14 day quarantine

[cessnarocket]

On BBC news now the gov is to enforce a 14 day quarantine for any arriving pax into UK airports from the end of May excluding ROI . If its true that's it we are all out of job goodbye to the aviation industry.

[redED]

And why now all of a sudden, on the face of it we’ve had no screening at ports and only limited quarantines, why not 3 months ago when this all kicked off?

[zeddb]

There’s to be a “consultation” tomorrow with the airlines and there will also be exemptions for key workers according to the bbc news website. If that’s the case it hardly seems to be credible, either it’s needed for everyone or it’s not needed at all. The industry is already bleeding on the floor, I didn’t expect a conservative government to kick it to death.

I think it would be wise to see what actually transpires tomorrow before getting into a panic, there’s nothing official just yet.

[wiggy]

I think it would be wise to see what actually transpires tomorrow before getting into a panic, there’s nothing official just yet.

You are probably right, but I would have to say that having been involved in a repatriation flight at the start of all this, from the Far east, and having seen our assembled multitude being decanted back into the UK without a sniff of anybody being checked, let alone quarantined, that if anything is introduced i it's a case of "stable, door, bolted", etc, and only being done for political..sorry, cosmetic purposes.

[fergusd]

And why now all of a sudden, on the face of it we’ve had no screening at ports and only limited quarantines, why not 3 months ago when this all kicked off?

Entirely predictable, it had already kicked off weeks before you believe it started (France now confirming covid infection in pneumonia patients in December for example), constraining arriving pax when the situation is already out of control makes little difference (apparently), now things are trending down infected pax entering the country are really not ideal. Other countries are or are already enforcing similar, more will inevitably follow.

Given global pax air traffic is one of the if not the primary means of spread, this is entirely predictable, inevitable and necessary . . .

The harder the lockdown the faster it passes, the UK gov have been lax and incompetent, perhaps intentionally (i.e. they are murderers), so it'll last longer and cost more lives and to the economy . . . whether you voted for a smart *rse latin talking chimp who is absolutely incapable of dealing with this (or any other) issue, only you will know . . . if you did . . . chapeau . . . you get what you asked for . . .

[vikingivesterled]

14 days seems to be a common quarantine starter length. Norway sample has just announced they are reducing it from 14 to 10 days on FHI (Peoples Health institute) expert advice. Doesn't stop they who have to go for job reasons for longer periods, like oil or farm workers. There will be rules coming with it that eases the quarantine. Sample 1 crane driver on a special crane that lay tracks in a new railroad tunnel spent his quarantine in the crane cabin. So one can declare a workplace as the place of quarantine. Plus there will probably be excemptions for certain workers based on national needs.
More direct flying will be needed, and in greater quantities than today. Looked up a Dublin-Trondheim trip. Only scheduled option came up as a 3 day journey via Island. And the alternatives are not there since car ferries are not running and you can't drive across European borders.

[GS-Alpha]

fergusd, has the gist of it.

[Douglas Bahada]

Deaths still keep on occurring. Hospitals still mainly empty, Non Covids dropping like flies for lack of treatment. Apparently the UK is one of the only countries not screening new arrivals. Yet we are on a downward trend.

​​​​​​Now we want to impose a two week quarantine. It's non sensical. We are closed for business.

18% of the UK population are over the age of 65. They are at most risk and account for 80% of deaths. So we shut down our society. Furlough our taxpayers and bankrupt our future to provide protection to people who are in no position to contribute financially to society.

The lunatics are running the asylum.

Before people start on about the heartlessness of this we all need to consider risk. Something we as pilots should do routinely. Does the risk to over 65s warrant the risk to the economy and future generations. I say no.

[Douglas Bahada]

Epidemiologist Professor Johan Giesecke writes in The Lancet (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31035-7/fulltext)…

“… facts have led me to the following conclusions. Everyone will be exposed to severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2, and most people will become infected. COVID-19 is spreading like wildfire in all countries, but we do not see it—it almost always spreads from younger people with no or weak symptoms to other people who will also have mild symptoms. This is the real pandemic, but it goes on beneath the surface, and is probably at its peak now in many European countries. There is very little we can do to prevent this spread: a lockdown might delay severe cases for a while, but once restrictions are eased, cases will reappear. I expect that when we count the number of deaths from COVID-19 in each country in 1 year from now, the figures will be similar, regardless of measures taken.”

Yet we persist in screwing ourselves economically. Madness. My comment.

[Blind Squirrel]

This seems an exercise in utter futility, inasmuch as the number of non-Britons who are willing to pay to travel to that country under such terms can probably be counted on the fingers of one hand.

I'm at a loss to know why the British government did not simply say that there will be no commercial aviation until further notice.

[guy_incognito]

The harder the lockdown the faster it passes, the UK gov have been lax and incompetent, perhaps intentionally (i.e. they are murderers), so it'll last longer and cost more lives and to the economy . . . whether you voted for a smart *rse latin talking chimp who is absolutely incapable of dealing with this (or any other) issue, only you will know . . . if you did . . . chapeau . . . you get what you asked for . . .

The lockdown was never meant to be until this "passes". The purpose was never to get rid of the virus. The sole purpose was to "protect the NHS". Given that the much trumpeted Nightingale hospital in London never got above 1% of capacity, and ITUs across the country (like the one my wife works in) never came close to using the excess capacity and staff that they'd co-opted, the clear implication is that the lockdown came too soon.

I don't think the government's handling has been lax at all, and that is exactly the problem. It has made scared political decisions, in thrall to a baying media who have whipped up public terror constantly throughout this fiasco. This proposed 14 day quarantine is another unwelcome, ultimately unenforceable knee jerk reaction to be seen to be doing something useful.

[dc9-32]

British Government's moto:

Making it up as we go along.

It's too late to start placing people in 14 day quarantine. British Government, you've let in too many people to our country in the last 2 months for this to have any affect other than to destroy the economy further. But then, by doing so, further down the line, you will increase taxes. So screw people now with the 14 day rule, and screw your own people next year onwards with tax hikes.

[AmarokGTI]

Australia has been doing it. Numbers much better than UK. As of yesterday less than 7000 total cases and less than 100 total deaths. Majority of cases traced to International Travel.

Those numbers are “all time”. UK has been getting numbers like that some days. The population ratio is not enough to justify those differences.

I’ve lost my job (temporarily I hope) and yes it’s horrific for the industry. But it’s working.

[stormin norman]

To late again as usual.
The Airports have had thousands of staff doing nothing for weeks now.
A sensible screening and tracking system at the start for anyone arriving would have helped in tracking the small amount of people arriving in the country.
Politicians can't even make their minds up whether masks should be compulsory worn.

[kcockayne]

This is a terrible situation & I pretty much agree with all of what has been said, so far. But, do not even begin to imagine that the Govt. knows what it is doing. It NEVER has done - to that extent, we are doomed ! In fact, no one knows what is best to do. We simply have to keep our fingers crossed & hope for the best. This virus will not physically destroy mankind, but with the help of those in charge it will make a damn good job of completely impoverishing us all !

[lederhosen]

I am pretty sure the UK is just moving in line with other countries. Germany has a home quarantine rule of 14 days for anyone other than business travellers, who can spend a limited amount of time abroad. Austria requires certification of a negative test for visits other than work travel.

[PilotLZ]

Up to that point, the UK was an exception rather than the norm in terms of cross-border travel. Quarantine is mandated on arrivals from abroad pretty much everywhere else in Europe. Austria is leading the way for now by allowing the quarantine to be replaced by a negative test, done either at VIE airport at the eye-watering cost of €190 or at an independent lab before the trip for one third of that cost.

It's another matter how timely such a measure is or whether imported cases are the biggest problem while the virus is running rampant across the local population. And, obviously, its introduction will smash up most of the efforts to start restoring some degree of connectivity by now.

[V12]

at the lockdown came too soon.

I don't think the government's handling has been lax at all, and that is exactly the problem. It has made scared political decisions, in thrall to a baying media who have whipped up public terror constantly throughout this fiasco. This proposed 14 day quarantine is another unwelcome, ultimately unenforceable knee jerk reaction to be seen to be doing something useful.


The Tories control the MSM so that can’t be right ... it’s very clear that No.10 brief then what to write (like last Thu)

[jolihokistix]

If this was an advisory, to stay low as far as possible for ten days to two weeks, then maybe it would make more sense.
In Japan I read (perhaps back in February?) that they were handing out leaflets to arriving passengers advising them not to use public transport, and to head straight to one registered address for quarantine, though I doubt many followed that to the letter.

[autothrottle]

I think this conference call , chaired by aviation minister Kelly Tolhurst, could be VERY interesting. Very strange they bring this in now, but I’m really hoping it’s part of a phased approach whereby they reduce it gradually over a period of 3-4 weeks and it’s a targeted policy from certain destinations which ‘follows scientific evidence’ .However I doubt it is being thought through properly and is probably not being coordinated with other nations.

Strangley , the only people who use aviation that are not as affected here are retired, those at potentially more risk, as self isolation is not the end of the world after a trip away. Although the FCO ‘advice’ is not to travel , maybe they might relax some of this advice , allowing rules similar to Germany. Short trips no quarantine, longer ones 14 days quarantine. As it’s leaked , let’s see what actually comes out later.

This could genuinely finish commercial aviation without significant financial help from Government. Help they seem very reluctant to offer.

[compressor stall]

It works, although it may be of less benefit if its right through your community already...

Australia brought in 14 quarantine here, just in the nick of time too. Most cases are from international travel returning. Very little community transmission here, luckily.

Currently, pax in and outbound restricted to essential and compassionate, sent to government hotels for 14 days. Aircrew can self isolate at home for 14 days, or until the next flight.

I'm lucky enough to be self isolating between flights.

[EastofKoksy]

Apart from the short term effect of killing off Virgin Atlantic, these restrictions will cause enormous damage to the rest of the UK air transport industry. The quarantine restriction seems to be aimed at stopping the virus being 'seeded' again by asymptomatic people arriving from other countries. Logically it will have to be applied until a mass vaccination programme has been completed, even if no new cases have been reported in the UK for several weeks. If an effective vaccine is not found, what then?

[lederhosen]

Mr Mac that is definitely in line with the current rules that I have just checked. But if you decide to remain in Germany as you suggested earlier then you could well be required to work from 'home' in Germany for 14 days. I am sure your legal department will be on top of this. What is clear though is that the UK is pretty late to the party with restrictions on international travel. The Gisaid website with its timelapse virus mutations demonstrates how Covid spread by plane and probably why London and New York are the worst effected places on the planet.

[biddedout]

I can imagine Mr Walsh was very keen to influence any consultation. Pick a date when you plan to start up again then encourage HMG to introduce restrictions to prevent the competition getting one step ahead. I can imagine it will all be lifted on 01 July.

[king surf]

Having operated several times at LHR during the lockdown I was surprised that no screening of any description was taking place. The technology is available with large TV screens measuring temperatures along with a form to fill out. Yes it take time but worth it in my view.
Have we learnt nothing from previous outbreaks that threaten the world?
I was in Sierra Leone when the Ebola virus was in its early stages and on leaving the country forms had to be filled out and temperature taken and for arrivals as well. Ebola was virtually contained within west Africa .
i know the symptoms are different with Covid19, but I think we have been far too slow to react to screening pax.
I agree this is a major blow to our industry and a government bailout is now needed to save the UK aviation industry

[tom775257]

https://www.businessgreen.com/news/4014548/petersberg-climate-dialogue-uk-governments-duty-build-climate-resilient-economies-post-covid-19

”Germany, like the UK and many other major economies around the world, has been under mounting pressure from business leaders, green groups, think tanks, and economists to resist the urge to rebuild coronavirus-hit economies in carbon-intensive ways, and in the short-term avoid bailing out polluting sectors, such as aviation, without stringent environmental conditions attached.”

From what I’m reading of the Petersberg Climate Dialogue at the end of April, it sounds like multiple governments want to tie covid recovery with green issues, it might go some way to explain the government seemingly wanting to damage mass commercial air transport.

[possibleconsequences]

“”The harder the lockdown the faster it passes, the UK gov have been lax and incompetent, perhaps intentionally (i.e. they are murderers), so it'll last longer and cost more lives and to the economy . . . whether you voted for a smart *rse latin talking chimp who is absolutely incapable of dealing with this (or any other) issue, only you will know . . . if you did . . . chapeau . . . you get what you asked for . . .“”


extraordinary rant!


its doubtful any government could have done much better than this given the lack of readiness that ALL governments are guilty of. We do largely get the politicians we deserve as those who speak bluntly with hard truths don’t get elected.
warnings of such virus’s have been made and talked about for decades in the scientific community but nobody in power ( or the public at large)took any notice.
In particular , our insistence on travelling anywhere without taking the blindest bit of notice about its effects or potential to spread such a virus has been a major factor .

there were major international protocols agreed in 2008 following SARS to cope with this but governments throughout the world threw the rule book out of the window , probably out of a mixture of panic ( helped along as ever by sensationalist press, uncontrolled crap on social media and a largely scientifically uneducated population) and unpreparedness as soon as a real pandemic hit.

In the U.K. , in particular, we have happily moved our manufacturing base abroad ( hence a lack of PPE and chemicals available for testing kits easily to hand) but we have an amazing health system so it’s not surprising the government prioritised that, especially after seeing Italy’s very modern system on the brink of collapse.

As for the issue in this thread, it raises many questions so we’ll have to wait for the detail but it’s possible that it helps to prevent ‘re-seeding’ the virus. It is also possible the government sees it as a way of permanently cutting aviation to meet climate targets - something which is pointless of course if it’s not done internationally. It certainly will help wipe out a large part of the aviation industry if it’s not financially mitigated against.

At the end of this there will either be a vaccine, medicines to mitigate the virus’s effects or enough herd immunity so that the virus becomes just another disease that we routinely accept kills several thousand older people each year, as in flu, until the next one comes along.

Theres no way aviation can carry on as it was before this as it plays a critical part in spreading such diseases so probably health checks, temp scans etc etc will be with us permanently, as in the security procedures after 9/11 and perhaps a permanent reduction in flying may not be a bad thing from an environmental impact point of view. ( separate debate)

The answer should be to protect the most vulnerable and get the rest back into work but as a politician you then have to tell over 70’s ( for example) to stay indoors and then answer the people who lose somebody younger so back to the top, there’s no point in ranting and criticising everything the government dies as none of us could do any better given our political system


Read a book ... ‘ how contagion works’. By Paulo Giordini - it helps explain the conundrum we’re in

[FullWings]

Given that “key workers” are likely to be exempted and, at the moment, are probably are the overwhelming number of people travelling by air (don’t think there are many holidaymakers), then how does quarantining a small fraction of those on a flight do anything at all?

