British Airways-2

[772]

BALPA ballot has ended and they have voted in favour of the new deal

[davidjohnson6]

New codeshare with Kenya Airways. Yes, I was surprised. The website is reputable so I assume it is true

[spacedog]

Result of Alex Cruz scorched earth policy at the start of the pandemic. Scrapped 31 perfectly good 747 aircraft which were not due for retirement until 2024. All the wide bodied fleets are working flat out at the moment, with the exception of the A380 which are slowly being reintroduced. There are no spare wide bodied airframes at the moment. With USA opening up next month something has to give.

BAs current performance is nothing short of abysmal. Their punctuality stats ex LHR are appalling.
The current Heathrow management team is shambolic no structure no leader no direction.
Sean Doyle has been in charge now for just short of 1 year and has yet to put his footprint on the direction he wants to go. He inherited a real :mad: fest from Cruz but can’t hide behind that and COVID for ever. At some point he needs to make some sort of statement and action. Ultimately he is CEO and is the one who is accountable for the complete mess at LHR.

[PAXboy]

Scrapping the 74s was short term money. CEOs no longer look even 5 years ahead.

[Dannyboy39]

It also didn’t make total financial sense. I guess BAW owned all their 744s and paid for a long time ago… so no lease rates. Yes, they are fuel heavy, but it doesn’t cost much to keep them in parking / long term storage down at CWL or elsewhere. Not to say that some withdrawals would’ve been inevitable.

This problem definitely isn’t exclusive to BAW however.

[wiggy]

From one website:

<<Passengers travelling from Heathrow to Nairobi with BA will be able to book connecting flights with Kenya Airways to destinations including Douala, Zanzibar, Lusaka, Mombasa, Addis Ababa and Entebbe. BA currently operates four flights a week to Nairobi using a four-class B777.>>

Is the suggestion from the team here that if BA had retained it’s 744s it would allow them to return to operating interesting “add on’s” to it’s Nairobi services instead of this code share, or is the thought that there is now enough traffic to justify the likes of Dar or Mombasa direct to/from London?

Those with long memories will know BA used to operate the 744 (and before that other long haul types ) to places such has Dar and Mombasa as extensions to the NBO services years ago and I think at much the same time the 767 did one or two dedicated non-stop services to that part of the world.

That all stopped because the economics didn’t stack up….has (potential) business increased so much that the 744 Afrika Corp :ooh: needs to be reformed, or is the code share perhaps a smarter move than we think?

[DaveReidUK]

The team might also be surprised at just how much it does cost to keep an aircraft mothballed (in the case of BA's 747s probably for several years) in a state that would permit a potential return to service. It's not simply a question of parking it in the desert to await the breaker's axe.

[Albert Hall]

I think the debate about the 744s is completely academic - were they still in the BA fleet today, they wouldn't have enough cabin crew to run them, just as for the rest of the fleet at the moment!

[PAXboy]

The 320s that operate to KEF, are they the standard European fit? i.e. with 'biz' as standard with blocked middle?
Thanks.

[VentureGo]

British Airway's A380's; G-XLEK and G-XLEA appear on FRF24 currently in Manila.
G-XLEK arrived yesterday (23rd) from Madrid as BA9171
G-XLEA is currently showing on ground at MNL , Destination unspecified (N/A)

[CabinCrewe]

Yes. There is not an alternative.

[PAXboy]

Cheers. They were not that clear. Now I can book seats.

[vectisman]

BA now actively recruiting management positions for the new Gatwick short haul subsidiary. Aim
is to start operations in Summer 2022.
By Summer 2022 I mean start of airline Summer timetables so probably late March 2022

[davidjohnson6]

Over 18 months since global lockdown began... was BA right in hindsight to have terminated the 747 ? I know former 747 pilots and cabin crew will have a strong opinion, but hoping for an answer of what was in IAG shareholders' interests rather than the point of view of (former) employees or spotters.

In responding, (and I know this is obvious to all but the most ardent of believers, so please don't take offence), remember there is a cost to putting a fleet into storage, and a cost to bringing it out of storage, along with the associated payroll and training costs, and that a type with just 1 air frame is pointless - so for 18+ months of storage to have been worthwhile, there needs to be a *substantial* need from Jan-2022 onwards that can't be met by the existing (or new deliveries) fleet

[nguba]

Before COVID-19, BA's original plan was to have 12 747s left by the end of 2022 with the last aircraft retired in February 2024. As well as the cost of bringing aircraft back into service, it's worth remembering what kept the 747s going in part at BA were the 86J versions that BA could fill on relatively short routes to JFK etc.

With business travel unlikely tor return in meaningful form until next year, it was probably the right to decision to retire the aircraft early.

[Vokes55]

Given that they were owned assets that cost very little to dispose of and were on the way out anyway, the answer is probably yes. Especially given how long it's taken for a meaningful restart.

On the contrary to the above, routes like JFK are easily replaced by the 777, especially the high-J 77W. The 747 found itself in this configuration and on these routes because it was more efficient to use older aircraft on shorter routes, which is why they haven't been regularly seen East of Delhi for a good 7-8 years now. The routes that'll 'miss' the 747 are the high density leisure orientated routes that also have a sizable premium demand and aren't reliant on high frequencies - such as Cape Town, Las Vegas and Miami - although the densification of the 772 fleet has closed the gap somewhat.

[wiggy]

dave..

Being amongst other things ex BA747 I know a lot of people got very attached to the Queen of the Skies and there were some very strong opinions expressed on the 744 sell off last year - probably understandable but the sentiment in some quarters was such that some employees had a theory that was verging into tinfoil hat territory regarding the motives for the scrapping…..

That said I find it very hard to disagree with either nguba and Vokes on this. From an economic /inventory POV once the potential scale of the stoppage became known it’s hard to see any justification for doing anything other than sell the airframes off.

[PAXboy]

The company have changed our seat reservations for trip to KEF. I had specifically chosen seats - and paid for them in advance. When I went to look where the new seats were, I saw that all the seat reservation charges wer now much less than I paid. Can i get a refund of the balance?

BA tell me the reason for the change is 'Operational Reasons'. Obviously I do not doubt them, especially as it is exactly the same a/c type operating the sectors ...

[BA318]

Yes. If they changed the seat you can get a full refund on the reservation fees. CE cabins are quite flexible at the moment so there are lots of shifts happening.

[Dannyboy39]

So what sort of routes are BAW going to operate out of LGW. Very much the same as before (minus the LH hops obviously)? Or probably a rehash of MON just with deeper pockets?

Routes like: GLA, EDI, JER, DUB, BHD, CDG, ABZ, NCE, VIE, ZAG, LCA, PFO, CPH, SSH, GNB, LYS, MPL, TLS, BER, DUS, FRA, HAM, MUC, GIB, ATH, CFU, KGS, JMK, ZTH, TLV, MXP, FCO, NAP, PSA, VCE, AMS, OSL, ARN, FAO, LIS, FNC, ALC, BCN, MAD, IBZ, TFS, ACE, FUE, AGP, MAH, LPA, PMI, ZRH, GVA, BSL, AYT, DLM, BJV

I guess that's a long list for only 17 aircraft - presumably they will consolidate the business routes there into LHR and it'll be left with B&S routes...

[BA318]

I would imagine holiday flights. Very much the same flights operating pre-COVID.

From the list above I can’t see CPH, DUS, FRA, MUC, HAM, TLV, OSL, ARN or ZRH ever operating from LGW with BA.

[772]

My thoughts,

EDI, JER nope unless BA see merit in a W rotation, DUB nope EI operate it, BHD, nope that would be an LHR/LCY route, CdG nope, VY operate it, ABZ nope, it worked at LGW when the oil/gas longhauls were at LGW like DFW and IAH but not now. CPH, ARN, OSL nope as they are LHR routes and head to head with Norwegian. ZRH is an LHR route, same for HAM, MUC, BSL, TLV, MXP, LIS, MAD. MAD is covered by IB Express, BCN covered by VY

i suspect a similar but smaller LGW operation to pre covid, leisure, mainly point to point and VFR focussed.

I think an important focus for the new subsidiary is flattening out the curve between summer peak and winter lull.

focussing Christmas markets, ski markets, Lapland and winter sun hopefully will be a focus. Anything and anywhere to stimulate demand in the traditionally leaner months of November, December (excluding Christmas) January and February.

I know BA last year did plan a few new routes from LHR that were heavily VFR focussed like Cluj etc, those heavy VFR routes could be useful to th3 LGW operation, especially post covid, other than that, to fill the leaner months,

the likes of SZG, INN, FDH, LYS, GNB, KTT, RVN, NUE, CGN?, LPA, TFS, ACE, FUE?, SSH, HRG etc and be creative, not every destination needs to be served for five months, like the Christmas markets, they were popular pre covid, target three or four of the biggest markets and serve the, say 10th Dec to 5th January

summer I’d expect traditional point to point leisure routes. With 17 a/c many ex LGW routes won’t operate or be from LHR. Any routes BA have found with good LHR longhaul feed figures will stay, I’d expect DBV to remain at LHR, as a hunch.

[vectisman]

Long haul continues to operate from London Gatwick. About 8 777s being required for the Winter 20212/2022 season and increasing to 11 or 12 for Summer 2022. The difference being that long haul remains with
Mainline operation. I suspect the cabin crew for these Gatwick long haul flights are the remaining 300 or so Gatwick crew who were not made redundant in 2020. Flight crew for the 777s are Heathrow based.
I know that BA are in contact with the former Gatwick Cabin Crew talent pool and asking them them to let them know if they wish to be considered for the new subsidiary before the end of November.
I believe the plan is currently for an initial 17 SH aircraft for Summer 2022 to increase by several units per year for several years. If demand warrants the number of units will be increased sooner.

[vectisman]

As for short haul routes to some extent it depends on how independent and innovative the new short haul subsidiary is allowed to be. There may be even be scope for limited feeders for the long haul operation.
Although I agree domestics may not be the initial focus, pre-Covid BA was carrying about a few hundred thousand a year between London Gatwick and Edinburgh. There is probably a fairly decent point to point market
for some domestic services. Likewise Jersey may warrant a seasonal service from Gatwick. Amsterdam and Rome were served from Gatwick, but catering more for point to point leisure travellers. The cheaper cost of Gatwick
allowed BA holidays to offer some good value city breaks. To some extent it may depend on how demand for certain destinations recovers at Heathrow and pressure on BA slots at that airport. Increasing charges at Heathrow and
the third runway seeming further away than ever ,will also have a bearing on BAs plans for Gatwick both long-haul and short-haul.

[pabely]

So what happens to all those slots BA hold, is there some sort of slot waver for S22?

[BA318]

I don’t believe so at this moment. If no waiver, it reverts to the use it or loose it rule which means they need to use the slots 80% of the time. So if they plan for some routes from S22 then they will likely just have different times through the week etc and ad hoc cancellations etc so all slots remain used 80%. They can also lease some out or sell (but I guess that market is kind of depressed).

[Flightrider]

There is no confirmation (either way) of a slot waiver for S22 as yet. A consultation from DFT is expected any day now, and it is already obvious that any slot waiver for S22 will be far more hotly contested than for the previous three seasons. It's far from clear as to whether any alleviation will be granted or this is just seen to be delaying a correction / shake-out that is perceived to be overdue anyway, depending on to whom you listen. Anyone banking on a slot waiver for S22 without a Plan B is playing a decidedly high-risk game.

[PAXboy]

I see the company is now actively recruiting across many fields. I doubt they will be oferring the same salaries as those they laid off ...

[CabinCrewe]

what is this Gatwick EuroFlyer nonsense?

[vectisman]

What do you mean by using the term ‘nonsense’
Gatwick Euroflyer is simply the official legal name of the new Gatwick short haul subsidiary.

[Jet Set Willie]

EuroFlyer at LGW, CityFlyer at LCY. Companies both being run by the same MD and Finance manager. The plot thickens ;)

[davidjohnson6]

During the current 4 week period of A380s being used to/from Frankfurt... are there any normal passengers on these aircraft ? I don't think I've ever seen such a huge number of people so keen on doing a guided tour of an aircraft cabin while flying... nor flight deck and cabin crew with such enthusiasm for their job and so willing to make avgeeks happy

[Dannyboy39]

Probably all got their own vlogs too...

