enough to get a job flying for one of the Qantas operators . Hearing a mainline pilot complaining he should be first to get a group job ahead of someone off the street will be of little interest to such a person .
Good luck to us all .

[Beer Baron]

A few SAA people drifting back to Aus now and they might be lucky enough to get a job flying for one of the Qantas operators . Hearing a mainline pilot complaining he should be first to get a group job ahead of someone off the street will be of little interest to such a person.
Very hard to see the point you are trying to make when almost every part of your original post is incorrect.
Jetstar did not exist in the late 90’s.
Qantas did not own Impulse at that time.
AIPA couldn’t have legally done anything for the Southern pilots because they did not have coverage of them.
And your point that current Qantas pilots shouldn’t expect jobs at other group airlines because Southern pilots weren’t offered the same, is completely undone by your own statement:
There was a job offer to go to Eastern so not all bad news .

[neville_nobody]

There was a period of time between 2001 when QF bought Impulse and when Jetstar was started in 2004, that Impulse operated as QLink. AIPA were slow to understand what was going on and took a while before they come to the realisation that the other Group airlines were here to stay and they needed to reach out to those pilots. From memory that didn't start to happen until around 2008.

Or they were under strict orders not to do anything. Given the number of AIPA Presidents who magically have ended up in QF management my money would not be on they didn't understand what was going on. Blind Freddy could see what was happening but you have to actually want to represent Pilot interests if you want to do something.

[HF3000]

Or they were under strict orders not to do anything. Given the number of AIPA Presidents who magically have ended up in QF management my money would not be on they didn't understand what was going on. Blind Freddy could see what was happening but you have to actually want to represent Pilot interests if you want to do something.
I think the number of AIPA Presidents to end up in QF Management over the past 3 or so decades is about 2.

And I don’t think either of them pushed the Association in the direction you have indicated.

Admittedly, the last one was fairly recent, and his movement to management was widely frowned upon.

There was a brief president who didn’t want to expand to represent Group entities around the time of the commencement of Jetstar. He got voted out. Some folks blame him for creating an “us vs them” industrial climate that exists to this day.

However, since it’s formation, AIPA was not permitted to represent other entities, including other Qantas Group entities. The government had a change of policy at some stage (under John Howard I think) and decided to encourage Union competition rather than prohibit it.

I believe a rule change was sought by AIPA in 2005 (under RH). It was opposed by every party under the sun, including AFAP, and of course, Qantas, Jetstar and QantasLink, and I think it took at least a couple of years of legal process to succeed. Since then, AIPA has been able to represent other group entities. Since then, some pilots in group entities have chosen AIPA, some have chosen AFAP, and some have looked at the whole mess and chosen nothing.

AFAP got it’s own back recently by going through a similar process to allow it to represent QF mainline pilots, which was, of course, opposed by AIPA, and interestingly, Qantas.

AFAP succeeded.

[Telfer86]

Likely 12 months ago I was howled down for having the temerity to suggest the following
1. Two years in (March 2022) getting back to 50% domestic & 25% international would be a great effort
2. It would be a good idea to take lwop to protect yourself from redundancy at QF mainline

The shrill responses about there being a pilot shortage, there was going to be some kind of huge "ramp-up" , the A350s are coming
was to me baffling

Nobody delights in the fact that travel is going to be very different for years , but ignoring that reality - well you are missing opportunities to go do
something else

QF international (if there is one in a few years) will look very very different - they are pretty much bust at the moment aren't they , surviving on Fed Govt charity

[ScepticalOptomist]

Likely 12 months ago I was howled down for having the temerity to suggest the following
1. Two years in (March 2022) getting back to 50% domestic & 25% international would be a great effort
2. It would be a good idea to take lwop to protect yourself from redundancy at QF mainline

The shrill responses about there being a pilot shortage, there was going to be some kind of huge "ramp-up" , the A350s are coming
was to me baffling

Nobody delights in the fact that travel is going to be very different for years , but ignoring that reality - well you are missing opportunities to go do
something else

QF international (if there is one in a few years) will look very very different - they are pretty much bust at the moment aren't they , surviving on Fed Govt charity

You are definitely a special one Telfer. I pity you.

[Thumb War]

You are definitely a special one Telfer. I pity you.

Spot on


filler

[Tucknroll]

Mock Telfer all you like but he’s a lot closer to an accurate prediction than the other Pollyanna views on this thread.

