IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs

[Potatos_69]

Good morning everyone.

does anyone have an update on what is going on at BA moving into summer ?

[TURIN]

Increased flights to Portugal.... Not much else.

[Vnav confused]

Definitely a change afoot for July, shorthaul bid packs published at the moment have full lines of work and a CAP of 100. Busy by any standard.
Admittedly there may still be some furlough diluting the operation but almost all destinations seem to be in play.

[FlipFlapFlop]

Shapps has made his intentions quite clear today.......he genuinely hates us.

[Potatos_69]

How are things going through summer and now into the tail end with winter coming up?

[balpalover69]

Any news as to when your colleagues that were voted out of the company are looking to return?

[HEJT2015]

Any news as to when your colleagues that were voted out of the company are looking to return?

Not soon enough :)

[White Van Driver]

Any news as to when your colleagues that were voted out of the company are looking to return?

I have heard the CRS pool should be empty around Sept 2022. From then I would expect the remaining PRP pilots (those who didn’t take the LGW offering, or move on past BA) to begin to be brought back into the fold over the following 6 months or so.

How do you feel “voted out”? Do you believe you would have kept your job if the July 2020 ballot result was No? Genuine question.

[balpalover69]

I have heard the CRS pool should be empty around Sept 2022. From then I would expect the remaining PRP pilots (those who didn’t take the LGW offering, or move on past BA) to begin to be brought back into the fold over the following 6 months or so.

How do you feel “voted out”? Do you believe you would have kept your job if the July 2020 ballot result was No? Genuine question.

Good, only 9 months to a year until we can start earning above minimum wage and for the most part, begin to lay off the 100’s of thousands of pounds worth of loans. I would imagine this would reduce the stress for the majority.

I’d suggest it’s probably the vote… whereby pilots were voted out of the company to protect T&C’s of the senior pilots.

I would imagine so. 250 odd out of 4500 odd. 1 out of every 5, 20% chance, rather than the 100% chance of redundancy I was given. Considering most of the junior pilots are ‘cheaper’ and not on the jumbo (the redundant fleet) I’d have fancied my chances.

What do I know though. I’m a worthless MSL bottom feeder…

[White Van Driver]

Good, only 9 months to a year until we can start earning above minimum wage and for the most part, begin to lay off the 100’s of thousands of pounds worth of loans. I would imagine this would reduce the stress for the majority.

I’d suggest it’s probably the vote… whereby pilots were voted out of the company to protect T&C’s of the senior pilots.

I would imagine so. 250 odd out of 4500 odd. 1 out of every 5, 20% chance, rather than the 100% chance of redundancy I was given. Considering most of the junior pilots are ‘cheaper’ and not on the jumbo (the redundant fleet) I’d have fancied my chances.

What do I know though. I’m a worthless MSL bottom feeder…

As I understand pilot T&Cs were never on the table. We weren’t choosing between saving jobs and keeping senior pay scales. The company made it very clear it was about the headcount, not about the paycheque size. There was no mention of firing the pilots in reverse seniority, and even I wouldn’t have supported that (not exactly senior myself, north of 4000MSL).

Don’t forget BA’s opener was 1255 jobs, which while never discussed in detail, I would have imagined to include all of 747, LGW fleets plus chopping a large % off the bottom of both LHS and RHS of 777, 380 and Airbus. This would have forced the line much further up the MSL than the point at which it finally rested, plus included hundreds more from further up. (I did the numbers at the time and any way you cut it, the line went way further up from the bottom of the MSL)

I’m no BALPA fanboy, but I do think they did a solid job saving as many as they could under very trying circumstances. My only regret is that they couldn’t make the size of the CRS 550, which I believe the pilot body would have done in a heartbeat.

Evidently we see things pretty differently. I hope you and the rest of the PRP are welcomed back as quick as possible.

[Max Angle]

Unfortunately certain managers with an axe to grind with the pilots made it quite clear from the outset of negotiations that zero headcount loss was not an option. I am also no particular fan of BALPA but they probably got the best out of a pretty grim situation.

[balpalover69]

As I understand pilot T&Cs were never on the table. We weren’t choosing between saving jobs and keeping senior pay scales. The company made it very clear it was about the headcount, not about the paycheque size. There was no mention of firing the pilots in reverse seniority, and even I wouldn’t have supported that (not exactly senior myself, north of 4000MSL).

Don’t forget BA’s opener was 1255 jobs, which while never discussed in detail, I would have imagined to include all of 747, LGW fleets plus chopping a large % off the bottom of both LHS and RHS of 777, 380 and Airbus. This would have forced the line much further up the MSL than the point at which it finally rested, plus included hundreds more from further up. (I did the numbers at the time and any way you cut it, the line went way further up from the bottom of the MSL)

I’m no BALPA fanboy, but I do think they did a solid job saving as many as they could under very trying circumstances. My only regret is that they couldn’t make the size of the CRS 550, which I believe the pilot body would have done in a heartbeat.

Evidently we see things pretty differently. I hope you and the rest of the PRP are welcomed back as quick as possible.

Whilst I respect your opinion, do you really think BA were planning on chopping 1255? Considering the size of operation being run now. I can't really see them going for that giving consideration to training capacity.

I personally think if BA sat down and said for example, 'one from the top for every one from the bottom' that balpa would have managed. Removing the cheapest labour is never a sustainable cost saving measure. Perhaps a political statement for the strikes, that the majority of the 250 redundant weren't even in the company when they took place? Maybe.

I personally don't see the corruption regarding certain members of the BACC as a 'solid job' but, what do I know. I wasn't a part of the negotiation.

Not as much as me. 18 months with a flight school loan and no meaningful employment (for a lot of us) has been difficult.

[BAreject]

I’m no BALPA fanboy, but I do think they did a solid job saving as many as they could under very trying circumstances

Oh they sure did a SOLIDLY excellent job. Especially if you're in the CRS receiving £80K - £100k a year for doing sweet FA. I'm not so sure the 249 redundant brigade would agree, mind.

BACC hammered the first nail in their own coffin with this ridiculous plan. None of the returning pilots with any self respect will sign up again and I'm sure that any new future pilots recruited will realise that the BACC will do nothing constructive for them - not in the early years anyway.

That said, I'm hearing Management are finally starting to put an end to this absolute nonsense that is the CRS.

