British Airways-2

[nguba]

By BA's own admission, 75% of its delays are caused by its own internal issues - see slide 92 of the slide deck from IAG's Capital Markets Day linked below:

https://www.iairgroup.com/investors-and-shareholders/financial-reporting/capital-markets-day-2023/

There does seem be a concerted effort to improve operational performance at Heathrow, but BA is supertanker and things take time to turn around.

[andymartin]

Because Dave was explaining that a flight that’s shown on FR24 as 20 minutes late probably left the gate ontime or early according to the schedule.

Just picking a random example, BA219 LHR-DEN today is shown as 1225 scheduled departure, 1243 acutal on FR24.
But the scheduled departure time is the time the aircraft is expected to leave the gate, whereas FR24 is showing the airborne time. The actual departure time according to BA.com was 1218.

So you see the discrepancy. A flight scheduled to leave at 1225 leaves 7 minutes early at 1218, but is misreported by FR24 as leaving 18 minutes late.

And the same thing applies to arrivals in reverse. FR24 shows landing time not arrival at the gate. I was recently on a BA flight that landed 20 minutes early but due to delays on the ground finally arrived on stand 10 minutes late. So the actual arrival was delayed by 10 minutes, whereas FR24 would wrongly report it as 20 minutes early.

We all know fr24 quotes the actual landing and take off times, the poster was saying that the flight in question was 5.5 hours late on one occasion. That is nothing to do with the time differences on fr24!

[sewushr]

I'm sorry Andymartin, but I don't know how you can confidently proclaim that "we all know FR24 quotes the actual landing and take off times". I dare say there are some users who don't know that.

Secondly, the OP's comment was that the flight is rarely on time, ranging from 20 minutes to 5.5 hours late. What Dave Reid was correctly pointing out is that a flight that FR24 shows as 20 minutes late very likely departed from the gate on time. In fact, with Heathrow taxi times usually 20-25 minutes, and most industry observers (including the CAA in their punctuality statistics) treating flights that left the gate up to 15 minutes late as an on time departure, if FR24 shows the departure was up to 40 minutes after the scheduled departure time, it was really on time!

[Mr Mac]

Well she left late at 10.35 and was 20 min late landing.

I went to greet her at the airport with our driver as I had come down with EK earlier and our driver said BA was never on time unquote.

Anyway a quick report from Mrs Mac.

Flight down from Manchester was fine in newish A320 but lounge in Manchester not that great but LH use same brand in T1 so would agree with her.

Inflight Bacon Butty left as had Ketchup on it apparently with no option to be Ketchup free. I know first world problems but asked for the critiqu so that’s what I got.

LHR T5 was quite tired and dirty with worn furniture and fittings. Unbelievably they still have the same issue with Champagne ie it’s not on the bar you have to ask fit it specially, she only wanted to make a Bucks Fiz for gods sake not swim in it 🙄

Flight down was good in 2 year old A350. Crew were good and food was rated highly especially Smoked Salmon and lamb and Cheese.

In flight entertainment was ok but not as good as EK or Singapore but not bad. They were bused at Nairobi rather than air bridge for some reason.

Overall good but some issues. The big thing though is the requirement to transfer at LHR T5 which makes for a long day for those based outside SE which she said would impact her choice if she was paying for it. I will see what I think on our way back up and let you know.

Cheers
Mr Mac

[tictack67]

Well she left late at 10.35 and was 20 min late landing.

I went to greet her at the airport with our driver as I had come down with EK earlier and our driver said BA was never on time unquote.

Anyway a quick report from Mrs Mac.

Flight down from Manchester was fine in newish A320 but lounge in Manchester not that great but LH use same brand in T1 so would agree with her.

Inflight Bacon Butty left as had Ketchup on it apparently with no option to be Ketchup free. I know first world problems but asked for the critiqu so that’s what I got.

LHR T5 was quite tired and dirty with worn furniture and fittings. Unbelievably they still have the same issue with Champagne ie it’s not on the bar you have to ask fit it specially, she only wanted to make a Bucks Fiz for gods sake not swim in it 🙄

Flight down was good in 2 year old A350. Crew were good and food was rated highly especially Smoked Salmon and lamb and Cheese.

In flight entertainment was ok but not as good as EK or Singapore but not bad. They were bused at Nairobi rather than air bridge for some reason.

Overall good but some issues. The big thing though is the requirement to transfer at LHR T5 which makes for a long day for those based outside SE which she said would impact her choice if she was paying for it. I will see what I think on our way back up and let you know.

Cheers

​​​​
Mr Mac

Can you elaborate on the "if she was paying for it"

[Downwind_Left]

Well she left late at 10.35 and was 20 min late landing.

I went to greet her at the airport with our driver as I had come down with EK earlier and our driver said BA was never on time unquote.

Anyway a quick report from Mrs Mac.

Flight down from Manchester was fine in newish A320 but lounge in Manchester not that great but LH use same brand in T1 so would agree with her.

Inflight Bacon Butty left as had Ketchup on it apparently with no option to be Ketchup free. I know first world problems but asked for the critiqu so that’s what I got.

LHR T5 was quite tired and dirty with worn furniture and fittings. Unbelievably they still have the same issue with Champagne ie it’s not on the bar you have to ask fit it specially, she only wanted to make a Bucks Fiz for gods sake not swim in it 🙄

Flight down was good in 2 year old A350. Crew were good and food was rated highly especially Smoked Salmon and lamb and Cheese.

In flight entertainment was ok but not as good as EK or Singapore but not bad. They were bused at Nairobi rather than air bridge for some reason.

Overall good but some issues. The big thing though is the requirement to transfer at LHR T5 which makes for a long day for those based outside SE which she said would impact her choice if she was paying for it. I will see what I think on our way back up and let you know.

Cheers
Mr Mac

If this was BA65 on December 1st the actual departure time was 1015, the airborne time was 1035, but airline schedules are based on gate to gate times as explained above. The flight landed at 2150, and the arrival time was 2159 against the scheduled 2130.

