British Airways-2

[vectisman]

It wouldn’t be beneficial for anybody, because then they’d lose many of the hundreds of new recruits joining this Autumn who signed up to do long haul only out of LGW, many of whom were ex Norwegian long haul and applied for the trips to Antigua, Costa Rica and Orlando, not night Alicante or early Dalaman.

If they’re struggling to retain crew, they need to pay them more, not change the working agreement of another fleet.
I am not disputing what you say at all. I was just saying that previously the mixed fleet idea worked at Gatwick for years. That is why I said it would be difficult with the new set up.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

The mixed flying didn't work well according to management who recently claimed it made short haul loss making and only a new even cheaper and poorer contract was essential to drag the loss making operation into profitability......bottom line is BA have decades of losses at short haul LGW and every time all they do is cut and cut and cut.

Financial reporting is an art form but highly political, you can choose to make some parts look bad by adding ridiculous overheads to them, something Waterworld has form for doing when it suits their cost cutting agenda. Who remembers the new fleet renewal that ended up being used end of lease Wizz Air A320s? Maybe the B737-MAX will change all of that.... 🤣

[Vokes55]

I am not disputing what you say at all. I was just saying that previously the mixed fleet idea worked at Gatwick for years. That is why I said it would be difficult with the new set up.

On paper it should be easier. The majority of crew are suited to either long haul or short haul based on their personal circumstances and would choose a fleet accordingly. If BA choose to pay their short haul cabin crew less than the competition in a post-Covid world of staff shortages across the industry, it's no wonder they're struggling to recruit and retain. BA think they can entice anyone with their brand name and staff travel, but the easyJet staff travel system is streets ahead for short haul travel, and the brand name's trashing was complete when they decided to throw the majority of their staff under the bus in one way or another during Covid.

Unfortunately, there's ample supply of Vueling, Iberia Express and Finnair aircraft and crew to plug the gap for the foreseeable future. No doubt they'll jump on the Smartlynx bandwagon if that supply ever runs dry. Anything but paying their own staff a fair wage.

[vectisman]

The mixed flying worked in terms of crew retention. The problem was the seasonality of the Gatwick short haul operation. Correct staffing during the summer season but more than required
during the winter season.
I doubt short haul made losses for decades. There were some good years and some bad years. As we know BA changed the story according to what they wanted to do at Gatwick.
I personally do not think the 737 max is intended for BA Euroflyer. I think we shall see A321 and A320 arrive from Heathrow as more A321 or A320neos are delivered to Heathrow. Always fine about being wrong.
From my contacts the AOC for Euroflyer should be fully in place later this year.
From November the airline will only be using its own metal from then on. To be honest setting up the 'new' base within 6 months was always going to be a tall order.
From the cabin crew of view I agree something needs to be done. The overall package needs to be more attractive.

[nguba]

Some good news as Unite has agreed a new pay deal for staff across a number of workgroups:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/15/thousands-of-british-airways-workers-to-get-pay-rise

[Trinity 09L]

Another set of cancellations ?
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-62637616

[ib26uk]

I had 2 of 3 flights cancelled by BA...

In other news, IS BA flying the A380 from London Heathrow to Vancouver in 2023 ? I`m planning a trip and would love to fly on the A380 again ( previously flew to YVR in 2018 on the A380 )

I`m thinking mid to late September - returning 2nd week of October 2023 to coincide with a cruise

Thanks

[Sotonsean]

I had 2 of 3 flights cancelled by BA...

In other news, IS BA flying the A380 from London Heathrow to Vancouver in 2023 ? I`m planning a trip and would love to fly on the A380 again ( previously flew to YVR in 2018 on the A380 )

I`m thinking mid to late September - returning 2nd week of October 2023 to coincide with a cruise

Thanks

When searching for flights on BA.com you can clearly see what aircraft is being used on any given flight. Just search for the date's that you are planning on flying and the flight information including the aircraft type is available to view.

But in saying that British Airways have been using the A380 from London Heathrow to Vancouver on flight BA84/85 since the 01 June 2022. British Airways are using the A380 from London Heathrow to Vancouver on a seasoned basis with the last flight departing London on the 25 September 2022. Thereafter the BA84/85 will be operated by Boeing 777.

Although your planned flights are not until 02 October 2023 I should imagine that the same schedule for the seasonal A380 flights to Vancouver will remain more or less the same as 2022.

​​​​​​But your best advice is to search under the flight information on BA.com.

​​​​​
​​​​

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

The CURRENT plan is to drop capacity on LHR-YVR down to a B777 and offer an additional service from LGW on a B777-200ER, so as of today, no A380 planned to YVR for next summer.

[Buster the Bear]

BA taking over the Aer Lingus operated Belfast City to Heathrow route. https://www.itv.com/news/utv/2022-10-14/aer-lingus-suspending-belfast-city-airport-to-london-heathrow-service

[queenvic]

Just read on another forum apparently will launch another route to the US in the next few weeks.

what about routes that were serve before the pandemic

like Kuala lumpar, Seoul, Osaka, Bangkok, Colombo, Seychelles, Durban, Lusaka,
Abu Dhabi, Oman, Bogotá now visa free travel for Colombian has been announced.

Or try new Jakarta, Manila, Cuba

Just think there’s so much potential for expansion…why always just America 🇺🇸

[stewyb]

Just read on another forum apparently will launch another route to the US in the next few weeks.

what about routes that were serve before the pandemic

like Kuala lumpar, Seoul, Osaka, Bangkok, Colombo, Seychelles, Durban, Lusaka,
Abu Dhabi, Oman, Bogotá now visa free travel for Colombian has been announced.

Or try new Jakarta, Manila, Cuba

Just think there’s so much potential for expansion…why always just America 🇺🇸

Simples, that’s where the money is!

[BA318]

Just read on another forum apparently will launch another route to the US in the next few weeks.

what about routes that were serve before the pandemic

like Kuala lumpar, Seoul, Osaka, Bangkok, Colombo, Seychelles, Durban, Lusaka,
Abu Dhabi, Oman, Bogotá now visa free travel for Colombian has been announced.

Or try new Jakarta, Manila, Cuba

Just think there’s so much potential for expansion…why always just America 🇺🇸

because America is where they make money. Going East they are up against lots of different carriers and they already have a partnership with Qatar so why waste money on low yielding routes to Manila or Jakarta when you can send them with Qatar.

As you mentioned they tried several of the routes before the pandemic so they obviously have some indication of numbers. Kuala Lumpur and Colombo are served by other Oneworld partners so no point splitting the limited demand and wasting slots and resources. Oman Air will also join Oneworld so that will be covered too.

As for Cuba, demand there is falling. VS announced it was relaunching flights and dropped them before starting. The US now makes anyone who has been to Cuba in the past 5 years ineligible for an ESTA which has apparently affected demand a lot.

[CabinCrewe]

Will be one of the old faithfuls often dredged up.. Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Minneapolis, Raleigh etc probably something with a strong AA / OW presence. I suspect some underwhelment.
But, better a new route (in US) than a cut service. And no, I do not expect it to be Honolulu (even from LGW).

[Hartington]

I used to see the BA internal newspaper. On several occasions there were letters from staff along the lines of

"why don't we fly to XXX? Their national carrier always seems to fly full".

To which the answer was along the lines of "we've analysed that route and we don't believe we can make money from it".

Essentially, BA don't start new routes without an expectation of profit. Amongst other things that means a good "premium" load. It's been interesting to see how they've used 787s to start new routes. For instance Austin went from a 787 to a 777 to a 747 and now A350. Actually, I say "premium" load. They also take into account freight. I don't know if it's still true but at one time it was said that the Houston route didn't need to carry any economy (World Travller) passengers. They made enogh money from the front and belly of the aircraft to make a profit.

[tubby linton]

It has always been so. Back in the late 1980s on the Tokyo route if F was full then the rest of the aircraft was profit.

[Sotonsean]

I had read a statement on the business travel website a few months ago. It was made by officials from the City of Indianapolis who stated that there were strong intentions that British Airways were looking at serving the City in 2023.

St Louis would be a good addition to British Airways North American portfolio of routes.

St Louis was previously served from London Gatwick by American Airlines and before that Trans World Airlines. (And long before that British Caledonian Airways).

​​​​​​

[Albert Hall]

And St Louis recently secured Lufthansa, which probably means that any funding support in the city's coffers have already been committed.

Indianapolis is the one that keeps rearing its head.

[CabinCrewe]

and an announcement from RDU pending this week…

[SealinkBF]

Kansas City is being mentioned. I'll say that's what the new destination will be.

[SWBKCB]

and an announcement from RDU pending this week…

Avelo have announced a base

[PAXboy]

Whilst in South Africa this November, I went out and back with BA. It is no surprise that their website needs updating. Not just Comair but Sun-Air ...:hmm:
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1228x457/ba_comair_0ea92978627878143924b00ee10cd3945ec0cefc.png
ing.

[davidjohnson6]

PAXboy - are you confusing the South African Sun Air which ceased flying about 20 years ago, with the Danish Sun Air which is still flying as a BA franchisee ? To make it more confusing, there are/were other Sun Air companies in Fiji, New Zealand, Sudan and the USA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Air

[BA318]

Whilst in South Africa this November, I went out and back with BA. It is no surprise that their website needs updating. Not just Comair but Sun-Air ...:hmm:
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1228x457/ba_comair_0ea92978627878143924b00ee10cd3945ec0cefc.png
ing.

Sun Air of Scandinavia are still flying. Billund to MAN and LCY and a charter service connecting Gothenburg with Cambridge and MAN all operate as BA.

[crewmeal]

Looks like BA have third party issues again, this time with flight planning.

BA delays (https://news.sky.com/story/british-airways-apologises-after-flights-leaving-us-delayed-due-to-technical-issue-12771724)

[WHBM]

Looks like BA have third party issues again, this time with flight planning.
Airlines are some of the worst for wanting to blame any significant issue on outsiders, as if they have no responsibility for their various suppliers. Who chose to go with the bottom bidder for this service ?

[The96er]

Looks like BA have third party issues again, this time with flight planning.

BA delays (https://news.sky.com/story/british-airways-apologises-after-flights-leaving-us-delayed-due-to-technical-issue-12771724)

I’m told that the issue is not so much the ‘third party supplier’, as other airlines who use the system have not experienced any issues, more the interface with the BA system. In other words, it appears to be a BA I.T issue and not a supplier issue.

[MANFAN]

I see BA's app and website is as stable as ever!! In other words crap!!

Booking a flight via ba.com, the website is absolutely dragging...so slow it takes me up to 30 mins to book the actual flight!
However, the flight appears not to be booked, when I receive a message along the lines of "there was a problem with your payment method, please call our customer service team or try again"
Upon trying again, I received a notification from my bank that a transaction had been made by BA, after checking my bookings it appeared the flight had actually been booked!
When trying to add the booking to the app, it cannot be retrieved...this isn't a new problem, I always have to check in and acquire my boarding passes from the website these days.

But I could have easily tried to book the same flight or a similar timed flight again and not known the original booking had worked, if I hadn't received the bank's transaction notification!

[davidjohnson6]

Assuming BA really does get the bmi remedy slots following Flybe's bankruptcy... what could or should the airline do with them over S23 ? Lease out, slot sit or do something substantial ?

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

I understand Vietnam have lost or are in danger of losing their existing LHR slots, so possibly an option to lease? BA are struggling tor crew as it is.

[Sotonsean]

I understand Vietnam have lost or are in danger of losing their existing LHR slots, so possibly an option to lease? BA are struggling tor crew as it is.

That might explain why Vietnam Airlines have applied for slots at STN.

Although I would have thought that LGW would have been the airport of choice considering that Vietnam Airlines previously served it.

Do you have any further information or details as to why Vietnam Airlines are losing or are in danger of losing their existing LHR slots.