[Landflap]

Totally inept UK Gov,peopled with utter wallies , as usual, way beyond the drag curve. Stacks of views all over the place highlighting what other Governments did. UK just followed but too little too late. Here's a further example but, hey, we elected the clots ! Allusion to the notion that the UK Gov knows exactly what is going on and in the case of Border Control, LACK of control , was justifiably criminal, has been blind sided or heavily edited. Why ? It is not hindsight. Lack of appropriate action led to these predictable results.

My biggest laugh of the day was the Gov suggesting that screening of inbound pax at LHR was of a small proportion to those already infected and would therefore be, pointless. Daily briefings by plonkers like Hancock steered towards the numbers game. Percentage of this, proportion of that, a few graphs. Most listening would be yawning ,lost, or both.

When I was being groomed for a roll in Training, I expressed concern with having to deal with very difficult questions sometimes posed by Trainees. I was told to just fob them off with the numbers game, stats & graphs ! I don't recall Johnson, Hancock & the other wasters being in the group with me but goodness gracious, these guys are good !

Not quite so many laughing at the idea of collusion, NWO ( rather than the biggots in the WHO) and the complete con of tracing APPS on your "smart" phone. Wake up people.

[wiggy]

FullWings

yep, agree with your observation about who is flying in/out of the UK by air at the moment..

It looked (well until this rumour started) as if some airlines were looking at starting to rebuild their short haul programmes in a very limited way perhaps from July onwards - if any quarantine is announced that applies to everybody ( not just those those arriving from outside Europe) then I suspect those plans will go back on ice and TBH I'm then not sure how any UK based airline can ride this out.

Still, I expect those with a financial interest in Butlins, Pontins, Centre Parcs etc will be happy........

[Vendee]

I don't think the government's handling has been lax at all,

Really??? How about telling people not to go to pubs and restaurants but not forcing those places to close down. How did that work out? Same with getting adults to self distance to stop the spread but keeping the schools open for all. Yet another late U turn there. We watched this virus coming and did nothing. We should have acted 6 weeks earlier when we would have had less trouble sourcing PPE and testing kits. We might have found ourselves in a better position than S Korea, Germany, Greece etc. Our governments incompetence has cost thousands of lives.

[GeeRam]

The coming tax increases will be severe and long-lasting. Many over 65s will be killed, reducing the government pension bill. The British economy has been destroyed, and recovery will not happen within the lifespans of most reading this today.

Of the 3 people I know that have died from Covid-19, 2 were under 55 with no underlying health conditions, but both worked worked in public transport enviroment and were subjected to high viral load conditions over a period of many days prior to lockdown.
All public transportation will be affected by this in the coming 18 months, not just aviation, but sadly, UK Govt are not interested in supporting aviation as it's after the green vote, so will happily cast it aside. Don't forget Boris stated he would lay down in front of the bulldozers of a 3rd runway at LHR, which is why HMG said in Jan they would not be appealing the court decision on LHR expansion. If this virus is with us for ever, the money being pumped into HS2 will be even more of a white elephant than many predicted before this virus took hold as no one will be using it!
The only way this virus will be eradicated outside a lab, will be to deny it human host for long enough......that means all countries isolating themselves until zero community transmission occurs for 21 days at least.
My job at Heathrow was terminated a month ago, and its highly unlikely I will ever work there or in aviation again.

[crewmeal]

Too little too late. Are there any pax flights still arriving or has the govt missed the boat?

[Bigpants]

"Figures released to Labour MP Stephen Doughty showed that fewer than 300 people arriving in the UK were quarantined in the run-up to coronavirus lockdown on 23 March. The Home Office figures showed that just 273 of about 18.1 million arrivals had to spend time in isolation in the first three months of the year, including passengers on three planes from Wuhan, the centre of the initial outbreak in China.

The BBC reported on Friday night that aviation minister Kelly Tolhurst is expected to discuss the proposals with airline and airport representatives in a conference call on Saturday morning."

From The Guardian today.

[inducedrag]

What about operating crew of international flights on a overnight layover?

[AviatorDave]

https://www.businessgreen.com/news/4014548/petersberg-climate-dialogue-uk-governments-duty-build-climate-resilient-economies-post-covid-19

”Germany, like the UK and many other major economies around the world, has been under mounting pressure from business leaders, green groups, think tanks, and economists to resist the urge to rebuild coronavirus-hit economies in carbon-intensive ways, and in the short-term avoid bailing out polluting sectors, such as aviation, without stringent environmental conditions attached.”

From what I’m reading of the Petersberg Climate Dialogue at the end of April, it sounds like multiple governments want to tie covid recovery with green issues, it might go some way to explain the government seemingly wanting to damage mass commercial air transport.

It seems that there are some more issues that governments (and some industries) would like to push in the wake and in the shadow of Covid:
Mandatory tracking of individuals via smartphones, abandoning cash money, climate agenda and compulsory vaccination come to my mind. Certainly, there would be more.

[Cat Techie]

There's parts of the baying media that detest the Tories, such as the Guardian, Independent and the Mirror. All three of these are out to undermine the government. and cause panic among the public.

The fact the instigator of the UK lockdown has been caught out breaching the lockdown to go and sh*g his girlfriend has not helped.

Still as ever, "do as I say, and not as I do".

The Telegraph, Times and others baying for the impossible and picking out the incompetence of the pre lockdown Government policies? They are really left wing rags "Not!" The Daily Mail is the worst for Sh*te stirring. If people can catch Covid, they will not fly unless totally essential. I saw that with the foot fall drop off in late Feb and early Marchon the fly prog system for my lot.

[ShotOne]

So we’re going to have a mock-consultation with the airlines to “discuss” their de-facto shutdown. What’s the logic in restricting access from areas with much lower rates than UK and is there any evidence that doing so will help?

[hunterboy]

I also see that questions are being raised as to the credibility of Prof. Ferguson’s software as it appears to be ridden with bugs and gives different answers depending on the computer it is run on. The post flight review of this crisis is going to be worth reading.

[Jet II]

I would like to see the reasoning behind this suggestion as it seems a very odd time to bring these restrictions in. We are currently seeing a fall in cases and death rates, the NHS was never overwhelmed (the original case for bringing in the lockdown), we never ran out of ventilators and currently 40% of critical care beds in the NHS are empty. I would have thought that now would be the time to relax restrictions, not increase them.

[Dan_Brown]

This is a classic case of closing the gate after the horse has bolted. Mentioned above, this should have been the rule 3 months ago.

Oh wait, they were on the ball 3 months ago. Pax from fights from the epicentre, were given written instructions for what to do in the event they felt unwell. Then sent on their way. I pressume this was advice from WHO, as well as clowns here.

If this is how the academics function, God help us all.

I weep and have wepted in despiir since.

God give me strenght to endure this.

[ShotOne]

Unfortunately, everyone in this crisis is behaving exactly true to form. Authoritarian governments tighten the screw even harder. And expect to be praised for doing so. Greens want to shut down all post-industrial revolution activity. And little bad-tempered red-faced men who dislike people using public footpaths near them now pretend to be supporting the NHS!

[PilotLZ]

There's also another side to the problem. How many countries grant admission to arrivals from the UK now, bar their own nationals who are mandated to quarantine after arrival from the UK? I can think of a good few who don't let in anyone other then their nationals, let alone arrivals from what sadly became one of the countries with the worst epidemic profile in Europe.

[SpannerInTheWerks]

I have to agree.

The future of society is in the hands of the young and fit, not the dead and dying.

[lomapaseo]

I have to agree.

The future of society is in the hands of the young and fit, not the dead and dying.

Please define the point between these.

I'm not sure that I'm over the hill yet and on the decline

[FlyingCroc]

Face it guys, it is NOW time for plan B. I hope you worked on it. I got burned on 911, devastating, started from zero. This is much much worse.

[Dryce]

Unfortunately, everyone in this crisis is behaving exactly true to form. Authoritarian governments tighten the screw even harder. And expect to be praised for doing so. Greens want to shut down all post-industrial revolution activity. And little bad-tempered red-faced men who dislike people using public footpaths near them now pretend to be supporting the NHS!

And some of the posts in this forum are also in their own way 'true to form'.

I can figure why the UK government didn't do the right thing and restrict aviation travel sooner. But that was a big decision and and hindsight makes it simpler to judge that now. The public take the blame too - they would have been an outcry from those wanting travel in January and February. The media would have had a field day.

What I can't figure is why borders were not seen as a control point when the public lockdown commenced. It seems illogical not to have introduced stronger authorative controls at that time.

Having persuaded the UK public to generally comply with the lockdown, to shatter the economy, and sink many futures then it wouild be irresponsible *NOT* to put in some fairly heavy border enforcement as part of the overall controls that will be needed to catch and stop a second wave.

The aviation industry is in tatters. The public may not want to fly. It's not clear that they wlll be willing to fly domestically or use long distance public transport to the extent they were used to before the lockdown. If that's the case then the demand for international travle will surely be no better. Given the shift in economics both at the supply end and consumer end the public may not be able to afford to fly.

But worse it has to be mindful that history may become quite brutal - aviation as a sector may get the blame. Any airline CEO complaining about government international travel restrictions has to bear in mind that the governments they are lobbying are carrying the can for 10's of thousands (and counting) of excess deaths. The silent majority of the public may direct their wrath at more than just their governments. The story may get turned into an accusation that the aviation sector was selfishly responsible for spreading the disease that killed peoples jobs and futures along with huge numbers of actual mortalities. So railing against these quarantine restructions may well provoke a damaging response.

[currawong]

Wow.

Does anyone actually know what a quarantine is?

Close your borders to non-citizens/non-residents. 14 day quarantine, enforced, for those repatriated.

Get on top of this thing while you can. At any point this could take a turn for the worse. Or not. Feel lucky?

"The second wave of the 1918 pandemic was much more deadly than the first. The first wave had resembled typical flu epidemics; those most at risk were the sick and elderly, while younger, healthier people recovered easily. By August, when the second wave began in France, Sierra Leone, and the United States, the virus had mutated to a much more deadly form. October 1918 was the month with the highest fatality rate of the whole pandemic"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu

Anyone banging on about "herd immunity" is being economical with the facts. It might work - if it does not mutate. Want to make the call that it won't?

Good luck and stay safe.

[Fire and brimstone]

On BBC news now the gov is to enforce a 14 day quarantine for any arriving pax into UK airports from the end of May excluding ROI . If its true that's it we are all out of job goodbye to the aviation industry.

A 14 day quarantine is one thing.

With respect, how do you enforce a quarantine on a stag party returning from Alicante??

[antonov225]

Wow.

Does anyone actually know what a quarantine is?

Close your borders to non-citizens/non-residents. 14 day quarantine, enforced, for those repatriated.

Get on top of this thing while you can. At any point this could take a turn for the worse. Or not. Feel lucky?

"The second wave of the 1918 pandemic was much more deadly than the first. The first wave had resembled typical flu epidemics; those most at risk were the sick and elderly, while younger, healthier people recovered easily. By August, when the second wave began in France, Sierra Leone, and the United States, the virus had mutated to a much more deadly form. October 1918 was the month with the highest fatality rate of the whole pandemic"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu

Anyone banging on about "herd immunity" is being economical with the facts. It might work - if it does not mutate. Want to make the call that it won't?

Good luck and stay safe.

stop quoting the Spanish flu. It’s largely irrelevant. In 1918 healthcare was poor/non-existent for many, sanitation and living conditions were much poorer, no hygiene control or education to speak of, poor diets and generally poor health for many resulting from that large war that just happened. Unless you want to start quoting the Black Death and we can all burn cats and check our humours then please give over about the Spanish Flu.

[ZFT]

I have to agree.

The future of society is in the hands of the young and fit, not the dead and dying.

This will be the same young and fit that are too scared to venture out and expect to be paid (forever?) to stay at home.

[Mister Geezer]

I suspect the UK government is trying to swerve around the controversial issue of having to create some checks at the border on the island of Ireland.

[homonculus]

Antonov225 it may well be you that is wrong. There are many similarities with 1918 including the cytokine response. Both were / are epidemics of nosocomial pathogens with much common epidemiology

The issue over what to do now is that the UK Goverment is applying the official secrets act to the science as are the Chinese so we cannot see, test, question or develop the facts. I search in vain for a precedent except in the military field.

Clearly they did too little too late and can't admit it, now finding themselves in an unenviable situation where they are clutching at straws and denying scientists save a handful of mostly civil servants the ability to help

Closing borders was necessary in January. It would still help but unsupervised isolation against an inability to track and trace the current possible 30000 new cases a day is just window dresing

[antonov225]

Antonov225 it may well be you that is wrong. There are many similarities with 1918 including the cytokine response. Both were / are epidemics of nosocomial pathogens with much common epidemiology

The issue over what to do now is that the UK Goverment is applying the official secrets act to the science as are the Chinese so we cannot see, test, question or develop the facts. I search in vain for a precedent except in the military field.

Clearly they did too little too late and can't admit it, now finding themselves in an unenviable situation where they are clutching at straws and denying scientists save a handful of mostly civil servants the ability to help

Closing borders was necessary in January. It would still help but unsupervised isolation against an inability to track and trace the current possible 30000 new cases a day is just window dresing

You cannot base anything on something that happened 102 years ago including the analysis of the virus as that’s only accurate at the time. It’s of minimal use to compare the 2. Population heath and medicine is the key factor. Unless you want to count the current deaths from smallpox too.....

[wiggy]

Re slipping/night stopping crews and

they will be exempt. Same approach as other countries doing the same.

That's not actually a universal truth.

FYI there are some places with quite draconian inbound quarantine regs where slipping crew are not exempt.

Most certainly a month ago at a certain far East destination slipping crews were restricted to staying at the airport hotel - they were escorted direct from arrivals to that hotel and were confined to their rooms for the duration of the stay - no going out of the room at all, so for example food was delivered to room..

Some countries have been taking this a bit more seriously than others.

[V12]

Re Hunterboy: "The post flight review of this crisis is going to be worth reading."


What? Like the Russia Report, or the SAGE Minutes? If ever published (v unlikely), all the interesting bits will have been redacted and the bulk of the public will already have forgotten

[leadinghedges]

There’s to be a “consultation” tomorrow with the airlines and there will also be exemptions for key workers according to the bbc news website. If that’s the case it hardly seems to be credible, either it’s needed for everyone or it’s not needed at all. The industry is already bleeding on the floor, I didn’t expect a conservative government to kick it to death.

I think it would be wise to see what actually transpires tomorrow before getting into a panic, there’s nothing official just yet.

Well said that individual.

[golder]

Wow.

Does anyone actually know what a quarantine is?

Close your borders to non-citizens/non-residents. 14 day quarantine, enforced, for those repatriated.

Get on top of this thing while you can. At any point this could take a turn for the worse. Or not. Feel lucky?


Have you ever tried to talk sense with a yank on this? I think the poms are going the same way. Just sit back and watch the car crash. I blame Murdoch, feeding them the line.

