IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs

[wiggy]

Without wishing to join the gloom and doom brigade AFAIK this is a world wide pandemic - I wonder how many countries are going to be issuing work visas for non national pilots for the foreseeable future and in what sort of numbers?

[Jet II]

1. Where is this ‘flood’ of young pilots? Who would enter the profession now? The British ones are not limited to the UK; there are things called ‘work-visas’ for anyone who sees beyond the EU.




But with who? - airlines around the globe are slashing pilot numbers and going bankrupt every day. Only yesterday Thai went into Chapter 11 and plans to get rid of 30% of their staff.

Yes the industry will start to recover at some point but it is going to be a very long haul and dont forget that Aviation is facing 2 big threats at the moment - you have the worldwide pandemic that may drag on for several years with spikes coming and going, and then when that is finally done you will have the Green Lobby who will continue to try and reduce the size of the aviation industry so as to save the planet.

I'm not so sure that this is a temporary blip and everything will be back to normal in 6 months - I regretfully think it could be a seismic change in the whole structure of the industry.

[Whitemonk Returns]

I'm guessing at £84,456 for all.

The soft underbelly for an attack on salaries was always there, but no-one cared because "first they came for....."

Jet2 Captain's sitting at home on furlough are getting paid more than this right now, and you lot are advocating less than this for a BA Captain going forward? Unbelievable. Yes long haul will recover slower, but IAG have ten times the resources of DTG, this has nothing to do with money, this is an attack on your profession from some small minded people and you lot are trying to give them excuses. Absolute scrubs the lot of you.

[TURIN]

...the Green Lobby who will continue to try and reduce the size of the aviation industry so as to save the planet.

The green lobby have been found out when it comes to air travel. Everyone is now aware that it was a con. Politicians liked them as it allowed them to add taxes to tickets under the guise of saving the planet. The public have got wise, Air Passenger Duty may well be revoked to help kick start the industry.

[Jet II]

Air Passenger Duty may well be revoked to help kick start the industry.

Well it was only a week ago that the Government refused to commit to any suspension of APD let alone revocation - the best they can offer is a possible 'review' of aviation taxation sometime in the future.

[kungfu panda]

Possible BS.


1. Where is this ‘flood’ of young pilots? Who would enter the profession now? The British ones are not limited to the UK; there are things called ‘work-visas’ for anyone who sees beyond the EU.

2. So what. Wasn’t it ever so?


How would your start-up airline cope with training demand when this is happening (already approaching 50% recovery?):

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x810/cd32f59a_dfe1_4271_a961_265ab79a2ba3_108bea2462f8f8fc5a87e9a f611e7da78e89235c.jpeg
Possible sticking your head in the sand...

[777JRM]

But with who? - airlines around the globe are slashing pilot numbers and going bankrupt every day. Only yesterday Thai went into Chapter 11 and plans to get rid of 30% of their staff.

Yes the industry will start to recover at some point but it is going to be a very long haul and dont forget that Aviation is facing 2 big threats at the moment - you have the worldwide pandemic that may drag on for several years with spikes coming and going, and then when that is finally done you will have the Green Lobby who will continue to try and reduce the size of the aviation industry so as to save the planet.

I'm not so sure that this is a temporary blip and everything will be back to normal in 6 months - I regretfully think it could be a seismic change in the whole structure of the industry.


True, lots of unemployment on the cards, but positive news out of Oxford again, this time a steroid treatment against Covid seems to be yielding good results.

Will we lockdown every time Covid reappears?
Maybe the 99.5% healthy people who get mild/no symptoms have had enough?

[Tartiflette Fan]

That is for people who were seriously ill on a ventilator, which is far from everybody. Don't be pessimistic, but equally, don't talk it up wildly.

[MikeAlpha320]

Sometimes I wonder why I bother coming on here... some posts are quite frankly total tosh. This is a 'professional' pilots forum- I am fairly sure some on this forum have about as much knowledge of aviation and commercial flight crew as my golden lab.

[ZFT]

But with who? - airlines around the globe are slashing pilot numbers and going bankrupt every day. Only yesterday Thai went into Chapter 11 and plans to get rid of 30% of their staff.

