Loganair-3

[fjencl]

Tbh can't really see who else will operate it other than Loganair. Will be interested to see what others were on the tender

Do they publish the list of the other interested parties after the winner of the PSO has been announced , is that how it works.

Anybody know how it works ????

[amyisraelchai]

You would need to be able to prove you can fulfill the contract i.e. be an airline with an AOC, which isn't happening for Summer 24.

What's the idea of a PSO that operates once a week?
I was of the impression that their plan was to begin operations mid-summer, ie July time. Happy to be corrected - either way it is too late for a start at the beginning of the season.

[Markushillman]

Credit to @@SeanM1997 on X

Loganair has lost its PSO between Stornoway - Benbeclua.

New operator to be Hebridean Air Services to launch April 2024

[inOban]

If I'm not mistaken, they operate the services from Oban (Connel ) airport to Colonsay Coll and Tiree. There's going to be a lot of positional flying. They're part of Airtask and at Oban use a BN2B, which may be a better size for the route

[Diff Tail Shim]

Looking at CAA data I see that Loganair is doing better now than pre-pandemic in terms of passenger numbers but with only a moderate increase in flights compared to 2019:

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/823x688/logan1_16b151e0208ba4783c11c8b7c8780ac802f2375c.png

perhaps linked to the change in aircraft type:
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/750x694/l2_7a81891f02b02785379dc3ac8b20bb7c277c5870.png
Flying routes they did not fly prior to the fall of Flybe and 1/3rd bigger with the ex BMI EJR fleet.

[fjencl]

When Loganair made the following announcement .......“Inverness to Birmingham and Dublin will operate their last flights on 5th January 2024,

Did that mean a reduction of a based aircraft at Inverness, or are Loganair still operating with an ATR42 and an Embraer 145 based at Inverness these days.

If so, on what routes are both types operating.

[Atlantic Explorer]

No E145 based at INV anymore, just an ATR 42 for passenger services. I believe the based freighters will also leave early summer as well.

[billyg]

No E145 based at INV anymore, just an ATR 42 for passenger services. I believe the based freighters will also leave early summer as well.

I saw a post elsewhere suggesting the freighters would soon be operating from Glasgow ?

[Atlantic Explorer]

I saw a post elsewhere suggesting the freighters would soon be operating from Glasgow ?

Yeah I believe they are being transferred to GLA. Not great news for the INV base which has taken a hammering.

[5711N0205W]

G-SAJB

This aircraft has been sitting in ABZ beside the railway for a long time without engines and is well taped up, as an E135ER I guess it doesn't fit well in the fleet and probably not attractive in the general market.

Anyone know of plans for it?

[Diff Tail Shim]

G-SAJB

This aircraft has been sitting in ABZ beside the railway for a long time without engines and is well taped up, as an E135ER I guess it doesn't fit well in the fleet and probably not attractive in the general market.

Anyone know of plans for it?
No.. Seeing the other 135s have been sold or torn down, I doubt getting it back into service is a serious option mind.

[Saabdriver1]

It won't fly again - just needs final part-out to be completed to finally disappear.

[Atlantic Explorer]

Shame, that was LM’s first Embraer.

[Diff Tail Shim]

Shame, that was LM’s first Embraer.
Embraer as a supporter of EJRs outside of Europe is better. Inside Brexit land is even worse. USA has the EJRs. So many Loganair employees voted for leave. Moan that things are Pete Tong.

[scodaman]

Embraer as a supporter of EJRs outside of Europe is better. Inside Brexit land is even worse. USA has the EJRs. So many Loganair employees voted for leave. Moan that things are Pete Tong.

Might be showing my age here but "2 syllables, Book, Movie or Song?"

[willy wombat]

Embraer as a supporter of EJRs outside of Europe is better. Inside Brexit land is even worse. USA has the EJRs. So many Loganair employees voted for leave. Moan that things are Pete Tong.

Partaking of a healthy measure of Scotland’s national drink while posting?

[Atlantic Explorer]

Partaking of a healthy measure of Scotland’s national drink while posting?
Glad it’s not just me trying to decipher that post! I’m wondering what an EJR is??