[homonculus]

Antonov225 sorry to come back but you are wrong. The epidemiology is little changed since 1918 and in 1918 the management was hand hygiene, social distancing and masks. Failure to close borders was known in 1918 to be an error. Mass events such as the Philadelphia peace loan rally was done against Federal advice and the medical officer for Manchester effectively repeated the current lockdown rules in spring 1918

Health has little effect on transmission, and everything I can do on my intensive care unit merely prevents a small proportion of deaths

It is because the epidemiology I was taught at medical school in the 1970s applied in 1918 and applies now allows the medical profession to say the politicians are wrong. You are correct we have much to learn, especially about the phytogenetics which may explain differing death numbers in different countries, but the genetics and mutations and intracellular function do not effect our management at this initial stage of infection

[SLF3]

The fundamental problem is that you cannot realistically social distance on a flight or through an airport. Screening does not work: they screened people prior to letting them onto repatriation flights but many of the passengers went down with the virus within days of landing. Mass testing is not available, time consuming and not particularly reliable.

People coming off a flight are travelling for a reason, be it work or pleasure. And that almost always involves high levels of social interaction. So you may get on a flight with it, you may catch it on the flight, if you have it you are almost certain to spread it after you land.

I'm in the oil industry: we ask people to quarantine before they go offshore, and screen them before they do. Some companies test: we don't, because on all the evidence the tests available in the UK are nowhere near reliable enough to make a material difference. We don't allow people offshore if they are high risk (pre-existing medical condition). There is COVID on many offshore installations, including three of ours. And there have been quite a few medivacs of very sick people who were not viewed as high risk.

So, absent a reliable test, absent a vaccine, asking people to quarantine after a flight is not unreasonable. A lot of people will not travel because they won't want to quarantine, either at the destination or on the return. Even without quarantine, they will likely choose not to travel because they view the risk of catching the virus whilst travelling, and having to deal with it away from home, as a risk they do not need or want to take.

This may be a deeply unpopular view if you work in the travel industry. But it will likely be the reality for 12 - 18 months.

[FlipFlapFlop]

What is it with people, some from careers that are as safe as houses, and who will be treated as heros for the rest of their lives, that they feel the need to post on a professional pilots forum just to tell us we are well and truly *****d.

[Cat Techie]

Wonderful statement by the secretary of state for Transport. Bring back Norman Tebbit.. He had some idea on the Aviation world. Oh, of course he also would have said "On, yer Bike!"
https://scontent-lhr8-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/96551925_10219973285055227_694258781676109824_n.jpg?_nc_cat= 107&_nc_sid=110474&_nc_ohc=Wv3W-7fH33gAX9mURyu&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr8-1.xx&oh=f2a47f37fb12c6cde44656e17200fbc6&oe=5EDE63E2

[SLF3]

In my case, because my assumption was that your colleagues generally believe what they write. And if they do, many of them are (in my view) delusional.

Oil demand is down about 25%. If the US and Saudi shut in (about as likely as pigs learning to floss) there will still be an excess of supply over demand. Hence WTI went negative and oil now at $20 - 30 /bbl with no visible floor. So we are well and truly *****d as well. Since the last oil price crash 160,000 people have left the UK oil and gas industry. We did not get a lot of sympathy, just had to deal with it. As will you.

[Flying Hi]

"Second wave, you are clear to land"
forget human cost, show me the money!

[squidie]

stop quoting the Spanish flu. It’s largely irrelevant. In 1918 healthcare was poor/non-existent for many, sanitation and living conditions were much poorer, no hygiene control or education to speak of, poor diets and generally poor health for many resulting from that large war that just happened. Unless you want to start quoting the Black Death and we can all burn cats and check our humours then please give over about the Spanish Flu.

It isn’t like h1n1 no, and the health industry is way ahead in terms of science and technology. But remember that it's still a highly pathogenic virus and the risks are no different. We don’t have a vaccine for sars-cov-2 and neither did we when the h1n1 virus was spreading around, only pharmaceutical interventions. Also pandemics can follow the same paths of multiple waves if they can spread. So I see this time no different when it comes to preventive measures. The GOV are and have said many times that they’re following the science so the public who fail to adhere to their requests are in a league of their own.

My opinion for the exit of this pandemic is herd immunity; either by vaccine or infection. There is backing support for this from countries like Sweden (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31035-7/fulltext).

The aviation industry is no doubt facing its biggest threat since the dawn of commercial aviation. But it’s going to have to play its part in fighting it a long side other industries.

[UAV689]

I think about 230 million people arrive into uk each year.

This cannot and will not get policed.

Even if only 1% of past air travel returns thats about 200,000 a month, do people expect plod to check on addresses daily?

its an illusion, but one that will have devastating consequences on aviation.

[Flying Hi]

Come on! ALL politics is smoke and mirrors. Being Seen as doing something just as effective to Joe Public as actually doing it.

[PilotLZ]

At the same time, Etihad are resuming service to LHR, Ryanair are restoring some further destinations from STN and Wizz air are getting up to speed at LTN. Presumably carriers outside of the UK also have short-term plans I am not aware of. International coordination of actions, as proposed by EASA/Eurocontrol/everyone in their right mind? Never heard of it.

And then comes the issue how to refund those who booked their flight and couldn't make any use of it because of new restrictions out of the blue. Lots of extra pain in the back for everyone involved.

[squidie]

Not everyone is at the same stage in their parts of the pandemics. When that’s the case then international coordination will plan out better.

[LGW Vulture]

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhorton1/2020/04/22/how-coronavirus-spread-in-one-restaurant-shows-why-air-travel-is-safer-than-you-think/amp/&ved=2ahUKEwijmcmS5afpAhXfHjQIHSKHDdEQFjAAegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw2u9gZZRcia-D3J6rclx0qB&cf=1
​​​​​​
Apologies if already posted.

[currawong]

Unfortunately you are taking the lowest common denominator approach.

Your control efforts will only ever be as good as the places your new arrivals come from.

Borders are easily closed, after all, that is what they are for.

Sometime soon (medium term) parts of the world will be up and running again.

But they will not be accepting arrivals from countries where this remains endemic.

[b1lanc]

Be glad it's as simple as country borders. In the US, you have to worry about state borders (and different lockdown procedures) as well as individual corporate policies. A relative who works for the gov't was told they are mission essential and needs to travel across the country. Problem - once they get there they need to self-quarantine for 14 days before they report to work at the target organization. Totally absurd.

[Dryce]

This cannot and will not get policed.

The previous standards, scales, measures and calibration no longer apply.

We have empty skies. We don't see the public clamouring to restart passenger air travel. I doubt for those outside the aviation sector that more than a few eould even have it on any list of things they are bothered about.

A few weeks ago we were worrying about ventilators and there were emergency hospitals being built. Now we worry about PPE.

Assuming that things settle nad we have a boundary to 'the first wave' then people sure as hell won't want a second.

Assuming no practical vaccine or no magic treatments then we have to live with it - which means controls.

Much as a 14 day quarantine might look unwelcome now - if the hit is taken and the UK along with other nations get control within their own jusrisdictions - then domestic travel will start to be viewed as safer and grow - and various nations that trust each others' controls will de-restrict international travel between them and make it a practical proposition.

[currawong]

Be glad it's as simple as country borders. In the US, you have to worry about state borders (and different lockdown procedures) as well as individual corporate policies. A relative who works for the gov't was told they are mission essential and needs to travel across the country. Problem - once they get there they need to self-quarantine for 14 days before they report to work at the target organization. Totally absurd.

The state where I live is has closed borders. Restricted movement within the state. In a country with closed borders.

Firewalled, on several levels, if you will.

Not absurd. Quarantine. Many countries are managing it. Those quarantined supervised physically or electronically to ensure compliance.

Has it destroyed the economy? No, it has helped keep it running.

[b1lanc]

The US isn't internationally firewalled and no supervision to ensure compliance. Get my drift?

[currawong]

Good luck then.

Hope to see you on the other side.

[b1lanc]

You as well.

[ZFT]

“

..................Theres no way aviation can carry on as it was before this as it plays a critical part in spreading such diseases so probably health checks, temp scans etc etc will be with us permanently, as in the security procedures after 9/11 and perhaps a permanent reduction in flying may not be a bad thing from an environmental impact point of view.....



I keep reading comments similar to this. So how did (flu) virus spread around the globe in the past? Certainly the last 2 big events (1918 and 1957) cannot be blamed upon aviation!!

[theleftphalange]

Totally inept UK Gov,peopled with utter wallies , as usual, way beyond the drag curve. Stacks of views all over the place highlighting what other Governments did. UK just followed but too little too late. Here's a further example but, hey, we elected the clots ! Allusion to the notion that the UK Gov knows exactly what is going on and in the case of Border Control, LACK of control , was justifiably criminal, has been blind sided or heavily edited. Why ? It is not hindsight. Lack of appropriate action led to these predictable results.


My biggest laugh of the day was the Gov suggesting that screening of inbound pax at LHR was of a small proportion to those already infected and would therefore be, pointless. Daily briefings by plonkers like Hancock steered towards the numbers game. Percentage of this, proportion of that, a few graphs. Most listening would be yawning ,lost, or both.


When I was being groomed for a roll in Training, I expressed concern with having to deal with very difficult questions sometimes posed by Trainees. I was told to just fob them off with the numbers game, stats & graphs ! I don't recall Johnson, Hancock & the other wasters being in the group with me but goodness gracious, these guys are good !


Not quite so many laughing at the idea of collusion, NWO ( rather than the biggots in the WHO) and the complete con of tracing APPS on your "smart" phone. Wake up people.


In all honestly we only have our selves to blame no one else. Through our acquiescence we allowed the whole system to be hijacked by a tiny few. Yet we laughed and ridiculed those trying to warn us. History may not repeat itself but it always rhymes.

it will be red pill blue pill time for the masses.

[Chris2303]

The 14 day lockdown in New Zealand is working well. Locked in a room in a 4 star hotel. Fed and watered and policed by AVSEC.

[poteroo]

Arrived LHR on 24 Feb from Perth via Doha, and really, really surprised to not face any temperature testing, or even receive handouts. This was after the Viking cruise line had warned all intending pax that they, (VIKING), would not accept anyone transiting HKG or Macau and from any China port - without a 14 day 'quarantine' period, and there would be pre-boarding temp testing for all. We were further surprised to read about, and watch, the denigration of 2 schools voluntarily locking down after staff tested positive.

quarantine. 1.n
(period of) isolation imposed on ship or persons or animals to prevent infection or contagion

Now in recent times, the very essence of 'quarantine' has been diluted by weak-kneed, bleeding political hearts who have coined the truly disgraceful concept of post-entry quarantine. Under this system, the disease is allowed entry - and then, (when we are absolutely, positively 100% sure, that it really is the feared disease : we'll take action. Too late by then!

As a former plant pathologist who has dealt with plant disease/insect epidemics, I cannot believe the lack of will to target or profile any biosecurity threat, and to hell with wounded national egos if one country decides to block all movements from the threat. That's what makes quarantine effective. If a few dictators are offended ...... tough! Western nations need to grow a pair of balls!

[Flying Hi]

Minor correction - THIS Country needed to grow a pair. Its too late now.
in any case, this 'easing' of Lockdown has nothing to do with the virus passing and Everything to do with 'business' and money. Whats a few more thousand dead people to 'business'?
As long as the money starts to roll in again - -
End of Sunday rant.

[Gypsy]

And why now all of a sudden, on the face of it we’ve had no screening at ports and only limited quarantines, why not 3 months ago when this all kicked off?

Exactly like some other countries

[ATC Watcher]

I keep reading comments similar to this. So how did (flu) virus spread around the globe in the past? Certainly the last 2 big events (1918 and 1957) cannot be blamed upon aviation!!
by ships. same idea, it just took longer to spread from country to country ..

[Gypsy]

What about operating crew of international flights on a overnight layover?

In other countries where this is already in force, lay over crews are confined to their hotel rooms.

[towerview]

Worth a repeat viewing?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOu001PQW_Q

[brakedwell]

I retired in 1997 and am still alive, so I hope to last a little longer. Good luck to those still hoping to continue.

[anson harris]

The Government haven't even said this is going to happen. As far as I can tell it's come about as a result of a leaked conference call to industry on Saturday morning. It's probably useful to have a guide to UK policy making:

1. Daily Mail starts rant about something usually connected to foreigners/immigrants/brown people or all three (ie Meghan Markle).
2. Government floats idea for radical policy in the media or to industry
3. Wait for further high brow analysis from the Daily Mail to see if there's a positive or negative reaction.
4. Depending on outcome either issue denials or proceed accordingly.

In this case, I see they're already denying it, so I'm going to assume it's not happening. If it does happen, it will be too little, too late now I'm afraid. Britain is riddled and it's come about as a result of Government dithering. I think you really have to wonder what is going on when even Greece is looking at us and thinking "WTF"?

[guy_incognito]

It really isn't, you know. In the event of an unsuccessful search for a vaccine, this is the new normal. Everyone gets it and a horrible amount of old and vulnerable will die. It will come as a shock to Western societies that death hasn't been largely vanquished or offloaded onto those that make inappropriate lifestyle choices. In other parts of the world, people live with life threatening diseases in their societies, malaria for example, treat such things as just another of lifes risks and you get on with life as best you can.

Spot on. It's in a gross misrepresentation of the facts to suggest that an acknowledgment that economic reality dictates that all lives cannot be saved is akin to a policy of eugenics and euthanasia. People are displaying an incredibly childish level of naivety if they honestly believe that economic considerations won't, in the near future, outweigh prolonging a few (in statistical terms) lives. We're already seeing that in the USA.

[JCviggen]

The "few more thousand dead people" are in overwhelming majority people who didn't have long to go anyway.

BS. A recent study taking into account their pre-existing conditions found that CV-19 victims died on average 13 years younger if they were male and 11 if female. A lot of people are losing their lives long before they otherwise would have. Medical staff are dropping like flies too.

You might think making things a lot worse is a price worth paying, but people who are actually in charge do not. Sorry, democracy and all that. Your position is not shared by a majority or plurality of voters.

It's also a fallacy that you'd save the economy by re-opening virus be damned. The amount of sick will go up, fear will go up, the economy will still be in the sh!tter. People don't act and spend as normal in a pandemic.

[BehindBlueEyes]

It’s not euthanasia, it’s a fact of life. We’ve made huge medical advances, particularly recently, but no one can live forever and it’s an unavoidable fact, the older you are, generally the lower your resistance to disease. It’s wonderful when you get these fantastic news reports of 99 year old beating Covid - bring it on! - and of course we should try and save lives, but I do wonder how many people on here have been in either a geriatric ward or care home recently? My 88 year old MIL died at the beginning of March with Myeloma and dementia. The desperately sorry state she and other patients were in, it’s no surprise that’s where your greatest casualties are going to be. If carers weren’t feeding them every mouthful, reminding them to drink, taking them to the toilet, they wouldn’t be still be clinging to life as it is. Very, very few people actually die of old age - it’s usually pneumonia, cancer, flu etc. We can’t stop these things completely!

