British Airways-2

[MANFAN]

Did I imagine it (hopefully) or read somewhere there were strikes by BA staff due in December?
After a Google search of "British Airways strikes" there is nothing I can see/find that has been released over the last month.
I live in France and due to fly back on 17th Dec to MAN via LHR...but at the moment there are very few flights between UK & France...I'm just hoping the situation can improve once both countries come out of their respective lockdowns next week.

[davidjohnson6]

It's Heathrow staff who are thinking of striking
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-54966331

[Dan Dare]

Not BA, but Heathrow. I don’t think there will be a lot of disruption, but what do I know.

sorry about the source:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/travel/13229355/heathrow-airport-strike-december-winter-holidays/

[PAXboy]

Time to clear the warehouse.
BBC: British Airways' big sell-off: Champagne flutes and trolleys (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55043907)

[lgwpave]

Dan Dare

If it involves the Airport Fire Service, as mentioned in BBC report, they would not be able to operate passenger flights.

[Navpi]

Fire sale


https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-55043907

[Jenny Tails]

I'm sustained company logos weren't blanked out as condition of sale/scrapping.

[davidjohnson6]

Anyone heard that Accra and Islamabad to move from Heathrow to Gatwick ?
Possible also that New York, Las Vegas, San Jose in Costa Rica and Lima to be cut from Gatwick

Not yet sure if this is definite though...

[englishcc]

ACC and ISB showing now ex LGW on BA.com

i also suspect that the new MAN LGW will be operated by a LHR crew that have nightstopped in MAN.

[Musket90]

Didn't BA fly LGW - ISB before via MAN in the late 80's or early 90's

[Albert Hall]

Yes, BA2119/2118 service which was an ex BCal 747-200 on LGW-MAN-ISB. The MAN stop was dropped and the route eventually moved to LHR before being suspended for security reasons. Both this and Accra at LGW are a throwback to years of old.

[Musket90]

Thanks Albert. Now you've mentioned the flight number I remember it as BA119 and BA118 without the preceding "2". Maybe in later years BA used the "2" prefix to distinguish between LHR and LGW schedules.

[TOM100]

What is the rationale behind this ? They can’t be short of slots at LHR ? Perhaps why the MAN 1 x daily too to link up with these flights. Seems a little odd but what do I know.....

[Flitefone]

...more likely slot sitting all those BA slots at LGW while IAG figures out how to use them longer term. The slot waiver will disappear at some point.

[TOM100]

I guess - but presumably they will also need slot sitters at LHR. I guess ISB and ACC are not the most competed direct routes and people will travel to LGW.

[AirportPlanner1]

Perhaps it’s easier to get third party takers for loaned slots at LHR than it is at LGW? Eastern, Loganair, Blue Air are getting the slots from somewhere.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Albert Hall

The lesson from loss making years of old was that when routes were moved to LGW, the front cabin stayed at LHR and flew with PIA et al. With PIA banned they are assuming that won't happen and Accra is a monopoly for now. Seems odd.

[SWBKCB]

Accra one of the old BCal West Africa routes?

[GAXLN]

Very odd indeed given that Virgin now fly LHR-ISB. As previously suggested perhaps trying to protect some LGW slots. I wonder if we will see a step up on UK domestic next summer from LHR to protect slots if the rules do change from those currently in place due COVID-19?

[inOban]

I would have thought that for the front cabin travelling from the West End LHR is easier. For the most of the wider public, Thameslink makes LGW easier. Whereabouts in London does the expat Ghanaian community live?

[GoEDI]

GAXLN

A rather anti-social 0535 EDI-LHR has already been added for S21. Presumably for just that reason. (slot sitting)

[Alteagod]

Oh dear is that for freight or post maybe and sell main deck for passengers. Thats very very early departure

[LTNman]

British Airways has permanently suspended a large number of long-haul routes in response to COVID-19.

https://londonairtravel.com/2020/12/16/british-airways-long-haul-route-suspensions/

[Dannyboy39]

Decimated schedule, but as the article says, appears to be a lot of marginal routes especially in the Americas. Surprised about some of the Asian routes, however they can’t keep operating empty flights indefinitely with governments refusing to reopen their borders. Some of these are really heavy routes although they are clearly trailing the ME3.

[wiggy]

Musket90

The 4 digit with a leading "2" format has long been the standard format for any BA Long Haul ( ? shorthaul) service into/out LGW.

[Navpi]

It looks like all flights are operating as normal this morning with British Airways from Heathrow.

BA have said they are not canceling any flights that were due to operate and it's up to UK government to ban passengers.

Somewhat awkward if you already have a ticket as you will probably lose your money if you dont fly. On the other hand if you do decide to take up the offer you might well be stuck at your destination.

Netherlands has banned air travel from the UK from midnight. If Spain, Greece, Italy, Portugal, Cyprus etc follows suit it could be an expensive Christmas for some.

[Riskybis]

I haven’t seen this thread start yet ?
while other airlines struggle BA have been given 2BN state aid by the UK Government

[Cloud1]

From a few banks I believe; also understand Wizz U.K. and Easyjet were given funds much earlier on. BA like Virgin were I understand told to strip back and only go to the government as a last resort. That’s what they have done

[TURIN]

Have you got a source for that? I've just been searching and can't find a single news item covering it.

Edit, Found this. https://www.businesstraveller.com/business-travel/2021/01/01/british-airways-secures-2-billion-loan-backed-by-uk-export-finance/

[SWBKCB]

So they haven't been given £2bn state aid, it's a commercial loan partially backed by govt guarantees
... :rolleyes:

[Riskybis]

Not sure why my first post got deleted ?
But looks like BA got a very secretive handout to the tune of 2BN

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.godsavethepoints.com/british-airways-2bn-loan-uk-government/

[SWBKCB]

It was moved to the BA thread in the "Airlines, Airports & Routes" forum - and it's not a handout.International Airlines Group has confirmed subsidiary British Airways has secured a state-backed £2 billion loan which it expects to draw down this month. The five-year loan – which can be repaid at any time on notice – has been underwritten by a syndicate of banks and “partially guaranteed” by UK Export Finance (UKEF).

https://www.businesstraveller.com/business-travel/2021/01/01/british-airways-secures-2-billion-loan-backed-by-uk-export-finance/

[Riskybis]

ah yes found it , thanks

[Barcli]

I thought they had the money in reserve " in the bank" as it were

[Northern Monkey]

I do think it is significant that it is, in large part, underwritten by UK Export Finance (ie the government). It would appear to be an acknowledgment of the importance of BA to the national interest in terms of the connectivity provided which in many cases is not duplicated.

It will be interesting to see if other companies are extended the same courtesy in the coming months.

[SWBKCB]

No - it's a standard process across all industrial sectors, if you meet the criteria, you are eligible.

[LGS6753]

"Underwritten by the Government" means that if the borrower (in this case BA) defaults, the Government will refund the lender. That's not state aid to the borrower.

[davidjohnson6]

It is state aid, if the Govt charges a lower fee for the guarantee, than a commercial (non-state) bank would charge.
It means that BA (or IAG) can borrow money from other lenders at a cheaper interest rate than they would achieve otherwise - a bank lender knows that whatever happens, the loan will still be repaid and thus the risk is significantly lower

If I have a good credit rating, a credit card issuer is more likely to offer me a credit card with a low interest rate; if I am a toerag with a string of CCJs to my name and a history of not paying the mortgage payment each month, I can expect a credit card issuer to take a somewhat different approach. The same principle applies to airlines - those which are very low risk are charged low interest rates on loans, while airlines perceived to be at greater risk have to pay high interest rates on loans. Right now, IAG is not a particularly good credit risk from a bank's perspective, particularly in the knowledge that 2020 was not a good year for them and they probably desperately need a loan to keep going

[LGS6753]

As usual, DJ6 is correct. There will be a beneficially lower interest rate.

