IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs

[Just a spotter]

Reuters (28th April 2020) is reporting that IAG is in talks with BA unions about widespread redundancies.* RECOVERY TO LEVEL OF PASSENGER DEMAND IN 2019 IS EXPECTED TO TAKE SEVERAL YEARS, NECESSITATING GROUP-WIDE RESTRUCTURING MEASURES* IAG IS NOT CURRENTLY PROVIDING PROFIT GUIDANCE FOR 2020* GROUP EXPECTS ITS OPERATING LOSS IN Q2 TO BE SIGNIFICANTLY WORSE THAN IN Q1

* LIKELY THAT RESTRUCTURING AND REDUNDANCY PROGRAMME WILL AFFECT MOST OF BRITISH AIRWAYS’ EMPLOYEES AND MAY RESULT IN REDUNDANCY OF UP TO 12,000

https://www.reuters.com/article/brief-iag-says-restructuring-may-result/brief-iag-says-restructuring-may-result-in-12000-job-cuts-in-british-airways-idUSFWN2CG13O

Best of luck to all.

[TURIN]

Not entirely unexpected. We shall see what sort of (if any) kind of package is offered.
Good luck everyone.

[whatdoesthisbuttondo]

From the pilots point of view, it’s pretty expensive to make pilots redundant, BA has what 45,000 employees?

[Auxtank]

...and 4,500 of those are pilots.

https://mediacentre.britishairways.com/factsheets/details/86/Factsheets-3/33

Good Luck to all those affected by this.

[peacheyglobes]

From the pilots point of view, it’s pretty expensive to make pilots redundant, BA has what 45,000 employees?

It could be, although if BA paid the statutory minimum redundancy pay (and I accept that is a big 'IF') then it would actually be quite inexpensive compared to pilot's salary. From gov.uk website:

"Employees get:

1.5 weeks’ pay for each full year of employment after their 41st birthday
a week’s pay for each full year of employment after their 22nd birthday
half a week’s pay for each full year of employment up to their 22nd birthday
Length of service is capped at 20 years and weekly pay is capped at £538. The maximum amount of statutory redundancy pay is £16,140."

[Good Business Sense]

There's just over 4500 of us. Possibly 800 redundancies indicated earlier. If the financial crisis is anything to go by VR will be offered first. In the 2008 case we had more volunteering than needed. After that, this time, who knows.

Of course, the BA guys and girls joining those from Flybe and Thomas Cook ..... unprecedented

[Ron Swanson]

From the pilots point of view, it’s pretty expensive to make pilots redundant, BA has what 45,000 employees?
statutory redundancy pay is now capped at £16,140

https://www.gov.uk/redundancy-your-rights/redundancy-pay

[cashash]

Bad news but not unexpected.

I do fear that many of my friends around the globe are going to end up unemployed by the end of this year.

[Auxtank]

There's just over 4500 of us. Possibly 800 redundancies indicated earlier. If the financial crisis is anything to go by VR will be offered first. In the 2008 case we had more volunteering than needed. After that, this time, who knows.

Panel3 - Sorry I got my numbers wrong - I was basing it on BA Factsheet - so they appear to not know either - or just don't bother updating info very often. Have edited my post. Yes, very different circumstances to the banking crisis in which we find ourselves. Best wishes to you and all. What a bugger this all is.

[stormin norman]

'Restructuring' means contracts and Ts and Cs out of the window, as well as Redundencies/Severance.

My thoughts are with all affected.

[C195]

Of course, the BA guys and girls joining those from Flybe and Thomas Cook ..... unprecedented

How many (approximately) pilots did Flybe and Thomas Cook employ?

[helicrazi]

It could be, although if BA paid the statutory minimum redundancy pay (and I accept that is a big 'IF') then it would actually be quite inexpensive compared to pilot's salary. From gov.uk website:

"Employees get:

1.5 weeks’ pay for each full year of employment after their 41st birthday
a week’s pay for each full year of employment after their 22nd birthday
half a week’s pay for each full year of employment up to their 22nd birthday
Length of service is capped at 20 years and weekly pay is capped at £538. The maximum amount of statutory redundancy pay is £16,140."

Statutory yes, but they can offer any package they want...

My company offered it with an uncapped weekly pay for instance. Unions will negotiate .

[macdo]

How many (approximately) pilots did Flybe and Thomas Cook employ?

tcx uk had about 630. About half those had new positions by January. Disregarding furlough, quite a few have been let go again.
my sympathy and empathy to all BA staff.

[Meester proach]

So the nightmare rolls on.

Good luck to the Nigels and Nigellas

[peacheyglobes]

Statutory yes, but they can offer any package they want...

My company offered it with an uncapped weekly pay for instance. Unions will negotiate .

Yes as I said in my post it is unlikely BA would pay the statutory minimum. As for the unions negotiating I can't see how they will have much power now.

[GKOC41]

What about Lingus and Iberia.
And the Italian Government bails out Alitalia and Air France get a big wad of Government cash.
Just goes to show where employee's are on BA's ladder.

[Waterworld]

What about Lingus and Iberia.
And the Italian Government bails out Alitalia and Air France get a big wad of Government cash.
Just goes to show where employee's are on BA's ladder.
You mean the Goverments ladder?

[Interested.Spectator]

What about Lingus and Iberia.
And the Italian Government bails out Alitalia and Air France get a big wad of Government cash.
Just goes to show where employee's are on BA's ladder.

BA ain't the government, which is kind of the point I think ?

[hunterboy]

Who would have thought a company making 2 billion profit would turn around and axe 1/4 of its workforce when the going gets rough? Apart from the staff working for BA, of course, who know what a ruthless, heartless bunch they are.

[helicrazi]

Surely it doesn't matter how much cash is pumped in, demand for travel will be alot less so a reduction in work force is inevitable in any company. Cash just keeps the lights on for longer at the moment.

[STN Ramp Rat]

Who would have thought a company making 2 billion profit would turn around and axe 1/4 of its workforce when the going gets rough? Apart from the staff working for BA, of course, who know what a ruthless, heartless bunch they are.

Who would have though there would have been a crisis of this magnitude, SAS announced they were laying off 50% of their workforce today, Norwegian announced they will not return to any flying outside of Norway for a year, if indeed they survive the vote next week. You can't blame BA for this.... they will not be the last. Tragic as this is , and it is, if they don't do it they will die.

[captain8]

Back in the banking crisis, companies were advised, in future, to save for a rainy day, or 10.
Looks like BA’s vast profits have gone to the fat cats at the top, share holders and institutions, and ordering 737 Max than no one wants to fly on. They have demonstrated how to become a behemoth of the industry, but as part of IAG, headquartered in Spain, I don’t want any of my british tax going their way.
No way BA.

[wiggy]

.....as part of IAG, headquartered in Spain, I don’t want any of my british tax going their way.
No way BA.

When you've got your breath back is there any chance you might edit that part of that post, just for the sake of accuracy?

[Nialler]

Good luck to you all. I'm lucky in that I can flip open my laptop and be virtually at my desk in an instant.

You guys have flown me safely many hundreds of times not just to my destination but, far more importantly, back home again.

You are needed. I desparately hope things can pick up again as quickly as possible.

[LHR86]

The restructure of the business is vital to safeguard for future operation profit in line with fleet restructure.

1. All redundancy programmes operate at first with voluntary so their may be significant uptake on these, some voluntary redundancies are appealing to the mature employees who would effectively benefit from this.

2. Roles then assessed and then planning to take place in order to redeploy staff where needed.

3. Moving onto compulsory if needed.

The government policy is for employers to adhere by as a *minimum*. British Airways does NOT offer a statutory redundancy policy, theirs is an enhanced package.
Those who will elect or be selected for VR or CR will receive those terms.

Additionally, contractors that work for the airline will be part of this number and outside of BA as a collective shareholder from IAG

its also worth noting the government JRS is until the end of June At present with the focus being to protect roles during COVID19. The airlines will be waiting for further direction from the government...Aviation has been significantly impacted (and as IAG state, this will continue) for the minimum duration of 2020.

[Fly747]

When you've got your breath back is there any chance you might edit that part of that post, just for the sake of accuracy?
What is inaccurate? IAG is a Spanish registered company.

[WhatTheDeuce]

BA plc still operates and pays tax in the UK

[FlipFlapFlop]

Not a BA pilot, but waiting for similar or worse (much) at my LCC. We will see what take up there is on VR but sort of agree with Ollie that it will not be enough this time. What would help, if BA had a mind to, is agreement to Priority Return lists in place of a hold pool. Two, one for command one for FO. A commitment to approach in seniority list order when things recover, which they will, and help on currency. The biggest fear for pilots is loss of career, not job, which many of us have done several times already.

[king surf]

Good luck to you all. I'm lucky in that I can flip open my laptop and be virtually at my desk in an instant.

You guys have flown me safely many hundreds of times not just to my destination but, far more importantly, back home again.

You are needed. I desparately hope things can pick up again as quickly as possible.
Thank you for your nice comments.

[LadyL2013]

The thing is, the longer this goes on, even the most profitable of airlines will fall. Unless the government are happy having almost all our airlines fail, then they are going to have to come up with something. Even if it's only done for the sake of the economy. Airlines lose money quite unlike other businesses and I think in this instance, need to be considered differently.

[wiggy]

Very true....I do think some here would be quite happy to see BA and even VS go, sacrificed on the Altar of Disaster capitalism, UK style... ...I'm not quite sure what their reaction will then be if the LHR slots/T5 gates end up being occupied by other IAG, Spanish Tax paying ;) operators, and T3 is full to overflowing with US tax payers Delta and AA .....

[CEJM]

FlipFlapFlop

Completely agree with you. Working for the same airline as yourself, losing my job doesn’t bother me as much as long as there is a system in place to return when thing pick up. Quite happily go and do something else for a few years.

I am sure that BALPA is all over this and will be looking at something similar for the BA pilots. Hopefully CR can be reduced by Part Time etc. This is not really the time to be unemployed.

[GS-Alpha]

Here’s my prediction.
Voluntary redundancies plus a large percentage permanent pay cut (probably 15-20%). Then a few more months down the line, “Things have got worse, we are reissuing minimum notice of compulsory redundancies”. (If the above pay cuts were temporary, they are now made permanent, plus a bit more thumbscrew turning). Repeat this process until BA have knocked terms and conditions down as far as they can get them, and then there will be compulsory redundancies. “They wouldn’t do that surely?” They just have! The negotiations a month or two ago were under the same premise of removing the threat of minimum compulsory redundancy notice. Why settle for just one turn of the thumbscrews when you can turn them multiple times?

[3Greens]

The statement from BA Is particularly aimed at U.K. GOV I Think. That’s not to detract from the very serious trading conditions, but willie is in effect giving them a kick up the backside to remind them that if they don’t give us a pathway out of this, The UK airline business will soon be decimated beyond recovery. A strange game of brinksmanship. Possibly some kind of message to not bail Virgin out too, but I was never much good at poker so I won’t comment on that further.

[GS-Alpha]

Hopefully CR can be reduced by Part Time etc.
That was already done with the last turn of the thumbscrews a month back.

[SASKATOON9999]

And what exactly will Balpa's bargaining position be? I don't see they have much ammunition to play with?
These are unprecedented times, the result of which will not be overcome for several years at best. With such a large scale projected loss of workforce, across all areas of the business, there is very little ability, or indeed need for any enhanced redundancy payments. We are reliant on a significant amount of goodwill - Much of the pointy end workforce was very unwilling to offer any flexibility a few months back!

[Riskybis]

The statement from BA Is particularly aimed at U.K. GOV I Think. That’s not to detract from the very serious trading conditions, but willie is in effect giving them a kick up the backside to remind them that if they don’t give us a pathway out of this, The UK airline business will soon be decimated beyond recovery. A strange game of brinksmanship. Possibly some kind of message to not bail Virgin out too, but I was never much good at poker so I won’t comment on that further.

is this the same BA that said they didn’t need government help ?

[777aviator]

Good opportunity for BA to get cruise pilots into the business for LH too? Saves a wedge on further reduced FO salaries and training costs? I think the legislation is in place but not yet activated?

[Vokes55]

Not a BA pilot, but waiting for similar or worse (much) at my LCC. We will see what take up there is on VR but sort of agree with Ollie that it will not be enough this time. What would help, if BA had a mind to, is agreement to Priority Return lists in place of a hold pool. Two, one for command one for FO. A commitment to approach in seniority list order when things recover, which they will, and help on currency. The biggest fear for pilots is loss of career, not job, which many of us have done several times already.

Completely agree, and I think this is the one thing unions should be focusing on when it comes to redundancy talks in all airlines. The market will pick up again, and will return to previous levels eventually. Employees both sides of the flight deck door should have re-assurance that they will be invited back in seniority order and, crucially, without an interview or assessment. This would massively soften the blow - there are plenty of other things to do in this life for 2-3 years, with the reassurance of knowing you still have the career that you've invested large sums of time and money into.

[MaximumPete]

I'm very sorry to hear about situation throughout the industry, not just BA. There may well be more employees facing redundancy with other airlines.

I was offered an early retirement package by bmi, having worked for them for over thirty years, in 2001. This was in the wake of 9/11 the over a quarter of the pilots were facing redundancy. I accepted the offer and have no regrets whatsoever. I suggest those considering going for this option seek professional advice, possibly from BALPA.

I was taken out to dinner on my retirement by several pilots who had faced redundancy who just wanted to say thank you, a very kind thought.

I've never for one moment over twenty years of retirement regretted my decision.

With my very best wishes to each and everyone of you.

[RoyHudd]

Not quite sure what your point is MP. Forced redundancy is not the same as voluntary retirement. I lost my job at bmi mainline in Jan 2002 aged 50, and had no income for 6 months until finding another job, albeit as an FO for the remainder of my career. I had only been at bmi for 7 months.

I know that very many former colleagues in their 30's, 40's, and 50's face the stark reality of losing their jobs permanently. Perhaps thousands. You were one of the few lucky ones in this unstable profession. And you came from another era. Few if any today will be offered VR, it will be the same forced redundancy that I had no choice but to accept. I am not criticising you, just asking what the relevance of your post is to today's pilots.

(Could't stand Bishop btw. Nasty piece of work)

[wiggy]

is this the same BA that said they didn’t need government help ?

A week or two is a long time in business/ "that was then and this is now"/the past is another country.

Two or three of weeks back I reckon many airline CEOs were simply seeing this in terms of their company vs the opposition and how do we come out of this on top...I reckon now more and more of them are simply concentrating on what they need to do to get their company through this at all.

I think he /"BA" are allowed to change his mind (not saying he or BA has).

[Ron Swanson]

RoyHudd

MP’s advice is relevant because BA dos have a large number of post 55 pilots who may be considering VR. The personal costs of early retirement are minimal compared to being unemployable for an unforeseeable period. The payroll savings per person would be 10x more than taking off the bottom.

[Hot 'n' High]

RH, I think MP used the wrong word in the second case - did he mean to say "I was taken out to dinner on my retirement by several pilots who had faced retirement redundancy who just wanted to say thank you, a very kind thought."? I did that when one Contract I was on started to wind up so I left what work there was to the young guys with families - I had the flex to work away from home, semi-retired, which I then did for several years. People gradually left over the next 18 months but, at least, it bought them more time to plan.

Mind you, the young bu66ers never took me out to dinner tho! :uhoh: Praps they were just glad to be shot of H 'n' H!

[RoyHudd]

I take your point, Ron Swanson. Although it really only applies to BA, and possibly a few at TUI. Final Salary pensions are nowhere there for the pre-55's.

[squidie]

I've been through a number of VR schemes and the basic factors will be the same for the majority of other industries as well, they are generally based on:

• Big payouts for longer serving members.
• People will take VR if they have a good fall back plan. Such as retirement and money in the bank or assets.
• People will also take the VR if they can also be employed in another like-for-like job.
• Generally people who are low skilled and less likely to find another role then won’t take VR.

At a business perspective; VR hurts the company more because it doesn't necessarily control who actually leaves the company. Whereas forced redundancy is better for the company because they can control the loss but affects moral. It’s a balancing act between morale and company survival.

[Gypsy]

So what are IAG doing at Iberia and Vuelling?

[dr dre]

At a business perspective; VR hurts the company more because it doesn't necessarily control who actually leaves the company. Whereas forced redundancy is better for the company because they can control the loss but affects moral. It’s a balancing act between morale and company survival.

Does BA have a “last on first off” contractual requirement for forced redundancy? In that case it may not be cheaper to make the most junior redundant, considering more senior employees may have to be retrained into their roles if there’s still a requirement for them.

[Ollie Onion]

Certainly in 2008 BA Management were at great pains to stress that LIFO was only ONE criteria it would use for forced redundancy.

[Tray Surfer]

I feel terribly sad at this news. I know the industry as a whole is suffering massively at the moment.

I took VR (cabin crew) in 2016 (and have not looked back) and still have many great friends at BA, both in the cabin and in the flight deck.