[SWBKCB]

EJR = Embraer Regional Jet. How Embraer describe the 145 family.

https://www.embraercommercialaviation.com/fleet/erj/

[amyisraelchai]

EJR = Embraer Regional Jet. How Embraer describe the 145 family.

https://www.embraercommercialaviation.com/fleet/erj/
Crucial error there - it's an ERJ surely!

[SWBKCB]

Crucial error there - it's an ERJ surely!

Yes - got it Pete Tong!

[Diff Tail Shim]

Partaking of a healthy measure of Scotland’s national drink while posting?
You know anything about aircraft part procurement? I suspect not.

[willy wombat]

You know anything about aircraft part procurement? I suspect not.
Actually I know a lot about aircraft part procurement. I can also write sentences that make sense.

[Diff Tail Shim]

Crucial error there - it's an ERJ surely!
Auto text error. Whatever. Getting spares turned around for them is way harder and more expensive. That is from ome of the authorised suppliers of Embraer spares. Brexit is not just a small part of that. Only decent thing from it is that it has seen my wages shoot through the roof. Lack of CAA LAEs.

[Rivet Joint]

Doesn’t help that one of the ERJs has been parked in Lithuania since December. Do renovation works really take that long?

3 newish ATRs have also been due for many months but looks like all operators of this type are waiting ages for works/new additions. Odd seeing as it’s an aircraft built in France.

[SWBKCB]

Scottish carrier Loganair is irritated that the UK’s withdrawal from the European Union Aviation Safety Agency is exacerbating problems with the post-pandemic supply chain.

The airline states that constraints on parts availability have resulted in lead times for routine spares increasing from a “matter of hours to several days”, with a knock-on effect on the time needed to return aircraft to service.Loganair says industry forecasts predict a lessening of the issue over the course of this year.

But the airline points out that it faces “unwelcome delays” in spares import, as well as recertification of parts, owing to the UK’s non-membership of EASA.

“All of this has a direct impact on service delivery for our customers, which we have only been able to partly mitigate through increased aircraft standby coverage and efforts – backed by significant capital expenditure – to increase our in-house holding of aircraft spares,” it says in its latest full-year financial disclosure.

The airline says its on-time performance has improved since its last financial year, spanning 2022-23, but the supply-chain issues are keeping it “below our targeted levels”.

https://www.flightglobal.com/airlines/loganair-frustrated-as-uks-easa-withdrawal-aggravates-supply-chain-problems/157673.article

[ATNotts]

https://www.flightglobal.com/airlines/loganair-frustrated-as-uks-easa-withdrawal-aggravates-supply-chain-problems/157673.article
Another (non) benefit of you know what!

[Diff Tail Shim]

https://www.flightglobal.com/airlines/loganair-frustrated-as-uks-easa-withdrawal-aggravates-supply-chain-problems/157673.article
Totally correct.

[onion]

Totally correct.
sorry don't quite buy this excuse. Just to quantify I work in customs and audit companies including aviation companies.
Part 21 is mutually recognised as is Part 145.
There are specific commodity codes for civil aviation parts and customs will accept at import EASA certification as per the EU UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement.
Companies (not just airlines) can get end use authorisations or even IPR/OPR authorisations to help with import processes.
We still follow in some areas the EU legislation.

So I just don't buy this... it sounds like an easy excuse for poor managment of their supply chains and maintenance schedules!

[Diff Tail Shim]

Another (non) benefit of you know what!
Covid just accelerated the outcome.

[Diff Tail Shim]

sorry don't quite buy this excuse. Just to quantify I work in customs and audit companies including aviation companies.
Part 21 is mutually recognised as is Part 145.
There are specific commodity codes for civil aviation parts and customs will accept at import EASA certification as per the EU UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement.
Companies (not just airlines) can get end use authorisations or even IPR/OPR authorisations to help with import processes.
We still follow in some areas the EU legislation.

So I just don't buy this... it sounds like an easy excuse for poor managment of their supply chains and maintenance schedules!
Still need a CAA Form 1. PART 145 and PART 21 is diverging between EASA and CAA. Customs is only a small part of the problem. They are not mutually recognised now. There is safety agreements in place of course so the bull didnt stop everything. But it is a hinderance and additional cost.