[Downwind_Left]

But it still isn’t £2 Billion in state aid as alluded to above. It’s a loan. The state “aid” amounts to the government guarantee, the value of which will be the delta between the actual interest rate charged and what BA would have secured on a commercial loan. I would expect in actual fact that the government will make a profit on the loan over its lifetime.

This is very different to state aid to the likes of Lufthansa and AirFrance/KLM where the government ends up owning a chunk of the company.

[OldLurker]

Besides this loan, last September IAG did a Capital Increase (share issue) of 2.74 billion euros, of which Qatar Airways took its share; the rest was underwritten by three Big Banks - Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley and Deutsche Bank - and it was fully subscribed, very quickly (https://www.flightglobal.com/airlines/iag-receives-strong-response-to-recapitalisation-share-offer/140434.article). I guess none of those investors had much doubt as to IAG's credit-worthiness.

[southside bobby]

& now...

Tom Kerridge Sarnies...a Ploughman`s with Brie,apple chutney,radish & rocket as an example...

Order 12 hours before flying & delivered seatside...

[CabinCrewe]

and a free cup of water! Those expecting to just BOB spontaneously are going to be disappointed...
Hopefully solves the Gatwick leisure issues of them drinking and eating everything dry by row 5 on the outbound...

[globetrotter79]

How will the crew deliver it? Will pre orders be allocated by passenger name or by seat number?

i.e. If I pre order sarnies for all those in my group but don’t pay to pre allocate seats, will the BA system automatically end up seating us together (for free) in order to ease service delivery..?

[CabinCrewe]

No, sound like crew will just match loaded stock to the appropriate seat number and ‘chuck’ it out in a bag. groups/seat numbers inconsequential. Upgrades/rebooks/missed connections are what will cause issue

[ib26uk]

Is the A380 planned to return to service? specifically to operate the LHR-SIN route in the future? Aswell as the 777-300ER to operate the SIN-SYD service in the future?

[wub]

I have a booking for LHR -SIN in November and it it a 777

[GayFriendly]

I have read that the SIN-SYD sector is suspended until March.

I have heard rumours that it's not coming back at all.

[CabinCrewe]

I do not think that will be the case. Suspended...yes, canned... no.

[clipstone1]

SYD is I believe suspended until about October then returns on a B787-9 (seats are on sale for xmas)

[davidjohnson6]

BA franchisee Sun Air of Scandinavia have just put their German subsidiary into bankruptcy. Sun Air are operating no flights for 12 months - can they really survive ?

[The96er]

They're still running charters, so atleast they still have some cashflow into the business.

[Le Chiffre]

Anyone booking Sydney for Christmas is being wildly optimistic that they will be allowed to fly without prohibitive restrictions on both arrival in Aus and return to the UK.

I just don't see long-haul returning in any meaningful sense any time soon and it, sadly, may never return to 2019 levels.

It's going to take 2 years (perhaps longer) to 'sort' Coronavirus on a global level and then probably another 2 years before passenger confidence fully returns. Testing is not a solution - people won't book if the entire holiday hangs on a negative PCR test result, against the not insignificant chance of a false positive. And who wants to pay 5k for a holiday only to spend it treating other humans as a biohazard.

Mrs Le Chiffre works for a global blue chip and used to make regular trips to the States. The same operational and business 'effect' is now being delivered by MS Teams - and the company is saving 3 lots of round trips business class + hotels and expenses a year. Multiply this by the hundreds of employees in the same boat and, all of a sudden, they have a whopping saving on overheads.

BA are going to have to down-size and re-invent themselves with a focus on short and medium haul. This will almost certainly result in a further round of job losses or part-time / seasonal contracts (Easyjet have already gone down this route).

[ib26uk]

I should clarify... I have a big birthday in just under 3 years, I shall be 40 - My plan is to have a BIG holiday in Australia & New Zealand in 2024

I did sit down and look at the BA website and work out the flights I`d like to take - MAN-LHR / A319 - LHR-SIN / A380 - SIN-SYD / 773ER - I wrote them all down on a document on my laptop - I stupidly completely deleted that document with all my plans for Australia.

Looked to re-write that document and to find that LHR-SIN is now 787 with SIN-SYD on a 787 - Thats why I asked if BA would have the A380 on the SIN route and the 777-300ER on the SYD route

I apologise, I should have been much clearer from the start...

I`m booked to go to YYZ in 2021 - lets hope that goes ahead - But looking more doubtful by the day

[davidjohnson6]

If anyone tells you they know which aircraft type will be used by an airline that operates 2 or more potentially suitable type, on a specified route 3 years from now.... then they are a liar

[116d]

BA are intending to move their LHR-ACC service to LGW from late-March 2021. However, Ghana don't seem too happy with the plans and are threatening reciprocal action...

https://onemileatatime.com/ghana-threatens-british-airways-gatwick/

Are there any other airports in Ghana capable of handling a 777 loaded and fuelled to reach London? If the end result is BA withdrawing from ACC, it would obviously mean there are no more direct flights between the UK and Ghana.

[Aksai Oiler]

Sabre rattling, however, TML (DGLE) has a suitable runway in the north of Ghana, about 270 NM north of ACC. Whilst the runway may be ok, I can see the terminal having much in the way of facilities.

[brianj]

KLM must be looking forward to getting a lot of business if BAW downgrade to Gatwick!

Pre-COVID Gatwick had many connecting flights. Now things are completely different with the almost cessation of BAW short haul from Gatwick, Virgin exiting, demise of Norwegian and reduction in EasyJet flights. In fact this affects all BAW longhaul from Gatwick to a great extent.

Amsterdam is well placed to offer great onward connections for pax from Ghana. Could be a bad decision by BAW, compounded by replacing A350 With B772 on the route if they move it to Gatwick.

I am of course assuming the Accra route is profitable, if not then why continue. Gatwick will not improve profitability either.

[davidjohnson6]

How much of BA's London-Accra traffic connects to either a flight within the UK, or to a flight outside the UK ?

[TURIN]

brianj

Why is there a W added to BA? What does the W mean?

[D9009]

BAW is the callsign.

[TURIN]

Ok, thanks, what happened to 'Speedbird'?

[D9009]

It's still "Speedbird" BAW is the IATA code on the flightstrip

[TURIN]

Ah, I see, I think. Is this an ATC thing?

[D9009]

more of an IATA thing, it can actually confuse ATC eg; MSK used to be "bluestar" (Maersk when operating as a BA franchise)

[kcockayne]

Isn’t BAW an ICAO allocation ? & IATA code being BA.

[D9009]

yes, sorry I was thinking of airport 3 letter identifiers which are IATA, the callsign is ICAO

[Peter47]

For the uninitiated:

IATA (International Air Transport Association) airline codes have two letters (or a number & letter) whilst ICAO (International Civil Aviation Organisation) codes have three letters. BA needed a third letter for its ICAO code so BAW made sense. (BAL was Britannia.)

With airports IATA have three letters & ICAO four. Heathrow for example is LHR & EGLL The pilots on PPrune tend to use ICAO codes & SLFs like me IATA ones but you can always check them on the web.

[TURIN]

Thankyou for the explanation.
Just to be clear, when someone uses the expression BAW, it means BA?

[Gurnard]

Yes: we understand BAW means British Airways! :ok:

[SWBKCB]

International Airlines Group (IAG) said a loan and deal on deferred pension contributions had boosted BA's liquidity by £2.45bn as the industry burns through cash due to COVID-19 (https://news.sky.com/topic/covid-19-8518) restrictions.