I really hope that those who want to stay, can and do, and those who are ready to leave, will be able to with dignity and enough to see them right.

That is indeed IF it comes to it for all of this to happen.

All the very best to all.

[captain8]

BA made 1.95 Billion Pounds last year.
They pay fat cats big money. They dominate the market and supress the emergence of competition, simply
by size and their monopoly out of the UK, and increasingly, through their owners IAG, EuropeIAG is incorporated as a Sociedad Anónima (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.A._(corporation)) in Spain, where the company board meetings are held, and is domiciled in Spain for tax purposes.[41] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Airlines_Group#cite_note-businessweek-41)[42] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Airlines_Group#cite_note-air&business-42)[43] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Airlines_Group#cite_note-yahoofinance-43)[44] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Airlines_Group#cite_note-elpais-44) IAG has a primary listing on the London Stock (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Stock_Exchange)Exchange.

No way BA should have a bailout, loan or otherwise from the UK tax payer. They have enjoyed their dominance of the marked and should be able to take it on the chin. No way BA.

[whatdoesthisbuttondo]

The statement from BA Is particularly aimed at U.K. GOV I Think. That’s not to detract from the very serious trading conditions, but willie is in effect giving them a kick up the backside to remind them that if they don’t give us a pathway out of this, The UK airline business will soon be decimated beyond recovery. A strange game of brinksmanship. Possibly some kind of message to not bail Virgin out too, but I was never much good at poker so I won’t comment on that further.

This is exactly what I thought too. The wording was very odd and deliberate about the U.K. taxpayer and not receiving government support.

When I first heard the statement, I thought it sounded like brinksmanship also but then dismissed this as it would be an odd thing to do.

Maybe it’s just my disbelief at the scale of the problem.

Airlines are talking about reduced size post covid though so it’s not entirely unexpected regardless of furlough schemes etc.

A lot can happen between now and the announcement and consultation process though so hopefully the landscape will be starting to look more positive by then.

[MaximumPete]

Ho 'n' High, Sorry about the typo, I did mean redundancy, now corrected.

RoyHudd, When I was fairly new to BMA, as it was then known, I faced redundancy in my mid twenties with a wife and young family. At the same it was suggested by some of the more senior captains that certain individuals who had retired from BOAC and BEA on fat pensions may do the decent thing and resign to save the youngsters' jobs. They refused and the planned redundancies took place, fortunately I just missed the cut. Life has a funny way of dealing with things as one gentleman was dead within a year from cancer and never had a life in retirement, a pastime I can highly recommend. Yes I was lucky to stay in the same airline for over three decades but it did have its ups and downs, but the grass isn't always greener in the next field. I can think you can see now why I'm suggesting, possible too subtly, that the more senior employees might consider the option of early retirement.
One thing both have in common in a loathing for our erstwhile leader and how he treated his employees in the company pension fund, and don't forget it was a condition of service that you joined the company pension fund, no ifs or buts.

[77]

Interesting analysis...

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-why-ba-announcement-will-send-a-chill-through-government-11980344

[squidie]

That’s been mentioned here before; where the airline should become kind of victorious over many other airlines after this crisis and assume their craters.

[nicolai]

It doesn't take long for an airline the size of BA to lose a billion pounds, or two billion pounds. BA will be bust next year without one of: significant government funding, significant cost cutting, or significant and rapid resumption of air travel. The government isn't going to lift a finger that's clear (and the short-sighted environmental monomaniacs who think air travel and transport is an optional luxury that must be destroyed will only encourage that), nor is the government (of many countries) going to allow a rapid resumption of air travel.

So BA has cut costs or go bust.

And had it all gone fine this year, would everyone have been liking BA if they sat on their money instead of giving it to shareholders - and shareholders includes your pension funds, your personal stock investments (UK ISAs, and so on), life insurance companies, and all that sort of thing. Hardly "fat cats", actually your bread and your butter?

It's easy to blame a company for making a profit and paying a dividend last year instead of sitting on the cash. I can tell you for sure that companies do get blamed for not paying dividends if they make a profit - then they're selfish fat cats not paying out to their well-deserving shareholders who need a return on their investment.

Don't be so fast to criticise BA when they acted as companies are demanded to act in normal economic times and now they have to handle a deadly (to the company) crisis on their own.

[xray one]

Wiggy wrote:

A week or two is a long time in business/ "that was then and this is now"/the past is another country.

Two or three of weeks back I reckon many airline CEOs were simply seeing this in terms of their company vs the opposition and how do we come out of this on top...I reckon now more and more of them are simply concentrating on what they need to do to get their company through this at all.

I think he /"BA" are allowed to change his mind (not saying he or BA has)

I have no wish to score points; the situation is dire for all of us at the moment. However Willy Walsh came out with his dick swinging with one objective to see off Norwegian and Virgin. The CEO of Virgin realised the gravity of the situation and was the first to ask for a loan. Hopefully sense will prevail and airlines will get a credit line like most major carriers from around the world. Yes when this is over, things will look very different but lets do there most to minimise the hurt for all concerned.

[77]

That’s been mentioned here before; where the airline should become kind of victorious over many other airlines after this crisis and assume their craters.

Not sure whether you approve or disapprove. One thing for sure air travel will be in the doldrums for some time. How soon will it bounce back?? How long is a piece of string? It may well be survival of the fittest and if it is then you can't crticise BA. The only "unknown" will be the control governments have over their "flag carrier"(if they bail them out) and whether that will put "independant" airlines at a disadvantage. Government approval route wise etc might become difficult if the competition is a flag carrier the government has a financial interest in.
Lets hope the public travel asap. Whether they will be able to afford after job losses etc. another question.

[TURIN]

Not too many weeks ago, BA told the world that they had huge financial reserves (9B Euros worth) and that companies that don't should not get a bail out from the government.

Currently a large number of BA staff are getting up to £2500/month of government money. BA are topping that up for some.
The furlough agreement entered into by many staff was on the proviso of no redundancies. BA can't have it both ways. This government subsidy was supposed to save jobs.

Len McClusky of Unite has come out swinging. We'll see how many punches strike the target.

Sackings unlawful and immoral (https://unitetheunion.org/news-events/news/2020/april/mccluskey-ba-mass-sackings-unlawful-and-immoral-and-imperils-the-whole-of-uk-aviation/)

[helicrazi]

Massively sorry for everyone affected by this

However, the furlough scheme was never on that proviso, that's cr@p, I hope the unions succee and thrash out a great deal for staff, but they need to stick to fact.

Any redundancies will be after the furlough scheme ends, BA are just getting their ducks in a row

[Timmy Tomkins]

GS-Alpha

I fear there may be some substance to this assessment. After 9/11 opportunism ruled big time in negotiations. No crisis is too big or small to be lost as an opportunity to cut costs.

[RexBanner]

We’ve had the company proposal through from Balpa, utterly opportunistic smash and grab raid on Ts and Cs which has very little (read nothing) to do with Covid-19 (in much the same fashion as easyJet).

Redundancies split evenly between Captains and FOs. Won’t spill the requested figure precisely suffice to say it’s in four figures.

[Riskybis]

around 1200

[judge11]

Cast your minds back to post 9/11 and then 2008 - BA claim the end of the aviation world is nigh, take pay cuts and decimate T&Cs to 'save the company' - you know what happened thereafter. The 'best' became just another airline on 900hrs per annum, the most coveted roster system trashed, pension scheme destroyed - all in the name of 'saving the company'. The problem for management is, they have pared you to the bone (with your full and naive support) that there's little left to cut.

[TheAirMission]

You can all read it here: https://gofile.io/?c=LZkPqV

[Jwscud]

It’s a complete land grab - using the crisis as an opportunity to tear up everything that made BA worth working for.

If they get their way, seniority is dead as is any kind of stable rostering system. The “efficiencies” I’m sure mean working long haul to EASA limits, and what on earth do absence management and grievance procedures have to do with redundancy.

At least when I worked for O’Leary he had the good grace to tell you his mission was to ^@%! you!

[RHS]

judge11

Why don’t you crawl back in the hole you came from? 1200 pilot colleagues are staring down the hole and you’re gloating about their naivety?

[RexBanner]

Jwscud

Don't forget Scope agreement thrown in the bin too.

[JPJP]

You can all read it here: https://gofile.io/?c=LZkPqV

The document above contains one of the most reprehensible, cynical, and amoral management strategies that I’ve ever had the misfortune to read. The list of glaringly mercenary attempts to rewrite agreements permanently is long.

One wonders how forcing a new policy on performance and absence management will save British Airways ? Even Frank Lorenzo would be raising an appreciative eyebrow at that detail.

Unfortunately that Sky News article above seems to be prescient. I’m sorry to see the pain that British Airways pilots and employees are facing. Hopefully BALPA is up to the task.

I wish you all the best, and a hearty C you next time to BA management.

[RexBanner]

And remember this document contains the signature of AB. Will the last person in the room who was still labouring under the illusion that he’s one of the “good guys” please turn out the lights?

[Buter]

Was logging on to say this very thing.

I'm not sure where we go from here. At this point, it seems unlikely that I'll ever see the pointy end of a jet again. Good luck to us all, in BA and across the industry.

[ShotOne]

Reads like a wish list of everything BA management has been itching to do for years. Never waste a good crisis!

[vlieger]

That letter is disgusting. I hope BALPA can offer a strategy, though the bargaining position, unfortunately, is weak.

[Baldeep Inminj]

The attitude of BA management is so reprehensible that I imagine virtually all of their pilots would love nothing more than to take VR and move to a better one which actually has a modicum of humanity.
Oh hang on, nobody is hiring.

This is a hard call. Do you live by your principles or put food on the table?

I have wife and 3 kids relying on me. If I worked for such a callous and cut-throat company I would rant and rave...then swallow my pride, crack on, and pay the bills.

I have many friends at BA (and also Virgin) and every single one is a top guy, great pilot and deserves so much more than management are prepared to give.

At least BA management have been openly exposed for what they are. I would love to see the unions gave a field-day with this letter, but I bet BA have already got their guns loaded and aimed.

[judge11]

Why don’t you crawl back in the hole you came from? 1200 pilot colleagues are staring down the hole and you’re gloating about their naivety?

Not at all - I've got several 'been there, been made redundant' T-shirts.

Their naivety was in swallowing hook, line and sinker, BA management's sob-stories over the past almost 2 decades, sob-stories that have been proven to be completely groundless and yet they were believed leading to the erosion of what, at the time, were some of the most envied T&C's in the industry. There's a massive crunch coming but if you don't learn from past mistakes..............you know the rest.

Oh,and don't be so rude.

[sidtheesexist]

Why don’t you crawl back in the hole you came from? 1200 pilot colleagues are staring down the hole and you’re gloating about their naivety?
You may not like the way his pov is expressed, but I agree with him/her. And before you start having a pop at me as well, I’m looking down the barrel too, as I’m a Nigel.....for the moment! We, as a working group( pilots) and Union (BA BALPA), have consistently ceded ground (in my 15 yrs or so in BA) to our increasingly aggressive management. By expressing this view, I’m not for one moment blaming previous CCs alone, for the position we find ourselves in. Collectively, we haven’t found the will or the way to fight back effectively enough and thus find ourselves in a pretty weak position, at a time when the mgmt are as usual, trying to hammer us down again. Since I joined BA, I believe BALPA have managed to avoid compulsory redundancies when the dips have come along. I sincerely hope, for all our sakes, that this record can be maintained. If I’m wrong factually, unreserved apologies. Good luck everyone, my BA colleagues in ALL depts, our friends in VAA, and everyone else who is affected.

[Out Of Trim]

So what are IAG doing at Iberia and Vuelling?

Indeed, IAG seemed to have singled out BA only thus far! Why?

Are Iberia, Iberia Express, Vueling, Level, Air Europa, Aer Lingus seemingly immune from similar action? :hmm:

[judge11]

And remember this document contains the signature of AB. Will the last person in the room who was still labouring under the illusion that he’s one of the “good guys” please turn out the lights?
I used to know a AB - Hawk QFI - not the same one?

[RHS]

I have apologised to judge privately. I was out of line, emotions are running a little high tonight as I’m sure they are for many of us.

stay safe all, and best of luck to everyone.

[LGW Vulture]

I cannot see Vueling escaping the same sword. Spain is financially on its knees and tourism won't come back soon. Iberia have already been pared to the bone in the recent past but even they won't survive the same sword in their current status.

I believe it only a matter of time for similar announcements from the Iberian Peninsula.

[LanceHudson]

I used to know a AB - Hawk QFI - not the same one?

That’s him.

[RoyHudd]

Belated apology to Maximum Pete. You were indeed too subtle for me and my dim brain.

From chatting to a pal today, it seems that certain pension-rich 60+-year olds are happily operating long haul flights for BA with no view to retiring now and helping out others. Very sad. Selfish people. There were some at bmi too, evidently not yourself.

[Built4Speed2]

Cast your minds back to post 9/11 and then 2008 - BA claim the end of the aviation world is nigh, take pay cuts and decimate T&Cs to 'save the company' - you know what happened thereafter. The 'best' became just another airline on 900hrs per annum, the most coveted roster system trashed, pension scheme destroyed - all in the name of 'saving the company'. The problem for management is, they have pared you to the bone (with your full and naive support) that there's little left to cut.

Judge is right. As a current Nigel and former BACC rep, we have made our beds. Squandering the bull run and historic profitability, we followed the Pied Piper with his pseudo economics and general BS and ratcheted down our own t&c’s. Where’s the special relationship now, where’s the reset? For that matter where’s the promise of no redundancies for a 50% pay cut until July? We have cut away all the fat, so any further cuts will be muscle. Muscle that has built this once great airline.

But what worries me most is the people that are representing us. I have seen nothing but naivety and a lack of understanding of what has gone on previously. BALPA HQ, under this GS is a joke too. The lack of talent at party HQ is apparent even from a distance, and BA will have seen that for themselves.

Especially last September when we showed, without doubt, that we are a toothless (as well as incompetent) tiger. This is IAGs prayers all being answered in one, the virus may be novel but their SOP isn’t!

I fear this will be BALPAs biggest cock up of all, it will make previous blunders look almost palatable. We are royalty screwed, people.

IAG will pair back terms so as to compete with airlines in the upturn. The same airlines that have taken billions in subsidies and loans. No wonder they won’t even be offering Mixed Fleet terms and conditions, we will be a whisker away from slave wages. The gig economy in an airline, I dare say we will be the equivalent of Deliveroo drivers when this is over.

[Superpilot]

Anyone who thinks their iteration of a BALPA CC was better than the current generation is stuck in a place between grandiosity and nostalgia. Please remind yourselves of the general trend in society, economics and taxation. All things go from good, to bad to downright ugly. And in aviation this trend is in the making for 30 years now. Fighting the established powers as pilots becomes harder over time and more leeway is lost due to the simple fact that we have to constantly realign with the rest of society. It's expected.

[Fly747]

Belated apology to Maximum Pete. You were indeed too subtle for me and my dim brain.

From chatting to a pal today, it seems that certain pension-rich 60+-year olds are happily operating long haul flights for BA with no view to retiring now and helping out others. Very sad. Selfish people. There were some at bmi too, evidently not yourself.
I'm sorry Huddy boy but I really have to reply to that; I'm an older pilot and not being selfish at all, certainly no more selfish than you sound.
I have a family to support, kids in uni, elderly parents and only a few years left to work before that is it for 20+ years of retirement. Many of you meanwhile have years of employment ahead of you and if the airlines don't bounce back you can do something else.
I still enjoy my job. I'm living this life for me and mine, not for you and yours. I owe you nothing. Good luck to all; I ain't going nowheres voluntarily. Nothing sad in it at all.

[Built4Speed2]

Anyone who thinks their iteration of a BALPA CC was better than the current generation is stuck in a place between grandiosity and nostalgia. Please remind yourselves of the general trend in society, economics and taxation. All things go from good, to bad to downright ugly. And in aviation this trend is in the making for 30 years now. Fighting the established powers as pilots becomes harder over time and more leeway is lost due to the simple fact that we have to constantly realign with the rest of society. It's expected.

I’m not being grandiose or nostalgic, the truth is the previous BACC (which I was involved with) also made big mistakes by not capitalising on the good times. That’s not just a consequence of the general economic picture, not when other companies and certainly airline executives are getting very handsomely rewarded. BA for example, data breaches, IT failures, brand sinking to depths never seen before and almost daily bad press and still the company makes £2bn in profit and the CEO gets 400%! Now as we exhale, the boa constrictor just squeezes more until there’s no life left!

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Many of you meanwhile have years of employment ahead of you and if the airlines don't bounce back you can do something else.

Christ almighty. Do you know how that sounds? The “many of you” can just come back with “you’ve got a massive pension and no mortgage so you can just retire and be fine”. How does that sound to you?