[nivsy]

It's old news really..they did it also when the 380 first came in to service in 2013...the aircraft also flew to FRA and MAD ..and it was fun times and the crew generally excited. Changed days eh ..
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1342/img_20130921_100904_5b56cfa6d328a13e749e15d639b6b1c71058c4ce .jpg

[PAXboy]

I am seeing reports that BA cutting a couple of thousand rotations from now till March.

[nivsy]

I guess all those cancellations etc can once again only be expected. It's not really returning to normal flying is it yet and I suspect that it will not for a while. A lot of the fun of it is now a distant memory for many.

[PAXboy]

I hope that some of those rotations will now get reinstated.
On another point, I should like to pass on strong thanks for a check in desk agent at T5. I have looked through the website but cannot find the link.

[DaveReidUK]

Say thank you to somebody at British Airways (https://www.britishairways.com/travel/webforms/public/en_gb?eId=120001&wfpId=customer_compliments)

[PAXboy]

Thanks DRUK,

[5711N0205W]

BA network seized up this AM, manual load sheets according to the Captain of the delayed flight I was on this morning. Looking at FR24 delay seemed to be fairly endemic through the network, who forgot to feed the hamster?

was today not 20 years ago… #title

[BA318]

BA network seized up this AM, manual load sheets according to the Captain of the delayed flight I was on this morning. Looking at FR24 delay seemed to be fairly endemic through the network, who forgot to feed the hamster?

was today not 20 years ago… #title

They have had a terrible few days. Huge baggage backlog, lots of short haul cancellations, their website all went down this morning and there were the issues you describe.

Willie Walsh and Alex Crux’s cuts are coming back to bite them. Not enough staff, poor IT infrastructure and lots of fed up passengers. The thread on a frequent flier forum about this is very enlightening about the state BA find themselves in.

[PAXboy]

BA long ago failed to realise that - without tip top IT - they are nothing. Like thousands of companies they saw it as a utility. Noawdays, a true 21st century company is one that STARTS with IT and then looks for what it is going to sell. The obvious example is a certain online retailer named after a river. An airline is an IT company that happens to sell seats on aircraft. Everything has to focus on getting those seats full and off the ground. I have consisently seen BA computer and IT network failures over the last years. I recall one big one where Cruz willingly told the news cameras that they would find out what went wrong and tell the shareholders and passengers. Of course that never happened as they had overseen the cuts that made the mistakes.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

It's a C Suite decision and they made the wrong call for short term shareholder value (greed). IT was simply seen as just another cost, and "cost cutting is in our DNA" BA just wasn't going to invest. Having seen many businesses leap from ancient data centres to cloud managed services, I knew BA were dinosaurs and it's long past time this stuff breaks. My current employer is the same, our current migration is 10 times more painful as it's decades late.

[davidjohnson6]

The problem for the average CIO, is that it typically takes a few years and a lot of money to migrate the company off a bunch of legacy systems. If those systems are absolutely critical to the company (and these exist at all firms), the migration had better be perfect... or the CIO gets pushed under the bus when problems occur and customers complain. Furthermore, after the passage of a few years, at least a few of the C board members will likely have moved jobs or retired... so the benefit of the capex spend is not seen under their watch. The annual accounts don't really show investment in IT, and most investors will have sold and be long gone by the time a new IT system comes online.

Unless the CEO begs the CIO to migrate to a new system... it's literally more than the CIO's job's worth to do anything more than tinkering.
I write this as someone who knows a lot about Amazon's cloud product (AWS), but regret how depressing it really all is...

BA's IT infrastructure will improve significantly only if Luis Gallego (no, not Sean Doyle) wants it to improve

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

The problem for the average CIO, is that it typically takes a few years and a lot of money to migrate the company off a bunch of legacy systems. If those systems are absolutely critical to the company (and these exist at all firms), the migration had better be perfect... or the CIO gets pushed under the bus when problems occur and customers complain. Furthermore, after the passage of a few years, at least a few of the C board members will likely have moved jobs or retired... so the benefit of the capex spend is not seen under their watch. The annual accounts don't really show investment in IT, and most investors will have sold and be long gone by the time a new IT system comes online.

Unless the CEO begs the CIO to migrate to a new system... it's literally more than the CIO's job's worth to do anything more than tinkering.
I write this as someone who knows a lot about Amazon's cloud product (AWS), but regret how depressing it really all is...

BA's IT infrastructure will improve significantly only if Luis Gallego (no, not Sean Doyle) wants it to improve
It shouldn't be that different from investing in new cabins or aircraft. A decision was made to allow the hard product in the remaining B767s to become dinosaurs in market and eventually invest in new A320NEOs which are comparably more modern and way less comfortable. The investment decision was a medium term one.
Despatch reliability is an operational need, as is systems reliability. It's all about management buy-in, some leaders get it, some don't. The ones who don't just store up all the pain until it breaks and the next guy has a world of problems. Just like Boeing using the GE model to maximise short term shareholder value over putting the longer term interests of the business on a sound footing. One day the ball gets dropped and you get the Nightmareliner, Frankentanker and the MAX crashes.
Real leaders see IT as a BAU necessity and aren't afraid to get it right. Putting the pain off just make the cumulative agony worse.

[DaveReidUK]

It is of course possible that the BA bean-counters have got it right (from their, and the shareholders, point of view).

As noted above, the cost of a radical overhaul of BA's IT infrastructure is likely to be astronomical, and probably at least a couple of orders of magnitude larger than the cost and pain of a fair number of days of disruption.

It makes no difference to BA how many upset passengers swear never to use the airline again, unless it starts to make a big impact on the bottom line.

[SWBKCB]

It's hardly a unique industry though. Can not a lot of it be bought off the shelf?

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

It's hardly a unique industry though. Can not a lot of it be bought off the shelf?
You can get specialist assistance to migrate from one data platform to another, it gets tricky when you have multiple older platforms running in ways which are business critical and so there's a high risk of disruption in any move. With legacy IT over decades it's a nightmare of different coding and operating systems.

It is of course possible that the BA bean-counters have got it right (from their, and the shareholders, point of view).
As noted above, the cost of a radical overhaul of BA's IT infrastructure is likely to be astronomical, and probably at least a couple of orders of magnitude larger than the cost and pain of a fair number of days of disruption.
It makes no difference to BA how many upset passengers swear never to use the airline again, unless it starts to make a big impact on the bottom line.
I think we both know it does. As I said above, it HAS to happen, they just need to decide when. The status quo is not a credible option, support will stop and end of life approaches, so the question is how and when they fix it, not if.
Remember that pension scheme deficit that they ignored for years? Well that didn't end well either, same principle. Accenture Alex got his bonus on cost cutting short termism which leaves Sean Doyle an even harder job medium term.

[DaveReidUK]

It makes no difference to BA how many upset passengers swear never to use the airline again
I think we both know it does.

That depends whether you mean it does make no difference, or it doesn't make no difference. :O

[Asturias56]

"it gets tricky when you have multiple older platforms running in ways which are business critical and so there's a high risk of disruption in any move. With legacy IT over decades it's a nightmare of different coding and operating systems."

Mrs A manged the transfer of a vast set of data bases etc from a household name in the UK to the USA 10+ years ago . It was a nightmare - every time they started the move (which had to be done over long weekends as it was active in normal business hours) they found another "legacy" - some dating back to the late 1950's - chugging away below layers of new code. Planned at 3 months, actually took 30. One issue was identifying all the various data base entries for the same person under filed under different codes - Asturias56, 56ASturias, Snr Asturias, Mr & Mrs Asturias - and that's before you get to addresses and then different products and accounts.........

[inOban]

Shouldn't this be an IAG project, or would that make it even worse?

[davidjohnson6]

Changing the scope of an IT migration from just BA to all of IAG makes the task significantly harder, but in the long term is the right thing to do - the CEO will likely salivate over all the potential long term "synergies" that can be achieved (job cuts to you and me)
That said, France and Germany are raising the question with the EU about BA being a non-EU carrier and what IAG should do about it - this is a strategic question of much greater urgency to a CEO than IT system re-engineering

[DaveReidUK]

"it gets tricky when you have multiple older platforms running in ways which are business critical and so there's a high risk of disruption in any move. With legacy IT over decades it's a nightmare of different coding and operating systems."

Mrs A manged the transfer of a vast set of data bases etc from a household name in the UK to the USA 10+ years ago . It was a nightmare - every time they started the move (which had to be done over long weekends as it was active in normal business hours) they found another "legacy" - some dating back to the late 1950's - chugging away below layers of new code. Planned at 3 months, actually took 30. One issue was identifying all the various data base entries for the same person under filed under different codes - Asturias56, 56ASturias, Snr Asturias, Mr & Mrs Asturias - and that's before you get to addresses and then different products and accounts.........

I remember reading somewhere that a surprising proportion of worldwide IT expenditure (can't recall the exact %) is spent on migration projects.

[PAXboy]

A good friend of mine is a senior manager of software developers and support staff. About five years ago, a small company recruited him to migrate them from legacy systems to bring them up to date, After two years of struggling to get them to agree to what was needed - they still clung to the old systems. There was proof that they could save money and do much better on the small things that did migrate. Eventually, he realised they were not going to bite the bullet and left for another company. His pals have had similar experiences.

In the mid-1990s, when I was in telecommunications, I was working a contract for a large and well known UK high street company. The IT Director reported to the CEO which was good as we thought they took us seriously. Then the CIO was told to report to the finance director - who reported to the CEO. Effectively, demoting the whole IT department becuase the CEO thought that IT was all about money. What we did was ensure that every item was tracked from manufacture overseas through to ownership and guarantees.

In my view, most managers just do not understand IT and, therefore they ignore it. Hoping that the problem will errupt on the next man (it's always a man) who takes the hot seat.

[jdcg]

With BA now banned from Russian airspace, how will they route to Beijing, Tokyo etc?

[BA318]

With BA now banned from Russian airspace, how will they route to Beijing, Tokyo etc?

at the moment they don’t fly to Beijing or Seoul. Tokyo route is cancelled and I guess passengers can go on the JAL flight which has a BA codeshare.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

It's happened again, app and website down, aircraft stuck on stand, global IT breakdown at BA. The whole operation will now slowly grind to a halt.
Again

[Spanish eyes]

Russian cyber attack?

[eu01]

It's happened again, app and website down, aircraft stuck on stand, global IT breakdown at BA. The whole operation will now slowly grind to a halt.
Again
What if it is NOT a coincidence, it could well be a cyber attack this time.

[BA318]

What if it is NOT a coincidence, it could well be a cyber attack this time.

Russia wouldn’t need to bother. It’s an open fact that BA’s IT goes down on at least a weekly basis at the moment.

[Downwind_Left]

Russia wouldn’t need to bother. It’s an open fact that BA’s IT goes down on at least a weekly basis at the moment.

That’s not a fact though is it? BA have had a few IT issues recently, but the IT going down at least on a weekly basis. Sounds dramatic, but hardly credible as a statement.

[BA318]

That’s not a fact though is it? BA have had a few IT issues recently, but the IT going down at least on a weekly basis. Sounds dramatic, but hardly credible as a statement.

check out Flyertalk. There are threads there on it. It went down on Tuesday and at least there were reports the week before of the website not working for a period and the week before that. If you prefer I’ll say it at least has had monthly issues with its IT either website going down, app not working or the Fly system going down.

[AirportPlanner1]

There are definitely glitches on Avios. If you press search again you get combinations of your previous destination or previous dates.

[davidjohnson6]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60533275
"It is understood the system issues are not a result of any cyber attack."
All A320-family flights out of LHR between 6am and 11:59am cancelled.. 85 round trip flights all with EU261 liability

[DaveReidUK]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60533275
"It is understood the system issues are not a result of any cyber attack."
All A320-family flights out of LHR between 6am and 11:59am cancelled.. 85 round trip flights all with EU261 liability

That number sounds a bit high - there are usually about 50-55 such departures pre-midday on a Saturday.