Under the pension scheme agreement, worth £450m, the airline will pay no dividends to IAG before the end of 2023 in return for delaying deficit contributions due between October 2020 and September 2021.

https://news.sky.com/story/british-airways-boosts-cash-reserves-by-2-45bn-to-weather-covid-turbulence-12225535

[Ex Cargo Clown]

Bit annoying that. Got the NAPS email and thought to myself "didn't BA take a pension holiday in the '90s".

[PAXboy]

All corporations see Pension Plans as optional. The really should be laws about this. Pension is salary.

[LGS6753]

Ex Cargo Clown

Lots of companies did. Investments were strong, and pension funds then were not permitted to add to surpluses.

[TURIN]

Ex Cargo Clown

APS took the hit on that, not NAPS.

[biddedout]

In return for the payment delay, the NAPS trustees appear to have negotiated a charge over the East and West Maintenance areas. No idea what they are worth but it seems like a reasonable thing to do in the current dire circumstances and it will have been negotiated with a lot of legal / covenant advice and possibly with oversight from the Pension Regulator. I cannot see what else they could have done without risking the company.

[CabinCrewe]

Accra and Islamabad move to LGW is now off (as is the domestic LGW routes for now). Expect DOH to follow suit and all to remain at LHR

[Plastic787]

DOH is a different kettle of fish. I believe this is a OneWorld thing, Qatar will be doing the LHR to DOH on behalf of the alliance and, because Qatar have dropped LGW themselves, BA will thus take up the slack. I stand to be corrected but I believe this is the rationale here.

[Vokes55]

Qatar haven’t dropped LGW. Do you check anything you write before posting it?

[SWBKCB]

What flights do Qatar operate out of LGW? Can't find any for sale - all come up as BA flts

[brianj]

If you just go to the Qatar Airways booking site and search the date you want for flights, it will show you what flights are operated by British Airways. Quite simple really....

[SWBKCB]

That was my point - Qatar haven't dropped LGW, they're just not operating any flights from there and are using their alliance partner instead. Which is what Plastic787 said?? :confused:

[Dannyboy39]

So I get an email overnight from BAW saying that some Exec Club membership information has been compromised via SITA. Another data breach??

[davidjohnson6]

SITA was hacked - news about this has been dribbling out onto the web over the last few days. Affects multiple airlines - not just BA or OneWorld

[Vokes55]

Qatar haven’t dropped LGW, they’ve got a daily service planned for this Summer alongside the BA flight. It took 15 seconds to check that on the Qatar website. Quite simple really...

[SWBKCB]

OK - when I was doing dummy bookings last night, only the BA flights were coming up

[davidjohnson6]

There's various bits of gossip around the web in the last couple of days about using widebodies on shorthaul flights within Europe during the summer - eg to Greece
I can see a possible limited use case, but am dubious about this happening on a large scale

Any thoughts on here ?

[BA318]

It wouldn’t be that unusual. Remember they use to use the 767 to lots of European cities. 787s have also been used on flights to ZRH, ATH, LCA, STR, MAD, AMS during lockdowns (mainly for cargo but shows they have no issue if there’s money to be made).

It would also help keep the crew regular on the planes which can be important. If you’re going to do training flights why not earn some money at the same time.

[ETOPS]

Would need some type of alleviation under the Longhaul scheduling agreement. The LHR-CAI route was our shortest on the 747 but required a nightstop as opposed to a short haul style there and back.

[ELondonPax]

"Would need some type of alleviation under the Longhaul scheduling agreement."
That's interesting. So how did it work on the odd occasion that BA used a 747 for domestics, such as Heathrow to Edinburgh on days with major sporing event?

[spacedog]

ETOPS

Managed to operate the BA233 to DME on a daily basis without a night stop.

[ETOPS]

One offs like that were often flown by “the management “ thus getting round the agreements.
The company would absolutely love to tear up that part which would let them schedule things like Gatwick - Sharm night return etc. Just like a famous chap who wondered why Concorde crews couldn’t do a daylight bullet to JFK - it’s only 3 hours each way!!

[ETOPS]

To which you were welcome ;)

[spacedog]

Given that the company has just spent millions restructuring IFCE into one fleet. I think you will find that the company has the flexibility crew wise to deploy any aircraft on any route, the biggest headache will be the engineering cover down route.

[wiggy]

As I recall it the "Longhaul Agreement" didn't actually stop the use of Long haul types/crews being used on Short haul routes, and it doesn't generally demand crewing of such by management pilots..but it can generate cost issues.

Over the years I've operated the 747/744 and the T7 very very occasionally from London (both LHR and LGW) to the likes of Manchester and also Paris on day trips, but those only due to "force majeur". The Manchesters were down to lack of short haul airframes/crews and the Paris trips were associated with ATC strikes leading to slot and flow restrictions and the solution was to consolidate multiple narrow body services into one or two widebody flights.

OTOH in relatively recent years there was a long standing LHR-MAD-LHR day trip on the T7 fleet ( I think the 787 Fleet inherited it), and also the aforementioned DME on the 747 or the T7...those were very much pre-planned and published a month or more ahead of the operating dates in the appropriate bidpacks/bidinfo and therefore available for the line community to bid for.... or bid to avoid..:E

The "quirk" the long haul agreement did however throw up was (sometimes?) there was a requirement for the company to provide accommodation at base pre/post duty, can't remember the details..that not only quite understandably generates :rolleyes: within the short haul community it also costs the company money so I suspect that's where any alleviation might come into play.

[wesleyscott]

i remember just before lockdown (yes that was a thing) getting a 777 on more than one occasion from GLA to LHR in a morning and then back again last thing at night, this happened several times. Not sure if this was on purpose because it was never full

[CabinCrewe]

777 on that route not very common. One-offs once in a blue moon. Usually only for fog weather cancellations where services combined. The 763 of course was a regular on the route (and often full. Sadly missed.

[Mr Mac]

I seem to re call being parked next to a BA 747 in Moscow some years ago, which was heading back to LHR so not going onto the Far East which seemed quite a large A/C for the route.

[DaveReidUK]

CabinCrewe

AFAIK, no 777 has operated a morning GLA-LHR service (apart from positioning flights) for at least 10 years.

[davidjohnson6]

Mr Mac

Before February 2014, business/trade links between London and Moscow were a lot stronger than they are now... and companies in London like large banks fell over backwards to try to do business with Russia - which translated into strong demand for premium class seats

[GrahamK]

The BA233/232 was scheduled as a 744 for a few years

[wiggy]

davidjohnson6

As you say there was a lot of demand for the Premium product and it continued until quite recently.. 744s, 777s and then 787s continued to serve on the route (but as I recall it perhaps not on a daily basis) until the start of the Covid epidemic..

[CabinCrewe]

DaveReidUK

No I hadn’t thought so, but it was our correspondent who thought otherwise

[Dannyboy39]

Wouldn't be totally unusual on the sunshine routes. TUI very often used to operate the likes of the 787 to places like Mahon in the summer; Monarch back in the day used to operate the A330s down to places like PMI - both airlines operating these widebodies when their long haul winter routes were obviously not operating.

[Asturias56]

I can remember a Tristar LGW Alicante from a very small operator in the mid '90's

[clipstone1]

Peach Air?

[TURIN]

spacedog

True, BA closed a load of line maintenance bases a few years ago and farmed it out to various 3rd party MROs.
I'm sure there's plenty of currently furloughed LAEs who would be delighted with a few flying spanner away days. 😁

[Downwind_Left]

The main issue for BA here is the cabin configurations on their wide bodies are pretty premium heavy, which means that they really don’t have huge capacities. People going for Palma aren’t going to pay a huge premium for a flat bed, as they may do for a 12 hour flight to Singapore.