You’ve every right to keep working for as long as you feel you need to, but please don’t come out with such claptrap. And don’t pull someone up on their lack of empathy/understanding for your situation and then display a complete lack of understanding/empathy for everyone beneath you on the list with the hideous phrase you’ve used above.

[wiggy]

From chatting to a pal today, it seems that certain pension-rich 60+-year olds are happily operating long haul flights for BA with no view to retiring now and helping out others. Very sad. Selfish people. There were some at bmi too, evidently not yourself.

Steady on, 60+ year old here......A couple of points if I may:

1. BA haven't started swinging the axe yet . I fail to see how a 60+ year old failing to retire "now" and instead operating a flight today/this week, or even in the next few weeks is being "selfish"? It may be different in a month or two so perhaps we will end revisiting this if BA start asking for VR.

2. There's also the old Chairman Mao saying about walking a mile in a man (or woman's) shoes, as witnessed by Fly747's post.

[Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP]

I had always planned on jacking it in at 60. Life changed drastically a few years ago and it'll have to be 65 now. If I could go at 60 I would. But it won't be happening.

There is also the inconvenient gap of two years between compulsory retirement at 65 and getting my state pension at 67.

Back to the topic. Good luck to all at BA and their appointed reps tasked with sorting this out as fairly as possible.

[Jwscud]

The previous DFOs resignation for refusing to implement significantly smaller changes than this is looking rather better in the light of hindsight.

[Antichristpilot]

I was saying that the, given restrictions that are bound to last for the next 10 to 20 years Boeing and Airbus will have to sell brand new short haul aircraft for no more than $5m a piece and remuneration that would see captain earn £35k per year and first officers, £15k a year.

It's over.

Best wishes

[Tommy Gavin]

In a different airline across the channel pilots that want to continue after 60 have to go part-time due to agreement with the union. This could be a cost efficient solution as the most expensive pilots will work less and most of the juniors get to keep their jobs. Imo this should be accomplished voluntarily. Good luck to all involved!
​​

[EMB-145LR]

Incredible. The greatest health emergency in living memory and IAG go after sickness policy! Morally moribund.

[helicrazi]

In a different airline across the channel pilots that want to continue after 60 have to go part-time due to agreement with the union. This could be a cost efficient solution as the most expensive pilots will work less and most of the juniors get to keep their jobs. Imo this should be accomplished voluntarily. Good luck to all involved!
​​

Could you explain how this is cost efficient? Surely its double everything for the part time pilots? Lpc / opc training is doubled etc etc

[Number Cruncher]

Could you explain how this is cost efficient? Surely its double everything for the part time pilots? Lpc / opc training is doubled etc etc

I would imagine that cost would be offset by saving 75%/50% etc of somebody earning upwards of £160k, thus allowing a lowly FO/cadet to be retained.

[helicrazi]

I would imagine that cost would be offset by saving 75%/50% etc of somebody earning upwards of £160k, thus allowing a lowly FO/cadet to be retained.

Ah, gotcha, in my mind I had 2 senior captains working part time, back to back. Makes sense now.

[Kirks gusset]

BALPA will be spread thin on the ground, but initial "suggestions" are that BA will opt to pay the minimum statutory requirements according to the T+Cs i.e UK Mins plus statutory notice pay. Approx 25% of the pilots may be culled due to over volume and the restructuring and no option for internal job transfers. Interesting some pilots may be made redundant due to proposed "efficiency" improvements.. Now,,does that mean they are "inefficient now" or that they were never needed or that their colleagues will work so hard they will not be needed, or that the route changes and rotations will basically mean they are surplus? It appears to be a "consulted" assault on Terms and Conditions with performance goals implied. Of course one feels very sorry for the colleagues involved in this process, friends and families will be effected and BA is only trying to "survive" for the future. perhaps more Cargo ops on the cards as per Virgin. One wonders if part of the BA reaction is due to the IATA forecasts and generally the sector talking down the recovery. As it is predicted NAS will cease LH ops from UK there may be some slack there, but again the question "who wants to travel in these times" . Companies like BA burn funds at eye watering rates and even a public offering would only stick a plaster on the wound. Lets hope the selection process is fair, although any restructuring models based around capacity will ultimately effect fleet types and not service with the company.

[The Nutts Mutts]

Firstly, genuinely sorry to hear about what those of you at BA are going through. I'm not a pilot but I'm employed elsewhere in the industry.
My question is, what can BALPA do? I'd imagine IA wouldn't have any effect at the moment due to the lack of flights to disrupt and media attention being focused elsewhere. So is it just a case of negotiating and hoping to mitigate some of the worst-case options slightly? Or will they be able to find leverage through other means? Hopefully dragging out negotiations for as long as possible may allow for some economic recovery and weaken BA's case for making some of these highly opportunistic changes.

Either way wishing you all the best outcome possible under the circumstances.

[Busdriver01]

BA is only trying to "survive" for the future.

If they were only trying to survive for the future, it would be only too obvious that the measures they had suggested were temporary (by temporary i mean up to a few years), and were't detrimental to current agreements, rather simply a reduction in available work with an associated reduction in pay. That letter posted above reads entirely differently: it is an unprecedented (and wholly unnecessary) land grab, because they view that they will get away with it. They are seemingly using a time where people are at their most vulnerable to stick the knife further in.

[NoelEvans]

There is a VERY important theme in these Posts:

Belated apology to Maximum Pete. You were indeed too subtle for me and my dim brain.

From chatting to a pal today, it seems that certain pension-rich 60+-year olds are happily operating long haul flights for BA with no view to retiring now and helping out others. Very sad. Selfish people. There were some at bmi too, evidently not yourself.

I'm sorry Huddy boy but I really have to reply to that; I'm an older pilot and not being selfish at all, certainly no more selfish than you sound.
I have a family to support, kids in uni, elderly parents and only a few years left to work before that is it for 20+ years of retirement. Many of you meanwhile have years of employment ahead of you and if the airlines don't bounce back you can do something else.
I still enjoy my job. I'm living this life for me and mine, not for you and yours. I owe you nothing. Good luck to all; I ain't going nowheres voluntarily. Nothing sad in it at all.


I had always planned on jacking it in at 60. Life changed drastically a few years ago and it'll have to be 65 now. If I could go at 60 I would. But it won't be happening.

There is also the inconvenient gap of two years between compulsory retirement at 65 and getting my state pension at 67.

Back to the topic. Good luck to all at BA and their appointed reps tasked with sorting this out as fairly as possible.

How can someone be labeled as 'pension rich'? Has anyone looked into what has been happening to pension funds so far this year? I think that a lot of people's pension planning is being rather shaken up at the moment.

I have been at the end of "you younger guys have lots of time ahead of you to build up a pension somewhere else" comment when turfed out due to redundancy (those exact words ere used to me personally) so I can understand that end of the problem. I am now older and I can understand Fly747's and Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP's situations. Probably the most important point is Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP's "...the inconvenient gap of two years between compulsory retirement at 65 and getting my state pension at 67." That is not only a problem that older pilots will be facing shortly but with the way the industry appears to be going as a whole, those in their 20s now could well be banging their heads against exactly that problem, or an even bigger gap, in future years.


I have been VERY fortunate to have continued flying 'as normal' (although nothing is normal now!). Taxiing past rows of aeroplanes parked and sealed up at almost every airport in several countries and walking through empty terminals with everything closed and almost no lights on, some even becoming dusty after having been thriving terminals only a short while ago, is very, very, very sobering (and weird). If you haven't been able to see it, you probably don't really want to. This problem is much, much bigger than any one of your airlines, no matter how big they are. Best not to become lonely individualists bickering about what someone else might or might not be doing. A lot of pilots are going to be in very 'fragile' situations. Trying to understand each other and if possible support each other would be the most helpful way ahead.

[Andy D]

In case anyone's interested there's an analysis from Lex in this morning's FT on how small the savings would actually be - BA job cuts: peanut analogy | Financial Times (http://archive.is/MUCj1)

(Suspect was written before letter to BALPA became public)

[a1anx]

Who would have thought a company making 2 billion profit would turn around and axe 1/4 of its workforce when the going gets rough? Apart from the staff working for BA, of course, who know what a ruthless, heartless bunch they are.

That £2Bn (or whatever the cash reserve is ) will evaporate like snow off a dyke if they don't make radical cuts. Every airline is in a similar position.

[Northern Monkey]

No airline in the world is going to survive this crisis without government aid.

Willie Walsh is either in denial about that and will eventually have to accept the inevitable, or he would rather see the whole enterprise fold and start over again.

[Bison321]

There is a VERY important theme in these Posts:

How can someone be labeled as 'pension rich'? Has anyone looked into what has been happening to pension funds so far this year? I think that a lot of people's pension planning is being rather shaken up at the moment.

I have been at the end of "you younger guys have lots of time ahead of you to build up a pension somewhere else" comment when turfed out due to redundancy (those exact words ere used to me personally) so I can understand that end of the problem. I am now older and I can understand Fly747's and Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP's situations. Probably the most important point is Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP's "...the inconvenient gap of two years between compulsory retirement at 65 and getting my state pension at 67." That is not only a problem that older pilots will be facing shortly but with the way the industry appears to be going as a whole, those in their 20s now could well be banging their heads against exactly that problem, or an even bigger gap, in future years.

I have been VERY fortunate to have continued flying 'as normal' (although nothing is normal now!). Taxiing past rows of aeroplanes parked and sealed up at almost every airport in several countries and walking through empty terminals with everything closed and almost no lights on, some even becoming dusty after having been thriving terminals only a short while ago, is very, very, very sobering (and weird). If you haven't been able to see it, you probably don't really want to. This problem is much, much bigger than any one of your airlines, no matter how big they are. Best not to become lonely individualists bickering about what someone else might or might not be doing. A lot of pilots are going to be in very 'fragile' situations. Trying to understand each other and if possible support each other would be the most helpful way ahead. Absolutely spot on. Unity is key, it's the only way.... The priority of Balpa should be to preserve and protect jobs and defend and adhere to CLAs.

Distinguish what the company 'needs' as opposed to what they 'want'.

- alternatives to pilot redundancy: part time / job share, unpaid leave, VR/VS (not statutory)
- furlough as opposed to redundancy as a last resort, rehire in seniority when the time comes.

Stick together and support each other.

[Slfsfu]

Guys, when the oil price fell from $100+ to circa $60, a few years ago, the UK lost 120,000 O&G jobs. Not much was said about that but the prospect of 3,000 steel jobs going got a lot of attention

With CV-19 O&G anticipate another 30,000 UK jobs going, from about 150,000.

Life in general and in business can be a bitch, sh1te happens. Nobody owes anyone else a job for life.

Please stop blaming each other or the business. Prepare yourselves as best you can for your own sake and that of your families

[theleftphalange]

We need to collectively question the government on the science behind this lockdown. The cure is worse than the disease. It’s costing the economy greatly and fundamentally our livelihood.

There are plenty of other credible scientists who do not buy into the doom gloom forecasts of Dr Fauci and Neil Furguson. Why are these voices not being reported by the mainstream media.

Good luck to all.

[vlieger]

Guys we need to question the science behind this government lockdown. It’s costing the economy and our livelihoods.

The problem is the UK government ignored the science initially, relied on dodgy behavioural models, then did a U turn and now the UK is a lot worse off than most other countries.

[SADDLER]

Guys we need to question the science behind this government lockdown. It’s costing the economy and our livelihoods.

I agree.
The media is not telling the other side of the story.

[DaveReidUK]

Guys we need to question the science behind this government lockdown. It’s costing the economy and our livelihoods.

Two different issues.

The indisputable fact that the lockdown has a massive economic cost doesn't have any bearing on whether or not the science behind it is sound.

[hunterboy]

The U.K. politicos do seem to be risk averse now, probably after the outcry following the herd immunity policy. I see similarities with the volcanic ash cloud where nobody wanted to make the decision to lift the restrictions until WW launched a load of us off back into U.K. airspace. I still remember various control centres passing the buck stating we were flying into known ash cloud airspace and any responsibility would be mine. Seemed they weren’t too concerned about safety; rather, they didn’t want to shoulder the blame if it all went wrong.

[RoyHudd]

No apology here. I flew with quite a few boring 60 + guys in the left seat who insisted on telling me the size of their pension funds and investments, about their mortgage-free property, and then inform me of their 2012 bangers they drove to the airport to save money. And the bloody DIY they did to save their wealth from greedy tradesmen. There were at least 20 of these thoughtless individuals that I can recall. They were the ones who I wish had retired early and left the opportunities for the younger ones, especially when VR was on the table. None of them did, and I considered them selfish. They were no pleasure to fly with, even though they were all competent.

That was who my post was aimed at, at I know BA have plenty of these in their ranks. Others leaping to their own defence are wasting their time here.

And I am retired, reasonably comfortably, so have no interest personally in keeping my job/seniority.

Wealthy pilots, retire now.

[Flyer28]

Just on the BBC news that BA may not reopen operations at LGW.

[Kirks gusset]

To put in in perspective, Gatwick area stands to loose about 25000 jobs either in airlines or associated with them. BA run a shuttle from LGW carpark to LHR ( or used to in my day!) so it matters not a hoot if they close ops at LGW. The T5 operation at LHR is far superior in any event, Gatwick is always awash with low cost pax eating at the oyster bars and walking around in shorts with tattoos. There is very little or no chance of the local jobs being recovered until passenger numbers pick up. Of course for the BA staff affected it's a far more reaching pain with loss of service benefits, staff travel etc. I'm sure BALPA will do their best but in reality they can't work miracles. Job share schemes do not work well for airlines.

[wiggy]

They were the ones who I wish had retired early and left the opportunities for the younger ones, especially when VR was on the table. None of them did, and I considered them selfish. They were no pleasure to fly with, even though they were all competent.

That was who my post was aimed at, at I know BA have plenty of these in their ranks. Others leaping to their own defence are wasting their time here.

And I am retired, reasonably comfortably, so have no interest personally in keeping my job/seniority.

Wealthy pilots, retire now.

OK Roy,

I'll keep it brief - If the sort of pilots you describe hang on after/if VR is offered, denying junior guys jobs and opportunities, then you might have a point..

[Dobby the house elf]

No apology here. I flew with quite a few boring 60 + guys in the left seat who insisted on telling me the size of their pension funds and investments, about their mortgage-free property, and then inform me of their 2012 bangers they drove to the airport to save money. And the bloody DIY they did to save their wealth from greedy tradesmen. There were at least 20 of these thoughtless individuals that I can recall. They were the ones who I wish had retired early and left the opportunities for the younger ones, especially when VR was on the table. None of them did, and I considered them selfish. They were no pleasure to fly with, even though they were all competent.

That was who my post was aimed at, at I know BA have plenty of these in their ranks. Others leaping to their own defence are wasting their time here.

And I am retired, reasonably comfortably, so have no interest personally in keeping my job/seniority.

Wealthy pilots, retire now. I too am retired, at 55, reasonably comfortable and have no personal interest. I am 100% in agreement with RoyHudd.

I used to be proud to be part of BA, now I am embarrassed by their attack on the pilots. Sad that my BA could have changed so much.

I used to be proud of the community of pilots that I could call myself part of, now some of them embarrass me with their forum posts. I'm embarrassed for myself because I might have called some of those greedy, selfish pilots my friends. I hope I never knew Fly747.

Good luck to all of you out there, whoever you fly for. Most guys at the top had an expectation of a career at BA until 55. Every extra year a bonus. I hope that at least some do the right thing.

[scr1]

Have people seen this

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/303081?fbclid=IwAR1aKgaDUEVf9C40VDCeS73NHmSHtsufDGO8wHQ6Cgh9 gJNFG8lAroPI0Kc

Might not do much good but we can only try

[WHBM]

BA plc still operates and pays tax in the UK
Yes. But in the Starbucks/Virgin Atlantic etc method of corporate finance, multi-national groups invoice between their subsidiaries from one country to another to drain all the profit margin (which is what you tax) off from the major high tax jurisdictions (which is generally where most of the worthwhile turnover is) into one of the group companies which runs in a country with minimal tax.

It's not even as if the funds are then returned to any "investors". BA/IAG have not done any share issue for yonks, the vast majority of their shares that were sold to real investors to raise capital have been traded, and traded again, in what is effectively a professional form of gambling. Shareholders, yes, but investors, no.

[Airbubba]

We’ve had the company proposal through from Balpa, utterly opportunistic smash and grab raid on Ts and Cs which has very little (read nothing) to do with Covid-19 (in much the same fashion as easyJet).

Redundancies split evenly between Captains and FOs. Won’t spill the requested figure precisely suffice to say it’s in four figures.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1683x434/headcount_ba_041817e1e43cd4c58a4c86de449a5f460bda777d.jpg
Does this imply that there may be redundancies in order of seniority by seat, not systemwide date of hire (a relative term with merged lists)? Or does this just mean that the plan, as of two days ago, is to reduce the headcount about the same in both seats?

In other words, would a junior captain possibly be made redundant while a senior first officer might not depending on base and systemwide seniority?

