EK to Decommission 50%+ of Airbus A380, Axe 1/2 of Pilots & Cabin Crew

[captainsmiffy]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/a853ef9b_973f_41b8_be07_617f76985175_cdcf2b05c6569b1d42b9e9d 9011785a988ffdae4.jpeg
Says it all really....😀

[Juan Heych]

Smoke and mirrors...

[Pistolpete47]

Doesn't the Dubai economy largely chug along on overpriced services to well paid expats? Profits from utilities, alcohol, groceries etc all ending up back in government hands. Can understand a push for more Emirati pilots but can't see it replacing the need for foreigners.

[WB1900]

but that’s exactly the point
they cannot do anything without foreigners expertise - no building , no computer network , no nothing - the whole country is built on it, because a Emirati would never do a low graded job as he he born to lead - not understanding the importance of foreigners to their country let’s them see foreigners as low grad person and therefor expats are treated as they are - it’s also called arrogance, which is in the unrespectfull behavior of each single uae local visible (except excemptions of course, as I also fly with locals, who spend a good amount of time abroad the UAE, and they have been great personalities). But the camel herders who have never seen the UAE border from the other side and never watched other parts of the world with an respectful, curios eye are simple what the they are, not much difference to animals

[WB1900]

g109

never if they could

but i guess it’s hard to find the right words to make the bitter :mad: tasting sweet

[5star]

cptsmiffy,

very nice catch btw. Who needs a spelling checker today?
Only in Dubai….:ugh:

[krismiler]

Emiratis make up less than 12% of the population, there simply aren’t enough locals to have a functioning country if all the foreigners and expats left. However being a pilot is a better position than being a construction labourer so this is one of the more attractive areas for the locals. Even so, expats will still be needed.

[WB1900]

let’s put it that way - and yes you are right
but considering the fact that a Emirati would never throw a brick to build a house or definitely would not start digging a drain, there is no way of having a functioning country based on locals. The current scale of Dubai is just because the want to attract to live there for whatever reason. On a smaller scale for e.g. a size of a village the 12% of Emirati are more than enough, but being born to lead requires something to lead and that’s where all the expat come into the game.
And no the country has proofen, that a pilot is at the very base not worth more than any Indian construction Labour, only better payed and attracted by better benefits, but that does not describe the value which is as zero than any other worker, proofed by the fact how fast they where gone once not needed

Again STC made a remarkable statement to the value of a pilot “ungainfully employed” we will get rid of.

[Pistolpete47]

Didn't want my comment to encourage the sort of vitriol published since. I don't hold anything against the locals looking after them selves first. It's their country so fair enough. All I wanted to say was that there will still be opportunities for foreign pilots in the UAE in the future. At least I hope so bc I'd like to go back at some stage.

[pitonga]

If every airline restricted its employees to their own nationals, the airline world would be very strange.......and perhaps less safe?
Yes, think of an Italian Airline with all Italians at the controls.......madness

[captainsmiffy]

Thanks, 5star....I was beginning to think that folks had missed my point! As has clearly happened in DXB all these years! I even went in to their office to point the error out (oh the irony in that mistake!) but, sadly, the Arab that I spoke to didn’t seem to comprehend the problem....

[WB1900]

as long it’s correctly written in Arabic - who cares about anything else

[Un_Limited]

Who wants to make a bet that, every single one of the above who is complaining, given the choice will suck on the biggest Arabic toenail just to get his/hers 300k USD per year package in EK back!!

[Eric Hartman]

A TRE inclusive of schooling for 3 kids maybe earned that before the corona...Mind you, now they’re paid 50% for the sims...A regular line captain nowhere near that. Not even close...

[Whitemonk Returns]

Genuinely curious, what would a regular line captain earn in normal times? Had Corona not come along and ruined us all a regular LCC line captain with bonus would have been looking at close to £140,000, plus pension. Add another 15 if you had any LTC or TRI qualifications. I do genuinely believe the good times will come back although slower than we had hoped.

If there is anything positive that will come out of this it has exposed two myths, seniority is meaningless and the idea of being loyal to a company is complete nonsense, I'll be going to the highest bidder on 5 years and I hope many will be doing the same with their skills.

[Eric Hartman]

Its all on their website. Not as much as many believe....

[NowThatsFunny]

If there is anything positive that will come out of this it has exposed two myths, seniority is meaningless and the idea of being loyal to a company is complete nonsense

Do you mean it took this event for you to realise that?

[BANANASBANANAS]

I left Emirates as a line captain last year. The effective measure of salary is the amount you can save each month. We lived fairly simply in Dubai and saved around GBP7k pcm for 10 months of the year. The remaining 2 months 'savings' were spent on holidays. Of course, profit share (if any) added to that figure and Covid-19 pay cuts detracted from it. I don't think I could do that in UK on 140k pa gross. But, no pay rise in the years before Covid-19, the introduction of VAT, Covid-19 pay cuts all made Dubai a more and more expensive, diificult and frustrating place to live.

Market forces will always prevail and while we have thousands of highly experienced unemployed pilots looking for any flying position, terms and conditions will continue to head south. I have no idea when that situation will change other than to agree that it will be some time yet. I recently looked at a B777 Captain position in Africa. Eight weeks on, two weeks off, questionnable accommodation and a salary of US$3k pcm. No thank you, but there will be no shortage of applicants.

[Whitemonk Returns]

NowThatsFunny

No, but I'm hoping it has opened others eyes. Seniority has been a plague on freedom of movement for decades, hopefully it is now dead apart from a handful of the legacy carriers.

@BANANAS am I reading correctly that as a Captain you were able to save £7000 per month? That seems extremely high but well done you!

[fatbus]

Ill back what he says about 7K / month saving as a Captain.

[felixthecat]

Yes I would agree, and even a bit more, but no life

[fatbus]

Depended on expectations. We made the best of it . Many great friends .

[BANANASBANANAS]

felixthecat

We enjoyed our time in Dubai but didn't do Friday brunches, only had the one car (no loan), didn,t have a boat and socialised at each others houses with barbies etc rather than at restaurants. We just saved what we didn't spend (contrary to Warren Buffets advice to spend only what you didn't save) and it averaged out at a fraction over 7k pcm without really having to try.

[nolimitholdem]

£7000 savings/month for a captain with a few years in sounds perfectly reasonable to me. I'm thinking that assumes wife/kids, which obviously change the cost structure a bit. I was a single captain at the time and could fairly easily save about 12,000 USD/month on average without a monk's lifestyle. But if you wanted the boat and Ferrari well, yeah, the savings would be harder to accumulate. Then there were a few really uh, unique folks who chose to live in basically a cardboard box in the desert and live like paupers to save even more.

I just chose to live somewhere in the middle between the rockstars and the "vows of poverty" crowd. (The former outnumbered the latter by about 100 to 1, btw.)

[Whitemonk Returns]

Very helpful information thank you 👍

[BANANASBANANAS]

Those figures do not include Provident Fund which would be worth another GBP1.5k pcm

[Mr Good Cat]

It's quite interesting to see the different levels of optimism across the message boards. I guess I'm a glass-half-empty sort of guy but I can't really see any movement in the job market for pilots for 2-3 years, and even then I would expect airlines to push through some sort of B-scale for new joiners, in an attempt to claw back the billions lost. I think we have a tough few years ahead (relative to what we once had). As long as we all have jobs again I guess that's the first step, and let's hope that happens sooner rather than later. Nice to see some people aren't as negative as me though!

[BANANASBANANAS]

I am not far off 60 so have, from a financial point of view, come to regard redundancy as early retirement. That said, I do miss the fliying and the people. So if something comes along which would allow me to fly or instruct again I would certainly consider it.

I guess the financial peace of mind comes from being sensible with savings during the quarter of a century that I have been an expat. Not judging those whose first thoughts might be towards a boat and a Ferrari but maybe something just to keep in the back of their minds.

[Snake man]

From the last few posts on magnificent savings made every month in EK, I would say you guys are well on your way to guaranteeing a pay cut. Just a thought.

[nolimitholdem]

Based on what logic? That EK managers had no idea what their pilots were paid until it was posted on PPrune? lol

Salaries are based on market dynamics - supply and demand, so a little more rationally: yes, T&C could be under pressure with the current excess of unemployed pilots. But bear in the mind the reason for the glut is an externality, a once in a century global pandemic, and as that eases the pendulum swings the other way. I've been through a few such cycles and no, it isn't "different this time". Extreme and prolonged, yes. But don't let recency bias take hold and think this lasts forever.

From your "you guys" comment you evidently weren't able to take part in the "magnificent savings", better luck in the next boom.

[Emma Royds]

On the topic of money, given that Ramadan and the Eid break are now over, shouldn't the annual results be announced by now?

[pitonga]

If you are still flying, the year result has been amazing!