As for the consistently late arrivals into Nairobi, that’s probably true for very good reason. For safety reasons BA are prohibited from using Sudanese airspace (North and South) so are forced to take longer routings to avoid it, extending flying times in both directions.

[Rivet Joint]

Well she left late at 10.35 and was 20 min late landing.

I went to greet her at the airport with our driver as I had come down with EK earlier and our driver said BA was never on time unquote.

Anyway a quick report from Mrs Mac.

Flight down from Manchester was fine in newish A320 but lounge in Manchester not that great but LH use same brand in T1 so would agree with her.

Inflight Bacon Butty left as had Ketchup on it apparently with no option to be Ketchup free. I know first world problems but asked for the critiqu so that’s what I got.

LHR T5 was quite tired and dirty with worn furniture and fittings. Unbelievably they still have the same issue with Champagne ie it’s not on the bar you have to ask fit it specially, she only wanted to make a Bucks Fiz for gods sake not swim in it 🙄

Flight down was good in 2 year old A350. Crew were good and food was rated highly especially Smoked Salmon and lamb and Cheese.

In flight entertainment was ok but not as good as EK or Singapore but not bad. They were bused at Nairobi rather than air bridge for some reason.

Overall good but some issues. The big thing though is the requirement to transfer at LHR T5 which makes for a long day for those based outside SE which she said would impact her choice if she was paying for it. I will see what I think on our way back up and let you know.

Cheers
Mr Mac

Honestly one of the most entitled things I’ve read in my life. Having to ask for the champagne at the bar being portrayed as an unbelievable hardship really is off the charts. Sounds like a thoroughly normal flight with nothing to complain about. Have a look in the news if you want to see what real world problems are.

[laviation]

Ketchup on the bacon butty. Oh, the humanity!

[Asturias56]

Ketchup on the bacon butty. Oh, the humanity!

people asked for feedback - and Mr Mac gave it.

And people who are paying (or have their companies pay) for extra special treatment are entitled to it. They EXPECT free champagne - and if they don't get it theywill take note. Its been clear for some time that T5 Business class isn't a world beating experience - so why will people pay for it? They won't - they'll go elsewhere or they'll trim their expenditure

[laviation]

They expect the free champagne and they get the free champagne! You just have to ask for it !

[Mr Mac]

They expect the free champagne and they get the free champagne! You just have to ask for it !

Well let’s start at the top, people asked for honest feedback and I typed what she said and experienced and some feel that she is somehow being over entitled or something 🙄 It’s Business class on a large international airline FFS.

The flights were free courtesy of AMEX and points apart from UK tax.The comment on Bacon roll is a comment on the food not on anything else. The comment on Champagne is the same as every lounge I and she has been in operated by an airline rather than franchise offers this, it’s not a perk it comes with the ticket and to be frank is expected.

I am sorry that some feel that this is some social commentary or what ever but I was asked to give feedback and that is what I did. Overall she was quite positive of the flight and she pointed out quite small stuff that can be fixed, apart from the getting up early for the flight.
She actually worked in aviation and her views on service etc are probably more valid than some keyboard warriors who may not have the same insight.
Anyway I will see what I find going North and will let you know.

PS
I also dislike Ketchup on a Bacon roll and think Champagne should be available in a World class airline Hub which BA says they are.

I will get back to you post flight with my own observations and would hope that I don’t have to put up with some of the above rather unbecoming comment’s as to be frank I would have expected better, but hay ho !

Cheers
Mr Mac

[SWBKCB]

Honestly one of the most entitled things I’ve read in my life. Having to ask for the champagne at the bar being portrayed as an unbelievable hardship really is off the charts. Sounds like a thoroughly normal flight with nothing to complain about. Have a look in the news if you want to see what real world problems are.

It's called competition - if you competitors are offering a higher standard of service, you can expect to fail.

[Rutan16]

It's called competition - if you competitors are offering a higher standard of service, you can expect to fail.

Nothing “free” when someone/corporation are forking out x2,x5 or x10 base price for a lounge chair, newspaper (these days reasonable wi-if) and bite to eat pre flight maybe a shower and a glass of bubbles and promise of future subsidised travel opportunities - Literally none of that comes close to the cost of provision to be honest but people do value it.

[Mr Mac]

Honestly one of the most entitled things I’ve read in my life. Having to ask for the champagne at the bar being portrayed as an unbelievable hardship really is off the charts. Sounds like a thoroughly normal flight with nothing to complain about. Have a look in the news if you want to see what real world problems are.
Rivet Joint
There is no bar you help yourself with with Wine , Spirits, Beer etc you are not served as such. Therefore you have to find someone who is clearing tables to go back of house to get said beverage. She only found out about this by asking a table of 4 where they got theirs from 😂😂 There is not a sign saying Champagne this way !

As an observation if your competitors offer it why would you not, as the customer has a choice, and looking at the demise of BA passenger numbers outside the SE, I think they may have made it in the UK anyway.

Cheers
Mr Mac

[TURIN]

May I ask which lounge was used at MAN? The old BA one has been closed for a while. Is there another in T3 or one in T1 that domestic pax have access to?
Also, for the record ketchup on a bacon butty is an abomination! HP or nothing. 😁

[Sotonsean]

May I ask which lounge was used at MAN? The old BA one has been closed for a while. Is there another in T3 or one in T1 that domestic pax have access to?
Also, for the record ketchup on a bacon butty is an abomination! HP or nothing. 😁

I'm in total agreement with you, it's definitely HP or nothing 🙂

Along with a nice cuppa tea rather than a bucks fizz 😉

[Mr Mac]

Turin
It is the Escape lounge which is what was the old BA lounge in T3. There is a section facing into the centre of the building given over to BA. I use the same lounge but in T1 with LH.

The best for me in MAN is T1 EK lounge partly as you have a good view of Runway.