[Dannyboy39]

When are BAW ever going to get a grip of their antiquated IT systems?

[DaveReidUK]

That number sounds a bit high - there are usually about 50-55 such departures pre-midday on a Saturday.

Not just departures, it looks like inbounds are being cancelled too. Nightstoppers, including those at BCN, FCO, ZRH and PRG, all appear to be stranded at those airports.

[Alteagod]

I dont think Fly ever worked since the got rid of PRS. It was an old system but seemed stable.

[Chris2303]

85 round trip flights all with EU261 liability

I thought Britain had left the EU?

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

The legislation remains in place until revoked and/or replaced.

[PAXboy]

I believe 261 is relevant on flights into and out of the EU.

[DaveReidUK]

The Air Passenger Rights and Air Travel Organisers' Licensing (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2019/278/made/data.pdf)

[SWBKCB]

The Air Passenger Rights and Air Travel Organisers' Licensing (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2019/278/made/data.pdf)

Clear, transparent, straight forward

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Is the new arms-length Gatwick short haul operation, BA EuroFlyer, going to be flying as BA/BAW "Speedbird" or will they have their own callsign? It's a separate AOC but not heard anything else.

[Downwind_Left]

Is the new arms-length Gatwick short haul operation, BA EuroFlyer, going to be flying as BA/BAW "Speedbird" or will they have their own callsign? It's a separate AOC but not heard anything else.

The precedent is BA Cityflyer, which run all their commercial operation as British Airways, and fly under BA codes on all flights, including charters. But flight plans are filed under their CFE code and “Flyer” call sign. I would expect Euroflyer to be the same arrangement.

[gsky]

On a different subject. Trying to book a flight using multiple future travel vouchers on BA.
..Does anybody know if this can be done on line? (I have tried but withoput success)
or is still necessary to book through the BA call centre ( who dont answer the phone!)
Anybody know please?

[BasilBush]

On a different subject. Trying to book a flight using multiple future travel vouchers on BA.
..Does anybody know if this can be done on line? (I have tried but withoput success)
or is still necessary to book through the BA call centre ( who dont answer the phone!)
Anybody know please?

My understanding is that if it’s an e-voucher you can use it online. But if it’s just a regular FTV you have to phone.

More information on the Flyertalk BA Exec club pages

[Musket90]

On a different subject. Trying to book a flight using multiple future travel vouchers on BA.
..Does anybody know if this can be done on line? (I have tried but withoput success)
or is still necessary to book through the BA call centre ( who dont answer the phone!)
Anybody know please?

I made a similar enquiry recently and got this response· "To book on ba.com (https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ba.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmagdalene.palling%40holidays.ba.com%7Cc9ae7c2 ef99749fb584308d8e537177b%7Cddd66cceffe14029967c5e15ef73127f %7C0%7C0%7C637511372061633205%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIj oiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D %7C1000&sdata=vWy3EfQqXKkyyKLmwhKgYe%2Fsd8FxP%2F0RMdKmdLEtt9M%3D&reserved=0), complete payment with a credit or debit card as usual. Then simply reply to this email with your new booking reference and we will apply your voucher as follows:

o If you have paid a deposit towards your new booking, we will credit your voucher against the outstanding balance, reducing the amount left to pay; or

o If you have paid for your booking in full, we will arrange a refund of the voucher value.

· Alternatively, our contact centre can redeem your voucher as immediate payment for your new booking made by phone. You can find our contact details here (https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.britishairways.com%2Fen-gb%2Finformation%2Fhelp-and-contacts%2Fcontact-us&data=04%7C01%7Cmagdalene.palling%40holidays.ba.com%7Cc9ae7c2 ef99749fb584308d8e537177b%7Cddd66cceffe14029967c5e15ef73127f %7C0%7C0%7C637511372061633205%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIj oiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D %7C1000&sdata=soxN0UdLuMlGOWrX2yqepo9xiRCRlPrt6753G4CVrXI%3D&reserved=0).

[jdcg]

I recently booked online using covid cancellation e-vouchers without any difficulty. Don't know about any other kinds of vouchers

[gsky]

I recently booked online using covid cancellation e-vouchers without any difficulty. Don't know about any other kinds of vouchers

tks


As mentioned I have numerous "future travel voucher" ( as descried on the emails from BA.
However when I try to book using these voucher numbers , showing my correct emails and log in details, the BA web site says it does not recognise the details.
I dont know if an e-voucher is the same as a 'future travel voucher' but whatever it is called.. BA system wont accept the details they gave me
and as stated, phone calls are a , well, impossible to get an answer.
unless anybody had a contact phone number that might be answered??

[bjones4]

tks


As mentioned I have numerous "future travel voucher" ( as descried on the emails from BA.
However when I try to book using these voucher numbers , showing my correct emails and log in details, the BA web site says it does not recognise the details.
I dont know if an e-voucher is the same as a 'future travel voucher' but whatever it is called.. BA system wont accept the details they gave me
and as stated, phone calls are a , well, impossible to get an answer.
unless anybody had a contact phone number that might be answered??
The Future Travel Voucher (FTV) is different to the e-voucher. The latter let's you use the '125-' ticket number as a voucher code and it deducts the value at the time of booking. The FTV (which was the original mechanism for vouchers that where more trouble than they're worth) can only be used by calling unfortunately. Its basically your old booking that's made dormant, they then take that booking and make all the necessary changes to it to create your new booking - waiving all the fees in the process. Your new booking then exists in the system with your original PNR. If using multiple FTVs they adjust the balance accordingly. No easy way of using it I'm afraid.

[gsky]

The Future Travel Voucher (FTV) is different to the e-voucher. The latter let's you use the '125-' ticket number as a voucher code and it deducts the value at the time of booking. The FTV (which was the original mechanism for vouchers that where more trouble than they're worth) can only be used by calling unfortunately. Its basically your old booking that's made dormant, they then take that booking and make all the necessary changes to it to create your new booking - waiving all the fees in the process. Your new booking then exists in the system with your original PNR. If using multiple FTVs they adjust the balance accordingly. No easy way of using it I'm afraid.

Many thanks for that.
Appreciate you taking the time.

But, what it means is I can only book on the phone, they dont answer the phone so I have spend thousands of £££'s and hundreds of thousands of Avios.
But I cannot book a flight using them!
Unbelievable.
BA you should be ashamed!

They just dont care.!

[wub]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1100x2000/ba_ev_4cfa3918afd7dec20e8e1e9d2aa0d6fb2cfec9af.jpg
This is what the E voucher looks like.

[gsky]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1100x2000/ba_ev_4cfa3918afd7dec20e8e1e9d2aa0d6fb2cfec9af.jpg
This is what the E voucher looks like.


tks

and YUP

thats what I get

and hen I enter any of my (six ) future travel vouchers ( and I have tired them all, all together, individually, all poss permutations


and I do know how to enter my email address, and my name and double check the voucher number((s) prefixed 125..

Here is the response I get:""Check your email and try again

Last nameCheck your details and try again

eVoucher codeCheck your eVoucher code and try again"

Still going around and around in circles

[wub]

When I used the above voucher, I found the flight I wanted and when it came to payment I entered the voucher number and the booking was made. The voucher was valued at more than the cost of the booking so I was emailed another eVoucher with the balance.

[SealinkBF]

tks


As mentioned I have numerous "future travel voucher" ( as descried on the emails from BA.
However when I try to book using these voucher numbers , showing my correct emails and log in details, the BA web site says it does not recognise the details.
I dont know if an e-voucher is the same as a 'future travel voucher' but whatever it is called.. BA system wont accept the details they gave me
and as stated, phone calls are a , well, impossible to get an answer.
unless anybody had a contact phone number that might be answered??

BA are refunding FTVs. I had my account recredited with Avios and the cash I spent on a ticket. I found the FTV impossible to use online.
Not sure what the criteria is for refunding but it has been covered by Head for Points blog.

[deltahotel]

I blow hot and cold with BA. Two recent flights (INN&VRN) both Business, paid for by Avios. The face to face service throughout was excellent from the greeting at T5 all the way through the flights. BUT the IT is appalling at almost every stage whether it's dealing with relocated flights (LGW to LHR), adding COVID docs, checking in etc etc etc.

[BA318]

Another weekend, another BA meltdown. 25 flights arriving last night told they would not receive their bags - most only after being made to wait up to several hours at T5.

There are also lots of reports of planes waiting for up to and some even over a hour to park at T5 because nobody is available to turn the stand guidance system on.

This morning plenty of short haul flights cancelled - AMS, BSL, GVA, ZRH, MUC, TIA, EDI, NCE, CDG, LIS.

[MANFAN]

BA app very slowwwwww today...just booked a flight with them which took around 30 mins!
When going through the process, despite being signed into the app, I had to manually enter all my personal details, including credit card info, despite this normally being held in the app, so this added to the long process!
And no bookings are shown in the My Booking section of the app...I assume due to another technical issue!

[PAXboy]

South Africa changes their PCR entry rules on Wed 22nd.
By that afternoon, the BA website has acknowedlged it and shows new requirements.
On Thursaday, the website still confirms that.
Thursday evening, try to check-in? They haven't changed the bit that asks for VeriFLY data.
Such Fun.

[BA318]

It’s being reported again on Flyertalk that BA are suffering another IT outage with delays at LHR.

[SealinkBF]

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/heathrow-system-failure-british-airways-delays-b2047344.html

[WHBM]

Noticing in the last couple of days that operators based at Stansted - Ryanair, Easy, Jet 2 all seem to be rolling along in and out pretty much as scheduled, maybe a couple of late evening arrivals delayed by an hour or so, but that is true of normal times. BA at Heathrow has multiple cancellations, longer delays, etc, that have made the press. The flight information is one thing, but after arrival further accounts of lengthy holds for gates, non-delivery of any baggage from the flight at all, etc.

Whatever is it that BA have allowed to happen that does not afflict these other London-based operators ? I did see a (non-aviation) source writing about their staff who were "off with Covid" that it did seem the "usual suspects" were well represented there among them. Is this a BA experience ?

[SealinkBF]

Noticing in the last couple of days that operators based at Stansted - Ryanair, Easy, Jet 2 all seem to be rolling along in and out pretty much as scheduled, maybe a couple of late evening arrivals delayed by an hour or so, but that is true of normal times. BA at Heathrow has multiple cancellations, longer delays, etc, that have made the press. The flight information is one thing, but after arrival further accounts of lengthy holds for gates, non-delivery of any baggage from the flight at all, etc.

Whatever is it that BA have allowed to happen that does not afflict these other London-based operators ? I did see a (non-aviation) source writing about their staff who were "off with Covid" that it did seem the "usual suspects" were well represented there among them. Is this a BA experience ?

Constant cost cutting, I'd say, to the point where there is nowhere to go when the hamster wheel in IT falls over.

[WHBM]

But, what it means is I can only book on the phone, they dont answer the phone so I have spend thousands of £££'s and hundreds of thousands of Avios.
But I cannot book a flight using them!
As you appear to be about 15 miles from manchester airport, can you nip over to the BA desk there and do it ?l

[toledoashley]

As you appear to be about 15 miles from manchester airport, can you nip over to the BA desk there and do it ?l

After a problem at T5 the other day, I was told nobody in the terminal could do ticketing - only the call centre!! So would say that’s unlikely!

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

After a problem at T5 the other day, I was told nobody in the terminal could do ticketing - only the call centre!! So would say that’s unlikely!
Until very recently that wasn't true. There were indeed staff who were trained on ticketing, for obvious reasons. Another triumph from Alex "cost cutting is in our DNA" Cruz?

[Asturias56]

"After a problem at T5 the other day, I was told nobody in the terminal could do ticketing -"

the words "I wish to fly First Class to New York peasant" normally produces someone pretty quick

[TheFiddler]

As you appear to be about 15 miles from manchester airport, can you nip over to the BA desk there and do it ?l

Flew BA from MAN yesterday. No BA desk open, and they only opened check-in (no bag drop) with just over 2 1/2 hours to go. 3 staff from Menzies for 8 check-in desks. It took an hour to drop 2 bags. An hour queue before security (which actually only took 15 mins) is appalling service.