I don’t know why some people see this as a conspiracy to cleanse the world of the elderly. One only has to see the speed and virulence a dose of Norovirus (a minor inconvenience to the young but potentially deadly to the elderly) takes to go through hospitals and care homes to understand just by having a vulnerable group together is unavoidably going to create its own problems.

By the way, don’t believe all the propaganda regarding the NHS you see in the media either. I have friends and family ‘on the front line’ and they are twiddling their thumbs and itching to get back to routine surgery etc as they are spending a lot of time standing around, just in case. A number of them are surprisingly against any further extension of the lockdown too as they can see the long term damage it’s doing to the health system.

[FlipFlapFlop]

The Government haven't even said this is going to happen. As far as I can tell it's come about as a result of a leaked conference call to industry on Saturday morning. It's probably useful to have a guide to UK policy making:

1. Daily Mail starts rant about something usually connected to foreigners/immigrants/brown people or all three (ie Meghan Markle).
2. Government floats idea for radical policy in the media or to industry
3. Wait for further high brow analysis from the Daily Mail to see if there's a positive or negative reaction.
4. Depending on outcome either issue denials or proceed accordingly.

In this case, I see they're already denying it, so I'm going to assume it's not happening. If it does happen, it will be too little, too late now I'm afraid. Britain is riddled and it's come about as a result of Government dithering. I think you really have to wonder what is going on when even Greece is looking at us and thinking "WTF"?

Absolutely spot on. Had begun to think that the lunatic asylum had opened their doors. The UK has no clear strategy. We have dithered and vacillated between solutions. Policy is clearly determined by the Daily Mail and its likes. There was a post yesterday on FaceBook showing a photo of Flight tracker with a 330 from Wuhan exclaiming absolute horror that we should be allowing such a thing. The ignorance of people is staggering when they cannot see that Wuhan had no new cases in the last few days and we have over 5000 a day.

The route out for aviation will require cooperation between countries who have managed to control spread. None that have will allow contagion from the likes of us.

[PaulH1]

But it appears that it is not just the elderly who are dying. Members of th BAME population are up to 90% more likely to die than white people. In our modern world it is probably acceptable to let a few old people pass away - but what about all of those BAME people. There would be a public outcry!

[stoneangel]

agree with Paul...
the problem, is the population gets old everywhere, and retirements are expensive....unfortunately, we should not focus on old people.

[wiggy]

I appreciate that we can only play the hand of cards we have been dealt, in this case CV-19, but I do wonder if "the team" would be similarly relaxed about this if we were looking at a re-run of Spanish Flu...

[Icelanta]

In other countries where this is already in force, lay over crews are confined to their hotel rooms.

crew are mostly exempt from quarantine rules as per ICAO/EASA circular to governments.

[FullWings]

Looking at it from a purely UK aviation angle, is it such a big deal? Were all the airlines gambling on 100% load factors next month?

I don’t think any of the companies involved were expecting much in the way of positive happenings before autumn/winter and have been planning accordingly.

There are also the small matters of: a) it hasn’t been officially confirmed yet and b) non-one knows how long it would go on for, if it did go ahead. Not to mention if accurate and quick testing in situ for the virus and antibodies becomes available, then I’m sure we will switch to that as soon as the numbers make sense.

[wiggy]

crew are mostly exempt from quarantine rules as per ICAO/EASA circular to governments.

Not sure what the circulars say but whilst it appears that generally "native" crews are exempt and can go home post duty (though perhaps having to observe some form of isolation) there are very definitely a few countries, and especially one or two in the Far East, where crews on a layover are confined to the slip hotel or even confined to their rooms, the situation exactly as described by Gypsy.

I've lived that particular aspect of "the dream" in the last few weeks......

[macdo]

[QUOTE=BehindBlueEyes;
By the way, don’t believe all the propaganda regarding the NHS you see in the media either. I have friends and family ‘on the front line’ and they are twiddling their thumbs and itching to get back to routine surgery etc as they are spending a lot of time standing around, just in case. A number of them are surprisingly against any further extension of the lockdown too as they can see the long term damage it’s doing to the health system.[/QUOTE]

This is strange but true. I have been taking my ancient relative to hospital (small city) every week since this started. It is amazing watching the tumbleweed blow down the COVID19 free parts of the hospital. CAT Scan sir, yes please anytime now is fine! Same with our nursing friends who, in different parts of the UK, have a very low workload just now. I'm sure its different in London, Brum etc. but I suspect a great many people are not getting routine treatment they need. How many of those will lead to fatal consequences? The only way we'll know is from the Excess Mortality figures, and they aren't available yet.

No one size fits all in this pandemic.

[Flying Hi]

But it appears that it is not just the elderly who are dying. Members of th BAME population are up to 90% more likely to die than white people. In our modern world it is probably acceptable to let a few old people pass away - but what about all of those BAME people. There would be a public outcry!

The elephant in the room? Maybe they should have taken social distancing seriously.

[Gordomac]

MACDO : I am beginning to sound like a Macdo fan, supporting all your views but, again, you are right on the money. I ragedatt seeing a Vid of fat little NHS nurses dancing round empty wards only to be rounded on by wifey claiming the vid was fake news. Apologies to fat little NHS nurses. I am a bit more wary of propaganda. But, on thread, how will the UK police the 14 day rule of "self" quarantine ? I foresee lots of LHR arrivals smiling with complicity agreements but once outside, saluting with the Churchillian version.

[currawong]

Gordomac:

Some nations are policing it with tracking anklets. Others with phone apps and daily visits by the plod.

Others again in supervised accommodation (all expenses hotel)

[beardy]

Star Trek (1987) -" the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few " has come to pass?
Wonderful, I love how popular fiction has spread philosophy. Now try reading Jeremy Bentham (1748–1832) and his version of Utilitarianism.

[wiggy]

Gordomac:

Some nations are policing it with tracking anklets. Others with phone apps and daily visits by the plod.

Others again in supervised accommodation (all expenses hotel)

Given previous form I suspect any quarantine won't be policed that seriously in the UK and there's no way it'll be an all expenses paid by HMG stay.

It's more likely to be fill in this form and then a bit of a "mind where you go"....

optics, smoke and mirrors etc.

[macdo]

MACDO : I am beginning to sound like a Macdo fan, supporting all your views but, again, you are right on the money. I ragedatt seeing a Vid of fat little NHS nurses dancing round empty wards only to be rounded on by wifey claiming the vid was fake news. Apologies to fat little NHS nurses. I am a bit more wary of propaganda. But, on thread, how will the UK police the 14 day rule of "self" quarantine ? I foresee lots of LHR arrivals smiling with complicity agreements but once outside, saluting with the Churchillian version.
Gordomac I can do with the encouragement! My views on this are not popular at home. Or among our friends. I have made the silent observation that is you were a Pro-Remain, Anti Tory sort of person, you're views automatically were skewed towards whatever this government has done is bound to be wrong. This has been massively reinforced by an antagonistic press and the London luvvies. It has polarized views and I see very little evidence of a sense of national unity in our governing classes, which works to all our detriment. Strangely, Kier Starmer has earnt my respect with his sensible approach to probing the government.

[T250]

As alluded to above, UK quarantine will be a farce.

Re-route your flight via Dublin or any Ireland or Northern Ireland port/airport and you're exempt from quarantine - for long haul flights ADP/taxes tend to be cheaper via DUB anyway!

Or, save the hassle, land direct in UK, whether you give a mickey mouse address or a real one, as nothing appears to stop anyone flying out again 24 hours later.

[Tinwald]

Fella, over here on the Rock we had 14 day quarantine brought in weeks ago tho. 2 weeks in an unoccupied hotel, fenced in, locked in room except for 1 hr, meals on a tray - and that will be £875 payable to the government, ta. Started to relax things here ahaead of the UK now and it's 2 weeks self-isolation and you can even play golf by yourself.

[captain8]

As alluded to above, UK quarantine will be a farce.

Re-route your flight via Dublin or any Ireland or Northern Ireland port/airport and you're exempt from quarantine - for long haul flights ADP/taxes tend to be cheaper via DUB anyway!

Or, save the hassle, land direct in UK, whether you give a mickey mouse address or a real one, as nothing appears to stop anyone flying out again 24 hours later.

So whats your point, ask all passengers to behave unethically and be irresponsible ?
Many laws can be worked around, thats not the point. Its a strong government recommendation, a requirement. Sure folks can obviate it, but then we’re back to the middle ages, aren’t we a civilised trustworthy society?

My grip against the current situation, is that pilots are in their own tunnel, and are unwilling to think outside this. For example, a local authority in the uk received 4million quid to fight covid from the gov. Thats for a city with 200,000 inhabitants . Yet Virgin wants half a billion quid so it can fly a few fat cat business men to the states, and deliver a few bucket and spade holidays to those who can afford it.

Is flying that important? Has it now become irrelevant?

[ZFT]

As alluded to above, UK quarantine will be a farce.

Re-route your flight via Dublin or any Ireland or Northern Ireland port/airport and you're exempt from quarantine - for long haul flights ADP/taxes tend to be cheaper via DUB anyway!

Or, save the hassle, land direct in UK, whether you give a mickey mouse address or a real one, as nothing appears to stop anyone flying out again 24 hours later.

Or land in France take a dingy across!!

[guy_incognito]

My grip against the current situation, is that pilots are in their own tunnel, and are unwilling to think outside this. For example, my local authority received 4million quid to fight covid. Thats for a city with 200,000 inhabitants . Yet Virgin wants half a billion quid so it can fly a few fat cat business men to the states, and deliver a few bucket and spade holidays to those who can afford it.

Is flying that important? Has it now become irrelevant?

You do realise the sheer size of the direct and indirect contribution aviation makes to the UK economy, right?

[anson harris]

So whats your point, ask all passengers to behave unethically and be irresponsible ?
Many laws can be worked around, thats not the point. Its a strong government recommendation, a requirement. Sure folks can obviate it, but then we’re back to the middle ages, aren’t we a civilised trustworthy society?


On Friday, in the supposedly civilised town that I live in, I walked past several street barbecues, all clearly mixing multiple households. So no, I don't think we very trustworthy, sadly. People have clearly had enough, no longer trust the incompetents that they overwhelmingly elected because Boris is a bit of a laugh and have decided to take policy into their own hands. The irony being that they were celebrating VE Day by putting at risk the very people that managed to survive WW2.

Unfortunately the Government have lost the initiative (if they ever had it) and are being held in contempt by people that were until recently doing pretty much as they were told. Control of the situation has been lost and the sooner we accept that and try and mitigate it, the better. A 14 day quarantine for incoming travellers really is the metaphorical re-arranging of the deckchairs.

[Jet II]

I made myself exactly the same remark. Reminds me of these 1939 propaganda posters in Germany saying the weak and sick people in hospitals were costing too much money to the Empire...

I'd suggest that the point you are rather missing is that it is not a simple either/or question - it is plainly not a case of saving lives or saving the economy, in both situations people will die. We are already seeing more deaths from people who are afraid to go to hospital for other diseases, deaths from cancer treatment being delayed, mores suicides from loss of job or business etc etc.

In todays Telegraph Doctors in New York hospitals are saying that the lockdown must be lifted there immediately due to the negative effects it is already having on the population.


Peter Singer, a bioethics professor at Princeton, said officials need to think about the consequences other than in terms of deaths. “I think the consequences are horrific, in terms of unemployment in particular, which has been shown to have a very serious effect on well-being, and particularly for poorer people.

“Yes, people will die if we open up, but the consequences of not opening up are so severe that maybe we’ve got to do it anyway.” he told the New York Times.

[homonculus]

Who knows if a bioethics professor is qualified to discuss the economy, what will happen with the economy and whether the situation with the New York economy is the same as the UK? You only have to look at the markets, which seem to suggest the problem is sorted, to realise the risk in listening to anyone

We should never have got where we are - closing the borders and track and trace in January would have possibly prevented the need for lockdown in the UK, and the phytogenetics suggest it would also have prevented the New York pandemic....but from where we are now we cant release lockdown until new cases are at a level we can track and trace. Of the nine major countries that are releasing lockdown, 4 had new cases in single figures and the others were at a few hundred a day. The UK is at around 4000 positive new tests a day so the true new infection rate is well above anything we can control. To save the economy, and therefore to save aviation in the long term, we need to close the borders and keep lockdown now. My catchphrase would be 'short and sharp'

What will actually happen will I suspect be quite different....

[Jet II]

We should never have got where we are - closing the borders and track and trace in January would have possibly prevented the need for lockdown in the UK,

Surely that is just operating with hindsight - the WTO didn't declare it a pandemic until the middle of March so to claim that the Government should have closed the UK Borders in January is not very practical.

I can just imagine the outrage on this forum had they shut aviation down in January.

[cats_five]

Surely that is just operating with hindsight - the WTO didn't declare it a pandemic until the middle of March so to claim that the Government should have closed the UK Borders in January is not very practical.

I can just imagine the outrage on this forum had they shut aviation down in January.

Greece seems to have managed to control coronavirus despite being almost bankrupt. Compare & contrast. :( WHO " declared a Public Health Emergency of International Concern on 30 January 2020." Not a pandemic, but a pretty stern warning.

[dead_pan]

I'd have thought that, having spent the past five years talking about and planning to take back control of our borders, all this quarantine mullarkey should be a walk in the park for us to organise?

[CaptainMongo]

Be glad it's as simple as country borders. In the US, you have to worry about state borders (and different lockdown procedures) as well as individual corporate policies. A relative who works for the gov't was told they are mission essential and needs to travel across the country. Problem - once they get there they need to self-quarantine for 14 days before they report to work at the target organization. Totally absurd.

It’s absurd because it’s not true. Federal law, in this case, supersedes state law.

[infrequentflyer789]

On Friday, in the supposedly civilised town that I live in, I walked past several street barbecues, all clearly mixing multiple households. So no, I don't think we very trustworthy, sadly. People have clearly had enough, no longer trust the incompetents that they overwhelmingly elected because Boris is a bit of a laugh and have decided to take policy into their own hands. The irony being that they were celebrating VE Day by putting at risk the very people that managed to survive WW2.

Part of the blame has to go on the opposition for the non-compliance right now - "tell us the plan" "how are we going to get out of lockdown" and the big one "treat the public like adults". So they published or leaked the plans. Result? - the "adult" public goes off half cocked down the planned route way earlier than they should. People are already talking about who is in their "bubble".

But it didn't start this weekend, far too many of us have been working-around or totally ignoring the lockdown since the beginning. I am in the shielding group (and no, for the benefit of other posters above, it's not because I only have months to live, with the pills I can expect decades, in fact normal life expectancy, with covid, probably worse odds than russian roulette) so I am not walking the streets, but I don't have to, just watching the neighbours from my windows, almost all of them have been having extended family or friends round to visit, but I've mostly given up ranting about it. Sad thing is they are all supposedly intelligent folk, it is likely none of them voted for Boris as this area is solidly middle-class liberal/labour voting and remainer.