As for Bacon butty , good Bacon needs no sauce, but HP would be the one if I had a Bacon butty, but it’s been at least 3,years since I had one, as bread is a Sunday treat

Cheers
Mr Mac

[Asturias56]

As Senora A points out the goodies aren't "free" - they're "included" so if BA are hiding the Champagne out of sight one could say they're ..... cutting corners? :E

The whole point of top class service is that you don't have to ask - the people providing the service anticipate your every whim eg the Mandarin in HK

[Mr Mac]

As Senor A points out the goodies aren't "free" - they're "included" so if BA are hiding the Champagne out of sight one could say they're ..... cutting corners? :E

The whole point of top class service is that you don't have to ask - the people providing the service anticipate your every whim eg the Mandarin in HK
Thank you. I am not sure if I want to post my own observations and thoughts after this flaming and I was not on the bloody flight.

Cheers
Mr Mac

[kcockayne]

Don’t be cowed, Mr.Mac. This is a free country - say what you think ! All decent people will respect it. No slight implied towards anyone.

[spacedog]

BA allocation system for ground staff/ramp staff ihas been down all morning. Keep an eye out for cancellations later today.

[Mr Mac]

Don’t be cowed, Mr.Mac. This is a free country - say what you think ! All decent people will respect it. No slight implied towards anyone.

Thank you for your kind response. Just done 10 landings and take offs in Cessna Caravans today from various bush strips on time. Ryanair would be proud!!

I am not known to be cowed so will see what I/ we found. Mrs Mac was quite favourable over-all in the cabin, but her comments were about airports and ground staff and facilities which she knows a lot about.

I arrive get on an aluminium tube and will judge my journey on that experience. She looks at infrastructure and cleanliness and ease of charging for upgrades, it’s a business not a hobby , when she worked in aviation, and I suspect for many posters re this it has been the later.

Hence my comments will be as SLF as that is what I am, but if something is grubby etc I will say so.


Cheers
Mr Mac

[P330]

Does anyone know what the plan is around the 320 series?

in the last 18 months, multiple aircraft of all 320 variants have been withdrawn and stored. Now many are returning to service months later.

Was this the plan or are other issues causing their unexpected return?

[champair79]

A few retirements are planned for the A319s and a few more A320s are scheduled to go to Euroflyer but generally, the ones currently stored that were flying during and after covid have simply run out of hours and are waiting for hangar space/engineers.

Some of the A321s that were stored during Covid have had corrosion issues as well as finding suitable buyers. Landing charges at LHR have made them uneconomical so a lot of the ex-bmi ones are going for freighter conversion and onwards to other operators.

[WHBM]

Some of the A321s that were stored during Covid have had corrosion issues as well as finding suitable buyers. Landing charges at LHR have made them uneconomical so a lot of the ex-bmi ones are going for freighter conversion and onwards to other operators.
How can the Heathrow landing fees make an A321 uneconomical ?

[vectisman]

The last BA delivered A321ceo G-EUXI which is not yet withBA Euroflyer is in maintenance/ storage in Budapest. I believe this will go to Euroflyer in a few weeks time probably via Heathrow for a few flights with mainline before transferring over to Gatwick. This will be aircraft 21 for Euroflyer. A320 G-MEDK is also said by sources to be going to Euroflyer in time for the summer season which will be number 22.
I do not know if aircraft 23 and 24 will happen or not. However with 10 A320/A321neo deliveries planned for LHR in 2024 there is scope to send a couple more A320ceo to Euroflyer at Gatwick.

The other G-MEDx series aircraft have all left the fleet, some going for freight conversion.

[Rivet Joint]

Rivet Joint
There is no bar you help yourself with with Wine , Spirits, Beer etc you are not served as such. Therefore you have to find someone who is clearing tables to go back of house to get said beverage. She only found out about this by asking a table of 4 where they got theirs from 😂😂 There is not a sign saying Champagne this way !

As an observation if your competitors offer it why would you not, as the customer has a choice, and looking at the demise of BA passenger numbers outside the SE, I think they may have made it in the UK anyway.

Cheers
Mr Mac

Ok in that case it’s a fair comment. It came across in a different way. IAG are so bias to their Spanish ops it doesn’t surprise me that standards at BA are continuing to slide.

[Mr Mac]

Well I came North with BA Monday night from Nairobi, and would make the following comments on the experience on that route and aircraft which was a 3 year old A350. I do quite a bit of time in them with LH and prefer them to 787.

BA use Kenya Airways Pride lounge, which has good views, but I would have to say I would prefer the Turkish lounge used by EK, but there is little in it though view probably better from Kenyan lounge, though as we were there late night little to see but Giraffe graphics on glass looked good and funny with a 787 behind them.

In bound flight was running late by circa 20min which is nothing to do with closed airspace in Sudan , Libya but late departure from LHR. Interestingly our North Bound route was out over Uganda, Congo, Central African Republic, Niger , Chad , Algeria to the Mediterranean. Never been that way before, could be winds, or issues with airspace over Egypt but no comment either way from FD so not sure why.

Boarding a little chaotic as airside lounge space available for around 230 not a A350 so a little tight. Boarded late as a result but not unduly so for African airport.

Business class, so drink before push, and it’s not a long taxi at Nairobi as generally you take off East facing, but this time sharp turn South then heading West as route above. Service was prompt with take off drinks served (order requested and placed pre take off). Food for myself was Lobsters/ Beef/ Cheese. Lobster ok Beef a bit of a miss and Cheese ok, though Blue a little strong for some at height given amount back in galley later. Wines were mostly New World, and pre Dinner drinks pretty standard offer. I would say mixers given BA patriotic drive,would be better with Fevertree, and maybe an offer of low Sugar rather than just Schweppes full fat, after all Jet 2 do !

The inflight entertainment offer wise ok, but music choice appeared to be more mixed compilations rather than individual albums, and not as good a# EK / SQ in that regards, but again arguably first world issue.

Slightly late into LHR but everything typical LHR morning rush ie misplaced Mrs Mac on hop between terminals but caught up in A ! Lounge was I would say, as she described ie very tired with poor clearing of tables, and toilet with cracked sink and well worn tarnished taps and general ironmongery. No champagne but offered Prosecco, but at least on the bar. Many will say first world problems or observation’s, but if you do this a lot, it’s the stuff you notice especially, if involved in construction or facilities management.