We are in the worst crisis in the history of commercial aviation and our union is voting today on whether or not to give the President a pay rise. What a pathetic insult to the rest of us.

[C441]

We are in the worst crisis in the history of commercial aviation and our union is voting today on whether or not to give the President a pay rise. What a pathetic insult to the rest of us.
Not a pay rise as such. They were going to vote (now deferred) on whether to return to paying the President at all.

Meanwhile…. (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/latest-news/wages-of-australias-top-bosses-revealed/news-story/37836781c82797aadc6c132003d457ff)
The 20 highest-paid ASX200 CEOs on a realised-pay basis in FY20:
……..12. Alan Joyce, Qantas Airways, $10.74m

​​​​​​​Now that may be considered by some to be insulting…..or worse.

[Beer Baron]

Likely 12 months ago I was howled down for having the temerity to suggest the following
1. Two years in (March 2022) getting back to 50% domestic & 25% international would be a great effort
2. It would be a good idea to take lwop to protect yourself from redundancy at QF mainline
Seems odd to want to point out that your predictions were wrong and your advice would have cost pilots thousands of dollars in lost wages.

1. QF domestic has been bouncing between 65 and 100% of pre-COVID capacity lately. 9 months prior to your prediction horizon.

2. No QF pilot has been made compulsorily redundant. So a year of LWOP, as suggested by you, would have cost them 7 and a half weeks of missed leave entitlements for absolutely no benefit. In fact, some of those who were frightened/threatened into taking LWOP have now been asked to come back early.

[Keg]

To be fair on poor old Alan, that was about 25% less than he deserved given he worked for nothing in April, May and June last year.

[/end sarcasm]

[Telfer86]

BB you are counting empty aircraft flying around

As an aside , do you actually believe that data regarding number of flights anyway ? Sounds V fishy , are you sure it isn't an excitable CEO blowing his horn

I would be counting paying RPT pax & if you look at the Bitre data , we might have got to 50% in May , unfortunately that will take a nosedive

A more accurate measure would to look at both RPT (nos) and also RPKs

It is a real shame not only for aviation - the hotel industry etc etc have been decimated . There must be 100s of thousands who have been put out of work

Everyone is gun-shy about travelling to an interstate capital that does hotel quarantine

Nobody wishes for redundancies anywhere , but if the international division is grounded for years & bust - you might think redundancies are a fair chance

Free country & all but an upside of 7.5 weeks of entitlements Vs a downside of redundancy & returning years later on a B scale - well that is what a free country is all about. Each to their own

[jrfsp]

Not only loads but yields.
Aside when borders are about to close and there is a mad scramble. Yields are still poor. Corporate demand is still way down and will likely take a long time / may never recover to pre covid levels.

[Paragraph377]

To be fair on poor old Alan, that was about 25% less than he deserved given he worked for nothing in April, May and June last year.

[/end sarcasm]

Hopefully the $100m + that has benefited his bank account since he took over as CEO will see him in good steed and ensure that he weathers this COVID storm. Indeed these are unprecedented times, even for our handsomely rewarded c-suite grubs.

[Street garbage]

I don't give a toss how much he earns- but how anyone could pocket $400k term a week whilst long term employees are unable to access sick leave, and whilst most LH employees survive on Government handouts, is beyond me. He should be ashamed, especially as P377 above said, he has already gouged $100million plus out of the Company.

[Street garbage]

You are definitely a special one Telfer. I pity you.
Gold mate.
As we are seeing on social media with the NSW premier, Australians love revelling in other's misfortune.

[PoppaJo]

Float Jetstar Australia. 3/4 of it. Business is rife for it. Would be a huge cash grab and would repair much of the financial damage done.

Victoria falling over now. Might have no choice soon.

A future executive will do it one day might as well just get it over and done with right now.

[Beer Baron]

BB you are counting empty aircraft flying around

Do you actually believe that data regarding number of flights anyway ? Sounds V fishy. I would be counting paying RPT pax & if you look at the Bitre data , we might have got to 50% in May.

A more accurate measure would to look at both RPT (nos) and also RPKs

Free country & all but an upside of 7.5 weeks of entitlements Vs a downside of redundancy & returning years later on a B scale
Yes, of course I am counting flying empty aircraft around. I just flew an “empty” aircraft up to Shanghai (cargo only). I and the other pilots will be paid for the duty, including the S/O who came back early from unnecessary LWOP. That is what matters in this discussion, not how many are pax onboard. It is not the time for caring about Qantas’s profit margins, it is time to worry about getting the maximum number of pilots back to work.