[White Van Driver]

Oh they sure did a SOLIDLY excellent job. Especially if you're in the CRS receiving £80K - £100k a year for doing sweet FA. I'm not so sure the 249 redundant brigade would agree, mind.

would you prefer those pilots to have also been made redundant?

[BAreject]

would you prefer those pilots to have also been made redundant?

There you have it. A typical BA pilot response. What I WOULD have preferred, is for NOBODY to have been made redundant. I would have liked a bit of what the CRS got maybe?

[kendrick47247]

would you prefer those pilots to have also been made redundant?

What a stupid response 🤦 it isn’t one or the other. There were fairer ways for this all to have played out (that definitely didn’t include those at the top banking huge sums for doing… nothing!)

[hunterboy]

I think someone may have a shock coming if/when they (re)join BA and realise what a bunch of shysters they’re working for. I’d be interested to hear their opinions in a few years. My advice , (take it or leave it), is to realise what you have to look forward to if you want a career in UK aviation post Brexit. I’d consider myself lucky to have had a glimpse of the future with enough time and youth to do something about it. If you want to have a career in BA, maybe consider standing for election as a rep so that you can influence events come the next downturn. Alternatively, start brushing up those IT and programming skills and get yourself in a job that will pay well and never experience the kind of ups and downs that aviation suffers periodically.
Either way, good luck.

[balpalover69]

I think someone may have a shock coming if/when they (re)join BA and realise what a bunch of shysters they’re working for. I’d be interested to hear their opinions in a few years. My advice , (take it or leave it), is to realise what you have to look forward to if you want a career in UK aviation post Brexit. I’d consider myself lucky to have had a glimpse of the future with enough time and youth to do something about it. If you want to have a career in BA, maybe consider standing for election as a rep so that you can influence events come the next downturn. Alternatively, start brushing up those IT and programming skills and get yourself in a job that will pay well and never experience the kind of ups and downs that aviation suffers periodically.
Either way, good luck.

The assumption is that all that were made redundant are twenty-something year old's that can just 'brush up' on some 'coding skills' and find another job? and not any that have a mortgage or family to provide for? The delusion among some of the members here is incredible. If it's that easy and we only need to 'brush-up' why can't the senior do such in the same manner, rather than just the junior?

[hunterboy]

Oh dear …. Please don’t come back on PPrune complaining BA isn’t what you thought it would be in a few years. It is what it is. As are your colleagues . Just get on with it and realise the world doesn’t owe you a living. As I keep telling my kids , life ain’t fair. Best to crack on with it. As I mentioned in a previous post, take or leave my (well meant) advice.
If I had my time again, with the benefit of hindsight, etc, I would have gone into IT or finance . In BA and U.K. airlines you will earn every penny. Sadly , with the weak U.K. employment protections, you will always be regarded as a cost to be cut and the first out of the door come the next downturn. Do you want to work for an airline that does that via LIFO or one that gets rid of the longer serving ? The choice is yours. I’m sure there is an airline out there that does it differently ?

[balpalover69]

Oh dear …. Please don’t come back on PPrune complaining BA isn’t what you thought it would be in a few years. It is what it is. As are your colleagues . Just get on with it and realise the world doesn’t owe you a living. As I keep telling my kids , life ain’t fair. Best to crack on with it. As I mentioned in a previous post, take or leave my (well meant) advice.
If I had my time again, with the benefit of hindsight, etc, I would have gone into IT or finance . In BA and U.K. airlines you will earn every penny. Sadly , with the weak U.K. employment protections, you will always be regarded as a cost to be cut and the first out of the door come the next downturn. Do you want to work for an airline that does that via LIFO or one that gets rid of the longer serving ? The choice is yours. I’m sure there is an airline out there that does it differently ?


This whole post absoloutely stinks of entitlement. What do you mean take your advice? Do you not understand the investment that most of your 'colleagues' undertook to become a pilot? You say in hidsight you would have gone into IT or finance, well surely you would have taken VR and 'brushed up' on your own programming (or investment banking) skills, and saved a seat for someone who's ability to 'brush-up' is inferior to yours?

What about an airline who gets rid based on training failures and personal conduct (we know there's enough of those characters out there) rather than based on who was unlucky enough to join at a certain point, or lucky enough to be in a seat in a certain 'efficient' aircraft?

[BAreject]

If I had my time again, with the benefit of hindsight, etc, I would have gone into IT or finance .

Of course you would, old bean. Why don't you do that now, if it's such a hard graft at BA? You've been taught how to be resilient surely? Let me guess though, you live in lala land and have no idea how the real world works. Let me tell you, it's a scary place out there.

Anyway, I think you'll find junior gripes lie with BACC , not BA. BA didn't orchestrate the downfall of the 249.

[DS1]

Of course you would, old bean. Why don't you do that now, if it's such a hard graft at BA? You've been taught how to be resilient surely? Let me guess though, you live in lala land and have no idea how the real world works. Let me tell you, it's a scary place out there.

Anyway, I think you'll find junior gripes lie with BACC , not BA. BA didn't orchestrate the downfall of the 249.

Well said. Some are struggling but will be happy to return to their passion for flying but there will be a visible divide for some in more ways than one.

[3Greens]

Of course you would, old bean. Why don't you do that now, if it's such a hard graft at BA? You've been taught how to be resilient surely? Let me guess though, you live in lala land and have no idea how the real world works. Let me tell you, it's a scary place out there.

Anyway, I think you'll find junior gripes lie with BACC , not BA. BA didn't orchestrate the downfall of the 249.
well, apart from the fact BA would have shut half of Gatwick and all of the 747 fleet. Pretty sure that would have swept up a lot of that 249 anyway, and a lot more on top. Listen, it’s **** that redundancies couldn’t be avoided. I’d have happily paid more to save everyone and I’m sure so would everyone else. Unfortunately for the 249 it’s a seniority airline for everything; I know you don’t want to hear it but I’m going to say it anyway and if you choose to rejoin then you will be bloody glad when the time comes again to negotiate an s188 that you’ve got a god few years in. This was my 3rd S188 in BA in 23 years; the first one was September 11th and I thought I was out of the door so I know how awful it feels. Thankfully we managed to avoid any CR then; but COVID has been ona scale never seen before.
hopefully bluer skies ahead for all

[hunterboy]

hopefully bluer skies ahead for all
Can’t really add any more to that sentiment!

[vin2001]

Hearing rumours that the CRS is all coursed and there may be external recruitment before the start of summer for early autumn courses - can anyone at BA or in the PRP confirm?