BA don't care about Manchester.

[Mackem in Consett]

Flew BA from MAN yesterday. No BA desk open, and they only opened check-in (no bag drop) with just over 2 1/2 hours to go. 3 staff from Menzies for 8 check-in desks. It took an hour to drop 2 bags. An hour queue before security (which actually only took 15 mins) is appalling service.

BA don't care about Manchester.
I think you've answered your own quote. Menzies handle BA at Manchester. And security isn't a BA issue either.

[BA318]

Flew BA from MAN yesterday. No BA desk open, and they only opened check-in (no bag drop) with just over 2 1/2 hours to go. 3 staff from Menzies for 8 check-in desks. It took an hour to drop 2 bags. An hour queue before security (which actually only took 15 mins) is appalling service.

BA don't care about Manchester.

Its not a Manchester thing. BA don’t seem to care about much right now. Take a look at the queues at LHR, lots of flights without luggage etc.

[The96er]

Flew BA from MAN yesterday. No BA desk open, and they only opened check-in (no bag drop) with just over 2 1/2 hours to go. 3 staff from Menzies for 8 check-in desks. It took an hour to drop 2 bags. An hour queue before security (which actually only took 15 mins) is appalling service.

BA don't care about Manchester.

Opening check-in at 2 1/2 hours is the standard contracted opening time these days for short haul flights for most airlines and the contracts usually stipulates 2 agents.

[Max Angle]

I was told nobody in the terminal could do ticketing
I think that is now true, an airline that can't sell a customer a ticket at their main base, what an embarrassment.

[HOVIS]

As you appear to be about 15 miles from manchester airport, can you nip over to the BA desk there and do it ?l
Last time I looked the only BA staff at MAN were the engineers. All ground ops are handled by Menzies.

[Hartington]

Don't get me started on ticketing skills at airports. Something like 20 years ago I had a RTW Star Alliance business class ticket. I was booked on a Thai flight Kuala Lumpur to Bangkok in economy because the particular flight only had economy. I turned up early for a flight that did have business. Nobody (and I mean NOBODY) at Thai understood the difference between "booked" and "paid" class they just looked at the booked class on the later flight and refused to understand that I had paid for business. BA are by no means the first people to do away with ticketing staff at airports.

[MissChief]

BA Check-in at Manchester is appalling. Nothing to do with airport security. The fact that there are insufficient staff (maximum 3) is BA's fault, whether or not they are contracted. It is better to travel with other carriers, such as KLM/AF on long-haul than to route via LHR with BA. Unpleasant experience at MAN, 5 times this year so far. No more planned.

[tigertanaka]

BA Check-in at Manchester is appalling. Nothing to do with airport security. The fact that there are insufficient staff (maximum 3) is BA's fault, whether or not they are contracted. It is better to travel with other carriers, such as KLM/AF on long-haul than to route via LHR with BA. Unpleasant experience at MAN, 5 times this year so far. No more planned.

For 5/6 departures a day which all spaced 2-3 hours apart and with a maximum of around 200 people per flight, 3 check in staff would seem reasonable to me. NCL has a similar level of BA flights to MAN and generally seem to operate with 2 check-in desks.

[TheFiddler]

I think you've answered your own quote. Menzies handle BA at Manchester. And security isn't a BA issue either.

I wasn't criticising security - actually saying it was good. That BA farm it out to Menzies and either don't have decent SLA's, or don't enforce them is terrible.

And while I accept that usually 2 1/2 hours is acceptable, it isn't when you've had an email from the same company telling you to be there 3 hours before hand!

Defend BA all you like, at the moment they, and Menzies, are shocking compared to almost every other airline.

[TheFiddler]

For 5/6 departures a day which all spaced 2-3 hours apart and with a maximum of around 200 people per flight, 3 check in staff would seem reasonable to me. NCL has a similar level of BA flights to MAN and generally seem to operate with 2 check-in desks.

Queuing for an hour to drop bags isn't reasonable. It takes 10 mins with other carriers.

[WHBM]

Last time I looked the only BA staff at MAN were the engineers. All ground ops are handled by Menzies.
Surely part of the handling for a scheduled carrier is ticketing ? I've been ticketed by Ryanair at Bristol airport, and that pretty surely was by the agent, not airline staff.

[BA318]

Surely part of the handling for a scheduled carrier is ticketing ? I've been ticketed by Ryanair at Bristol airport, and that pretty surely was by the agent, not airline staff.

It is if the carrier allows the agent to do so. I think BA doesn’t. Even at T5 very few people are able to ticket for BA. Another reason BA call centres are swamped.

[Asturias56]

"obody (and I mean NOBODY) at Thai understood the difference between "booked" and "paid" class they just looked at the booked class on the later flight and refused to understand that I had paid for business. BA are by no means the first people to do away with ticketing staff at airports."

Sadly we had exactly the same experience 30 months ago at Changi with Singapore on a n ANZ ticket paid for business but booked in Premium Economy - "no we can't change it"

[BA318]

BA is considering opening a temporary crew base in Madrid with staff being away from base for 5-6 days at a time operating short haul Airbus flights out of LHR. The staff would be employed by Randstad.

https://forms.office.com/pages/responsepage.aspx?id=zmzW3eH_KUCWfF4V73MSfxEArRZUnslBs8oBuCx GJpBURTJCTjdCN1gyUTBNNDAwVVFTUEM2WDhVUS4u

[DaveReidUK]

BA is considering opening a temporary crew base in Madrid with staff being away from base for 5-6 days at a time operating short haul Airbus flights out of LHR. The staff would be employed by Randstad.

Employed by Randstad ??

[BA318]

Employed by Randstad ??

Yes. BA will use agency staff if the plan goes ahead.

[wiggy]

So the idea is recruit staff for a MAD base to actually operate (as presumably cabin crew) on BA Short Haul flights ex-LHR?

Interesting idea on many levels....

[BA318]

So the idea is recruit staff for a MAD base to actually operate (as presumably cabin crew) on BA Short Haul flights ex-LHR?

Interesting idea on many levels....

Yes. Apparently it would be limited until the end of October.

[DaveReidUK]

Thanks for clarifying that it's cabin crew being discussed here - that wasn't clear from the original post nor from the form that you linked to.

[Rutan16]

Imho it’s a very sensible and very very temporary solution to the current labour issues exacerbated by post Brexit immigration rules on entry and work VISAs . These crew’s can fly some Spanish registered 320s and the Gatwick cheap fleet routes over the summer and then be released.

Come the winter I predict the UK will be in full scale recession and the current blip in air travel demand (fuelled by vouchers holders) in the leisure markets to have fizzled out.

If anything I can see unemployment rates ( artificially low at the moment) rise exponentially and the wage pressure ( currently upwards) to both change trajectories.

A significant period of economic adjustment to take place over several quarters as the UK PLC GDP retracts within the new realities.

In my own company I am having to project a drop in work post July based on current enquiries domestically ( remain low in many sectors) and indeed within the EU to a lesser extent.

Construction is struggling in many markets ( here and across the EU) and a specialist fire product manufacturer ( where lead periods are three plus months for deliveries ) often sees these trends quite early on .

Materials: metals glass timber and electronics are in short supply globally with delivery delays and ever rising prices extending our finished product dispatches from The UK, Spain, and Poland and impacting in Portugal as well.

Taking “ permanent staff” on at the moment is not such a good deal for employers or shareholder value , more rather managing the situation is the goal even it that impacts some revenues ( over yield) with cancellation some compensation payment risk, and a little customer disappointment in the process.

[Wycombe]

.....we all have different circumstances and perspectives, and whilst I agree with some of what you say, that seems like an overly pessimistic view to me

[nivsy]

Ok I'll get out there and catch the bait..is this not really odd? I mean why be based at Barajas but really for operating flights out of LHR? Are they looking for IB express people to fill the roles? What is the rationale? Don't they have enough interest from London based staff?

[Rutan16]

.....we all have different circumstances and perspectives, and whilst I agree with some of what you say, that seems like an overly pessimistic view to me

Maybe maybe not however as you say we all have our own views on events .

The recession is a given through, just look at the figures and economic conditions on peoples own buying power and that of many sectors .
I don’t see it’s as pessimistic just a reality to be managed

The UK economy is forecast to retract by many at several % without COVID19 impacts and it’s pull over the last 6 quarters.

[Rutan16]

Ok I'll get out there and catch the bait..is this not really odd? I mean why be based at Barajas but really for operating flights out of LHR? Are they looking for IB express people to fill the roles? What is the rationale? Don't they have enough interest from London based staff?

The UK market is currently squeezed of those willing to take marginal salaries barely at minimum wage and those that want limited time contracts.

One thing I would say don’t be surprised if there are some union reactions to these posts in the coming weeks.

Contract workers on foreign term contracts working out of Heathrow ain’t going to go down well is it ?

Its not what people expected in “controlling immigration” policies is it - This and P&O together yet I can’t work in Nantes or Badajoz for more than a few days at a time ( on my Uk passport anyway) !
Only people inflicted by ending of freedom of movement are UK passport holders .

[wiggy]

One thing I would say don’t be surprised if there are some union reactions to these posts in the coming weeks.

Contract workers on foreign term contracts working out of Heathrow ain’t going to go down well is it ?
.

That's was the sort of thing I was hinting at with my comment about this supposed plan being interesting on so many levels.

I don't know how much leverage UNITE/BASSA have anymore at BA but maybe it's a case of the company not having to care about the plan not going down well... (and yes, agree with your comment about the loss of FoM for work purposes)

[Mr Mac]

Imho it’s a very sensible and very very temporary solution to the current labour issues exacerbated by post Brexit immigration rules on entry and work VISAs . These crew’s can fly some Spanish registered 320s and the Gatwick cheap fleet routes over the summer and then be released.

Come the winter I predict the UK will be in full scale recession and the current blip in air travel demand (fuelled by vouchers holders) in the leisure markets to have fizzled out.

If anything I can see unemployment rates ( artificially low at the moment) rise exponentially and the wage pressure ( currently upwards) to both change trajectories.

A significant period of economic adjustment to take place over several quarters as the UK PLC GDP retracts within the new realities.

In my own company I am having to project a drop in work post July based on current enquiries domestically ( remain low in many sectors) and indeed within the EU to a lesser extent.

Construction is struggling in many markets ( here and across the EU) and a specialist fire product manufacturer ( where lead periods are three plus months for deliveries ) often sees these trends quite early on .

Materials: metals glass timber and electronics are in short supply globally with delivery delays and ever rising prices extending our finished product dispatches from The UK, Spain, and Poland and impacting in Portugal as well.

Taking “ permanent staff” on at the moment is not such a good deal for employers or shareholder value , more rather managing the situation is the goal even it that impacts some revenues ( over yield) with cancellation some compensation payment risk, and a little customer disappointment in the process.
Rutan 16
I would tend to agree with you regards to the economy in the UK looking forward, as the costs are rising very steeply in the construction sector, which is my own sector, with double digit price rises coming through in all sectors as you say. I have also heard from people in the retail industry in the “hobby” sector who said that things were ok in March but have “fallen off a cliff in April “ due to peoples worries with regards energy bills , tax rises etc. That is what I hear in the UK, in Europe where I spend most of my working time there are similar worries especially with regards to energy costs.


Cheers
Mr Mac

[PAXboy]

Rutan 16 Yes, the UK is headed for a very sticky five years - possibly more. The country had not fully recovered from the 2008 crash when Covid and Brext arrived, with Putin ensuring a bad outcome. The USA have not realised what is coming down the track as the USD loses it's status and the massive financial upheaval they face. I am expecting civil unrest.

nivsy What is the rationale?
Money!

[El Grifo]

Well ! It was fun while it lasted :-)
El G.

[El Grifo]

Well ! It was fun while it lasted :-)
1965- 2005
El G.