As for the stats, well I trust the published figures a lot more than I trust your own glass-half-empty metrics. But since you asked, the most recent BITRE stats are for April 2021 and compared to 2019 RPT pax numbers were at 68% and RPK at 66%. Qantas’s share of those numbers have obviously gone up as they have taken market share due to the unfortunate events at the Virgin group.
Having actually been out there flying, with double daily widebody services to CNS and DRW with 80%+ load factors, I have seen the rebound in domestic capacity. Admittedly it will take a hit out of NSW for a while but history has shown that it will come roaring back once borders reopen.

And your final point is a false dichotomy. No one has been sacked, stand down is far cheaper for the company and with the end in sight now I find it very hard to see CR suddenly being entertained. All coms from the company support this.
So the true options are; take LWOP and be assured you will do no flying and miss out on your leave entitlements Vs remain stood down, possibly be asked to fly in the next 6 months and collect 7.5 weeks leave regardless.

[turbantime]

Expensive pre-flight Covid tests are expected to become a standard part of overseas travel until late 2022, even in countries with high levels of vaccination.

New Zealand recently introduced the requirement for “bubble” travellers from Australia, as an added layer of health certainty amid the pandemic.

A survey of 331 airline, airport and travel industry managers by the CAPA Centre for Aviation and Collinson Group found the majority believed pre-flight Covid tests were the key to reopening borders, as the vaccination rollout continued.

Collinson Asia Pacific president Todd Hancock said 51 per cent thought some form of robust testing would be needed as a “stop gap” until vaccination rates substantially lifted.

Another 32 per cent believed testing protocols would continue for the next three years, while just 13 per cent expected testing to be phased out in 2021.

“It’s likely that despite the fact the Asia Pacific was first into the pandemic, we’re probably going to be last out due to the low vaccination rates,” Mr Hancock said.

As a result, travellers themselves won’t feel comfortable unless there are strict health protocols in place when they fly – things like temperature checks at airports, testing measures and standardised digital health passports.”

The cost of pre-flight Covid tests could prove a major disincentive to travel however, adding about $150 a person to the price of a flight from Australia, or as much as $600 for a family of four.

Research by the International Air Travel Association found the cost of tests varied wildly from country to country, with Malaysia charging around $36 a test, and Japan $360.

“It’s definitely going to discourage people and put travel beyond the reach of many people if expensive PCR testing is required,” IATA chief executive Willie Walsh said.

“I’m hopeful we can see a change in that and I’m hopeful of seeing prices come down.”

Submitting to a pre-flight Covid test was generally viewed as preferable to quarantine however, particularly for business travellers.

Mr Hancock said their survey found even seven-days of quarantine was considered too long for business trips, with the sentiment strongest in Singapore.

“The survey showed 71 per cent of travellers in Singapore would be hesitant to travel while quarantine requirements were in place, compared to 57 per cent in Hong Kong and 49 per cent in China,” he said.

There was some concern among the travel industry respondents about fraudulent test results and fake vaccination certificates, highlighting the need for accredited testing solutions and digital health passports, Mr Hancock said.

“The global travel recovery won’t be immediate, but we do have the unique opportunity to make things better than ever before by working together to evolve current practices,” he said.

Source (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/preflight-covid-tests-set-to-become-the-norm-survey-says/news-story/f4e90b60c48a869bff65c3a075f85b3b)

[Foxxster]

Cost of tests are going to be an issue especially for families but more worrying issues are.

what happens if you or one in your family test positive in the test before you leave your holiday destination.. two weeks in quarantine there. An extra two weeks accomodation expense having to be found at the last minute so top rate. Plus missing two weeks work. Oh, and if you are lucky, you might get dragged out of your hotel by the police at 2 in the morning to be taken to a quarantine centre, for which you have to pay.

assuming we use a traffic light system like the uk, what happens if your holiday destination goes from green to orange or red just before you leave, or worse after you arrive. If it goes to red you would probably get a refund, orange, well the plane is still able to go…

and on top of that, have you had the CORRECT vaccine because some are better than others, and some are not accepted.

I can’t see international travel quickly returning while these issues exist. Which will probably be for at least another twelve months.

https://youtu.be/kU-dxdxizKk

[SHVC]

Any word on stand downs?