[SWBKCB]

A woman who represented herself in court by using 80-year-old contract legislation has beaten British Airways (BA) in a row over flight vouchers. Jennie Barber had in January 2020 booked two return flights to Japan departing that May, but they were pulled due to Covid restrictions. BA offered travel vouchers but Ms Barber wanted her money back instead. When BA refused, she hit the law books despite only studying the subject to A-level, and won a full refund. "If you're... an ordinary person who is not a legal professional, going up against someone like British Airways is scary and it is intimidating," she said. She nevertheless beat the airline giant in court by challenging its stance via the Law Reform (Frustrated Contracts) Act 1943. (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Geo6/6-7/40/contents)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-64788448

[WHBM]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-64788448In a statement, a spokesperson for BA said: "We were the first UK airline to offer customers the unprecedented flexibility to change their plans during the pandemic by providing them with vouchers for future travel."
That's a complete load of rubbish. That's not 'unprecedented flexibility'. Jet2, who we were booked with, wrote round saying they could not do the trips and offered complete refunds to everyone. You didn't even have to apply, they just turned up within a couple of weeks.

They also didn't make any staff redundant, but just put them on the government furlough scheme. To fund all this, Philip Meeson, founder and chairman of Jet2, sold his ownership of the associated distribution cargo company, which had been the business origins. Just all seemed honourable; can you see the BA/IAG principal shareholders doing that? Can you guess who I have channelled our family holiday trips to ever since they started again?

[787Heaven]

BA and Vueling both denied me a full refund for flights I booked in 2019 for April 2020. When I challenged it they went silent. In 2022 they got in touch saying I can have my vouchers refunded as a cash sum I had to apply for this.

BA refused to refund me saying there was a problem with my voucher and then we’re Impossible to get hold of. Vueling refunded me £4 out of £82 and then had the nerve to say I received a full refund and refused to help me further.

it’s theft.

[HOVIS]

That's a complete load of rubbish. That's not 'unprecedented flexibility'. Jet2, who we were booked with, wrote round saying they could not do the trips and offered complete refunds to everyone. You didn't even have to apply, they just turned up within a couple of weeks.

They also didn't make any staff redundant, but just put them on the government furlough scheme. To fund all this, Philip Meeson, founder and chairman of Jet2, sold his ownership of the associated distribution cargo company, which had been the business origins. Just all seemed honourable; can you see the BA/IAG principal shareholders doing that? Can you guess who I have channelled our family holiday trips to ever since they started again?
It's called gaslighting. BA are masters at it. I've only flown Jet2 since the pandemic. Great company.

[ClearedToNowhere]

They also didn't make any staff redundant.

Yes they did.

[Trinity 09L]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64810681

Value of vouchers examined.

[787Heaven]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64810681

Value of vouchers examined.

the last paragraph in this article is a blatant lie.

[sportzbar]

Yes they did.
Very true. Was planned as 102 pilots and 380 cabin crew but how many actually were made redundant (and indeed how many were re-employed in the following 18 months), I don't have figures for...

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

The initial plan thrown at BALPA by BA "management" was that all the pilots on the B747 fleet were to go, regardless of seniority.
BALPA had kittens and BA got a pay cut out off all their pilots, on the principle of never letting a good crisis go to waste.

[HOVIS]

From memory didn't BA announce that all staff were going to be made redundant and reemployed on new (inferior) contracts? Redundancy mitigation was then negotiated throughout the company with all departments facing temporary cuts in pay.
I believe the Engineers are still trying recover 5% that was promised to be returned and hasn't.

[SWBKCB]

That's a complete load of rubbish. That's not 'unprecedented flexibility'. Jet2, who we were booked with, wrote round saying they could not do the trips and offered complete refunds to everyone. You didn't even have to apply, they just turned up within a couple of weeks.

They also didn't make any staff redundant, but just put them on the government furlough scheme. To fund all this, Philip Meeson, founder and chairman of Jet2, sold his ownership of the associated distribution cargo company, which had been the business origins. Just all seemed honourable; can you see the BA/IAG principal shareholders doing that? Can you guess who I have channelled our family holiday trips to ever since they started again?

The "no redundancies" comment was in relation to Jet2

[V_2]

The "no redundancies" comment was in relation to Jet2

yep, and so were the replies.
https://www.balpa.org/Media-Centre/Press-Releases/More-pilot-jobs-to-go-Jet2-announces-102-redunda

[SWBKCB]

yep, and so were the replies.
https://www.balpa.org/Media-Centre/Press-Releases/More-pilot-jobs-to-go-Jet2-announces-102-redunda

Posts 540 and 541 specifically refer to BA?

[MANFAN]

I received an e mail yesterday from BA confirming my flight from MAN>LHR on 2nd April had been cancelled, no reason given as to why.
Is this due to the security striking action? Interestingly, my connecting flight to TLS has not been cancelled. When I opted to choose another flight on the same day, there were no options, only from Monday, which is no good as I need to be in work on the Monday, hence the need to fly on Sunday.

So a refund for me and a new booking with another airline at double the cost! Why is flying on Sunday so expensive?! Cheapest I can find for Sunday is £261, yet on Monday it's around £120!

[lfc84]

I received an e mail yesterday from BA confirming my flight from MAN>LHR on 2nd April had been cancelled, no reason given as to why.
Is this due to the security striking action? Interestingly, my connecting flight to TLS has not been cancelled. When I opted to choose another flight on the same day, there were no options, only from Monday, which is no good as I need to be in work on the Monday, hence the need to fly on Sunday.

So a refund for me and a new booking with another airline at double the cost! Why is flying on Sunday so expensive?! Cheapest I can find for Sunday is £261, yet on Monday it's around £120!
I think you need to familiarise yourself with EU261/2004

[MANFAN]

I think you need to familiarise yourself with EU261/2004

Thank you. I wasn't aware I was entitled to compensation because of the less than 14 days notice.
I already requested a refund from BA...am I still entitled to compensation as well? I'll be sure to have a good read of the regulations now though!

[sergy2k]

Any ideas whether this service is going to continue to operate this Summer? I'm guessing with loads improving and poor weather in Italy, they've struggled to get the A320Neo into FLR and back out with the majority of services in May diverting to Pisa. Seems an odd choice for BA to continue to sell direct tickets for the next few days when in all likelihood you'll be coached to Florence from Pisa

[BA318]

BA having another of its regular IT meltdowns today. Lots of flights cancelled again.

[BEagle]

BA having another of its regular IT meltdowns today. Lots of flights cancelled again.

Same again today Friday 26th May - just before a Bank Holiday weekend.

According to the BBC: There has been a second day of chaos for thousands of travellers at London Heathrow after British Airways (BA) cancelled at least 42 more flights due to the impact of an IT failure.

What an abysmal airline!

[WHBM]

A quick glance shows the cancellations are wholly on the short-haul side. What sort of IT failure only impacts short-haul but not long-haul from the same carrier at the same terminal ?

[davidjohnson6]

A quick glance shows the cancellations are wholly on the short-haul side. What sort of IT failure only impacts short-haul but not long-haul from the same carrier at the same terminal ?
Perhaps the kind of failure that means your employees have to carry out tasks manually instead of relying on computer automation, but have the time and capacity to do this for only some but not all flights. Which flights do you think an airline would prioritise... perhaps the profitable long-haul ones ?

[Charley B]

Only LHR …?seems strange nothing much of theirs at all delayed at Gatwick..or yesterday ..very odd …dreadful for people going away for Bank Holiday or half term and no luggage loaded or flight cancelled ..

[SOPS]

I’m guessing, this is what happens when you chase Ryanair down to the bottom. BA .. get a grip. You were the “ Worlds Favourite Airline “. Charge a bit more, provide decent meals in all classes on all flights, provide decent service and seating leg room in all classes, get a IT system that works… go back to be a Premium Airline FFS.

[wiggy]

A quick glance shows the cancellations are wholly on the short-haul side. What sort of IT failure only impacts short-haul but not long-haul from the same carrier at the same terminal ?


If you have to cancel a percentage of flights it also makes more sense to knock out some of those that the airline serves several times a day in the hope you can at least get some disrupted pax to their destination on a chosen day, or even, in the case especially of domestics/destinations close in in Europe giving them the chance of traveling by alternative modes of travel or other shorthaul carriers.

[tictack67]

If you have to cancel a percentage of flights it also makes more sense to knock out some of those that the airline serves several times a day in the hope you can at least get some disrupted pax to their destination on a chosen day, or even, in the case especially of domestics/destinations close in in Europe giving them the chance of traveling by alternative modes of travel or other shorthaul carriers.

BA need to consider their contingency.

London to Inverness 8hrs by Train
London to Aberdeen 7.5 hrs by train
London to Nice 8.5 he's (incl one hour connection at Paris)
London to Lyon 5.5hrs (including 1h38 connection)

Domestics are an easy cancellation, but do not offer easy alternative for passengers.

I appreciate they don't have 8 flights a day to LYS,CDG or NCE but time for a re-think

[BA318]

I’m guessing, this is what happens when you chase Ryanair down to the bottom. BA .. get a grip. You were the “ Worlds Favourite Airline “. Charge a bit more, provide decent meals in all classes on all flights, provide decent service and seating leg room in all classes, get a IT system that works… go back to be a Premium Airline FFS.

It’s not about charging a bit more. BA already make decent profits and did before covid too. It’s how they chose to use that money. Right now nobody is going to pay a bit more to fly BA when they can’t even be trusted to get you and your luggage to the destination.

[Asturias56]

BA have become an airline to avoid if there is any other choice I'm afraid - however.......................

"Domestics are an easy cancellation, but do not offer easy alternative for passengers." but its much easier for the airline to recover problems on short haul than long haul - you have more aircraft available for switching, more flexibility with crews etc.

[WHBM]

"Domestics are an easy cancellation, but do not offer easy alternative for passengers." but its much easier for the airline to recover problems on short haul than long haul - you have more aircraft available for switching, more flexibility with crews etc.
Ah yes, airline ease first, customer convenience last.

But the real issue is that BA seem to have made no effort to improve IT systems reliability. Presumably they are likewise subject to ever-decreasing cost budgets.

Meanwhile, press reports of pax waiting for bags at destination, only to eventually find out none were loaded at Heathrow. SURELY the crew have seen this on the load sheet, bags weight = 0, and can advise the pax as they taxy in.

[crewmeal]

Meanwhile, press reports of pax waiting for bags at destination, only to eventually find out none were loaded at Heathrow. SURELY the crew have seen this on the load sheet, bags weight = 0, and can advise the pax as they taxy in.

Because the crews would have a riot on their hands. The poor crew would face all sorts of abuse as the pax disembarked.

Why anyone would risk booking BA flights at holiday time is beyond me. We had all this at Christmas, half term, Easter and now Whisun. I guess BA's IT is outsourced to some distant shore where no one will be answerable to the problems.

[tictack67]

BA have become an airline to avoid if there is any other choice I'm afraid - however.......................

"Domestics are an easy cancellation, but do not offer easy alternative for passengers." but its much easier for the airline to recover problems on short haul than long haul - you have more aircraft available for switching, more flexibility with crews etc..QUOTE

My point was they seem to cancel UK domestics where traveling by rail to CDG,AMS, BRU, LYS, NCE is much shorter by rail than some UK domestics

[tictack67]

BA have become an airline to avoid if there is any other choice I'm afraid - however.......................

"Domestics are an easy cancellation, but do not offer easy alternative for passengers." but its much easier for the airline to recover problems on short haul than long haul - you have more aircraft available for switching, more flexibility with crews etc.

Actually not exactly true all the times, given the frequency of some short haul routes and passenger numbers quickly building up.

Some of these high value J and F fares will connect to short haul so may be disgruntled and untrusting of BA

My point was they cancel domestics where as CDG, AMS, BRU, LYS, NCE can be reached by tail much quicker than ABZ or INV

[True Blue]

The good and the bad of BA in one day.