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1694x927/ba_flexibility_069b4c9b801e21f8d170ee04b671adc5cec93545.jpg
'New policies which are non-contractual' sounds very ominous. :eek:

Based on decades of past experience with these 'save the company' deals, there will be a two-phase implementation.

Phase One: Don't worry, it will never happen, our contract is sacred, the union won't ever allow it. Trust me.

Phase Two: It's a done deal, our hands were tied, we had to go along with the company on this or we would have had no inputs to the final (draconian) policies.

[srjumbo747]

Guys, when the oil price fell from $100+ to circa $60, a few years ago, the UK lost 120,000 O&G jobs. Not much was said about that but the prospect of 3,000 steel jobs going got a lot of attention

With CV-19 O&G anticipate another 30,000 UK jobs going, from about 150,000.

Life in general and in business can be a bitch, sh1te happens. Nobody owes anyone else a job for life.

Please stop blaming each other or the business. Prepare yourselves as best you can for your own sake and that of your families
Yes but not many of the O&G workers had to shell out thousands getting themselves a licence.
Not many steel workers were under continuous assessment or indeed have the responsibility of a pilot.
Oil and Gas workers were able to move to different contracts. It’s part of the job which every oil worker knows is transitional.
Have a bit of thought for these professional people who are about to lose everything.

[Whitemonk Returns]

Airbubba I don't work for BA but yes that scenario is realistic, begs the question in the future will a larger proportion of senior FO's continue to pass on opportunities for Command due to this risk? You could have a scenario where someone takes a command, never gets the payrise due to Furlough, and is now looking down the barrel of redundancy. Ask me how I know.... :ugh::rolleyes:

[ShotOne]

VR is not being offered: why are we even discussing it?

Similarly, sifsu, if one of us went on an oil workers website to tell a group of workers facing redundancy that “life is a bitch” he’d be told in short order where to shove it!

[hec7or]

I have a family to support, kids in uni, elderly parents and only a few years left to work before that is it for 20+ years of retirement. Many of you meanwhile have years of employment ahead of you and if the airlines don't bounce back you can do something else.
I still enjoy my job. I'm living this life for me and mine, not for you and yours. I owe you nothing. Good luck to all; I ain't going nowheres voluntarily. Nothing sad in it at all.



I used to be proud of the community of pilots that I could call myself part of, now some of them embarrass me with their forum posts. I'm embarrassed for myself because I might have called some of those greedy, selfish pilots my friends. I hope I never knew Fly747.

Good luck to all of you out there, whoever you fly for. Most guys at the top had an expectation of a career at BA until 55. Every extra year a bonus. I hope that at least some do the right thing.

What is greedy and selfish about putting your kids through Uni and caring for elderly parents?
Very few pilots can afford to retire comfortably at 55

[NoelEvans]

I too am retired, at 55, reasonably comfortable and have no personal interest. I am 100% in agreement with RoyHudd.

I used to be proud to be part of BA, now I am embarrassed by their attack on the pilots. Sad that my BA could have changed so much.

I used to be proud of the community of pilots that I could call myself part of, now some of them embarrass me with their forum posts. I'm embarrassed for myself because I might have called some of those greedy, selfish pilots my friends. I hope I never knew Fly747.

Good luck to all of you out there, whoever you fly for. Most guys at the top had an expectation of a career at BA until 55. Every extra year a bonus. I hope that at least some do the right thing.

Bringing a ten year old plus (or more like 16 year old?) situation into this discussion is irrelevant. (I suspect that Fly747 hopes that he never flew with you.) Pensions are very, very different now.
Have people seen this

https://petition.parliament.uk/petit...JNFG8lAroPI0Kc (https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/303081?fbclid=IwAR1aKgaDUEVf9C40VDCeS73NHmSHtsufDGO8wHQ6Cgh9 gJNFG8lAroPI0Kc)

Might not do much good but we can only try

Done. And I will be encouraging others.

[RexBanner]

Airbubba I don't work for BA but yes that scenario is realistic, begs the question in the future will a larger proportion of senior FO's continue to pass on opportunities for Command due to this risk? You could have a scenario where someone takes a command, never gets the payrise due to Furlough, and is now looking down the barrel of redundancy. Ask me how I know.... :ugh::rolleyes:

Not only that but who’s going to want to take the chance of being junior in either seat? It impacts fleet moves too. Lots of consequences here (unintended or otherwise).

[Wirbelsturm]

Currently you need to be more senior to get an internal RHS move to the 777 than you do to take a reasonably middle of seniority LHS on the 'bus out of Heathrow!
Progressive degradation of lifestyle on SH has led to many pilots taking lifestyle decisions and going part time whilst remaining RHS on a LH fleet.

So, yes, there are an awful lot of Captains who are much more junior than SFO's.

[hunterboy]

Just read Balpa’s reply to AB’s letter. Pretty much sums it up I think. It will be interesting to hear the companies’ responses to the various points raised. Personally, I don’t acknowledge that pleading poverty while sitting on a 7-9 Billion Euro cash pile is morally or legally justifiable.

[TheAirMission]

Just read Balpa’s reply to AB’s letter. Pretty much sums it up I think. It will be interesting to hear the companies’ responses to the various points raised. Personally, I don’t acknowledge that pleading poverty while sitting on a 7-9 Billion Euro cash pile is morally or legally justifiable.

Anyone able to share the letter?

[Airbubba]

Airbubba I don't work for BA but yes that scenario is realistic, begs the question in the future will a larger proportion of senior FO's continue to pass on opportunities for Command due to this risk? You could have a scenario where someone takes a command, never gets the payrise due to Furlough, and is now looking down the barrel of redundancy. Ask me how I know.... :ugh::rolleyes:

VR is not being offered: why are we even discussing it?

Wow, it does look like the company does want to make folks redundant out of seniority order based on 'factors' such as 'operational needs, the anticipated flying programme, skills (including type rating), and, if required, an assessment process'.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1664x420/ba_redundancies_b2f2744ebb3e88a84aef7ea6318f1b625b6ed530.jpg

Wonder what they mean by an 'assessment process'. A 'you bet your licence' sim check?

[Airbubba]

Just read Balpa’s reply to AB’s letter. Pretty much sums it up I think. It will be interesting to hear the companies’ responses to the various points raised. Personally, I don’t acknowledge that pleading poverty while sitting on a 7-9 Billion Euro cash pile is morally or legally justifiable.

Anyone able to share the letter?

Don't have the BALPA letter yet but here's today's 'fighting for every pilot job' media release:

BALPA 'fighting for every pilot job at BA'Release date: 30/04/2020

Responding to the latest news on British Airways, BALPA General Secretary, Brian Strutton said:

“BALPA is fighting to save every pilot job at BA. The company has declined Government support claiming it is financially secure enough to survive the coronavirus crisis, so it is hard to see how these cuts can be justified.

“There are many options to ensure BA can continue its business and survive coronavirus and BALPA does not accept that job losses are the only answer. Pilots want evidence that all options have been explored fully.”

Commenting on reports that BA is pulling out of Gatwick Airport, BALPA General Secretary, Brian Strutton continued:

“As far as BALPA is aware there is no truth in the rumour that British Airways will pull out of Gatwick and there has been no indication of that from BA to us. However, it is on our list of questions to ask them.”

[Donkeygone]

I know this is an unpalatable thing to discuss, but we have to consider the environmental aspect of this. Of course it's terrible for everyone who will lose a job, and that may bring much hardship, but the continual talk of the aviation industry 'bouncing back' and perhaps getting sizeable government support is to decry totally the awful environmental mess we were already in, and continue to be in. Aviation as it was 6 weeks ago is absolutely not sustainable environmentally, anymore than it now is economically. We need to face up to this.

[Airbubba]

Another April 28 BA letter reported in the media.

Letter to colleagues from Alex Cruz, Chairman and CEO at British Airways

Yesterday, British Airways flew just a handful of aircraft out of Heathrow. On a normal day we would fly more than 300. What we are facing as an airline, like so many other businesses up and down the country, is that there is no ‘normal’ any longer.

The global aviation body, IATA, has said that the industry has never seen a downturn this deep before, and that full year industry passenger revenues could plummet 55% compared to 2019, while traffic falls 48%. Many airlines have grounded all of their planes. Sadly, we will see some airlines go out of business with the resulting job losses.

Our very limited flying schedule means that revenues are not coming into our business. We are taking every possible action to conserve cash, which will help us to weather the storm in the short-term. We are working closely with partners and suppliers to discuss repayment terms; we are re-negotiating contracts where possible; and we are considering all the options for our current and future aircraft fleet. All of these actions alone are not enough.

In the last few weeks, the outlook for the aviation industry has worsened further and we must take action now. We are a strong, well-managed business that has faced into, and overcome, many crises in our hundred-year history. We must overcome this crisis ourselves, too.

There is no Government bailout standing by for BA and we cannot expect the taxpayer to offset salaries indefinitely. Any money we borrow now will only be short-term and will not address the longer-term challenges we will face.

We do not know when countries will reopen their borders or when the lockdowns will lift, and so we have to reimagine and reshape our airline and create a new future for our people, our customers and the destinations we serve. We have informed the Government and the Trade Unions of our proposals to consult over a number of changes, including possible reductions in headcount. We will begin a period of consultation, during which we will work with the Trade Unions to protect as many jobs as possible. Your views matter and we will listen to all practical proposals.

The scale of this challenge requires substantial change so we are in a competitive and resilient position, not just to address the immediate Covid-19 pandemic, but also to withstand any longer-term reductions in customer demand, economic shocks or other events that could affect us. However challenging this is, the longer we delay difficult decisions, the fewer options will be open to us.

I want to pay tribute to the thousands of British Airways colleagues who are playing a vital role in the global response to the Covid-19 crisis. Whether you are supporting our repatriation flights or the transport of essential cargo; or one of the hundreds of colleagues volunteering with organisations such as the NHS, you have my sincere respect and thanks.

This has been a difficult message to write and one I never thought I would need to send. I know how tight-knit the BA family is, and how concerned you will be, not just for yourself but for your colleagues, too. We must act decisively now to ensure that British Airways has a strong future and continues connecting Britain with the world, and the world with Britain.

Thank you.

Alex

[RexBanner]

Wonder what they mean by an 'assessment process'. A 'you bet your licence' sim check?

I think the proposed assessment process will only be when they have identified the fleets and seats in “surplus”. At a rough guess that process will be when be a selection matrix will come into play - which may or may not include LIFO or weighted LIFO - that hasn’t exactly been spelled out at this point. As you say, they can hardly make you go into the Sim to see if you can perform well enough to keep your job.

[Busdriver01]

I know this is an unpalatable thing to discuss, but we have to consider the environmental aspect of this. Of course it's terrible for everyone who will lose a job, and that may bring much hardship, but the continual talk of the aviation industry 'bouncing back' and perhaps getting sizeable government support is to decry totally the awful environmental mess we were already in, and continue to be in. Aviation as it was 6 weeks ago is absolutely not sustainable environmentally, anymore than it now is economically. We need to face up to this.

I'll bite because I have nothing better to be doing during quarantine. It's widely accepted in the industry that we must do everything we can to reduce our environmental impact. It's even more widely reported in the media, and shouted loudly from the rooftops by every social media user, how bad aviation is for the environment. The issue is, it gets a disproportionate amount of coverage and hate, for the actual impact it has on the environment.

Of global CO2 emissions, aviation counts for just 2%.

Road transport is many many times worse (and increasing at a higher rate than aviation), shipping is about as much, too. Transportation accounts for roughly 15% of global CO2, and Aviation is one of the smallest parts of the transportation group - as I say road transport being considerably worse.

Why am I saying all of this?

Yes, I accept aircraft pollute. But I don't accept the hysteria associated with flying, because it's popular to flight shame, if people also don't get hysterical about all the other contributors. The simple fact is the large majority of transportation pollutions (road) can be eliminated by using electric power from a green source. The same can be done for most of the other contributing sectors (energy). It cannot be done for aircraft and likely wont in our lifetimes.

How about we stop the hysteria surrounding Aviation and actually do our own research before posting all over social media how bad flying is.

[Doors To Manuel]

we would propose to use statutory terms for redundancy pay
I kept my head down through at least two waves of redundancies in the 90s, and finally went after 9/11 with a pretty generous package that included an enhanced 4 weeks per year, uncapped, plus all the statutory and contractual stuff. I had 15 years.

To be clear, the current 'statutory' is 1.5 weeks per full year (over age 40), capped @ £538 per week, and capped at 12 years.:{

I am now working elsewhere am about to leave on statutory plus enhancement of just 1 extra week for every 3 years.

Times they are a-changing indeed.

[Antichristpilot]

I think the proposed assessment process will only be when they have identified the fleets and seats in “surplus”. At a rough guess that process will be when be a selection matrix will come into play - which may or may not include LIFO or weighted LIFO - that hasn’t exactly been spelled out at this point. As you say, they can hardly make you go into the Sim to see if you can perform well enough to keep your job.

Yes they can... and make sure nobody has the cheat sheet for a change. They can fail as many as they need that way.

[Donkeygone]

Thank you for engaging with the issue (unlike clvf88 who just went for the unflattering ad hominem). You're right of course that aviation is one of many polluting industries. Two of your points stick out to me:
1) one single industry (aviation) counts for 2% of emissions. That's astonishing for a single industry
2) whereas other modes of transport can probably reduce emissions, it's not realistic that aviation will in any reasonable time

If the climate were in a moderately worrying position I think we could accept aviation's contribution and tackle the rest. However, the broad scientific consensus now seems to be that we just cannot be picky about the industries who do and don't contribute.

So I stand by my point: sadly, very sadly, aviation cannot return to business as usual. And that is very apposite to this discussion.

[FlipFlapFlop]

Thank you for engaging with the issue (unlike clvf88 who just went for the unflattering ad hominem). You're right of course that aviation is one of many polluting industries. Two of your points stick out to me:

1) one single industry (aviation) counts for 2% of emissions. That's astonishing for a single industry

2) whereas other modes of transport can probably reduce emissions, it's not realistic that aviation will in any reasonable time


If the climate were in a moderately worrying position I think we could accept aviation's contribution and tackle the rest. However, the broad scientific consensus now seems to be that we just cannot be picky about the industries who do and don't contribute.


So I stand by my point: sadly, very sadly, aviation cannot return to business as usual. And that is very apposite to this discussion.


I also concur with the view that you are deliberately trying to be provocative on a thread being avidly followed by desperately worried BA pilots. Pilots who if they lose their current jobs will lose their careers not to mention the financial loss of their massive self funded training costs.


But I too will bite....

2% is astonishing considering the huge amount of vitriol it attracts from the likes of you. Go away and focus on something that will make a real difference.

If aviation were eliminated in one go, the planet will not notice. Indeed Indian industry would replace it within a month. The point being made though, as you well know, is that there are practical alternatives to other forms of more polluting transportation. There is not for aviation, yet.


Now, please, go away. This is a pilots forum, not for self styled climate activists.

[Ascoteer]

Thank you for engaging with the issue (unlike clvf88 who just went for the unflattering ad hominem). You're right of course that aviation is one of many polluting industries.
1) one single industry (aviation) counts for 2% of emissions. That's astonishing for a single industry
2) whereas other modes of transport can probably reduce emissions, it's not realistic that aviation will in any reasonable time

If the climate were in a moderately worrying position I think we could accept aviation's contribution and tackle the rest. However, the broad scientific consensus now seems to be that we just cannot be picky about the industries who do and don't contribute.


Notwithstanding your incredible (disgusting?) lack of empathy for a whole host of real life people here about to lose their jobs and not have a replacement to go to, one assumes you only get a sailboat when you go back to Guernsey? I thought not.

Good luck to all of you at BA; hopefully CR can be avoided where possible.

[Donkeygone]

Sorry to raise hackles folk. I realise this isn’t the place or audience for this. I’ll shall retire gracefully to the spotters balcony. I genuinely wish the best to everyone who will be affected by this

[MaximumPete]

Belated apology to Maximum Pete. You were indeed too subtle for me and my dim brain.

From chatting to a pal today, it seems that certain pension-rich 60+-year olds are happily operating long haul flights for BA with no view to retiring now and helping out others. Very sad. Selfish people. There were some at bmi too, evidently not yourself.

Many thanks for the apology, much appreciated but not necessary. Times are hard, feelings run high and then these parasites want more and more in this dreadful situation.
Stay safe everyone and good luck to you all.
MP

[Icanseeclearly]

This is doing the rounds, make of it what you will but I think it pretty much hits the nail on the head.

This arrived from a friend this evening, it’s brilliant and she wants it to go viral, it pretty much says it all. Worth getting out there, send it to your other halves, friends, family, everyone. Perhaps the press will pick it up:

“My husband is a senior British Airways captain with over 30 loyal, devoted years of service with the airline. Middle class, solidly Home Counties, and precisely the person whose gentle tones you long to hear upon boarding a British Airways aircraft at the end of an arduous business trip in some moth-eaten corner of the world.