[wowzz]

We have two BA flights booked for the next couple of weeks. Outbound from LHR to BCN, returning from ATH. There have been ongoing cancellations on both routes. Can anyone give some idea as to how much notice BA are giving when flights are going to be cancelled.

[nomilk]

Between 3 months and 3 hours at the moment..

[wowzz]

Between 3 months and 3 hours at the moment..
Yes, I know it's like asking about the length of a piece of string, but I was hoping for some actual experiences.

[renfrew]

You can try asking on Flyertalk BA Executive Club which has threads about this.

[kcockayne]

Six BA flights booked; three cancelled by BA. One lot cancelled at two days’ notice, the other at ten weeks’.
I suppose that I should be grateful that the cancellation rate was ONLY 50% !
I have family loyalty to BA ; but it is being seriously threatened !
It is not just a matter of the flights; there are other things going on in relation to the travel including arrangements made with other peoples’ travel. The whole issue makes it nigh on impossible to co-ordinate our holidays.
Not good enough !

[WHBM]

It is about time that the CAA got stuck into the cancellation issue, starting with comparisons between various operators of their cancellation rates. We can all understand the Lockdown issues from the last two years, were it not for the fact that other carriers, home and overseas, seem to be back to running full schedules. Hopefully the CAA still have enough nouse to identify the real reason for the differences, rather than accepting a one paragraph excuse from Sean Doyle's whitewash department. There also seems to be some hiding in the statistics of measuring cancellation rates against schedule at point of departure, so those dropped in advance are not measured. The CAA used to be very tough on airlines "having insufficient resources to operate their published schedule", to the extent that it could be necessary to charter in very expensively to cover a flight AOG or crewless which had few people booked on it anyway, so there must be procedures for this.

[wiggy]

I have family loyalty to BA ; !

There's residual loyalty to BA in his household as well but was severely tested in the run up to Easter when one family members flights were "rejigged" :rolleyes: so comprehensively that their travel proposed plan became completely unworkable...

[BA318]

Your comment is simply untrue. Hardly any carriers are running full schedules anywhere. There are issues at airports across the world. Perhaps you are a Daily Mail or Daily Express reader.

Plenty of carriers are not cancelling 50+ flights a day as BA are doing. Plus this BA line that it’s airport issues are frankly rubbish. The biggest problem for BA has been a shortage of crew and a shortage of ground staff both in their control not Heathrow’s.

Which Magazine also reported that it had complained to the CAA about BA’s cancellations and their belief that BA was not following the correct rules regarding duty of care etc to passengers. https://www.which.co.uk/policy/travel/8835/ba-cancellation-and-re-routing-policy

[WHBM]

Your comment is simply untrue. Hardly any carriers are running full schedules anywhere. There are issues at airports across the world. Perhaps you are a Daily Mail or Daily Express reader.
Just wrong. Even BA Cityflyer at London City are making a much better job of it.

Do you think that carriers like TUI or Jet2 are just dumping people's holidays, with cancellations at a few days' notice, leaving those in the resorts stuck there ?

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Your comment is simply untrue. Hardly any carriers are running full schedules anywhere. There are issues at airports across the world. Perhaps you are a Daily Mail or Daily Express reader.
Ouch. I like BA as you do but they've utterly dropped the ball in planning and operational resilience. 20+ A320 series parked because they can't crew them and money flying out the door to Finnair and Iberia Express to cover BA's own routes. Does any other UK airline have that many of their own aircraft unusable?
Then add creating a new low cost subsidiary at LGW as it was the "only way to turn a profit" but is clearly a stick to put pressure on mainline and you can see why the wheels are coming off.

[wiggy]

Your comment is simply untrue. Hardly any carriers are running full schedules anywhere. There are issues at airports across the world. Perhaps you are a Daily Mail or Daily Express reader.

Well certainly at least one carrier ;) has for some months now certainly been advertising and selling tickets for flights on what looks remarkably like their pre-Covid schedule on a couple of routes I'm very very familiar with..

The reality of what's operated on the day has however been consistently different from the plan, and the cancellations/consolidations have nothing to do with the airport(s).

[wallp]

Anyone know if the Titan 757’s are being used on specific routes this summer?

[JerseyAero]

Yes, I know it's like asking about the length of a piece of string, but I was hoping for some actual experiences.

I have 4 flights booked with BA and 2 out of the 4 have been cancelled, both around 4/5 weeks before. As it stands I was able to select alternative flights which will not cause too much disruption but if there are further cancellations it may well cause problems.

[HOVIS]

This may give an indication of why there are delays and cancellations. I am told that this is for BA at LHR. 😳
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/721x953/_20220507_165052_45580ccbb87ae69cf9c9c2fcd02ea4553a1bce42.jp g

[Trinity 09L]

Thanks for confirmation on Finnair assisting BA, a colleague said he was booked to travel as such shortly. Similar to boarding ANZ DC10 to the east of USA in the past.

[WHBM]

Thanks for confirmation on Finnair assisting BA, a colleague said he was booked to travel as such shortly. Similar to boarding ANZ DC10 to the east of USA in the past.
Not at all, those were crewed wholly by BA, who set up a DC-10 pilot pool at Heathrow to run them, for quite some years in the late 1970s. The crew used to go to KLM in Amsterdam for their periodic Sim sessions. There were aircraft utilisation reasons why they came to this arrangement with ANZ, which I was a regular on LHR-LAX in those years. There's a periodic poster on here who was one of the BA FOs on this at the time.

[Wycombe]

So, BA are leasing in capacity from Iberia Express, Finnair and Titan (at least, maybe others I'm not aware of), but have a whole fleet of 321ceo's (the G-EUXx aircraft, at least) that sit idle, apparently as they haven't the crews to operate them...brilliant!

[Rutan16]

So, BA are leasing in capacity from Iberia Express, Finnair and Titan (at least, maybe others I'm not aware of), but have a whole fleet of 321ceo's (the G-EUXx aircraft, at least) that sit idle, apparently as they haven't the crews to operate them...brilliant!

This from my post before the recent news

Taking permanent staff at the moment is not such a good deal for employers or shareholder value , more rather managing the situation is the goal even it that impacts some revenues ( over yield) with cancellation some compensation payment risk, and a little customer disappointment in the process.

Pretty much as BA are doing through this summer. They really really don’t want to take on permanent contracted staff right now with training costs etc….. if come winter they need to be let them go again.

It a pure case of managing and sweating resources and as it happens Finnair been so damaged by the Ukraine military campaign and closure of neighbouring Russian airspace having availability immediately and at no doubt competitive rates !

These leases are clearly simply part of that management process.

Finnair are also operating the Helsinki - Barcelona route on behalf of Iberia ( have been doing so for some time)

Whilst equally hit by the current conflict Air Baltic are operating for both SAS and Lufthansa ( Eurowings) for similar reasons.

The industry is in crisis and the current economic trajectories aren’t exactly rosey right now!

[DaveReidUK]

Not at all, those were crewed wholly by BA, who set up a DC-10 pilot pool at Heathrow to run them, for quite some years in the late 1970s. The crew used to go to KLM in Amsterdam for their periodic Sim sessions. There were aircraft utilisation reasons why they came to this arrangement with ANZ, which I was a regular on LHR-LAX in those years. There's a periodic poster on here who was one of the BA FOs on this at the time.

Slightly OT, but BA used to do the engineering as well on those ANZ DC-10s at LHR. I remember an urgent search through the maintenance records as soon as the news came through about the Erebus crash, before it became clear that it was unlikely to have been a technical issue.

[LBAflyer22]

Pretty much as BA are doing through this summer. They really really don’t want to take on permanent contracted staff right now with training costs etc….. if come winter they need to be let them go again.
!

Considering the fact they cut numbers substantially throughout the pandemic and operated a skeleton service I very much doubt this is the case. They actually need permanent staff/crew on the books if you've cut the numbers of crews as drastic as they have and plan to operate the flights they do. You make it sound that come October BA will go back to how they were operating throughout the pandemic, very few flights, mostly cargo runs and that's all. This is wrong - they didn't during the last economic downturn. People still want to travel and will travel.

Plus as we've learnt it's worth having them ready for the up turn which happens inevitably.

[WHBM]

Taking permanent staff at the moment is not such a good deal for employers or shareholder value, more rather managing the situation is the goal even it that impacts some revenues ( over yield) with cancellation some compensation payment risk, and a little customer disappointment in the process.
OK then, but don't schedule beyond your available resources. Which is what has been got wrong. If you don't want to take on and train permanent staff ... don't announce what you can't manage.

[Wycombe]

OK then, but don't schedule beyond your available resources. Which is what has been got wrong. If you don't want to take on and train permanent staff ... don't announce what you can't manage.
The point is that BA, as is well known, got rid of too many staff (or tried to fire and re-hire them on inferior contracts) to begin with. Looks like they underestimated the impact/reaction that strategy would have and are now struggling to recover.

As we have seen over many years at BA, the mantra to cut cost as the expense of almost everything else (except perhaps safety) has driven them to the point where they are taking the kind of measures that we are discussing, and although as you say these things are done with the aim that they enhance "shareholder value", those same shareholders surely can't like that assets are sat on the ground costing money rather then being "sweated" as you claim.

[Rutan16]

OK then, but don't schedule beyond your available resources. Which is what has been got wrong. If you don't want to take on and train permanent staff ... don't announce what you can't manage.
Not disputed however in their defence BA are having to comply with the reintroduction of slot usage controls at Heathrow initially 70/30 so something has to be done to protect that whilst continuing to manage resources .
LBA I am not advocating for NO recruitment period and neither do I think we will be back in lockdown however simple economics certain recession and spent vouchers will mean a pretty lean winter and indeed likely 2023, so massive recruitment is far from a good idea , it’s call management and sweating of recourses and an important business tool especially for a company recording huge losses !

[Rutan16]

The point is that BA, as is well known, got rid of too many staff (or tried to fire and re-hire them on inferior contracts) to begin with. Looks like they underestimated the impact/reaction that strategy would have and are now struggling to recover.

As we have seen over many years at BA, the mantra to cut cost as the expense of almost everything else (except perhaps safety) has driven them to the point where they are taking the kind of measures that we are discussing, and although as you say these things are done with the aim that they enhance "shareholder value", those same shareholders surely can't like that assets are sat on the ground costing money rather then being "sweated" as you claim.
Those assets are parked rather cheaply at the moment whilst the company is bleeding red recording massive losses and they simply aren’t needed, crews or no for the foreseeable . Finnair have crews current and fully up to date and frames a plenty going spare . It’s an accidental marriage of convenience right now both parties making ( loosing less money) in the process !

[LBAflyer22]

LBA I am not advocating for NO recruitment period and neither do I think we will be back in lockdown however simple economics certain recession and spent vouchers will mean a pretty lean winter and indeed likely 2023, so massive recruitment is far from a good idea , it’s call management and sweating of recourses and an important business tool especially for a company recording huge losses !

The thing is they need to recruit more permanent staff otherwise they end up cancelling flights as the resource isn't there to crew the flights. Remember, especially when it comes to crew/flight deck, the number should/probably does include plenty of sickness and leaving. There is simple facts. They have cut harsh and harder then required without taking into account the furlough scheme (government failure). They now have the rebound of travel going on without the resource required. You cannot and will not attract people to work for the national airline/BA and move to London without offering permanent contract as your competitors will win - Virgin. BA know this and therefore it's the right thing to do.

I bet they've even taken into consideration a pessimistic scenario and worked out they need to recruit and permanent. BA do not suffer as much seasonality as other airlines so it's not like you can work the crew harder in Summer and let them take it easy in winter. BA need those numbers more or less year round.

[Wycombe]

the company is bleeding red recording massive losses

At present, yes, but IAG is forecasting a return to profitability in the near future....

https://www.travelmole.com/news/iag-bullish-on-return-to-profit-next-quarter/?utm_source=newsletter-744&utm_medium=email

On another note, a (proper) British airline, Jet2, announced a few days ago that they will operate more flights in S22 than they did in S19, and that they see no let-up in demand.

It's not all doom and gloom out there!