[EchoKilla]

This pretty much sums it up

[BTAP]

Emma Royds

I think so - I'm pretty sure we normally hear something before now... End of the month maybe?

[Emma Royds]

To be announced next week apparently.

[Eric Hartman]

BTAP

Normally is the key word. I am sure if they could not ever post 2020-21 annual report they would do it. It is going to be an interesting read...

[Visual Procedures]

What's to be that interesting? That the company has made a small fortune in aviation flying freight over the last 6 months after the first 6 months of COVID devastation?

That's not interesting at all.

We all know how to make a small fortune in aviation. Start with a large one.

Their comments will be all just forecasts. All forecasts are just complete guess work in this era of uncertainty. Don't get me wrong, I personally, hope the optimistic ones come true. But there'll be no hat hanging in my future.. I'll just hang on to it.. For Justin..

[Emma Royds]

By all means, call me the pessimist but I suspect the company will have lost an enormous fortune rather than having made a small one. Prior to COVID, cargo represented less than 15% of the airline's total revenue.

[fatbus]

In the past when not record breaking news it was kept low key . Just a corporate announcement with links to the details . I agree , more than likely a loss , to be expected as well.

[WB1900]

It is only to see how they want to cover the obvious and honestly I want to see how much worth it was to ruin 1000s employees lives

[Eric Hartman]

It is a business, any business will try to cut costs as much as possible in such dire circumstances...I don't understand why you guys are taking it personally...

[Mach.888]

”personally”.... how could we not.
With a ****** up management team that rather destroys the life of a quarter of a loyal workforce instead of lowering the salary to say 60% and keeping everyone on.
Every one of us wouldn’t have had any problems surviving for 2 years on say... 30000AED.
As Simon Sinek said, “It’s better that we should all suffer a little than any of us should have to suffer a lot.”

[flyfast123]

Really!

So I work my ass off on the 777 all year for 60% salary whilst those on the big bird fleet sit around on 60% pay having bbq and enjoying life. That’s not even close to real world.

I have lost many good friends and have absolute sympathy and compassion for those suffering but let’s be realistic. EK is a business. They will do what they need to. And to keep harping on about dipping into reserves or comparing them to a European legacy is ridiculous. They can do as they wish.

if we don’t like, we have a choice. We knew what we joined

[Oldaircrew]

Eric Hartman

not so much what was done, more a matter of how it was done.

no integrity,
no class and
no compassion.

[EchoKilla]

It is shocking they still kept majority of middle management doing pretty much nothing at all. Pilots make up an airline not middle management unless you work in the gulf. The sad part is - all that is left working and holding a job are not pilots nor engineers / just the sycophants. But it’s your fault you called in sick because if you didn’t safety would have been hampered. Who needs safety when you have wads of cash

[nervous_novice]

Anybody know the numbers for the next culling ?

[nimrodjoe]

flyfast123

So you would rather everyone on the 380 fleet made redundant rather than even entertaining a temporary pay cut? That’s great. You are the embodiment of the issues in the Middle East. An embarrassment to the pilot community.

[3Greens]

flyfast123

well, hopefully you’ll be on the correct fleet during the next downturn too and won’t be complaining when karma bites you on that overworked 777 ass.
Utterly disgusting that you couldn’t entertain a temporary paycut to keep colleagues in employment. Shame this forum isn’t anonymous when posters like you come along.

[D9009]

There was a guy on the CX forum with the same views, very very selfish. It's the opposite of being part of a team and aircrew are meant to be team members.

[Eric Hartman]

3Greens

Keep colleagues in employment? What does that mean? Employment is when you have to provide some sort of services for an agreed reward...And pilots always think they are the most important employees for some weird reason. Talk to your colleagues in other departments, ask how many were let go. NONE of them has ever proposed to keep everyone employed at the expense of others...The socialism does not exist, my friend. You joined an expat airline without unions and expect the same treatment as Lufthansa or Delta pilots. Maybe you should have joined Lufthansa or Delta then?

[14 6]

flyfast123

Hard, but very true words.

There are people under the illusion that should a portion of the productive work force volunteer a pay-cut it might somehow result in the unproductive workers being paid. The idea might be noble, but not realistic. This is a business, not a charity. What bothers me more is that we have been surrounded by poverty and hardship long before the virus, but yet not a single call for people to give up salaries to alleviate the plight of others. Amazing how blind eyes had been turned in the past, but yet now that it has hit close to home.

[Emma Royds]

The uncomfortable reality here is that EK will need less pilots as it emerges from the pandemic than it did before hand. Even if there was a pay cut to subsidise those not flying, it would be simply kicking the can down the road. I don't have any views about the idea of taking a pay cut to help others since my question would be how long would we implement this pay cut for? Would it be months or even years? Many of those pilots that were recently recalled on unpaid leave are unfortunately sitting doing very little after being rechecked back to the line. The company had grossly misjudged that the UK would open up last week to inbound travel from the UAE and the company was planning on around half a dozen 380 flights to the UK every day by the end of May. Understandably, there is growing unease for those still on unpaid leave. One engineer in DXB told me last month that we already have a handful of 380s being broken up for spares now and with the majority of the fleet having sat idle for over a year now, many have damaged cabin fixtures due to intense heat damage. It will probably take many working hours and dirhams to get these aircraft serviceable again. Storing them in the UAE has proved to be a disastrous decision.

I was made redundant a few years before I joined EK and I remember it vividly like it was yesterday. I have felt the same bewilderment and frustration at having questions remaining unanswered. But life has to go on and you cannot take it personally. To do so only limits your ability to move on and there is life after Emirates and as pilots, we have lots to offer the world outside of the flight deck. We all worked hard for our ATPLs and providing you keep them current, your licence will always be there for you when the industry picks up again.

[Oldaircrew]

14 6

Ha! I bet you anything EK management would have said “thank you very much, great idea” and culled the workforce afterwards anyway.

[14 6]

Spot on! Exactly what I have been saying all along.

[WB1900]

Eric Hartman

Seriously?

so why did Lufthansa classic, OS,Swiss Not Fire 1 single person ?
apperently you are another guy having a job and blasting about „guys go and move on“
WOW ? And yes I take it personal as there are guy left in the company who have not spend even half the time there. And yes I take it personal as a company has some responsibility towards employees and not bluntly lie to the media while sending out email and having a HR matrix running In the background while still assuring employees with hope for protection.
and yes they had a responsibility to consider a variety of options with less dramatic outcome, a path they not even closely considered to go.
i cannot wait to see the reports numbers which will for sure show how much useless their action have been

[WB1900]

Emma Royds

i like to ask a question
which qualification do have to offer for the non aviation industries?
or which of your skills might be useful from your point of view?

[14 6]

Well, you have leadership, situational awareness, workload management and communication skills.......that will come in handy in any industry.

[Emma Royds]

WB1900

An ex EK friend that left during the pandemic decided to do his MBA. One of the requirements for enrolling in the MBA course was that you had to have three years of experience in business management, which he didn't have. After he described his daily job at EK to the person from the university who was assessing his application, my friend was told he more than met the requirements of what was needed.

There are not many jobs where you are given responsibility for the safe and efficient running of a multi-hundred million dollar asset.

[nimrodjoe]

When are they shutting down this thread? I thought it was getting deleted? I think it should be done sooner rather than later.
It’s getting ridiculous. Can’t stand reading all the daft comments from 777 clowns who think they know how EK works and are experts in Asian aviation. Most of whom don’t have the ability to work anywhere else other than Asia.

[Eric Hartman]

Clowns? Really? I guess that is a very constructive discussion. Call everyone with a different point of view a clown and ask to close the thread. Great example of excellent communication skills....

WB1900, simply because EK is NOT a major unionised company if you haven't figured that out yet. They did what they had to do. Were you expecting to keep your job indefinitely with 90% of your fleet grounded? You did not come here to work for a major heavily unionised airline with a command prospect in 20+ years. You came here for a quick command, large widebody and to make quick money. Your intentions were far from altruistic when you joined.

[Xulu]

Emma Royds

LMAO. "Ok, we'll reluctantly take your $50k. Welcome to Sharjah University"

[WB1900]

Eric Hartman

wrong, went there because the airline I worked for was about to go bust, and did it a year later. Went because they actually contacted me after 6-7 years not even updating my first application.
i did not have Intension on a quick command in the first place - it was a well paid job with the benefit of maybe a quick command, and looked better than what I had on hands back home. It actually was a last choice, better than no job and only sh........ LCC offers.

I am not the guy swapping jobs easily - yes my mistake to trust these clowns and yes I expected a little more, than that Kind of :mad: Show - nevertheless I am not a union lover at all.