As soon as his mellow, Radio 2 voice, and his “Good evening and ladies and gentlemen “ welcome aboard announcement comes across the PA system, you feel safe and warm, cocooned in the knowledge that for the next however many hours, you are secure in the hands of a consummate professional and his crew.

Your subconscious immediately tries to picture him: a man in his late forties or early fifties, who, at the end of the flight, will no doubt fire up his trusty Volvo estate and drive home to his wife, 2.4 children, and ageing labrador or golden retriever. You might even meet him for a pint in the village local that evening.

You recline into your premium cabin seat, order a G&T, and in your head at least, you’re already back in Blighty as the careworn palm trees whip past your window and the plane rolls along the runway on its takeoff path. That’s my old man, the quintessential BA skipper.

Slice him in half, and you’ll discover the BA logo running through him like a stick of Brighton rock.
I cannot begin to list how many times he has gone above and beyond for his colleagues, passengers and employer.

Always the first to board, and the last to disembark, regardless of how exhausted he might be.

A passenger in need of assistance? He’s there like a shot.

A late wheelchair on arrival back at base? He’ll send everyone home and stay with the passenger until one eventually turns up, which these days can sometimes be an hour or more, not the ideal conclusion to a long night flight.

Crew member taken ill down route? He’ll accompany them to hospital and keep in regular contact until he’s satisfied that they’re ok and all relevant parties have been notified.

Duty. Honour. Responsibility. Decency. Solid British Airways characteristics, or at least they used to be.

BA is his life, and in spite of me telling him for years that his spaniel-like fidelity would always go unrecognised (how right I was), he has stubbornly put his unswerving duty to “The Company” ahead of any other commitments to family or friends.

Now we fear the worst, and fully expect that Messrs Walsh and Cruz will stab him in the back in grateful recognition of his many years of blind loyalty.

COVID-19 is manna from heaven for IAG and the BA board: an opportunity for the company to divest itself of those employees who still enjoy the relative luxury of a half-decent contract and working conditions.

Make no mistake. Henceforth, ALL British Airways employees will be working on minimum salary contracts, with little job security and the cheapest and worst working conditions legally allowable.

“Don’t like it, Captain X? Shove off and we’ll have you replaced within a month...”

Fills one with pride to Fly the Flag, does it not?

BA has the cash reserves to come to a better and infinitely more humane solution than to sack 12,000 employees who would, I am in no doubt, be prepared to work for a reduced salary, thereby reducing costs and meeting the shortfall by sharing out the workload.

The snag with that plan, however, is that IAG, WIllie Walsh and Alex Cruz would lose this never-to-be-repeated-once-in-a-lifetime opportunity which offers them the chance to get rid of their more expensive employees under the cover of crisis.

It’s a gift horse not to be ignored.

Equally, for BA to accept a very cheap government loan would open the door for Virgin, it’s most bitter of rivals, to do the same, thereby giving it the opportunity to find possible salvation.

Walsh and Cruz have therefore concluded that, rather than give their UK opponents any chance of survival, it is preferable to throw their most loyal people to the wolves, and then replace them in a few years with far cheaper labour.

Two birds with one stone. Job done. Management bonuses and Veuve Clique all round.

And there, in a nutshell, is the brutal reality of the “we’ll come out of this a better society”, post-COVID world.

Gone are the gentlemanly days of Lords King and Marshall, who took it upon themselves to actually give a damn about their employees, and who, in return, were admired and respected by the workforce.

Today it is the Wolves of Harmondsworth in charge; they have scented blood and are going in for the kill.

Far from emerging from COVID into a kinder, more understanding place, we will discover that the vultures and hyenas who run our biggest companies will use today’s climate to slice, dice, and butcher their best people in the manner of the most brutal Wuhan wet market.

If you thought things became cutthroat after 2008-9, you ain’t seen nothing yet.

Bottom dollar business, to hell with humanity, and let’s screw whoever we can, (as we have for many years), only now, we have the perfect excuse.

Morals? Decency? Respect?

Only if there’s a profit to be made.

I leave it to you to decide whether that is a reality which you wish to inhabit.

Or a flag you wish to fly.

We’ll take more care of you? Judge for yourself.”

[Whitemonk Returns]

No wonder that Captain spent 30 years devoting his life to BA, the alternative would be staying at home with that wordsmith.. :cool: joking! Don't send the fun police after me... are IAG being cut-throat and extremely cruel? Yes. Is anyone outside of BA surprised? You certainly shouldn't be. My best wishes to all at BA and particularly to BALPA, they have a hell of a fight on their hands but now is not the time to waver, they are not just fighting for the pilots now, but for their own survival. If BA get away with this after the whimpering end to the strikes last year, Balpa will be dead and buried, and that is not good for any of us.

[Tray Surfer]

I know this is mainly pilot focussed...

But target reduction of over 4.500 from Cabin Services... Over a third of the CC workforce.

:bored:

[TURIN]

It is sadly the same story across the airline. Almost a thousand engineering jobs targeted, 120 LAEs earmarked for redundancy, no VS, no deals, If you don't like it you will be sacked and offered a new contract with hugely inferior t & cs. No one has even mentioned the new pension scheme yet. I'm just waiting for them to renage on that 'agreement' too.

I understand the need to make savings when losses are forecast but this opportunist swipe at long standing contractual agreements is sickening.

If BA mamangement read this, please tell me how the hell you sleep at night, or look at yourself in the mirror without loathing?

[mngmt mole]

My thoughts and prayers to all employees of BA. Here in HK (CX) we are shortly expecting a similar attack. Very troubling days for our profession. Probably will never be the same again.

[Holer Moler]

I wish you all the best- but just as a matter of interest, how much money has BA Pilots contributed to BALPA over the last 25 years. And do you think you are getting value for money !

[Built4Speed2]

I wish you all the best- but just as a matter of interest, how much money has BA Pilots contributed to BALPA over the last 25 years. And do you think you are getting value for money !

Even before this crisis the answer was a resounding no. But they’re the only game in town, sadly. Which is why so many of us have remained members through gritted teeth.

Having just read BALPAs response to BA and in particular the signatory at the bottom, I am convinced this will be their biggest debacle to date. Despite stiff competition from previous cock-ups!

i couldn’t be more depressed.

[srjumbo747]

No wonder that Captain spent 30 years devoting his life to BA, the alternative would be staying at home with that wordsmith.. :cool: joking! Don't send the fun police after me... are IAG being cut-throat and extremely cruel? Yes. Is anyone outside of BA surprised? You certainly shouldn't be. My best wishes to all at BA and particularly to BALPA, they have a hell of a fight on their hands but now is not the time to waver, they are not just fighting for the pilots now, but for their own survival. If BA get away with this after the whimpering end to the strikes last year, Balpa will be dead and buried, and that is not good for any of us.

This is a serious time for us all but your first sentence has really cheered me up!
Thank you!
Edited to add, She’s wrong about Lord King. Ruthless.

[Airbubba]

My husband is a senior British Airways captain with over 30 loyal, devoted years of service with the airline. [yadda yadda yadda... - Airbubba]

No wonder that Captain spent 30 years devoting his life to BA, the alternative would be staying at home with that wordsmith..

This is a serious time for us all but your first sentence has really cheered me up!
Thank you!

These TL;DR missives are a familiar part of the failing OGA (Once Great Airline) syndrome I'm afraid. Those Yalies at Pan Am would type similar prose by the pound on the old ALPA ASPEN message board three decades ago. :(

'Don't worry son, the government won't let Pan American go out of business.'

[wiggy]

The second half of that "article" contained some truths but the first half..:ooh:....well at least I can confidently say it wasn't written by my wife.....:oh:

On that subject I must rush, I can hear her approaching. I was handed a list of jobs to do today and if she catches me on t'internet this early in the day I'll be finding out exactly what being sliced in half is like............:E

"Middle class, solidly Home Counties,"..don't make me laugh....

Mind you serious times and all that so the light relief was appreciated...

Uh o...

[wannabe024]

I know this is mainly pilot focussed...

But target reduction of over 4.500 from Cabin Services... Over a third of the CC workforce.

:bored:

Definitely worth highlighting. Simply lovely:

We currently have 6382 Worldwide crew members of which:
• 531 are CSDs
• 1,060 are CSLs
• 4,791 are Main Crew
We currently have 1853 Eurofleet crew members of which:
• 11 are CSDs
• 466 are Pursers
• 1376 are Main Crew
We currently have 6027 Mixed Fleet crew members of which:
• 852 are CSMs
• 5,175 are Cabin Crew
We are proposing to remove the existing fleet structure and create a simple, single group of cabin crew, with a single set of terms and conditions and operating to higher levels of flexibility. Those terms will include temporary layoff or short-time arrangements and a harmonised pay and allowance structure. We are proposing that any new contracts would have new policies including on disciplinary and grievance procedures, performance and absence management which would be non-contractual. We are also proposing some changes to the Redeployment Agreement (see below). The single group of cabin crew would undertake both long-haul and short-haul flying to a flexible scheduling arrangement and at a competitive cost base. The internal organisation structure of this division would have a simplified supervisory structure rather than the current varying arrangements across three fleets. If we are unable to reach agreement on these proposals as part of the consultation process (and we were unable to implement these proposals by relying on the reasonable changes clause in an employee's contract) then we would propose to give all employees notice of dismissal by reason of redundancy and/or some other substantial reason, and offer a proportion of them employment under new terms and conditions (see below). To be clear, everyone who is employed in the Worldwide, Eurofleet and Mixed Fleet teams is impacted by this proposal. The numbers and categories of such employees are set out above.
Headcount reduction - In addition to the structural changes described above, we are proposing the following headcount reductions:
• Non-supervisory roles - As set out above, across Worldwide, Eurofleet and Mixed Fleet there are currently 12,402 employees carrying out non-supervisory functions. We are proposing to reduce this number by 3,811.
• Supervisory roles - As set out above, across Worldwide, Eurofleet and Mixed Fleet there are currently 1,860 employees carrying out supervisory functions. We are proposing to reduce this number by 889
We will consult with you regarding the process for implementing the headcount reduction, but in principle we would propose to put all employees at risk of redundancy (or at risk of dismissal due to some other substantial reason) and determine who to offer a role in the new structure based on factors such as operational needs, skills and performance.

My bold.

Thanks to those who have volunteered in the NHS btw. You've done British Airways proud. British Airways on the other hand...

[hunterboy]

You would be sympathetic to BA if they weren’t sitting on billions in cash, about to buy new aircraft and an airline in `Spain , as well as the free slots at lhr caused by other airlines collapsing. As it is, what they’re proposing is simply shocking. However, to the staff that have dealt with this management shower for years, it comes as no great surprise.

[Thegreenmachine]

Just over 1bn euro loan gurantees announced today for Iberia and Vueling. Could Willie be trying to force the UK gov’s hand?

https://otp.tools.investis.com/clients/uk/international_airlines_group/rns/regulatory-story.aspx?cid=2457&newsid=1388986

[RJ100]

Just over 1bn euro loan gurantees announced today for Iberia and Vueling. Could Willie be trying to force the UK gov’s hand?

https://otp.tools.investis.com/clients/uk/international_airlines_group/rns/regulatory-story.aspx?cid=2457&newsid=1388986

The UK gov have proved time and time again they no interest in saving UK airlines. This is despite all the money that it’s employees pay in taxes each year.

[wiggy]

The UK gov have proved time and time again they no interest in saving UK airlines. This is despite all the money that it’s employees pay in taxes each year.

In recent history I don't think HMG have ever shown any major interest in saving or protecting any strategic industry ... For reasons I cannot fathom :oh: they seem to have bought into a version of the free market that is so laissez faire/devil take the hindmost that it can even make our American cousins look like socialists.

I reckon some MPs and Ministers might finally notice something has changed when they get lobbied by their mates when they finally realise they cannot get to Grand Cayman direct from London anymore....

Ooooh quick, back to work

[Fursty Ferret]

The UK gov have proved time and time again they no interest in saving UK airlines. This is despite all the money that it’s employees pay in taxes each year.

The cheap loan is available to BA regardless of whether the government is interested in bailing out airlines or not. The fact that it's not been applied for suggests that (1) it's considerably more expensive to make people redundant in Spain and (2) that this is an opportunity being seized to deal with terms and conditions at the company once and for all.

[5000psi]

Haven't they provided loans to Wizz and Easy already? The loan to IB and Vueling just shows that they're not above taking loans anymore. Time for the UK gov to start asking questions to the IAG board.

[FRying]

https://www.godsavethepoints.com/british-airways-is-about-to-have-a-people-problem

which should raise the question about social responsibility for corporations. Is it right to leave 12000 families in dire situations at the worst time, only to prove which CEO owns the biggest c*ck around town ? Where do you set the limits of capitalism ? Is Willie Walsh going to cash in massive bonuses out of such a bold move ?

we are back in 1800s.

[TURIN]

Is that even legal? Making people redundant then rehiring them to do the same job with a completely different contract?

Good point.
It is the job role that is redundant, not the individual. Of course, I'm sure BA's HR department is working overtime to discover a legal loophole that will allow them to redifine each job role.

[Stanley Eevil]

From a relative `nobody`, but someone who is passionate about flying and aviation (and a former pilot): my sincere best wishes to everybody out there, and their families, in these turbulent times. I pray that eventually there might be a happy outcome.

[Wirbelsturm]

It's using the crisis as the basis for a massive 'land grab' and the ability to push through a full 'wish list' combination using the Covid 19 crisis as cover.

The Cabin Crew letter is, in my opinion, frankly brutal. They know that they will chop the majority of WW and EF crew with this. There is little or no way that those employees on those contracts will do the same work for the remuneration given by what will effectively be 'the Gatwick' contract. The demise of the service industries across the UK will give rise to a willing flow of applicants who can be easily and quickly trained up to become part of this new, 'efficient' workforce. Again, nothing they could have pushed through without the pandemic as the available group of recruits wouldn't have been there or simply wouldn't accept a slave driven, zero hours contract. Totally opportunistic.

As for Schedule K and Gatwick, it doesn't take much of a leap to see what WW is after especially given his interest in Norwegian in the past. Kill off Schedule K, as called for already, close down the base at Gatwick, hostile buyout of NAS UK operation. Repaint, re-brand as British Airways Holidays and you have a set up SH/LH hub and spoke operation using new 737's and 787's. Add in the ability to restructure the debt down to 1-1.5% and the already existing BA back office and services structure and you have a neat, cheap low-cost holiday carrier branded in BA colours. Only if you can get rid of that pesky Scheduling agreement though.

The rest is all the 'stuff' that as annoyed the senior management for years as they pick and choose what parts of the 'legacy' agreements suit their current agenda. Absence and sickness management? A desperately needed amendment during a pandemic!

Even O'Leary reckons the SH market will recover within 2 years and he's normally the pessimistic one! So El Macho claiming 'several' years for LH whilst all the business travelers are already fed up working from home with Skype/Zoom/Team etc. and missing their lunches, dinners, bars and expense accounts during meetings seems more targeted toward scaremongering the staff than reality. He's never had the business acumen to see that far forward so why start now?

BA provided almost 80% of IAG's combined profit last financial year. What a great idea going forward this won't be. Relationship reset? Well I suppose it is in a way. :rolleyes:

[RTM Boy]

Good point.
It is the job role that is redundant, not the individual. Of course, I'm sure BA's HR department is working overtime to discover a legal loophole that will allow them to redifine each job role.

Under redundancy legislation, it is always the role that is made redundant, not the person. There is no need to look for 'loopholes', because there are plenty of criteria that justify redundancy, set out in legislation. One key redundancy reasonableness criterion is the physical location of the role. This may be what is behind the talk of closing operations at Gatwick. It would be legally more straightforward to make all LGW-based employees redundant, because the base is closing (ie very hard to challenge the redundancy in consultation, or at an Employment Tribunal afterwards).

BA must offer ‘suitable alternative employment’ to anyone facing redundancy (as long as you have been working there for two years or more). It could offer new jobs at LHR, but with new T&Cs.

However, if you live in East Grinstead and work at LGW and face the commute to LHR in a new, less well paid, role, whatever is on offer might not be that attractive in terms of time and cost to the employee.

BA cannot force pay cuts on staff that breach terms of contract, unless the employee voluntarily agrees to it. Trying to frighten employees into accepting worse terms of employment by holding the axe over LGW operations looks to me like hedging bets. BA thinks it can either save alot of money if it gains agreement to worsen terms and keep (some?) of its LGW ops open, which it can always close later on, or close it altogether now and concentrate at LHR T5. Either way it slashes costs.

Given the corporate culture at BA, this really shouldn't surprise anyone. I wouldn't hold out much hope for anything more than statutory minimum payout either.

It's very tough being made redundant in normal times, but so much worse now. My thoughts are with those under notice. I know how gut wrenching it is.

[Cliff Secord]

Don’t think the Home Counties (what, why?), plummy middle England thing was relevant or well placed. Not likely to illicit sympathy or probably chime with many at that firm.