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Those assets are parked rather cheaply at the moment whilst the company is bleeding red recording massive losses and they simply aren’t needed, crews or no for the foreseeable . Finnair have crews current and fully up to date and frames a plenty going spare . It’s an accidental marriage of convenience right now both parties making ( loosing less money) in the process !
They are needed, they just can't be crewed. There's be no need to lease in other airline's assets at market rate if BA could crew their own operation like certain other competitors.

[Trinity 09L]

Druk and Whbm
Thanks fir your replies, it did not help passengers being bussed to a stand and then introduced to a ANZ aircraft for a trip to the USA. At least my informant has been told it’s Finnair, when he promotes BA as a businessman.

[WHBM]

Druk and Whbm
Thanks fir your replies, it did not help passengers being bussed to a stand and then introduced to a ANZ aircraft for a trip to the USA. At least my informant has been told it’s Finnair, when he promotes BA as a businessman.
I remember that happening as well, including the bussing to a remote stand (even then). In fact there was an FA at the foot of the DC-10 steps whose principal task seemed to assure passengers that this was the BA flight to LAX. This was despite using those old steps which had a display of flight number and destination on a pole attached to them. Of course, to the airline, there was nothing to say. It was a BA flight, not a code share, on the BA AOC, wholly staffed by BA crew. The paint scheme was incidental. The current arrangements are different.

The ANZ aircraft previously laid over at LAX from Auckland during the afternoon/evening, and as the round trip LAX-LHR-LAX takes just over 24 hours, the eastbound aircraft set off about 2 hours before the westbound one arrived; it was thus a different aircraft every day so they were not badged up as such. It was also the longest sector BA operated at the time, when they still only had the original -100 series 747s. The US carriers operated them at the extremes, but for BA procedures LAX was fractionally too far until the -200 747s came along, when this was their first route.

[DaveReidUK]

The ANZ aircraft previously laid over at LAX from Auckland during the afternoon/evening, and as the round trip LAX-LHR-LAX takes just over 24 hours, the eastbound aircraft set off about 2 hours before the westbound one arrived; it was thus a different aircraft every day so they were not badged up as such. It was also the longest sector BA operated at the time, when they still only had the original -100 series 747s.

Didn't the ANZ arrangement carry on after the 747-200s arrived at BA in 1977 ?

[wowzz]

As the OP who asked about cancellation lead times, I've read all the replies with interest.
What I still do not understand, is why BA management, with their knowledge of staffing levels, aircraft availability etc, cannot produce a rolling four week flight schedule, that allows customers sufficient time to rearrange hotels, car parking etc. rather than waiting until three or four days prior to departure before announcing cancellations.
I am also mystified as to why I am getting numerous emails from BA, encouraging me to fly with them, when the media is full of news about flight cancellations. Do the marketing department live in some parallel universe, where every flight is operating as normal ?

[PAXboy]

In a very wide range of companies, the number. Of people going off with Covid is still high. I hear this also in my extended family and in Facebook contacts. You feel fine on Thursday and wake up on Friday feeling terrible. Take a test and that could be you off work for 7 or 10 or more days. No software or human planner can work accurately with that level.
No, I have never worked in the airline world.

[WHBM]

Didn't the ANZ arrangement carry on after the 747-200s arrived at BA in 1977 ?
1978 I think. I was by chance on the first week of the 747 back from LAX (though not outward).

The DC-10 interchange did carry on, because BA had a several-years commitment to it. It continued to serve LAX twice a week to exchange aircraft with ANZ as before, but on other days served from London, in varying proportions and seasons, Boston, Miami, and one or two other points. I'm sure the crews, after several years of doing nothing but a single route, appreciated it.

[renfrew]

I was a passenger on the last ANZ flight which was LHR-JFK on 26/10/80.I believe it then picked up spares and continued to LAX for hand back.
Passengers wouldn't have known it was an ANZ aircraft as boarded via a jetway.

[Flightrider]

Combination of sources inc "Speedbird" - the BOAC history - and the 1999 British Airways Airlife book.

BA entered into the ANZ DC10 exchange as neither the 747-100s or 707-436s had range to operate non-stop to LAX, but BA was facing competition from Pan Am and TWA who were flying 707-300s non-stop.

Operations were on LHR-LAX from May 1975.

For Summer 1978, the arrival of the BA 747-236s provided aircraft which could fly LAX and this was the first route on which the -236Bs were flown. There was a further year on the interchange agreement still to run, and the ANZ DC10s were flown on five Miami and three Montreal flights per week plus two LAX to feed aircraft back into the ANZ network. The agreement ended in April 1979.

Can't vouch for any of that from personal experience but that's what the history books say!

[renfrew]

I have dug out a 1980 summer timetable.
The DC-10 is listed as operating to Montreal,Los Angeles and Boston on various days..

[ETOPS]

Boeing has confirmed that IAG has firmed up the 2019 LOI for new 737Max 'frames...

https://www.flightglobal.com/airlines/iag-to-order-up-to-150-737s-including-max-10-and-high-density-max-8/148714.article

British Airways and Iberia parent company IAG has agreed to order up to 150 Boeing 737 Max jets.

The order will comprise 25 737 Max 10 variants, plus 25 of the high-density 737 Max 8-200.

IAG is also taking 100 options, it states.

[DaveReidUK]

Not really news these days, but 120+ shorthaul BA flights cancelled f/t Heathrow today.

All the British Airways flights cancelled today from UK airports | The Independent (https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/cancelled-flights-updates-british-airways-heathrow-b2083390.html)

[vectisman]

Not really news these days, but 120+ shorthaul BA flights cancelled f/t Heathrow today.

All the British Airways flights cancelled today from UK airports | The Independent (https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/cancelled-flights-updates-british-airways-heathrow-b2083390.html)

Yes the Independent keeps going on about these. In reality, as they do mention in passing, most of these flights were removed from the schedules weeks ago now. Therefore most people have been rebooked etc… Of course there are still some last minute cancellations(not unique to BA) but thousands of people are not turning up to find flights cancelled every day.
I’m not sure what the Independent is trying to achieve here.

[nguba]

I assume The Independent is doing this because it helps them perform well on Google's search engine - which drives a lot of what online news sites do.

[VLCfkight]

Or could it be a free-lance travel correspondent by re-writing 'old news' in an attempt to boost their income?

[davidjohnson6]

Is anybody able to advise as to until what date tickets being on sale on the website can be considered a reliable sign that a flight will take place, with no more cancellations ? (Yes, subject to things like weather). Is it just 2 weeks ahead ?

I'd like to make a booking, but I know if BA cancel the flight I want to book with 2 week's notice it will be very expensive to find an alternative flight. It's important to me that if I book, I actually get to fly. I don't want to risk paying for other things (e.g. hotels) and then getting an email in a week's time saying "Terribly sorry, but your flight doesn't look sufficiently profitable to us so we have decided to cancel it and we will give you your money back when we feel like it"

[BA318]

Is anybody able to advise as to until what date tickets being on sale on the website can be considered a reliable sign that a flight will take place, with no more cancellations ? (Yes, subject to things like weather). Is it just 2 weeks ahead ?

I'd like to make a booking, but I know if BA cancel the flight I want to book with 2 week's notice it will be very expensive to find an alternative flight. It's important to me that if I book, I actually get to fly. I don't want to risk paying for other things (e.g. hotels) and then getting an email in a week's time saying "Terribly sorry, but your flight doesn't look sufficiently profitable to us so we have decided to cancel it and we will give you your money back when we feel like it"

It varies. They did cancel a batch but then every time something happens it knocks the flights back out for a few days. Where is the destination? Routes with multiple services seem to get some cancelled but still able to get people there.

Long haul also less likely to get last minute cancellations.

[nguba]

BA have put through a lot of frequency reductions well into the summer (JNB & MIA cut to daily for example) and brought in wet leases from Iberia and Finnair. There may be more to come, but they seem to have decided to just get a lot of cancellations out of way.

How the actual winter season schedule compares to the current timetable is a different matter altogether.

[SealinkBF]

According to Head for Points, Iberia have decided they can do ground handling at LHR better (cheaper???) than BA.

[CabinCrewe]

I don’t think they’re doing it themselves?!

[strawberry Ribena]

I don’t think they’re doing it themselves?!

I have noticed that red handling who look after Norwegian and TAP at LGW is on a major recruitment drive for LHR. Hiring everything from pax to ramp and dispatch. My money is on them.

[SealinkBF]

I don’t think they’re doing it themselves?!

My bad, I meant Iberia can source it better..

[Cloud1]

My bad, I meant Iberia can source it better..

Isnt sourcing of handling done through the IAG brand rather than individual airlines. Therefore Iberia won’t be deciding they can do anything differently it would be IAG leading that workstream.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Isnt sourcing of handling done through the IAG brand rather than individual airlines. Therefore Iberia won’t be deciding they can do anything differently it would be IAG leading that workstream.
I think those decisions are made at airline and not group level, I think it's an operational decision for Iberia.

[SealinkBF]

Isnt sourcing of handling done through the IAG brand rather than individual airlines. Therefore Iberia won’t be deciding they can do anything differently it would be IAG leading that workstream.

Sourcing is done by IAG for things like aircraft orders, but for operations it's all done by individual airlines. According to HfP.

[jmdavies86]

Looks like strike action is potentially on the horizon at BA due to pay and conditions:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/british-airways-facing-summer-of-strikes-by-cabin-crew/ar-AAYqV9L?fromMaestro=true

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Unite, which represents 16,000 BA workers, won a 97pc majority in a ballot for potential industrial action after claiming the airline reneged on a pay deal. The union, the UK's second largest, is also balloting 500 check-in staff on strikes that could be staged in July when demand is expected to surge.It claims BA has restored management pay to pre-pandemic levels but refused to reverse a 10pc pay cut that was imposed on workers during the pandemic.
Sean Doyle learning from Accenture Alex if this is true? The reason they're in operational meltdown is that good people can be paid more elsewhere for friendlier hours.

[WHBM]

IAG stock getting seriously shorted on the London and New York stock markets by hedge funds, who are normally the first spotters of poor management

City investors betting on fall in price of British Airways owner IAG (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/city-investors-betting-on-fall-in-price-of-british-airways-owner-iag/ar-AAYCv68?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=ed62307902e74ad8a1fa49a5d82e28d5)

The division between the operational airlines, and the investor-focused overlords at IAG seems to be turning out a poor structure, especially as they concentrate management ever more in Spain, whereas the bulk of the European investment is through London, where the operational details are more extensively reported.

Apparently the recent AGM was only in Madrid, unlike the dual AGMs of previous times on sequential days in Madrid and London, and BA were offering only C class fares priced around £700 for a day return for any City of London analysts who wanted to go and represent their investor clients. Somebody at IAG probably thought this was funny.

[SealinkBF]

BBC News - British Airways Heathrow staff back summer strikes over pay https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61906236

[PAXboy]

From the article:
The unions said the action was due to a 10% pay cut imposed during the peak of the pandemic not being reinstated.

Some 500 Unite members recorded a 94.7% vote in favour of industrial action, while 95% of GMB members backed the walkouts.

The strike dates will be confirmed in the coming days.

The proposed action relates to fewer than 50% of British Airways staff based at Heathrow in customer-facing roles only, and there are other customer service workers who have not been balloted.

It is understood that if strikes go ahead, BA, which operates from terminals three and five at Heathrow, has plans to cover staff, including managers potentially dealing with check-ins.

However, there would still be disruption for passengers, especially at terminal five, leading to cancellations, which would be focused on routes with several daily flights.

[SealinkBF]

BBC News - British Airways Heathrow staff back summer strikes over pay https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61906236

Good for them. They're aren't even asking for a pay rise, just a restoration, which I believe management received!
And the CEO of BA is paid an additional £250k a year to maintain two homes - one in London and one in Madrid.

[Standby Scum]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/648x365/on_its_tail_323a9077dcb4607711c2636c7716b112c73c8512.gif

[Bksmithca]

Is it me or is the jet in the background sitting on it's tail?

[wub]

Is it me or is the jet in the background sitting on it's tail?