[Alrosa]

Are the CRS and PRP pools already drained ? I’d be surprised. Genuine question.

[HEJT2015]

Love the optimism, but I can clarify that will not be the case. CRS looking likely to be empty by the end of May with the PRP next in line to be drained. Please don’t forget that after than there’s another hold pool ‘PHP’ of those pilots and cadets who signed contracts that never started.

So recruitment for those ‘new-external’ DEPs is not just around the corner. Sorry.

I wish it was, that way I’d get my job back sooner!

[vin2001]

What I meant was, they've exhausted all internal moves and the CRS and will begin to look to PRP and PHP, which are still external, come June July time. Not implying that there will be any 'proper' external recruitment for a while yet. I believe PRP is 130 through out of 270..... and that's for this New Gatport Wick outfit.

[eagle21]

It is interesting to note that no other IAG airline made any compulsory pilot redundancies during covid. BA did and now they are having to wet lease…

[HEJT2015]

What I meant was, they've exhausted all internal moves and the CRS and will begin to look to PRP and PHP, which are still external, come June July time. Not implying that there will be any 'proper' external recruitment for a while yet. I believe PRP is 130 through out of 270..... and that's for this New Gatport Wick outfit.

Apologies, I must have misunderstood what you meant. I’m with you now and yes I believe that to be the case - it just depends on how many vacancies are left over once the CRS are absorbed into the summer 2022 fleet plan. Euroflyer required around 110 from the PRP, mainly FOs but some commands. We don’t get told the specific numbers sadly.

[AIMINGHIGH123]

My bet is end of this year they will open up. I know 6 guys still waiting to go back to BA. Not far away but they say not before June for sure.

See how summer goes then open up September-ish to get externals started possibly next year.

This is all IMO and guess work.

Of course we are still not fully out of the woods yet, everyone treading carefully it seems.

[Plastic787]

I suspect there will be hell to pay amongst the SH FO community (prospectively around 40% at least of the pilots on the bus will have valid bids for LH this year) if the inevitable happens and PRP and external recruitment begins to slide back into those vacant LH seats. Any LH vacancies should be coursed with those internal bidders with valid bids. We all know the “2 course argument” will come into play as a means to justify it but why does this rule set only seem to be applicable to Airbus FOs? If that’s such a big deal then surely BA should be recruiting DEC to LH as well as that’s more cost efficient than running two courses…. But we all know DEC LH is a non starter with the BACC. Shame they wont protect the career aspirations of their own pilots on the more junior side of the coin though. I see mass resignations from BALPA from SH FOs shortly on the horizon.

[EGKK.]

Is there anywhere to see the T&C’s of the new gatwick start up?

how does it to compare to BA main and EasyJet?

it’s the best kept secret in aviation…why has it not been fully disclosed…

it would be great if someone could shed some light.

[BAreject]

Shame they wont protect the career aspirations of their own pilots on the more junior side of the coin though. I see mass resignations from BALPA from SH FOs shortly on the horizon

You sound surprised. In case you were sleeping under a rock in 2020 whilst 249 were laid off, It should come as NO surprise to you that the BACC has very little interest in the aspirations of junior pilots. They won't give a t*ss about your threats of mass membership resignations. What's needed is fundamental change.

[Plastic787]

You sound surprised. In case you were sleeping under a rock in 2020 whilst 249 were laid off, It should come as NO surprise to you that the BACC has very little interest in the aspirations of junior pilots. They won't give a t*ss about your threats of mass membership resignations. What's needed is fundamental change.

No I wasn’t sleeping under a rock I was having difficulty sleeping as I was at risk myself but thanks for your needless condescension. Whilst I have every sympathy for those made redundant (and without going into the interminable discussion of the rights and wrongs of it) the fact remains that redundancy based on LIFO was no secret pertaining to employment with BA and in fact formed part of the Memorandum of Agreement attached to the contract that presumably you read before signing (how’s that for condescending?). The fact that Balpa tried their best to uphold contractual terms should not have come as a shock to you. What I was referring to was something quite different. I also clearly want to see everybody from the PRP and PHP back in a seat as soon as possible however they should not be leapfrogging the career aspirations of those senior internal bidders with valid bids. If these people are allowed to move as they should then vacancies will be created as part of that process, pilots remaining on the P32L status list will benefit from increasing relative seniority instead of stagnating and opportunities will still exist to bring the PRP & PHP pilots rightfully back into the fold.

[HEJT2015]

I also clearly want to see everybody from the PRP and PHP back in a seat as soon as possible however they should not be leapfrogging the career aspirations of those senior internal bidders with valid bids. If these people are allowed to move as they should then vacancies will be created as part of that process and opportunities will still exist to bring the PRP & PHP pilots rightfully back into the fold.

Sounds a lot more expensive to a company, or is the BACC going to fund this one too?

Plus, you’d be surprised at the number of former LH FO’s in the PRP.

[balpalover69]

No I wasn’t sleeping under a rock I was having difficulty sleeping as I was at risk myself but thanks for your needless condescension. Whilst I have every sympathy for those made redundant (and without going into the interminable discussion of the rights and wrongs of it) the fact remains that redundancy based on LIFO was no secret pertaining to employment with BA and in fact formed part of the Memorandum of Agreement attached to the contract that presumably you read before signing (how’s that for condescending?). The fact that Balpa tried their best to uphold contractual terms should not have come as a shock to you. What I was referring to was something quite different. I also clearly want to see everybody from the PRP and PHP back in a seat as soon as possible however they should not be leapfrogging the career aspirations of those senior internal bidders with valid bids. If these people are allowed to move as they should then vacancies will be created as part of that process, pilots remaining on the P32L status list will benefit from increasing relative seniority instead of stagnating and opportunities will still exist to bring the PRP & PHP pilots rightfully back into the fold.


MOA isn’t available with the contract FYI. I was only able to view it after joining, on docunet. Regardless I didn’t read anywhere being on a plastic plane makes you invulnerable from redundancy either…

If you’re on the 787 it seems a bit of a cheek to quote the MOA to your colleagues that were made redundant.

[balpalover69]

I’m not on the 787, presumably you missed the part about being stressed due to being at risk. I refuse to believe the vast vast majority of new joiners wouldn’t have had any contacts in BA who they could have asked before joining to send a copy of the MOA. That’s what I did. The whole argument on the MOA is a red herring anyway it was a fact out in the open that BA chopped from the bottom up. I for what it’s worth would have had no issue with being made redundant this way, it’s what I signed up to.