[Atlantic Explorer]

But this isn’t just purely a Loganair issue. All UK airlines will be affected in the same way surely. No mention of the crewing problems though.

[SWBKCB]

I don't think anybody has said it's a Loganair specific issue, it came out as part of the background to their annual results

[Diff Tail Shim]

But this isn’t just purely a Loganair issue. All UK airlines will be affected in the same way surely. No mention of the crewing problems though.
All UK airlines have crew/engineer issues. Not enough of us with UK licences. The pilots that jumped to Ruinair got another licence from a certain NRA. Up to them whom they recognise.

[lfc84]

I was considering changing a reservation. I input the details and the website quoted me the change. Decided not to go ahead. Now the reservation has actually been changed and shows it's pending a payment. What a rubbish website when you evidently can't cancel the change and it makes the change before payment has been made. Now need to contact the call centr

[toon22]

We should all be wary to comment/criticise airline commercial strategies, but I worry for Loganair on their non--PSO routes.
Looking at fares between now and the end of May for Southampton, Exeter and Newquay departures, they are eye - wateringly high. Fares from Newquay to Manchester can reach over £450, return, whereas those from Exeter (with Bristol, an hour up the road) to Scotland are uniformly over £300. The same applies to Southampton. Virtually no seats below £100 one-way during this period, so family travel is completely excluded. There is no evidence of lower fare classes to build decent load factors but what do I know? I hope the new pricing strategy works but it looks like Loganair are retreating into a niche carrier catering for non-discretionary travel.

[SWBKCB]

How else are you getting from SOU/EXT to Scotland for under £100?

[SouthernAlliance]

How else are you getting from SOU/EXT to Scotland for under £100?

This Saturday with easyJet from SOU, £57.99 one way to GLA

[SWBKCB]

Twice a week, flying when EZY want to fly. Now try from Exeter?!

[Willo 3D]

Twice a week, flying when EZY want to fly. Now try from Exeter?!

Go an hour or so up the road to Bristol where there are multiple daily flights and frequently returns for £60 or £70!

[Hial Flyer]

Twice a week, flying when EZY want to fly. Now try from Exeter?!

Easyjet are daily Southampton to Glasgow from next month.

[01475]

If Loganair were just retreating into being the "niche carrier for non discretionary travel" (and rich people) then that would be sad, but it also wouldn't actually be the worst thing. What's happening seems to be worse; an alarming progressive death of regional flying (from Scotland / in the UK / across Europe). In the past Glasgow had niche carriers for non-discretionary travel to places like Norwich, Cambridge, Leeds, East Midlands.

It feels like there is an inherent market failure. It's sensible for all but the very biggest airlines to operate only one size of aircraft; and it's sensible for that size to be 'not small'. Operators of small aircraft seem fated to live a life where they can only operate routes that are both successful but also cannot physically be operated by larger aircraft. If there is a whiff of a possibility that someone might be able to operate a larger aircraft on the route then the operator is doomed (whether they are Loganair at the hands of easyJet or Eastern at the hands of Loganair!) to be usurped by someone for whom the route is clearly not going to be a strategic priority.

[SWBKCB]

EZY are only twice a week now, and we'll see what they do next winter. If you have the time to drive to another airport and can travel when EZY want you to travel, that's fine.

My basic point is that anybody who thinks £100 is expensive to fly from the south of England to Scotland needs their lumps feeling :ok:

[MidlandsWanderer]

EZY are only twice a week now, and we'll see what they do next winter. If you have the time to drive to another airport and can travel when EZY want you to travel, that's fine.

My basic point is that anybody who thinks £100 is expensive to fly from the south of England to Scotland needs their lumps feeling :ok:

It's a fair point. 6 1/2 to 7 hours by train with a fare of £219.00 for travel next Mon return Tues. Must be worth £300 for someone's money just for the time saving alone if you have to do it.

[jensdad]

If Loganair were just retreating into being the "niche carrier for non discretionary travel" (and rich people) then that would be sad, but it also wouldn't actually be the worst thing. What's happening seems to be worse; an alarming progressive death of regional flying (from Scotland / in the UK / across Europe). In the past Glasgow had niche carriers for non-discretionary travel to places like Norwich, Cambridge, Leeds, East Midlands.