[WB1900]

Emma Royds

You did not really answer the questions.
Sorry, that’s to go to school again, it’s not a job. Wait until he has his degree and is applying for Job. The first thing they ask about is his expierence in the Field. Of course the MBA school will take him. I could join an Aviation MBA course after the years of flying with just a simple application but does not give u a job right a way.
I hold a degree in electronics and computer science but after 3 decades of flying they are outdated in terms of experience, therefore it does not count much. An Aviator holds nothing in hands to profile such jobs. I hope you are still an aviator and you don’t have to face the Reality of finding a none aviation job.

[WB1900]

Well, you have leadership, situational awareness, workload management and communication skills.......that will come in handy in any industry.

i totally agree that a pilot has exactly those skills.

In a non aviation Industrie these Skills are secondary Skills which benefiting your knowledge towards - whatever the Industrie does.
You have this skills based on your aviation knowledge not as an IT, Electronics, vehicle engineer, tax laywer, Finanz expert, or sales agent for industrial machinery
thes jobs require university degree which you not just simple get in the evening school.
if u have one these degree above mentioned skills push you definitiv forward in your career but, them alone does not make u valuable candidate for jobs, simple because you don’t have the profund knowledge of your new profession.

and pilots if asked about their skills are always giving exactly that answer, not one so far answered the question with a name of a degree. Yet alone this answer shows that you might be confident about these skills, but not confident about what to do with it outside aviation
Pilots not the only individuals with these skills, but mostly without any other up to date knowledge beside aviation. Pilots are highly specialized in aviation but that’s it.

[fatbus]

WB1900 , in that case all the best in your futher pilot endeavours. You might be surprised at some of your colleagues using their pilot skills to other uses and doing so rather effectively.
The horrible effects of this pandemic are not going to go away anytime soon. I think all will benefit from trying to be positive and supportive. Negativity will just wear you out .

[WB1900]

was not meant negative, more a fact check.

I would wish that these skills would have a much higher acceptance.
i agree that these skills are more than supportive and they are important
and some people selling themselves better than others, but my experience is very negative indeed because so far I was rejected for the mentioned reasons - missing the experience in the field.
now I try to do my own little thing.

there is an acknowledgement of the pilots skills but only as a top up to your desired job.

I had years of experience in none aviation jobs but just simple to far in the past.
i am happy for ever single person who gets his foot into a new door, but still I am convinced that the majority will have the same problem and I am also convinced that those people who made it have other job experience outside of aviation and are not new to what they are doing now. I might be wrong but the majority is in the field they where before as well. Some maybe had a good idea which they are following now but that’s only a few. So far I know only 3 guys who made a successful step into new adventures - the rest is pretty grounded.

[krismiler]

The sad truth is that if you’ve been flying for the last thirty years and are made redundant in your fifties, then your future career options are very limited. By the time normality returns you will be too old to justify the expense of retraining for a few years before retirement and too old to start over in another field.

Aviation skills are highly specialised and whilst some such as leading a team are useful, you are usually either over or under qualified when applying for a new job. Driving seems to be an area that unemployed pilots have moved into, everything from combine harvesters to busses to dump trucks and delivery work.

Under thirty, you can retrain, around forty and you’ll be picked up again when things improve. Cross the half century and it’s difficult, over sixty and it’s retirement.

[14 6]

Yet alone this answer shows that you might be confident about these skills, but not confident about what to do with it outside aviation

What I am trying to say is that you have been trained to think and react rationally under difficult situations. I am not suggesting you write down those skills on a cv and expect to get hired. I am rather suggesting you apply those skills right now to help you through these difficult times. Who knows what might happen! All of us are in some form of predicament under these current conditions. I just feel we must be able to somehow use those skills we have been trained in and apply it to life outside aviation.

[Emma Royds]

WB1900

Sorry if you felt that I didn't answer your question but I note in your earlier post that you mentioned qualifications and skills and I thought the example of my friend was a good example of how skills used in this job, can be highly regarded elsewhere to allow one to enhance their qualifications. Incidentally, his MBA has nothing to do with aviation.

If you feel your existing degree doesn't count for much and is outdated, have you asked yourself what can you do to enhance what you can offer a potential employer and increase your chances of employment? There will be former colleagues who are taking the time to upskill and develop any non-flying qualifications they may already have. Nowadays, it seems as if most career changes normally require some element of further training anyway, regardless of what is on your CV already.

I know it may seem like I am preaching from the comfort of a flying job but I have been made redundant before and I know it can be a lonely and frustrating experience.

[glofish]

Stop comparing ME carriers with those in the EU. We’ll see that even the ones that were mentioned as example will start firing now: LH, SWISS, OS, etc.. I bet the nice "pay cut to keep all on board" will not be welcomed there either ….. It’s a cut throat industry across the board and no place for misunderstood socialism.
If pilots really have those above average qualities we so much like to boast, then we should be quite able to readapt outside our industry. Or maybe we took our “sit back and relax” too literally? Or maybe our recent overall qualities have been diluted/recruited to lower standards and we no longer impress others that much? Pick one!
After the initial shockwave of dismissals, i told my dear friend who was hit, that he might be somewhat lucky after all. Being retained on a ridiculous plan, with honestly only a small chance of getting recalled, might lull you into false hopes and fading chances of being able to move on. Plus the eligible spots out there will have been filled with those former colleagues! Reading the actual bitching on ppr, compared to the beginning of the catastrophe just seems to prove my point.
Take the money and run, or wait silently for the eventual guillotine to fall or maybe not, but don’t point your finger at those who are still working. Three of them point in another direction.

[Fired600]

Still no annual results? Would have thought there would have been less to report this year.........

[Xulu]

They need a bit more time in the oven this year.

[nimrodjoe]

https://www.thenationalnews.com/business/aviation/emirates-recalls-some-furloughed-pilots-as-operations-ramp-up-1.1232440

[White Knight]

In November 2020, Emirates said it was offering some pilots unpaid leave of 12 months, (https://www.thenationalnews.com/business/emirates-offers-some-pilots-unpaid-leave-amid-covid-19-headwinds-1.1106136)

One way of putting it I suppose:rolleyes:

[WB1900]

One way of putting it I suppose:rolleyes:

Sounds funny
”we offer you unpaid leave, which you have to take and if you don’t return when we call u, you face disciplinary action” - such much to volunteering

[SOPS]

Sounds funny
”we offer you unpaid leave, which you have to take and if you don’t return when we call u, you face disciplinary action” - such much to volunteering
Sounds like typical EK.. never miss a chance for a final written verbal warning.

[WB1900]

Sounds like typical EK.. never miss a chance for a final written verbal warning.

what I hear I needs much less than that for a FWVW.

[Xulu]

The lack of recall for unpaid leave people is a real concern. To me, that says they won't be trying to capture/compete on market share, they are just trying to survive. There is no possible way to get everyone back flying by next Summer. Not forgetting that natural attrition rates of ~120/year continue.

The fact they still haven't put out this expression of interest form for leavers, shows it's very far from happening, if ever. Perhaps they will just switch to the unabated flow of zero-hour kids coming from the academy to fulfil future needs.

EK has always suffered from lack of investment in the right places. Not recalling crew early enough will be their most costly; forever losing experience and capacity. The long-term effects could be catastrophic.

Without re-joiners, ME3 will have a tough time ever getting grounded assets back in the air. And the longer they wait, the less will be willing or capable to return to the ME. After kicking people out their home, selling/shipping their possessions, and forcing them to re-establish themselves in a new country, with new schools, new job, new friends, back with the wider Family - good luck convincing the aggrieved Wife to go back.

There are very few decision makers in EK, and none of them are in Flight Ops. They truly think they will snap their fingers and 1000 crew will rush back and be on line with a couple months notice. And for lower salary too :=

[aussiefarmer]

I agree.

I think EK management has already decided to dramatically shrink the airline, something they will never publicly admit. Focus is now on survival, they are willing to let QR take a big chunk of market share.

[Fired600]

Something strange is happening for sure. Allowing the airline to shrink and Qatar to take market share will be a huge loss of face.

[TBL Warrior]

Have you not noticed the slide of hand in front of your eyes ? I.e the injecting of a narrow body fleet into the operation https://simpleflying.com/emirates-flydubai-complement-not-competition/

Strange - not really, logical- unlikely, necessary DEFINITELY

EK won’t be breaking any unusual trend as of late, just take a look at what other all widebody operators are doing; CX took Tigers 321’s, SG Silks 73’s, Scoot Tiger’s 320 etc

The old supply and demand chestnut strikes again.

[fatbus]

Fly Dubai is now a hybrid airline! Not so LLC anymore ,never was but Hybrid is a new term .

[Xulu]

Well spotted.

Emirates have in fact started hiring again, by recalling all Fly Dubai crew through the back door.

Smaller planes, cheaper pilots.

How long till they merge them into EGHQ for briefings, and crew bus “efficiencies”?

Suddenly, it all makes sense.

[bringbackthe80s]

Xulu

As bad as it is for all of us, the fact is that people who know more than me and you unfortunately do not see it that way

[Xulu]

Yes, the same people who had the foresight to order 150 a380s and start a 7 runway airport at DWC.