Yes the industry will start to recover at some point but it is going to be a very long haul and dont forget that Aviation is facing 2 big threats at the moment - you have the worldwide pandemic that may drag on for several years with spikes coming and going, and then when that is finally done you will have the Green Lobby who will continue to try and reduce the size of the aviation industry so as to save the planet.

I'm not so sure that this is a temporary blip and everything will be back to normal in 6 months - I regretfully think it could be a seismic change in the whole structure of the industry.

Where did you get the idea TG are reducing staff?

They have announced NO staff cut backs for foreseeable future just last week.

[krismiler]

https://www.thaienquirer.com/14392/thai-blue-chip-and-legacy-stocks-face-an-unprecedented-crisis-in-2020/

Thai Airways International

Thai Airways is due in Bankruptcy court on August 17.

The company is trying to keep its assets from being seized by creditors.

The company says that it cannot refund tickets and has grounded its planes since the end of March.

The company says it will likely have to let go of a significant portion of its workforce.

The government has appointed more government officials to try and make the state-owned enterprise more privately owned.

The company is a mess.

[ZFT]

https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/1933944/thai-workers-jobs-safe-for-now

Extract from above 13th June report

The management of Thai Airways International (THAI) insists job terminations are not in the pipeline for at least a year even though downsizing the fleet and cutting routes are part of its six-point strategy to turn the business around.

The assurance was given by acting THAI president, Chakkrit Parapuntakul, to airline staff on Thursday during a meeting to clarify the debt-rehabilitation process after the Central Bankruptcy Court agreed to examine its rehabilitation plan in August.

[lostinspace89]

https://simpleflying.com/qatar-airways-reversed-pay-cuts/


Qatar Airways, like many airlines, has struggled to stay afloat during the current pandemic. This has forced it to introduce pay cuts and make several redundancies. Chief Executive Akbar Al Baker offered hope to the carrier’s employees this week when he said that the pay cuts will be reversed once flying demand returns.

Job priority to be given to laid-off staff


It is funny how we've come to a world where a ME airline tries to protect its employees (with no unions to negotiate) rather than a British airline with a multitude of unions and government officials getting nowhere. Are we really living in the correct region?

Food for thought

[TURIN]

There is a rumour going around that BA Pilots have been offered an enhanced VR package. It is also rumoured that all staff are to be offered a similarly enhanced VR deal in an email.

Can anyone here confirm this?

[GS-Alpha]

I certainly would not describe it as enhanced. In my particular case, I am financially better off to wait for compulsory redundancy.

[wiggy]

Wot GS-Alpha said....

It might be slightly better than CR for some but it depends on circumstances.

I gather is nowhere near as "enhanced"/generous as the packages some are being offered in one or two other parts of the UK aviation industry.

[777JRM]

Also heard a rumour that AF are offering 2 years pay!
Not sure if it is tax-free in France?

Of course, the UK taxes you if you lose your job; only the first £30k is tax-free.

[747-436]

Not only that, I understand that they tax any pay which you might get in lieu of notice as well.

[Andy D]

Yup, Pay in Lieu of Notice (PILON) is taxable in the UK

[stn]

The current times are unprecedented and sacrifices need to be made, bend a bit to avoid being broken.
Yes, I agree.
Stick together and when the good times return you will have a strong and established union already in place to do some hard bargaining and make up lost ground.
No, sadly if you give something away, you'll never ever getting it back :ugh: that's why I won't be able to retire in 20 years unlike grey captains I fly with, they sold my retirement age and allowed a dozen new lower paygrades below them in the last recession as these didn't matter to them. Golden times are long gone.

[macdo]

Yup, Pay in Lieu of Notice (PILON) is taxable in the UK
I wouldn't have too much issue with the tax on PILON, it is Pay of a sort after all, what gutted me last year was the £525/week cap applied. So you get less than half your pay rate and it's taxable and they take off any Job Seekers allowance you might be getting at the time too. This is repayable, and the tax on PILON will probably be recoverable from HMRC if still unemployed next year, but the system is well and truly rigged against the better paid. T'aint that way in Germany. Much better treatment.

[CaptainSensible]

When I took redundancy from BT in 1992 the tax free element allowed then was £30,000. Today after taking into account inflation that figure should be nearer £52,000. Fiscal drag I think they call it.