It feels like there is an inherent market failure. It's sensible for all but the very biggest airlines to operate only one size of aircraft; and it's sensible for that size to be 'not small'. Operators of small aircraft seem fated to live a life where they can only operate routes that are both successful but also cannot physically be operated by larger aircraft. If there is a whiff of a possibility that someone might be able to operate a larger aircraft on the route then the operator is doomed (whether they are Loganair at the hands of easyJet or Eastern at the hands of Loganair!) to be usurped by someone for whom the route is clearly not going to be a strategic priority.
I was thinking the same thing today - I'm a big fan of market forces but that concept does definitely seem to be failing on non-London internal aviation on the island of Great Britain (Scottish Islands and NI seem to be managing OK). Another way of looking at it is that there's a big opportunity there for someone...

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

There's no big opportunity. No one even makes western commercial turboprops anymore other than the ATR in small numbers. Loganair were realistic and rolled over 40 year old Saabs for 20 year old ATRs, new builds would have killed them.
The days of people flying Air UK F27s up the East Coast full of businessmen or oil men in a pre-Zoom world. Scotland-MAN/BHX served to feed hubs for BA, LC (now LM) and II (Business Air, who fed Lufthansa). Almost all of that feed now goes direct, and there's no business case for point to point GLA-MAN/LBA/CWL/LPL or EDI-NWI or HUY. No more Fokkers, Sheds or Budgies, it's the ATR or a loco jet, because the prices on the old school props are markedly higher than a market that flies to Spain for less will bear. This is mainly due to the economies of scale of a large jet, not the greed of smaller operators.
Meetings are mainly online, trains are much better and even the road network is better in parts! Time to move on, unless some new technology changes the game.

[SWBKCB]

Trains are much better? Where?!

[Diff Tail Shim]

There's no big opportunity. No one even makes western commercial turboprops anymore other than the ATR in small numbers. Loganair were realistic and rolled over 40 year old Saabs for 20 year old ATRs, new builds would have killed them.
The days of people flying Air UK F27s up the East Coast full of businessmen or oil men in a pre-Zoom world. Scotland-MAN/BHX served to feed hubs for BA, LC (now LM) and II (Business Air, who fed Lufthansa). Almost all of that feed now goes direct, and there's no business case for point to point GLA-MAN/LBA/CWL/LPL or EDI-NWI or HUY. No more Fokkers, Sheds or Budgies, it's the ATR or a loco jet, because the prices on the old school props are markedly higher than a market that flies to Spain for less will bear. This is mainly due to the economies of scale of a large jet, not the greed of smaller operators.
Meetings are mainly online, trains are much better and even the road network is better in parts! Time to move on, unless some new technology changes the game.
Full aeroplane from SOU to NCL tonight. Packed most nights. Perfect route for an ERJ. Spares are the issue like every other regional. Way bigger ERJ operators in USA with big dollars. But you are right. Bar the hateful ATRs, no western regional newbuilds. Eastern fixes its own J41s. Dicky must have shares in BAES.

[willy wombat]

Full aeroplane from SOU to NCL tonight. Packed most nights. Perfect route for an ERJ. Spares are the issue like every other regional. Way bigger ERJ operators in USA with big dollars. But you are right. Bar the hateful ATRs, no western regional newbuilds. Eastern fixes its own J41s. Dicky must have shares in BAES.
Why do you hate the ATR so much? On the right routes it can be a money making machine (particularly the 72).

[Diff Tail Shim]

Why do you hate the ATR so much? On the right routes it can be a money making machine (particularly the 72).
It's a dinosaur and if old an expensive one. As you said, the right routes. 500s are jurassic and labour intensive to keep flying.

[Asturias56]

Trains are much better? Where?!

Say London - Newcastle?

[SWBKCB]

Can't say I've noticed, but obviously that's a London route. Anywhere not involving London? Certainly Newcastle to say Manchester is crap.