As for the comments about there being LH pilots in the PRP, so what? They’re not in the seat anymore (very sadly for those concerned) and should not be jumping the seniority queue. No displacement only refers to pilots in situ in the seat. Not to now external pilots.

Dave A has already communicated that the only agreement existing in coursing PRP Pilots relates to their seniority rather than the type ratings they previously held. Now of course I know full well what is going to happen but if you were senior on the A320 in the RHS (or even junior hoping for better treatment by JSS) you’d have a very different view on this issue and trying to argue otherwise is pointless. Do you really care about saving BA money? Or is that just a convenient excuse for you to justify something that shouldn’t be happening? I hope for most that’s rhetorical.

I presumed you meant at risk due to being junior and on the 787 (before the ‘high efficiency’ rule came out but fire the cheap shot at me, for sure.


I mean, that’s a bold assumption. I joined BA not knowing anyone there and hadn’t hear that redundancy was sorted by age/seniority, not much difference (and select fleets)

You don’t need to talk to me like a fool, I feel foolish enough leaving a safe job that made no redundancies for what I thought was a safer gig at a decent outfit.

[Plastic787]

I think we’re at cross purposes to be honest. My comments regarding being aware that BA chopped from the bottom were primarily directed at those above who feel visceral bitterness at the BACC for negotiating them out of a job. I understand the bitterness at losing the job I really do, I’ve been there and bought the T Shirt (admittedly in a situation not remotely as bad as Covid), but the bitterness and anger should not be directed at the BACC it should be directed at the government (and not just ours) for abandoning almost every part of the pre-existing pandemic management strategies and ignoring the WHO’s existing advice on pandemic management by imposing absolutely useless and ineffective populist travel bans.

I do not mean to talk to you like a fool, I’m just trying to point out that (the theory of) seniority being the major part of how BA operates has never been a secret and it’s partly why I’m so cheesed off about out of seniority long haul moves because I think I must have made a very similar move to you (if not the same one if you came from easy) and accepted the soonest possible start date on the advice of many in BA who told me “seniority is everything” only to then find out that wasn’t quite true if you populated the RHS of the minibus (ie bend over and be shafted as you watch every other bugger (including two people from the same place as you with the sum total of 1000 Jet hours between them) leapfrog you to the only reason why you joined BA in the first place: Long Haul).

Now we’re about to see people who’ve jumped the seniority queue not just once but been made redundant then jumped it again on their way back in all whilst there’s a couple of hundred Airbus FOs with valid bids who’ve patiently waited their turn for over 6-7+ years looking on aghast at this (most not as vocal as me but feeling the exact same underneath) whilst being patronisingly told “remember how we told you seniority was everything in BA? Ah well actually its two courses to replace you, so you’re stuck where you are, suck it up.”

I feel your pain, I really do. As I said I had exactly the same dice as you and rolled them the same and could very easily have been in your position had Covid hit 4/5 years earlier. Just pure luck. As people have said before we’re far from out of the woods as it stands so it’s a bit premature of myself to be moaning about out of seniority moves, I am grateful to be still gainfully employed even if it does seem my attention has been shifted elsewhere.

[balpalover69]

I think we’re at cross purposes to be honest. My comments regarding being aware that BA chopped from the bottom were primarily directed at those above who feel visceral bitterness at the BACC for negotiating them out of a job. I understand the bitterness at losing the job I really do, I’ve been there and bought the T Shirt (admittedly in a situation not remotely as bad as Covid), but the bitterness and anger should not be directed at the BACC it should be directed at the government (and not just ours) for abandoning almost every part of the pre-existing pandemic management strategies and ignoring the WHO’s existing advice on pandemic management by imposing absolutely useless and ineffective populist travel bans.

I do not mean to talk to you like a fool, I’m just trying to point out that (the theory of) seniority being the major part of how BA operates has never been a secret and it’s partly why I’m so cheesed off about out of seniority long haul moves because I think I must have made a very similar move to you (if not the same one if you came from easy) and accepted the soonest possible start date on the advice of many in BA who told me “seniority is everything” only to then find out that wasn’t quite true if you populated the RHS of the minibus (ie bend over and be shafted as you watch every other bugger (including two people from the same place as you with the sum total of 1000 Jet hours between them) leapfrog you to the only reason why you joined BA in the first place: Long Haul).

Now we’re about to see people who’ve jumped the seniority queue not just once but been made redundant then jumped it again on their way back in all whilst there’s a couple of hundred Airbus FOs with valid bids who’ve patiently waited their turn for over 6-7+ years looking on aghast at this (most not as vocal as me but feeling the exact same underneath) whilst being patronisingly told “remember how we told you seniority was everything in BA? Ah well actually its two courses to replace you, so you’re stuck where you are, suck it up.”

I feel your pain, I really do. As I said I had exactly the same dice as you and rolled them the same and could very easily have been in your position had Covid hit 4/5 years earlier. Just pure luck. As people have said before we’re far from out of the woods as it stands so it’s a bit premature of myself to be moaning about out of seniority moves, I am grateful to be still gainfully employed even if it does seem my attention has been shifted elsewhere.

I mean I feel bitter at the utter nepotism and lack of integrity from the BACC. As I said. I left a firm that made 0 redundancy (not easy but similar) thinking that this was going to be a safe job. Even going back, I know that when it comes to it. I’m the 1st to be thrown under the bus (again)….

I mean I’m struggling to sympathise with the ‘I dodged redundancy by a few places, now I want the seat I want, potentially at the disadvantage to my (ex) colleagues who in a lot of cases haven’t earned any money (or very little) in the last 2 years.

Some of us who are at the top of the PRP now face a new 7 (or8) year freeze before looking at long haul if we return on the a320, delaying a long haul move 10 years from where it was expected. So as I said, I wouldn’t come here seeking sympathy.

[Chief Willy]

I mean I feel bitter at the utter nepotism and lack of integrity from the BACC. As I said. I left a firm that made 0 redundancy (not easy but similar) thinking that this was going to be a safe job. Even going back, I know that when it comes to it. I’m the 1st to be thrown under the bus (again)….

I mean I’m struggling to sympathise with the ‘I dodged redundancy by a few places, now I want the seat I want, potentially at the disadvantage to my (ex) colleagues who in a lot of cases haven’t earned any money (or very little) in the last 2 years.