[ScepticalOptomist]

Any word on stand downs?


Short haul all stood up. Not expecting stand downs last I was told.
Longhaul - status quo - 330/787 rotating pretty much month on month off.

[Stick Flying]

Oh, and if you are lucky, you might get dragged out of your hotel by the police at 2 in the morning to be taken to a quarantine centre, for which you have to pay.


Did they drag them by their arms, legs or hair?

This is the type of BS spin the media use because it suits their rhetoric. The incident is unfortunate and definitely not a great advertisement for a return to normality. But the 'story' is nothing more than a group of entitled youths now crying 'foul' when the country enforces its Covid rules. I also read (in one of the tabloids that uses a similar style of writing to yourself) that one of the parents had insisted the group were 'minors'. Excuse me, you are now worried that your offspring, which you were only too happy to pack off to a Greek party destination, are now not old enough to be treated in accordance with the local restriction rules. Unfortunately these stories seem to sucker in the gullible that want a hookline for their cause. I am quite sure they were either not 'dragged' or they were physically escorted due to refusal to comply. But that wouldn't be anywhere near as scandalous a story.

[Turnleft080]

What Qantas should do Post...Covid.
When these friggen international borders open QF need to hit London, Paris, Frankfurt, Rome, Athens with their own metal. Like the good old days.
Fly them direct, bypass the sand pit and you will fill every seat on those 78s. People are itching and they are done with interstate border closures.

[ScepticalOptomist]

To bypass Perth would need air to air refuelling on those 787s

maybe ask for those A330 MMRTs back?

I think they meant the sandpit as in the Middle East, not Perth! :}

[jrfsp]

I think they meant the sandpit as in the Middle East, not Perth! :}

ahh my mistake

[Turnleft080]

To bypass Perth would need air to air refuelling on those 787s

maybe ask for those A330 MMRTs back?
Roger that. To clarify all flights originate from Perth. Perth-London has been proven, the other European cities are shorter flights.
Problem is they haven't enough 78s or A350s project sunrise thing. They need to find more pronto and if the A380s are still iffy coming back then train up all the remaining 747/A380 crews
Don't know about the union/politics on how that will work, though you got the drift of my intent.

[SOPS]

If only Qantas has some of those rubbish 777s

[ruprecht]

If only Qantas has some of those rubbish 777s
Old technology.

[Tucknroll]

Roger that. To clarify all flights originate from Perth. Perth-London has been proven, the other European cities are shorter flights.
Problem is they haven't enough 78s or A350s project sunrise thing. They need to find more pronto and if the A380s are still iffy coming back then train up all the remaining 747/A380 crews
Don't know about the union/politics on how that will work, though you got the drift of my intent.

Short answer is that it won’t work. The problem is with the SO ranks. The pay on the 78 is complete rubbish for SOs, it’s only attractive for new hires and Qantas aren’t buying 350s any time soon.

12yr A380 SOs stood down, receiving IRP and AL/LSL (not including Personal Leave) are getting just under 50% of a 787 SO salary flying at MGH all year. They’re not far off earning the same take home as a 787 SO flying a BP on/ BP off roster.

Why would they move to the 787 voluntarily or take the risk of not being able to move after the (18 month/ more junior taking promotion) pay protection if moved involuntarily? The only way you’d get them to move is to do a RIN. Then they’ll displace off the 330 if they have any sense. And now you’ve got a cascade of training.

Nice idea Turnleft, but the only way it would work is with fleet pay, and we know how that ends up.

[CaptCloudbuster]

How much AL/ LSL they got left?

[Tucknroll]

How much AL/ LSL they got left?

It’s accruing it at 6 weeks AL and 3/10 of a month LSL per year pro rata during stand down, so it’s ongoing.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Short answer is that it won’t work. The problem is with the SO ranks. The pay on the 78 is complete rubbish for SOs, it’s only attractive for new hires and Qantas aren’t buying 350s any time soon.

12yr A380 SOs stood down, receiving IRP and AL/LSL (not including Personal Leave) are getting just under 50% of a 787 SO salary flying at MGH all year. They’re not far off earning the same take home as a 787 SO flying a BP on/ BP off roster.

Why would they move to the 787 voluntarily or take the risk of not being able to move after the (18 month/ more junior taking promotion) pay protection if moved involuntarily? The only way you’d get them to move is to do a RIN. Then they’ll displace off the 330 if they have any sense. And now you’ve got a cascade of training.