For those suitable motivated must be worth a question to their local tax office and or MP.

Also understand that during the bmibaby and Monarch redundancy processes , pay in lieu of notice, PILON, was paid tax free.

[krismiler]

Qantas pilots are in a similar position with the borders now expected to stay closed until next year. B744 being retired early and A380s going into long term storage. The only flying for the next few months will be domestic and New Zealand so mostly narrowbody.

Pilots worldwide who are on what were previously the senior long haul fleets seem to be bearing the brunt of the current situation. A senior Captain on a high paypoint with limited years ahead before retirement , who's on a type which is likely to remain grounded for the foreseeable future may need to consider his options carefully if an attractive redundancy offer was made.

More junior pilots on narrow bodies are likely to be back in the air first, and with 20+ years ahead of them would be better off staying with the company and riding it out.

[Dannyboy39]

Qantas pilots are in a similar position with the borders now expected to stay closed until next year.
Compare and contrast to Europe. Are the Aussies, with just 100 deaths really going to keep the door shut for at least another 6 months? With a vaccine not guaranteed to be found?

[macdo]

When I took redundancy from BT in 1992 the tax free element allowed then was £30,000. Today after taking into account inflation that figure should be nearer £52,000. Fiscal drag I think they call it.

For those suitable motivated must be worth a question to their local tax office and or MP.

Also understand that during the bmibaby and Monarch redundancy processes , pay in lieu of notice, PILON, was paid tax free.

The only element of a redundancy package that is tax free is the 1st. 30k.of Redundancy Payment. PILON, backpay, holiday pay are taxed, but can be reclaimed if not employed via your tax return. Just been through it with Cooks.

[Cuillin Hills]

Also understand that during the bmibaby and Monarch redundancy processes , pay in lieu of notice, PILON, was paid tax free.


Not true - PILON subject to tax, as usual.

Pay a professional to help you with your next tax return and keep any outstanding taxes to a minimum.

[CaptainSensible]

’Last week with the assistance of BALPA, an agreement was obtained with HMRC to allow the payment of PILON free of taxation. The fact of this agreement, will we understand allow substantial savings for the Company through the reduction of National Insurance Costs on the monies due. Therefore to include sector pay on PILON will in fact not cost the company anything.’


From an agreement made in 2012. So there is potentially a precedent for ongoing negotiations.

[Jet II]

But HMRC changed the Law on PILON in 2018 so unless HMRC are involved in the BA/BALPA negotiations I cant see any imminent changes in the law coming.

New rules for taxation of termination payments (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-rules-for-taxation-of-termination-payments)

[krismiler]

Compare and contrast to Europe. Are the Aussies, with just 100 deaths really going to keep the door shut for at least another 6 months? With a vaccine not guaranteed to be found?

Qantas have cancelled international until late October, however they have a decent sized domestic market to be getting on with, assuming all the different states can agree on the internal border restrictions.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/18/business/australia-qantas-flight-cancellations-intl-hnk/index.html

There are daily flights with Singapore Airlines which are mainly for mail and cargo. Australian citizens may return from overseas but are subject to quarantine on arrival.

[777JRM]

There is a rumour going around that BA Pilots have been offered an enhanced VR package. It is also rumoured that all staff are to be offered a similarly enhanced VR deal in an email.

Can anyone here confirm this?


Enhanced by a sprinkling of glitter, apparently.

The paltry offering demonstrates the value placed on long-serving staff.

Totally underwhelming.

[CaptainSensible]

Wasn’t aware of that, thank you. Now just need HMRC to adjust the amount of redundancy allowable to be tax free in line with RPI. Not holding my breath though!!

[krismiler]

It depends how political the issue gets, when Ansett went broke back in 2001, the Australian government put a tax on air tickets to fund the shortfall in what was due to the employees. This was not unpopular as there was a lot of sympathy for the plight of those who lost their jobs. Perhaps we should have a "Pilot's Lives Matter" campaign.



https://youtu.be/zwi56hM3sLs

[Atlantic Explorer]

It depends how political the issue gets, when Ansett went broke back in 2001, the Australian government put a tax on air tickets to fund the shortfall in what was due to the employees. This was not unpopular as there was a lot of sympathy for the plight of those who lost their jobs. Perhaps we should have a "Pilot's Lives Matter" campaign.



https://youtu.be/zwi56hM3sLs

The fact if the matter is that this isn’t just a BA issue. All over the UK millions of people are losing or are about to lose their jobs and life is about to become very difficult. Add to that the huge numbers of families who now have to adjust to a reduced income from temporary and permanent pay cuts in all forms of industry. People have their own issues to deal with, so I expect any public concern for BA employees plight will be limited at best.