Some of us who are at the top of the PRP now face a new 7 (or8) year freeze before looking at long haul if we return on the a320, delaying a long haul move 10 years from where it was expected. So as I said, I wouldn’t come here seeking sympathy.

Whilst I have the utmost of sympathy for you: That’s BA. You know the deal now. It’s rubbish if you are junior. The way you were turfed out was deeply unpleasant. But at the end of the day it is a seniority based airline, get used to it and stop trying to change it.

In all likelihood the other airlines will probably start recruiting about the same time BA do from the PRP into mainline so you hopefully will have a choice with where to go. I genuinely hope and pray these opportunities are only a few months away for everyone in your dreadful situation.

As for the comments about 320 FO stagnation etc I gather “normal” PnP rules and processes will start again later this year, no more “leapfrogging”. I think anyone in the 320 RHS can forget about getting on the 787 though as due to the way redundancy was handled in 2020 I expect there to be an exodus of senior pilots from the “at risk” 777 and 380 fleets onto the “safe” 787 and 350 fleets first, but this should open up positions on the 777 and 380 fleets for those 320 pilots who are happy with the risks of going on those 2 older fleets. The 350 will probably drop a bit more junior though as its an Airbus and I cant see too many 777 pilots wanting to slide over to that fleet.

Bon chance all and I hope by this time next year the PRP and PHP will have all had the opportunity to rejoin BA again.

[thetimesreader84]

Further up the thread someone mentioned mass resignations from BALPA members, well if rumours are true its happening. So much so they had to have a hearts & minds zoom call with remaining P32L members.

I didn't watch it (I wasn't invited) but from what I've heard it can be summed up as "you're behind CRS, then probably PRP (we haven't decided but BA hold the purse strings & won't pay for two courses) so you won't be going anywhere for 5-7 years, oh and we can't do anything to help your lifestyle beyond tinkering with JSS, please don't cancel your subs".

And for those talking about MoA, and redundancy, in my opinion it stopped applying when people on the 787 who didn't even have their uniform were saved in preference to junior 320 mates.

BA call the shots, balpa try to find a way to sell it to their (increasingly senior, LH) members.

[Chief Willy]

... which smacks of, let's say, excluding women from men only clubs because that's how it always was in the past, so it shouldn't be changed.

Seniority is borderline, if not outright illegal (especially the open ended way in which BA implements it).


What makes you think that it is illegal? There is nothing more predictable in BA than the latest batch of DEPs moaning about seniority, to only a few years later (with a bit of seniority) later changing tack and supporting seniority. If you don’t like it or understand it, please go to another airline.

[Time Traveller]

BALPA know it already - sotto voce, they admit as much.

[Plastic787]

Point of order. Seniority is not illegal as a method of determining redundancies however it must not be used as the sole factor. There’s a big difference. Hence how the redundancies were carried out perfectly legally. I said this was a discussion I didn’t want to get into and yet I have. I’ve lost the best job I will ever have in aviation through redundancy determined by seniority. Didn’t argue it, because redundancy is awful no matter how it is selected. The methodology in place will always be arguable, seniority however is as transparent as it gets and was part of the small print when I bought the ticket.

[Plastic787]

Edit - and BA is a very very long way from the best job in aviation

That certainly wasn’t a reference to BA.

[AIMINGHIGH123]

What makes you think that it is illegal? There is nothing more predictable in BA than the latest batch of DEPs moaning about seniority, to only a few years later (with a bit of seniority) later changing tack and supporting seniority. If you don’t like it or understand it, please go to another airline.

I will state I am not at BA however seniority is ideal for them as it keeps salaries down.

Banking used to be very much do your time to earn the big salaries etc. That all changed 20-30 years ago people very rarely stay with one financial institution as they get head hunted and often double there salaries in the process.

Now I know we have many many low hour cadets to fill the RHS and yes the industry gets hit by the smallest thing but experience has always been an issue. BA have created the perfect environment for people to stay get comfortable and a lovely roster after 15+ years so they are going nowhere. If these people were to suddenly start leaving BA would be screwed. It’s not just BA of course but every airline that has seniority. If seniority wasn’t around and people were happy to chop and change taking that experience with them there’s only one way to stop that happening £££££££.

Yes you can have some sort of loyalty but IMO having the ability to go from one airline to another and maintain your rank and current salary would push airlines to offer better packages.

[Chief Willy]

I will state I am not at BA however seniority is ideal for them as it keeps salaries down.

Banking used to be very much do your time to earn the big salaries etc. That all changed 20-30 years ago people very rarely stay with one financial institution as they get head hunted and often double there salaries in the process.

Now I know we have many many low hour cadets to fill the RHS and yes the industry gets hit by the smallest thing but experience has always been an issue. BA have created the perfect environment for people to stay get comfortable and a lovely roster after 15+ years so they are going nowhere. If these people were to suddenly start leaving BA would be screwed. It’s not just BA of course but every airline that has seniority. If seniority wasn’t around and people were happy to chop and change taking that experience with them there’s only one way to stop that happening £££££££.

Yes you can have some sort of loyalty but IMO having the ability to go from one airline to another and maintain your rank and current salary would push airlines to offer better packages.

I actually agree with a lot of that, seniority systems help to suppress wages for sure. Your seniority number has a £ value at the end of the day. But the issue now is how would you introduce a new system now into an airline like BA without there being many “losers” in the fallout? Also there is the added issue of job (in)security. Who in their right mind would bid for a 777/380/LGW command in a non-seniority system knowing in the very next downturn their job is toast? Seniority has major flaws but also brings with it some element of security. Sadly that means those at the bottom of the list in this, the biggest of all industry downturns ever, have had some dreadfully s****y bad luck and an unimaginably awful couple of years. There’s no perfect system and no nice way to deal with downturns/redundancies at the end of the day.

[AIMINGHIGH123]

I actually agree with a lot of that, seniority systems help to suppress wages for sure. Your seniority number has a £ value at the end of the day. But the issue now is how would you introduce a new system now into an airline like BA without there being many “losers” in the fallout? Also there is the added issue of job (in)security. Who in their right mind would bid for a 777/380/LGW command in a non-seniority system knowing in the very next downturn their job is toast? Seniority has major flaws but also brings with it some element of security. Sadly that means those at the bottom of the list in this, the biggest of all industry downturns ever, have had some dreadfully s****y bad luck and an unimaginably awful couple of years. There’s no perfect system and no nice way to deal with downturns/redundancies at the end of the day.