Was due to fly BHD - LHR - IST in business on Tuesday morning. Early departure from home and when on the train to meet my daughter, who was taking us the last little bit to BHD, I turned on my phone. Up comes a message, flight from BHD cancelled. We were re-booked from 9.45 to 1545, with a new connection out of Lhr to IST at 18.20. Of course, the 15.45 was delayed by just over one hour, we parked on stand at Lhr at 18.00. Missed connection. Went to the flight connection desk in T5 to see what was happening and when we gave our name, the lady behind the counter handed us two C class tickets for a Turkish Airlines flight at 22.30. Ok we had a long day, as we landed in IST at about 3.45am on Wednesday, with a connection at 6.20, but apart from being tired, we didn't suffer much harm. What did impress us was the fact that we had been re-booked without even having to ask. Why can't they be that good all the time?

[VickersVicount]

The good and the bad of BA in one day.

Was due to fly BHD - LHR - IST in business on Tuesday morning. Early departure from home and when on the train to meet my daughter, who was taking us the last little bit to BHD, I turned on my phone. Up comes a message, flight from BHD cancelled. We were re-booked from 9.45 to 1545, with a new connection out of Lhr to IST at 18.20. Of course, the 15.45 was delayed by just over one hour, we parked on stand at Lhr at 18.00. Missed connection. Went to the flight connection desk in T5 to see what was happening and when we gave our name, the lady behind the counter handed us two C class tickets for a Turkish Airlines flight at 22.30. Ok we had a long day, as we landed in IST at about 3.45am on Wednesday, with a connection at 6.20, but apart from being tired, we didn't suffer much harm. What did impress us was the fact that we had been re-booked without even having to ask. Why can't they be that good all the time?

Rebooking in that fashion only came about due to last minute panic and decision at high level to try and avoid some of the repeat inevitable fall out. When, as you say, it should always have been like that. So predictable and relatively easily improved/implemented

[WHBM]

Rebooking in that fashion only came about due to last minute panic and decision at high level to try and avoid some of the repeat inevitable fall out. When, as you say, it should always have been like that. So predictable and relatively easily improved/implemented
I bet Alex Cruz would never have done it.

[PAXboy]

I expect that you have seen this from the USA, what chance here?
Almost $1m Fine over Covid refunds (https://www.independent.co.uk/business/british-airways-fined-covid-refunds-b2349966.html)

[WHBM]

I expect that you have seen this from the USA, what chance here?
Almost $1m Fine over Covid refunds (https://www.independent.co.uk/business/british-airways-fined-covid-refunds-b2349966.html)The airline said: "We're very sorry that at the height of the unprecedented pandemic - when we were unfortunately forced to cancel thousands of flights and close some call centres due to government restrictions - our customers experienced slightly longer wait times to reach customer service teams.

"During this period, we acted lawfully at all times and offered customers the flexibility of rebooking travel on different dates, or claiming a refund if their flights were cancelled.
'Slightly longer' - what an absolute joke. These people were unable to get through to BA for MONTHS. Their fine should be doubled for saying that.

BA said the only route to refunds was to contact this non-existent call centre. Nothing through the website or anything else.

We were booked at the same time with Jet2. We got an email saying that flights were cancelled and they were arranging full refunds to everyone, and apologised for it looking like taking up to a month. Three weeks on, and our money just turned up back from Jet2 in our account. We didn't have to do anything.

[crewmeal]

QF seem to be working hard and progressing with Project Sunrise ready for when the A350-10's arrive. Why Can't BA who have these aircraft look at a similar project? They could be a leader in this field.

[Asturias56]

BA have gradually been cutting the destinations they serve in Australia - it's not a core market for them.

Once SQ started it chopped big chunks out of the potential market. The rise of the ME airlines (flying from UK regional airports) has hammered the flow eastbound via LHR for BA.

There is a small market for direct flights to Australia - and Qantas will fill it as they have the onward connections (and the Loyalty Programme) at the east end .

TBH there aren't many really profitable routes out of London that require such long non-stop flights.

[ezyBoh]

Regarding refunds, flight changes. I've had no issue with BA, flights to The US & Europe either changed with no fees and refunds processed in a few days during the pandemic. Yes, it took a while to get through but that can only be expected. People seem to forget that airport, airline staff go sick and office based staff, such as the call centre staff, were under the same working restrictions as others. Other airlines l had to correspond with such as a well known Middle Eastern carrier weren't so easy to deal with despite having a dedicated number etc and being a top tier 'guest'.

[laviation]

I think that BA will always serve Sydney in some shape or form - other cities will be served direct by Qantas towards the end of the decade

[SealinkBF]

'Slightly longer' - what an absolute joke. These people were unable to get through to BA for MONTHS. Their fine should be doubled for saying that.

BA said the only route to refunds was to contact this non-existent call centre. Nothing through the website or anything else.

We were booked at the same time with Jet2. We got an email saying that flights were cancelled and they were arranging full refunds to everyone, and apologised for it looking like taking up to a month. Three weeks on, and our money just turned up back from Jet2 in our account. We didn't have to do anything.

Jet2 put most other airlines to shame. No wonder they are doing so well.

[SOPS]

I think that BA will always serve Sydney in some shape or form - other cities will be served direct by Qantas towards the end of the decade

I live in Western Australia. We used to have ( I am talking 30 years ago now), a daily BA service to London via Singapore. In my younger years , I flew on it many times in Club, upstairs on the 747. ( although if I remember correctly, some 74,s had Y class up stairs). Anyway, used to be my favourite way to get to Europe, when I was working there and “ commuting” from WA.

[goldeneye]

I think that BA will always serve Sydney in some shape or form - other cities will be served direct by Qantas towards the end of the decade

I think you are right. BA had the chance to drop it after the pandemic but as soon as they were able to, they reinstated the flight.

[Mr Mac]

Goldeneye
BA I believe is the only European airline operating to Sydney, and probably Australia now. The ME 3 and Singapore Airline have demolished BA on the routes to Australia and indeed NZ.

Cheers
Mr Mac

[CabinCrewe]

thought it was now a profitable predictable operation for them now with no need to consider any alteration?

[Asturias56]

Goldeneye
BA I believe is the only European airline operating to Sydney, and probably Australia now. The ME 3 and Singapore Airline have demolished BA on the routes to Australia and indeed NZ.

Cheers
Mr Mac


Even QANTAS are picky - Adelaide for example is almost always via Sydney or Melbourne these days - much easier to get SQ (or Emirates pre Covid) via SIN

[Rutan16]

Even QANTAS are picky - Adelaide for example is almost always via Sydney or Melbourne these days - much easier to get SQ (or Emirates pre Covid) via SIN

Not strictly they will send you via Singapore and on to London on the big bus west, to Perth to connect to the 789 or via Dubai on their partner and from their to almost all major airports in the EU and UK Qantas on Emirates is a massive revenue capacity and network driver for the kangaroo!!!!

[nguba]

I don't think BA will follow Qantas with Ultra Long Haul flights given it would require a small sub fleet of aircraft and BA & IAG's inherent cautiousness with capital expenditure.

BA could have pre-empted Qantas launching Perth non-stop with the 787 if they wanted to.

It is a safe assumption that BA will stick with Sydney - even though dropping it would free up long haul aircraft it desperately needs.

[Asturias56]

Given the prices I was quoted last year they must do well out of it - you'd have to be crazy to fly BA (or QANTAS) on that route

[PAXboy]

The SYD is only a 789 these days, very much a token. When we went a few years ago, had SQ all the way in PE on 380 and was brilliant.

[CabinCrewe]

only a 789

Think thats a deliberate ploy rather than an after-thought. Very fuel efficient, includes a F cabin (which a lot now don’t) and reasonable cargo. Is seasonally even a 777-300ER. And was now profitable.

[Mr Mac]

I have just been talking to a rather unhappy BA Gold Card member who turned up to fly LHR to Palma and flight was cancelled,when checking in. They offered a flight the following day to Minorca and that was the best they could do.

She subsequently re booked with EasyJet and flew Gatwick to Palma the following day.

Unbeknown to her she was sat next to a BA pilot, who after she had told her tail of woe to, produced his phone and showed the screen for BA operation which he said he should not do, but he said everything coloured Blue, BA had no crew for and these flights would be cancelled. The lady said there were pages of them !!

I think BA need to come clean, as she said looking into July and August she for sees plenty of unhappy passengers and stressed employees.

Cheers
Mr Mac

[ETOPS]

everything coloured Blue, BA had no crew

Just had this very conversation with a serving pilot. Frequent requests from the company to cover trips but already working to the max so unable.

Wonder how the pay negotiations are doing :rolleyes:​​​​​​​

[Mr Mac]

Etops
They obviously have a big issue and you would think that a management team would realise this and have some contingency plan in place rather than trying to muddle through ie cancel now not when people are checking in.

I have not used BA for along time,partly due to this type of management, though Mrs Mac informs me we have lots of BA air miles through AMEX though I have queried why we would use them, given their issues even for free.

Cheers
Mr Mac

[simoncorbett]

It’s not just BA with this problem, lots of airlines haven’t enough crew to operate schedules incl TUI Lufthansa etc

[sam dilly]

I had a school group of 68 booked and paid to BA travelling 02 July LHR to FCO
Yesterday BA cancelled their flight, no reason given, no alternative offered.
fortunately it is within 14 days, so we have rebooked our group on alternative flights, and will now try and obtain all the costs and EU261 from a really very disappointing airline.
BA are just a disappointment !

[Mr Mac]

SC
I have had an issue earlier this year with Lufthansa, but they changed my flight time by 12 hrs and rerouted me, but at least they got me there, not just cancelled and or offered to be flown to a different island !!

They are doing this in a planned way as confirmed by others above so they know they are going to do it already why disappoint people literally as they board as in the ladies case or just before departure as in the case above.

It’s just awful management, and shoving the problem down to the ground staff and CC when they have had little control of this is dodging the issue.

It’s just wrong on so many levels and BA has been heading this way for a number of years but the buffers look to be in sight so time for some drastic action. You can’t fly planes without A/C or crew so time to make your schedule fit your resources and not bury your head in the sand.
Cheers
Mr Mac

[davidjohnson6]

I think it's common corporate practice in many industries for senior management to push problems around under resourcing to junior staff. I don't think British Airways or the airline industry is in any way unique at its tendency to do this.

Last summer BA were under resourced. It was only when the CAA wrote a stroppy public letter that BA (or Easyjet) started to ensure what they were selling matched operational resource capabilities.

[Mr Mac]

DJ6
If the lists come to pass which seems evident they will then never mind last summer they appear to be in the same position and not learned anything from last year’s experience.

You cannot run a full flying schedule without the required aircraft and crew and support staff to go with it. If you have only enough resources to run 2/3rd of your schedule for example, then then that is what you have to do , not just ignore it and hope it doesn’t come to pass. An old saying is failure to plan is to plan to fail and this saga smacks of it.

Cheers
Mr Mac

[nguba]

It’s notable that Sean Doyle, after being put forward for media interviews to sell a positive vision for the airline, seems to have largely disappeared from view.

Maybe there is work going on in the background with the new Ops Director but the public will be unforgiving of another summer of disruption.

[WHBM]

I do recall from long ago that the CAA was absolutely hot on scheduled carriers, at least UK ones, operating what they had timetabled and sold. It was always an ops concern that they had to do so, as they could be pulled up for "not having the resources to run their scheduled operation". There were cancellations for weather etc, but the CAA were no slouches at spotting just what was a real weather issue, and what was just ops convenience. In case of shortage, carriers would need to charter in to cover services, even those carrying just a handful. I seem to recall an account of one day an F27-sized service having been covered by a 737 hired in from Europe. In particular there was scrutiny of cancellations just done for low passenger loads - you had to have zero bookings both ways to get away with that one.

Somehow this was all just lost, and now it seems carriers can do what they like without any comeback.

[sergy2k]

Looking at flight prices to Naples from London towards the end of July. easyJet coming up around £600 for 3 people, Ryanair around £700, British Airways? £3000! Now I get that you can't always compare flight prices in isolation and I understand that it's a peak travelling period due to school holidays but who is paying these prices for an Economy Basic fare out of LHR?? Are they priced to stop people from booking with them to ease passenger numbers? Be interested to hear people's opinions

[Asturias56]

" who is paying these prices for an Economy Basic fare out of LHR?"

people to whom £ 3k isn't a lot of money - they're probably renting a villa that costs that per day

[sergy2k]

" who is paying these prices for an Economy Basic fare out of LHR?"

people to whom £ 3k isn't a lot of money - they're probably renting a villa that costs that per day

I guess that’s my point, surely they’d at least be flying Economy Plus or Business (which was around £5k)rather than Economy Basic

[laviation]

The people with that sort of money will have fancy BA Amex cards anyway..