Even TUI normally remove the premium economy cabins from their dedicated short haul 787s for the summer, with other flights being operated between long haul rotations. But there is a huge difference in seat coats between an all economy layout for a wide body on short haul and one configured for long haul flights.

BA’s A320s seat a maximum of 177 or 180 passengers, and the A321s seat up to 218 or 220, obviously with big Club cabins those numbers reduce substantially.

In BA configuration the 787-8 seats only 194, with 60 being premium seats and 154 economy. The 787-9 has 89 premium seats and only 127 economy. Neither of those would justify the massive hike in operating costs on a short haul route. By comparison TUI’s 787-8 seats 300, or 325 without a premium cabin, and the 787-9 seats 345.

I think the only BA layout that could ever make sense would be the new 3 Class LGW 777... C32W48Y252. It’s likely that the Club cabin would stretch into WTP leaving 252 economy seats. But you’d have to weigh that capacity against the huge hike in fuel, handling, landing, ATC and crew costs, no point putting on a much bigger aircraft to fill it with £39 fares. In more recent years in Europe most airlines have preferred to send 2 narrowbodies for peak capacity rather than have the relative inflexibility of short haul widebodies that they will struggle to fill in winter.

[Asturias56]

clipstone1

can't remember but I think it was a Scandinavian outfit - and the 'plane was in an awful state inside.................

[Cuillin Hills]

I flew on a Swedish registered Air Ops A300B LGW to Dalaman about 1995.

[cavokblues]

Asturias56

Air Atlanta perhaps? They had a Tristar at Gatwick for Summer 1996 IIRC.

[AirportPlanner1]

There was a short-lived Irish registered Tristar operator called TBG I think and that one didn’t look in the best condition. And another one called something like Nordic European who were Scandinavian.

I flew Air Ops to Ibiza on a Tristar but that was in good condition at least internally, it was former Hawaiian and inside was untouched including Business. Some lucky so and so’s had a very luxurious ride

[Musket90]

I remember Air Ops and Peach Air Tristars at Gatwick in mid to late 90's. The Peach aircraft I believe were leased from Air Atlanta Iceland with Icelandic registrations. They also operated two B737-200s G-BAZH and G-BFVB which previously were Ambassador Airways and Britannia Airways. When Peach folded the Tristars were leased or acquired by Caledonian Airways.

The Air Ops Tristars and A300s were all Swedish registered. One of their Tristars I believe ended up with Caledonian Airways with the registration G-CEAP but was never re-painted to the Caledonian livery. Because of the registration It was always referred to as "going cheap". The aircraft ended it's days at Stansted for ground handling training and was ultimately scrapped there.

[Wycombe]

Flew back from ACE on one of the Air Atlanta ones. Loved the L1011 but that aircraft was a heap.

Flew out in G-CEAP which wasn't a lot better. I remember a delay to departure as the front hold door had to wound closed.

[sinbad73]

Air Ops Europe?

[TURIN]

Air Ops (Air Oops as we called them) had two or three Tristars in the 90s. When they went bust a couple of them were stranded at MAN for a long time. I think one had a major stab fault on takeoff when they got going again, did a quick circuit at about 500' and landed again!

[renfrew]

I notice that British Airways are not overflying Israel enroute to the Gulf and wonder if there is a reason?
The RAF and various European airlines are now using this route and I have recently noticed Emirates doing the same.
It is also quite a change to see you can now fly from TLV to DXB.

[BAladdy]

Saudi Arabia does not allow flights to overfly both Israel and Saudi Arabia on a route. They have granted only Air India so far rights to overfly Saudi Arabia between India and TLV and EY and EK between UAE and TLV for services destined for TLV only.

[renfrew]

Not sure about that,there may have been recent changes. .
An Austrian flight VIE-MLE has just crossed and I earlier noticed an EK from MAD-DXB.

[Imagegear]

Out of interest, how is it that BA have at least six aircraft, 777/787 in the air going both ways between KL and LHR as we speak, are they running some sort of shuttle service? Vaccine transport<?

[BA318]

Cargo flights. Not sure if it’s vaccines or just other cargo. I think before they were carrying PPE.

[Vokes55]

BA have been transporting large quantities of rubber from Bangkok. A lot of it stays onboard on arrival and goes onwards to motor production sites in the USA and Canada. Given that Malaysia is the world's third largest producer of natural rubber, I'd imagine these flights are related.

[ATNotts]

BA318

Judging only the country of origin on our PPE I'd say non-latex gloves and masks.

[Vokes55]

The aircraft went onwards to Halifax so it was rubber being transported from Malaysia for the automotive industry.

[SKOJB]

Is there any further news on BACF fleet renewal. They were discussing both the A220-100 and E190 E2?

[SWBKCB]

Would imagine they are discussing survival at the moment.

[nivsy]

Vokes55

Noticed that GLA has had a few BA 777 flights of late..I believe also from BKK. No idea if they had rubber on board...

[BA318]

The Glasgow flights are almost certainly PPE flights. I believe the others are too. https://cdfimages.photoshelter.com/image/I0000k0cPMz310RI

[Vokes55]

As I’ve said twice, the recent additional BKK and KUL flights are transporting materials for the automotive industry in North America. All of these aircraft go straight on to GSP, ATL, YHZ or ORD. The occasional GLA flights are separate, as are the BKK/KUL flights with the usual (old) flight numbers.

There’s very little PPE being brought in these days, most of the COVID related cargo from the Far East is things like testing kits. There isn’t a PPE shortage any more so it’s not urgent enough to be carried by air on mass.

[inOban]

I'm puzzled. I wouldn't have thought that rubber wasn't the sort of high value commodity that would justify air freight. And isn't it shorter from BKK to most of the US flying East?

[Vokes55]

I’m far from an expert, but there is a global shortage of natural rubber which has pushed the commodity price up over 70% in the last year. Given it’s importance to the automotive industry, if it’s needed urgently in the USA then it needs to be shipped by air.

Supply chains across the entire automotive industry have been hugely disrupted since the start of the pandemic, exacerbated by vast peaks and troughs in demand across different parts of the world. For airlines like BA and TUI, it’s been valuable revenue at a time when fleets would be more or less grounded.

Some meat to the bone:

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20210308-rubber-the-wonder-material-we-are-running-out-of

https://www.reuters.com/article/asia-rubber-idUSL4N2HE0BD

[inOban]

Thanks for that. Still doesn't explain why they fly west rather than east.

[DaveReidUK]

Do we have any evidence that direct flights from BKK/KUL to the US go west ?

[El Bunto]

For anything in the Midwest and farther east, it's shorter over the top.

[Vokes55]

Because BA are based at LHR. If it wasn’t going to work for them, they wouldn’t have bid for the work.

Geographically, flying North is the most direct routing. A direct flight isn’t possible due to the Himalayas, and ULH cargo isn’t feasible as it would be load constrained. Flying via ANC would add another 500-600NM of ground distance, and whilst it would probably result in a slightly more efficient routing once winds are accounted for, it’s so marginal that it would be outweighed by the benefits of flying via LHR - crewing flexibility, engineering on site, no requirement to position crew to/from ANC, route unfamiliarity (oxygen escape routes over Russia, Alaska etc), overflight permits etc.

[hayessteph]

In August 2019, BA was forced to cancel many flights at three London airports due to a software glitch. In 2017 there was a severe software failure. According to the FT, senior software engineers had been let go, and systems had been outsourced to Tata Consultancy Services in 2016, though it was said that they were not responsible for the crashes. BA has dozens of old legacy systems. And at the same time there is conflicting pressure to provide new capabilities and features. It was said in the FT that BA's old legacy systems are very hard to migrate off. Low cost carriers like easyJet, it was said, have simpler systems that can offer better customer services and maximise revenue.