[kcockayne]

Wasn’t aware of that, thank you. Now just need HMRC to adjust the amount of redundancy allowable to be tax free in line with RPI. Not holding my breath though!!
Only one problem - the RPI is well less than one per cent.

[777JRM]

And what game are they playing here?

Divide and conquer, again?
Are they scared of Unite calling a strike just when BA needs to start a meaningful schedule?

Didn’t WW tell the TSC that BA is ‘fighting for survival’?
Yet here is a pay-rise.
While also buying another airline for €1bn.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11909204/british-airways-initiative-young-staff-pay-deals/#comments

[PC767]

Yes they are. Also this is public relations to sway the opinion of the public, press and parliament. The original comms from BA were very certain that time was short, June 15th would be the appointed day, and money was short. The offer was compulsory redundancies at the bare minimum legal amount and the horrendous new proposed contracts.

The leverage campaign has had effect. June 15th passed without incident, (though it is rumored that the section 188 wasn’t legally correct and the process has restarted), voluntary redundancy has been offered and the proposed contract for cabin crew , at least, has been improved.

The danger with this new cabin crew offer is that it causes a split in Unite who represent both MFU the MF union and BASSA the legacy union. On the face of it, to a mildly interested press, public and parliament the offer seems reasonable under the circumstances.

It isn’t. This fight is far from over, unites campaign needs to alter in response.

[CaptainSox]

Forced redundancy offer just above statutory in the offers that I know of.

All training suspended on the 747 as of yesterday.

[stormin norman]

Looks like the end of the road for the 747.

[CaptainSensible]

Only one problem - the RPI is well less than one per cent.

I meant since it’s been frozen. 1992 £30K should be nearer £52K today.

[wiggy]

Looks like the end of the road for the 747.

Not according to the optimists on the Fleet, but it certainly looks like a major reduction in hull numbers (no surprises there then)

[overstress]

Yes, I agree.

No, sadly if you give something away, you'll never ever getting it back :ugh: that's why I won't be able to retire in 20 years unlike grey captains I fly with, they sold my retirement age and allowed a dozen new lower paygrades below them in the last recession as these didn't matter to them. Golden times are long gone.

Sold your retirement age? Allowed lower paygrades? A bit of a misrepresentation there....

[overstress]

Looks like the end of the road for the 747.

Keep looking. The fleet isn’t finished yet. It will return a bit later than the original plan (thanks, Pritti Patel) so training is suspended to schedule in recency to suit the later date.

[kcockayne]

I meant since it’s been frozen. 1992 £30K should be nearer £52K today.

OK. With you now.

[GeeRam]

I see the BOAC jet made the hop from LHR to Cardiff today.

[Skyfaring]

Hi all,

I’ve been following the thread and news, and am sorry for all of you at BA who have worry of potential forced redundancy / changing T&Cs. I myself have been served notice of redundancy by my operator so know the stress you’re all feeling - especially in these market conditions.

Having read the recent news of BA suspending training on the 747, I’m a little surprised that BA have been training at all during the Covid-19 pandemic following the CAAs ORS 1354 and subsequent 1383 until the 31th October.

Surely BA management would have taken advantage of this regardless of internal training capacities to reduce costs within this department? My OPC was due in May but postponed using this exemption, am I’m unlikely to complete training before I’m handed my P45.

So those in the know, is there a reason why BA have been sending pilots to sim training when this ORS is active? Is it simply that the backlog would cause havoc when the ORS ceases?

[krismiler]

Are Lingus Pilots got a deal which provides for the return to previous pay levels in September next year and no redundancies for themselves, although 500 jobs go in other areas.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/aer-lingus-pilots-get-a-deal-as-cabinground-crew-miss-out-39302392.html

[wiggy]

So those in the know, is there a reason why BA have been sending pilots to sim training when this ORS is active? Is it simply that the backlog would cause havoc when the ORS ceases?