Nice idea Turnleft, but the only way it would work is with fleet pay, and we know how that ends up.

What a bunch of rubbish - if the company got enough 350s or more 787s most of the SOs on the 380 would take FO slots anyway.

I reckon the ones that are too junior for a slot would happily take 787 MGH pay any day over being stood down.

The SO pay on the 787 is far from rubbish - it’s just not the overinflated 380 pay some may be used to.

[Tucknroll]

What a bunch of rubbish - if the company got enough 350s or more 787s most of the SOs on the 380 would take FO slots anyway.

I reckon the ones that are too junior for a slot would happily take 787 MGH pay any day over being stood down.

The SO pay on the 787 is far from rubbish - it’s just not the overinflated 380 pay some may be used to.

It’s not rubbish, it’s numbers. Part 5 section 32 of the EBA if you’ve got access to it.

787 SO pay is low. It’s low, not only compared to Qantas SO rates, but also compared to the industry 787 pay. That’s why clause 32.6 is in there, to protect current SOs to 330 average pay.

And I hardly think the argument for ‘promotions all round’ is valid given the current situation, but thanks as always for your optimism (even if it isn’t skeptical in this instance).

[dr dre]

787 SO pay is low. It’s low, not only compared to Qantas SO rates, but also compared to the industry 787 pay. That’s why clause 32.6 is in there, to protect current SOs to 330 average pay.



Hold on, what other airlines are out there paying substantially more to their cruise relief/SO pilots? The only others I can think of that employ cruise relief/SOs are CX and JQ, and neither of them pay more.

The conditions are appropriate for the entry level nature of the position, pre 2020 there was absolutely no shortage of applicants, plenty with jet airline experience, for recruitment onto the 787 at that pay, so the rates were appropriate at a market level.

[Tucknroll]

Hold on, what other airlines are out there paying substantially more to their cruise relief/SO pilots? The only others I can think of that employ cruise relief/SOs are CX and JQ, and neither of them pay more.

They conditions are appropriate for the entry level nature of the position, pre 2020 there was absolutely no shortage of applicants for recruitment onto the 787 at that pay, so the rates were appropriate at a market level.

Show me an operator who pays a 787 pilot of any rank just over $100k? And we’re talking pre-covid here when the rates were negotiated. It’s even worse when you consider the take home pay of QF 787 pilots compared to the foreign contemporaries.

[dr dre]

Show me an operator who pays a 787 pilot of any rank just over $100k? And we’re talking pre-covid here when the rates were negotiated. It’s even worse when you consider the take home pay of QF 787 pilots compared to the foreign contemporaries.

But SO isn’t just any other rank. It’s an entry level cruise relief job in which you don’t even hold a type rating that allows you in a control seat below FL200. You can’t expect pay for that role to be on par with Capt/FO ranks of any other operator.

[Tucknroll]

But SO isn’t just any other rank. It’s an entry level cruise relief job in which you don’t even hold a type rating that allows you in a control seat below FL200. You can’t expect pay for that role to be on par with Capt/FO ranks of any other operator.

S/Os hold a type rating that allows them to land the plane Dre. There’s no such thing as an S/O type rating.

[Climb150]

S/Os hold a type rating that allows them to land the plane Dre. There’s no such thing as an S/O type rating.

Do Qantas group SOs land the aircraft? If not, the the matter of type rating is moot.

[Sparrows.]

S/Os hold a type rating that allows them to land the plane Dre. There’s no such thing as an S/O type rating.

The only Qantas SO’s that “hold a type rating that allows them to land the plane,” are SO’s that come from that type as an FO.
ie JQ 787 FO whom is now a QF 787 SO, or a CX 330 FO whom is now a QF 330 SO

All other SO’s only have a cruise relief type rating which prohibits them from sitting in a control seat below 20,000’ (I’m not saying an SO with the full TR can be in a control seat below 20,000’, as their full TR isn’t current and the FAM prohibits it also)

[Fonz121]

Are they expected (by the company)to be able to land the aircraft if needed? If the answer is yes than that’s all that really matters.

[Capn Rex Havoc]

Is it safer to have SOs rather than FOs or is it cheaper? You know what the answer is.........

[StudentInDebt]

Is it safer to have SOs rather than FOs or is it cheaper? You know what the answer is......... I have no skin in this game, but if the SOs were called FOs and paid the same money would it be any safer?