It is just lack of social responsibility, the WWII veterans were asked to endure terrible things and risk (or lay down) their lives to save others, we're being asked to sit on our f**ing sofas to save others, and "wah wah it's too hard". Weird thing is, I think it's catching, because if we get through this and when boot is on the other foot and the covidiots want some social responsibility from me, I am now resolved to get every clarification, look for every loophole, invoke my human rights to do what I damned well want, and mutter loudly about karma while I'm at it.

[infrequentflyer789]

But it appears that it is not just the elderly who are dying. Members of th BAME population are up to 90% more likely to die than white people. In our modern world it is probably acceptable to let a few old people pass away - but what about all of those BAME people. There would be a public outcry!

There already is, and calls for a public inquiry. They should have a public inquiry into sickle cell anemia while they are at it, that one is racist too.
Anyone who engages brain (and maybe does a bit of reading) can see that there are obvious reasons for the link (and no, it's not poverty - BAME doctors, consultants, are over represented too, hardly in the lower socio-economic groups).

Odd that no one is calling for a public inquiry into why men are twice as likely to die as women though isn't it?

[guy_incognito]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8302055/Bail-billions-anaesthetise-reality-economy-tatters.html

I'm sure there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth because of where it was published, but the author of this article is someone who knows what he's talking about. The lamentable, weak non-decision making by government is leading us towards a situation which may not be recoverable if it continues for much longer.

[Flying Hi]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8302055/Bail-billions-anaesthetise-reality-economy-tatters.html

I'm sure there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth because of where it was published, but the author of this article is someone who knows what he's talking about. The lamentable, weak non-decision making by government is leading us towards a situation which may not be recoverable if it continues for much longer.

If it's in the Fail it must be true.
However, this time it might just be.

[infrequentflyer789]

There's also another side to the problem. How many countries grant admission to arrivals from the UK now, bar their own nationals who are mandated to quarantine after arrival from the UK? I can think of a good few who don't let in anyone other then their nationals, let alone arrivals from what sadly became one of the countries with the worst epidemic profile in Europe.

Just to add another side to the problem pile: insurance. Specifically travel insurance.

My annual policy came up for renewal recently, and basically it was impossible to renew unless I accepted no cover for any existing conditions, even those previously declared (or I could go through a new med screening, at a call centre that wasn't taking calls). SAFI cover was also gone, but worse was a new clause that COVID was not covered at all, for anything, not just cancellation or curtailment but no medical cover either. Not just no medical cover if you get it (or get it again) but no medical cover for anything related to COVID as a pre-existing condition. Since the long term effects of COVID are not known (which is why they won't cover it) and it does damage (by direct viral attack, by oxygen deprivation and by blood clots) to potentially _any_ organ, any of which could cause problems at any time, basically if you fall ill you won't be covered unless either you can prove it was solely down to something else or prove you have never had COVID. The very people who ought to feel safest travelling, those who have already had it, will have to travel effectively without medical cover.

I reckon these clauses, and the renewal refusals, will be temporary, 12 - 18 months when more is known about the global prevalence and the long term risks of having had it, and I think they'll be gone - but it is going to be a very tough couple of years for aviation and travel industries. I certainly don't see things bouncing back this summer, or winter.

[b1lanc]

It’s absurd because it’s not true. Federal law, in this case, supersedes state law.
Really, go enforce it. US has a federalist system of government which places the majority of relevent law enforcement in the states hands. The fed could order a nationwide lockdown, but it would be up to the states/cities to enforce it. Not going to happen. The federal government has left it up to the states to determine individual lockdown methods after reviewing federal law. In some cases cities write their own rules (NYC for example). Above that, corporations and the federal gov't agencies themselves have the ability to set there own guidelines locally. Last week Microsoft sent everyone home. This week Google. Want to travel on business from Massachusetts to Texas? Arrive in TX and self-quarantine for 14 days before being allowed to enter workplace. Return to MA? Self- quarantine for another 14 days. Return to NH instead, go to work in MA the next day. Ask the governor of Rhode Island what happened when she tried to block entry of vehicles from NY into RI. Didn't work.

[b1lanc]

Just to add another side to the problem pile: insurance. Specifically travel insurance.


Hope you don't need it, but you might also want to check your life insurance policy. Many have exclusions for acts of war and pandemics.

[white light]

The PM mentioned the proposed quarantine in his speech, (briefly), but didn’t mention any time limits..

good or bad?

[Melax]

Corona virus and antibody tests before boarding should resolve the issue ( I understand they now have "quick" tests for both), allowing to fully populate the airplanes seats safely...
If the tests are reliable enough and accepted by the destination authorities just factor the costs in the ticket price...
It will the cheaper alternative, also explore the possibility of government subsidies for such tests.
And voila the airline industry is saved !! (WELL.... easier said than done) to be continued...
Of course there is always the possibility of being "freshly" exposed at the airport counter or the taxi :}...

[Radgirl]

Not that simple Melax. The antibody test shows if you have had it. Probably only 10-15% of the population, and not all get antibodies, so would stop over 90% flying. We can do PCR - the swabs - but they take 4 hours and have a false negative rate of 40%...So they wont keep crew or other passengers safe

As we reopen hospital we plan to enforce 10-14 days quarantine, then do aquestionnaire, then a PCR swab, and then 2 days later admit, check temperature and examine the chest. All that will only give 97.5% pickup although most of the remaining 2.5% will probably not be that infectious....However we doctors and nurses will still wear full PPE

So even if you could get people to quarantine for 2 weeks and had somewhere to do the tests it still wont be foolproof......I dont see how you canmatch the level of safety we will apply to hospitals where patients are under pressure to take a risk for their cancer or hernia.

[Melax]

Hmm, I have different info, Abbott's PCR test returns results in less than 5 Minutes (Mesabiotech 30mins / Cepheid 45mins), 70%(Abbott) accuracy, so a combination of different tests should reduce the error rate to an acceptable level . Time to get results is not the issue, the antibody test is useful if indeed it is proven that reinfection is impossible or extremely low and they cannot be carriers / spreaders so in fact immunized.
I'm sure scientists can figure this out
On a side note (sarcasm) It would be nice if scanning people thru a UVC source was safe to kill newly topically exposed humans, unfortunately it seems to be very dangerous. That's how they disinfect buses(empty:}) in China.

[Jet II]

The PM mentioned the proposed quarantine in his speech, (briefly), but didn’t mention any time limits..

good or bad?

I'm more confused now than I was before - there might be a 14 day quarantine at some point in the future but it wont apply to anyone flying in from Ireland or France. Given that France has one of the worst Covid19 problems in Europe then what is the science behind this decision?

[covec]

Ireland is still regarded as being “part of the family” per se re the British Isles. Internal flights in other words, not international.

Appreciate fully the irony of the UK being in the EU as regards to internal vs international flights but there you go.

[wiggy]

I'm more confused now than I was before - there might be a 14 day quarantine at some point in the future but it wont apply to anyone flying in from Ireland or France. Given that France has one of the worst Covid19 problems in Europe then what is the science behind this decision?

Sorry I just read that and spilt my cafe over the screen and got pain au chocolat crumbs in my keyboard...you're are right of course, depending on the metrics France has got one of the worse....and the winner is....??

I think one of the big worries the French Government have, and have expressed quite strongly in recent weeks, is the UK's awful Covid-19 problem and the risk of travellers from the UK bringing the virus into France....so I'm just as puzzled by the the idea of "free" travel between the UK and France as you are- or maybe the French will maintain their fairly draconian inbound restrictions on individuals travelling from the UK..we will see.

[ATC Watcher]

Looking a wordometer for yesterday , UK has 220.000 cases and 4000 new ones last 24h , France has 180.000 cases but only 300 new cases yesterday , 170.000 and 500 new cases in Germany .
So this indicates clearly the pandemic has not yet peaked in the UK and lifting restrictions will only make matter worse. If I was a UK resident I would not be worried about air passengers coming from France or Germany ...but those coming on domestic flights ..

[anson harris]

Not that simple Melax. The antibody test shows if you have had it. Probably only 10-15% of the population, and not all get antibodies, so would stop over 90% flying. We can do PCR - the swabs - but they take 4 hours and have a false negative rate of 40%...So they wont keep crew or other passengers safe

As we reopen hospital we plan to enforce 10-14 days quarantine, then do aquestionnaire, then a PCR swab, and then 2 days later admit, check temperature and examine the chest. All that will only give 97.5% pickup although most of the remaining 2.5% will probably not be that infectious....However we doctors and nurses will still wear full PPE

So even if you could get people to quarantine for 2 weeks and had somewhere to do the tests it still wont be foolproof......I dont see how you canmatch the level of safety we will apply to hospitals where patients are under pressure to take a risk for their cancer or hernia.

The solutions don't have to be foolproof do they? I mean flying a plane isn't foolproof. We just have to have sufficient measures to significantly manage the risk.

[Vendee]

Looking a wordometer for yesterday , UK has 220.000 cases and 4000 new ones last 24h , France has 180.000 cases but only 300 new cases yesterday , 170.000 and 500 new cases in Germany .
So this indicates clearly the pandemic has not yet peaked in the UK and lifting restrictions will only make matter worse. If I was a UK resident I would not be worried about air passengers coming from France or Germany ...but those coming on domestic flights ..

You do have to be careful about "new case" figures because these are dependant on how much testing occurs in each country but you are right, the UK is in a worse state than France or Germany and we will end up with more fatalities than those other countries. Considering we in the UK had longer than others to react and prepare for this, our stats are nothing short of criminal.

[Dan Dare]

UK is in the top of global per-capita mortality rate it stands to reason that UK must be in the top for infection rate too (assuming a roughly equivalent mortality rate from infection). If our visitor is not from Belgium or Spain, then they are statistically less likely than a UK resident to have or transmit C19. Why quarantine them? Surely they are safer.

[DaveJ75]

So this indicates clearly the pandemic has not yet peaked in the UK.

Or does it indicate that doing more testing produces more cases...?

[ORAC]

Figures aren't comparable. It will probably be years before we know the true statistics.

In the UK the total includes all hospital, care home and home deaths where the doctor has indicated COVID as a cause. In France the count those who die in hospital and care homes, but not home deaths. In Spain they only count those who have tested positive for coronavirus.

It would also seem Germany's widely praised low figures may not have included many tens of thousands in their care homes.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/04/10/care-a10.html

[Fostex]

It would also seem Germany's widely praised low figures may not have included many tens of thousands in their care homes.


Germany also declare cases with co-morbidities slightly differently. For example, if we had a palliative patient with Covid19 who died due to their underlying pathology, for example cancer; it would still be declared as a Covid19 death. In Germany it would not.

[lederhosen]

Interesting post there OLAC from the World Socialist Web Site, which I must admit I have never heard of and suspect may not be totally unbiased. It makes some interesting points particularly about the lack of testing, and I have had similar thoughts about the numbers in Germany. That there is some delay in reporting and some genuine difficulties where you draw the line on comorbidities in undisputed. However having done a bit of research I have found clear evidence that care home cases are being included in the German statistics being produced by the Robert Koch Institute, with the obvious caveat that they can only include those that are known about. As I posted on Coronavirus:the thread in Jet Blast yesterday analysing the RKI situation report for yesterday 10 May 2020:

Of the 13,708 residents of care homes in Germany reported as infected 2,708 have died, so about 20% mortality of those tested positive.

I have also seen the excess mortality figures for the three weeks up to mid April for Germany. These show an increase of 10% in the seasonally adjusted deaths. So at least up till then the scale of excess mortality was dramatically lower than the recent ONS data for the UK. This is not to say that there is no problem. But deaths in care homes officially make up more than a third of the total 7,500 in Germany so far reported. So I think we can safely conclude that they are included.

[ATC Watcher]

NoelEvans (https://www.pprune.org/members/482525-noelevans) : Regarding the 'environment':
Maybe reading a bit more scientific information would prevent you to make such statements . Short term and long term are very different things . .
Here below some reading for a rainy day .
https://www.atmos-chem-phys.net/19/8163/2019/

[Jet II]

Sorry I just read that and spilt my cafe over the screen and got pain au chocolat crumbs in my keyboard...you're are right of course, depending on the metrics France has got one of the worse....and the winner is....??

I think one of the big worries the French Government have, and have expressed quite strongly in recent weeks, is the UK's awful Covid-19 problem and the risk of travellers from the UK bringing the virus into France....so I'm just as puzzled by the the idea of "free" travel between the UK and France as you are- or maybe the French will maintain their fairly draconian inbound restrictions on individuals travelling from the UK..we will see.

Well the French have already confirmed that they will not impose a 14 day quarantine on UK visitors if we do the same for theirs. But that is not the point - if the science decides that a quarantine is needed the OK, but then why give an exception to one of the worst hit places in Europe?. Also what is the difference between a train, a boat and an airplane - why do arrivals on aircraft need to be treated differently to arrivals by the other 2 methods?.

As I said - I like to see the science behind this decision.

[anxiao]

Just to be smug, tonight is the last night of my 14 day quarantine, it expires at 23.59. Should I go out and paint the town red or just rollover and carry on sleeping?

Seriously, I have been in isolation for nearly 4 weeks now in two countries, and it is not as easy as you might think. We have managed it without redeemable domestic stress, but many couples might not. I can think of a few women in my past that would have been ropeable after four days of it. You need to keep a careful watch on your stress states, and work out a plan to be sound at the end of it. As Mrs anxiao pointed out, you'd better stay out of jail if this is the home version of it.

Anyway a bottle of bubbles has been opened and we are off to our respective delights tomorrow, me to the doctor for a PSA test and she to a hairdressers.

First world problems really but don't dismiss the 14 days as a reading/web surfing holiday.

[Life of Leisure]

According to the BBC News web site "The government later clarified that the rules would apply not just to air passengers, but also those arriving by other means of travel such as train or ferry."

[Pilot DAR]

Please do not make personal attacks on anyone, nor speculation about their medical or mental condition in posts.

[peter we]

Greece seems to have managed to control coronavirus despite being almost bankrupt. Compare & contrast. :( WHO " declared a Public Health Emergency of International Concern on 30 January 2020." Not a pandemic, but a pretty stern warning.

Every country was free to follow or not follow WHO's advice. The UK ignored it.

[Vendee]

Every country was free to follow or not follow WHO's advice. The UK ignored it.

That's not completely true. They decided to cherry pick parts of the WHO's advice when it suited them i.e. allowing reduced standard of PPE for health workers when we failed to provide enough.

[standbykid]

So riddle me this...if I need to make a quick trip (2 days) to the UK for compassionate reasons (saying a final goodbye) from overseas, using a UK passport, do I have to self isolate in the UK for 2 weeks? Seems unnecessary when I can do the isolation after returning back to my current home.