But outside the sentiment, meat and potatoes points are good.

Awful times.

[The Foss]

Under redundancy legislation, it is always the role that is made redundant, not the person. There is no need to look for 'loopholes', because there are plenty of criteria that justify redundancy, set out in legislation. One key redundancy reasonableness criterion is the physical location of the role. This may be what is behind the talk of closing operations at Gatwick. It would be legally more straightforward to make all LGW-based employees redundant, because the base is closing (ie very hard to challenge the redundancy in consultation, or at an Employment Tribunal afterwards).


I may have misunderstood it but was the letter not threatening redundancy for all cabin crew at both bases?

[Jamie2009]

This is truly awful.. I feel sorry for the pilots that left Flybe just before its demise to join BA.....


I simply cannot believe that during a global crisis a company is seeking to take advantage by screwing its employees and I can’t believe WW stayed on to do it.
I know its show business not show friends but this is taking the piss!
I didn't think Virgin should receive a hand out but now I hope they do and WW is told to F$%k off back to Madrid.

No Chance they'll close LGW, Jet2 are probably already planning to open a base and buy some 787s from Norwegian

[Busdriver01]

There was significant outcry when a certain Irish COO tried to do similar at the orange loco - so much so that senior government bods were 'aware'. I see no difference in this attack than in the former, and so I would hope there will be as much outcry / awareness this time.

[Driver airframe]

A few key points . No one is flying . Zero cashflow . Ballot asap for an indefinite strike . Its got to be better than a zero hours contract for the poor sods left flogging across the pond at some ridiculous hour of the night .

[macdo]

No Chance they'll close LGW, Jet2 are probably already planning to open a base and buy some 787s from Norwegian

I assume this was tongue in cheek. If not, what make you consider that J2 is immune to this carnage and ready to expand?

[RTM Boy]

I may have misunderstood it but was the letter not threatening redundancy for all cabin crew at both bases?

It depends on who/where the 12,000 employees are that receive the individual redundancy 'at risk' letter as part of their 45-day statutory consultation. I've not seen any details of that letter or who's received it - if it's even been issued yet.

[Kev Agamemnon]

Ballot asap for an indefinite strike .

What good is that going to do at a time, when as you yourself acknowledge, no one is flying anyway.

They'd probably be grateful for the reduction in the wage bill.

[Busdriver01]

Despite saying he doesn't want a bailout from the British government for BA, IAG (Walsh) has accepted a 1b€ bailout for Iberia and Vueling from the Spanish government.

This is one of the most disgusting things I’ve seen throughout this whole debacle. How can they even think this is morally acceptable?

[Markos.]

Despite saying he doesn't want a bailout from the British government for BA, IAG (Walsh) has accepted a 1b€ bailout for Iberia and Vueling from the Spanish government.

Please let's stick to the real facts. The Spanish govt hasn't issued a bailout for Iberia and Vueling. They have just offered a credit line throught the ICO (Offical Credit Institute). That is money (liquidity), to avoid the companies collapse. This credit lines have better T&C's than the traditional banks or investors. This "ICO" credits have been also offered to hundreds of company through all the sectors in Spain.
Summing up: Spanish govt has lent money to Iberia and Vlg as a bank. Iberia and Vlg will have to pay back with a more flexible calendar and with less fees.

[clipstone1]

BA have issued the letter to the Union that says clearly "all cabin crew, regardless of contract at LHR are at risk (listing all three contracts and the ranks of the crew under each contract), all 3 employment contracts at LHR will be removed and will not apply in future and a new contract will be issued and if crew do not sign it they will be dismissed from the business by way of Redundancy or Other Substantive reason"

They're making it clear that people will exit the business during a period of mid June to end December 2020 and that redundancy will be comply with statutory minimums and will not be enhanced due to the current environment.

It is clearly a premeditated plan, they've had sat on the shelf waiting for an opportunity to implement and being the low live beings they are they have chosen this moment, mid furlough, to implement and screw over the crew (regardless of whether they are EF, WW or MF) whilst paying Willy an additional £3m bonus.

The result will be, even for those that stay, a fully disgruntled work force, offering even poorer service than they do already, and I hope it is kept in the headlined long enough for the world to see them for what they are and stop flying with them out of principle. Hope the business fails big time.

[Wirbelsturm]

world to see them for what they are and stop flying with them out of principle. Hope the business fails big time.

Brilliant idea. Screw ALL remaining employees thanks to the over zealous actions of the senior management as they try and reduce T's & C's to what exists already in many, many airlines. What a fantastic scheme. :rolleyes:

Ever seen Monty Python? Syrian Suicide Squad? Similar level.

[xray one]

Markos wrote:

Please let's stick to the real facts. The Spanish govt hasn't issued a bailout for Iberia and Vueling. They have just offered a credit line throught the ICO (Offical Credit Institute). That is money (liquidity), to avoid the companies collapse. This credit lines have better T&C's than the traditional banks or investors. This "ICO" credits have been also offered to hundreds of company through all the sectors in Spain.
Summing up: Spanish govt has lent money to Iberia and Vlg as a bank. Iberia and Vlg will have to pay back with a more flexible calendar and with less fees.

It's still money, a credit line, something to keep the 'wolf from the door' Willy 'dick waving' Walsh is on record that no help, at all, should be given to ANY airline. Utter hypocrisy, and his workforce is suffering because of it.

[GKOC41]

I think BA have opened the bottom drawer of problems they long wanted to fix and thrown it in. For BA staff worried about CV19 to receive this at this time is a worry. No mention of how many Directors are going to get the bullet I assume...

[RexBanner]

WW doesn’t care though because he’s not a normal human being, he lacks any basic empathy. In short he’s a psychopath. Unfortunately these are traits that are widespread in business nowadays. Don’t even bother asking what they think when they look in the mirror. They just don’t care.

[Spunky Monkey]

Fight fire with fire and go on the offensive.
Call a strike, ground the fleet, Pilots first and if CC and others want to join let them.
The country is looking the other way at the moment and aren't able to fly, so you won't hurt the man on the street, however you will hurt management who will be making a plan to get aircraft back in the air.
If T5 is closed, then they are really going to struggle.

[RTM Boy]

WW doesn’t care though because he’s not a normal human being, he lacks any basic empathy. In short he’s a psychopath. Unfortunately these are traits that are widespread in business nowadays. Don’t even bother asking what they think when they look in the mirror. They just don’t care.
With the rise and rise of accountants running all sorts of businesses these days, when they're not loading unsustainable colossal amounts of debt onto company balance sheets, claiming it's "efficient", and thus consigning them to bankruptcy down the line (see eg Thomas Cook), employees are simply seen as a cost centre by CEOs with an MBA and their team of number crunchers. When they say "our employees are our greatest asset" they mean they cost the most and like any asset, when you don't want it anymore, get rid.

Many, many years ago I had a meeting with our firm's chief accountant who was demanding we cut staffing on a project because the company 'needed' to save money. I explained precisely why this was a very bad idea and what the consequences would be, including that we would be breaching the contract we had with the client for doing what he was demanding. He then simply repeated his demand to drop the headcount. I suggest he could save even more money if the business got rid of all staff altogether. I swear than for a second my sarcastic idea crossed his mind as a viable option.

[HZ123]

There seems to be a problem on here that many do not seem to grasp the severity of the problem. It is irrelevant the callous management style exercised at the present time. BA staff must be completely aware of the situation and to many it has not come as a surprise. As for personal abusive attacks on WW, that achieves nothing. How do those on here assume that thousands of staff doing nothing can be kept on the payroll until things get better. As for the last post 'call a strike' that is nonsense and the one before calling WW a psychopath should be removed. If threaders cannot contribute sensibly then say nothing. Peoples livelihoods are at stake here!

[Tommy Gavin]

Fight fire with fire and go on the offensive.
Call a strike, ground the fleet, Pilots first and if CC and others want to join let them.
The country is looking the other way at the moment and aren't able to fly, so you won't hurt the man on the street, however you will hurt management who will be making a plan to get aircraft back in the air.
If T5 is closed, then they are really going to struggle.

The fleet is already grounded so strike is no weapon at all. The remaining flights will be done by management pilots and pilots in their probation period. You should make alternative offers like ze Germans or perhaps an extensive part time option for the more senior (expensive) pilots. Play the press. Sociopaths like MOL, WW or Jeff Bezos and the likes aren't exactly loved at the moment.

[hunterboy]

I think BA have opened the bottom drawer of problems they long wanted to fix and thrown it in
wow, if a company making close to 2 billion euros profits has a bottom drawer full of problems, it makes you wonder how on Earth they made that much money ? Also makes you wonder what IAG are going to do to the companies that didn’t generate the vast majority of the profits.

[RTM Boy]

Fight fire with fire and go on the offensive.
Call a strike, ground the fleet, Pilots first and if CC and others want to join let them.
The country is looking the other way at the moment and aren't able to fly, so you won't hurt the man on the street, however you will hurt management who will be making a plan to get aircraft back in the air.
If T5 is closed, then they are really going to struggle.
Is the timing of BA's action not designed to nullify any impact from a potential strike? With almost the whole fleet grounded, most staff furloughed, what impact would it have on management? With demand likely to be very subdued even after lockdown (and that could go on for months and months) BA could fly a skeleton service for an extended period even with a huge strike on its hands. Timing is everything and BA's management does seem to be taking advantage of an 'opportunity' whilst the unions have very limited options.

[Jamie2009]

There seems to be a problem on here that many do not seem to grasp the severity of the problem. It is irrelevant the callous management style exercised at the present time. BA staff must be completely aware of the situation and to many it has not come as a surprise. As for personal abusive attacks on WW, that achieves nothing. How do those on here assume that thousands of staff doing nothing can be kept on the payroll until things get better. As for the last post 'call a strike' that is nonsense and the one before calling WW a psychopath should be removed. If threaders cannot contribute sensibly then say nothing. Peoples livelihoods are at stake here!


Normal Redundancies as per current agreements could be understood by anyone in this climate as a necessity but they seem to be taking advantage of the situation to reshape the business in a take it or leave it way. A strike won't achieve much as the Public generally have little sympathy for pilots on £100k plus preventing them from getting where they need to go.

[Jamie2009]

Jet2 will be just fine, don't think the words Jet2 and bail out have ever been mentioned once by anyone ever.

[overstress]

Jet2 will be just fine, don't think the words Jet2 and bail out have ever been mentioned once by anyone ever.

This is a thread about BA. No one need mention Jet2.

[deltahotel]

I don’t think you understand UK employment law. Secondary action is illegal, the Union’s funds would be seized and non BA pilots striking in support would be sacked.

[RexBanner]

There seems to be a problem on here that many do not seem to grasp the severity of the problem. It is irrelevant the callous management style exercised at the present time. BA staff must be completely aware of the situation and to many it has not come as a surprise. As for personal abusive attacks on WW, that achieves nothing. How do those on here assume that thousands of staff doing nothing can be kept on the payroll until things get better. As for the last post 'call a strike' that is nonsense and the one before calling WW a psychopath should be removed. If threaders cannot contribute sensibly then say nothing. Peoples livelihoods are at stake here!

A psychopath is someone who lacks remorse or empathy, it doesn’t have to mean they’re Ted Bundy, Ed Gein or even Jason Vorhees. How exactly does WW not fit this description?

He’s just put his begging bowl out for Vueling and Iberia (no redundancies so far) but, with an act of gross hypocrisy, refuses to do the same for BA because he’d rather pressure the U.K. government to fail to act and ensure Virgin go under and is willing to use 12,000 of his own staff’s livelihoods and families as collateral damage in that process. Pray tell me again why I’m wrong in my assessment of his character?

(And if you’d read further back in the thread my comments were in response to a post (not quoted) asking how management sleep at night. This was my answer. FYI You’re not the forum police and you don’t get to censor posts because you have failed to understand the meaning of a word or its context)

[Airbubba]

BALPA has declared a MAYDAY.

Pilots union sends out a ‘Mayday’ distress call amidst tsunami of job cuts.Release date: 01/05/2020



The British Airline Pilots Association has issued a ‘Mayday’ distress call for the aviation industry as Ryanair becomes the latest airline to announce potential job cuts and predictions of more to come.

The announcement that 3000 jobs are on the line at Ryanair comes just days after British Airways announced it is also planning 12,000 redundancies.

The pilots’ union says enforced travel restrictions as a result of coronavirus are having a devastating impact on aviation and it is an emergency the Government can no longer ignore.

Before COVID-19 hit the UK aviation brought at least £22 billion to the UK economy, along with over 230,000 jobs.

Airlines contribute enormously to the vibrancy of the UK economy bringing a direct contribution to GDP of £5.2 billion and an overall contribution of £10.9 billion, when the effects of the supply chain and workforce are added.

BALPA is calling for the Government to deliver its package of support to help our airlines though this crisis and protect the multitude of other industries that are indirectly reliant on aviation.

The Government must recognise that global trade and economic recovery will be severely impacted if our world leading aviation industry is allowed to falter, while its competitors are propped up by their governments.

BALPA General Secretary Brian Strutton said:

“Before coronavirus the UK aviation industry was world leading. But now aviation workers are facing a Tsunami of job losses.

“There is no more time for delay. The UK Government should follow the example set by others in Europe and around the world, recognise that aviation is vital to the UK economy and keep to the promise made by the Chancellor on 17 March to help airlines.

“Without swift action, UK aviation will fall behind our global competitors and it simply won’t be there to aid recovery when the demand returns.

“Aviation will suffer, and so too will the industries that rely on aviation indirectly and our ability to trade on a global scale. That can only be bad for the UK economy.

“Around the world we are seeing other governments back their airlines and this will distort the global market place and leave the UK floundering.

“The Government should step in to preserve the future of our national airline industry and work with unions and airlines to prevent the loss of the tens of thousands of jobs that are on the line.

“With full Brexit looming at the end of this year it would be a disaster.”

[The Foss]

There seems to be a problem on here that many do not seem to grasp the severity of the problem. It is irrelevant the callous management style exercised at the present time. BA staff must be completely aware of the situation and to many it has not come as a surprise. As for personal abusive attacks on WW, that achieves nothing. How do those on here assume that thousands of staff doing nothing can be kept on the payroll until things get better. As for the last post 'call a strike' that is nonsense and the one before calling WW a psychopath should be removed. If threaders cannot contribute sensibly then say nothing. Peoples livelihoods are at stake here!
The staff understand the severity of the situation and I’m sure aren’t expecting to be fully paid (none I’m aware of currently are) to sit at home doing nothing.
An adult discussion, exploring options such as unpaid leave/sabbaticals, temporary pay cuts, part time working etc would have been a good starting point, rather than pulling out a grenade straight away.

[Superpilot]

BALPA can, through the individual CCs, urge all union members (regardless of airline) to align with a common goal. That wouldn't be secondary action but probably wouldn't be realistic in any case.

[sikeano]

There seems to be a problem on here that many do not seem to grasp the severity of the problem. It is irrelevant the callous management style exercised at the present time. BA staff must be completely aware of the situation and to many it has not come as a surprise. As for personal abusive attacks on WW, that achieves nothing. How do those on here assume that thousands of staff doing nothing can be kept on the payroll until things get better. As for the last post 'call a strike' that is nonsense and the one before calling WW a psychopath should be removed. If threaders cannot contribute sensibly then say nothing. Peoples livelihoods are at stake here!



^^^^^^^

Agree with this.

[M.Mouse]

I am retired from BA. I feel for everybody in the aviation world facing massive uncertainty and potentially redundancy.

Assume the company either take loans or government help to keep everybody employed. How does that work given the consensus seems to be it will be a year or more before the aviation industry recovers and the scale of the recovery itself is open to debate? The cost of maintaining everybody in full employment is just not viable for more than a few months.

WW has been referred to as a psychopath. He probably has high psycopathic traits but then that is what makes effective leaders. People with high psychopathic traits can make decisions based purely on facts and logic with emotion not playing the slightest part in decision making. He will not make a decisions because it would be nice to keep everybody employed but will make decisions which ensure IAG/BA survives and is as fit as can be to deal with this worldwide disaster.

It doesn't alter the fact that advantage is being taken of the situation to address the legacy issues which have been a rope around BA's neck for years. This is not the time or place to argue about those issues but the unions have defended them for years. The opportunity is now seen to take an axe to them.

The above is not any sort of defence but an observation from my knowledge and experience of BA and WW.

Good luck to everybody facing such an uncertain and troubling future.

[MungoP]

Employees often fail to grasp that the CEO has a list of priorities; The first is that 'The company must still be in business when the sun rises tomorrow.'.
The second is the stock-price
Third; The stock-holders.
Employees don't even come within the top 20. All the 'management-speak' about the employees being the company's greatest asset etc is pure BS.. In the eyes of a CEO, employees are a costly necessity, nothing more.