[davidjohnson6]

Customers demand that an economy basic fare be offered in addition to an economy plus fare. I don't believe BA ever guaranteed that the economy basic fare would be cheap in absolute terms - the only requirement is that that the economy basic fare would cost less than the economy plus fare.
On 24-July, flying LHR-NAP one way mid-morning, your choice (per person) is
Economy basic £761
Economy plus £794
Business - £1,108.
BA have done their bit in offering you a choice of different fare families to suit your needs. It seems unfair to blame an airline for providing more choice instead of doing what other airlines sometimes do - namely marking the economy basic fare as "sold out" and allowing sales of only economy plus and business fares.
If BA set the price on the same Heathrow-Naples flight as Economy Basic - £261, Economy Plus - £794, then many passengers would just send their suitcase by separate courier and pay only for Economy Basic - and BA as a company seeking to make a profit for shareholders would lose potential fare revenue

"Freedom of choice" means you pay just for what you need/want and thus potentially "cheaper". "Freedom of choice" does not necessarily mean "cheap"
If instead you seek "cheap" and don't want to pay £761 for a one-way LHR-Naples, you may prefer to fly out of LHR mid-afternoon on the same date at a less popular time for £266 in Economy Basic and save yourself £496 per person. Or if cost of a basic fare is the only thing that matters to you, fly Stansted-Naples with Ryanair on the same day in the afternoon for £132.

On 24-July, there are 10 flights at different times of day from 4 London-area airports to Naples, offered by 5 different, reputable and independent airlines - BA, Easyjet, Jet2, Ryanair and TUI, with different levels of cusomer service. As a formally trained economist, it looks to me like a competitive market that is functioning well, albeit with a high level of customer demand for travel on 24-July.

[Local Variation]

Travelled on Euroflyer yesterday. Grim is an understatement and will not be repeated.

Passengers near me and including me all positively compared RYR as a much better customer experience. Who’d have thought it.

[HOVIS]

Just had this very conversation with a serving pilot. Frequent requests from the company to cover trips but already working to the max so unable.

Wonder how the pay negotiations are doing :rolleyes:
​​​​​​​Announcement due tomorrow.

[Asturias56]

I guess that’s my point, surely they’d at least be flying Economy Plus or Business (which was around £5k)rather than Economy Basic


Oddly I know some well off folk who really object to shelling out for PE etc on short haul - anything under 4 hours they're happy to suffer in the back if the upgrade has to come out of their pocket .

[ATNotts]

Oddly I know some well off folk who really object to shelling out for PE etc on short haul - anything under 4 hours they're happy to suffer in the back if the upgrade has to come out of their pocket .
Very often those with money to splurge are the least inclined to fritter it, that is probably why many of them, having accumulated wealth remain wealthy.

[ETOPS]

Announcement due tomorrow.

Just been shown the GMB deal - all the usual stuff about "so much backdated and so much later" but the clause about no other staff groups to negotiate better deals stood out :eek:

[nguba]

Interesting that BA CityFlyer could start operating at London Gatwick.

Did this used to be disallowed under industrial agreements with the pilots?

https://twitter.com/londonairtravel/status/1674056701224407044?s=46&t=OIvCYLUy9nzZ0zwTbRWkkw

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

It wasn't allowed under a SCOPE clause but I think COVID allowed them to bin that agreement with a lot of other protections.

[Apron Artist]

It appears there is yet another IT issue...LGW certainly affected at the moment.

[crewmeal]

BA to expand the call centre in India. That'll be fun. Sky use an Indian call centre and I could hardly understand what they were saying due to the poor standard of English.

Indian call centre (https://simpleflying.com/british-airways-india-call-center/)

[ATNotts]

BA to expand the call centre in India. That'll be fun. Sky use an Indian call centre and I could hardly understand what they were saying due to the poor standard of English.

Indian call centre (https://simpleflying.com/british-airways-india-call-center/)
Well thats going to work well unless of course BA are firstly going to select call handlers based upon, among other factors, the clarity of their speech (Indians tend to speak good English, it can be the accent that some people, especially the elderly find difficult) and then train them adequately.

Regarding Sky, theirs I have found really good on the handful of occasions I have had to talk to them on technical matters. Not so good when it comes to discussing subscriptions.

[Asturias56]

"(Indians tend to speak good English, it can be the accent that some people, especially the elderly find difficult) "

For me its the SPEED of sub-continent English that is the problem - and of course the stress is different. I'm not asking for "Loooooooo-eeeeeeee-zzzzzzzz-iiiiiii-aaaaaaa-nnnnnnnnaaaaa" but a little slower would help. The clearest help I ever had on an international call was from Estonia and, very oddly Afghanistan (tho I guess if you're country s invaded every 30 years by assorted Anglo-Saxons......)

[TCAS FAN]

Not impressed with BA trying to wriggle out of legitimate compensation for late arrival. Son and his wife recently flew LHR/ARN/LHR. Return sector flight late into ARN, no way it was getting back to LHR before curfew, rerouted to LGW.

Three hours plus after scheduled ETA before getting back to LHR, claimed for compensation. “Exceptional circumstances” claimed by BA due to ATC rerouting. After a few email exchanges, and evidence from FR24, they eventually coughed up.

Would have expected this from FR, not from the former “ world’s favourite airline”.

[DaveReidUK]

Not impressed with BA trying to wriggle out of legitimate compensation for late arrival. Son and his wife recently flew LHR/ARL/LHR. Return sector flight late into ARL, no way it was getting back to LHR before curfew, rerouted to LGW.

ARL is the code for an airport in Burkina Faso. Might have been easier just to name where your son had been.

[rog747]

Not impressed with BA trying to wriggle out of legitimate compensation for late arrival. Son and his wife recently flew LHR/ARL/LHR. Return sector flight late into ARL, no way it was getting back to LHR before curfew, rerouted to LGW.

Three hours plus after scheduled ETA before getting back to LHR, claimed for compensation. “Exceptional circumstances” claimed by BA due to ATC rerouting. After a few email exchanges, and evidence from FR24, they eventually coughed up.

Would have expected this from FR, not from the former “ world’s favourite airline”.

Ha! see my Post on TUI Airways - same old....Best R.

PS I know you meant Arlanda LOL Dave is being a bear today lol

[DaveReidUK]

I suspected it was (though it might have been ATL), but you know what they say about assuming ... :O

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Seems passenger handling at London City is coming in house as BA CitiFlyer move from Menzies to Gatwick Ground Services....
They probably need to change that name though!

[VickersVicount]

They probably need to change that name though!
I can’t see why when eg DNATA Dubai /SwissPort operates from almost every major airport…
CityFlyer

[WHBM]

Seems passenger handling at London City is coming in house as BA CitiFlyer move from Menzies to Gatwick Ground Services....
They probably need to change that name though!
Years ago didn't they use KGS, which was KLM Ground Services, but that didn't stop use of the name ! At least this will be closer to home.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

They did use KGS who became COBALT post the Air France merger (aka Frogs in Clogs) back in the late BACON and earlier BA CityFlyer days. I only mention it as it's BA going self handling but moving heaven and earth to ensure it's not branded as BA!

[nguba]

Interesting that GGS is doing handling for BACF at the same time as BAEF - given BACF may also add its first scheduled route at Gatwick and BACF & BAEF both share the same CEO.

[PAXboy]

I agree nguba but, given my experience of British management over the last 40 years... I would expect nothing less.

[nguba]

It's behind a paywall, but Sean Doyle confirms in The Sunday Times that a new website & app launching later this year. The A380 refurbishment was also confirmed, but with no timescale.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Interesting that GGS is doing handling for BACF at the same time as BAEF - given BACF may also add its first scheduled route at Gatwick and BACF & BAEF both share the same CEO.
Great point, I forgot that BA EuroFlyer had a part time CEO which IMHO explains a lot about the mess they're in.

[nguba]

IAG has converted 6 Boeing 787-10 options into firm orders for British Airways.

These will be delivered between 2025 & 2026 to restore pre-pandemic long haul capacity.

[Dannyboy39]

Oddly I know some well off folk who really object to shelling out for PE etc on short haul - anything under 4 hours they're happy to suffer in the back if the upgrade has to come out of their pocket .
With almost all BA short and medium haul now operated by A320-series/Neo aircraft, I’ve actually found the exit rows as being de facto PE and probably ends up being better than the business class product aside from not getting a meal. Because of the MCD, you probably get less legroom in business for the most part.

Useful on some of the longer 4-5 hour runs… double the price just for an extra airline meal!

Historically they used to operate the odd 747, 757, 767 on these routes. I guess maybe on the rare occasion you’d get the 787 now?

[Rutan16]

With almost all BA short and medium haul now operated by A320-series/Neo aircraft, I’ve actually found the exit rows as being de facto PE and probably ends up being better than the business class product aside from not getting a meal. Because of the MCD, you probably get less legroom in business for the most part.

Useful on some of the longer 4-5 hour runs… double the price just for an extra airline meal!

Historically they used to operate the odd 747, 757, 767 on these routes. I guess maybe on the rare occasion you’d get the 787 now?

Tel-Aviv is currently operated with a 789 and 350-1000 combination
Amman/Cairo/Larnaca/Paphos with 321NEO
Paphos from Gatwick with a Euroflyer 320 (sometimes a leased in one)

Whilst Sharm will be operated with a 77E over the winter

Fact is BA mid haul network has declined considerably in the years since BMED and their presence in Sub Saharan Africa is pathetic by comparison to Star and Team competitors.

[vectisman]

I think you will find that Sharm el Sheikh will be operated by BA Euroflyer A320/A321not a BA 777. They made that mistake last time.

[vectisman]

Some may think the mid haul offering in terms of routes is ‘pathetic’ but it is profitable. BMED and BMA both failed owing to losses. Likewise most European airlines operate similar aircraft on these routes.
Others go on about the great inflight experience of Turkish airlines but they are chasing the one stop connections to Asia and East in competition with Emirates and others. BA and other European airlines are mainly point to point business and leisure.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

BA and other European airlines are mainly point to point business and leisure.
That's true for easyJet but BA is a long haul network carrier with huge feed over a dominant hub. Anyone connecting off a long haul Club Suite flying onwards on "Club Europe" for 6 hours in a NEO is getting hosed. The same goes for Air France, Lufthansa etc. We've reverted to the bad old days of a "that'll do" cartel.

[WHBM]

BA have been completely squelched by a range of carriers to Africa - not just the ME3, it's Turkish and Ethiopian as well. The nationalities of the passengers in the Ethiopian 737Max accident shows how things have gone - hardly any Ethiopians on board; fairly full flight, just 9 of the pax were Ethiopians.

For points previously served by BA just a few times a week, the prospect of daily operation, albeit by connections, is inviting. Fares are generally significantly less, and it's a pretty price-sensitive market, not just for personal but also business travel - many welfare agencies, charities, etc.

[Rutan16]

BA have been completely squelched by a range of carriers to Africa - not just the ME3, it's Turkish and Ethiopian as well. The nationalities of the passengers in the Ethiopian 737Max accident shows how things have gone - hardly any Ethiopians on board; fairly full flight, just 9 of the pax were Ethiopians.

For points previously served by BA just a few times a week, the prospect of daily operation, albeit by connections, is inviting. Fares are generally significantly less, and it's a pretty price-sensitive market, not just for personal but also business travel - many welfare agencies, charities, etc.

Sort of true however wasn’t much of the West African cull predicated on the Ebola outbreaks rather than financial consideration and not restored since ?
Isn’t the region supposed to be served via the RAM (not that they seem to work particularly closely yet) and Iberia codeshares these days.