Flight up to Manchester pushed on time, and was on newish A320 and inflight Pork Loin was good and checked bag arrived with us.

As for crews Mrs Mac said down bound crew we’re slightly better, but with a Redeye for both passengers and crew it is never going to be their finest hour and the crew I interacted with were fine. They did have an issue when they had to de- plane a young women on the immediate opposite side of the A/C in Business Class post boarding. She was quite vocal against some CC from my observation which is sad.

So overall a bit mixed, and given connection issues from North I could not highly recommend LHR or BA at the moment when flying due partly to this if outside SE. If based in SE UK then LHR is your local airport and some issues go away but have to say it would stress a better experiment SQ/ EK.

I hope the above comes across fairly with not a mixed agenda, but from a observation point of view

Cheers
Mr Mac

[CabinCrewe]

So looks like:
BKK leisure route from LGW 3/wk 772
KUL from LHR daily 789
New Seats in A320/1 Neos, J mid table back!
Free iMessage/WhatsApp for Exec Clubs pax
New F seat for A380
… perhaps some more to be announced

[crewmeal]

Looks like they’re not happy with the new blouse for females. No white or frilly bras to be worn in case the customer gets an eyeful

. https://www.paddleyourownkanoo.com/2024/03/07/british-airways-is-making-changes-to-its-new-uniform-after-admitting-its-not-hitting-the-mark/

[TURIN]

Despite extensive wear tests prior to the rollout, Tremble insisted that the airline had always intended to “assess how the garments perform in the real world because it’s only when the uniform is worn over a sustained period that we can fully understand whether any changes need to be made”.
What a load of bollocks! All of the feed back during the trial was completely ignored. It didn't matter a damn what was said, the working group either didn't care or didn't have the power to over rule the initial design.
​​​​​​​But I'm sure Mr Boateng and his company got paid very well and won't get any blame. 🤬

[CabinCrewe]

have they ever been happy with any uniform? even goes back to the Caribbean BOAC paper dressed

[GROUNDHOG]

Probably not qualified to comment on fashion but just enjoyed two excellent long haul flights with BA. both my wife and I commented on the new blouses some looked really smart and others like they had been w, washed with a pair of black socks and looked rather grey!
Guess it is not what you wear so much as the way you wear it.

[GLCYZ]

Common issues with the uniform:

Female cabin crew blouse is see-through, and the fabric catches and pulls on velcro and hair. Melts easily when ironed and seems to remove makeup. No modesty button so frequently pops open for those of larger bust.
Collar on the dress is high and stiff and has caused rashes on some crew.
Jumpsuit impractical for use on board, reports of it coming apart at the seams.

Male cabin crew shirt collar is wide and clip on tie knot is small so the fake tie knot keeps slipping out from under the collar. Collars are bobbling and shirt cuffs are fraying.
Cabin crew ties prone to fraying.
Men's slim fit trousers with side adjusters instead of belt won't stay up.
Black finish on belt peeling.

Winter scarf constantly shedding purple fluff.

Male pilot shirts have "hidden" pockets which are just a disaster.
Buttons on flight crew jackets break easily.

On a positive note the fabrics in the new uniform (bar the cabin crew blouse) are much more breathable than the old one and the slight stretch in the fabric aids wearability and comfort.

[Sotonsean]

Common issues with the uniform:

Female cabin crew blouse is see-through, and the fabric catches and pulls on velcro and hair. Melts easily when ironed and seems to remove makeup. No modesty button so frequently pops open for those of larger bust.
Collar on the dress is high and stiff and has caused rashes on some crew.
Jumpsuit impractical for use on board, reports of it coming apart at the seams.

Male cabin crew shirt collar is wide and clip on tie knot is small so the fake tie knot keeps slipping out from under the collar. Collars are bobbling and shirt cuffs are fraying.
Cabin crew ties prone to fraying.
Men's slim fit trousers with side adjusters instead of belt won't stay up.
Black finish on belt peeling.

Winter scarf constantly shedding purple fluff.

Male pilot shirts have "hidden" pockets which are just a disaster.
Buttons on flight crew jackets break easily.

On a positive note the fabrics in the new uniform (bar the cabin crew blouse) are much more breathable than the old one and the slight stretch in the fabric aids wearability and comfort.

What a fantastic post.

I enjoyed reading all of it and after suffering from uniform defects in the past I can totally relate to many of the points you have mentioned, in particular the bobbling of the shirt collars as well as the tie clip.

At the end of the day changes aren't always necessary, a few adjustments maybe but what you have described sounds awful.

[PAXboy]

One of the symptoms of modern British mgmt is to ignore feedback from staff. I could quote examples from many different fields where they have feedback sessions, then do what they wanted. When the predicted problems emerge, they assure that they are taking these concerns seriously.

Unfortunately, the govt is being run by modern British managers.

[WHBM]

One of the symptoms of modern British mgmt is to ignore feedback from staff. I could quote examples from many different fields where they have feedback sessions, then do what they wanted. When the predicted problems emerge, they assure that they are taking these concerns seriously.
You are correct. Or even more so, to sneer at staff feedback. You can even see examples in the thread above from the "well, they always complain anyway ..." school of taking notice. Alex Cruz when at BA was a past master of it. Junior acolytes have a part to play, in massaging staff response summaries to make it look more positive than reality, especially for something they feel the Big Boss is behind. In one case I was involved in, honest staff responses about a corporate campaign about showing respect to fellow colleagues were poo-poo'd by some higher management in the board meeting in a manner which was the direct opposite of what the campaign was meant to achieve.