Anyway, what I said just above makes the most sense to me. They’ve likely decided to delay the a380 recovery and replace capacity with excess FZ.

[fatbus]

I don't think it's necessarily the fault of the 380 as much as volume of seats . CX basically having the same issues and it's their 777 that are going to feel the brunt .

[WB1900]

And there is another costly issue approaching to EK.
Having parked all the 380 in the summer sun, apparently for the second season, will leave some costly damage on the exterior and especially on the interior as it is melting away.
won’t be easy for them to bring those airplanes back fast or any soon.

[WB1900]

TBL Warrior

Agree but not in all points
tiger, SG, silk are LCC if I am correct

if integrating an LCC and name it a hybrid airline is a very difficult.
why- because selling premium ticket to someone and than fly him on LCC seats might have a negative impact on trust in the product.
EK is very central for LR flights but not so for small airplane feeding concept because there is easily a travel time of 3-5 hours on a 737 just to get on and a LR flight to Asia, Australia or the US. Compared to Europe where 737 sized airplanes feeding flights of max 2 hours, usually just a little over an hour. That’s a huge difference for the targeted clients

I have seen that concept falling on airlines which had a lower promise on the excellence in travel experience. It can cost an airline a lot of reputation and therefore it is complicated and it’s also a danger for a long lasting success.

that concept can largely backfire on an airline

[TBL Warrior]

WB1900

You speak in future tense, whilst it’s contemporaneous in nature, and has been for sometime.

Insofar, you can book a full fare (J or Y) EK ticket (see below) and be traveling in a “LCC seat”, for the uninitiated I guess this may come as a surprise….

as Xulu rightly suggested, 380 work/jobs given to FZ LWOP crew. To rob Peter to pay Paul if you like….

[bringbackthe80s]

WB1900

Most major airlines around the world are doing exactly that. Something tells me they can’t be all clueless.

[Xulu]

The solution to all their problems was staring them in the face from across the airfield.

EK have effectively wet leased half of FZ rather than bring back the a380 in meaningful numbers.

Crew that are already in Dubai with visas, current in training, cheaper contracts.

FZ has small, efficient, underused aircraft.

Extending the old 777 leases planned for retirement was the clue.

Already sharing routes, infra, codes, terminals, ground services.

It kicks the a380 another year down the road until capacity returns for both airlines.

[Dropp the Pilot]

Awww...some people think the A380 is coming back.

Bless.

[WB1900]

not the numbers - it’s basically a spare part depot in the dessert for a significantly small number of 380s

[FLEX/MCT]

You really do get a little hard on when talking about then end of the 380 don’t you? In spite of it destroying the careers of a couple of thousand of your former colleagues...

[nimrodjoe]

Is Dubai still on the UK’s red list?
How did that happen? Didn’t the EK big boss say they will be off the list “VERY SOON”?
Another 3 week wait for them not to be removed again!
Just shows how out of touch these desert clowns are with reality.
They’ve vaccinated the whole country with a vaccine that doesn’t work, they expect to just be allowed to fly in people from all of the planet? Rubbish.

[nimrodjoe]

Dropp the Pilot

Timmy says they’ll all be flying by the end of the year, or something like that.
Are you calling him a liar?
Surly not!

[Joker11]

FLEX/MCT

The only ones destroying careers are EK management by buying 100 of A380 which is now coming back to bite them in the ass.

Why you think the likes of AF,LH,QR, SQ and CZ are dropping them or are trying to drop them like a hot potato. The aircraft is proving too large and too expensive.

Lets face it. The A380 was dying long before COVID. COVID is simply the final nail in the coffin.

The A380 is a European mega project that failed. Airbus gambled on predictions that never came to fruitition.

As the saying goes. You win some. You lose some. In this case Airbus lost.

[nimrodjoe]

glofish

What are you on about?

[WB1900]

bringbackthe80s

But these airlines are not bragging about their excellence of air travel
It is not wrong to go that path but an airline going that step becomes an airline not better than any other and will gain some normal price segment client (going in quantity) and looses premium clients
As I said how many people will fly from Europe 5 hours on a 737 to go on a LR/ULR trip after.

[WB1900]

nimrodjoe

he said also most of them will fly by begin of summer - than late summer - and begin of autumn and now by the end of the year
question which year ?

[WB1900]

FLEX/MCT

just as a summary what happen in EK over the last two decades

A310 pilots got betrayed over their total hours when the 330 was introduced - especially FO lost a lot on upgrades
A330/340 was more and more driven into the short range plane and at the end who ever got stuck on it lost a lot of time towards upgrade or some captains even their command because flying the 330/340 was not good enough towards the 380
today most of the 380 pilots have lost their career and jobs
so EK has proven that the hardest hits career and job wise are going against airbus pilots
not one B777 pilot could sing a song having anywhere near the same story
Looks like an awesome management

[squarecrow]

Nimrodjoe, as of today the UK Govt. Redlist shows:
UAE,
Oman,
Qatar,
Bahrain (Still on Amber until 8th June then Red.)

[Fuel-Off]

WB1900

Apart from those 777 pilots that transfered to the A380 in early 2020 (because the 380 was seen then as the growth machine and 15 triples were set to go) and were summarily let go shortly after that.

Or the 777 pilots that had a prior long term sickness (how dare they) and had that held against them as they were made redundant in the first wave.

[fatbus]

Pilots have short term memories! Many 777 pilots culled in the first wave and not just for long term sickness .

[Fired600]

WB1900

I beg to differ! Senior captain with the company many many years. 1 surgery that was company sanctioned and necessary, no other blips, letters or warnings........ thanks very much bye bye! Think that’s a pretty sad song WB1900. The Airbus guys have been badly treated, but it’s not a competition to see who was screwed over the most.

[transport jock]

As I said how many people will fly from Europe 5 hours on a 737 to go on a LR/ULR trip after.

There are simply a lot of places a widebody cant go that a 737 can go, or doesnt have the demand of a widebody. Thats what makes the tie up so attractive between EK and FZ, I dont think we will ever see a full merger, but there will be closer and closer working togther. The Max interior is way better than the NG interior and that was supposed to bridge the gap between EK standards and a "hybrid/LCC" standards, but of course the grounding of the Max etc didnt help with that. There is also talk of FZ getting a few dedicated freighters which will also help open up new cargo options..

[Xulu]

Yeah - so of course the A380 has already returned to service with some crew recalled. The use of 737's are dependent on FZ not needing them for now, and limited to shorthaul. And will not be able to charge as much for an F pax to sit in a FZ J seat. It's a temporary solution.

With no cash in bank or revenue to secure another 100 aircraft order, EK will be stuck with the A380 for any proper expansion. Aircraft that are costing them to be grounded/maintained, and costing them with repayments, so they may as well use them where viable.

i.e The A380 is uneconomical - but if you take out the costs already spent on and around it - then it's unlikely to be better to scrap them, especially given the supply of free spare parts! Without the A380, they have a terrible hard product.

It's not the end for the Whale, but it does mean they wont need to dump capacity ahead of a global travel recovery. And that's not necessarily a bad thing for all of us in the long-run.

p.s The global travel recovery is still very much on schedule btw. Vaccine programmes continue to accelerate, more vaccines obtain approval. A recent study in Brazil, where they vaccinated 75% of a town at once concluded with dramatic results - that mass vaccination is indeed the silver bullet out of lockdown.

Businesses are even pledging "Zoom-free" days after studies about its psychological impact. Meanwhile those rich enough to travel in the first place, continue to get richer.

[nimrodjoe]

So we have been In a global pandemic for 1 and a half years and you lot have just worked out Emirates is downsizing the airline ? What planet you boys on?

[WB1900]

Fired600

Sorry wasn’t meant as a competition or airbus versus Boeing, just as a summary for what was happing to airbus pilots over the years. I
know that the first wave has also hit a good number on B7 guys for no reason and it’s not more or less bad than for any other ex ek

[Xulu]

nimrodjoe

I think we all realised that the day we got our letters. What happens next depends on future demand.

[aussiefarmer]

Xulu

Thanks for bringing some sense to the discussion Xulu.

Fly Dubai integration might actually bring A380s return forward. It's all about feeding the hub and economies of scale. B737s do not compete with A380s.
Totally different product, range and routes with a variety of pax segments.

When demand recovers, most if not all A380s will fly. EK will certainly look for their replacement but this crisis is going to have an impact in their future ability to purchase frames - particularly when whale residual values are close to zero.

[fatbus]

Owners will desperately want to recover losses at all costs . Same as Dubai infrastructure- revenue before expenditures, aka greed ! This winter recall of redundant pilots ? Guesses? Limited number of LWOP guys being called back now . Not that it's a huge market but I was surprised at the very low vaccination rate in Japan . Anyone have any insight?