[Rivet Joint]

Just seen the articles about their latest review of operations and retrenching to focus on the northern isles. This seems absolutely crazy to me. The fact those routes are subsidised says it all, they do not have demand for an air service. Given the current climate debate you would also have to say such routes are on shaky ground, or certainly should be! To give up routes like SOU-GLA and ABZ-NCL which see many thousands of annual passengers to keep serving the likes of Barra, Benbecula etc is nothing short of suicidal. I think with this decision we are seeing the start of the demise of this airline. No sane person sits in a boardroom and goes, yeah let’s stop serving cities with populations of 270k and 298k with metros in the millions but still serve little barren islands with populations of 1,000 odd people. Let’s not forget that PSOs can be taken away and given to another airline even a new paper airline. Look at what happened with Stobart when Emerald appeared out of thin air. Can anyone see sense in the new guy’s decisions?

Also makes the decision to keep and invest millions refurbishing the 145s even more foolish now. They might have a thread of sense serving long routes quickly but island hopping?

I won’t pretend to be familiar with the Scottish highland routes but from afar it seems bat**** crazy for islands with a few thousands inhabitants having a daily air service. Surely ferries will more than suffice for travel and movement of products, post etc? Firstly, how can they afford to travel so frequently on a plane considering how expensive a mode of transport it is and presumably not an abundance of job prospects somewhere so remote? More to the point, surely when you grow up somewhere so remote or make the decision to move somewhere like that it’s because you want a quiet life and to predominantly stay local to your home. Happy to be corrected but I find the amount of routes served and at the tax payers’ expense crazy!

[ATNotts]

RJ,

If you know anything about the CalMac ferry operation to watchword is "unreliable", not just because of their vintage fleet, but also the sea conditions. The air links are vital for the Scottish islands and to slash subsidies would be political suicide.

That being the case being paid to operate Highlands and Islands routes is surely preferable to trying to make money head to head with Easyjet.

Once they have the operational issues sorted then returning to some cancelled and reduced routes could follow.

[SWBKCB]

Just seen the articles about their latest review of operations and retrenching to focus on the northern isles. This seems absolutely crazy to me. The fact those routes are subsidised says it all, they do not have demand for an air service. Given the current climate debate you would also have to say such routes are on shaky ground, or certainly should be! To give up routes like SOU-GLA and ABZ-NCL which see many thousands of annual passengers to keep serving the likes of Barra, Benbecula etc is nothing short of suicidal. I think with this decision we are seeing the start of the demise of this airline. No sane person sits in a boardroom and goes, yeah let’s stop serving cities with populations of 270k and 298k with metros in the millions but still serve little barren islands with populations of 1,000 odd people. Let’s not forget that PSOs can be taken away and given to another airline even a new paper airline. Look at what happened with Stobart when Emerald appeared out of thin air. Can anyone see sense in the new guy’s decisions?

Also makes the decision to keep and invest millions refurbishing the 145s even more foolish now. They might have a thread of sense serving long routes quickly but island hopping?

I won’t pretend to be familiar with the Scottish highland routes but from afar it seems bat**** crazy for islands with a few thousands inhabitants having a daily air service. Surely ferries will more than suffice for travel and movement of products, post etc? Firstly, how can they afford to travel so frequently on a plane considering how expensive a mode of transport it is and presumably not an abundance of job prospects somewhere so remote? More to the point, surely when you grow up somewhere so remote or make the decision to move somewhere like that it’s because you want a quiet life and to predominantly stay local to your home. Happy to be corrected but I find the amount of routes served and at the tax payers’ expense crazy!

Can you provide a link to the article - I suspect it is wrong or you have misunderstood it. Flying to 'barren islands' is a minor part of their operation, as is PSO flying.

As far as I am aware, this is the full statement:Statement from Loganair CEOMr Farajallah said: “Since my first day as CEO of Loganair last month, I have been listening carefully to feedback from our loyal customers and hard-working crew, and I want to personally apologise to everyone who has been impacted by the unacceptable levels of disruption that have been experienced for over 18-months whilst the airline has been undertaking a re-fleeting programme.

“We appreciate the changes we are announcing today may impact some customers whose bookings may need to change. While we apologise to customers affected, this decision is one that has been made for the greater good of the vast majority of customers who must be able to book and fly with confidence, especially from some of the most remote parts of the UK.

“Loganair is the UK’s largest regional airline, and we are getting back to the basic principles that have made us successful for over six decades. We are relentlessly focused on confidently serving our core markets and core customers, who must be able to book with certainty, and experience a stable and resilient flying programme.