Well exactly. To introduce a new system would either have to be short dramatic and painful or overtime and painful.

Should redundancies be done by performance? How do you measure that. What ever method is used pros and cons can be attached. No seniority with everyone’s head on the block can mean the bad eggs get removed.

What ever method is chosen people will suffer, it’s horrible.

Like you have said no perfect system is out there. Seniority does have benefits and in a situation like COVID last in first out can seem fair. BA didn’t really do that for COVID though did they. I know a few guys personally who got the ****ty end of the stick, despite seeing peeps joining over 12 months after them but on to the “protected” fleet. BA made a mess of that one IMO and it’s going to be sore for a while.

[3Greens]

I will state I am not at BA however seniority is ideal for them as it keeps salaries down.

Banking used to be very much do your time to earn the big salaries etc. That all changed 20-30 years ago people very rarely stay with one financial institution as they get head hunted and often double there salaries in the process.

Now I know we have many many low hour cadets to fill the RHS and yes the industry gets hit by the smallest thing but experience has always been an issue. BA have created the perfect environment for people to stay get comfortable and a lovely roster after 15+ years so they are going nowhere. If these people were to suddenly start leaving BA would be screwed. It’s not just BA of course but every airline that has seniority. If seniority wasn’t around and people were happy to chop and change taking that experience with them there’s only one way to stop that happening £££££££.

Yes you can have some sort of loyalty but IMO having the ability to go from one airline to another and maintain your rank and current salary would push airlines to offer better packages.
so why didn’t this work for all the non Seniority airlines out there? Afaik in the U.K., only Virgin and BA are legacy seniority airlines; why isn’t your hypothesis playing out between wizz Ryan and easy?

[balpalover69]

so why didn’t this work for all the non Seniority airlines out there? Afaik in the U.K., only Virgin and BA are legacy seniority airlines; why isn’t your hypothesis playing out between wizz Ryan and easy?

Pre covid BA was a £20k type rating with a circa 25k salary for cadets (correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe the figures are round about here) and Ryanair was sponsoring type ratings (€5K to the applicant) and paying around £50k upwards for UK bases for FO’s (albeit on completion of 500h flying)


This is before you consider any cadets that joined BA during the last 4 years are actually being paid £0 now.

[MonarchOrBust]

I'm pretty sure the cadet salary was 28k back in the year 2000!

[Whitemonk Returns]

Jobs in the UK I would take before going to BA...

TUI, Virgin, Jet2, Easy and... Ryanair. Many of them will start recruiting in the next few months.
Theres probably a few more I'm forgetting

[Plastic787]

due to the way redundancy was handled in 2020 I expect there to be an exodus of senior pilots from the “at risk” 777 and 380 fleets onto the “safe” 787 and 350 fleets first, but this should open up positions on the 777 and 380 fleets for those 320 pilots who are happy with the risks of going on those 2 older fleets.

A lot of the more senior pilots from the 747 and A380 fleets got moves to other fleets so I don’t see why it’s a necessity that they bail now from the 777 and A380. Ultimately no one with the required seniority to avoid the chop from the jumbo lost their job (there were huge negative financial impacts I grant you but no redundancy) so the proof will be in the pudding but if there is some impact I suspect that to be fairly short lived. The thing that really did for the jumbo guys and girls was that they had nowhere to go in short order, it was long course everywhere they looked. God forbid the same situation occurred in a couple of years time the A380 pilots can CCQ onto the A350 or even the A320 in a pinch. The 777 pilots have the 787 on their Type Ratings so that’s another short course. I would argue the case that the 777 really is another at risk fleet, some of the 300s are amongst the newest aircraft in the airline - is the only aircraft after the A380 with any significant capacity - and the 777-9 (providing certification issues resolved and the small matter of paying for them) is arriving in 2024/25. To me the only fleet that looks dodgy is the A380 and that’s on nowhere near the scale of the 747 due to the short course situation.

[TheAirMission]

Ultimately no one from the jumbo lost their job (there were huge negative financial impacts I grant you but no redundancy) so the proof will be in the pudding but if there is some impact I suspect that to be fairly short lived. You're joking, right? Lots of 747 junior First Officers lost their jobs through redundancy, the fact they were on the Jumbo was just a coincidence, their seniority number was in the chop.

[Alrosa]

Jobs in the UK I would take before going to BA...

TUI, Virgin, Jet2, Easy and... Ryanair. Many of them will start recruiting in the next few months.
Theres probably a few more I'm forgetting

That’s fair enough, but let’s also agree that this is a subjective discussion, and dependent on the individual and what they want out of flying.

I suspect when BA start recruiting externals (outside current pools) some people will still be interested. Admittedly that could be some way off, but I’m just making a point !

[BAreject]

Now we’re about to see people who’ve jumped the seniority queue not just once but been made redundant then jumped it again on their way back in all whilst there’s a couple of hundred Airbus FOs with valid bids who’ve patiently waited their turn for over 6-7+ years

Nothing would give me greater satisfaction than to see this happen. The sense of entitlement is simply astonishing.

All this talk about redundancies is tosh. No redundancies were ever needed. The whole thing was a farce. You can bang on about this all day long but the fact is, 249 junior (non 787/350/ex cityflyer/destined for 787 but currently without course date....) members were let down by the BACC in their hour of need. They orchestrated a plan to save their own bacon. What they should have been focusing on was solidarity and coming up with a plan to save their most vulnerable.

[Chief Willy]

Nothing would give me greater satisfaction than to see this happen. The sense of entitlement is simply astonishing.

All this talk about redundancies is tosh. No redundancies were ever needed. The whole thing was a farce. You can bang on about this all day long but the fact is, 249 junior (non 787/350/ex cityflyer/destined for 787 but currently without course date....) members were let down by the BACC in their hour of need. They orchestrated a plan to save their own bacon. What they should have been focusing on was solidarity and coming up with a plan to save their most vulnerable.

The BACC did try and save everyone. And every BA pilot I spoke to would have happily paid more to save everyone. You need to vent your anger at BA. BA seemed to want forced redundancies for reasons I will never understand.

Many in BA would argue that you are the entitled one, wanting a direct spot on a nice new 787 rather than “doing your time” on the 320 fleet like those who have given years of service to BA already.