[Flying Hi]

So riddle me this...if I need to make a quick trip (2 days) to the UK for compassionate reasons (saying a final goodbye) from overseas, using a UK passport, do I have to self isolate in the UK for 2 weeks? Seems unnecessary when I can do the isolation after returning back to my current home.
Travel via France?

[guy_incognito]

So riddle me this...if I need to make a quick trip (2 days) to the UK for compassionate reasons (saying a final goodbye) from overseas, using a UK passport, do I have to self isolate in the UK for 2 weeks? Seems unnecessary when I can do the isolation after returning back to my current home.

Presumably given the requirement to self-isolate at a designated address, you'd only be able to say your final goodbye if you were staying at the person in question's place of residence. You do raise an interesting point: the way the guidelines have been presented, stays of fewer than 14 days would seem impossible.

Badly thought out political optics.

[standbykid]

Travel via France?
Seriously wondering if that's the way to go.

[PilotLZ]

Even more interestingly, what's the point of restrictions which can be worked around so easily? You either do a proper border closing and quarantine for the odd arrival for, say, 2 months - or don't do anything other than some rudimentary form of health control at the airport. Anything in between will achieve nothing but smash up whatever's left of the industry for no real benefit to the population.

[Flying Hi]

Seriously wondering if that's the way to go.

We don't care. They don't care.

[PaulH1]

Is that the same WHO who probably knew about the virus last December, but for their own reasons did not act upon it? I would not trust them with anything from now on.

[stephenwilliams40]

Its currently not possible for non-french residents to travel into France. Travellers on non French and EU passports need to self declare on arrival in France that either they are going to their primary residence, or working in medical missions, diplomatic, or aircrew/transport workers etc. It would appear from the latest comminque from Elysee Palace that our fantastic negotiator Boris has a achieved a one-way deal in favour of the French who can travel to the UK freely, and back to France at will. Thousands of UK citizens with homes in France are not allowed that priviledge.

[NoelEvans]

... It would appear from the latest comminque from Elysee Palace that our fantastic negotiator Boris has a achieved a one-way deal in favour of the French who can travel to the UK freely, and back to France at will. ...
"No quarantine measures would apply to travellers coming from France at this stage; any measures on either side would be taken in a concerted and reciprocal manner."

[BehindBlueEyes]

Is that the same WHO who probably knew about the virus last December, but for their own reasons did not act upon it? I would not trust them with anything from now on.

Yep. The same WHO who, on 3 February, were urging countries not to close their borders to travellers from China.

”WHO chief Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus says 151 cases of the disease and one death have been confirmed in 23 countries outside China. He says this small number of cases can be managed without countries resorting to extreme measures.“ :ugh:

https://www.voanews.com/science-health/coronavirus-outbreak/who-chief-urges-countries-not-close-borders-foreigners-china

[vikingivesterled]

So riddle me this...if I need to make a quick trip (2 days) to the UK for compassionate reasons (saying a final goodbye) from overseas, using a UK passport, do I have to self isolate in the UK for 2 weeks? Seems unnecessary when I can do the isolation after returning back to my current home.

I can see medical quarantine is a custome that have faded from memory among many.
To recap, in principle you should on arrival not have contact with anyone and relocate to your place of quarantine immediately. Only after the required quarantine (self isolation) time have passed should you come out into society and do your planned business. When you return home you will probably have to go into quarantine again for the length of time your country require for foreign arrivals.
Meaning there is no longer such a thing as a quick 2 day trip abroad. If a loved one abroad even within Europe passed you could be asking for a funeral in 2 weeks time and be doing a 1 month round trip including return quarantine. If there was passenger flights available, besides the limits many countries have set on how many can attend gatherings including a funeral.

There could be limited policing of this but if you turn up at the airport agian 2 days after arrival there could be some awkward questions to answer.

This type of quarantining is not a new idea. Ellis Island outside New York was used for that purpose for many years. Other harbours had dedicated island docks or buoys where arriving foreign ships had to stay for a certain period of time before anybody was alloed to put a foot ashore. Some towns had dedicated facilities just outside the town walls for this purpose even for visitors not coming by ship. Maybe the whole thing works better in those countries that bring foreign arrivals diretly from the airport, no matter what passport, to a dedicated guarded compound for their quarantine. I believe I read that is the practice in Australia, or whas it New Zealand, or both.

[bbrown1664]

So riddle me this...if I need to make a quick trip (2 days) to the UK for compassionate reasons (saying a final goodbye) from overseas, using a UK passport, do I have to self isolate in the UK for 2 weeks? Seems unnecessary when I can do the isolation after returning back to my current home.

I am hoping you are joking, but in the event you are not.....

We want you to isolate so you dont bring the lurgy into our country. We have enough of it already here without you bringing more into circulation.

[stephenwilliams40]

"No quarantine measures would apply to travellers coming from France at this stage; any measures on either side would be taken in a concerted and reciprocal manner."
Current measures are not reciprocal and havent been since the lockdown. Brits cannot travel to France unless they live in France and can prove France is their PRIMARY residence. On the other hand the French can visit the UK for as short or long a period as they wish, and return to France with no restriction. This is not a reciprocal situation.

[wiggy]

Yes, I do wonder if it's a case of "we've agreed to reciprocate so there's no quarantine for Brits if you can get into France , but (like all non-French nationals and barring certain exceptions ) you still aren't actually allowed in".

[Adambrau]

OK talking about 14-day quarantines did you know that NY/NJ residents are supposed to fill out a form and self quarantine upon arrival in Florida? Unfortunately my Father-in-Law passed last week and Thursday I fly down for a very private small soc-distanced commemoration. Funeral to be when it can be later. After spending a few days short of 2 months in my NYC apartment and strictly obeying Government guidance, I really do have very mixed thoughts about this trip. It really angers me the number of Americans not following the direction of their Governor/Mayor and now I am going to be that person. But in all honesty I am more worried about getting sick by Floridians than vv. NB because Florida does not actively enforce quarantine of NY/NJ folks - buying two 1-way tickets will evade entry to the Sunshine State. Head scratching.

As for the exemption of French citizens into the UK and vv?, if and when there is a 14 day quarantine instituted wouldn't France be more worried about UK citizens visiting than the other way around? UK still peaking France less so, for the moment at least. I have lived in both your beautiful countries and work for Air France so of course I am excited to hear of of borders opening. Or at least being contemplated. I wish everyone health, safe travel and best wishes for all families in this uncertain moment.

[Stickshift3000]

Many states in Australia have had mandatory 14-day quarantine in hotels for all overseas arrivals (air and sea) at the state's cost since mid-March. There is very little that can be done about it. There are also many interstate travel restrictions and quarantine requirements for those hoping to move around within the country.

Fairly archaic treatment of people, and at times there have been humans rights' implications (most notable the inadequate assessment of 'detainees' mental health issues, including a suicide while in quarantine).

On a positive note, the majority of Australia's COVID cases had origins from overseas travelers and this mandatory quarantine has assisted in controlling numbers.

[GS-Alpha]

Is Summer cancelled?

People are unlikely to be able to go on foreign summer holidays this year, Health Secretary Matt Hancock says.

Asked whether "summer was cancelled", he tells ITV's This Morning: "I think that's likely to be the case.

"We haven't made a final decision on that yet but it is clear that we will seek to reopen hospitality, some hospitality, from early July if we keep successfully reducing the spread of this virus.

"But social distancing of some kind is going to continue.

"The conclusion from that is it is unlikely that big, lavish international holidays are going to possible for this summer.

"I just think that's a reality of life."

[foxcharliep2]

Spain today introduced a mandatory strict 14 day quarantine on all travellers as of May 15th.

[lederhosen]

Inevitably governments will look at countries that appear to be doing better and identify what they are doing differently. Face masks on public transport and in shops, contact tracing and some form of control of people coming into your country are some of the obvious candidates. Some may be more useful and practical than others. Making these things voluntary is an option, but does not seem at the moment certain to have the best outcome. I am optimistic that more people have had the infection and will be shown to have some form of immunity. But until we know for sure doing nothing is unlikely to be the best plan.

[Ebbie 2003]

We already have it here in Dominica, the provisions here going back more than two months were draconian compared to the UK. We are projected to be a virus free country this month, only 16 cases, no deaths, all recovered save for 2 mild cases.

As it happens I am in the government quarantine here, get out on Friday, after I flew my plane to Barbados, refuelled and flew back - just wanted to do an engine health precautionay flight (30 minutes solo out over the sea) after it not having been flow for overva month, but they said no - an international flight no problem - then 14 days in a hotel suite (no visitors and tourists so they are empty). The change of location was welcome after over six weeks at home only briefly leaving three times.

No question though it will kill airtravel and tourism - IF there was a flight to the UK a one week stay in the UK would take five weeks - so hell, not doing that!

[golder]

It's official, my state is covid free. Is this the first place on earth?
https://www-dailymail-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8322627/amp/Western-Australia-ELIMINATES-coronavirus-no-active-cases-left-state.html?amp_js_v=a3&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA%3D#aoh=15895464806783&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailymail.co.uk%2Fnews%2Farticle-8322627%2FWestern-Australia-ELIMINATES-coronavirus-no-active-cases-left-state.html

[Typhoon Tripacer]

It's official, my state is covid free. Is this the first place on earth?
https://www-dailymail-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8322627/amp/Western-Australia-ELIMINATES-coronavirus-no-active-cases-left-state.html?amp_js_v=a3&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA%3D#aoh=15895464806783&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailymail.co.uk%2Fnews%2Farticle-8322627%2FWestern-Australia-ELIMINATES-coronavirus-no-active-cases-left-state.html
Well done to Western Australia but now the authorities there have a bit of a problem. As hardly anyone has immunity they will have to maintain suspension of all entry from overseas until a vaccine is produced hopefully in a years time, or start to use antibody tests on all travelers. It will be good if the latter plan becomes possible.

[CDRW]

WA now exists as an island inside an island whose borders are closed.

[Gordomac]

Golder : Well done Oz. Although, you were in the summer (any viruses don't like heat ) you are now headed into winter. They often call this the "flu season". WHO will call it the "Second wave" . Well, they would, wouldn't they ? Here in sunny Cyprus it is 42c today. Local rag headline was " Infection cases zero " . Honestly, you can't make this up . In my Village, we are mostly retired and many have "underlying" health issues. No-one got the virus & we are all still stumbling about, emerging out of lock-down when permitted. I am definitely with the alternative views on this and no longer call them the "Loony left" . Cripes, will probably go missing now !

[ZFT]

​​​​​​In sunny Thailand, local rag heading is "Double Zeroes" meaning no infections or deaths countrywide yet still under national curfew and certain lockdown conditions.

At least we are now permitted to buy alcohol at stores but any form of entertainment is a long way off. Why?

[White Knight]

Although, you were in the summer (any viruses don't like heat ) you are now headed into winter.

Mmmm. Plenty of cases here in the Gulf region and it's bl00dy hot and there's plenty of UV around!

[Retired DC9 driver]

Adambrau wrote,
OK talking about 14-day quarantines did you know that NY/NJ residents are supposed to fill out a form and self quarantine upon arrival in Florida?

If I want to travel to our summer cottage, in Canada, from the USA, I have to self quarantine for 2 weeks. I have to proceed directly to the cottage, on an island. No stopping for any supplies, food , once I enter Canada. No leaving the property, even to buy groceries for 2 weeks. So friends will have to provide me with food, or anything else I need.
If I didn't have a Canadian Passport, I wouldn't be allowed into Canada at all.
Incidentally I have been self-quarantined, here in Vermont for over a month.

[ShotOne]

Why now? What’s the logic in shutting down UK aviation now -just as other industries and borders elsewhere are cautiously opening up?

[Longtimer]

If I want to travel to our summer cottage, in Canada, from the USA, I have to self quarantine for 2 weeks. I have to proceed directly to the cottage, on an island. No stopping for any supplies, food , once I enter Canada. No leaving the property, even to buy groceries for 2 weeks. So friends will have to provide me with food, or anything else I need.
If I didn't have a Canadian Passport, I wouldn't be allowed into Canada at all.
Incidentally I have been self-quarantined, here in Vermont for over a month.
Not sure of your point, the same applies to Canadians owning property in the US.

[Gordomac]

WhiteKnight : Mmmmmm, see your point but Africa, vast, hot, not showing the rates expected even though Social Distancing in Soweto must be the larf of the day. Interesting view here is possibly the hackneyed phrase "Underlying health issues". Middle East is also vast & hot but. oh dear, lots of enderlying issues I venture to suggest. I only did 17 years in Bahrain & I suggest that very poor diet choices and widespread obesity combined with the consequential Type 2 Diabetes would have had an impact on the "many cases" you suggest.

[rcsa]

WhiteKnight : Mmmmmm, see your point but Africa, vast, hot, not showing the rates expected even though Social Distancing in Soweto must be the larf of the day. Interesting view here is possibly the hackneyed phrase "Underlying health issues". Middle East is also vast & hot but. oh dear, lots of enderlying issues I venture to suggest. I only did 17 years in Bahrain & I suggest that very poor diet choices and widespread obesity combined with the consequential Type 2 Diabetes would have had an impact on the "many cases" you suggest.

I wonder if the same applies in Germany v UK. A lot more chubby chaps and chapettes in UK than in Germany. Plus although there are plenty of people from Arab/Turkish/Iranian backgrounds in Germany, there are nothing like as many of South Asian or Afro-Caribbean descent - and it seems, reading between the statistical lines, that being chubby, diabetic, 50+ and of south Asian or Afro-Caribbean ancestry puts one right smack in the cross hairs of this one.

[Landflap]

Thanks rcsa. You give four qualifiers for the cross hairs.. I scored 4 out of 4. That's me f ' d !

I also did time in the desert. It gets "bloody" cold there too , White Knight , especially in the "flu season". I suspect that is the time the Middle East saw most cases. After Feb, it quickly hots up and, hello , cases start to dwindle. That's if you believe all the hype .

Going on a diet. Might even reverse the type 2. Still leaves me scoring 2 out of 4, Even stevens for the next flu season. Oooops, sorry, I mean "second wave " in sunny Ealing.

[Ebbie 2003]

For what it's worth.

I am hypertensive and type 2 - have skirted the medical requirements for years.

After six weeks of isolation (oddly little or no recreational eating) and two weeks in quarantine (they asked about conditions, so fed me their diabetic diet) - I have lost a chunk of weight. Tested myself BP and sugar - get this BP 100/72 (after I stopped taking my beta blocker and diretic) and blood sugar of 5.2, a 4.6 and then 6.7 after eating - prior to this was struggling to keep it close to 8 (I take no diabetic drugs). So I seem to have benefitted from this whole virus thing - silver linings.

On a related note yesterday the country was declared virus free and after no deaths in this first wave - lockdown rules, curfew and closed borders continue in prep for the second wave.

[rcsa]

Thanks rcsa. You give four qualifiers for the cross hairs.. I scored 4 out of 4. That's me f ' d !