"This is especially true for the Highlands and Islands communities who rely on Loganair for being so much more than an airline serving a leisure market. We have been falling short of the service levels expected of us by our loyal customers and amazing crew for over 18 months, and today we are making changes that once fully delivered throughout the summer will help restore the image and reputation we have fought so hard to generate over so many years as the trusted airline partner in our unique market.

“Our entire team and board of Directors is behind us in making these decisions, and we are all excited about the prospect of getting back to our core set of principles in our heartlands – and we intend to defend and grow our presence in these markets through the demonstration that we can and will deliver consistent operational stability and excellence”.

[tallaonejuliet]

Just seen the articles about their latest review of operations and retrenching to focus on the northern isles. This seems absolutely crazy to me. The fact those routes are subsidised says it all, they do not have demand for an air service. Given the current climate debate you would also have to say such routes are on shaky ground, or certainly should be! To give up routes like SOU-GLA and ABZ-NCL which see many thousands of annual passengers to keep serving the likes of Barra, Benbecula etc is nothing short of suicidal. I think with this decision we are seeing the start of the demise of this airline. No sane person sits in a boardroom and goes, yeah let’s stop serving cities with populations of 270k and 298k with metros in the millions but still serve little barren islands with populations of 1,000 odd people. Let’s not forget that PSOs can be taken away and given to another airline even a new paper airline. Look at what happened with Stobart when Emerald appeared out of thin air. Can anyone see sense in the new guy’s decisions?

Also makes the decision to keep and invest millions refurbishing the 145s even more foolish now. They might have a thread of sense serving long routes quickly but island hopping?

I won’t pretend to be familiar with the Scottish highland routes but from afar it seems bat**** crazy for islands with a few thousands inhabitants having a daily air service. Surely ferries will more than suffice for travel and movement of products, post etc? Firstly, how can they afford to travel so frequently on a plane considering how expensive a mode of transport it is and presumably not an abundance of job prospects somewhere so remote? More to the point, surely when you grow up somewhere so remote or make the decision to move somewhere like that it’s because you want a quiet life and to predominantly stay local to your home. Happy to be corrected but I find the amount of routes served and at the tax payers’ expense crazy!

Are you ok?
For you information not all LM's services are government backed or funded, and you clearly have no comprehension of the geopolitical issues north of the Watford gap or your own head.
Ever thought LM are aware of EasyJet's plans and are getting out before they incur any further losses, the new guy at LM isn't exactly wet behind the ears in regional aviation.
Those pesky ERJ's are still making money for their owners despite the vintage status, what would you suggest LM replace them with given the availability on the market?
Engage the brain before making a fool of yourself online, clearly the economics of running an airline are out with your grasp thankfully.

[scr1]

Just seen the articles about their latest review of operations and retrenching to focus on the northern isles. This seems absolutely crazy to me. The fact those routes are subsidised says it all, they do not have demand for an air service. Given the current climate debate you would also have to say such routes are on shaky ground, or certainly should be! To give up routes like SOU-GLA and ABZ-NCL which see many thousands of annual passengers to keep serving the likes of Barra, Benbecula etc is nothing short of suicidal. I think with this decision we are seeing the start of the demise of this airline. No sane person sits in a boardroom and goes, yeah let’s stop serving cities with populations of 270k and 298k with metros in the millions but still serve little barren islands with populations of 1,000 odd people. Let’s not forget that PSOs can be taken away and given to another airline even a new paper airline. Look at what happened with Stobart when Emerald appeared out of thin air. Can anyone see sense in the new guy’s decisions?

Also makes the decision to keep and invest millions refurbishing the 145s even more foolish now. They might have a thread of sense serving long routes quickly but island hopping?

I won’t pretend to be familiar with the Scottish highland routes but from afar it seems bat**** crazy for islands with a few thousands inhabitants having a daily air service. Surely ferries will more than suffice for travel and movement of products, post etc? Firstly, how can they afford to travel so frequently on a plane considering how expensive a mode of transport it is and presumably not an abundance of job prospects somewhere so remote? More to the point, surely when you grow up somewhere so remote or make the decision to move somewhere like that it’s because you want a quiet life and to predominantly stay local to your home. Happy to be corrected but I find the amount of routes served and at the tax payers’ expense crazy!