It’s a scale model

[FUMR]

Used to be a scale model of Concorde. Changed to an Emirates A380 since 2008 I believe. Plenty more pics of it if you google it.

[DaveReidUK]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/648x365/on_its_tail_323a9077dcb4607711c2636c7716b112c73c8512.gif

Are you suggesting that BA staff at Heathrow haven't voted to strike ?

[p7lot]

I nearly choked on my tea lol
Arthur Scargil is in that pic somewhere surely?

[davidjohnson6]

Would anyone be able to advise how long it's taking BA to notify pax by email that a flight is cancelled, after a decision has been taken internally to cancel the flight ?

I have a booking for which the publicly available fare jumped overnight from (consistent over a week) 77 euros to 649 euros, which makes me suspicious. And yes, a similiar spike for the flight operating same day in the other direction.

I have too much experience of seat availability being zeroed out or fares spiking, phoning an airline and telesales staff insisting the flight is still going ahead... only to get a cancellation email a few days later. I no longer trust the affirmations by telesales about a flight not being cancelled !

[BA318]

Would anyone be able to advise how long it's taking BA to notify pax by email that a flight is cancelled, after a decision has been taken internally to cancel the flight ?

I have a booking for which the publicly available fare jumped overnight from (consistent over a week) 77 euros to 649 euros, which makes me suspicious. And yes, a similiar spike for the flight operating same day in the other direction.

I have too much experience of seat availability being zeroed out or fares spiking, phoning an airline and telesales staff insisting the flight is still going ahead... only to get a cancellation email a few days later. I no longer trust the affirmations by telesales about a flight not being cancelled !

I don’t think there is a set time. Lots of reports seem to say that it depends on the call centres and they try to stagger the cancellations if they can to not swamp them.

[pabely]

I bet if you were booked on an EZY domestic or European flight this morning you are pleased you chose Luton (or Gatwick or Stansted) this morning rather the Heathrow with BA!

[Buster the Bear]

You get an email basically scaring you along the lines of, your flight might be cancelled, free to rebook. If you take the latter you lose you ability to get any compensation IF the flight is cancelled. Russian roulette! Probably BA then assess the take up and cancel flights that overall have the less compo? Lovely way to treat customers!

[Buster the Bear]

So BA have been operating outbound flights empty, and cancelled all the passengers booked, due lack of baggage handlers, but operating the inbound leg full with passengers.

[The96er]

So BA have been operating outbound flights empty, and cancelled all the passengers booked, due lack of baggage handlers, but operating the inbound leg full with passengers.

Correct, although in the case of the LHR-MAN flight last night where they cancelled the flight and replaced it with a positioning sector, except they didn’t tell the crew and so the crew went home. That meant that they had to then cancel the positioning sector and subsequently cancel the first flight from MAN this morning as the aircraft was still in LHR !

[WHBM]

So BA have been operating outbound flights empty, and cancelled all the passengers booked, due lack of baggage handlers, but operating the inbound leg full with passengers.Does that include cancelling those with hand baggage only bookings ?

I don't quite get the "cancelling quieter flights due to shortage of baggage/immigration staff", because surely pax (especially those returning home) will just be rebooked on alternatives, and the overall numbers requiring baggage or immigration service remain the same.

[PC767]

I'm hearing that all BA LHR short haul flights are to be cancelled between the forthcoming August and October.

[DaveReidUK]

And not just hearsay.

BBC: BA LHR short haul flights are to be cancelled (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62070451)

[Downwind_Left]

And not just hearsay.

BBC: BA LHR short haul flights are to be cancelled (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62070451)

But clearly completely inaccurate to say that all BA short haul flights are cancelled between August and October.

The statement you are replying to is very much hearsay.

I see no realistic scenario where that happens. The long haul and short haul operations feed each other.

[DaveReidUK]

But clearly completely inaccurate to say that all BA short haul flights are cancelled between August and October.

The statement you are replying to is very much hearsay.

I see no realistic scenario where that happens. The long haul and short haul operations feed each other.

I agree, you would have to be fairly ignorant about BA's operation to suppose that 100 or so cancelled flights per day represent the airline's entire shorthaul operation.

But while it's clearly nonsense to say that all short haul flights are cancelled, I'd put money on most, if not all, of the cancelled flights being shorthaul - regardless of any SH/LH synergy.

[PC767]

My apologies. The information I received was from a flight crew friend who had received an internal email. Between us we misconstrued that all cancellations will be short-haul to all short-haul will be cancelled. In my defence I have not seen the original document, in his, he is just fed up of the combination of inept BA management of staff and the ever shifting sands of government policy. Considering the chaos that is prevalent, for a split second the scenario seemed perfectly likely.

[DaveReidUK]

Many thanks for the clarification.

[WHBM]

The statement in the press today, "British Airways slashes 10,300 flights" is pretty meaningless. It must have come from BA PR department, because the media nowadays just cut/paste whatever the press release says, without editing (apart from silly superlatives like "slashes"), and they surely haven't added up a detailed list of cancellations. It also looks good for the media to have a big number, like 10,300, to stick in a headline, regardless of what it means.

But what is this number of flights ? Is it 1%, or 10%, or 50% of the previous flight schedule. And what percentage of currently booked pax are impacted ? I also suspect the old BA game of cancelling all the trunk domestics whenever there is any issue at Heathrow, while continuing to run the full daily schedule of half-filled JFK flights, may come into play as well.

One also wonders where the shortfall actually is. If a shortage of flight crews, qualified by type, it seems strange to cancel all the A320 flights while keeping all the 787 flights. If it's ATC, have the other Heathrow operators made just the same percentage reduction ? It it's immigration, how does consolidating pax from part-filled flights into full ones have any impact, as the same numbers will come through.

[SealinkBF]

From the excellent Head for Points. Full article here: British Airways cuts 14% of Heathrow short-haul flights for July (headforpoints.com) (https://www.headforpoints.com/2022/07/07/heres-the-full-list-of-heathrow-gatwick-and-london-city-cancellations-for-july/)British Airways departures in July from London City (current plan vs mid-June plan):Amsterdam 118 to 84
Belfast City 65 to 57
Dublin 100 to 89
Dusseldorf 80 to 72
Edinburgh 170 to 162
Glasgow 127 to 122
British Airways departures in July from London Gatwick (current plan vs mid-June plan):Alicante 54 to 45
Amsterdam 83 to 60
Antalya 31 to 26
Athens 19 to 17
Bari 27 to 24
Berlin 31 to 28
Bordeaux 58 to 49
Cagliari 31 to 29
Catania 30 to 27
Dalaman 41 to 34
Dubrovnik 31 to 29
Faro 56 to 36
Ibiza 46 to 38
Lanzarote 31 to 28
Madrid 31 to 27
Mahon 31 to 27
Malaga 63 to 43
Malta 31 to 23
Milan 26 to 25
Nice 66 to 52
Palma de Mallorca 41 to 28
Tenerife South 35 to 29
Thessaloniki 17 to 14
Venice 34 to 28
Verona 31 to 23
British Airways departures in July from London Heathrow (current plan vs mid-June plan):Aberdeen 136 to 114
Amsterdam 196 to 158
Athens 161 to 141
Barcelona 177 to 157
Basel/Mulhouse 69 to 61
Belfast City 98 to 77
Berlin 158 to 134
Bologna 91 to 82
Brussels 89 to 72
Budapest 96 to 88
Corfu 74 to 73
Copenhagen 125 to 107
Dublin 132 to 112
Dusseldorf 81 to 64
Edinburgh 284 to 247
Faro 80 to 76
Frankfurt 123 to 98
Geneva 182 to 156
Gibraltar 62 to 61
Glasgow 251 to 228
Gothenburg 69 to 66
Hamburg 101 to 86
Hannover 48 to 42
Ibiza 86 to 83
Istanbul 84 to 81
Jersey 151 to 119
Larnaca 115 to 110
Lisbon 112 to 92
Lyon 75 to 70
Malaga 137 to 117
Manchester 163 to 136
Marseille 96 to 84
Milan Linate 103 to 97
Milan Malpensa 130 to 100
Munich 115 to 95
Naples 88 to 85
Newcastle 126 to 102
Nice 197 to 163
Palma de Mallorca 95 to 87
Paris CDG 190 to 158
Pisa 81 to 78
Prague 114 to 98
Rome 142 to 126
Stockholm Arlanda 110 to 93
Tirana 58 to 55
Toulouse 80 to 76
Valencia 59 to 54
Venice 115 to 105
Vienna 96 to 80
Warsaw 67 to 58
Zurich 104 to 89

[BA318]

Isn’t it a combination of things. BA are short of ground crew which is causing the baggage issues and the ground delays (nobody to operate jet bridges or pushbacks etc), they are short of cabin crew causing delayed/cancelled flights, there is an issue with some airports causing further delays (AMS, LHR) etc. By thinning these routes out there are fewer flights to need to service.

[DaveReidUK]

From the excellent Head for Points. Full article here: British Airways cuts 14% of Heathrow short-haul flights for July (headforpoints.com) (https://www.headforpoints.com/2022/07/07/heres-the-full-list-of-heathrow-gatwick-and-london-city-cancellations-for-july/)

Those amount to a reduction of just over 2,000 flights over the month, so that total (for July) obviously doesn't include yesterday's announcement re the 10,000 August-October reductions.

[SealinkBF]

Those amount to a reduction of just over 2,000 flights over the month, so that total (for July) obviously doesn't include yesterday's announcement re the 10,000 August-October reductions.

The article acknowledges that.

"We don’t have details of the August schedule yet. We do, however, thanks to the aeroroutes.com website (https://aeroroutes.com/eng/220704-bajul22lon) have the updated list of British Airways short haul service cuts for July 2022."

[DaveReidUK]

It would be reasonable to assume that the July route cuts aren't going to be reinstated between August and October, so those listed above should account for about 60% of the 10,000 Aug-Oct reductions.

It will be interesting to see how much of the remaining 40% will consist of additional cuts of the listed routes and how much will be on routes so far unaffected.

[PAXboy]

The Guardian
Threat of BA strike at Heathrow suspended after airline agrees pay deal

Unite union to ballot members on ‘vastly improved’ offer for check-in staff – while Jet2 announces 8% salary increases

[jdcg]

Advice please:
Our flight back from MUC to LHR on the 8th August has been cancelled. Replacement flights all leave too early in the day for us to get to.
We would happily swap to the evening flight coming back from NUE. But it appears to be impossible to do this viai the app and manage booking etc. Have tried calling but they're too busy and not accepting calls.
Any way of doing this without calling?
thank you:)

[BA318]

Advice please:
Our flight back from MUC to LHR on the 8th August has been cancelled. Replacement flights all leave too early in the day for us to get to.
We would happily swap to the evening flight coming back from NUE. But it appears to be impossible to do this viai the app and manage booking etc. Have tried calling but they're too busy and not accepting calls.
Any way of doing this without calling?
thank you:)

Nope. If you want to change the destination/origin you need to call. Flyertalk has advice on what are the ideal times/numbers to get through on.

[jdcg]

Nope. If you want to change the destination/origin you need to call. Flyertalk has advice on what are the ideal times/numbers to get through on.
Thank you. 8am this morning worked out fine 🙂

[Lordflasheart]

...
Does anyone please know the real reason why yesterday's BA115 - LHR to New York (9 July 2022) - ended up cancelled ?
All we can see this morning is - 'none yesterday - two today'
Asking for a hopping-mad friend who's phone is out of charge.

[davidjohnson6]

Any bets on whether BA's new route to Terceira (no, not Ponta Delgada, that's also a new route) in the Azores will last beyond 1 summer season ?
First flight was today... 75 pax out, 18 back on an A320. Fare are widely available currently of £92 out and £65 back...almost 4 hours on a weekend in peak season.

[DaveReidUK]

First flight was today... 75 pax out, 18 back on an A320.

It might be a little premature to attach too much significance to the loads on the first day of a new weekly service, particularly inbound.

[BA318]

Any bets on whether BA's new route to Terceira (no, not Ponta Delgada, that's also a new route) in the Azores will last beyond 1 summer season ?
First flight was today... 75 pax out, 18 back on an A320. Fare are widely available currently of £92 out and £65 back...almost 4 hours on a weekend in peak season.