[PPRuNeUser0184]

The pay on the 78 is complete rubbish for SOs, it’s only attractive for new hires and Qantas aren’t buying 350s any time soon.

Actually that statement is complete rubbish. Having done a number of jobs outside aviation in the last 16months for minimum wage I can say that from my perspective 100K plus a year to be a SO above 20000ft is a very good wage.

[ConfigFull]

Actually that statement is complete rubbish. Having done a number of jobs outside aviation in the last 16months for minimum wage I can say that from my perspective 100K plus a year to be a SO above 20000ft is a very good wage.

I'm sorry - and I hear you about the average jobs out there - but that is the worst possible take in this situation.

[dr dre]

Actually that statement is complete rubbish. Having done a number of jobs outside aviation in the last 16months for minimum wage I can say that from my perspective 100K plus a year to be a SO above 20000ft is a very good wage.

Even pre Covid they were getting applications from some ex widebody Captains, lots of jet FOs and a flood of turboprop/GA pilots. All of whom knew the 787 rates and obviously were happy with them.

Some may think 747/380 SO rates with overtime should be the standard for a cruise relief position, the market thinks differently. There’ll only ever again be a small handful of SOs getting those legacy rates when a number of 380s return for a while, and then eventually none.

At the end of the day the job can be done by pilots with 250 hours and a bare CPL. It’s a lot of money for an entry level position. Those old school 747/380 rates aren’t ever coming back, regardless of how some wish for a career as a permanent SO.

[StudentInDebt]

Yes.

They would be a highly engaged member of the team, with appropriate qualifications and recurrent training.

Cruise relief is an old legacy concept which is redundant in a modern flight deck, particularly for operations requiring four pilots.I think you missed my point. Is the issue with the name and salary or is it related to the qualifications of the cruise-relief role? FWIW, my former operator, where additional pilots have been CP/SFO/FO and natural crew for 4 pilot ops, prior to COVID was looking at using cruise-relief type-ratings to reduce the training burden. They would have been new entrant FOs, not SOs. Hence my question to Rex as to whether this would be safer rather than cheaper.

[Tucknroll]

Well then surely we can drop the rate of first officers and captains too? Let’s put the whole lot out to tender and see what the lowest possible salary is when someone will take the job.

It’s been demonstrated that people will actually pay for a job flying a jet. Perhaps we could have an eBay style auction to see just how much someone will pay to get in the flight deck of a wide body jet?

And so now we have a sprint to the bottom. There is always someone who will do your job cheaper. It’s easy to argue market dynamics, until it’s about your job.

[StudentInDebt]

Well then surely we can drop the rate of first officers and captains too? Let’s put the whole lot out to tender and see what the lowest possible salary is when someone will take the job.

It’s been demonstrated that people will actually pay for a job flying a jet. Perhaps we could have an eBay style auction to see just how much someone will pay to get in the flight deck of a wide body jet?

And so now we have a sprint to the bottom. There is always someone who will do your job cheaper. It’s easy to argue market dynamics, until it’s about your job.if you’re replying to me, I am not advocating a lower salary for anyone. In the scenario I outlined, the new-entrant FOs would have been on the FO salary scale but would only have been type-rated as cruise-relief pilots. Are they safer because they are called FOs and paid the same?

[dr dre]

Well then surely we can drop the rate of first officers and captains too? Let’s put the whole lot out to tender and see what the lowest possible salary is when someone will take the job.

It’s been demonstrated that people will actually pay for a job flying a jet. Perhaps we could have an eBay style auction to see just how much someone will pay to get in the flight deck of a wide body jet?

And so now we have a sprint to the bottom. There is always someone who will do your job cheaper. It’s easy to argue market dynamics, until it’s about your job.

Captain and FO conditions for the 787 and 350 are fine. The new contracts for those aircraft were more about correcting SO pay. When you have conditions that were encouraging SOs to remain in that position for a career, declining upgrades to widebody FO slots, and making more than SH Captains base pay then you know the position has morphed into something it was never intended to be.

[Capn Rex Havoc]

Student in Debt,

It is not about a name change. EK only had FOs- no SOs. Yes there is a higher training cost in using FOs as augmenting pilots, but you get a safer operation. In three pilot ops, EK went to TWO Captains and 1 FO, as certain states demanded that you always had a captain in a seat. So in summary FO is safer than an SO but is also more expensive, which is why Qantas et al went down the SO track.