Not expecting BA to serve N’Djamena, however Abidjan, Freetown , Monrovia and Dakar should still perform well enough .

[Rutan16]

That's true for easyJet but BA is a long haul network carrier with huge feed over a dominant hub. Anyone connecting off a long haul Club Suite flying onwards on "Club Europe" for 6 hours in a NEO is getting hosed. The same goes for Air France, Lufthansa etc. We've reverted to the bad old days of a "that'll do" cartel.

Primarily the reason for restoration of widebody and business product to Tel Aviv. Rather less so Amman and Cairo.

Air France are using a A359 to Tel Aviv and Cairo and maintain Beirut with either a 789 or 359 depending on day of operation

Only Lufthansa continues to use the 321 Neo into Tel Aviv albeit multiple daily for both hubs

[Rutan16]

Some may think the mid haul offering in terms of routes is ‘pathetic’ but it is profitable. BMED and BMA both failed owing to losses. Likewise most European airlines operate similar aircraft on these routes.
Others go on about the great inflight experience of Turkish airlines but they are chasing the one stop connections to Asia and East in competition with Emirates and others. BA and other European airlines are mainly point to point business and leisure.

It is pathetic through .

BMI failed not because of mid haul but rather carrying far too many passengers for others at a penny in the pound and sure were also victims of the flexible fares expansion and poor planning particularly with their inherited Brazilian fleet and use three 330s they could get right .

And saying it’s Profitable is unknown without direct knowledge of planning . We can I suppose and make an assumption Tel Aviv is a profit centre based on range of onward connections westwards but can’t categorically state it to be so .

Cairo and Amman may be contributing to revenue less so profit .

[Mayfield62]

Club Europe is in need of a serious revamp. The product BA offers at the moment is disgraceful, I am amazed they have got away with it for so long.

They should introduce a dedicated 2+ 2 Business Cabin on Short/Medium haul, similar to American's First Cabin on the A321NEO.

[CabinCrewe]

Club Europe is in need of a serious revamp. The product BA offers at the moment is disgraceful, I am amazed they have got away with it for so long.

They should introduce a dedicated 2+ 2 Business Cabin on Short/Medium haul, similar to American's First Cabin on the A321NEO.
You need to tell the 15+ rows of CE passengers who fall for it eveyday… a huge number of which are not (contrary to urban myth) full of Avios redemptions. BA will be in no hurry to change that moneyspinner.

[Rutan16]

Club Europe is in need of a serious revamp. The product BA offers at the moment is disgraceful, I am amazed they have got away with it for so long.

They should introduce a dedicated 2+ 2 Business Cabin on Short/Medium haul, similar to American's First Cabin on the A321NEO.

Not happening in Europe where flexibly is the key , as stated blocked seats allow BA and every other ( caveat Air Serbia) to market and deploy same frame on a domestic thirty minute rotation a summer hop to Santorini or that flight to Cairo each with very differing profiles

US market profiles are vastly different via their mega hubs and contracts that demand a so called domestic First class product of certain transcontinental routes.

[Rutan16]

You need to tell the 15+ rows of CE passengers who fall for it eveyday… a huge number of which are not (contrary to urban myth) full of Avios redemptions. BA will be in no hurry to change that moneyspinner.

Who suggests Europe upfront is full of redemptions . It’s full of feed to the long haul and certain key business centres from London ( both can attain high levels of revenue)

[BA318]

Club Europe is in need of a serious revamp. The product BA offers at the moment is disgraceful, I am amazed they have got away with it for so long.

They should introduce a dedicated 2+ 2 Business Cabin on Short/Medium haul, similar to American's First Cabin on the A321NEO.

It’s comparable or better than almost every other European short haul business class. And while BA’s seat may be smaller on a lot of routes the offering is far better than many of the US carriers who don’t allow lounge access and serve a snack basket or less on shorter routes. You win some you lose some.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

It’s comparable or better than almost every other European short haul business class. And while BA’s seat may be smaller on a lot of routes the offering is far better than many of the US carriers who don’t allow lounge access and serve a snack basket or less on shorter routes. You win some you lose some.
They're all c***. All of 'em The Business Class hard product across (most) legacy European A320 fleets (and KLM's B737s) is the bare minimum they can get away with and they literally do not compete on product because they're all inferior to the wider global market. It's a cosy wee cartel where no one upsets the applecart of a high revenue low cost business offering by actually offering a higher cost quality product. What saves them all is the power of their loyalty programmes. BA would be nowhere without the status chasers of the Executive Club. And there's a massive misnomer in 2023 let's be honest.

[Rutan16]

They're all c***. All of 'em The Business Class hard product across (most) legacy European A320 fleets (and KLM's B737s) is the bare minimum they can get away with and they literally do not compete on product because they're all inferior to the wider global market. It's a cosy wee cartel where no one upsets the applecart of a high revenue low cost business offering by actually offering a higher cost quality product. What saves them all is the power of their loyalty programmes. BA would be nowhere without the status chasers of the Executive Club. And there's a massive misnomer in 2023 let's be honest.

Spot on Skip those loyalty (bribe) programmes are specifically designed to lock in and gain upfront CASH, maintain that at a high(er) margin and actually deliver relatively cheap “awards” down the line . They also include an elemental risk assessment that many many many hundreds of thousand perhaps millions of points are unlikely to ever be redeemed.

Further add hidden expiry criteria and constant reviews of “offers” and redemption rates and it’s simply a license to print money for these companies at your expense (They got your money upfront at x2 x5 and x10 base price and its in their bank making them and the partners money but not yours)

That said people “value” the concept and at a physiological level potential for future “Free Stuff yes please “ sells !

For the average person that travels to a beech for 14 days or even that millennial that weekends in Ibiza the number of points gained on a typical credit card in a year might just pay for a basket of Christmas goodies, however its alluring to think you could someday get that free trip and bath tube seat , on tap champers and a Maldives hut on a coral reef someday.

Scam is a loaded word through they aren’t far from it !

[davidjohnson6]

is there anything different between Avios and any other loyalty maketing scheme ?
Large chunks of marketing theory are all about getting customers to spend a lot more money for a product which costs only slightly more to produce.

[Rutan16]

is there anything different between Avios and any other loyalty maketing scheme ?
Large chunks of marketing theory are all about getting customers to spend a lot more money for a product which costs only slightly more to produce.

Correct whatever the bribe to concept is exactly that again generating CASH now for promises later .

[davidjohnson6]

New route Heathrow-Belgrade
https://www.exyuaviation.com/2023/08/british-airways-to-launch-belgrade.html

[DaveReidUK]

LHR-Sofia-Belgrade seems a long time ago now ...

[roblondon70]

LHR-Sofia-Belgrade seems a long time ago now ...

Wasn't it LHR - ZAG - BEG and LHR - OTP -SOF in the day?

[DaveReidUK]

Wasn't it LHR - ZAG - BEG and LHR - OTP -SOF in the day?

Well it was a long time ago. :O

I've just checked a W78 timetable and it was indeed LHR-ZAG-BEG-ZAG-LHR. The other was a triangular LHR-SOF-BUH-LHR.

[VickersVicount]

Not sure we need to worry about double-drops and triangle routes nowadays. Though suspect some of these might need it for loads.

BA used to do quite a few (more) even to USA. Perhaps more routes could be generated or sustained, even outweighing inconvenience.

[bar none]

There was always a standing joke along the likes of `What fu..ks stewardesses and has four legs. Answer. The Zagreb-Belgrade.

[DaveReidUK]

Not sure we need to worry about double-drops and triangle routes nowadays. Though suspect some of these might need it for loads.

BA used to do quite a few (more) even to USA. Perhaps more routes could be generated or sustained, even outweighing inconvenience.

BA still do double-drops.

[VickersVicount]

BA still do double-drops.
hence ‘more’ … (and not in USA).

[Mayfield62]

British Airways starting:-

Heathrow to Cologne & Bonn, Riga and Turin;
London City to Milan Linate;
Gatwick to Fuerteventura, Innsbruck and Oporto

[ETOPS]

I see Unite has settled for 13% over 18 months and £1000 one off payment..

Pointedly the BBC news item notes "but pilots and management are excluded from the deal"

Wonder how they will feel with the usual 2%?

[VickersVicount]

I see Unite has settled for 13% over 18 months and £1000 one off payment..

Pointedly the BBC news item notes "but pilots and management are excluded from the deal"

Wonder how they will feel with the usual 2%?
Don’t think they were ever involved in these lower wage bracket negotiations and will have their own union negotiations ongoing noting the relative ‘buyers market’…

[ETOPS]

will have their own union negotiations

As the man in the wheelchair would say - "Yer I Know" ;)
Still think 2% won't go down very well....

[queenvic]

Don’t think they were ever involved in these lower wage bracket negotiations and will have their own union negotiations ongoing noting the relative ‘buyers market’…

I’m cabin crew but ex bmi. We’ve screwed once again. large pay restoration for legacy but despite having us having the biggest cut in covid… we get ignored!! Bullying and intimidation from both company and union

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Is being reported elsewhere that the CAA are insisting mandatory ID will need to be presented on BA domestics from 1-Sep. Is the CAA really doing this? I have noted that other airlines who used to enforce passports as a revenue control measure have lessened the need and some carriers who once insisted no longer challenge for ID on domestics. Something amiss?

[toledoashley]

An observation from flying with easyJet a couple of times recently on domestics - they only ask for ID when you have checked in a bag.

[NWSRG]

Some years back, Willie Walsh mooted BA taking some additional A380s if available. A lot of water has gone under the bridge since then, but six Thai A380s (with Trents) are now available. Would it make sense for BA to move for them?

[BA318]

Some years back, Willie Walsh mooted BA taking some additional A380s if available. A lot of water has gone under the bridge since then, but six Thai A380s (with Trents) are now available. Would it make sense for BA to move for them?

It was reported before that the problem was the cost of refitting the aircraft to BA’s standard is very expensive which made it unviable unless the purchase price was very good.

Haven’t these Thai birds been parked outside at BKK for a while and in pretty rough looking state. I can’t see BA going for them.

[NWSRG]

Yep, seems they may need C checks as well...but I guess the opportunities are limited, so maybe if the price is right...

[Mayfield62]

Yes, the CAA has insisted mandatory ID for BA domestic flights from 1st September. Not sure if other airlines are affected.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Yes, the CAA has insisted mandatory ID for BA domestic flights from 1st September. Not sure if other airlines are affected.
The CAA also seems to have denied any such thing and said BA simply changed their policy. Is there is an official source for this?

[MAC 40612]

I see Unite has settled for 13% over 18 months and £1000 one off payment..

Pointedly the BBC news item notes "but pilots and management are excluded from the deal"

Wonder how they will feel with the usual 2%?

While I don't know what the deal regarding pilots, [i]none of the management grades in BA took a pay-cut during the pandemic, while all non-management grades took at least a 5% pay cut [some departments more than that as grades disappeared and the new grades were on a lower pay-scale] had their T+Cs changed and lost some leave entitlement, not all of which had been re-instated post pandemic, so while the headline figure may look good, it's wasn't the whole picture.

[CabinCrewe]

The CAA also seems to have denied any such thing and said BA simply changed their policy. Is there is an official source for this?
Everyone loves a bit of FlyerTalk drama… think most are now used to it on other domestic carriers, infact lots are surprised you don’t need it. Will be a storm in a BA tea cup

[Asturias56]

I've posted elsewhere about Air France putting Concorde trips in a prize draw for passengers - I was on a 727 where it was the prize drawn after takeoff.

[PAXboy]

I agree CabinCrewe every single outlet (traditional or modern) has to make it seem like NEWS. Very often there is a provocative question to which the answer is most obviously 'No'. They also make a statement as if it is fact and end with (in smaller font) '... according to experts/ XYZ Party news release'

[Apron Artist]

Check-in has gone wrong at Gatwick. Situation bronze.