I'm SLF and not IT, but it occurs to me that the last year will have been an ideal time for BA to have been updating its old legacy IT systems, and install and test updates, to reduce the possibility of future software crashes like those in the recent past. Does anyone know if BA has been doing this?

[anxiao]

I would have thought that a year in which your revenue has been reduced 90% is probably not the year that you spend money on software upgrades.

Every department will have been on minimal budgets, including IT.

But maybe I am wrong...

[PAXboy]

From my observations, BA only spend money on their IT when forced. The board seems unaware that, without IT, they do not exist. Its a standard 20th Century point of view.

[Alteagod]

BA have indeed updated IT to the latest 20th Century state of the art msdos systems lol

[ajamieson]

anxiao

On the contrary, a vastly-reduced schedule would seem the ideal time to install and test new systems; certainly, it would be preferrable suffering a(nother) meltdown over a summer bank holiday weekend.

[nuisance79]

not happening im afraid. Airline IT System migrations take months (somtimes years) of planing, they are often interlinked with other systems and are expensive.

Little chance of the Board signing anything off on this scale in 2021

[bycrewlgw]

but as you’ve said, years of planning so maybe the budget had already been signed off on and the project allowed to proceed. They could be in the final stages where it would cost more to stop the roll out than not. 👍🏻

[TURIN]

We got our Win7 PCs replaced with Win 10 last week. Does that count? 😁

[crewmeal]

He's not fat off the mark.
(courtesy of Simply Flying)

Qatar Airways CEO Likens British Airways To A Low Cost Carrier (https://simpleflying.com/qatar-airways-ceo-ba/)

[kcockayne]

You CAN’T say that !

[Superpilot]

When you practically own the oil supply and pay your cabin crew a grand a month, yes you can offer 5* for the price of 2!

[Asturias56]

crewmeal

On UK & European routes that's what they've been for the last 10 years - and the business about the food was pretty much the final straw

[TURIN]

It's that bad QR have invested millions in BA. Al Baker being Al Baker. Nothing to see here, move along.

[nguba]

Have BA and IAG made mistakes? Undoubtedly, but his comments about premium economy show how seriously they should be taken.

It would be an interesting counter-factual as to how the BA of 10 or 20 years ago would have survived this pandemic thus far.

I suspect the stage where the Government had to step in and take an equity stake would have long passed.

[Asturias56]

AL Baker loves the sound of his own voice - he makes some good points but he is a bit full of himself

[davidjohnson6]

When Air Arabia, IndiGo or Wizz start flying to dozens of airports from Doha.... then Al Baker might have a different viewpoint

[Asturias56]

Superpilot

Don't BA CC salaries start at around £1500 a month? Not a vast difference in the whole picture?

[TCX69]

British Airways has today announced four new short-haul routes to Wroclaw (WRO) and Gdansk (GDN) in Poland, Riga (RIX) in Latvia and Cluj-Napoca (CLJ) in Romania.

01JUL-26SEP
BA522 LHR0735 – WRO1045 Thu/Sun 32S
BA523 WRO1135 – LHR1245 Thu/Sun 32S

02JUL-26SEP
BA532 LHR1600 – GDN1910 Wed/Fri/Sun 32S
BA533 GDN2000 – LHR2115 Wed/Fri/Sun 32S

02JUL-26SEP
BA380 LHR1500 – RIX1940 Wed/Fri/Sun 32S
BA381 RIX2030 – LHR2115 Wed/Fri/Sun 32S

02JUL-26SEP
BA536 LHR0700 – CLJ1150 Wed/Fri/Sun 32S
BA537 CLJ1240 – LHR1340 Wed/Fri/Sun 32S

[davidjohnson6]

Does somebody at BA perhaps have advance info about which countries will be green, amber or red ?
Alternatively, is this aimed solely at the VFR and migrant labour market with the assumption that quarantine is a less relevant factor ?

[Flightrider]

Flight numbers above aren't correct. Riga is BA379/380, Gdansk is BA532/533, Cluj BA536/537 and Wroclaw 522/523.

[772]

davidjohnson6

the latter I would wager

[SWBKCB]

There are seperate quarantine processes for seasonal agricultural workers living on farm.

[TCX69]

Flightrider

Changed. RIX is BA380/1.

[Dannyboy39]

Good luck beating WZZ on their own patch.

[davidjohnson6]

There are plenty of Poles in the UK who economically have done reasonably well for themselves. If 18 months ago you had walked around Canary Wharf at lunchtime, you would have seen quite a few suits with accents from eastern Europe.
Those that have money may well decide that they don't want the experience that is Luton and Wizz but still want a direct flight

[BA318]

Yep. It’s a long time since those countries joined the EU now. Many of the first wave of migrants are now very integrated, with good jobs, homes and families. BA has done well with its Kraków service so I guess they are hoping for similar.

[Alteagod]

The big advantage BA have is onward connections and through tickets via LHR for inbound passengers but yes agree on point to point traffic good luck up against Wizz etc

[AirportPlanner1]

Something people often overlook is Poland and Romania are both fast growing economies, far outstripping the UK. All of these are good tourist destinations, Gdańsk and Riga are already established but Cluj in particular has a lot to offer both in the city and as gateway to Transylvania

[Vokes55]

Not sure it’s anything more than finding places to fly their aircraft whilst business travel remains lower than pre-pandemic. VFR will rebound fairly quickly.

There are plenty of successful Eastern European people in this country, but my experience (I’m married to one) is that no matter how much they’re earning, they’ll always take the cheapest flight home, never pay to take a bag and will make their own sandwiches to take onboard. I don’t think many will be paying a surplus to avoid Wizz or Ryanair.

That said, they’re all fantastic cities to visit and it’s nice to see BA thinking outside the box.

[Dannyboy39]

I’m also surprised BAW haven’t picked up something like VNO in addition to RIX. A handful of flights a week isn’t going to make much of a dent in terms of connectivity, but as you say these Eastern and Baltic states have had a real growth spurt in recent years. WZZ constantly packs out a twice daily A321 ex LTN but only THY and DLH are the network carriers with feed there.

[BA318]

LOT continued flying LCY-VNO for a lot of the pandemic. E190 subsidised route. Maybe not worth going up against them and the low costs.

[nguba]

hayessteph

ba.com has been taken down overnight again for maintenance, which didn't happen before COVID-19.

[DaveReidUK]

Let's hope it was just maintenance ...

[PAXboy]

Unfortunately, BA has spent some years not learning from their IT mistakes. Like many legacy companies, the cost and risk of migrating from old systems to new is, now, so great and the risk so high - that most continue to patch up and hope it all keeps working.

I don't know who to credit with this sketch - but it sure is true.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/385x489/dependency_6a6b91b40051033bd81d43ef17e8f4f8bef0b440.png

[kar42]

Always happy to give credit to Randall Munroe https://xkcd.com/2347/

[PAXboy]

Thanks for that kar42. Credit noted in my copy of it. I worked in telecommunications and IT for 27 years and have friends still in that game. This cartoon applies to many, many place and installations. A project I did in 2002 for an oil trading company: They were very anxious about maintaining their online access through most of the installation process. So we identified the key components and found that the single device on which it all relied was supplied by a plug-top power supply. This little transformer was placed UNDER the raised floor in the equipment room so that no one knew where it was. It was not labelled. The DC power lead from it to the device was the usual thin cable and, where it entered into the device - it was not tied down. Thus any casual work taking place in the same cabinet could have accidentally ripped the little plug out of the back and they would have been stranded.

[SealinkBF]

I read somewhere that most legacy airlines IT systems are as good as can support the most basic installation - which for the likes of BA can be in places with really poor telecoms so the IT is similarly basic.