A large number of pax are paid for by the NHS to receive hospital care that is not available on the islands. How would you propose to deliver vital service as someone else has pointed out the ferry's are very unreliable.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

I won’t pretend to be familiar with the Scottish highland routes !
It was explained clearly to you why Loganair would leave SOU if easyJet came in. You demonstate that you literally do not comprehend how this airline has survived 61 years. Please stop rantiing.

[L1011effoh]

Happy to be corrected but I find the amount of routes served and at the tax payers’ expense crazy!
I doubt you’ll be happy to be corrected but I consider your rant to be completely wrong in most respects. Please stick to discussing SOU/BOH as they are much closer to you. In any case, it is the Scottish taxpayers who “fund” these many routes to “barren islands”, so you can drop the false outrage.

[ATIS31]

Just seen the articles about their latest review of operations and retrenching to focus on the northern isles. This seems absolutely crazy to me. The fact those routes are subsidised says it all, they do not have demand for an air service. Given the current climate debate you would also have to say such routes are on shaky ground, or certainly should be! To give up routes like SOU-GLA and ABZ-NCL which see many thousands of annual passengers to keep serving the likes of Barra, Benbecula etc is nothing short of suicidal. I think with this decision we are seeing the start of the demise of this airline. No sane person sits in a boardroom and goes, yeah let’s stop serving cities with populations of 270k and 298k with metros in the millions but still serve little barren islands with populations of 1,000 odd people. Let’s not forget that PSOs can be taken away and given to another airline even a new paper airline. Look at what happened with Stobart when Emerald appeared out of thin air. Can anyone see sense in the new guy’s decisions?

Also makes the decision to keep and invest millions refurbishing the 145s even more foolish now. They might have a thread of sense serving long routes quickly but island hopping?

I won’t pretend to be familiar with the Scottish highland routes but from afar it seems bat**** crazy for islands with a few thousands inhabitants having a daily air service. Surely ferries will more than suffice for travel and movement of products, post etc? Firstly, how can they afford to travel so frequently on a plane considering how expensive a mode of transport it is and presumably not an abundance of job prospects somewhere so remote? More to the point, surely when you grow up somewhere so remote or make the decision to move somewhere like that it’s because you want a quiet life and to predominantly stay local to your home. Happy to be corrected but I find the amount of routes served and at the tax payers’ expense crazy!

If you lived in these Rural Island areas you would see just how vital these air services are compared to mainland operations. There are options by rail from Aberdeen to Newcastle on a good rail network the same can be said for Glasgow to Southampton. The same can not be said for these Isolated Island communities who's only other option is ferries and there is plenty publicity at the moment to know that's not going too well

[jensdad]

Just seen the articles about their latest review of operations and retrenching to focus on the northern isles. This seems absolutely crazy to me. The fact those routes are subsidised says it all, they do not have demand for an air service. Given the current climate debate you would also have to say such routes are on shaky ground, or certainly should be! To give up routes like SOU-GLA and ABZ-NCL which see many thousands of annual passengers to keep serving the likes of Barra, Benbecula etc is nothing short of suicidal. I think with this decision we are seeing the start of the demise of this airline. No sane person sits in a boardroom and goes, yeah let’s stop serving cities with populations of 270k and 298k with metros in the millions but still serve little barren islands with populations of 1,000 odd people. Let’s not forget that PSOs can be taken away and given to another airline even a new paper airline. Look at what happened with Stobart when Emerald appeared out of thin air. Can anyone see sense in the new guy’s decisions?

Also makes the decision to keep and invest millions refurbishing the 145s even more foolish now. They might have a thread of sense serving long routes quickly but island hopping?