[OntimeexceptACARS]

Well after last week's chaos, I have been looking at BA cancellations, every single day there are multiple canx flights.
I am currently in Rome, travelling back Friday, and saw that the day before we travelled here, the same fight was cancelled, and today's afternoon flight is also cancelled.

What is wrong? I have heard
- crew shortages
- tech aircraft
- long term equipment shortages (jeez can you just order a larger batch of replacement aircraft!!)
- LHR congestion
- aircraft late out of maintenance
- ground crew shortages
and so on.

Can anyone fill me in on the reasons for these daily cancellations?

BA Cancellations yesterday :
BA1472 GLA
BA458 MAD
BA306 CDG
BA714 ZRH
BA816 CPH
BA566 MXP
BA442 AMS

Long hauls :
BA067 PHL
BA203 BOS

[BA318]

Well after last week's chaos, I have been looking at BA cancellations, every single day there are multiple canx flights.
I am currently in Rome, travelling back Friday, and saw that the day before we travelled here, the same fight was cancelled, and today's afternoon flight is also cancelled.

What is wrong? I have heard
- crew shortages
- tech aircraft
- long term equipment shortages (jeez can you just order a larger batch of replacement aircraft!!)
- LHR congestion
- aircraft late out of maintenance
- ground crew shortages
and so on.

Can anyone fill me in on the reasons for these daily cancellations?

BA Cancellations yesterday :
BA1472 GLA
BA458 MAD
BA306 CDG
BA714 ZRH
BA816 CPH
BA566 MXP
BA442 AMS

Long hauls :
BA067 PHL
BA203 BOS

It's a combination of all those things. Regarding just ordering more planes you realise they don't just magically appear the next day? BA has planes on order already. It takes time. 7 short haul cancellations out of x hundred is not bad. They are all routes with multiple daily flights. It's a similar story at other major hubs. Take FRA yesterday with Lufthansa.

Cancelled:
LH154 Leipzig
LH46 Hannover
LH126 Stuttgart
LH1026 Paris CDG
LH140 Nuremburg
LH72 Dusseldorf
LH4 Hamburg
LH566 Port harcourt
LH1010 Brussels
LH14 Hamburg

and that's just until lunch time.

[PAXboy]

Most carriers caught out by Covid drop and resurgance.
No one wants to pay more money for their tickets.
Wet lease costs real money. Accountants don't like that.

Many chickens are now roosting.

[WHBM]

I've written on the London City thread about our experiences flying LCY to Palma, which has one or two frequencies per day, over the end-August weekend. Ended up getting there three days late and losing a significant slice of our holiday.

Sunday : Cancelled due to Mediterranean weather.
Monday : Cancelled due to ATC issue.
Tuesday : No more seats available.
Wednesday : Morning flight full, finally got on the afternoon one.

Here if interested : London City-4 - Page 6 - PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/638151-london-city-4-a-6.html#post11494933)

Now the real issue here is the complete absence of any effective management of issues like this. Given just a rebooking phone number, which constantly played a recording that they were too busy to answer, try later. Eventually got through and asked, on being told nothing on the Tuesday, what about Iberia from Heathrow through Madrid. "Oh, that sort of thing not available to us". For goodness sake, it's the same owners.

Meanwhile the 'cheap and cheerful' holiday flights had all bent over backwards to handle it, with extra flights (BA apparently arranged none, it was just what seats were left on the schedule), subchartered-in aircraft, arrangements of hotac and meals, regular client contact, etc. Worst was a 12-hour delay. I discovered this by actually asking the Jet2 rep in the resort how they had handled it.

I do get the feeling that the BA method of operation now is there's a rotation out of the UK and back, if there's a delay that will upset the next aircraft or crewing rotation, they just cancel, aircraft and crew just wait for the next leg, all passengers back to reservations to make what they can of it,

[davidjohnson6]

WHBM - in future you need to pick a better airline for flights to Europe. Try Ryanair or Wizzair instead of British Airways

[HOVIS]

Most carriers caught out by Covid drop and resurgance.
No one wants to pay more money for their tickets.
Wet lease costs real money. Accountants don't like that.

Many chickens are now roosting.
Indeed, after the way BA treated it's staff during covid, closing the pension scheme and generally p1551ng everyone off its no wonder the service levels have dropped.

[Rutan16]

WHBM - in future you need to pick a better airline for flights to Europe. Try Ryanair or Wizzair instead of British Airways

All UK departures are now low priority by almost ALL scheduled carriers EZY (and co), WZZ (and co), RUK (and co), BAW (and co). It’s too easy to procrastinate on EU261 pay outs these days, (and politically there are those with the levers of power want it totally gone !)

WZZ have still to settle COVID claims and continue to cancel UK departures as does EZY en mass , Ryanair will also cancel UK ops .

BAW/CFE/EFW are simply following the trend of ever declining service standards accepted within the UK market place .

BTW - Lufthansa group have similar issues with Eurowings in particular and The AF branch of AFKL have to deal with numerous general strikes (manifesting) on a rolling basis ( they may have fallen from UK media but they ain’t gone away !)

Jet2 are a holiday company with an airline attached they can barely afford to p**s off their captive clients especially with bills to pay for that accommodation and meals AND pay delay compensation at the same time and further pay out for their bond to ATOL AND CO.
The traditional inclusive tour still has some advantages and protections afforded to the customer .

[AirportPlanner1]

Would be interested to know if the person in the call centre was aware Iberia is within IAG, or whether they just didn’t bother looking. When you book on BA’s site they list IB flights and connections via MAD/BCN as options, AFAIK the MAD flights certainly from LHR are all code-shares.

[Rutan16]

Would be interested to know if the person in the call centre was aware Iberia is within IAG, or whether they just didn’t bother looking. When you book on BA’s site they list IB flights and connections via MAD/BCN as options, AFAIK the MAD flights certainly from LHR are all code-shares.

We don’t know the ticketing bundle restrictions or the fact the departure was booked from City as opposed to Heathrow or Gatwick

Yes Heathrow -Madrid is not only codeshare, alliance partner and indeed same parent company but is operated frame neutral as well . That said with Iberia back in T3 perhaps the computer doesn’t immediately identify those -idk

[PAXboy]

BA started and stopped CitiFlyer and others (not looking them up) and I guess that having them operating under a slightly different name gives them get outs for not sharing seats.

[OntimeexceptACARS]

It's a combination of all those things. Regarding just ordering more planes you realise they don't just magically appear the next day? BA has planes on order already. It takes time. 7 short haul cancellations out of x hundred is not bad. They are all routes with multiple daily flights. It's a similar story at other major hubs. Take FRA yesterday with Lufthansa.

Cancelled:
LH154 Leipzig
LH46 Hannover
LH126 Stuttgart
LH1026 Paris CDG
LH140 Nuremburg
LH72 Dusseldorf
LH4 Hamburg
LH566 Port harcourt
LH1010 Brussels
LH14 Hamburg

and that's just until lunch time.
BA318 I get that other airlines suffer too, and yes I know the order time for a batch of A32x aircraft is currently around 5-7 years. But that's what fleet planners do. The point I am making is - should the travelling public accept it? Problem is that there are not many alternatives to BA from the UK unless its FR/EZY or the dreaded WZZ.

On fleet planning, there are about 20 new aicraft allocated to BA, most replacing A319/A320ceo aircraft which are on average 20 years old and have about 5-8 years of life left in them. Taking the Lufthansa comparison, they have about 45-50 narrow body aircraft on order, albeit replacing older aircraft than BA have.

They need to do better, whether they want to f@nny about with Gatwick operations or not.

[DaveReidUK]

On fleet planning, there are about 20 new aircraft allocated to BA, most replacing A319/A320ceo aircraft which are on average 20 years old and have about 5-8 years of life left in them. Taking the Lufthansa comparison, they have about 45-50 narrow body aircraft on order, albeit replacing older aircraft than BA have.

BA has 49 Neos in service/on order.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

That said with Iberia back in T3 perhaps the computer doesn’t immediately identify those -idk
They moved back to T5.
Again.

[Downwind_Left]

BA started and stopped CitiFlyer and others (not looking them up) and I guess that having them operating under a slightly different name gives them get outs for not sharing seats.

BA/BA Cityflyer/BA Euroflyer are all treated as one and the same as far as disruption or rebooking goes. If your flight on any of the carriers is disrupted, you will be automatically offered options on any of the 3 AOCs into or out of any London airport. The different AOCs have different staff T&Cs. They don’t have different websites, phone numbers, customer policies or rebooking arrangements. Commercially they are one.

[WHBM]

Would be interested to know if the person in the call centre was aware Iberia is within IAG
Given that I had to explain several times (to the BA call centre ...) that Heathrow and City are different airports, and not just "London", with me spotting from the stated flight numbers which one was being read out, a distinct possibility.

[SWBKCB]

Call centre staff will be going off the information presented to them - there is usually little scope to go "off script".

[GAXLN]

Call centre staff will be going off the information presented to them - there is usually little scope to go "off script".

The trouble is BA Senior Management appear not to care they are breaking the law. Although no EU261 payment will be due if the cause is truly weather directly affecting the flight concerned, you are entitled to rerouting on any available flight under the regulations. They would be far better booking IB than LH, AF, KL etc as it would keep the revenue within the family so to speak. I just don’t get it.

It is all about the short term and not long term. BA are getting very little of my business now until they change their approach and focus on their customers. They appear to be into a tailspin toward the bottom in respect of customer service. They would be better off delivering improved service IMHO and have customers confident that when there is disruption they will go above and beyond. That way they should be able to command a
premium but they have pi55ed off so
many it now has to come down to
price competition - a very slippery slope - again IMHO.

[WHBM]

Although no EU261 payment will be due if the cause is truly weather directly affecting the flight concerned, you are entitled to rerouting on any available flight under the regulations.
Interestingly, in this situation, despite the news articles about poor weather in Majorca, Palma airport carried on with arrivals right through all this, a steady stream just at the 1700-1800 time when the BA flight would have been due. I put this to a BA staffer. "No, bad weather". I pointed to the arrivals. "Ah, outside the capabilities no the E190 then". No, there's an Air France Hop E190 arriving OK right at that time.

So seems there is a commercial decision - "we might have a missed approach", or "we might have to divert" is made, especially looking at the impact on overtight scheduling of aircraft and crew. But that is a commercial/operational/cost convenience decision. It is not 'impossible because of the weather'.

Same went for issues at Heathrow the next day. BA cancelled far more of their transatlantic service than American or United did.

[Flightrider]

It can also depend on the forecast. Forecast weather conditions incompatible with the operation of the flight - which could also be en route TS activity or the like - are sufficient basis to cancel without compensation liability, even if those conditions do not actually materialise.

[WHBM]

It can also depend on the forecast. Forecast weather conditions incompatible with the operation of the flight - which could also be en route TS activity or the like - are sufficient basis to cancel without compensation liability, even if those conditions do not actually materialise.
Can you point to where in the legislation it actually says that.

[davidjohnson6]

Even without a legal test case... what do you think a court would say if there are (genuinely) 50 knot crosswinds forecast at a destination airport along with low cloud and heavy rain... maybe with fog for good measure ? Would requiring an airline pay compensation for delaying a flight pass the test of being reasonable ?

[WHBM]

Even without a legal test case... what do you think a court would say if there are (genuinely) 50 knot crosswinds forecast at a destination airport along with low cloud and heavy rain... maybe with fog for good measure ? Would requiring an airline pay compensation for delaying a flight pass the test of being reasonable ?
As here, there's a common misunderstanding of the purpose behind EU261 compensation. It is not meant to be some usurous penalty for adverse circumstances which happen from time to time (and can be budgeted for as part of the cost of doing business for a carrier), but more a means of encouraging that carriers actually apply themselves to OVERCOMING such issues.

So in the event of both 50 knot crosswinds AND fog (an unusual Met combination, you have to admit, and one that would start an informed passenger to think that hyperbole is creeping in), it encourages the carrier to get all passengers on their way as promptly as possible, and not just to tell them "that flight was too difficult for us, go away, we'll get on with everyone else now". Which was certainly starting to happen and led to the measures in the first place. Or similarly, saying on a Sunday lunchtime departure on a mainstream European route "might be disruptive to us, come back next Wednesday afternoon". Which seems to be where I came in ...