[motley flight crue]

I think your completely deluded if you think all the 380’s will be operational again in large numbers. This was the perfect excuse for EK to get rid of the massive burden of too many 380’s, hence the mass layoffs of pilots. Personally I’m glad to be out of there and lose the Stockholm syndrome I had. Wouldn’t go back if they asked (honestly).

[Xulu]

EK does need to get to a certain size so it can pay off debt and service the Dubai economy. Ideally they'd be flush with cash, able to order another 100 widebodies and have them delivered alongside 1000 type ratings within the next two years, but they can't.

It's a thorn in their side, but they are stuck with the A380, and they are stuck with the debt incurred. More debt can be taken on or re-financed with fresh revenue, but dramatically downsizing and losing half their revenue capability is not an option. I don't think the Gov agrees COVID is "a perfect excuse" to scrap $20bn of assets that is to date only fractionally paid off or leased. Let's not forget, they are still set to receive many more frames.

You cannot just pull this thorn out or pretend it doesn't exist. Yes they might only break even, or run at a small loss while the debt winds down - but it's better than spending another $20bn on premature replacement aircraft.

Again, they have already incurred most of the debt/cost involved with an expansive A380 operation, and will be very much hoping that demand picks up again to service this debt until they can suitably replace the fleet.

[aussiefarmer]

Exactly, and don’t forget that whilst it makes all sense for airlines such as EY or AF to retire their single digit whale fleets, it does not mean it makes sense for EK.

EK was reasonably profitable before the pandemic despite their massive A380 fleet and that’s because of economies of scale which perfectly complements the hub model.

If you fill up an A380, it is almost as economical to run as 2 B787s when looking at fuel burn per seat mile (only 5% worse) That does not take into account the savings when operating 1 vs 2 frames or 100 vs 200 in terms of ground staff, crew, facilities, airport fees etc etc.

And, even A380 haters agree that the onboard product is unmatchable.

So, in summary, yes, most if not all A380s will fly again as long as demand recovers to 2019 levels within the next couple of years. They might want to bring forward retirement of the older frames if recovery takes longer than expected though.

[White Knight]

I think the ‘delta’ series of 380s have come to the end of their useful life now; that’ll leave some 90 airframes to get running again although I believe that currently approx 33 are being rotated so are up to speed for operations.

[Joker11]

https://www.thenationalnews.com/uae/meet-the-furloughed-dubai-pilots-charting-a-temporary-career-as-butchers-1.1234702

No comment 🤦‍♂️🤣

[TBL Warrior]

The single tear rolls down my cheek (Sarcasm).

This is as bad as the QF hero’s driving buses in north SYD. In turn, taking a job away from someone who actually needed it, just because they didn’t want to stay at home with the wife.🤮https://youtu.be/44tmMcOqhkQ


The world is expected to express pity upon us because, why ? We collectively have managed to swindle a 6 figure salary, housing, medical, provident fund and schooling for our children and yet have no pot to p1ss in? Disgraceful.

I’ve yet to see anyone express any sympathy for the thousands of migrant workers we’ve all ferried back to third world countries with nothing, yet we demand that they feel remorse for us!?

I doubt anyone would look twice if a RTA driver was wearing his uniform after being furloughed due to COVID, was working as a butcher. And to think anything less than they are crazy would be an understatement.

Yet, the question one needs to ask is; why we feel compassion/heart ache for the privileged & not others?

I guess the RTA taxi driver has no family, no house and no bills and is not as distinguished as we think we are - right?

I wonder what the public would think of us if they knew our friends the Butchers’ prov. fund/EOSB, and old mate QF’s AON/Super was a 6 figure pay day?

the Human animal, an interesting specimen to say the least.

[Emma Royds]

Good on them I say. We can poke fun at them as much as we want but they have pushed themselves out of their comfort zone and tried something new and I applaud them for that. I don't think I would have the courage to wear my epaulettes behind a butcher's counter but having done so has likely proved to be a resounding public relations success.

[Joker11]

Don't get me wrong. I don't look down on anyone who lost they job and are now reevaluating their career. Accepting anything that comes they way. We all need to feed our families. I would even scrub toilets or have in the past.
Heck in Germany a few pilots are becoming train drivers.
What I am annoyed with is this "Look at me I was a pilot for a world class airline. Now I am driving buses. How special am I"
Wearing epaulettes and getting filmed while working in a butchery is a cheap PR stunt by EK to soften the blow and deny reality. Which is that hundreds of pilots are finding themselves in a crisis and unemployed. Which is the doing of EK themselves.

[geeup]

How is it EKs doing?
COVID?

Lots of other pilots (over 100,000 is a number being tossed around) from other airlines have been sacked, redundant, furlong, LWOP, stood down etc

[nimrodjoe]

Joker11

I don’t think I’ve ever read such rubbish.

There are guys are living out of dustbins and these boys playing at being butchers and what a pat on the back for it?

All this piece of absolute horse manure fluff does, is distract from how EK have handled this pandemic.

Well done boys! Give yourselves a hand! Look how well everyone is doing!
Look how EK are taking care of their furloughed pilots.
Look how they are able to use this time off to do the things they love. Braiiii!!!!

Always the same rubbish coming out of Dubai. And always the same “type A personalities” are leading the charge.

[TBL Warrior]

An exceptional example of how we have an elevated perception of ourselves, this utopian society (the art of selflessness I.e go fund me) conflicts with the capitalist socioeconomic system we live, and will die by.

Stephen Hawking’s suggestion that we are still too primitive in our evolution seems accurate.

I respectfully decline to engage in any name calling, and henceforth graciously concede.

[Emma Royds]

I don’t think I’ve ever read such rubbish.

Surely no worse than the rumour and speculation that is published every Thursday afternoon? :}

[VThokie2]

TBL Warrior

I agree. This is what happens when people wrap their self identity with their equipment, title and status at their employer (exacerbated by an employer that is not conducive to a healthy work/life balance). If they end up at the bottom of another carrier will they insist their new superiors call them “captain”?! I wonder if those Qantas pilots turned bus drivers tell people to refer to them as “captain” in their new vocation? I’ve even seen people showing off their tattoos of 380s or 4 stripes which is not in any way sane. It’s a small minority but some EK egos are intense. This is not a healthy place to be mentally. I feel sorry for all those impacted regardless. This last year has shown there’s much more to life than your career.

[Joker11]

acryingshame

Read my second comment again!

[Joker11]

geeup

I don't know. EK dropping stafg like hot potatos?

[nimrodjoe]

acryingshame

You should read the previous comments before you jump down people’s throats.
Clown.

Its not about resilience. It’s about how well furloughed EK pilots are doing.
All it does is distract from how EK have managed the last year.

You are the clueless moron you speak of.

[nimrodjoe]

Emma Royds

I apologise.
I shall rephrase.
I don’t think I’ve ever read such rubbish, since last Thursday afternoon.

[Pistolpete47]

Most people in aviation are great people to be around. Ready with helpful advice.

The rest are on Pprune.

[Jakub_738]

How does a roster on 777 looks at the moment? How many flights per months, how long are the layovers?

[14 6]

acryingshame

Calm down friend, you are going to blow an o-ring and that is never a good thing!

[Flyboy_73NG]

Gents with flying slowly picking up , what is your sense about a potential re-hire on the T7.

[fatbus]

Current claims are the 380 guys that are just getting recurrent are already planned low hours for July /Aug. all major hub restrictions dependant.i don't think you will see 8 daily 380s to London any time this year or even next .
777? Number of AC operations for Pax increasing or deacreasing ? Pax to ad hoc freighters changing back or remaining as make shift freighters. Just because 777s are flying does not indicate Pax loads returning to "normal" Some people are quick to say the planned 777 retirements this year @15 are not happening , is there proof or is that just a typical pprune rumore / wishful thinking . Probably the same who claim the 380 will never fly in big numbers .

Time will tell.

[Flyboy_73NG]

Well the load factor if I am not wrong is fluctuating between 20-40% . And there has been a formal communication that 10 777 frames are being retained .I think it al depends on South Asia , specially India opening up its borders, which will take a bit longer if not sooner . There were some rumours wihin the company that a few 777 guys might be re-called / re- hired , yet again let’s see how this situation unfolds .. hope we all find our selves flying again , wherever that might be . Apparently the ‘company ‘ has also communicated that pilots can move out of company accommodation like the policy was earlier to buy and move out .

[Flyboy_73NG]

Jakub_738

they flying a lot , anywhere between 70-95 hours depending on leaves and other duties , layovers are of minimum rest mostly !

[Neektu]

Flyboy_73NG

1. They could also transition some of those poor 380 guys on UL onto the 777;
2. Considering the current situation, I doubt that any sensible pilot would leave company accommodation to buy a property in Dubai.