[Hartington]

Going back to the new routes I've always understood that BA has multiple market segmentations. The obvious one is business versus tourists/VFR. But much of their network these days is based on connecting traffic through LHR. Therefore my question is how much will these new flights simply be passengers travelling to London and back (or London to ... and back) but how much of the traffic will be using LHR for transit. I'd also be interested to know where that transit traffic originates - Europe outbound or rest of the world? There's a Polish dispora in North America and, a bit like people in Manchester not wanting to travel via LHR how muny Poles would want to avoid WAW?

[Asturias56]

There are a lot of quite big cities in Europe that have no or very few N American connections. Same goes with most of Africa. Used to be the Mid East as well but they're now taken care of. Many national airlines will fly you to New York but as we all know that 's just the start of your problems.

[wiggy]

Hartington

Our major nearby major French city typifies the case Asturias is making - one of the biggest cities in the country, a major aviation/tech hub, but nil flights direct toNorth America.

BA picked up a lot of States bound business from that city from people who chose not to transfer in Paris.

[Hartington]

Which is pecisely why I'm questioning the discussion. BA won't be in competition with Wizz and their ilk for local traffic (They'll sell a few local seats when it suits them though!).

[PAXboy]

SealinkBF

It has varied over the years. True the end user device needs to be as simple as possible. Nowadays, PCs are so cheap it easier to use them - but they are not processing much data, being a terminal.

The key is that 'every system has complexity' it depends where that complexity lies. A good example is that of the desktop computer. The PC route places a lot of the complexity with the end user, or the person who is maintaining it - thus they are cheaper. Apple decided that they would handle the complexity - so their devices are easier for end users as they are all designed to fit together (intially in hardware now in software) and so they are more expensive. {They are more expensive for other reasons too!} Up until some 30 years ago, the domestic motor car placed the complexity on the end user. A 'manual choke' and other such have all been swept away and the complexity now lies in it's computer and the end user just presses the Start button - irrespective of the outside temperature, etc.

Airlines have a serious problem of complexity and their back office 'main frames' as they were called, have to deal with incredible demands and many systems are linked so that long term planning, short term scheduling, right down to bar snacks can happen. There are all the separate systems for collecting route data for each and every flight and maintenance that feeds back into the schedule and availability of each air frame.

In many companies (I am suggesting many large companies) that central complexity has not kept up to date with new software platforms. The costs and risks of moving to a new platform are HUGE - but so is just patching up the old, as BA has learnt. I am well aware of the enormity of the problem that BA faces, as well as the rest of the IAG group. But, if they create a good system, they can duplicate it for all the companies. It is IAG who have to fix this, not BA alone.

Many companies around the world think of themselves as, say, making and selling a range of canned goods but, actually they are not. They are an IT company that makes and sells a range of canned goods. BA is an IT company that provides aircraft seats.

It is this reversal of technology across the last 30/40 years that has allowed a well known online shopping company to become top of the tree. They are an IT company that started off selling books and then sold almost everything else. Observing BA and their IT failures of the last decades, I conclude that they have not yet learnt this.

I will now sit down to be corrected!

[Hartington]

Airlines like BA have several significant problems when it comes to IT. First is that the underlying reservations systems were built when the only way to get the throughtput required was a mainframe. Even then, they used 7-bit ASCII which limited them to upper case and a small number of "special characters" (asterisks, dashes etc). They have managed to create XML based interfaces which is how web presentation occurs. What you don't see is quite how those XML interfaces work. You fill in a form and the result is an XML message. The recieving system(s) then have to complete several separate transactions to be able to send back the necessary response.

Reservations then require fares. Here the news is better in that the fare systems have largely migrated away from mainframes. However, distribution of fares between systems (so that airlines can sell interline tickets even within alliancs) remains batch based via people like SITA and ATPCO.

Ticketing has obviously evolved. In my lifetime we've gone from handwritten via printed to ATB to electronic but it's not all good news. Back in the days of handwritten you could string as many tickets together (ticekts had/have a maximum of 4 coupons/flight) to create a multi stop journey as you wanted. The trade press occasionally had pictures of travel agents with "daisy chains" of tickets strung across their office. These days the maximum number of coupons on an electronic ticket? 16 - Sixteen.

If we go back to the ATB we see another poroblem the airlines face - other airlines. As I said, tickets had/have 4 coupons per ticket number. But the ATB theoretically could handle 99 coupons and one major European airline built their system to take advantage of that. Every other airline had a problem. Why? Because the accounting systems assumed that no ticket number could be associated with more than 4 coupons.

Sticking with the "other airlines" theme they need to communicate with one another. Message formats need to be agreed across the industry (yes, you can have some bilateral agreements). One of my first ever IATA meetings was an annual affair. Because of some particular issues they decided to hold two meetings a year instead! Getting all the delegates together in one place at the same time isn't easy, yes the delegates probably travel on free staff tickets but IATA rules say the meetings have to rotate around the world so an airline that can easily send delegates to Geneva may have a problem getting to SIngapore simply because the planes are sull and staff travel is embargoed.

Departure Control Systems (DCS) (check in) are another area where issues arise. When electronic tickets appeared the DCS needed to be able to access the ticket database to check the passenger had paid and to mark the ticket coupon as used. But what happens if the flight then "goes tech" and the ticket needs to be reissued because the passenger has to get a connection to get to destination? You need to mark the coupon unused then go to reservations, make the new booking, then create a new ticket "in exchange" for the original, write a new ticket record, mark the original coupon used (again) and potentially another airline has to be able to access that ticket for the new connection.

Bottom line. There are multiple, interconnected systems, Changing one probably requires co-ordinated changes to at least one, and often several, other system.

[PAXboy]

Thanks Hartingon for a superb setting out of the problem. The new problem is that, post Covid losses, no airline has the money to start the process, leave alone for concerted effort across the globe to make new standards. The first step would be for IATA to start the process of agreeing standards (which takes years) so as to be ready when the money is.

[Asturias56]

excellent post Hartington

I'd also suspect that a legacy airline like BA has bits of software still operating that date back to the 1960's

I know of a large financial services outfit that found all sort of little programs beavering away that were at least 50 years old - all beautifully short, doing the small jobs perfectly 24/7 - but undocumented and unknown - until they decided to upgrade

[Hartington]

Paxboy, IATA will argue they are already developing new standards. However, the NDC (https://www.iata.org/en/programs/airline-distribution/ndc/#tab-3) program has been running since 2012 and the idea was around for a while before that!

[thetimesreader84]

Asturias56

The software that BA uses for tracking aircraft, crew, sourcing weather info, logging departures etc (FICO) was introduced in the 70s and is still a key part of the operation today.

Allegedly (and I can’t find any evidence for this other than rumour & hearsay) it’s a derivative of British Rail’s TOPS system, which itself dates to the 60s.

[PAXboy]

A friend of mine who is a high level software development manger still finds companies who say they want to progress their applications into the new generation of softare, so as to gain the obvious economies of lower cost and greater reliability. They start off saying that they want to do the migration in 18 months and maintain the old system till complete. He worked for one company who, after three years still could not let go of the old COBOL system, so he left.

Countless mangers of even small, easily understood, companies - do not know the importance of migrating to new platforms and making things simpler. For international corporates - it is the greatest challenge that they cannot grasp. As I said, I do feel sorry for them because, as Hartington so ably illustrates, the complexity and inter-working is fearsome.

[Jerbourg]

They are obviously hoping to cash in on the staycation 'boom', fingers crossed the routes a success & they stay on longer than September From London City Guernsey – launching on 25th June, two flights per week on Monday and Friday From Edinburgh Guernsey – launching on 25th June, two flights per week on Monday and Friday.

[Hartington]

If FICO came from TOPS, TOPS came from the Southern Pacific in the USA!