I also did time in the desert. It gets "bloody" cold there too , White Knight , especially in the "flu season". I suspect that is the time the Middle East saw most cases. After Feb, it quickly hots up and, hello , cases start to dwindle. That's if you believe all the hype .

Going on a diet. Might even reverse the type 2. Still leaves me scoring 2 out of 4, Even stevens for the next flu season. Oooops, sorry, I mean "second wave " in sunny Ealing.

Sorry buddy! that was a tactless musing on my part. Good luck with reducing the target profile!

[PilotLZ]

Looks like quarantine-free travel is becoming possible in certain regions of Europe. First were the Baltic states - Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia. Today Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia followed suit to lift the quarantine from 1 June. Quite possibly many more to follow suit soon.

[White Knight]

WhiteKnight : Mmmmmm, see your point but Africa, vast, hot, not showing the rates expected even though Social Distancing in Soweto must be the larf of the day. Interesting view here is possibly the hackneyed phrase "Underlying health issues". Middle East is also vast & hot but. oh dear, lots of enderlying issues I venture to suggest. I only did 17 years in Bahrain & I suggest that very poor diet choices and widespread obesity combined with the consequential Type 2 Diabetes would have had an impact on the "many cases" you suggest.

Absolutely. Ruddy Uber Eats, Zomato etc delivering sh1tty food here throughout the lockdown...

[250 kts]

​​​​​​In sunny Thailand, local rag heading is "Double Zeroes" meaning no infections or deaths countrywide yet still under national curfew and certain lockdown conditions.

At least we are now permitted to buy alcohol at stores but any form of entertainment is a long way off. Why?
Do you really believe the govt figures though? Only 3000 cases and 56 deaths bearing in mind it was the first foreign country outside China to report a death.

[Del Prado]

Do you really believe the govt figures though? Only 3000 cases and 56 deaths bearing in mind it was the first foreign country outside China to report a death.

Thailand responded really well to this; lockdown, curfew, contact tracing, ban on passenger flights, ban on foreign tourists, medical tests for arrivals (before ban) and other measures were put in place very quickly and have remained. In fact most Asian countries seem to have done better than many western countries, perhaps because of previous experience with SARS or maybe a lack of complacency.

No country’s figures will ever be totally accurate but they are by and large a function of that government’s response so while their totals could be double or treble what’s reported it’s highly unlikely they are approaching US, UK or Brasil levels of infection and deaths.

[3wheels]

Thailand responded really well to this;.

I don’t think it’s neighbours such as Cambodia, Laos, or Vietnam have been so strict. However the sum total of deaths in those countries is Zero!

It’s other neighbours Myanmar and Malasia have recorded 6 and 114 deaths respectively. All permanently hot countries.

As an aside Eva Air Flight 68 left Heathrow with 264 passengers last Sunday and arrived in Bangkok on Monday with 9 passengers showing a high fever. They were all taken to hospital. The other passengers were all quarantined (as per normal procedures).

The big question is why the f##k were they allowed to board in London? Isn’t there at least temperature screening at Heathrow? Is there? No wonder we are in the state we are in ....

See newspaper report here ...
https://www.nationthailand.com/news/30388121?utm_source=homepage&utm_medium=internal_referral

[Chris2303]

However the reported sum total of deaths in those countries is Zero!

Seems strange that the total is zero

[Del Prado]

I don’t think it’s neighbours such as Cambodia, Laos, or Vietnam have been so strict. However the sum total of deaths in those countries is Zero!

It’s other neighbours Myanmar and Malasia have recorded 6 and 114 deaths respectively. All permanently hot countries.


Vietnam have been very strict too - they were accused of overreacting at first.



There are currently no temperature checks at Heathrow, however we are looking to trial them in the coming weeks, alongside other new measures.
- from Heathrow website.

[ZFT]

Do you really believe the govt figures though? Only 3000 cases and 56 deaths bearing in mind it was the first foreign country outside China to report a death.

I don't believe any government figures.

However, I do believe the figures here are quite low as to date I have yet to meet or know of anyone who has personal knowledge of an individual infected with this virus.

Rightly or wrongly, the authorities here reacted vigorously and quickly with curfews (still in place), provincial lockdowns, domestic and international flight bans (Intl still in place), beaches and all entertainment shutdown (still enforced), tracing apps now for shopping centres etc..

The flip side to all this is suicides are through the roof, businesses are collapsing everywhere with many, probably the majority having no hope of being resurrected. There are many many homeless, desperate and hungry people on the streets now.

As I have stated before, the medicine is worse than the illness.

[LTNman]

The UK was first infected by air travel. Track and trace, which was in force at the time, didn’t work and only delayed the inevitable and that was despite so few cases.

We now have the prospect of European holiday hot spots opening up where holidaymakers will soon forget social distancing particularly at night so will bring new infections back to the UK for a second wave.

[GS-Alpha]

The UK was first infected by air travel. Track and trace, which was in force at the time, didn’t work and only delayed the inevitable and that was despite so few cases.

We now have the prospect of European holiday hot spots opening up where holidaymakers will soon forget social distancing particularly at night so will bring new infections back to the UK for a second wave.

There is a big difference helping track and trace this time though. Back then, there was no social distancing of any description, so the R0 was approximately 3. The idea now, is to keep the R0 below 1, and part of that is the 14 day ‘quarantine’. After such a lengthy period of strict lockdown, and a dramatic reduction in daily deaths which makes the public feel its all over, I think the government has a cat’s chance in hell of actually keeping the R0 below 1 for and significant duration.

Before March, the initial response to the pandemic was minimal outside of China. The politicians of the world failed to make serious attempts to prepare for what was pretty much inevitable. The reaction since has been purely political. With no other available tool to prevent deaths spiralling out of control, as soon as community spread reached a certain level, failure to impose strict lockdowns whilst others did so, would have been political suicide.

As we ease out of lockdown; giving the impression they have a plan in place which will work, as long as the public comply, the politicians are giving themselves a get out clause. When the second wave comes, it will be due to the poor compliance of the public. Without the quarantine, the media (and therefore the public) would blame air travel for the second wave, which would come back to blaming the political decisions. It is all just politics.

[nicolai]

I see news reports today that the quarantine will be reviewed every 3 weeks. Previously there was no indication of a review schedule. With a government that acts in a largely uncaring fashion towards international travel and relations, this led (me at least) to fear that the quarantine might be started and continue indefinitely as there could always be some small risk of removing it and no concern about its side-effects.
A regular review schedule at least gives some hope it may be removed as soon as possible, not as kept as long as it can be kept.

[T250]

They say a week is a long time in politics and also, in epidemics.

3 week review is far too long considering other countries are further ahead than us. A weekly review would be far more appropriate.

[mercurydancer]

For me, the quarantine is welcome. My wife went home to Russia to visit relatives just before they closed everything down. She is stranded there. She is safe, but obviously wants to get home and I want her home too. 14 days quarantine with a verifiable UK address is what I have. It may just be the mechanism by which I will get her home.

For all measures about prevention, of course we can pontificate but essentially none knew how this was going to pan out. I do think that the 14 day quarantine would make sense if they instituted it the day they made the Stay at Home instruction.

[peter we]

Looks like quarantine-free travel is becoming possible in certain regions of Europe. First were the Baltic states - Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia. Today Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia followed suit to lift the quarantine from 1 June. Quite possibly many more to follow suit soon.

Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia will have a open travel between those states - not from outside the safe zone.

[PilotLZ]

From today's news it looks like the UK quarantine for arrivals will become fact on June 8th. I wonder why so early, they might have as well made it September. A 17-day notice for something like that looks strange at the least, given that other countries enforced the same measures literally overnight (and when the outbreak was still in its beginning, not after it has already peaked).

[hunterboy]

There seems to be some debate as to whether airline crew will be exempt from the quarantine. Does anyone have any official references?

[Cat Techie]

From today's news it looks like the UK quarantine for arrivals will become fact on June 8th. I wonder why so early, they might have as well made it September. A 17-day notice for something like that looks strange at the least, given that other countries enforced the same measures literally overnight (and when the outbreak was still in its beginning, not after it has already peaked).

I would be banned if I made my opinions known. You are correct. Horse has bolted.

[Moonwalker]

From today's news it looks like the UK quarantine for arrivals will become fact on June 8th. I wonder why so early, they might have as well made it September. A 17-day notice for something like that looks strange at the least, given that other countries enforced the same measures literally overnight (and when the outbreak was still in its beginning, not after it has already peaked).

What does this mean for us as an operating crew? Let's say you work BA long haul, freight or business jet pilot, and come back to UK after a round-trip. Do you have to self isolate yourself for 14 days before you can work again? How are all freighters going to run in and out of UK if every crew has to self isolate between their duties? So far I've only seen exception for lorry drivers. Does anyone know?

[PilotLZ]

As per the existing guidelines, it is possible to fly short-haul with a turnaround and return within one duty period and be exempted from quarantine as long as you don't have a confirmed positive case on board that you have been in contact with for more than 15 minutes. There are also provisions in place for taking rest without entering a foreign country and hence being exempt from quarantine both outbound and inbound. Those normally involve either spending the rest period on the aircraft or being chauffeured to an isolated hotel room and not allowed to leave it until the return flight.

...it's another matter whether any of these guidelines will be needed in the UK soon, maybe except for cargo...

[GKOC41]

As per the existing guidelines, it is possible to fly short-haul with a turnaround and return within one duty period and be exempted from quarantine as long as you don't have a confirmed positive case on board that you have been in contact with for more than 15 minutes. There are also provisions in place for taking rest without entering a foreign country and hence being exempt from quarantine both outbound and inbound. Those normally involve either spending the rest period on the aircraft or being chauffeured to an isolated hotel room and not allowed to leave it until the return flight.

...it's another matter whether any of these guidelines will be needed in the UK soon, maybe except for cargo...

From experience;

Stay on aircraft during turnaround - stay in aircraft foot print - no issues.
Get off the aircraft down route - trouble n strife you may have to oblige with that countries regs also
Airlines will need to negotiate with UK Gov for rules and dispensations e.g. stay in Airport Hotel

[Moonwalker]

From experience;

Stay on aircraft during turnaround - stay in aircraft foot print - no issues.
Get off the aircraft down route - trouble n strife you may have to oblige with that countries regs also
Airlines will need to negotiate with UK Gov for rules and dispensations e.g. stay in Airport Hotel

Most hotels are closed in UK though.

[Robin757]

I cannot imagine many people will be booking many of Ryanair’s summer flights now. Jet2 want to start up again soon too. I feel sorry for the staff if this means more redundancies now.
I am due to fly to Zurich from Manchester in August. I would be surprised if Swiss ever fly to Manchester again.

[PilotLZ]

The present-day reality is a terrible place to be in for British airline personnel. A big round of retrenchment now seems almost unavoidable at the likes of Jet2 and TUI. Not only will further flights be cancelled (at least until 1 July, when hopefully the 3-week measure review will put an end to this insanity), but people's confidence in airlines and travel agencies will be undermined even further. As if Thomas Cook, FlyBe and the lockdown haven't been enough in this way. But that's what happens when policy making is based entirely on "keeping your face" in the face of restrictive measures for UK travellers from other European countries. And I see this absurd decision as nothing else than a reciprocal reply to said countries with a better epidemiological situation.

[wiggy]

Most hotels are closed in UK though.

They are but some of the hotels around the major airports are open to provide accommodation for essential workers so they could be used in the circumstances GKOC41 describes.

TBH I have a sneaking suspicion that the 14 day quarantine for UK arrivals won't actually happen - it's been announced today, but in two weeks time will we suddenly find "the science" no longer supports it?

[carmel]

Quarantine plans for UK arrivals unveiled
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-52774854


People arriving in the UK must self-isolate for 14 days from 8 June to help slow the spread of coronavirus, the government has said.

Travellers will need to tell the government where they will quarantine, with enforcement through random spot checks and £1,000 fines in England.



Passengers arriving in the UK will be required to fill out an online locator contact form - providing details of where they will spend their 14 days in self-isolation.The Home Office said the proposed accommodation will need to meet necessary requirements, such as a hotel or a private address with friends or family.

There will be a fine of £100 for failure to complete the form, and the Border Force will have the power to refuse entry to non-UK citizens who do not comply with the new regulations.

[Phantom Driver]

Michael O'Leary is right when he says the whole idea is " bonkers " . Suspect he's also right when he sees another U turn ahead on this .

[Del Prado]

I see this absurd decision as nothing else than a reciprocal reply to said countries with a better epidemiological situation.

I wasn’t aware of any european countries imposing quarantine on arrivals from U.K. - except Ireland and they aren’t included in U.K. quarantine measures.
Which other european countries are imposing 14 day quarantine on U.K. arrivals?

[Del Prado]

There seems to be some debate as to whether airline crew will be exempt from the quarantine. Does anyone have any official references?

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-travellers-exempt-from-uk-border-rules/coronavirus-covid-19-travellers-exempt-from-uk-border-rules

edited for direct link to list.

[Alloy]

According the the above linked notes:
“Exemptions from self-isolation requirements:

crew, as defined in paragraph 1 of Schedule 1 to the Air Navigation Order 2016(h), where such crew have travelled to the UK in the course of their work.”

[PAXboy]

GS-Alpha is correct:

Govt does not want to pay airlines for poltical reasons
Govt imposes quarantine to 'make country safe'
Airlines can choose to operate - they are not being restricted by govt
If airlines choose not to operate - that is their choice
If you break the quarantine you get fined
If more cases develop, govt says "It must be your fault"
Govt win both ways as airlines can operate and you can travel.

When we arrived in JNB on Feb 8th, we had forehead temperature test. Subsequently, we discover that Covid-19 can spread via asymptomatic carrier - so this was not much of an effective check. BUT it told me that the South African govt knew there was a problem. When we returned 19th Feb and, as of today, no temperature testing in UK intl airports. If you think the Guardian always attack the govt, my letter to them pointing out that the UK was at least three months behind the South Africans in recognising the airport problem, was not printed!

However, there was a letter from a person who arrived at LHR in March (I think it was) All pax given a contact form on the flight, asking for loads of detail and contact information. On arrival - no one to collect the form. She asked at Passport at Customs and of airport staff - no one knew of the form or what to do with it and no one collected it. She left the airport.

At long last the fallacy of the British being good in a crisis etcetera has met its Waterloo.

[hunterboy]

crew, as defined in paragraph 1 of Schedule 1 to the Air Navigation Order 2016(h), where such crew have travelled to the UK in the course of their work


by my interpretation, that rules out crew commuting to work?

[PilotLZ]

I wasn’t aware of any european countries imposing quarantine on arrivals from U.K. - except Ireland and they aren’t included in U.K. quarantine measures.
Which other european countries are imposing 14 day quarantine on U.K. arrivals?
The majority require everyone entering from abroad to quarantine for 14 days, even if it's their own national. Exemptions are now gradually being granted to travellers from countries with a good COVID-19 profile.