[Tucknroll]

Captain and FO conditions for the 787 and 350 are fine. The new contracts for those aircraft were more about correcting SO pay. When you have conditions that were encouraging SOs to remain in that position for a career, declining upgrades to widebody FO slots, and making more than SH Captains base pay then you know the position has morphed into something it was never intended to be.
it’s always nice to be told what my job is worth by a random on the internet. Thanks

[neville_nobody]

It’s a lot of money for an entry level position. Those old school 747/380 rates aren’t ever coming back, regardless of how some wish for a career as a permanent SO.

Argue all you like about money but it isn't a entry level position. Plenty of people with FO jet time and/or regional airline commands have taken SO positions.

[Green.Dot]

Argue all you like about money but it isn't a entry level position. Plenty of people with FO jet time and/or regional airline commands have taken SO positions.

On paper it’s an entry level position.

Plenty of 25 years olds with a couple hundred hours on a Seminole also get the gig.

[ruprecht]

So, the industry is facing the biggest crisis in living memory, and the discussion is SO pay.

Tackling the big issues here.

[DirectAnywhere]

So, the industry is facing the biggest crisis in living memory, and the discussion is SO pay.

Tackling the big issues here.

It's actually kind of refreshing to see at least some things are getting back to normal. (Sore point I know. Sorry.)

[Keg]

Keg’s Law: The longer a PPRuNe discussion about Qantas goes on the greater chance there is of it turning into a mainline v JQ stoush.

I may need to amend this law to include ‘all other pilot groups’ instead of just JQ.

Maybe I need to amend this further to include S/O pay also! :(

[3Greens]

Student in Debt,

It is not about a name change. EK only had FOs- no SOs. Yes there is a higher training cost in using FOs as augmenting pilots, but you get a safer operation. In three pilot ops, EK went to TWO Captains and 1 FO, as certain states demanded that you always had a captain in a seat. So in summary FO is safer than an SO but is also more expensive, which is why Qantas et al went down the SO track.

not sure that’s correct. What states mandate that a Captain must be in a seat at all times? I think EK only did it as they had a shortage of FOs, like BA do from time to time too.

[aviation_enthus]

Argue all you like about money but it isn't a entry level position. Plenty of people with FO jet time and/or regional airline commands have taken SO positions.

It is an entry level position. The minimum requirements also reflect that. You could have been a space shuttle commander and HR will still be comparing you to a 500 hour CPL for the job.

Doesn’t matter what experience you had prior, that’s your own choice (and plenty make it) to leave another job to join Qantas. Some even leave Jet commands because of the allure of a red tail!

Want to join QF in a position that’s befitting your prior experience? Get rid of seniority

[Ollie Onion]

Of course it is an entry level position, it should be paid as such. The fact of the matter is, the previous A380/747 SO Contract was too bloated and overpaid for the position, good on those who were on it but ultimately you should never have a contract that allows you to stay in that position forever as getting a 'promotion' may cost you money. All airlines have learned this, in BA the pay scales were re-done and FO pay scales were capped as they were in the situation that senior FO's would be turning down shortfall commands as it was a pay drop. It doesn't matter that highly experienced people apply for the job, they are doing so as things like lifestyle, location etc are overriding the conditions. Hell, during the last 18 months I worked in a post sorting office with a Check Captain, an ex Emirates A380 Captain and numerous Uni Graduates, the qualifications of the applicants don't change what the role is. In Qantas Mainline the SO position is the entry level position and $100k plus is good pay for such a position. If you were lucky enough to have been on previous gold plated contracts with Qantas, Cathay, BA etc then good for you and defend those conditions aggressively but the market has changed.

[Capn Rex Havoc]

3 Greens - I think China mandated it after a few incidents in their FIR with FOs in the flight deck. So that affected South Korea, and Japan Flights as well.

[Beer Baron]

Must be an EK only rule then. I flew into Shanghai last week and the S/O was sitting in the LHS while the Captain was snoozing in the bunk.

[Capn Rex Havoc]

I flew into Shanghai last week and the S/O was sitting in the LHS while the Captain was snoozing in the bunk.

I'm not sure that's safer than 2 captains, 1 FO....., But I'm CERTAIN its cheaper .....

[Beer Baron]

I’m not debating the safety of having a different crew complement but simply pointing out that it’s hard to believe China has a ‘Captain on the flight deck at all times’ policy.