[wallp]

Is there any talk of possible fleet replacement for BA’s ageing 777’s especially the ones at Gatwick?

[CabinCrewe]

Is there any talk of possible fleet replacement for BA’s ageing 777’s especially the ones at Gatwick?
Suspect as refitted, they’ll squeeze at least another 5 years out of them at LGW, and then replace with any ‘newer’ ones from LHR. Perhaps then the 787’s will be old enough to suit LGW. Can’t see any A350’s etc going anywhere near LGW in near term. In 5 years time Im not even sure BA, in present guise, will even be at LGW. The latest order for 787-10s will start to cover replacements at LHR and would imagine some more A350’s for there too.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Isn't the issue that the A35K is unsuitable for the infrastructure at some of the Beach Fleet airports? It's too long I think?

[Flightrider]

The issue you'll have will be wheelbase turning radius at some of the airports in the Caribbean - the 777 manages it, but the longer Airbus variants are a struggle - VS were only ever able to put the 340-600 into Barbados. St Lucia has a special briefing on how to line up the aircraft on the runway centreline for departure, It doesn't mention positioning yourself as far side to the right of the runway as you dare, throwing the nosewheel tiller hard to the left, closing your eyes, counting to ten and hoping that when you open them again, you're still on the runway - but it might as well.

787s of some variety probably have to be the 777 replacement at Gatwick in the longer term, although having just spent a small fortune on refitting the 777s into the high-density config, the 777s are likely to be around for another few years yet. Not that I'll be a passenger on them - one trip down the back of a refitted 777 was enough to convince me that I didn't want to do that again.

[vectisman]

Flightrider all of BAs 777-200s are now 10 abreast in economy not just the Gatwick ones. Some of the 777-300 are too.

[DaveReidUK]

Are you sure about the -300ERs ?

[MARKEYD]

Yes all the 777 300 will or are in the process of becoming 10 abreast
The new club suites go way past doors 3 now so the economy cabin is situated between doors 4 and 5 with WTP just in front of doors 4

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Are you sure about the -300ERs ?
It's being done at BAMC alongside the Club Suite refits, Economy goes 10 abreast.

[Flightrider]

Flightrider all of BAs 777-200s are now 10 abreast in economy not just the Gatwick ones. Some of the 777-300 are too.

Thanks for the heads up. Will avoid the lot.

If they had one or two less rows and therefore gave a bit on seat pitch, it wouldn’t be so bad - but tight seat width and poor pitch is an awful combination. They’d still have gotten their seat count up hugely on the 777s with that, but just seem to have gotten greedy and tried to have it all.

[daz211]

Have any A380’s had the Club Suite fitted yet and if not does anyone know when.

[BA318]

Have any A380’s had the Club Suite fitted yet and if not does anyone know when.

None yet. Original plan was for it to start this year but now rumoured to be planned for 2025 onwards.

[Sotonsean]

According to Reuters, IAG the owner of British Airways are in negotiations with both Airbus and Boeing regarding a possible order for new long haul aircraft.

British Airways are looking to place an order for 20 or more long haul aircraft to replace their older Boeing 777s.

With the much delayed Boeing 777X that British Airways has on order from Boeing and the long delivery time for the Boeing 787 I have a feeling that this potential order will go in the favour of Airbus.

As part of the potential purchase, I wonder if IAG will order the Airbus A330-900 on behalf of British Airways as a possible replacement aircraft?

[laviation]

More 787-10s all the way. Be good to get some -9s too.

[CabinCrewe]

I wonder if IAG will order the Airbus A330-900 on behalf of British Airways as a possible replacement aircraft?
Don’t see A330-900’s featuring in any future order for IAG. Infact doubt any airline will order anymore of them unless they give them away. Will be A350 /787 or even more 777x

[WHBM]

Don’t see A330-900’s featuring in any future order for IAG. In fact doubt any airline will order anymore of them unless they give them away. Will be A350 /787 or even more 777xHowever, what is happening in the market is a shortage of supply, seemingly for the long term, where the A330-900, a perfectly reasonable and efficient aircraft, is becoming the only widebody actually available for delivery in the medium term. Boeing is pretty much sold out on the 787 long term, getting on towards the end of the decade now. Much of this is their own doing, cutting the 787 production lines back from two to one must be seen now as a mistake (I'll leave aside whether they closed the wrong one), along with inefficient handling of the 777X development losing years of production.

The A350 is likewise booked up for years ahead. What else is there ? Detailed analysis of the A321XLR, supposedly the wonderplane for the mid-long haul, shows it is not as easy to break even with such a narrowbody on these routes as first suggested.

[Sotonsean]

However, what is happening in the market is a shortage of supply, seemingly for the long term, where the A330-900, a perfectly reasonable and efficient aircraft, is becoming the only widebody actually available for delivery in the medium term. Boeing is pretty much sold out on the 787 long term, getting on towards the end of the decade now. Much of this is their own doing, cutting the 787 production lines back from two to one must be seen now as a mistake (I'll leave aside whether they closed the wrong one), along with inefficient handling of the 777X development losing years of production.

The A350 is likewise booked up for years ahead. What else is there ? Detailed analysis of the A321XLR, supposedly the wonderplane for the mid-long haul, shows it is not as easy to break even with such a narrowbody on these routes as first suggested.

Exactly my thinking, your post is absolutely spot on. That's why I mentioned the A330-900 as being a "possible" candidate.

[Asturias56]

You also have the problems with P&W geared engines - literally hundreds have to be taken off the wing and returned for inspection over the next couple of years - and this at a time when there is a general shortage of parts and engineers to get new builds out of the door never mind fix the current fleet. And there is no hope of having enough to just swap them out for a spare - there aren't enough.

There was a big article in a last months Flight - no-one seems to be able to give any decent info on timescales but it's clear there will be an ongoing shortage of aircraft -for several years

[UnderASouthernSky]

Exactly my thinking, your post is absolutely spot on. That's why I mentioned the A330-900 as being a "possible" candidate.

How compatible is the A330-900 with existing BA Airbus fleet? Crews, Engineers, Spares, Ops etc. Or would it be starting a subfleet from scratch? Which would be very expensive... not to mention potential lack of worldwide support on a niche type.

[SKOJB]

How compatible is the A330-900 with existing BA Airbus fleet? Crews, Engineers, Spares, Ops etc. Or would it be starting a subfleet from scratch? Which would be very expensive... not to mention potential lack of worldwide support on a niche type.

Not sure if many existing BA Engineers will have A330 type rating and could mean additional training!

[DaveReidUK]

Not sure if many existing BA Engineers will have A330 type rating and could mean additional training!

Yes, it's amazing that any airline ever buys a new type.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

How compatible is the A330-900 with existing BA Airbus fleet? Crews, Engineers, Spares, Ops etc. Or would it be starting a subfleet from scratch? Which would be very expensive... not to mention potential lack of worldwide support on a niche type.
Fair point, but easyJet never regretted the move from brand new B737-700s to A319s, if the aircraft is the right one for the business then you need to spend the money. The A339 is more likely at Aer Lingus to be fair.

[HOVIS]

Not sure if many existing BA Engineers will have A330 type rating and could mean additional training!
Up until recently BA had a thriving 3rd party engineering department handling almost every type going. Quite a few had/have A330. The conversion course from 320 to 330 is only a few weeks. Practical OJT may be fun though, Madrid or Dublin anyone? 😁 🍻🍺

[AircraftOperations]

Up until recently BA had a thriving 3rd party engineering department handling almost every type going. Quite a few had/have A330. The conversion course from 320 to 330 is only a few weeks. Practical OJT may be fun though, Madrid or Dublin anyone? 😁 🍻🍺

BA might find it pretty hard to persuade some members of the short haul crew to switch to long haul, A320 to A330.

[HOVIS]

BA might find it pretty hard to persuade some members of the short haul crew to switch to long haul, A320 to A330.
I was responding to the post about engineers.
If the A330NEO is a replacement for an existing fleet surely the CC would come from LH not SH.
If its an additional fleet then I presume recruitment would be in order.

[fjencl]

BA might find it pretty hard to persuade some members of the short haul crew to switch to long haul, A320 to A330.
Is there such a thing as a short haul crew member , I was under the impression that everybody was mixed fleet and long haul and short haul is mixed over the period of the rostered 6 week, however I could be wrong , does anybody know if you can be short haul ONLY at BA. Just wondering. Thanks.

[Cazza_fly]

Is there such a thing as a short haul crew member , I was under the impression that everybody was mixed fleet and long haul and short haul is mixed over the period of the rostered 6 week, however I could be wrong , does anybody know if you can be short haul ONLY at BA. Just wondering. Thanks.

At LGW, cabin crew either work shorthaul only (euroflyer) or longhaul only (777 mainline). At LHR, they are fully mixed short and longhaul flying now.

[Kiltrash]

BA165 to Tel Aviv almost got there today and turned round to London ..hope they loaded enough fuel for a round trip

[Trinity 09L]

BA165 to Tel Aviv almost got there today and turned round to London ..hope they loaded enough fuel for a round trip
it turned back south of Cyprus

[Big Tudor]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/762x1024/img_2512_10ffe3d3dcf28aa9d376142fc7425ce97e324610.jpeg
It was a bit closer than ‘just south of Cyprus.’

[Sotonsean]

British Airways is to resume Abu Dhabi in 2024.

British Airways flights between London Heathrow and Abu Dhabi are to resume on the 20 April 2024, daily flights with a Boeing 789.

BA073 LHR 22.25 AUH 08.30+1 789 Daily
BA072 AUH 10.10 LHR 15.20 789 Daily

With the resumption of Abu Dhabi, this brings the amount of destinations served by British Airways to the region to eight.

They include the following.

Abu Dhabi
Amman
Bahrain
Doha
Dubai
Kuwait
Riyadh
Tel Aviv

I wonder if Jeddah might be the next destination in the region to see a possible resumption of service by British Airways 🤔

At one point British Airways had quite a large presence in the region especially compared with today.

They include the following, including the airlines current destinations marked with a +.

Abu Dhabi +
Aden
Aleppo
Amman +
Ankara
Baghdad
Bahrain +
Beirut
Damascus
Damman
Dhahran (Until 1999 on completion of Damman)
Doha +
Dubai +
Jeddah
Kuwait +
Muscat
Riyadh +
Sanaa
Tehran
Tel Aviv +

Some of the above destinations were later served by BMI under franchise to British Airways. But many of those were also flown by British Airways long beforehand.

Edit....After being reminded by others regarding the misleading information regarding BMI under franchise to British Airways. I would like to correct that piece of information. BMED being under a franchise to British Airways and not BMI under a franchise to British Airways. BMED was eventually purchased by BMI and the British Airways connection had ceased. BMI were eventually sold to British Airways.

[davidjohnson6]

I don't see Aden, Aleppo, Baghdad, Beirut, Damascus, Sanaa or Tehran being served by a UK-based airline any time soon...

[Sotonsean]

I don't see Aden, Aleppo, Baghdad, Beirut, Damascus, Sanaa or Tehran being served by a UK-based airline any time soon...

Neither do I for absolutely "obvious reasons," and I should imagine that any other intelligent person would also agree. I don't think that anyone, especially those who pay attention to geopolitics, would suggest otherwise.

But nonetheless, they are previous destinations flown by British Airways.

[SWBKCB]

Some of the above destinations were later served by BMI under franchise to British Airways.

This doesn't ring a bell - anybody got details?

[SealinkBF]

This doesn't ring a bell - anybody got details?

When BMI bought British Mediterranean?

[Sotonsean]

This doesn't ring a bell - anybody got details?

I would personally give the details but for obvious reasons for which you are fully aware of I'm not going to do so on this occasion.

But thanks to SealinkBF for his post in part explaining it.

Now does that ring your bell 🤔

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

I would personally give the details but for obvious reasons for which you are fully aware of I'm not going to do so on this occasion.