[Claybird]

So, both United and BA will need to decide this year to replace their old 777-200s

BA has yet to cover the capacity problem the retirement of the 747s caused because of the delay of the 777-9 18+24 options from 20204 to 2026, the airplane which is meant to fill the vpppcapaciry void if the 747

BBhas entered negotiations with Airbus and Boeing with the candidates being A350-1000 and B787-10. But with Heathrow scrapping the 3rd runway I wonder if it might order more 777-9 instead

The issue is whoever orders first (United or BA) the other airline will receive massive discounts. If United goes with the A350 Boeing will do everything to win over BA.

What's your take on all of this ? And predictions.

Again BA needs to retire 43 B777-200 by 2030 and United 74

[vectisman]

BA do not necessarily have to decide this year.. They already have plenty of options on long haul aircraft (787-10, A350 and 779) that they just need to firm up. Planned deliveries of the 787-10 this year will take the long haul fleet back to the pre-Covid number. Not all the 777s need to be gone by 2030 either.

[wallp]

Does that include the Gatwick BA fleet? Wondering if BA would put new aircraft into Gatwick or bring across older ones from Heathrow?

So, both United and BA will need to decide this year to replace their old 777-200s

BA has yet to cover the capacity problem the retirement of the 747s caused because of the delay of the 777-9 18+24 options from 20204 to 2026, the airplane which is meant to fill the vpppcapaciry void if the 747

BBhas entered negotiations with Airbus and Boeing with the candidates being A350-1000 and B787-10. But with Heathrow scrapping the 3rd runway I wonder if it might order more 777-9 instead

The issue is whoever orders first (United or BA) the other airline will receive massive discounts. If United goes with the A350 Boeing will do everything to win over BA.

What's your take on all of this ? And predictions.

Again BA needs to retire 43 B777-200 by 2030 and United 74

[vectisman]

Does that include the Gatwick BA fleet? Wondering if BA would put new aircraft into Gatwick or bring across older ones from Heathrow?
I expect initially some 'newer' 777s from Heathrow will move over but will have to be eventually replaced. Most of the long haul routes from Gatwick are very profitable and need
fairly highly capacity aircraft in a 3 class configuration. The current 777s have a capacity of 332.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

You don't know that "most of them are very profitable". None of us do, if they were "very profiitable", they'd be getting Club Suite and not staggering to end of life with 8 abreast, 1/2 of 'em rearward facing. They told us LGW short haul was profitable, and then when COVID came, that was retracted!
BA haven't put new long haul metal into LGW since the hub experiment in the mate 90s, it's always going to be hand me downs unless a new CEO decides he/she has a stellar business case for CAPEX.

[CabinCrewe]

They told us LGW short haul was profitable, and then when COVID came, that was retracted!
Outwith the obvious, I don’t recall seeing a formal retraction regarding specific profitability at LGW?

[vectisman]

You don't know that "most of them are very profitable". None of us do, if they were "very profiitable", they'd be getting Club Suite and not staggering to end of life with 8 abreast, 1/2 of 'em rearward facing. They told us LGW short haul was profitable, and then when COVID came, that was retracted!
BA haven't put new long haul metal into LGW since the hub experiment in the mate 90s, it's always going to be hand me downs unless a new CEO decides he/she has a stellar business case for CAPEX.

These flights are profitable. As for the the club suites the current club world configuration works well for the family groups on the routes from Gatwick.

[TURIN]

Speaking of expansion outside LHR, I'm hearing more internal rumours of BA City flyer A320s being based and operated out of UK regions.

[vectisman]

Speaking of expansion outside LHR, I'm hearing more internal rumours of BA City flyer A320s being based and operated out of UK regions.
If such rumours should ever come it fruition it will more likely be BA Euroflyer, who already operate the A320.

[Albert Hall]

The rumour does keep doing the rounds. It will be interesting to see if they have sufficient spare aircraft to do something - after all, they have three more aircraft's-worth of LGW slots coming back from easyJet next year as well. That would be quite some growth to take those on board and fly from a new regional base too.

[vectisman]

The rumour does keep doing the rounds. It will be interesting to see if they have sufficient spare aircraft to do something - after all, they have three more aircraft's-worth of LGW slots coming back from easyJet next year as well. That would be quite some growth to take those on board and fly from a new regional base too.
They have a number of A320/A321 being delivered to LHR this year. This could free up
some earlier examples for LGW or elsewhere. They also have the option to delay retirements. I think it will also depend on demand and other market conditions.

[SouthernAlliance]

Speaking of expansion outside LHR, I'm hearing more internal rumours of BA City flyer A320s being based and operated out of UK regions.

Any idea of which regional airports?

[laviation]

Any idea of which regional airports?
I have heard suggestions of MAN, would make logical sense as the first step outside of London. Big FF catchment as well as facilities to support expansion, existing IAG long haul presence for possible connections, right market for leisure routes, could it be the time to finally step back in to MAN? Time will tell.

I'd only expect to see Euroflyer at 2 ports outside of London. MAN and maybe a Scottish one. There just aren't the aircraft for more than that.

[TURIN]

If such rumours should ever come it fruition it will more likely be BA Euroflyer, who already operate the A320.
Yes, you're correct, sorry, I can't keep up with the name changes. 😁

[fjencl]

I have heard suggestions of MAN, would make logical sense as the first step outside of London. Big FF catchment as well as facilities to support expansion, existing IAG long haul presence for possible connections, right market for leisure routes, could it be the time to finally step back in to MAN? Time will tell.

I'd only expect to see Euroflyer at 2 ports outside of London. MAN and maybe a Scottish one. There just aren't the aircraft for more than that.

Would be nice for them to reopen a Glasgow BA base.

[Alteagod]

I heard BHD had been mentioned or at least have had discussions with.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Let's get real here! It's a mad idea, bonkers on stilts, a spotters wet dream. Let's test this.
Outside of London ;
Name 5 UK-xyz city pairs that BA could beat easyJet, Ryanair, TUI or Jet2 on?
Name 5 UK-xyz city pairs that BA could beat KLM, Air France, Lufthansa, Swiss or Iberia on?

I cannot concieve of one. They'd be a poor 3rd or 4th in sun volume markets and eaten alive in city business routes with no feed at either end. And that's before you get the notion they'd likely offer Club! I'd love them to try, they have an unbroken record of failure outside of London for......er forever, none of it ever made any real money. Unless it's Go-Fly II, this one's DOA.