I think it is pretty much that.

[PorridgeStirrer]

Within IAG, BA has been operating the turnaround ppe trips to China with 7 pilots whereas EI has been using 5 pilots. Not relevant to the discussion but an interesting comparison.

[TURIN]

Furlough scheme to be extended to 31st July.

[777JRM]

Are Lingus Pilots got a deal which provides for the return to previous pay levels in September next year and no redundancies for themselves, although 500 jobs go in other areas.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/aer-lingus-pilots-get-a-deal-as-cabinground-crew-miss-out-39302392.html


OK, so this is an IAG company with both long and short-haul flying, like BA.
Shares in the holding company are listed as IAG shares.
BA makes two-thirds of profits for IAG.

So BA employees should not be screwed any more than those at Aer Lingus.

[PC767]

Furlough scheme to be extended to 31st July.

May I ask where this is reported, there is a rumour that it has been requested. Similarly that the S188 was incorrect in some way requiring a reissue. Are these hopeful rumours?

[GLCYZ]

Certainly at CityFlyer pilots and ground-based staff have had their furlough extended to the end of July. Cabin crew furlough runs until the end of June, for now. I can’t speak for mainline.

[TURIN]

May I ask where this is reported, there is a rumour that it has been requested. Similarly that the S188 was incorrect in some way requiring a reissue. Are these hopeful rumours?
BA have requested it, I have no idea who needs to approve it. I can't see any of the TUs objecting. I don't know about the S188. BA did say weeks ago that they would start sending redundancy letters out after 15th June. As far as I know that hasn't happened. Either BA were bluffing or the BA Betrayal campaign has had an effect.

[TURIN]

Furlough confirmed until the end of July. Targeted return to work for some as flights build up.

[Jumbo2]

Turin is cabin crew for BA mainline and with the above referring to themselves. The cabin crew furlough has indeed been extended. Mainline pilots are not given the option to take part in the government furlough scheme.

[TURIN]

Not sure how you got the idea I'm crew. I'm not, for the record.

But yes you are correct, the extension of furlough only applies to those depts that were already furloughed.

[GLCYZ]

CityFlyer cabin crew are now furloughed for July, subject to recall (pilots and ground based staff were already furloughed).

[Jackjones1]

I think Turin maybe engineering & as an ex engineer myself with BA all I will say is good luck!!

[Jet II]

Latest BA offer actually increases pay for some members of staff..

British Airways has vowed not to cut the salaries of its 14,000 cabin crew by more than 20pc in an offer presented to unions as the airline seeks to slash costs after flights were grounded worldwide.

The flag carrier is already planning to axe up to 12,000 staff - more than a quarter of its workforce

The proposals would also mean that more than 40pc of cabin staff who survive the purge get a pay rise, with "market-leading salaries" of between £28,000 and £31,000 for crew and £38,000 for managers.

The 20pc limit on pay cuts was intended to help cushion the blow for long-serving BA crew on contracts that pay them up as much as £70,000, or three times the market rate.

Telegraph (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/06/25/british-airways-offers-pay-rises-cabin-crew/)

[PC767]

BA seem to Ben negotiating with themselves and losing. Whilst this looks like a reasonable offer it isn’t. Cabin crew pay consists of different elements, this ‘cushion’ is only for the basic salary. Up to 50 percent of take home pay is variable pay which BA will simply abolish. A 20 percent pay cut suddenly looks more like a much larger percentage pay cut. The subsistence payment to be introduced is cheap and 100 percent taxable.

This is not a reasonable offer.

And nor is it temporary. Any pay uplifts which are negotiated will not apply until the pay parity is achieved for form MF crew and new joiners. So it’s a pay freeze for many years to come. It has also been an own goal. MF crew are understandably annoyed that their new one fleet colleagues will earn substantially more than them, and MF SCCMs who transfer to the manager role may well find that they are the cheapest crew member on their team. Lead balloons spring to mind. BA are either deliberately creating muddy waters or they are increasingly unprepared and incompetent. A plan that was supposedly long formulated looks more like adhoc amateur hour.