[Mister Warning]

2. Unless of course you bought earlier, and your property is now empty as Covid eliminated your tenant.
This policy may keep you out of default on your mortgage, and subsequently jail!

[Fuel-Off]

They could also transition some of those poor 380 guys on UL onto the 777

Think the 777 crew numbers will even out as the 200 odd cadets slowly come online over the next few months.

[Fired600]

The experience drain will be huge. So many experienced guys made redundant, yet more slowly leaving, to be replaced with cadets. Not a great recipe.

[RoyHudd]

A recipe for..........?

I for one would now avoid travel on these formerly bloated ME carriers. They are increasing the pilot complements of their jets with locally-produced cadets. Not good, although economically logical. Shades of the Gulf Air A320 episode at BAH, among other "accidents".

[Bindair Dundat]

The spike is aviation disasters in the next few years will be telling. Some of the ULCC and LCC’s that have had the serendipitous good fortune of recruitment of super experienced expat crews made redundant will be the safest in the skies. Oh the irony.

[The Outlaw]

Roy Hudd,

To be fair, I would be careful with that statement. I spent a number of years there and when I was an FO, flew with a number of very good Emirati operators who were very qualified captains. When I became a captain, I flew with many very qualified Emirati FO's with varying degrees's of experience and never felt like any one of them didn't deserve the right to be in the cockpit. Conversely, there have been a number of pilots in both seats from a wide variety of cultures and country's, including the west, that I wondered how they made it through the initial assessment.

I can't speak for the "the other two" but I can say that the standard of training, SOP, OM-A and FCOM compliance was VERY high at EK, I could not argue to the contrary, certainly not in the time I was there.

[Bindair Dundat]

The spike is aviation disasters in the next few years will be telling. Some of the ULCC and LCC’s that have had the unexpected good fortune in recruitment of super experienced expat crews made redundant will be the safest in the skies. Oh the irony.

[Oldaircrew]

The Outlaw

I agree with almost everything you said, except the part about training. I experienced very little proper training whilst there and used my previous training and experience to survive the checking department.

[Fired600]

When the 777 fleet size has remained basically unchanged, but the experience has been let go to fill with inexperienced cadets it’s not a great situation. It doesn’t matter if the cadet is ace of base, they simply don’t have the experience and won’t have for a long time to come.

[The Outlaw]

Oldaircrew

I do agree with that! I did the same.

[fatbus]

Here we go again , blame training for everything. thread drift ?

[EchoKilla]

How many weeks profit share? :8

[Oldaircrew]

fatbus

No blame being laid. Just stating what I experienced.

if the shoe fits.....

[transport jock]

This blaming of the Emirati cadets for future accidents that might or might not happen is getting a bit stupid. From my experience, the Emirati's that chose to become aircrew are there because they have a passion for it and they know there stuff. I have yet to fly with one sub standard local FO, while i cant say the same for expat FO's. Yes we all know the training isnt the best in the ME but that doesnt mean they cant do the job well.

[Evots]

It would be an understatement to say our former colleagues on the 380 have been treated unfairly. That much said for the fortunate (or unfortunate, depending on your view) who remain the present situation on the line and with our managers leaves much to be discussed.

The main point of this thread is to move ahead with the present situation on the the line and in the office. We are currently employed in a country that is not our own, and we have undergone a paradigm shift. Although not all, many of us came for stability, on which the company has defaulted on through no fault of their own. Their actions in managing the crisis were wrong, in no uncertain terms. The use of KPI's was discriminatory towards women, towards age, and those who were unwell.

What I am currently seeing on the line:
A horribly unfair balance of workload. Some people are doing nothing, others are flat out. Despite their words, fleet does nothing to work on this issue.
A complete lack of ability to control your roster every way. The preliminary reintroduction of the standing bid is nothing more than an attempt to manipulate those less aware into thinking that we are making progress. The rostering has been an abject failure to lead from the SVP down. There can be no doubt we are the industry leader here.
Leave being stolen from the most vulnerable among us, the 380 pilots.
Recent terminations due to operational failures on the line with a complete lack of transparency.
Pilots reporting for duty with a questionable level of wellness.
KPI's being used to assess and rank pilots, with meetings to counsel those at the bottom of the rankings.

There will certainly be responses from those who say "how dare you complain" I accept that and acknowledge their frustration.

The reality though remains that we are moving ahead. The company has just posted losses around 6 billion USD. There has been steady stream of "rats off the ship", however for those of us that remain we must stay on the deck. Are we playing with the band, or can the ship be saved? If so, what will the live aboard conditions be like? As of right now, the way I see them, they are untenable.

[Capn Rex Havoc]

Only 22billion …

https://gulfnews.com/business/aviation/dubais-emirates-group-records-dh22b-loss-for-2020-21---its-first-in-more-than-30-years-1.1623737441288

[fatbus]

Not unexpected. Airline operation loss 20 bil vs 1 bil profit 2019/20. The airline was never the huge profit generator but seems to be capable of producing huge losses. Now we will see how committed Dubai is to aiding in The EK recovery. Of interest was Ahmed's comment "patchy recovery" , do you think that indicates that things will be slower than STC claims ?

[Capn Rex Havoc]

Has Sheik A - posted that loss on the portal at EK? ie is it official or is it a guesstimate from Gulf News. Any statement been issued from the company to staff?

[beechbum]

Full results available on the Emirates website. As for any statement to staff...no idea!

[White Knight]

Capn Rex Havoc

Email from Sheikh Ahmed on company email to all staff yesterday!

[Mach.888]

So, how many weeks?

[Grumpypilot12]

I’ve been reading this thread since the beginning. First post:

The negative chat about the guys working as butchers is completely ridiculous. Fair play to them, every respect for putting ego aside and rolling up their sleeves.

Slating the Emirati cadets; these guys have worked hard to get where they have. Just like we all did landing our first airline job back in the day. Are we surprised EK want to get some of their own into the right hand seat? Okay they lack experience but cadets fill spots all over the globe, how else are they going to get it? Talk of an impending crash is senseless.

I’ve gone through the 5 stages of grief multiple times after losing my A380 position. Although I didn’t like how it was done, I understand why it was done, especially now the results are out. It’s terrible luck flying completely the wrong aircraft at literally the worst time, during a global pandemic when no one wants to travel.

What to do? Get on with life. Use all those ‘transferable skills’ to do something else and make the most out of the down time before flying picks up again, and it will!

That’s it really. Be bitter and go mad or move on. Fully prepared for the standard nasty pprune backlash/trolling from this post….

[aussiefarmer]

Welcome to the forum and thanks for sharing what many of us think.

We need more contributors like you.

[VThokie2]

Yup the problem was the epaulettes...... absolutely ridiculous.... talk about ego in the extreme, same as TCAS wearing 4 stripes in an EK uniform yet never being an actual EK Captain (perhaps before some of you guys’ times), it’s as if it’s a mental disorder. More power those newfound butchers for shifting and finding a niche in another industry, but their title and rank does not carry over, don’t wear 4 stripes FFS, let this be a lesson everyone to be thankful of what you have while you have it, no matter how high you get in life, take the job seriously by all means but don’t ever take yourself too seriously cause none of us gets out of all this alive.

[nimrodjoe]

Reality is, it’s a sinking ship. Writing is on the wall.
Will be a shadow of its former self going forward.

22.1 billion dirham loss effectively wipes out decades of profit.
Really wording times for the guys still there. The nightmare continue.

[nimrodjoe]

nervous_novice

Why do you have the “I’m new here” badge? You’ve been writing rubbish on here for months.

[fatbus]

Put him on the ignore list , it feels good!

[777boyo]

EK’s finances may not look pretty, but have a look at the Financial Times for 16th June (Lex column, back page, and read the article about Lufthansa. I’m unable to post a link, but here are some extracts.
”Last summer, a €9 billion government bailout was approved by shareholders. This years net debt including pension obligations should hit €18.6 billion”
”Lufthansa expects to cut €3.5 billion of non fuel overheads, roughly 8 per cent. This depends on reducing staff costs by 20 per cent from from 2019 levels, to which Unions have agreed”.

EK is not unique in its current situation. Hopefully things will improve quickly.

[Eric Hartman]

nimrodjoe

Well, Air France-KLM has declared a similar loss, Lufthansa has lost more, Cathay has lost 3 bln USD, BA has already lost 1.2 bln in the first quarter of this year. As a matter of fact, most of the airlines are bleeding money at the moment (if not all). I agree, it is a huge loss and EK will change forever, but it cant go bankrupt unless Dubai goes bankrupt (and its not going to happen). The 777X order is still intact. They might opt for more 787s option, but the number of airframes wont change.

[fatbus]

The 777X was invisioned to replace the 380 , the infamous statement " give me an AC that can do the US west coast with 400 Pax unrestricted and I'll buy 100 ". But currently in a tight situation with parked AC and low on cash . EK support to Dubai ? More brand than dollars . Dubai debt is huge and struggling to service it . We used to joke about Dubai turning back to sand in 20 years .