[Plastic787]

Nothing would give me greater satisfaction than to see this happen. The sense of entitlement is simply astonishing.

says the guy wanting to skip the queue of over 200 FOs who’ve done their time on SH and been patiently waiting 6+ years. It sucks that you got made redundant I’d never tell you otherwise but that does not give you the right to trample all over my career aspirations and disadvantage me and plenty of others on your way back in. You can backfill my seat on SH thanks and if you don’t want it then you can’t be that desperate for a job after all.

[Plastic787]

You're joking, right? Lots of 747 junior First Officers lost their jobs through redundancy, the fact they were on the Jumbo was just a coincidence, their seniority number was in the chop.

what I meant by that is they didn’t lose their job because they were on the 747 but senior enough to avoid the chop otherwise. Just like the 150 Airbus FOs and 70+ that were made redundant from the 777 didn’t lose their jobs on the basis of fleet either.

[Plastic787]

Many in BA would argue that you are the entitled one, wanting a direct spot on a nice new 787 rather than “doing your time” on the 320 fleet like those who have given years of service to BA already.

Glad someone else spotted the irony here :ok: Still if things return to some semblance of normality and he gets his wish I hope he enjoys his 6 east coasts a month ad infinitum.

[AIMINGHIGH123]

so why didn’t this work for all the non Seniority airlines out there? Afaik in the U.K., only Virgin and BA are legacy seniority airlines; why isn’t your hypothesis playing out between wizz Ryan and easy?

In some cases it has as mentioned but crux of it is no one at BA LH FO 10+ years would leave. At RYR and EZY Captains may leave or may not depending on age, I reckon a lot don’t because LHS to RHS is hard. There is a bit of mentality that when you are on £100k you are being paid well. That’s not just aviation but the psychology has been proven that it’s a figure a lot would like and to take it away is quite tough.

RYR do pay poor yes but they have jumped on the pay and offer a chance to go FO SFI that pays, surprise surprise £104k a year.

[balpalover69]

The BACC did try and save everyone. And every BA pilot I spoke to would have happily paid more to save everyone. You need to vent your anger at BA. BA seemed to want forced redundancies for reasons I will never understand.



I think the goals of the BACC (protect T&C) and the views of the community (happy to take a pay cut to an extent to protect jobs) may differ slightly…

Despite the time of my posts, I have only positive feelings towards the community as a general, I do however have 0 trust in the BACC and do not agree with how the consultation was handled.

[balpalover69]

says the guy wanting to skip the queue of over 200 FOs who’ve done their time on SH and been patiently waiting 6+ years. It sucks that you got made redundant I’d never tell you otherwise but that does not give you the right to trample all over my career aspirations and disadvantage me and plenty of others on your way back in. You can backfill my seat on SH thanks and if you don’t want it then you can’t be that desperate for a job after all.

I mean, I don’t see the issue here, whilst you’ve been ‘patiently wating’ most of us have been sat on him on comparatively little or in some cases 0 pay.

the more PRP that skip the airbus FO’s with the attitude you have and who only just scraped past the cutoff, onto long haul, the better as far as I’m concerned.

[Plastic787]

I mean, I don’t see the issue here, whilst you’ve been ‘patiently wating’ most of us have been sat on him on comparatively little or in some cases 0 pay.

the more PRP that skip the airbus FO’s with the attitude you have and who only just scraped past the cutoff, onto long haul, the better as far as I’m concerned.

Scraped past the cutoff despite having close to 1000 people below me. That’s like Usain Bolt scraping to victory in the 2008 mens 100m final. I have every sympathy for your situation, everybody wants you back, including me but just because you have suffered the horrible injustice of redundancy you do not deserve to have Long Haul seats ahead of those more senior pilots to you with valid bids. That’s the issue here. Surely if your situation has been so bad you’d be happy filling ANY seat, not promoting jumping past the seniority system. That speaks volumes as to your real intentions here. I’ll leave it there because I’m frankly getting pretty sick of it now. As others (not just me) have pointed out, there is only one viewpoint coming across as entitled here.

[balpalover69]

Scraped past the cutoff despite having close to 1000 people below me. That’s like Usain Bolt scraping to victory in the 2008 mens 100m final. I have every sympathy for your situation, everybody wants you back, including me but just because you have suffered the horrible injustice of redundancy you do not deserve to have Long Haul seats ahead of those more senior pilots to you with valid bids. That’s the issue here. Surely if your situation has been so bad you’d be happy filling ANY seat, not promoting jumping past the seniority system. That speaks volumes as to your real intentions here. I’ll leave it there because I’m frankly getting pretty sick of it now. As others (not just me) have pointed out, there is only one viewpoint coming across as entitled here.


I don’t know if you’re missing my point on purpose or not, but my point is your attitude comes off as rather entitled when people have clearly suffered much worse than you, and I’d sooner see PRP jump airbus FO’s with the same views.

I don’t care what fleet I go back on, A380 or the Dash-8 if they had it, I want to get back to flying.

1000 below you is quite different from your sympathy narrative earlier if you’re ‘restless nights’ sue to being at risk of redundancy…

There has always been DEP LH recruitment at BA, I don’t know why the airbus FO’s seem to be piping up about it now specifically. I’d have thought getting people (your old colleagues by the way) back to where they want would be higher up the agenda.

[BAreject]

You can't reason with somebody like Plastic. His tone speaks volumes. He feels hard done by. He feels entitled. He despises anybody who dares to take his LH job. Earlier, Plastic was telling us how he feared for his job. Now Plastic tells us he's 1,000 places up the Seniority list. The thing is with people like Plastic, they fail to see the realities of life outside of BA.

I wish you all the best in your pursuit for LH happiness, Plastic. Let's hope you find yourself on the right fleet.

[balpalover69]

in which case you should have no issue with internal bidders being allowed to move and you backfilling our seats. If that’s the case I can’t even see why we’re having this discussion. A vacancy is a vacancy.



Guess where I was based and there’s your answer.



We’ve been “piping up about it” for a long time now actually. It not only disadvantages the pilot concerned who is not able to move it then has a detrimental impact on every Airbus FO on the status list below that person as they are not able to move upwards on the status list and enjoy the benefits of better rostering (quite important in JSS). I am far from the only person concerned about this and Balpa are aware of this (not that it’ll make any difference as alluded to above).

This really is my last post on the subject: we will never see eye to eye because you clearly (despite applying for an almost overwhelmingly seniority based airline) have no respect for seniority and want to bend things to your whim. Your attitude is contradictory at best and yet you and BAreject have the utter audacity to claim that I sound entitled. So ironic it’s almost spit out your tea with laughter territory.