[TURIN]

Rumour mill is active today. No compulsary redundancies for pilots but a 15% pay cut. Eek!

[GS-Alpha]

There have been an awful lot of pilot rumours floating around recently. I think it best to completely ignore them. They may well be based on fact, but they could equally likely be complete works of fiction.

[Busdriver01]

It has been said before but worth restating. I know this is a rumour network but I would urge all to refrain from posting or spreading rumours. If they’re worse than the actual deal, it causes unnecessary panic, worry, fear, depression. If they’re better than the actual deal, it causes an even greater heartache when the real deal is announced.

At best spreading rumours is unhelpful and at worst it’s downright cruel.

[Longtimer]

Rumour mill is active today. No compulsary redundancies for pilots but a 15% pay cut. Eek!
Will the pilots accept the reduction for all or insist on staff reductions with no pay cut for those who are left and will they have a choice?

[FlipFlapFlop]

Busdriver01

Absolutely. Some of us have heard rumours in the last couple of days.......but they are rumours. It is not helpful at all to pontificate on what might turn out to be crap, especially with BA management plants on this site watching and commenting.

[TopBunk]

FFS Longtimer,

How can you ask that question when no proposal is on the table and no such question has been asked of the pilots?

Show some decorum, man

[wiggy]

Correct..

All we know at the moment is that as far as the pilots are concerned the company have floated Voluntary Redundancy...that's getting mixed reviews (just how much it floats your boat depends on personal circumstances), and are offering a variety of Part Time contracts - I'm still getting my head around the particularly imaginative concept of 87.5% Part Time Working .

Anyone claiming ATM that they have hard figures on percentage pay cuts, fleets being binned, numbers of compulsory redundancies, is just stirring things..it's not helpful..

Some of the idiots causing all sorts of grief and stress by mouthing off all sorts of fiction ("I heard from a friend of a trainer's dog") on various Whatsapp groups really really need to take hard look at themselves before they next put thumb to keyboard.....they are causing a lot of damage.

[ChicoG]

" (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jun/25/ba-tells-longest-serving-cabin-crew-to-take-20-pay-cut-or-lose-jobs)The airline is believed to have been burning £20m a day while the vast majority of its fleet has been grounded". (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jun/25/ba-tells-longest-serving-cabin-crew-to-take-20-pay-cut-or-lose-jobs)

So that 2Bn mentioned earlier is roughly 100 days.

And the Union are going to investors?

[BetterByBoat]

PC767

Amateur hour is appropriate when dealing with Unite and Balpa; the management might be acting out the script from dumb and dumber but they still have some way to go to reach the utter incompetence of the union leaders.

[ChicoG]

From the Currant Bun so who knows how accurate it is.

(Bloomberg) -- British Airways, a unit of International Consolidated Airlines Group, will cut 350 pilots and put another 300 in a “pool” for re-hire when needed as part of a deal reached with cockpit crew, The Sun reported.

Most of the pilots facing compulsory redundancies worked from Gatwick airport in London, according to the report, which didn’t say where the information came from. Captains and first officers who are placed in the pool don’t currently have an aircraft to work on and will remain on half-pay, while all other operating flight crew will take a 15% pay cut for now, it said.


https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/british-airways-reaches-deal-to-cut-350-pilots-1.1457309

[Dannyboy39]

Doesn’t really add up for me - I guess this would cover the 747 retirements (if that is indeed correct) and maybe the odd 777 out of the fleet that moves from LGW, but where are the other 11000 jobs coming from?

It would sound that BAW are rowing back on their original plans and the old chestnut “not as bad as first feared”.

[White Van Driver]

This article is quite the fabrication. I'm not involved in the talks directly, but we have had the union tell us very clearly that the consultation has a long way to go and no deal has yet been made.
Besides, they have just announced a voluntary part time scheme and extended the VR window for a couple of weeks, so regardless of any "where there's smoke there's fire" no one yet has any idea on the numbers.

Pretty shoddy reporting on the basis of a single unconfirmed statement.
Link to the sun article: looks like i cant post an url until i get to 10 posts, but a quick Google search will reveal

[thetimesreader84]

The basis of this is a WhatsApp message that did the rounds a week or so ago, and was vaguely dismissed by BALPA as being bollocks (wasn’t the strongest denial I’ve ever seen however...)