But thanks to SealinkBF for his post in part explaining it.

Now does that ring your bell 🤔
Aren't you the one mixing up BMI with BMED? BMI have never flown under a BA franchise agreement to these destinations, BMED did for many years, but this arrangement ended when BMI bought them out. BMED was merged into BMI and the BA branding was removed.
I'd love to know the secret details of which others are aware?

[Sotonsean]

Aren't you the one mixing up BMI with BMED? BMI have never flown under a BA franchise agreement to these destinations, BMED did for many years, but this arrangement ended when BMI bought them out. BMED was merged into BMI and the BA branding was removed.
I'd love to know the secret details of which others are aware?

To be honest Skip I knew BMED was merged into BMI, I should have known better. But it's not been the best of days so far today so I'm getting my BMs mixed up and the relevant franchise routes.

But nonetheless as you have rightly pointed out BMED flew under a franchise arrangement with British Airways rather than BMI. And the other points you have stated regarding the end of that franchise arrangement.

[SealinkBF]

BA’s quarterly operating profits surged by 50% to £617 million

British Airways summer profits surge 50% despite air traffic control outage | Travel Weekly (https://travelweekly.co.uk/news/air/british-airways-summer-profits-surge-50-despite-air-traffic-control-outage)

[PAXboy]

I have not seen this reported elsewhere. My emphasis in red.
Customers were left horrified after several mice were allegedly spotted in a British Airways lounge at Heathrow Airport.

Footage online shows two rodents scurrying around the floor near several brown armchairs in the business lounge. An anonymous passenger expressed their "disgust" after spotting the unexpected guests and criticised British Airways over its "lack of cleanliness" following the incident. Posting a clip on Facebook, they wrote: “So this is British Airways lounge at Heathrow.

“When I go to the reception to let them know there are over three mice eating under our feet, the receptionist doesn't leave the desk and says she will let management know. “And when I complain about the free-roaming mice and the cleanliness state of the lounge (or the lack of it) through my British Airways executive, the agent says they adhere to the highest standards and it's normal for mice to reach some areas.

“How has British Airways lost its standards like that and how awful is this customer service? “This is only one video, I have multiple, showing different areas. It's just gross - British Airways business class lounge.”

The post attracted hundreds of likes and comments, with many people critical of both Heathrow and BA over the lack of cleanliness.

Social media user Vivian Blick wrote: “About sums up BA standards. I think they should be stripped of the'British' name as they are an embarrassment.”
Helen Richards added: “When we were stuck at Heathrow for 14 hours in September, we found the mice bloody good company and far nicer than any unhelpful staff.”
John Gregory said: “Gotta feel sorry for the mice, eating BA food.”


A spokesperson for British Airways said: “We are working with Heathrow Airport to make sure uninvited guests don't get past the door in the future.”
Heathrow Airport has been contacted for comment.

Yahoo news (https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/passenger-horrified-spotting-mice-british-103523392.html)
How could this happen? My guess is that the cleaning was outsourced for the cheapest cost.

We'll be in a T5 lounge in a couple of weeks, I'll keep a look out.

[SealinkBF]

It's London, I'm afraid it will happen.

[Rivet Joint]

All went downhill when the Spanish lot got involved. Is it any surprise that the majority of the focus and investment goes to the Spanish airlines in the group or that they have turned BA into a low cost operator like the rest of the group?

They have 3 separate Spanish low cost operator brands and are trying to buy a 4th in Air Europa. What the hell is that about?! Most the new short haul aircraft are going to these low cost operators as well, whilst BA are stuck with 20 year + old Airbus. Don’t expect much from BA anytime soon.

[Flightrider]

A spokesperson for British Airways said: “We are working with Heathrow Airport to make sure uninvited guests don't get past the door in the future.”

I thought they'd been doing that for years anyway. Mostly BAEC Bronze card holders....

[True Blue]

And most UK airports pay lip service to proper cleaning. Most are a disgrace, not helped by the public who seem to believe that they can just throw everything around them for someone else to clean up.

[Mr Mac]

And most UK airports pay lip service to proper cleaning. Most are a disgrace, not helped by the public who seem to believe that they can just throw everything around them for someone else to clean up.
True Blue
I tend to agree with you on that.

On another point re BA I have just walked in to the study to find my wife booking her seats down to Nairobi for next month, and having to pay to pre book a window seat in Business Class. This must be the only airline in the world where you have to book your seats and pay for them when in premium as I cannot think of another. It seems a very bizarre thing and also not cheap either at £80 each way. I am meeting her in Nairobi but coming down from DXB with EK, however I will be returning with her to London on BA. I have not flown with BA since 2009 or used LHR, so will be interested to compare with LH,EK,SQ who I normally fly with.
Cheers
Mr Mac

[Asturias56]

you'll be disappointed I'm afraid..................

[nguba]

BA introduced paid for seat selection in business class at the time of the financial crisis when hitherto non-status passengers could only select a seat when online check-in opened.

It's unlikely to change any time soon but with the Club Suite there's less impetus to pre-select a seat in long haul business class, compared to the 8 across layout in Club World where single passengers / couples / families will have their preferred seats and seats they'll want to avoid.

It looks like you will be on the Airbus A350 travelling from Nairobi, so you will at least have the Club Suite.

[SouthernAlliance]

you'll be disappointed I'm afraid..................

Maybe you should let them be the judge of that. For one bad experience with BA comes another good one!

[Mr Mac]

Thanks for the comments, and I will report, though on a Red Eye coming North I am not really expecting much ! It will be interesting to see if we end up with a bags issue, as back then I was on first name terms with Fred the White van man who would pitch up with the bags around 6 hrs later to the point I was aware of his preference for Dark Chocolate Digestive biscuits with his Coffee. I have yet to meet a LH,EK,SQ Fred !!!

Cheers
Mr Mac

[rkenyon]

This must be the only airline in the world where you have to book your seats and pay for them when in premium as I cannot think of another.


Emirates and Qatar both charge for reserving Business seats on the lower fare buckets.

[Downwind_Left]

Emirates and Qatar both charge for reserving Business seats on the lower fare buckets.

I think its fairly standard now, airlines don't want all the good seats taken by the early-booking leisure travellers on cheaper tickets, leaving the dregs available to the high value business customers who tend to book much closer to departure. And for people who really do want to book, its a source of revenue to the company.

Obviously zero pushback from frequent flyers, since Silver/Gold (and oneworld equivalents) have free seat selection at booking, as do full-fare bookings, and Bronze from 7 days out... so it only affects people who don't fly often and have booked cheaper tickets.

[Asturias56]

Maybe you should let them be the judge of that. For one bad experience with BA comes another good one!

if only it was one bad experience - generally the standards have been slipping for years I'm afraid.

[TURIN]

They have 3 separate Spanish low cost operator brands and are trying to buy a 4th in Air Europa. What the hell is that about?! Most the new short haul aircraft are going to these low cost operators as well, whilst BA are stuck with 20 year + old Airbus. Don’t expect much from BA anytime soon.
Er. I'm pretty sure BA are in receipt of rather a lot of brand new A320/321 NEOs and A350s.

As for "don't expect much".
I have personally flown 6 sectors on BA, LH and SH all in CLUB, within the last two months. Only one bad experience and that was the food on a return from MCO. The Club cabin on the A350/B787 was superb. The staff were friendly and attentive, I even saw a senior cabin attendent dealing with a very rude and disruptive passenger with patience and professionalism second to none. Personally I would have decked him if he had spoken to me like that!
Maybe I'm just lucky.

[pabely]

Er. I'm pretty sure BA are in receipt of rather a lot of brand new A320/321 NEOs and A350s.

Quite easy to find pichures of brand new build Airbuses at Hamburg XFW nearing completion, seems a waste of money to paint in BA colours then send to Spain!

[Max Angle]

I work at LHR and over the years I have seen mice in quite a few different areas, it is not really down to BA, BAA own the building and the mice don't care which bit of the terminal is run by BA, World Duty Free, Prada or Costa Coffee If they are in one area, they will be everywhere.

Not saying its right but short of hermetically sealing the lounge there is little BA can do about it, anywhere that food is being served will be a magnet for a rodent.

[Sotonsean]

I work at LHR and over the years I have seen mice in quite a few different areas, it is not really down to BA, BAA own the building and the mice don't care which bit of the terminal is run by BA, World Duty Free, Prada or Costa Coffee If they are in one area, they will be everywhere.

I'm not saying it's right, but short of hermetically sealing the lounge there is little BA can do about it, anywhere that food is being served will be a magnet for a rodent.

Very hard to eradicate once they have made their presence. Due to the airports layout and all the different buildings with all the various eateries and associated pipework, getting rid of rodents will always be an upheal struggle.

BAA Limited no longer exists as they officially changed their name on the 15 October 2012 to Heathrow Airport Holdings Limited.

[TURIN]

Quite easy to find pichures of brand new build Airbuses at Hamburg XFW nearing completion, seems a waste of money to paint in BA colours then send to Spain!
More evidence of BA orders....

http://travelweekly.co.uk/news/air/british-airways-to-gain-new-long-haul-aircraft


https://simpleflying.com/british-airways-aircraft-on-order/#:~:text=British%20Airways%20has%2028%20planes,10%20x%20Boei ng%20787%2D10s (http://travelweekly.co.uk/news/air/british-airways-to-gain-new-long-haul-aircraft)

[Mr Mac]

I will let you all know post experience if that is ok. May I point out that apart from Tax, this is a free flight so just an observation on the experience as we both could have flown with EK on the same.basis , geography and work makes it work.

Cheers
Mr Mac

[Mr Mac]

I was having a look at Flight radar for my wife’s trip tomorrow on my way to Germany last night, and it was quite surprising to see that it is very rarely on time varying between 20 min and 5.5hrs !

Can I ask if those regular users of BA and LHR if that is standard for BA there as it’s a pretty lamentable performance at your Hub airport.

Cheers
Mr Mac

[DaveReidUK]

I was having a look at Flight radar for my wife’s trip tomorrow on my way to Germany last night, and it was quite surprising to see that it is very rarely on time varying between 20 min and 5.5hrs !

Can I ask if those regular users of BA and LHR if that is standard for BA there as it’s a pretty lamentable performance at your Hub airport.

It's a fundamental misconception that FlightRadar24's history shows departure times. It doesn't - it shows takeoff times.

The difference between the two - i.e. pushback and taxy - can easily exceed 20 minutes at an airport like LHR.

[andymartin]

It's a fundamental misconception that FlightRadar24's history shows departure times. It doesn't - it shows takeoff times.

The difference between the two - i.e. pushback and taxy - can easily exceed 20 minutes at an airport like LHR.

How does that answer the question?!

[Downwind_Left]

How does that answer the question?!

Because Dave was explaining that a flight that’s shown on FR24 as 20 minutes late probably left the gate ontime or early according to the schedule.

Just picking a random example, BA219 LHR-DEN today is shown as 1225 scheduled departure, 1243 acutal on FR24.
But the scheduled departure time is the time the aircraft is expected to leave the gate, whereas FR24 is showing the airborne time. The actual departure time according to BA.com was 1218.

So you see the discrepancy. A flight scheduled to leave at 1225 leaves 7 minutes early at 1218, but is misreported by FR24 as leaving 18 minutes late.

And the same thing applies to arrivals in reverse. FR24 shows landing time not arrival at the gate. I was recently on a BA flight that landed 20 minutes early but due to delays on the ground finally arrived on stand 10 minutes late. So the actual arrival was delayed by 10 minutes, whereas FR24 would wrongly report it as 20 minutes early.

[SWBKCB]

FR24 isn't wrong, it's just using a different method. It's a flight tracking site, not a record of airline punctuality.

[Lordflasheart]

...
Does ...OOOI ... answer the question ?

[DaveReidUK]

FR24 isn't wrong, it's just using a different method. It's a flight tracking site, not a record of airline punctuality.

Exactly. The issue is when people mistakenly try to use it as the latter.

Does OOOI answer the question ?

Don't complicate matters, Matron. :O