[DaveReidUK]

FICO = "Flight Information & Control of Operations", IIRC.

Terminals with jazzy multicoloured keyboards.

[guern123]

Cityflyer to GCI Hmmmmm ?? Not sure if this will even get off the ground. Who's going to handle them, only ground handling agents are Aurigny who will surly charge them a fortune seeing as they will be in competition with them on London routes. And with no end in sight to unrestricted travel to Guernsey who would actually book flights at the moment to the island

[The96er]

A somewhat negative response. Almost as if you have a vested interest in GR and would not welcome the competition.

[Wycombe]

AUR are effectively owned and bankrolled by the States Govt, so if they want BACF to bring pax to the island then they will surely have to provide the required services (and at a price that makes it viable)

[cavokblues]

In the current environment with staycations being more popular than ever this year surely it is more beneficial to Guernsey to have as many people as possible visiting their island this summer and boosting the coffers? It would be a bit Nose Spite Face IMO to charge extortionate fees to BACF for this summer. I doubt they will be back when normal times return!

[Alteagod]

All these we niche routes could turn into real money spinners as people discover alternatives to the mainstream normal destinations

[kcockayne]

This is a low frequency, short season operation. I am sure all airlines are looking for opportunities to develop routes & get back towards profitability, once this pandemic ends. This development is all part of BAW's attempt to achieve this. I wish it well & very much hope that they will achieve their aim. They may make money on these routes , but not a lot. Apart from operating the services, there needs to be a big expansion of holiday accommodation in Guernsey in order to satisfy possible tourist demand during the period that "staycations" are in demand; however long that may be. Guernsey cannot afford to turn business away for whatever reason.

[Asturias56]

"there needs to be a big expansion of holiday accommodation in Guernsey i"

and how is that a going to happen - they can't build anything new in the time so you're dependent on people opening up their houses etc

[kcockayne]

Exactly ! That is the point that I was making. If Guernsey wants to expand the number of visitors that it gets, then it has to provide somewhere for them to stay. Otherwise, all the new routes that might be operated, will not result in appreciable increases & profits for the airlines that operate them. The same applies to Jersey; with the slight exception that there are an extra 45,000 island residents to serve, too.

[Wycombe]

On my visits to Guernsey in recent years, cabbies would always point out the hotels that have closed down. I think there's only a fraction of the hotel beds on the island that there were in the 70's and 80's.

[Hartington]

This announcment has appeared in several places. Can someone explain the last paragraph to me?

"British Airways is beefing up its short haul schedules to European sunshine hotspots with nearly 100,000 extra seats for summer.

More than 93,000 new seats are up for grabs on flights from Tuesday 11 May to 13 summer destinations.

It includes 10 Greek holiday hotspots, two destinations in the Canary Islands and one in Turkey.

It is due to overwhelming interest shown in summer holidays .

The new services are for June and July onwards, in response to interest as more destinations are likely added to the green list for quarantine-free travel.

The 26 additional weekly frequencies will include Corfu, Kos, Paphos, Rhodes, Lanzarote, Tenerife and Bodrum.

The newly established flights to Greece and the Canary Islands are available to book now for travel between 21 June and 5 September over the peak summer period.

Bodrum in Turkey will also be available to fly to from 18 July.

Neil Chernoff, British Airways' Director of Networks and Alliances said: "It's clear Britons are hoping that their favourite destinations will be open by the time summer comes. We want to provide them with access to book seats and trust that if they can't travel, we will be there for them with flexibility to make changes to their bookings."

British Airways is currently flying to 27 short-haul destinations, including 112 holiday hotspots for the peak summer period."

[tictack67]

"British Airways is currently flying to 27 short-haul destinations, including 112 holiday hotspots for the peak summer period"

27 Airports serving 112 resorts

[FredFlintstone]

So fortress LHR not working anymore ?

[772]

If the current weather pattern in the UK persists for much of the summer (and most of the world continues to be in a good place with covid) then I would suspect a strong 2022, one expensive staycation in the rain may be enough for most brits.

[BA318]

FredFlintstone

Did you miss the global pandemic and subsequent travel restrictions? It doesn’t matter where your hub is if your Government bans most forms of travel you’re not going to be operating many flights.

[Alteagod]

What pandemic. I have been watching QVC lol

[PAXboy]

British Airways cabin crew ‘not turning up for flights to India’ amid world record-breaking coronavirus spike (https://uk.news.yahoo.com/british-airways-cabin-crew-not-104639041.html)

[jmdavies86]

The Competition and Markets Authority (CMA) has today opened enforcement cases into both British Airways (BA) and Ryanair (FR) after they conducted investigations back in December 2020 following reports that consumers were being denied refunds for flights that they could not legally take.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/cma-launches-action-against-british-airways-and-ryanair-over-refunds?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=govuk-notifications&utm_source=f942bc75-26f4-4b07-ae11-b5ac799d63a7&utm_content=daily

As the article states, it should not be assumed at this stage that any of the airlines have breached the law as it is only a court that can decide whether such a breach has occurred.

[oxenos]

It seems British Airways plans to enter the low cost market. What could possibly go wrong? Anyone remember "GO" ?

[3wheels]

I thought BA was on most people’s “No Fly List”.

If not it should be.

[Unterwegs]

In my experience BA already is a low cost carrier charging sometimes insanely high fares experially for their mediocre First and Business product. If they go lower cost they would be getting dangerously close to a No Cost airline....

[AirUK]

I don’t see how it can get any worse than their current EuroTraveller offering… buy-on-board sandwiches, over-priced drinks and hard seats with no legroom. I’m surprised ‘High Life’ is still free to be honest.

There was a time when I thought the ‘All Day Deli’ nose bag was a poor show vs the traditional meal trays that preceded them, but how I long for even those days now.

It’s already just another low cost airline, they just want an excuse to take advantage of desperate unemployed pilots whilst they can - I bet the fares don’t get any cheaper though!

[Rug]

oxenos

Not quite sure what you're getting at here. BA didn't seem to quite crack the formula with GO but selling it has been viewed in some quarters as a commercial mistake - GO became a success and then merged into easyJet while they, and the LCC sector in general, have gone from strength to strength since. BA has tried to compete to the detriment of their brand and reputation over the past few years so perhaps establishing an LCC will allow them to focus on the full service market once again.

QF, SQ, JAL, ANA, LH etc have all shown that legacy carriers can accommodate LCC in their group of companies so it could well be argued that BA are coming to the party rather late.

[Dannyboy39]

Unterwegs

As I say a few pages up, just lower the prices and call it BA, jobs a good’en.

Signing Cruz as the CEO has to be one of the biggest corporate mistakes in the company’s history. He relegated the airline to a tier 2 level of service, although it could be argued that it was already headed that way.

[vectisman]

Anti BA bashers out and about I see. You need to read the Gatwick thread to get up to date about recent BA plans.

[speedrestriction]

Regarding legacies running locos it is worth pointing out that for Lufthansa at least, it is done at great cost. Mainline subsidises Eurowings to the tune of hundreds of millions.

[Jamesair1]

The IAG group already has Vueling in Spain, which is a LCC so there is some corporate experience (good or bad) to call on.

[El Grifo]

Glad to hear this !
At the height of the pandemic, I was booked on 2 legs with Iberia to the UK with an overnight stay near T5.
I was supposed to then fly to LA.
All access at the time to the US became legally forbidden.
BA refused to consider a refund as the flight still might run
I was expected to fly the other legs, stay overnight and turn up for a flight that I was not legally entitled to take !!
Only IF the flight was cancelled by BA was there a chance of any refund !

[BA318]

In BA's credit they issued vouchers which you could apply for to protect the value of your ticket. Lots of carriers didn't refund and in many places people are still fighting to get some credit or money back.