You keep falling back on ‘seniority based airlines’ and ‘you know you would have been made redundant first’, but neglecting the fact that we are also told ‘BA has never made a pilot redundant’ during both assessment days and inductions.

I don’t think it’s just me and BA reject, you come from what was a technically redundant base, move into a seat where a colleague (who was not in a redundant seat) has been thrown out, and you’re here harping on about ‘your long haul move’ which isn’t materialising like you clearly wish it had. To me this smacks of entitlement. But what do I know?

whilst I’m here, redundancy is generally a term for someone in a role which is ‘redundant’, I myself wasn’t in a technically redundant role so naturally don’t take kindly when someone who was technically redundant incessantly talks down on me.

[Whitemonk Returns]

Seems a ridiculous back and forth when BA have been recruiting direct onto long haul for years. The reality is nobody wants to work SH at BA and to even get people in the door pre COVID they had to offer straight to LH, delaying the move for all of the SH pilots in the process. This isn't new.

[HOVIS]

Just give it a year, there's a clause in the Pension scheme that expires in March next year. To take advantage of transferring the BAPP savings into NAPS AVCs and taking it as part of the tax free lump sum element, anyone who hasn't reached their NRD will need to leave BA.
The demographic in some departments is heavily weighted to p1ssed off over 55s who may well want to take advantage of this.

[balpalover69]

Just give it a year, there's a clause in the Pension scheme that expires in March next year. To take advantage of transferring the BAPP savings into NAPS AVCs and taking it as part of the tax free lump sum element, anyone who hasn't reached their NRD will need to leave BA.
The demographic in some departments is heavily weighted to p1ssed off over 55s who may well want to take advantage of this.

Please can you explain in PP34?

[Busdriver01]

5% (more in some cases) bonus for all staff - sure that makes everyone who got the chop feel better...:ugh:

[hunterboy]

Welcome to BA mate…..at least you’re getting an insight as to how the company works.

[balpalover69]

5% (more in some cases) bonus for all staff - sure that makes everyone who got the chop feel better...:ugh:

‘In new turn of events, Balpa negotiates waiving bonus to bring back all 249 redundant pilots’

edit: satire before anyone becomes too upset

[thetimesreader84]

‘In new turn of events, Balpa negotiates waiving bonus to bring back all 249 redundant pilots’


"Great news, well done BALPA! Worth the subs!"

Also satire, but perhaps not too far from the truth...

[HOVIS]

5% (more in some cases) bonus for all staff - sure that makes everyone who got the chop feel better...:ugh:
I thought it was a total of 10%, or is that just for certain grades?

[AdrianShaftsworthy]

Cabin crew?

[hunterboy]

Sorry to repeat myself, but it does remind me of that old joke I was told 30 odd years ago upon joining BA about the company offering a 5% pay rise but BALPA was holding out for 3%.

[HOVIS]

Cabin crew?
I was talking to one of the engineers on the ramp, he said it was 10% spread over 9 months or something.

[vin2001]

Anymore news about what's going on at BA regarding further recruitment? Rumours that there have been further heathrow courses behind the CRS. Anyone got insider information ... when will the recruitment faucet completely open?

[CXKA]

Anymore news about what's going on at BA regarding further recruitment? Rumours that there have been further heathrow courses behind the CRS. Anyone got insider information ... when will the recruitment faucet completely open?
With a large number of PRP pilots to return and the hold pool still to empty I wouldn't expect anything soon.

[Jackjones1]

Of course with the COO J M removed perhaps it was the case that they now realise the restructure was over applied!

[Potatos_69]

Rumour is the a certain J M from the pink airline UK branch will be coming over to try his hardest to screw the lot of you guys in BA at LGW. I hope it's wrong but...

[vlieger]

Rumour is the a certain J M from the pink airline UK branch will be coming over to try his hardest to screw the lot of you guys in BA at LGW. I hope it's wrong but...

On the plus side, maybe pink UK gets their fixed rosters back, taken away by J M before Covid hit in the name of "efficiency"?

[Potatos_69]

On the plus side, maybe pink UK gets their fixed rosters back, taken away by J M before Covid hit in the name of "efficiency"?

Only once everyone quits, but if he does come, i hope someone can find a way to get rid of him quick.

[Potatos_69]

With a large number of PRP pilots to return and the hold pool still to empty I wouldn't expect anything soon.

Does anyone know if BA still has the pre-covid hold pool pilots on file? Or has it expired and won’t be used?

[GS-Alpha]

As far as I am aware, all CRS pilots have been given course dates and all PRP pilots have been offered short haul positions (although not all have accepted the offer).

[balpalover69]

Not correct. At least 40 odd PRP not offered places, if not many more. Do you work at BA?

[GS-Alpha]

Apologies. I was sent info about CRS and PRP together and somehow misremembered. All of the CRS have courses, and many (but not yet all) of the PRP have either Gatwick or short haul Heathrow. Hope that helps.

[thetimesreader84]

As far as I am aware, all CRS pilots have been given course dates and all PRP pilots have been offered short haul positions (although not all have accepted the offer).


Not quite correct - all CRS have been coursed, and a number of PRP have taken places at Gatwick, and a few at Mainline (less than 10 I'm told). All in I've heard about 60% of the PRP are back in BA in one form or another.

What is interesting is a rumour that c. 10 LH hulls are going to be delivered this autumn / winter (which were originally destined for Russia), with the corresponding demand for crews.

[BAreject]

What is interesting is a rumour that c. 10 LH hulls are going to be delivered this autumn / winter (which were originally destined for Russia), with the corresponding demand for crews.

Nothing would make me happier than to see the remaining PRP members return to BA long haul. That'd ruffle a few feathers!

[vin2001]

Quite a few more offers for SH LHR have gone out today and more expected for LGW! PRP is slowly getting drained but no promise of any further recruitment to LHR after these courses.

[AIMINGHIGH123]

Nothing would make me happier than to see the remaining PRP members return to BA long haul. That'd ruffle a few feathers!

Whats to say they don’t offer all remaining PRP SH then advertise for LH!!!

[thetimesreader84]

Whats to say they don’t offer all remaining PRP SH then advertise for LH!!!

No doubt cheered on by BALPA & the usual suspects as "a great result for BA (LH) Pilots", and it'd be another slap in the face for SH. So a bolt on certainty to happen then!