I won’t pretend to be familiar with the Scottish highland routes but from afar it seems bat**** crazy for islands with a few thousands inhabitants having a daily air service. Surely ferries will more than suffice for travel and movement of products, post etc? Firstly, how can they afford to travel so frequently on a plane considering how expensive a mode of transport it is and presumably not an abundance of job prospects somewhere so remote? More to the point, surely when you grow up somewhere so remote or make the decision to move somewhere like that it’s because you want a quiet life and to predominantly stay local to your home. Happy to be corrected but I find the amount of routes served and at the tax payers’ expense crazy!
As you're happy to be corrected, I'll correct you :)
There are some nuggets of truth in there but some misunderstandings as well. Just two weeks ago I flew Edinburgh - Kirkwall and back, as I do every year or so for holidays, and the ATR was full both ways, so it is certainly not the case that 'they do not have demand for an air service'. And as to the question of how 'they' can afford to fly, there is the Air Discount Scheme (link attached) and also the fact that Orkney at least (I'm not massively familiar with the other island groups) is actually one of the most prosperous parts of the UK, as well as a popular tourist destination.
I could go on but others have corrected you a bit more stridently than I have :)
https://www.airdiscountscheme.com/

[Hearmenow]

I'm not sure it s a strategic decision to reduce services but one born out of necessity - didn't the new CEO state he wanted to expand the business when he took over?
The UK Pilot market is buoyant at the moment, especially for experienced Pilots with the right to live and work in the UK, Logan are haemorrhaging Pilots far better career enhancing and paying options.
Probably a wise move to retreat to the core business until the dust settled - I think Hinkles saw what was coming.

Scotland actually NEEDS an airline to service the Islands, but the new Scottish tax rates won't have helped.

[SWBKCB]

Probably a wise move to retreat to the core business until the dust settled

The recent changes are taking on a life of their own - they've dropped GLA-SOU now EZY have jumped on it, NCL/MME-ABZ because the market is dropping and trimmed some other services to maintain stability. More like 'trimming' rather than 'retreating'

[SWBKCB]

The above two posts have added some of the insight I was after. Namely the ferries being crap and there being cheap tickets thanks to an air discount scheme. Whist this explains a bit the need for tax payer funded flights on a mode of transport that goes against the environmental grain to low population islands, I’m not sure how it can sustain a business with 36 aircraft. Time will tell. Be interesting to know what their top 10 performing routes were last year.

So are you against state supported air transport to island communities where there is ferry provision?

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

I’m not sure how it can sustain a business with 36 aircraft. Time will tell. Be interesting to know what their top 10 performing routes were last year.
I can recommend Loganair : A Scottish Survivor by former CEO Scott Grier and Scotland's Airline The First 23 Years by Iain Hutchison from the usual sources. It also explains how they expanded out of Scotland into SOU before events made sure those routes went elsewhere in the group.
If you want to understand how Loganair outlasted so many of their peers.
*IF*.

[S.o.S.]

Time to step back everyone.

There is a long established rule in PPRuNe: Play the Ball - not the Player.

We do not need any more personal accusations. I am watching.

[Rivet Joint]

So are you against state supported air transport to island communities where there is ferry provision?

Never said I was against anything. Merely questioned it. I don’t think it’s illogical to question the irony of subsidising air travel to tiny remote islands when there is a climate crisis. There are key airports like AMS who are having to reduce their amount of flights and LHR which isn’t seemingly allowed it’s third runway being impacted by environmental concerns yet flights to tiny remote islands aren’t allowed to be questioned? I don’t think this is an unreasonable question and I qualified it by saying I am no expert on Scottish highland routes. Not that it matters but I have close family in Scotland and visit regularly. Love the country.

I can recommend Loganair : A Scottish Survivor by former CEO Scott Grier and Scotland's Airline The First 23 Years by Iain Hutchison from the usual sources. It also explains how they expanded out of Scotland into SOU before events made sure those routes went elsewhere in the group.
If you want to understand how Loganair outlasted so many of their peers.
*IF*.

Of course but since Flybe’s collapse and post pandemic they have grown much larger than the Loganair that focused on its core market in Scotland. A fleet of 30 seater 340s and a few 50 seat Saab 2000s has largely been replaced with larger 70 seat ATRs and 50 seat business jets. As I said time will tell. Just an opinion on a forum.

[S.o.S.]

The request is that EVERYONE stops making personal remarks, Discuss the subject but DO NOT accuse others of ANYTHING.

If you think you are making a 'light hearted' reference - make it CLEAR in text and with emojis.

[willy wombat]

Re environmental issues. I seem to remember that when Jonathan Hinkles was berated about this with “greens” saying people should take trains instead he pointed out that the nearest train station to The Shetlands is Bergen.