[Pistolpete47]

Disagree.
They seemed to have done a pretty good job at renegotiaing their loans and at lower interest rates then before. Have plenty of cash to service them.
The return on initial investment has been pretty good and the contribution to Dubai has been immense outside the dividends the government has received.

[Pistolpete47]

Did you actually read the financials or just shooting from the hip?? Yeah they had an injection of $10bAED but so has nearly every major airline in the world. Does a insolvent company have an average interest rate of 3.8% for loans (down from 4.3% the previous year)? Doesn't appear to me as a company in dire straits but what would i know, I only have a BCom in Finance.

[777boyo]

I'd be curious to know what Financial and/or Planning Strategy you would recommend, Nervous Novice? It may well be the case that you're an expert in airline economics, finance and fleet/network planning, so maybe you could enlighten us and Airline bosses all around the globe with your wisdom? What would you do differently that airlines like LH/AF KLM/BA/UA/DL/AA/CX etc and others have missed? You may just be the saviour of the industry...........

[Un_Limited]

Pistolpete47

since you have a BCom in finance am sure that you are aware that partial reporting of financial statement without debt included is a useless tool in assessing a company status! The results published are a mere P/L results and nothing more. There is no way one can find out how the true on going concern of the company or a holistic picture of what the company’s financial status is. The best part is that no expert PPruner will ever know as they are not legally bound to show the full financial results. So whatever anyone says about the future financial viability of EK is not solid but a mere puff that PPruners use to flex their muscles of knowledge in aviation finance!

[nimrodjoe]

Let’s not get bogged down with who’s lost more money than who.

Keep it simple. Recovery is a long way off.

Do you really think the numbers released are genuine? Come off it. We all know how the Middle East works.

[nimrodjoe]

Cam down lads, we have Peter has a “BCom” in Finance.
Are you for real?

[777boyo]

Nervous and Nimrod.
If you’d taken the time to look at the EK Annual Report for 2019/2020 you’d find all the information you’d want. It’s called a Balance Sheet, and is also summarized, including Debt, in the “Financial Highlights”. It’s all included in the document. I’m pretty sure that one will be published for 2020/2021. After 33 years there, yes, I know how the ME works, but I also have confidence that PWC would not sign off on the EK audit if they had doubts or did not otherwise trust the information which they were supplied with - the reputational damage would be severe. If you choose a cynical point of view, well, that’s your choice. As the saying goes, never let the truth get in the way of a good story.
I’m not defending EK here, but I would like to think that any rumour or speculation would be well founded in at least a modicum of truth. Wild generalizations and pure guesswork are just not helpful. Nobody is saying the Financials are good - they’re horrible, but it’s not one carrier, it’s the whole industry.

[I love twins]

nervous_novice

I was under the impression that IAG group had received several bailout loans since the pandemic began, and specifically BA received £2 billion in January. The £2 billion may have arisen from bank loans but those loans were in fact backed by the U.K. government under its export development guarantee.

In any case, what do you care? If you no longer work in EK, or never worked there, then move on and concentrate your efforts on making a happy life for yourself. All this negativity is no good for you, brother.

[SMT Member]

I suppose when you write "the likes of British Airways", that actually includes British Airways? In which case that airline has received state aid, in the form of a government backed loan. You may also wish to have a look at every single US and European major who, in one form or the other, have received state aid in order to stay afloat (aloft?) for the last year and a half.

I get that you don't like the A380 or EK, and that's fair enough - we all have your preferences and dislikes. I have enjoyed flying EK over the years, and always the most when the service was operated by an A380.

[nimrodjoe]

777boyo

This is a rumour site mate. The clue is in the name.

[paule737]

777boyo

Google „PWC & scandal” - heaps of examples, where they have failed in the past! Just sayin’

[Pistolpete47]

Some people want to enjoy false news because it backs up their views. I work in the industry now while I'm waiting to get back into flying and handle annual reports every day so know a little about it.

But hey, believe what you want. I'm just offering a different view point that's not tarnished with doom and gloom.

[777boyo]

Nimrod.
Sure it’s a rumour site, but have you thought about the effect that constant negativity and statements such as “the company is insolvent” (its not) might have on the guys and girls who are still there or hoping to be recalled and rebuild their lives? False news and complete absence of some factual basis is not helpful and just causes unnecessary stress. It’s a bit like those TRE’s who would push some favoured but undocumented technique with “it’s an airmanship thing, mate”. Pointless.

Paule737.
Thanks for the reference - interesting reading. All the Big Four are under the microscope at the moment and will be on their best behaviour.

[nimrodjoe]

I just find it’s strange that you are writing on pprune about your undergraduate BCOM qualification in an effort to sound like you have half an idea of what you are on about. (you don’t)

Sorry,777boyo but you ain’t no auditor and if you can’t take negative comments in the middle of a global pandemic when we have 100 lots of 380s sat on the tarmac, then go somewhere else.

[777boyo]

"Sorry,777boyo but you ain’t no auditor and if you can’t take negative comments in the middle of a global pandemic when we have 100 lots of 380s sat on the tarmac, then go somewhere else".

Wow, you sound just like a certain very senior manager.........
I really hope things improve for you soon and you have a great life.

[Freedomfromopression]

73NG. The company internal policy will be to not rehire any former employee that was previously cost-wise unproductive or failed to meet above average reviews. It’s an issue of why would you make the same mistake twice?
EK is currently top heavy with UAE National cadets, too.

[Flyboy_73NG]

Well in my limited experience of the industry , policies change when an airline / outfit really needs to expand or needs crews ,
weather it’s minimum requirements for upgrades , hiring and so on . It only makes financial sense for them to rehire ‘ IF ‘ they would need crews on the T7.
how do you know that’s gonna be the internal policy ?
And I will make the same mistake again if I don’t have a job 🤷🏼‍♂️

[Freedomfromopression]

You can only dream. While you gain extra years of age waiting for a miracle, younger & fitter pilots become more attractive and will live in fear of calling sick or fatigued. You might want to ask a friend who works in HR for their honest opinion on how they choose candidates. Good luck to you.

[Flyboy_73NG]

You too .
🤙🏽

[nimrodjoe]

Younger and fitter pilots? What on earth are you on about?
Are we going to play in Qatar 2022?
I think you mean spineless and compliant.

[nimrodjoe]

When are all our elite unpaid leave super-trooper jumbo pilot extroaidnairs coming back ?

[FLEX/MCT]

Hopefully as soon as possible in order that some more of our colleagues and their families can have their lives back?

Heard 50 have been recalled today which is great news.

[donpizmeov]

I added that clown nimrodjoe to the ignore list some time ago. A mate has just shown me some of his/her/it recent screaming for attention posts, and I am really glad I did.

I recommend it.

[White Knight]

You mean some of our colleagues who have been striving to feed their families over the last few months? No salary and no access to A+B Provident Funds... It's forced several to resign so wind your neck in!

Heard 50 have been recalled today which is great news.

If that's true then great news:ok:

[Tight Seat]

nimrodjoe

You are an utter disgrace.

[T54A]

Sound like a person who couldn't pass an A380 course

[nimrodjoe]

We are losing all our good flights again to 380

[mad757]

As White Knight says wind your neck in! Nimrodjoe you are an utter disgrace to your profession. Some highly experienced pilots have had there lives destroyed and you're bitching about losing "good flights" to the 380. More flights equals more jobs for your colleagues on the 380 which is fantastic news. You are a total see u next Tuesday...

[Capn Rex Havoc]

Guys - cut nimrodjoe some slack. He was kept on by Ek because he is an elite, highly skilled, highly experienced FO. A team player and well, an all round pleasure to fly with………….:rolleyes:

[donpizmeov]

The Urban dictionary describes a Nimrod as being a stupid and incredibly annoying person.

Sounds about right.

So it seems 51 fellas called back. Fantastic news. Still hundreds waiting. Fingers crossed the recalls continue at an increasing pace.

[3Greens]

it’s the internet, it attracts knob jockeys like him from time to time. No doubt plenty of time on his hands as the crew told him a differant time and place for their meet up on the slip.
we all know the type.

[fatbus]

AAR stated "70-100 per month "

[Right20deg]

A lot more will be recruited by the end of July. Certainly worth waiting for.

[fatbus]

Where you getting that from ? 70-100 brings back LWOP pilots in anticipation of Oz fights switching from 777 to 380 by years end ( another article) . Recruiting? Really ?

[Un_Limited]

nimrodjoe

i think you are just trolling to get a response! Got your responses, feels good doesn’t it? Now move along or go on holiday (if your live-leave gets approved that is).

[Pif Paf]

Glad to hear 380 guys being brought back. I think another pressing problem is to get some more engineers! It takes A LOT of work to get the A380 back into service and they’re short of mechanics and engineers!