[SWBKCB]

Hi Skip - I'm inclined to agree, although there is still a certain cache in the BA name which might attract a few...

We all know that 'profitable' is a moveable feast depending on how costs and revenue are allocated across a network, but what's the rationale for your "none of it ever made any real money" comment (apart from none of them are operating)?

[azz767]

Let's get real here! It's a mad idea, bonkers on stilts, a spotters wet dream. Let's test this.
Outside of London ;
Name 5 UK-xyz city pairs that BA could beat easyJet, Ryanair, TUI or Jet2 on?
Name 5 UK-xyz city pairs that BA could beat KLM, Air France, Lufthansa, Swiss or Iberia on?

I cannot concieve of one. They'd be a poor 3rd or 4th in sun volume markets and eaten alive in city business routes with no feed at either end. And that's before you get the notion they'd likely offer Club! I'd love them to try, they have an unbroken record of failure outside of London for......er forever, none of it ever made any real money. Unless it's Go-Fly II, this one's DOA.


Add into that from a MAN perspective, where the hell are they planning on parking them? T3 cannot take anymore RYR so it would have to involve a terminal move. They won’t go to T1 for 12 months before it shuts surely so that leaves T2 which is logical given EI UK, but T2 is already operating a vast remote parking operation (which I’m not sure is something BA would want) so I don’t know where the space would come from for BA to base 3/4 a/c at MAN. Any smaller op than that surely isn’t viable?

[Flightrider]

I wouldn’t disagree about the commercial prospects, but I keep hearing this rumour too. There must be some scintilla of possibility behind it.

[Sotonsean]

I wouldn’t disagree about the commercial prospects, but I keep hearing this rumour too. There must be some scintilla of possibility behind it.

Just out of curiosity but where are actually 'hearing' these rumours from?

If you're mixing in the same circles perhaps the people around you are continously telling you the same thing. Say it over and over again and people start to believe in whatever they say. I'm certainly not that type of person.

But it's a serious question and it might clarify things if you could let us know the source of these 'rumours' you keep 'hearing'.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Hi Skip - I'm inclined to agree, although there is still a certain cache in the BA name which might attract a few...

We all know that 'profitable' is a moveable feast depending on how costs and revenue are allocated across a network, but what's the rationale for your "none of it ever made any real money" comment (apart from none of them are operating)?
They may have made money in parts in the 80s and 90s regionally but as a whole, the non LHR operation was a feeder for long haul and a "social service" on behalf of the flag carrier. You could see there had been no business case for CAPEX when the One Elevens staggered on for so long flying 99 seats vs. the competition's 115 seat B737-200s then 127 seat B737-300s and 147 seat B737-400s by the early 1990s. Hand me down B737-200s ex LHR just kept them uncompetitive. Putting new A319s into BHX after Ryanair went low cost and easyJet got into Europe was too little too late. They could price gouge out of a dominant LHR but were slaughtered in the regions where they market was (sensibly) more price sensitive. Flying One Elevens or B732s on BHX/MAN-xyz relying on feed from GLA/EDI/ABZ/BFS wasn't tenable beyond the mid 90s, if indeed it ever made money. That's before we get to BA EXPRESS, franchising and the incoherent network planning that came with it. I love BA to bits but never seen them consistently win outside of London in nearly four decades of flying.

Look at the relative competitive landscape and show me a winning non London niche, cos I can't for the life of me see it. Even LGW is doing the BA REGIONAL thing from the mid 90s of a stand alone profit centre flying hand me down mainline or second hand aircraft while everyone else in market buys more efficient new builds. Even IAG's Vueling and Iberia Express have new NEOs, the fact BA EUROFLYER don't, suggests to me the Finance team basically said the business case to ask IAG for new aircraft was too weak.

I would however, love to be wrong on this.

[TURIN]

The only routes I could see having a chance from MAN would be to cater for the 'Cheshire Set' ski routes in winter and the Málaga and Greece summer breaks. As has been said, all adequately covered by the low costs. Is there a market for those that, how shall I put this, would rather not sit with the Ryanair rif raf?
I really don't know. 😁

[The96er]

The only routes I could see having a chance from MAN would be to cater for the 'Cheshire Set' ski routes in winter and the Málaga and Greece summer breaks. As has been said, all adequately covered by the low costs. Is there a market for those that, how shall I put this, would rather not sit with the Ryanair rif raf?
I really don't know. 😁

They briefly tried FAO during Covid with very high Club class loads until new convenient Covid variants were made up and that put an end to that little experiment.

[laviation]

the fact BA EUROFLYER don't, suggests to me the Finance team basically said the business case to ask IAG for new aircraft was too weak.

I would however, love to be wrong on this.

The notion that Euroflyer can’t support new aircraft is incorrect. It’s simply cheaper to fly the NEO from Heathrow.

[22/04]

Nothing wrong with old airframes in the right place- just look at Jet2 flying 733s ex LBA - right now.

I have a friend who still flies BA over EasyJet or Ryan- she can't be the only one.

MAN-AMS,BCN,PRG,MAD, Nice, Madeira, TLV (when things calm down) plus Greece, Spain and Italy and bit of Turkey in summer and Ski and some Canaries winter. for starters. Need some tie in to OTAs and tour operators.

EDI (not GLA) is a bit more difficult but broadly similar.

I'm sure I will get shot down.

[vectisman]

Nothing wrong with old airframes in the right place- just look at Jet2 flying 733s ex LBA - right now.

I have a friend who still flies BA over EasyJet or Ryan- she can't be the only one.

MAN-AMS,BCN,PRG,MAD, Nice, Madeira, TLV (when things calm down) plus Greece, Spain and Italy and bit of Turkey in summer and Ski and some Canaries winter. for starters. Need some tie in to OTAs and tour operators.

EDI (not GLA) is a bit more difficult but broadly similar.

I'm sure I will get shot down.