[Cliff Secord]

Just a point. Psychopaths making auto effective leaders is old codswallop. There do happen to be psychopaths in leadership positions but that is through their self desire. It doesn’t infer in reverse their effectiveness

Interpersonal: They’re manipulative, deceitful, and/or narcissistic.
Affective: They lack remorse, are callous, and may take pleasure in hurting others.
Lifestyle: They’re impulsive, may use illegal substances, and may have disregard for the consequences of their actions.
Antisocial: They are physically aggressive and may have a history of or tendency toward criminal behavior.

sorry massive thread drift...

[NoelEvans]

...
I have been VERY fortunate to have continued flying 'as normal' (although nothing is normal now!). Taxiing past rows of aeroplanes parked and sealed up at almost every airport in several countries and walking through empty terminals with everything closed and almost no lights on, some even becoming dusty after having been thriving terminals only a short while ago, is very, very, very sobering (and weird). If you haven't been able to see it, you probably don't really want to. This problem is much, much bigger than any one of your airlines, no matter how big they are. Best not to become lonely individualists bickering about what someone else might or might not be doing. A lot of pilots are going to be in very 'fragile' situations. Trying to understand each other and if possible support each other would be the most helpful way ahead.
I apologise for quoting myself, but with the bickering that I see on here recently and the stupidity of calls for strikes and 'grounding fleets' (they ARE grounded already, what more do you want???!!!), I feel I need to re-emphasise what I have seen. I see no chance of airlines staying in business with some of those attitudes being bandied about. The industry is on its knees. Stop trying to chop those knees off too. Forget your Ts&Cs. You don't have the fare-paying customers to fund them. And you are unlikely to have for a long time. In the future if I was going to chose which airline ticket to buy, I would far rather pay to fly on an airline where the pilots had done everything to keep the airline in business and as many pilot employed as possible. Auf Wiedersehen.

[a1anx]

There seems to be a problem on here that many do not seem to grasp the severity of the problem. It is irrelevant the callous management style exercised at the present time. BA staff must be completely aware of the situation and to many it has not come as a surprise. As for personal abusive attacks on WW, that achieves nothing. How do those on here assume that thousands of staff doing nothing can be kept on the payroll until things get better. As for the last post 'call a strike' that is nonsense and the one before calling WW a psychopath should be removed. If threaders cannot contribute sensibly then say nothing. Peoples livelihoods are at stake here!

Absolutely right. This terrible situation can only be made worse by intemperate behaviour.

[the_stranger]

In the future if I was going to chose which airline ticket to buy, I would far rather pay to fly on an airline where the pilots had done everything to keep the airline in business and as many pilot employed as possible. Auf Wiedersehen.To be honest, I'd rather fly an airline which itself tried to keep as many staff employed. And if people had to be layed off, than under the best provisions possible.

[techwatcher]

Is that even legal? Making people redundant then rehiring them to do the same job with a completely different contract?

Yes it is legal. It's known informally within HR Departments as the "nuclear option" because whilst an organisation can do this, it does leave the organisation open to unfair dismissal claims.

[DaveReidUK]

Employees often fail to grasp that the CEO has a list of priorities; The first is that 'The company must still be in business when the sun rises tomorrow.'.
The second is the stock-price
Third; The stock-holders.
Employees don't even come within the top 20.

So what are the other 17+ priorities that come before employees ?

[kintyred]

To be honest, I'd rather fly an airline which itself tried to keep as many staff employed. And if people had to be layed off, than under the best provisions possible.

A noble thought but the reality is that most airline tickets are sold on the basis of price. The airline that can sell the cheapest tickets will keep the largest number of people employed. I’ll leave you to work out the likely terms and conditions of the employees.

[Kirks gusset]

https://www.cityam.com/iag-secures-spanish-state-aid-for-iberia-and-vueling-despite-ba-job-cuts/amp/?fbclid=IwAR2obBob81U6q1rMsULZW1Z8lgdR6OwZd_gyZS7xjaOkZpYHVM Dxb1NTKp0
As usual the UK is not a level playing field !

[FlipFlapFlop]

It does appear this thread has been taken over by BA management and their friends.

[Oh gaim]

Relax ... they have their top men working on it ...

Exclusive: Britain hires Morgan Stanley to advise on aviation rescue plan - sources
https://reut.rs/3fcONI7

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/480x360/092bdf48_3834_4525_a8a5_a0253757227e_63bcab7bf6bf6156bacb0e3 408ac1f48853d95da.jpeg

[ILS27LEFT]

"Dear Allison, Thank you for your message. I am incredibly sorry that, at this time of great uncertainty for the nation, British Airways, and their parent, IAG, have made a decision to put thousands of employees through a consultation with a view to 12,000 redundancies across its workforce. From a local perspective, and not always appreciated by all constituents, I have been a vocal supporter of Gatwick and of BA at Gatwick. The constituency I represent has relatively low wages compared to the regional norm. Those who work at Gatwick are able to boost our local economy. This is even more important at this current time. Talk of BA withdrawing from Gatwick would be devastating for our local economy and our ability to connect with the globe. From a national perspective, I chair the Transport Select Committee. Next Wednesday morning, we are holding our first session on our Inquiry around Aviation and the impact from Coronavirus. Details are below: https://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/transport-committee/news-parliament-2017/impact-coronavirus-uk-transport-19-21/ We did invite Willie Walsh, of IAG, to attend as a witness but he is tied up with a board meeting. This is unfortunate because Willie is not backwards in coming forwards. Instead, Airlines UK, the umbrella organisation for UK airlines, which includes BA, will give evidence alongside the Chief Executive of Heathrow and others. In the next session, on 20 May, we will hear from the unions and the Aviation Minister. We will be asking about the planned redundancies. Of key concern to me is whether BA are using this epidemic environment to restructure. I appreciate that there is huge uncertainty, and a view that the market may not return to pre-Covid times until 2023 (if it does). BA, and it’s parent, have to prepare for this. The furloughing scheme will not last indefinitely but BA have been fast out of the blocks if this is just a reaction to the Covid 19 epidemic. My concern on this front is not helped by the news, which has just now broken, that IAG has just taken out a €1 billion Spanish state-backed loan. Previously, Willie Walsh lambasted other airlines for looking for state aid. With £7billion of reserves, IAG stated that it would address internally with ‘self-help’ before it resorted to Government aid. It is important that this ‘self-help’ is not job losses in the UK, as opposed to the position in Spain where fewer job losses are expected and the company has sought Government finance. I hasten to add that it is my understanding that IAG/BA have not come to the UK Government or Bank of England to ask for aid before making the announcement on redundancies. There are many questions which require answers from BA. As a result, I have sought permission from my committee members to ensure that BA do appear before the Transport Select Committee. If Willie Walsh is tied up then he should run an organisation where he can delegate someone to speak on his behalf. This is all moving at pace but I hope it demonstrates that I will use my local and national voice to hold British Airways to account. I have also reached out to other MPs to ramp up the pressure. You will be able to watch our virtual Select Committee proceedings, either on Parliament TV or BBC Parliament (which tends to catch up). With best wishes,"

[MungoP]

DaveReidUK
So what are the other 17+ priorities that come before employees ?

They'll be down there somewhere below the CEO's cat.

[nowhereasfiled]

Nice to see the chair of the Transport Select Committee has done his homework on “British Airlines”.

[M.Mouse]

Just a point. Psychopaths making auto effective leaders is old codswallop. There do happen to be psychopaths in leadership positions but that is through their self desire. It doesn’t infer in reverse their effectiveness

Interpersonal: They’re manipulative, deceitful, and/or narcissistic.
Affective: They lack remorse, are callous, and may take pleasure in hurting others.
Lifestyle: They’re impulsive, may use illegal substances, and may have disregard for the consequences of their actions.
Antisocial: They are physically aggressive and may have a history of or tendency toward criminal behavior.

sorry massive thread drift...

Try reading Dr. Kevin Dutton's book on the subject and you will realise your quotes are sweeping generalisations which, while true of some people, is far from the norm.

[The Foss]

Nice to see the chair of the Transport Select Committee has done his homework on “British Airlines”.
At least they aren’t the CEO of “British Airlines”

[Douglas Bahada]

The simple way to punish these carriers that are driving through opportunistic cost cutting is to deny them slots at premium airports and rewarding those who are socially responsible.(if that is possible).

[RexBanner]

I’m so happy this is getting some serious attention at the highest levels. Depending how the media play this (and we’ve seen their power, it’s how we got here) I think (hope) it’s not too optimistic to think the fallout from this could be another Ratners but on a much larger scale. Walsh must be getting old, he’s potentially played his hand very poorly here.

Potentially trying to push through a new detrimental and oppressive sickness and absence monitoring policy and putting Cabin Crew on zero hours contracts during a time of a worldwide medical pandemic certainly wont play well.

[Tartiflette Fan]

"Call a strike, ground the fleet,"

And where is it currently ?

[Mister Geezer]

IMHO it will be a battle of if the unions or the company has the slicker PR machine. Media outlets thrive on controversy and speculation and there is plenty of fuel to add to that fire if it's suggested that BA is exploiting a global health pandemic to slay staff numbers and drive though over zealous detrimental changes to terms and conditions. Changes that are far from proportional to the crisis at hand.

No company likes copious amounts of bad press and especially so in demanding times at these. Jo Public is none the wiser and just thinks that BA is making 12,000 staff redundant, to ensure survival. Now is the time to enlighten your loyal customers and the wider public of the reality at hand and ensure that the media hold your management to account.

[Tartiflette Fan]

"wow, if a company making close to 2 billion euros profits has a bottom drawer full of problems, it makes you wonder how on Earth they made that much money ?"

How much were you making when they made that ?

[RTM Boy]

IMHO it will be a battle of if the unions or the company has the slicker PR machine. Media outlets thrive on controversy and speculation and there is plenty of fuel to add to that fire if it's suggested that BA is exploiting a global health pandemic to slay staff numbers and drive though over zealous detrimental changes to terms and conditions. Changes that are far from proportional to the crisis at hand.

No company likes copious amounts of bad press and especially so in demanding times at these. Jo Public is none the wiser and just thinks that BA is making 12,000 staff redundant, to ensure survival. Now is the time to enlighten your loyal customers and the wider public of the reality at hand and ensure that the media hold your management to account.

The trouble is that the wider public will be indifferent. Why do I say this? Because the focus will remain on the virus, the NHS, the death toll, the R number, the NHS, the changes to lockdown restrictions, the second wave, the vaccine, key workers, the NHS, the NHS, the NHS, etc., and everyone’s OWN job. The whole economy is in crisis, not just aviation, and bankruptcies and mass job losses will cut through swathes of businesses up and down the country. The travel sector will be just one part of the whole slump.

Flying has become a commodity product. For most travellers cheapest fare wins. By trying to take on ‘budget’ airlines, BA has shot itself in the foot by lowering service standards to their level, so that there is no point of differentiation other than price, certainly on short haul. Business travellers will stay away post-lockdown as corporate health and safety do risk assessment on business travel and advise against travel.

So, what BA does will be just another story of job loses...

[captain8]

The elephant in the room is that BA has become irrelevant in our corona hit world. However, their management scream redundancies to force the uk governments hand.
Pilots love BA, its supportive culture, but alas it no longer respects them. As stated in an earlier post.
The employees have become bitter , and the vitriolic rantings earlier on her demonstrate this.
Don’t shoot the messenger.
Please don’t bail out BA. They can pay their own way. You want my tax dollars? No way, BA.

[TURIN]

Please don’t bail out BA. They can pay their own way. You want my tax dollars? No way, BA.

Too late, BA have been taking your dollar for weeks now. Furlough payments designed to stop redundancies.

[Mister Geezer]

The trouble is that the wider public will be indifferent. Why do I say this? Because the focus will remain on the virus, the NHS, the death toll, the R number, the NHS, the changes to lockdown restrictions, the second wave, the vaccine, key workers, the NHS, the NHS, the NHS, etc., and everyone’s OWN job. The whole economy is in crisis, not just aviation, and bankruptcies and mass job losses will cut through swathes of businesses up and down the country. The travel sector will be just one part of the whole slump.

Flying has become a commodity product. For most travellers cheapest fare wins. By trying to take on ‘budget’ airlines, BA has shot itself in the foot by lowering service standards to their level, so that there is no point of differentiation other than price, certainly on short haul. Business travellers will stay away post-lockdown as corporate health and safety do risk assessment on business travel and advise against travel.

So, what BA does will be just another story of job loses...

It is one thing for a company to lay off staff due to legitimate pressures on their business. It is a far more sinister scenario if it is portrayed that one of the UK's biggest brands goes a step further and uses the pandemic as a callous excuse to leave more staff out of a job than necessary and leave those remaining, facing disproportionate cuts to Ts and Cs and all in the name of opportunistic business gain. To do so is unforgivable in the best of economic climates but to carry this out when the world is on its knees is beneath contempt.

I agree that many of the public are juggling more balls than normal with all the extra pressures at present but with live streaming news at our fingertips, informing the wider world of your plight has never been easier and bad news makes good headlines.

[TURIN]

There seems to be a problem on here that many do not seem to grasp the severity of the problem. It is irrelevant the callous management style exercised at the present time. BA staff must be completely aware of the situation and to many it has not come as a surprise. As for personal abusive attacks on WW, that achieves nothing. How do those on here assume that thousands of staff doing nothing can be kept on the payroll until things get better. As for the last post 'call a strike' that is nonsense and the one before calling WW a psychopath should be removed. If threaders cannot contribute sensibly then say nothing. Peoples livelihoods are at stake here!

There is a government idea called The Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme. It involves a company accepting government (IE tax payers) money to supplement the wage bill to avoid redundancies. BA is currently part of this scheme. I don't expect this scheme to run indefinately but I do expect those companies who use it to live by it's rules.

Many of us understand the economic impact of this lockdown and the effect on airlines but this is complete opportunism by BA. No one will want to work for this company again if this morally bancrupt bunch of directors get their way. No one. When the economy picks up again and new airlines spring up there will be a mass exodus of highly qualified personel of all grades jumping ship. BA will be a shell of its former glory. Nice one Mt Walsh, well done.

[Oasis]

I can’t find seem to find out if the redundancies are going to be based on seniority, as they seem to be across captains and first officers alike. Can someone shed light on this?

[Islandlad]

Many of us understand the economic impact of this lockdown and the effect on airlines but this is complete opportunism by BA. No one will want to work for this company again if this morally bancrupt bunch of directors get their way. No one.
But you can be sure, they will.

[Ollie Onion]

They are looking to make people redundant and avoid downtraining which would result by doing it purely by seniority. So if 200 are to go from the A320 it will be the 100 most junior Captains and FO's, likewise on all the other fleets. I assume that the most effected fleets will be the longhaul ones.

[Riskybis]

Many of us understand the economic impact of this lockdown and the effect on airlines but this is complete opportunism by BA. No one will want to work for this company again if this morally bancrupt bunch of directors get their way. No one. When the economy picks up again and new airlines spring up there will be a mass exodus of highly qualified personel of all grades jumping ship. BA will be a shell of its former glory. Nice one Mt Walsh, well done.[/QUOTE]

I can assure you , that hundreds if not thousands will still be desperate to fly for BA , people are blinded by “flying the flag” etc...
One of the only the big positives I had for BA before I left (when I made the list of for and against) was job security, always thought BA would never get rid of pilots , god was I wrong ...

[Oh gaim]

There is a government idea called The Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme. It involves a company accepting government (IE tax payers) money to supplement the wage bill to avoid redundancies. BA is currently part of this scheme. I don't expect this scheme to run indefinately but I do expect those companies who use it to live by it's rules.

Many of us understand the economic impact of this lockdown and the effect on airlines but this is complete opportunism by BA. No one will want to work for this company again if this morally bancrupt bunch of directors get their way. No one. When the economy picks up again and new airlines spring up there will be a mass exodus of highly qualified personel of all grades jumping ship. BA will be a shell of its former glory. Nice one Mt Walsh, well done.

The first airline to start recruiting will be inundated with applicants - pretty much regardless of who they are or how far they expect you to bend over.

[OMAAbound]

The first airline to start recruiting will be inundated with applicants - pretty much regardless of who they are or how far they expect you to bend over.

I’d bet good money as well, that BA will be one of the first.

‘Sign here Mr Smith, now pull down your trousers and bend over!’

OMAA

[Dannyboy39]

In a time of crisis, most employees will see the light and take some sort of sacrifice in the short term to help the business and save their own job.

Airline executives have a habit though of never returning the favour in the 'good times'. IAG have made accumulated post tax profits of over 10bn EUR since 2014, even with a cash neutral Iberia. Whilst pay and conditions remained constant or went down for everyone. Please also don't forget that this isn't 12,000 pilots - this is everyone. Engineers, dispatchers, cabin crew, back office staff. Guys who are already paid vastly inferior sums without such a powerful union and, like in many airlines, have gradually had their T&Cs regressed over time.

[wiggy]

In a time of crisis, most employees will see the light and take some sort of sacrifice in the short term to help the business and save their own job.
.