[VThokie2]

Un_Limited

It was just a little joke guys, he obviously meant no ill will and is harkening back (and almost taking a dig at) the whining of the 777 drivers of about 10 yrs ago.

[Emma Royds]

fatbus

Sounds more like the number of warning letters he wants to be sent out? :} Seriously though, the above figure came from the following article, which appears to be rather flexible with the truth!

The National - Emirates brings back 100 furloughed pilots per month as planes now 70 per cent full (http://www.thenationalnews.com/uae/transport/2021/07/15/emirates-brings-back-100-furloughed-pilots-per-month-as-planes-now-70-per-cent-full/)

BTW - great news on the further recall of 380 pilots! :ok:

Ditto about the comment regarding engineers made by Pif Paf. The chaps working in DWC to get the 380s ready again are working outdoors 24/7 in the horrendous dust and heat, since there is no hangar space available. Their workload has increased exponentially with around 30% less engineers available.

[Fired600]

“Almost all of our Boeing 777 pilots are back at work “ is a quote from AAR according to the article…..really? I haven’t heard of a single one of the Fired600 777 pilots being recalled. It’s easy to say they are all back at work if you ignore the ones you binned !!! We obviously don’t exist….

[donpizmeov]

It was so hot the other day, that the other pilot said “I am sweating like Nimrodjoe reading a book without pictures”

[SHVC]

fat-bus

Dont bank on flying to OZ in any capacity anytime soon. We can’t even keep our major cities open. Melbourne and Sydney currently locked up like hens for a few weeks.

I would estimate OZ international at a trickle from 2023 at the earliest.

[Emma Royds]

Interesting to see SVP Fleet openly pour cold water over AAR's projected recall rate in the latest volume of the Life of Brian. Naturally, it was done whilst treading on eggshells but it is nonetheless still rare to see a subordinate in this part of the world, scrutinise a quote made by someone higher up the food chain. I would hazard a guess that AAR would perhaps not be best pleased??

[Flyboy_73NG]

What does the latest update say ?

[Emma Royds]

In short, don't let recent headlines lull you into any false sense of security.

[donpizmeov]

Good points Emma. They are erring on the side of caution with the recall.
Until borders freely start to open to international travel nothing is a done deal.
Let's hope the latest move in the UK is successful, and leads to world returning to normal.

[Red Hackle]

Speaking to medical staff in the UK and general feeling is another big lockdown to come later in the year. Boris just needs to give everyone a break for the time being as people have had enough.

[nimrodjoe]

donpizmeov

you really do have absolutely no idea what you are on about.

[White Knight]

red Hackle

I doubt it. As usual SAGE are way over-estimating the virus now. I would suggest you give up reading the DM:ok:

[White Knight]

nimrodjoe

I expect he has a far better idea than you do... Back to your playpen:}

[nimrodjoe]

White Knight

What on earth are you on about? Do you have any idea what you are talking about ? They have regular government briefings you can watch. A quick catch up for you white-knight. The U.K. has now offered western vaccines to all adults who can have it. elderly and vulnerable were offered them first. people in their 30s are just receiving their second dose. As from yesterday, there isn’t one coronavirus restriction.They are now heading for herd immunity as the population has been vaccinated. This will happen at around 90 percent infection rate, they don’t currently know exactly the number already infected. Cases will now increase dramatically up until October, hospitalizations will be reduced considerably because of the vaccine, however they want to protect the health system as they head towards herd immunity and continue to live with the virus. If the health system becomes overloaded , many people die unnecessarily and having hospitals available is quite important for a country. They may therefore bring in restrictions and if necessary another lockdown to limit the spread to a more manageable rate. None of this is difficult to understand.

I suggest you get off Instagram big boy. this coronavirus is not all a big scam to stop you going down to patpong.

[fatbus]

Nimrod joke sings to his own tune ! Ignore listed!

[SOPS]

SHVC

And South Australia has just locked down. With arrival caps set at 3000 people a week until into next year.. I would not be expecting to fly A380s into Australia any time soon.

[fatbus]

Unfortunately I agree with you , albeit only a7 day lockdown in Melbourne .

[SOPS]

They just extended the lock down in Victoria for at least another 7 days. If this gets more out of hand I can see a request for a temporary ban on International arrivals coming.

[krismiler]

The UK suffered badly at the beginning and as a result was very quick to vaccinate. Australia locked down early, didn't suffer nearly as much and has been much slower with the vaccine rollout.

The UK is making a mistake by opening up whilst only 70% are vaccinated, a gradual lifting of restrictions whilst the remainder of the population get their dose would have been more sensible. Realistically, with the slow vaccination rate in Australia, combined with local outbreaks and soaring infection rates in SE Asia, I can see Australia remaining close until next year at the earliest.

[donpizmeov]

I believe the UK has seen that even though new cases are still happening, they are having small hospitalization rates, and very few deaths. This has been linked to vacination rates.
So their reopening is not done a whim. They are going the Singapore route, and planning on living with the virus, with decisions based on data.
If this proves to work, other countries will follow suite hopefully. If it doesn't work, our industry is in a world of trouble.
Because Australia has not had a virus problem due to self isolating the whole island, it's access to vacine was lower, with other countries being given the priority. This seems to have passed, and vacination rates are on the improve. The PM stating that all Australians that want the vaccine should have access to it by end of year. The problem with this policy is that, for most Australians, the whole virus thing has been a non event, and they don't see why they need the jab.
The PM has stated that to move to phase two, a certain percentage of the population needs to be jabbed (the exact percentage is TBD, great leadership there). So until the Facebook and YouTube educated masses get off their butts and get jabbed nothing is going to change. Unemployment is low. Economy is growing, they see no need to change. Hence no real timeline given to opening etc.
Europe and the UK opening to travel this summer is a good barometer of how things will proceed for the world. If this does not cause any major spike in hospitalization and deaths, othe nations will eventually follow.
It is a shame that nations have not worked together with one plan United to get the world out of this situation. But we deal with what we have. For the sake of those on LWOP and those made redundant, I hope it works out soon.

[Capn Rex Havoc]

You have no Idea what you are talking about Don, I will only get my information from NimrodJoe......:yuk:

[donpizmeov]

I feel really bad having the little fella on ignore Rexy. Oh wait there, am over it now :}

Hope ya doing well mate.

[nimrodjoe]

Hope you’re doing well mayteee

[aviation_enthus]

it's access to vacine was lower, with other countries being given the priority.

Nope. Sorry going to have to strongly disagree with this point.

Australia ordered a “home grown” UQ vaccine which failed.

They also ordered the AZ, which did have supply issues earlier in the year, but since about May has been manufactured in Australia. Because of the limited supply, the government was happy to make a big deal about the blood clots because it reduced demand for the vaccine and helped cover up the supply issues.

The Pfizer was a token order (initially 10 M). They added a top up order after the UQ vaccine failed (another 10 M).

However…

The extra 10 M was always due to arrive in the “third quarter of 2021”. This isn’t because other countries were “given priority”, it’s because the government did such a poor job of ordering useful vaccines and this was the delivery slots available to them.

Yes they had the luxury of time due to the border restrictions. But if the last month has proven anything, it’s not IF, but WHEN another outbreak occurs and the weakness of “it’s not a race” is quickly uncovered.

[donpizmeov]

From March 2021:The Italian government has blocked the export of an Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine shipment to Australia.

The decision affects 250,000 doses of the vaccine produced at an AstraZeneca facility in Italy.

Italy is the first EU country to use the bloc's new regulations allowing exports to be stopped if the company providing the vaccines has failed to meet its obligations to the EU.

[nimrodjoe]

The Australian health minister, Greg Hunt, said on Friday that Italy’s move did not affect the pace of the coronavirus vaccine rollout, because that shipment “had not been factored in to our distribution to the states and territories.

[nimrodjoe]

One things for sure with Australians, it’ll be everybody else’s fault but their own why they have had such a shambolic vaccination rollout . For your benefit mayte .

[Capn Rex Havoc]

Deaths per million to Jul 21 - UK 921 Aus 36. Yeah you can be proud of your countries handling of the pandemic. (oh and I don't know what "mayteee" is, perhaps something you say to your boyfriends?)

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/

[Silver68]

Rex,

I wouldn't get too smug, Australia has to open up at some point, then what? There'll be nothing left to open, but hey, the ozzies did lockdown better than anyone else.....

[14 6]

From personal experience I can confirm that the ozzies have completely lost the plot. They mindlessly carry out procedures dictated to by the higher-ups and in the process make many critical mistakes, hence the current outbreak.

[White Knight]

Capn Rex Havoc

I would suggest you look at the difference in Demographics between the UK and Australia... Population density, average population age and so on; makes quite a difference in fatality rate whatever you do!

[T54A]

Massive thread drift