I wouldn't worry about being 'shot down'. I happens to me all the time on here!
It's fine, as long as you don't say something or suggest something positive about Gatwick or a development at BA.:ugh:

[Doors to...]

There is still a huge gap at MAN as a result of the demise of TCX and MON, there are thousands of seat missing monthly that no other operator has fully made up for, seat only sales are pretty much confined to FR and EZY, to many destinations, J2 and TUI are not interested in seat only sales preferring to concentrate on the IT market.

LGW has in the IAG family BAEF, Vueling etc, BAEF or Vueling would bring much needed capacity to MAN.

[TURIN]

Vuelling and Iberia Express already operate through MAN. Only a few flights a week to BCN and MAD but it's there.

[Doors to...]

Correct but both operate to MAN, I'm talking about establishing a proper base at MAN, with a serious choice of routes.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

The notion that Euroflyer can’t support new aircraft is incorrect. It’s simply cheaper to fly the NEO from Heathrow.
No, that's not what I said. By comparison, easyJet have a LGW based fleet of NEOs. WizzUK, likewise. What I said was BA's finance team apparently cannot see an ROI on going to IAG to ask for new NEOs for Euroflyer as the business case isn't strong enough. Could be wrong, but with so many aircraft on order.....
BA are the oddballs in that they don't fly new builds in market, even Jet2 bought a new fleet of B73Hs and are taking A321Ns as we speak. If LGW did as well for BA as we'd all like to hope, even me, there would be a Club Suite refresh plan and new A32Ns / Maxes coming. Neither is happening. It's not a LGW problem, it's an inability of BA to make LGW work well enough for them on it's own merits, like everything else, LHR comes first as that seems to be where consistent money is made for BA, others do way better. Follow the money?
J2 and TUI are not interested in seat only sales preferring to concentrate on the IT market.
Jet2 do loads of seat only, it's why half the fleet is in grey and red, I flew on one last weekend on a seat only basis on a short break to Spain.

[vectisman]

No, that's not what I said. By comparison, easyJet have a LGW based fleet of NEOs. WizzUK, likewise. What I said was BA's finance team apparently cannot see an ROI on going to IAG to ask for new NEOs for Euroflyer as the business case isn't strong enough. Could be wrong, but with so many aircraft on order.....
BA are the oddballs in that they don't fly new builds in market, even Jet2 bought a new fleet of B73Hs and are taking A321Ns as we speak. If LGW did as well for BA as we'd all like to hope, even me, there would be a Club Suite refresh plan and new A32Ns / Maxes coming. Neither is happening. It's not a LGW problem, it's an inability of BA to make LGW work well enough for them on it's own merits, like everything else, LHR comes first as that seems to be where consistent money is made for BA, others do way better. Follow the money?

Jet2 do loads of seat only, it's why half the fleet is in grey and red, I flew on one last weekend on a seat only basis on a short break to Spain.

I share your frustration regarding BA at Gatwick. I totally agree that with more investment they could do well. However, as long as Heathrow dominates their planning there will be little change unfortunately. Their dominance at Heathrow also protects them somewhat.
Perhaps as Heathrow becomes even more constrained, and Gatwick does bring its Northern runway into routine operation, they will have to look at things again. At recent results meetings it has been said that they are watching developments at Gatwick very closely. They are also keen to have all their leased out slots at Gatwick returned to them by summer 2025.
The increasing number of full service airlines beginning services from Gatwick is also an interesting development and I am sure BA are keeping an eye too.

[SWBKCB]

The increasing number of full service airlines beginning services from Gatwick is also an interesting development and I am sure BA are keeping an eye too.

Which of the new entrants at LGW would BA be most concerned about?

[vectisman]

Which of the new entrants at LGW would BA be most concerned about?

Not 100% certain, but Singapore airlines could draw people away from LHR services as could Cathy Pacific if they return.
Air India seems to be doing well on their services too. You also have Saudi and Ethiopian (The later offering good connections throughout Africa).
The Chinese carriers offering 3 to 4 flights daily and of course Emirates and Qatar Airways.
There are also short haul entrants too, such as Lufthansa and Swissair. They also obviously don't want to leave the SH market to easyjet. as why bother with BA Euroflyer? They are taking back all the slots leased to easyjet since the pandemic by 2025.
Having said that they appear to have given easyjet an almost free run on domestics from Gatwick. BA were carrying 300000 to 400000 plus passengers annually to and from Gatwick and Edinburgh up to 2019.
I don't believe they have all disappeared, even allowing for less business travel.
Of course they remain determined to protect their Heathrow loads and yields. I wonder if BA Euroflyer are really that free to try additional cities from Gatwick without mainline worrying about impact on their services from LHR.
I also didn't say they were concerned, rather just keeping an eye. However, they did react when Norwegian expanded some of their transatlantic destinations from Gatwick a few years ago. They seem less worried about Norse though.
Just a few random thoughts.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

I wonder if BA Euroflyer are really that free to try additional cities from Gatwick without mainline worrying about impact on their services from LHR.
They also need to be mindful of their impact on LCY, the domestics from LGW were removed but point to point connectivity was kept out of LCY. Now even CFE are having to densify the Embraers to survive as most sensible companies offer hybrid working and so less need for business travel to a glass tower in East London. If they let BA Euroflyer off the leash and funded some growth, they'd impact LCY negatively as well as boosting LGW. I note Tom Stoddard is running both LCY and LGW operations, hence for BA it's LHR and "the rest". It's a tricky balance! It's the same dilemma Barbara Cassani faced at Go-Fly, , she could really have built a successful business FOR BA if they'd been less concerned about the impact on an existing short haul model that wasn't growing and subsequently almost collapsed.

Compare easyJet's ability to grow STN/LTN/LGW in parallel with the same thought process, BA can't do this as a critical mass of traffic MUST use LHR to feed long haul and so they must prioritise accordingly.