[Dannyboy39]

"civil aviation inspectors engaged on inspection duties"

That wording is a bit woolly - I'd interpret that as SAFA inspectors, NAA inspectors, airline engineering inspectors and aircraft owner inspectors.

"crew, as defined in paragraph 1 of Schedule 1 to the Air Navigation Order 2016(h), where such crew have travelled to the UK in the course of their work... a person who resides in the UK and who pursues an activity as an employed or self-employed person in another country to which they usually go at least once a week"

I'd interpret that as including commuting pilots as they have travelled to the UK to work or commuting to a non-UK base.

All down to interpretation as always, but feel free to correct me.

[Baron57]

Even general public who don’t fall into a “crew” category can still use the final listed exemption- provided they “usually” go overseas to persue “an activity” once per week! This regulation is a complete nonsense (thankfully) just paying lip service to the media.

From gov.uk list of exemptions....

“a person who resides in the UK and who pursues an activity as an employed or self-employed person in another country to which they usually go at least once a week”

[peter we]

I wasn’t aware of any european countries imposing quarantine on arrivals from U.K. - except Ireland and they aren’t included in U.K. quarantine measures.
Which other european countries are imposing 14 day quarantine on U.K. arrivals?
Most of the EU, except France and Germany, USA. Probably most of the rest of the world. Don't know how many countries still have outright bans on UK citizens.

[ClassCbird]

I am posting my concerns about the ridiculous rules that require pilots to self isolate for 14 days after each and every duty regardless of a negative Covid test result.
I have friends at EK as an example, who are in permanent self isolation and have been for 2 months now with no sign of this abating. (They are flying a duty every 14 days so cannot leave the house at all or interact with their own wives and children while at home...those are the rules stipulated by the local health authority.) This is leading to depression, aggression, binge drinking....you know all the things that solitary confinement would cause? I cannot believe in this day and age with more knowledge on mental health issues, that this practice is happening. Has the aviation industry forgotten so quickly LAM Mozambique airlines flight 470? Or Germanwings 9525?
Please, please,please put pressure on your health authorities in whatever country are implementing these non sensical 'rules' before we face another cockpit suicide due to an unsustainable and hellish existence away from work.

[peter we]

Exemptions are now gradually being granted to travellers from countries with a good COVID-19 profile.

Which probably explains the UK's quarantine. UK cannot get exemptions to other countries if it allows infected travelers into the UK.

Eradicating COVID is the route taken by the rest of the world and we will have to follow to be allowed back in. No more herd immunity strategy, Dom.

[GS-Alpha]

by my interpretation, that rules out crew commuting to work?
‘In the course of their work’ does indeed mean during the time in which they are working, so presumably does not allow for personal travel to and from work.

[wiggy]

Reference the question about "Which other european countries are imposing 14 day quarantine on U.K. arrivals?" and

Most of the EU, except France and Germany, USA. .

Whilst it's absolutely correct that France doesn't have formal quarantine for arrivals from the UK that is almost irrelevant because the French still have some pretty serious restrictions on who can enter from anywhere in the world - that has been the case for several weeks.

For example ATM a Brit not resident in France can't just rock up at the Border and say they are arriving to visit friends or are on a holiday - they'll be denied entry, so quarantine not required...:ooh:

FYI currently to enter France an individual has to be able to demonstrate (either prior to boarding a flight, and/or on arrival at the Border) a valid reason for entry into the country, such as being an essential worker, frontier worker, etc..FWIW that does include crew on personal travel going to/from work - uniform not required but you'll almost certainly be required to produce ID and other supporting paperwork..

Full list is in this link:

https://www.ufe.org/actualites/covid-19-retour-en-france-attestation-de-deplacement-international

Brings us back to the point that some countries have been taking this seriously for quite some time.

[kendrick47247]

"crew, as defined in paragraph 1 of Schedule 1 to the Air Navigation Order 2016(h), where such crew have travelled to the UK in the course of their work... a person who resides in the UK and who pursues an activity as an employed or self-employed person in another country to which they usually go at least once a week"

I'd interpret that as including commuting pilots as they have travelled to the UK to work or commuting to a non-UK base.


I don’t think that includes commuters at all. As a poster above mentioned In the course of their work would be on duty, so unless you’ve operated or are officially positioning for duty then I’d say you’re out of luck.

[Del Prado]

So those of you that are flight crew and commute from France, Italy, etc, what are you going to do now?

[jimmievegas]

This is leading to depression, aggression, binge drinking....Sounds like a standard pilot, tbh.

[wiggy]

So those of you that are flight crew and commute from France, Italy, etc, what are you going to do now?

As has been pointed out by myself and others most countries with entry restrictions have generally had an exemption in the rules or have left wriggle room in the wording for those involved in essential work, whether travelling on duty or "travelling to perform their duties" - so personally I'm expecting some pragmatism to kick in over the next two weeks.

Oh hang ...we're talking about HMG and the Home office....

See any wriggle room here....??? (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-travellers-exempt-from-uk-border-rules/coronavirus-covid-19-travellers-exempt-from-uk-border-rules)

[Banana Joe]

Where is this? As an active pilot that has been relatively busy in this unfortunate period, I've never had to self isolate for 14 days after each duty.

​​​​​

​

[Del Prado]

Not for me, and I’ve been studying it most of the night!

Ps. PM’d you.

[Car RAMROD]

Where is this? As an active pilot that has been relatively busy in this unfortunate period, I've never had to self isolate for 14 days after each duty.

​
​


Australia, for one.

from the Deparment of Health COVID factsheet-
Airline crew who have been on international flights must self-isolate in their crew accommodation or home for 14 days after arrival, or until their next flight, whichever is shorter.


the above requirement means that you could be in permanent isolation. Home-work-home-work only, unless you get 14 days at home without going overseas, then you can go outside the home and do something.
”self isolation” in this case in Aus means stay at home. You can only leave the house to go to work, a medical appointment or to escape harm (ie fire, flood, violence).

crazily, I could do a flight to NZ (which is mostly Covid free) and back to home base, in one duty, not set foot outside the plane other than a walk-around, yet I’d have to isolate in Aus when I return.
make sense? No. That’s government!

[Banana Joe]

In Germany and Italy cross-borders workers are exempt. In Italy it took a few decrees to get to this. Looks like we have taken a more "common-sense" approach to this.
For layovers downroute, we have been either hotel confined or room confined.

[Whitemonk Returns]

In Europe if you don't leave the aircraft you do not have to self isolate, for now.

[hunterboy]

I suppose a month off at home in June/July could be worse? I'm not going to stress about it tbh. I gather that there wont be much flying going on anyway.

[Turnleft080]

I also just read somewhere the authorities are closing beaches around Europe. Australia did the same thing. Idiots.
Why UV-A and UV-B provide you with Vit D the real supplement that kills Covid-19. That's why we have a sun. Without it
we would all die. So the (authorities beach cops government departments) want to lock you up in your own home and suppress
your immune system and make you more depressed.

[serf]

Big list of exemptions for the UK, flight crew being one of them.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-travellers-exempt-from-uk-border-rules/coronavirus-covid-19-travellers-exempt-from-uk-border-rules

[PilotLZ]

I suppose a month off at home in June/July could be worse? I'm not going to stress about it tbh. I gather that there wont be much flying going on anyway.
A lot of free time in the summer has traditionally been a huge and almost unattainable luxury for almost everyone in civil aviation. Maybe except for management pilots and those on the very top of the seniority list for their fleets. However, the catch is that it stops being enjoyable the moment one gets thrown out of their flying job and faced with the perspective of stacking shelves or driving a delivery van. Sorry about being negative, but that's exactly where one in every three pilots is heading soon if this utter madness carries on. If there's no flying in the summer, many of the companies relying on the summer months to make up for the weak season in the winter simply won't survive.

[Nightstop]

Not if you’re an Airline Pilot Commuter arriving in the UK to fly next day, 14 days quarantine required.

[Banana Joe]

Not if you’re an Airline Pilot Commuter arriving in the UK to fly next day, 14 days quarantine required.
We've discussed this recently in the Italian forum, with the OP being employed by an Irish operator with a base at a UK airport. He is not required to be in quarantine either in Italy or the UK.

[Nightstop]

Thanks BJ, it seems the Gov.UK website is not as detailed as it should be...no surprise there.

[READY MESSAGE]

I regularly finish a trip by positioning by airline back to the UK, guess that means 14 days quarantine for me.

I see France has now retaliated imposing 14 day quarantine on anyone arriving from the UK

[GKOC41]

Where is this? As an active pilot that has been relatively busy in this unfortunate period, I've never had to self isolate for 14 days after each duty.​​

​
Middle East Banana Joe. Some crews are working say 7 day trip staying in hotel room due local CV19 restrictions. Then on return they are swabbed, then isolate for another 14 days then re-swab.
Am I joking - No

[norfolkungood]

Australia, for one.

from the Deparment of Health COVID factsheet-


the above requirement means that you could be in permanent isolation. Home-work-home-work only, unless you get 14 days at home without going overseas, then you can go outside the home and do something.
”self isolation” in this case in Aus means stay at home. You can only leave the house to go to work, a medical appointment or to escape harm (ie fire, flood, violence).

crazily, I could do a flight to NZ (which is mostly Covid free) and back to home base, in one duty, not set foot outside the plane other than a walk-around, yet I’d have to isolate in Aus when I return.
make sense? No. That’s government!

Effectively this is what we are doing here in Hong Kong. During layover at any port we are mandated to stay in our room, only room service or the like for food. On return we are in Medical Surveillance for 14 days. Report twice daily temperature check to Company and remain at home as much as possible, avoiding social contact with others, allowed out for exercise once a day. All Doctors and Dentists here refuse to see anyone with travel history in the last 14 days, so makes it tricky if you are sick....Been doing this for the 6 weeks or so.....

[kendrick47247]

We've discussed this recently in the Italian forum, with the OP being employed by an Irish operator with a base at a UK airport. He is not required to be in quarantine either in Italy or the UK.

How have you come to this conclusions? Seems contrary to any of the guidelines

[PilotLZ]

Lockdown and total restriction of movement for months on an end is a blunt tool that belongs to the Middle Ages, not in 2020. The amount of destruction it caused and keeps causing is yet to be evaluated. One thing is for sure - this is not the way forward. Hence, PPE and social distancing regulations used in some sensible way should not upset anyone. The alternative to this is "a new normal" of poverty, violence, despair and significantly curtailed opportunity in every walk of life - with all due consequences for people's health, quality of life and life expectancy.

[ozbiggles]

Turn left
I think all that tinfoil you are wearing will be your main problem getting enough vitamin D.

[ShotOne]

“I suppose a month off in June/July could be worse..” Unfortunately for a lot of pilots this means being off for the rest of their careers. And utter destitution for those relying on tourism In many overseas destinations.

[MaximumPete]

[QUOTE=Douglas Bahada;10776836]Deaths still keep on occurring. Hospitals still mainly empty, Non Covids dropping like flies for lack of treatment. Apparently the UK is one of the only countries not screening new arrivals. Yet we are on a downward trend.

​​​
Quote from Douglas Bahada:-
18% of the UK population are over the age of 65. They are at most risk and account for 80% of deaths. So we shut down our society. Furlough our taxpayers and bankrupt our future to provide protection to people who are in no position to contribute financially to society.

The lunatics are running the asylum.
End of quote

I feel your comments are not applicable to many members of this forum. I'm a retired 73 year old pilot with thirty five years in the industry. I have a company pension and paid over £17,000 in direct tax last year. In addition there's a considerable amount of indirect taxation. I am not alone by any means.

MP

[Maninthebar]

[QUOTE=Douglas Bahada;10776836]Deaths still keep on occurring. Hospitals still mainly empty, Non Covids dropping like flies for lack of treatment. Apparently the UK is one of the only countries not screening new arrivals. Yet we are on a downward trend.

​​​
Quote from Douglas Bahada:-
18% of the UK population are over the age of 65. They are at most risk and account for 80% of deaths. So we shut down our society. Furlough our taxpayers and bankrupt our future to provide protection to people who are in no position to contribute financially to society.

The lunatics are running the asylum.
End of quote

I feel your comments are not applicable to many members of this forum. I'm a retired 73 year old pilot with thirty five years in the industry. I have a company pension and paid over £17,000 in direct tax last year. In addition there's a considerable amount of indirect taxation. I am not alone by any means.

MP


And you could also say:

Those who we are seeking to protect are all those who have already spent 4 or more decades of their lives building the world in which we live, paying taxes, raising families, in fact raising us. To describe this as the young sacrificing for the old is a descent into barbarism

[blind pew]

What relevance does 17 grand direct tax have to the discussion besides being lucky enough to have an obscene pension no doubt inflation proofed?

[ShotOne]

What on earth has quarantine to do with over or under 65 argument? There is a good case that it should have been done in February or early March. But trashing the airline and tourism industries now makes no sense. And closing off the U.K. to all wishing to do business with us from overseas. The decision is supposedly guided by science. But elsewhere countries are opening up. Is science different abroad?

[Flying Hi]

What on earth has quarantine to do with over or under 65 argument? There is a good case that it should have been done in February or early March. But trashing the airline and tourism industries now makes no sense. And closing off the U.K. to all wishing to do business with us from overseas. The decision is supposedly guided by science. But elsewhere countries are opening up. Is science different abroad?
No - the death rate is lower abroad. Get it under control - THEN do business.

[Plastic787]

No - the death rate is lower abroad. Get it under control - THEN do business.
Have countries abroad been putting Covid-19 on their death certificates when it was clear there were comorbidities involved and Covid-19 couldn’t have been the causal factor in deaths? Hell in the U.K. they’ve even been allowing nurses to diagnose the cause of death and subsequently to fill in death certificates FFS! The statistics in the U.K. are absolutely meaningless and corrupted beyond belief because of this.

[Cat Techie]

Have countries abroad been putting Covid-19 on their death certificates when it was clear there were comorbidities involved and Covid-19 couldn’t have been the causal factor in deaths? Hell in the U.K. they’ve even been allowing nurses to diagnose the cause of death and subsequently to fill in death certificates FFS! The statistics in the U.K. are absolutely meaningless and corrupted beyond belief because of this.

Nurse Practitioners you mean. Highly qualified. A lot more so that your meaningless comment. Lockdown here has been an absolute joke, thats why our infection rates are still way higher than it should be. Why is that?

[PilotLZ]

At this stage, damage is greatly increased by the fact that there are no criteria as to when the quarantine may be lifted. When domestic cases reach X per 100,000 population? When cases in the country of departure reach X per 100,000 population? When the WHO declares the end of the pandemic? When the cows come home? This uncertainty is smashing up whatever's left of all travel businesses as travellers are stripped off the ability to plan anything at all. As it stands now, travel without quarantine may become possible as early as July or as late as Q4 of 2020. Or maybe even 2021, although chances of that are few. Who in their right mind will book a flight with this degree of uncertainty, especially considering that refunds from all previous rounds of cancellations haven't been processed yet?