Good post...I think one big problem here has been the tone set by some of the comms from BA management - we're not daft, everybody knows there's a crisis, but approaching this right from the get go, as one department did, with an attitude of " right you lot, we've finally got you where we want you, we're finally going to get what we've wanted for years " really wasn't the smartest move...

I see at least one senior manager in one department seems to have tried to row things back a bit in the last 24 hours with (I paraphrase) claims that of course the initial letter was a hard letter to write, that the initial comms were in effect legally/template driven, but having done that can we now actually talk about negotiating nicely..

[M.Mouse]

I can’t find seem to find out if the redundancies are going to be based on seniority, as they seem to be across captains and first officers alike. Can someone shed light on this?

It is my understanding that 'Last in, first out' was succesfully challenged in some airline in recent years and can no longer be used as the sole basis for deciding who is to be made redundant.

From a common sense point of view if, for example, the B747 was to be scrapped why would a company want to make the most junior pilots on, say, the B777 fleet redundant and then go to the expense of conversion courses for all the former B747 pilots?

The world changes and LIFO was the unwritten rule for years but no longer.

[helicrazi]

So why wouldnt BA offer 2400 part time positions rather than 1200 redundancies?

Earning half of a big wage for working half of the time is better than no wage and keeps pilots current

Also gives BA the capability to ramp up quickly if demand dictates, with current pilots ready to go back to full time. Why let all those trained type rated pilots walk out the door, its madness.

I understand there an increased training burden, but in my company it was offset with rather than 50% pay cut, it was something like 52% to help with training costs, after all, it was better than being redundant.

[MrBernoulli]

I see at least one senior manager in one department seems to have tried to row things back a bit in the last 24 hours with (I paraphrase) claims that of course the initial letter was a hard letter to write, that the initial comms were in effect legally/template driven, but having done that can we now actually talk about negotiating nicely.
Only just read that communication myself. It doesn't matter what said senior manager thinks, or feels, as those above him are certainly looking for ways to wipe the Ts&Cs slate completely clean. IAG want slaves, not employees.

[Jwscud]

I see at least one senior manager in one department seems to have tried to row things back a bit in the last 24 hours with (I paraphrase) claims that of course the initial letter was a hard letter to write, that the initial comms were in effect legally/template driven, but having done that can we now actually talk about negotiating nicely..

All a bit rich given the same person signed said letter...

When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.

[cessnapete]

Without Seniority, BA state redundancies to be predicated on Company requirements, and assessment. As no sim assessment at the moment due social distancing, and presumably mass interviews not practical either. Lets hope it doesn't degenerate to , mates of the Flight Manager, favouritism etc.
Although from the comments, and his past disregard for his pilots interests, this Flight Manager AB, won't have many friends!!

[Hot 'n' High]

There is a government idea called The Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme. It involves a company accepting government (IE tax payers) money to supplement the wage bill to avoid redundancies. BA is currently part of this scheme. I don't expect this scheme to run indefinately but I do expect those companies who use it to live by it's rules.
...............

Turin, I suspect the intent of the Scheme was to preserve jobs/pay in the short-term while "lock-down" is in place but for industries to re-open and quickly go back to fairly normal pre-Covid levels. Clearly, not all industries will do so; aviation being one where most agree we have seen a huge impact which may take months/years to recover from - thats another debate. Other industries will bounce back more quickly (essential retail, etc, etc), others more slowly (discretionary retail, restaurants and bars, etc, etc - often dependent on the shape of the "lock-down" exit strategy adopted) and finally, some like aviation may be a way down the line. Others will doubtless even see an upswing in trade - divorce lawyers for one - after this is all over!!!

What is agreed by all is that changes implemented by companies which go beyond the essential changes required to meet the post-Covid marketplace (such as taking swipes at illness benefits) are cynical, opportunist, attacks on Ts & Cs. Good luck to each and every one of you - sad and shocking times.

H 'n' H

[RexBanner]

Without Seniority, BA state redundancies to be predicated on Company requirements, and assessment. As no sim assessment at the moment due social distancing, and presumably mass interviews not practical either. Lets hope it doesn't degenerate to , mates of the Flight Manager, favouritism etc.
Although from the comments, and his past disregard for his pilots interests, this Flight Manager AB, won't have many friends!!

As I’ve said and predicted before the whole process is being done exactly as per Flybe in 2013, which was also done by fleet and by seat. The assessment process will be the formulation of a matrix which will in all likelihood include weighted LIFO with other points for sickness and disciplinaries thrown in but weighted towards LIFO. It’s the easiest way to keep it all legal and I was at the wrong end of it in the past. I’m not saying that this is how it’s necessarily going to play out but this is the methodology that BA
want to use. It’s now down to Balpa to see if they can reduce the numbers involved or change that methodology but with the retraining bill for LIFO from
the MSL running into many millions it’s difficult to see how they’d get BA to budge on this.

[Smooth Airperator]

Is it possible to collapse one and then start a whole new airline just by virtue of where the employees prefer not to work? That's what these management b*stards at BA deserve right now

[hunterboy]

One may even suspect that BA’s AMP and EMG 901? Programmes have been written for just an eventuality. Let;s hope we save as many jobs as possible.

[Phantom4]

As I’ve said and predicted before the whole process is being done exactly as per Flybe in 2013, which was also done by fleet and by seat. The assessment process will be the formulation of a matrix which will in all likelihood include weighted LIFO with other points for sickness and disciplinaries thrown in but weighted towards LIFO. It’s the easiest way to keep it all legal and I was at the wrong end of it in the past. I’m not saying that this is how it’s necessarily going to play out but this is the methodology that BA
want to use. It’s now down to Balpa to see if they can reduce the numbers involved or change that methodology but with the retraining bill for LIFO from
the MSL running into many millions it’s difficult to see how they’d get BA to budge on this.
Good points Rex.
There are 100 Senior Capts in top 300 on 744 and 380 and may be within preretirement freeze.
If 744 and 380 do not return in large numbers what will they choose to do?

[RoyHudd]

FIFO might be tempting (Reverse LIFO) to the cullers. Except that the newer 787 and 350 fleets may be well-populated by seniors too. I would not bet on fair play with this lot.

Incidentally, is the man at the top of sound mind these days? It is well-known but not oft-said that this person is suffering from a progressive neurological disorder. This is of course unfortunate, but I wonder if the ranks have closed around him as they did to protect Ronald Reagan during his second term as President. He too was in decline, due to a different but equally debilitating illness.

[blimey]

From a common sense point of view if, for example, the B747 was to be scrapped why would a company want to make the most junior pilots on, say, the B777 fleet redundant and then go to the expense of conversion courses for all the former B747 pilots?

Alternatively, it would be cheaper to retrain and keep junior 747 34pp scalers rather than the more senior 777 24pp scalers.

Let's hope that can of worms doesn't need to get opened.

[Stuart Sutcliffe]

Incidentally, is the man at the top of sound mind these days? It is well-known but not oft-said that this person is suffering from a progressive neurological disorder.
Are you referring to WW or AC?

Alternatively, it would be cheaper to retrain and keep junior 747 34pp scalers rather than the more senior 777 24pp scalers.
Retraining anyone costs the same money, so no savings there, surely?

[RexBanner]

Unless there’s a general policy of no retraining. It’s certainly difficult to justify in legal terms making someone redundant from their seat and then training another pilot to take their position (bumping aka transferred redundancy is possible but it’s a minefield). Which is another reason why P&P this year and next will be FUBAR, why I’ve mentioned that I don’t know as it’s the least of anyone’s concern right now but there was the (at the time certainly not now) comedy post on yammer just a few weeks ago - just before it was suspended - of a P74L demanding to know when his P77L course was.

[ILS27LEFT]

"British Airways (BA) announced that it is to make 12,000 UK workers at the airline redundant. This is without any consultation with the UK's aviation unions. This is within the backdrop of BA parent owner IAG having secured over a billion euros in funding to save its sister airlines Aer Lingus, Iberia, Level, Vueling, and IAGcargo. None of which so far has seen anywhere near the number of redundancies announced by Alex Cruz CEO of BA. What is also interesting is that Wille Walsh, Chief Executive of IAG, has not stopped the billion euro purchase or Air Europa.

BA through its action so far has shown that it had no intentions whatsoever to stick to the principles laid out by Rishi Sunak when the chancellor launched the UK job retention scheme in April. A scheme that BA has taken full advantage of, and let's not forget, is funded exclusively by the UK taxpayer.

BA, with the consent of its parent company IAG, has actively targeted the UK and its workforce, claiming it will be making a loss in the region of £550m and that these cuts are necessary, which is a total fallacy if we are to believe the statement issued on the 30th of March.

To put this into context on the 30th of March this year IAG/BA released the following statement:

International Airlines Group (IAG) announces that British Airways has extended its US dollar secured Revolving Credit Facility for one year from 23 June 2020 to 23 June 2021. The amount available under the extended facility is $1.38 billion. Including the extended facility and some smaller additional facilities recently arranged, IAG has total undrawn general and committed aircraft financing facilities equivalent to €2.1 billion currently, compared to €1.9 billion at the end of 2019. IAG has not drawn down on any of its facilities.

Well, what does this mean to you I the UK taxpayer? It's simple really, BA actually has enough money to call on to help it through this crisis but they have chosen to use the TAX payer to fund it. As you and I, the hard-working UK taxpayer, funded BA, a corporation with billions in cash to call upon, the UK CEO Alex Cruz drew up his plans to get rid of 12000 people in the UK ONLY paying them as little as possible.

I urge you all to look a little further into this as it's plain to see that IAG also has money via loans and cash reserves and its 25% stakeholders Qatar Air who in turn is owned by the state of Qatar, which as we all know is one of the richest countries in the world.

However, having all this money to call on means nothing to Wille Walsh and Alex Cruz, they have used COVID-19 to target the UK workforce to just throw them aside, some of them having almost 50 years' experience. Alex Cruz has already made it clear that he will give the government maximums, which is as follow. The length of service is capped at 20 years. If you were made redundant on or after 6 April 2020, your weekly pay is capped at £538 and the maximum statutory redundancy pay you can get is £16,140. While you may be thinking well that's a lot of money and it is BA has been offering redundancy packages in line with earnings for the last 6 years but Willie Walsh and Alex Cruz are using this to get rid of people for as little as possible. Also please remember those that have done almost 50 years' service will be written off as cheaply as possible by a money rich corporate. I am not sure how these people can actually sleep at night.

So I am asking all of you to please sign this petition to urge the UK government to bring Willie Walsh and Alex Cruz to account immediately.

This is one of the biggest scams I have seen in my lifetime and these people need to face the UK public. Alex Cruz with the blessing of Wille Walsh have helped themselves to our hard-earned money and actively targeted our workforce over others.

Lastly, if you cant sign this for the BA staff about to lose their jobs or the Uk TAX Payer then sign it for the BA staff that have been risking their lives repatriating UK citizens without the necessary PPE equipment while BA billed the UK government millions to bring our people home"

Original link:

https://www.change.org/p/boris-johnson-ba-mass-sackings-of-its-uk-workforce-is-immoral-and-possibly-illegal-it-time-to-act?recruiter=false&utm_source=share_petition&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&utm_medium=whatsapp&recruited_by_id=98456e50-8c54-11ea-80e9-51a02b3d8ee5&utm_content=washarecopy_21897935_en-GB%3Av5

[SinBin]

In the days of bmi redundancies, ten years ago, there was a matrix in which FOs at the bottom of the MSL were to be made redundant and junior captains were demoted, I think that is legal, but different fleets and bases are a different issue. bmi was a single fleet, so a different story to BA, but nonetheless relevant as the law has changed little since then.

[hunterboy]

Incidentally, those pilots bringing this PPE back from China risking their lives as essential workers are also doing it on half salary to help the company out.

[ILS27LEFT]

BA: this announcement is the biggest mistake in your history.
The recent announcement on dismissing and then re-employing the entire BA workforce is certainly the biggest mistake in aviation's history. Dismissal with the intent to re-employ on much lower working conditions during the largest global Crisis in modern history is an act against humanity. Immoral, unethical and illegal during a furlough scheme funded by the UK gov ready to extend it if necessary. Highly greedy and inhumane. An act of war against 12K loyal employees. Governments all around the world threw the standard rules of capitalism out of the window to protect the lives of millions of people. Unprecedented. This is what governments are meant to do during an unprecedented crisis of this magnitude. BA ignored the fact that Covid19 is a global pandemic and these are exceptional times. Unacceptable. It is certainly time to seriously "grill" these sociopaths who earn millions of £ per week (if we include all perks + bonuses) with the only aim to increase their power and personal wealth. Willie Walsh & Alex Cruz will have to respond of their actions in a UK Court of Law and in front of the UK Parliament Transport committee. CEOs and Senior Leaders are meant to get paid to protect the Company they manage & represent which is made of thousands of real people. This BA management style is outdated and the power of the web will finally remove the few sociopaths still left in power on these highly paid jobs. The UK government should actually regain full control of the British National carrier if Willie Walsh and Alex Cruz will not attend the meetings with the Parliament Transport Committee. BA should belong to its employees and government together. Both shareholders.
This BA act is simply a plan to reintroduce modern slavery through zero hours' style contracts which we must stop to protect the health and well being of our future generations.
This is much more serious than just saving 12K jobs. This is about saving our future generations from modern slavery and therefore avoid a huge mental health crisis exacerbated by medieval working conditions.
Let's hope the Government will step in and regain control of BA as this is a highly critical service essential for the British economy to survive and rebound, BA is the UK national carrier and it cannot be McDonaldised by a couple of sociopaths.
The NHS should be finally safe after the recent events, now it is BA's turn to be saved from ruin. We must save our national carrier. We all need to play our part now.
The UK government is already on it. MPs are furious, understandably.

[Serenity]

Such a terrible shame to the many friends I have at BA and a company held in high regards worldwide.

unfortunately others have done it better and cheaper for many years now and CV19 represents a
chance for BA to force through what they have tried several times previously, to lower costs and T&C.

I wish everyone the best of luck, but I’d be very surprised to see WW or AC in court to defend their actions.
Having seen the indifference and been a victim to the governments lax attitude toward aviation in this country to Monarch, Thomas Cooke and Flybe to name but a few recent victims, I think it is down to Balpa and Unite to stick to their guns.
Good Luck.
Bon Voyage.

[Built4Speed2]

Such a terrible shame to the many friends I have at BA and a company held in high regards worldwide.

unfortunately others have done it better and cheaper for many years now and CV19 represents a
chance for BA to force through what they have tried several times previously, to lower costs and T&C.

I wish everyone the best of luck, but I’d be very surprised to see WW or AC in court to defend their actions.
Having seen the indifference and been a victim to the governments lax attitude toward aviation in this country to Monarch, Thomas Cooke and Flybe to name but a few recent victims, I think it is down to Balpa and Unite to stick to their guns.
Good Luck.
Bon Voyage.

serenity,

other than all being airlines do you see much similarity between BA and Monarch, Thomas Cook and FlyBe?

BA has, since IAG was born in 2011, contributed upwards of 85% total group profit of all IAG airlines (Iberia, Vueling, Aer Lingus). BA has in that time made almost €10billion in straight profit for the “group”. BA has the most efficient pilot scheduling agreement of the two other legacy airlines in the group.

IAG has Eur9.2bn of total liquidity at its disposal, around €8billion of that is from profits made by the loyal workers at BA. Others may do it “cheaper”, on a pro rata basis, but very few if any airlines have created as much wealth for their owners as the employees for BA. Yet here is where the axe will fall, whilst other airlines in the group, who contribute a relative pittance, get state aid and remain intact, the highly profitable people at BA will have their lives permanently ruined (those that remain as well as those made redundant).

Welcome to Capitalism 2.0. Spawn from a global health pandemic, I hope the creators are remembered for all time alongside Hitler, Stalin, Mao and co.

[FightFireWithFire]

Yet here is where the axe will fall, whilst other airlines in the group, who contribute a relative pittance, get state aid and remain intact, the highly profitable people at BA will have their lives permanently ruined (those that remain as well as those made redundancy).


If that makes you feel better, you are going to see the axe falling on Vueling and Iberia's employees very soon. The "highly profitable people at BA" (as if the profits or losses of a company depend on its pilots and cabin crews) won't be alone for long,don't worry
​​​

[blind pew]

Dan Air acquisition.
Remember that Balpa went along with BA disregarding seniority when Dan Air was “rescued” taking on junior pilots on the airbus in preference to Dan Air seniority list.

[seniortarget2]

Yet here is where the axe will fall, whilst other airlines in the group, who contribute a relative pittance, get state aid and remain intact, the highly profitable people at BA will have their lives permanently ruined (those that remain as well as those made redundant).

The airline I used to work for (before they went into administration) had nothing but hard working and dedicated staff on the ground and in the air, sadly an airlines performance has very little to do with how “profitable” it’s staff are and much more to do with other factors.