[laviation]

No, that's not what I said. By comparison, easyJet have a LGW based fleet of NEOs. WizzUK, likewise. What I said was BA's finance team apparently cannot see an ROI on going to IAG to ask for new NEOs for Euroflyer as the business case isn't strong enough. Could be wrong, but with so many aircraft on order.....
BA are the oddballs in that they don't fly new builds in market, even Jet2 bought a new fleet of B73Hs and are taking A321Ns as we speak. If LGW did as well for BA as we'd all like to hope, even me, there would be a Club Suite refresh plan and new A32Ns / Maxes coming. Neither is happening. It's not a LGW problem, it's an inability of BA to make LGW work well enough for them on it's own merits, like everything else, LHR comes first as that seems to be where consistent money is made for BA, others do way better. Follow the money?


Complete nonsense. You say BA Euroflyer is similar to Vueling / IB Express - no it is not.

Vueling is a standalone low cost carrier, they are allocated NEOs by IAG for fleet renewal and expansion.

Iberia Express runs routes out of Madrid to assist IB in competing with the low cost carriers. The business case notion falls flat again. They will be allocated NEOs with no less ‘preference’ than mainline.

It’s nothing more than BA using the NEOs at Heathrow to save money, don’t know where you have gotten this from?

[vectisman]

Complete nonsense. You say BA Euroflyer is similar to Vueling / IB Express - no it is not.

Vueling is a standalone low cost carrier, they are allocated NEOs by IAG for fleet renewal and expansion.

Iberia Express runs routes out of Madrid to assist IB in competing with the low cost carriers. The business case notion falls flat again. They will be allocated NEOs with no less ‘preference’ than mainline.

It’s nothing more than BA using the NEOs at Heathrow to save money, don’t know where you have gotten this from?

Ok, so why not allocate some new A320/A321 neos to Gatwick in parallel to LHR?

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Complete nonsense. You say BA Euroflyer is similar to Vueling / IB Express - no it is not.
Vueling is a standalone low cost carrier, they are allocated NEOs by IAG for fleet renewal and expansion.
Iberia Express runs routes out of Madrid to assist IB in competing with the low cost carriers. The business case notion falls flat again. They will be allocated NEOs with no less ‘preference’ than mainline.
It’s nothing more than BA using the NEOs at Heathrow to save money, don’t know where you have gotten this from?
Does BA Euroflyer have it's own AOC like Vueling and Iberia Express? Yes.
Is it branded the same way as it's parent? Yes, see Iberia Express?
Are they paid less? Yes, as per Iberia Express. I2 was set up by Iberia with the threat that every single new route and airframe would go to I2 and IB would be allowed to wither and die as I2 grew UNLESS staff agreed to major concessions. The public branding would be almost identical, that's why "Express" is in tiny letters.
The NEOs are a multi million pound CAPEX fleet renewal, they are placed where IAG agree they will derive maximum ROI.
IAG do not "allocate" aircraft as a benevolent daddy figure, each OpCp has to make a business case as to why they deserve them! It's competitive and a case must be made. Now it turns out that A320 CEOs are a pain point at LHR due to noise considerations meaning they're more expensive than they were, which is why almost everyone now flys the NEO to LHR, BA doesn't exactly have THAT option as they have a based fleet of CEOs.
Ok, so why not allocate some new A320/A321 neos to Gatwick in parallel to LHR?
Same reason there's no Club Suite coming to LGW, the investment goes where the ROI can be made up faster, LGW is relatively weaker than LHR for BA, hence LHR always gets first dibs on new equipment. If BA gets 50 new NEOS, all 50 would be expected to start their life at LHR. The only short haul narrow body I can remember that BA ever took delivery of at LGW was the very last Dan Air ordered B737-400 over three decades ago. Before that we're talking British Airtours B737-236s.
(I think that's right?)

[vectisman]

Skipness One Foxtrot, I asked that question 'Ok, so why not allocate some new A320/A321 neos to Gatwick in parallel to LHR?' to sort of question/challenge the suggestion that the only neos went to Heathrow as they were cheaper to operate from there. I know the actual reason, which, in my opinion, is as you describe.

[nguba]

Whilst BAEF may have a degree of autonomy, I just don't see a MAN base happening.

BA's main priority is long haul on the North Atlantic and other key markets. In terms of growth, all the signs from IAG are that BA will be focused on rebuilding long haul capacity in the coming years.

Short haul aircraft orders for IAG seem very conservative and with BA still leasing out slots at LGW & LHR, it's not as if it's exhausted capacity in London. The brand recognition in the South East is stronger - watching people tap in and out on the Tube it seems that half of London has a BA Amex card.

Also, the last thing BA should be doing now is anything that distracts it from operations in London - hopefully this summer will confirm it has turned a corner.

[Asturias56]

" Tube it seems that half of London has a BA Amex card."

Clearly you use different tube stations to the rest of us...............................

[BA318]

" Tube it seems that half of London has a BA Amex card."

Clearly you use different tube stations to the rest of us...............................

I’ve read articles stating that there are over 500,000 people with a BA Amex and they put through more than a billion pounds a month so it’s not unlikely a lot of tube passengers could have one.

In the US nearly 1% of the GDP goes through a Delta Amex so BA still have a bit of a way to go.

[Asturias56]

"In the US nearly 1% of the GDP goes through a Delta Amex so BA still have a bit of a way to go."

US GDP is circa $ 23 Trillion - so 1% is $232 Bn - AMEX only have an operating income of $10Bn for the whole company so that that sounds a little - inflated?

[GSM763]

"In the US nearly 1% of the GDP goes through a Delta Amex so BA still have a bit of a way to go."

US GDP is circa $ 23 Trillion - so 1% is $232 Bn - AMEX only have an operating income of $10Bn for the whole company so that that sounds a little - inflated?
It's a slightly inflated number but Amex can't book transaction volume as revenue, so it's not a million miles off https://viewfromthewing.com/is-delta-air-lines-exaggerating-the-success-of-its-american-express-credit-cards/#:~:text=American%20Express%20reports%20numbers%2C%20too,of% 20that%20is%20%24277%20billion.