[El Grifo]

Fact B318 !
For various reasons, one being particularly critical, a voucher was of no value to me (us) unfortunately !

[BA318]

Few airlines offer refunds if you can’t meet the requirements to travel. It’s your job to meet them when you book a flight (granted the circumstances changed) but BA did offer a voucher as I said. It’s better than nothing which a lot of carriers - particularly outside Europe did.

[El Grifo]

I, (we) were perfectly able to travel.
BA would have been unable to board us or risk being penalised on arrival in the US.
We would not have been allowed to board after travelling on two previous legs and overnighting at Heathrow.
Both Iberia and the Hotel refunded us within weeks !
If they could do it, why not BA ?

[PAXboy]

BA discovered, along with the rest of the airline world, that not enough people will pay the price. Over the last 30 years pricing in numerous areas of commerce has moved to the pricing formula of a certain well known LCC. People have decided that they want the headline price to be low and might then pay for extras. This has been tested many times, one simple example is motor cars. The low priced threshold of a lease got people to take new cars which, ultimately, cost them more.

BA, along with the rest of the legacy carriers, cannot readily be two carriers. The example of LH and Eurowings is instructive. However, this combination of Legacy and LCC will continue in one form or another.

Each and every purchase, be it a car or a plane ticket or a take away meal, is decided upon at the time at the price on offer.

[TURIN]

BA have nearly 20,000 staff on Furlough. The scheme will finish at the end of September.
Redundancies, unpaid leave, part time? Take your pick but its going to hurt a lot of people.

[sergy2k]

Assuming BA eventually return to LGW for the Summer schedule next year, what will they do with the Routes where they've used LHR A21N for the additional (assumed) capacity? Naples springs to mind, since it's been LHR operated, they've used A21N a few times a week whereas out of Gatwick they've only been able to operate the max size aircraft based (A320)

[CabinCrewe]

By looks of it, could be a dangerous assumption.

[DomyDom]

Hi, can anyone please tell me if BA are starting MAN-LGW flights again and if so when will they start?

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

The main (only) reason for MAN-LGW is to feed the Pakistan bound long hauls from the local diaspora, and as soon as PIA come off the banned list I suspect it will be binned again. There's no based short haul at LGW this winter so only option is a W routing with a LHR based aircraft.

[willy wombat]

I'm quite surprised EZY have never had a stab at LGW MAN. There is a local market and it's a handy short sector to slot in.

[Flightrider]

BA planning 1 x daily morning MAN-LGW this winter and it is indeed using an LHR-based aircraft. Aircraft works its way north on the BA1388, does BA2509/2510 MAN-LGW-MAN early the next morning then flies the BA1389 south at 1035. The regular LHR nightstopper is the BA1402/BA1371.

[Hartington]

El Grifo - How many tickets did you have? Were the BA and IB flights on separate tickets?

[DomyDom]

Thanks Flightrider 👍

[DomyDom]

willy wombat

I agree. I would have thought it would have been profitable but I guess with EZY services expanding significantly at MAN in recent years as well as LGW, not as profitable as other routes. Hopefully the BA route will be a success with feeder traffic for BA/EI services at both airports.

[flyerguy]

Not sure if it’s been mentioned, looks like Providenciales looks to be served from LHR via NAS from November. Another loss for LGW? At this rate I’m surprised that CUN/KIN haven’t moved up the road?

[772]

very different dynamic with PLS compared with the likes of CUN, PUJ, KIN, MBJ etc

PLS to be served from LHR via NAS for winter as you rightly say. It’s no loss in capacity for LGW as it was only an add on from ANU twice a week.

PLS does naturally, in my view, lend its self better to being an add on to NAS than ANU, geographically, and also, it’s a very premium heavy destination, often in precovid times, the J loads were often very healthy, as with W where as M, less popular. The LGW 777s offering just 32J, I think PLS is better served from LHR with a bigger J cabin and better facilities for premium passengers.

[TURIN]

Two days ago the CEO said there would be no more lay offs.
Today, 70+ Engineers are facing notice of redundancy! 😞

[772]

this is sad news to hear :(

[stewyb]

indeed and with Furlough ending today, more to follow across the industry unfortunately

[PAXboy]

BA up to their usual corporate nonsense. A friend of mine reports:

Booked rtn LHR - FCO
Rcd email before travel inviting to upgrade to Euro Club for £96 rtn. She accepted.
At check in, notified that Club was full and she was being downgraded. Given the phone number to contact for refund.
They have not given a refund. They have sent standard 'We know this is not what you expect from our usual high standards blah blah' and oferred £30 compensation.
No mention of refunding the £96.
After emails pointing this out - Silence. She Tweeted at them - Silence.

Suggestions as to best and quickest and cheapest route to get her £96 back? Naturally, she has not accepted the £30.

I am still amazed that corporates do not understanding the price of customer service. A refund and 250 Avios and this would all be over and customer shrugging their shoulders and not minding.

[BA318]

She is also entitled to EU downgrading compensation. Write them stating it and if no response you can claim via small claims court. There are loads of threads on other forums with how to deal with it.

[PAXboy]

Many thanks BA318 I'll do more searching when back at my desk. But as this is BA the rights have fallen away. If it were AF then it would apply.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

I don't understand the missing bit between phoning them and getting the email. Was the email outcome not what was agreed on the call? They do need to refund the upgrade fee, try calling back and speaking to a different agent, it often works.

[Tocsin]

'EU' rights have not fallen away, as all the EU Directives were incorporated into UK law, even though BA (and other airlines) try to ignore both! Investigate chargeback, CEDR and MCOL - probably in that order of complexity. As BA318 said, there are lots of frequent flyer sites with info and help.

[CabinCrewe]

Skipness One Foxtrot

Don’t believe everything you read on BA FlyerTalk…

[PAXboy]

Skipness
The phone call was a request for a full refund but was of only offered £30 compensation. The email confirmed that and ignored the £96 she had paid for the upgrade.

Thanks for the feedback, I'll pass it on.

[vectisman]

Reports coming through BA and BALPA have had fresh talks concerning Gatwick and an agreement has been reached. More details tomorrow.
A new ballot is to follow.

[davidjohnson6]

Internet chatter of some A380s being used on short haul routes (possibly FRA and MAD) within Europe in November to get crew familiar with aircraft again, prior to longhaul use. Any concrete and verifiable details ?

[Ancient-Mariner]

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/british-airways-a380-heathrow-frankfurt-madrid-b1931883.html
Initially on short-haul LHR to Europe.

[Buster the Bear]

Makes sense, Iberia have been operating A350 and A 330-300s for many months into Heathrow and Madrid was a destination that has been used for crew training and now famil before.

[Rutan16]

No disrespect but Iberia has operated at least one daily flight (usually the 6/7pm) with a widebody DC10/A300 since the seventies specifically to connect with South America and for cargo.

Now use of the 388 to get hours upto to speed is certainly a welcome move.

[DaveReidUK]

Nowadays it's typically two, sometimes three, daily widebody rotations, usually A330 or A350.

[BA318]

Plus BA usually using a 777 daily.

[DaveReidUK]

Restarted WBs on MAD in September after nearly a year's break - currently 3 times a week with a 787.

[Vokes55]

Rutan16

There’s no ‘and’ about it, it’s entirely for the cargo. Mainly fresh food. So much cargo that baggage is often left behind and sent on another flight, freeing up the entire hold of the wide-body for cargo.

A lack of direct BA flights to South/Central America and a reduced schedule through MIA is the reason for multiple wide-bodies on LHR-MAD during Covid times.

[BleedingOn]

vectisman

Anyone know any more on this? What concessions have been made to resurrect this proposal?