Based on comments I’ve seen online I suspect BA are getting a nice payment from Azores Government to support these routes.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Islamabad has been dropped again? After the move to Gatters?

[Vokes55]

Islamabad has been dropped again? After the move to Gatters?

You sound surprised? ISB was never going to last past when the aircraft was required for something more worthwhile.

[Flightrider]

I thought it was something to do with fuel supply issues at ISB?

[Vokes55]

That may have been a convenient excuse for the initial temporary suspension, it sounds better than a shortage of cabin crew.

Long term it was never going to last. Painfully low yielding (was moved to Gatwick so it could use the highest density aircraft), not helped by the airspace closure in Russia and Afghanistan meaning it had to take a longer routing into stronger headwinds Westbound. Throw in security issues and high levels of crew sickness associated with it. This was a Covid route, finding use for aircraft whilst other markets remained closed. Now they have a better use for the aircraft, in this case the return of LGW-MCO in the winter, it didn’t stand a chance.

[SealinkBF]

British Airways named worst carrier for cancelled flights (travelmole.com) (https://www.travelmole.com/news/british-airways-named-worst-carrier-for-cancelled-flights/) British Airways was the worst-performer with a 3.5% of cancelling... a BA flight is 12 times more likely to be scrapped than best performing airline Ryanair.

London Stansted Airport cancelled only 0.3% of its scheduled flights, OAG said.

[stewyb]

British Airways named worst carrier for cancelled flights (travelmole.com) (https://www.travelmole.com/news/british-airways-named-worst-carrier-for-cancelled-flights/) British Airways was the worst-performer with a 3.5% of cancelling... a BA flight is 12 times more likely to be scrapped than best performing airline Ryanair.

London Stansted Airport cancelled only 0.3% of its scheduled flights, OAG said.

Many factors that make up these numbers and not all of BA’s making!

[WHBM]

Many factors that make up these numbers and not all of BA’s making!
There's a difference between "making" and "responsibility". Not of my Making sounds like a teenage schoolchild's excuse. Responsibility is what the carrier has to their fare paying passengers. It is their responsibility to schedule what every part of the structure can handle, and manage them, from fuel suppliers, their staffing, handling agents, etc, and also not to schedule up to some unattainable hilt so the forward sales figures look good at the board meeting when they are recognised as impossible to meet.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

You sound surprised? ISB was never going to last past when the aircraft was required for something more worthwhile.
I expected it to be dropped AFTER PIA returned, they had a chance to make some money in a high volume market screaming for capacity, not everyone wants one stop.

[Hartington]

I expected it to be dropped AFTER PIA returned, they had a chance to make some money in a high volume market screaming for capacity, not everyone wants one stop.

High volume and profit making are NOT the same thing.

[Vokes55]

I expected it to be dropped AFTER PIA returned, they had a chance to make some money in a high volume market screaming for capacity, not everyone wants one stop.

I’d hardly say screaming for capacity. The ME airlines have a lot of volume into Pakistan, across 7-8 different airports and the majority will go for the lowest fare to/from their local airport at both ends. It’s a low yielding route that was only ever going to last until a better use for the aircraft returned.

Just look at the configuration of the PIA 77Ws and you’ll learn everything you need to know about Pakistan yields.

In this case there was a better use for the 777 in MCO (or rather, a better use for the LHR-MCO aircraft that pushed the route back to LGW for the winter).

[CandyBender]

That may have been a convenient excuse for the initial temporary suspension, it sounds better than a shortage of cabin crew.

Long term it was never going to last. Painfully low yielding (was moved to Gatwick so it could use the highest density aircraft), not helped by the airspace closure in Russia and Afghanistan meaning it had to take a longer routing into stronger headwinds Westbound. Throw in security issues and high levels of crew sickness associated with it. This was a Covid route, finding use for aircraft whilst other markets remained closed. Now they have a better use for the aircraft, in this case the return of LGW-MCO in the winter, it didn’t stand a chance.

"High levels of crew sickness"?? It was always a popular trip when I was crew at BA.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

High volume and profit making are NOT the same thing.
Ah thanks, didn't know that....I'll write it down (!) #whoknew

OK my point was very badly articulated, my hypothesis was that with PIA's whole operation banned from the UK there would be sufficient traffic to make a single BA non stop rotation worthwhile. Now clearly someone closer to the data saw that hypothesis fail, I explained my point very badly, I apologise. It seems the move to Gatters and it's own feed from MAN didn't work out when balanced against the one stop options in market.

[nguba]

It was Virgin that launched Islamabad in response to COVID-19. BA returned to Islamabad in 2019. There was a government press release when the route was announced so there was evidently a lot of conversations at high levels about BA returning to Pakistan.

[PAXboy]

One branch of my family got caught by serious delays MAD-LHR on Friday 1st July.

They arrived at MAD 3.5hrs in advance but the queues were such that they had no time to get to the lounge.
At T5,they waited by the baggage belt for 2 hrs before being told that their two bags were lost. The bags arrived a few days later in two separate deliveries.

All this with their 7mth daughter. Fortunately, their daughter did not scream the place down (in either airport) but the wait for baggage was really tedious. Eventually Mum came out to where we were waiting in order to get to the car to feed her. BA agreed to pay the extra time the car was in the parking but - is there any redress?

Will BA just say, "The airport facilities are beyond our control?"
Any suggestions? Thanks.

[Trinity 09L]

So BA suspends ticket sales for domestic and European flights for a week.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62386909

i need to fly to Dublin, do I change to IAG partner EI, just load shifting? In July dumped by BA used Italair? Another flight from Barcelona BA use Iberia aircraft. Not a flag carrier anymore.

[WHBM]

So BA suspends ticket sales for domestic and European flights for a week.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62386909

i need to fly to Dublin, do I change to IAG partner EI, just load shifting?
London City is rolling along fine.

[VickersVicount]

London City is rolling along fine.
Albeit now swamped with all those needing short notice London trips.. good luck

[rog747]

BA domestic woes London Airport....

Apart from using LCY why not try SOU - they are offering a good and increasing choice of UK Domestic flights and to Eire and the C.I.
(and a great choice of BACF sunshine and leisure routes choice at weekends to France, Faro, Mykonos and Spain/Balearics. (also a BACF Edinburgh)

Only an hour on the train or less to SOU Parkway station from WATERLOO, Clapham Jctn and WOK.
3 minute walk to check-in or security - Check-in times no more than 1 hour or less.
Car Park is also superb and across the road from Terminal - Just off the M3 and M27.

[WHBM]

Albeit now swamped with all those needing short notice London trips.. good luck
Not my current experience.

[VickersVicount]

Not my current experience.
Peak surely still to come…

[davidjohnson6]

Has BA Euroflyer started flying pax commercially yet, or is there a date when this is expected to start ? Late March 2023 ?
AFAIK, BA Euroflyer hasn't started yet and there seems to be no clear date as to when it will start in a substantive way

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Aircraft are still on the mainline AOC and FD crews are using the BA/BAW "Speedbird" callsigns and IATA codes. Are the wheels in motion to even have a separate AOC or was it just a play to trash working conditions at BA LGW for 327th consecutive time to remain "competitive" whilst still tied to Waterworld's accounting procedures? Cabin Crew who have joined seem to be leaving in droves for greener grass elsewhere.

[nguba]

Schedule updates are currently being run for the winter season at Gatwick. GVA, LYS and SZG returning for the winter. AGP, AMS, DBV, NCE, RAK and VRN are extended into the winter as well.

[USERNAME_]

Cabin Crew who have joined seem to be leaving in droves for greener grass elsewhere.

And who can blame them. Lots of good friends there, operating upwards of 26 sectors a month for £1400, with a non existent management team who promote only their pals from Norwegian and are only heard from when they are dishing out overtime emails.

[ClearedToNowhere]

While I was moaning, a lot, EF, for flight crew at least, had stabilised significantly, my roster going forward doesn’t contain half as many consecutive 12+ hour duty duties. I feel like we are pushing in the right direction. Although with a new DFO joining from our wonderful pink and purple competitors I can only hope it doesn’t change, friends of mine over there don’t speak too highly.
I have to agree with the Cabin Crew however, they are where I believe the problem will lie, they are flocking out of the door, many just quitting flying all together, and they are being replaced by inexperienced crew who in turn leave when they realise there is no glamorous layover in Santorini and they have to clean the aircraft and come back. The salary is abysmal and isn’t exactly doing much in terms of retention. Things will have to change sharpish. But that’s just my two cents.

[vectisman]

Please see my schedule updates for BA Gatwick Long Haul and BA Euroflyer Gatwick Short Haul that I have posted on the Gatwick Thread. Information was gained from online timetable, analysts and airline sources.

Regarding BA Euroflyer, I do hope they can sort the cabin crew issues soon. In terms of flight operations the short haul operation from Gatwick has been very stable in recent weeks with no unplanned cancellations.

To be fair to BA recruitment it does say clearly in the job adverts that I have seen that BA Euroflyer is a point to point airline with crew returning to base each day, late evening, early morning etc... I totally agree the salary is a sticking point. However again that is clearly stated in the adverts. I am not defending just saying!
This is the same for Easyjet Gatwick based Cabin Crew (apart from a handful of overnight stays)

One possible solution could be to recreate the Gatwick Fleet again for Cabin crew. However, I doubt this is possible with two brands (Mainline and Euroflyer) operating from Gatwick. Just a thought. At least the crew would then have a wider range of destinations and possible stopovers.

For some cabin crew, especially those with families the idea of returning to base at the end of each shift appeals. I also believe part-time and seasonal patterns are offered which also suits some people. I spoke to a cabin crew member when flying to Cyprus earlier this summer with BA Euroflyer and it was for family reasons (the return to base) she returned to Gatwick to work for Euroflyer. Cabin crew are also entitled to discounted travel over the whole BA network. EEK! I am sounding like an apologist, sorry! I just think that people need to do their research and make sure they fully appreciate what is involved before applying. I still agree though that the salary needs to be looked at.

[MARKEYD]

BA are absolutely struggling with the new operation from LGW with cabin crew I am afraid to say !!

Most of the operation is being operated by LHR crew being bussed down to LGW , night in a hotel then operating 2/3 days of flights from LGW staying in a hotel at LGW then back up to LHR at the end of the trip

[vectisman]

BA are absolutely struggling with the new operation from LGW with crew I am afraid to say !!

Most of the operation is being operated by LHR crew being bussed down to LGW , night in a hotel then operating 2/3 days of flights from LGW staying in a hotel at LGW then back up to LHR at the end of the trip
Are you talking about Cabin Crew here?

[nguba]

BA brought in mixed short haul and long haul flying for cabin crew at Gatwick back in 2006, which was a precursor to Mixed Fleet at Heathrow. Now Gatwick has gone back to separate short and long haul cabin crew fleets...

[vectisman]

BA brought in mixed short haul and long haul flying for cabin crew at Gatwick back in 2006, which was a precursor to Mixed Fleet at Heathrow. Now Gatwick has gone back to separate short and long haul cabin crew fleets...
Yes absolutely. Personally I feel a return to something similar may be beneficial but difficult with the new set up.

[WHBM]

To be fair to BA recruitment it does say clearly in the job adverts that I have seen that BA Euroflyer is a point to point airline with crew returning to base each day, late evening, early morning etc..
Interesting that BA CityFlyer at London City is the opposite, they make extensive use of night stops, because that's what a significant part of their market is, business travel to London early morning, returning evening. The one hour time difference between UK and mainland Europe exacerbates this.

[Vokes55]

Yes absolutely. Personally I feel a return to something similar may be beneficial but difficult with the new set up.

It wouldn’t be beneficial for anybody, because then they’d lose many of the hundreds of new recruits joining this Autumn who signed up to do long haul only out of LGW, many of whom were ex Norwegian long haul and applied for the trips to Antigua, Costa Rica and Orlando, not night Alicante or early Dalaman.

If they’re struggling to retain crew, they need to pay them more, not change the working agreement of another fleet.