Personally, and with no evidence whatsoever, I do think a deal has been agreed in principle, it probably has some elements from the above “deal”, and we are at the management (IAG?) sign off / legality check / how do we pitch it to members as a win stage.

[RexBanner]

There’s actually quite a disturbing message for Balpa members reading between the lines of that article if it’s accurate (which admittedly is a big if). “Pilot Union Balpa negotiators succeeded in their bid to ensure BA did not enact a ‘last in first out’ job loss policy”.

Now that definitely sounds like the reporter has got his facts muddled up until you consider “most of the cockpit crew facing compulsory redundancies worked from Gatwick Airport”. Have Balpa just sold out Gatwick in order to protect the Long Haul boys and girls?

Now most probably lazy journalism but if true then stand by for fireworks..

[Raph737]

It sounds like they did, they defended LIFO, not the other way around. BA was most likely going after the top end and not the bottom. Good luck to them trying to gather support from junior members in future disputes, it’s utterly disgusting! Looking over the fence, in other airlines the BALPA reps are trying hard to ensure the pain is shared evenly, it’s sad to see how elitist the BA lot still are.

[3Greens]

it’s written in our MOA which forms part of our contract that every BA pilot signs. Far from disgusting or elitist, just ensuring the company follow what is in our agreements. Or would you prefer BA to be able to ignore contracts and agreements as they see fit? What would then be the point of “agreeing” anything at all?

[RexBanner]

But there’s only 75 Gatwick P2s in the bottom 350 of the MSL. How does that tie in with the report that most of the 350 redundant people will be Gatwick “cockpit crew”? So either Balpa haven’t defended LIFO at all or it’s just shoddy journalism.

[wiggy]

Raph

Look like yet again it needs pointing out that the Bloomberg/Sun article seems to be based on an unsubstantiated rumour circulated on Whatsapp a few days ago....

I know this may be an old fashioned way of thinking but maybe it would be wise to reserve passing judgement on "how elitist the BA lot still are" until we see something official from BALPA...

[Raph737]

Yes, we shall see. That said, I speak from experience. BA has broken agreements in 2006(birth of Gatwick fleet), 2010 cabin crew disputes, 2007(MF disputes) and now. There is no interest from your reps in changing that part of the MOA in order to provide a fairer option and protect the junior members, it’s clear protectionism of the old guard. My airline does it as LIFO alone is discriminatory, another airline, Virgin, also felt that it was unfair to carry out LIFO in their last redundancies.

Yes the source isn’t the strongest, however I believe we will get some news this coming week and it will follow those lines, but as you say, lets see. In regards to the comment I made about elitism, I stick to what I say, I have seen enough of my many years at BA to come out with that judgement. It’s my opinion and judgement, you don’t have to agree but your disagreement will not erase my experiences.

[3Greens]

Raph737


You clearly have little knowledge of what LIFO will entail or what our MOA actually says then. I won’t repeat it here as if you worked at BA, well, then you’d know.
If there is a LIFO deal, and it’s still an IF, it’ll be LIFO plus some other stuff. Like active disciplinarians and poor performance; which would address those issues that, I agree, needed sorting a long time ago.
As for cabin crew agreements in 2006, well I’m not sure about that as I don’t recall the exact details. 2010 however, BA did seek to break their agreements and as I recall, BASSA took them to court and ithe judgement was that the MOA forms part of the contract so must be respected.
Quite why BALPA should have renegotiated the LIFO part of the MOA years ago, like your company; why would they do that? BA is a seniority airline. Everyone who joins knows that, and it’s positives and indeed negatives. Joining, them whinging it’s unfair just smacks of the I want it all and I want it now brigade. We will have to differ as to your definition of “fair” too. Is it fair that someone who joined last week into the A350 gets to stay, but someone who has given 30+ years service but flies a 747, gets the chop? Sorry fella; there’s nothing at all fair about that In my book. Life ain’t fair unfortunately, it’s just isn’t and In the absence of a better system a LIFO+ matrix is about as good a way I can think of.
There are many negatives to seniority too, but on balance give me the transparency of LIFO/seniority than the way virgin, Emirates and Wizz went about treating their crews.
Just in case you haven’t worked it out I do indeed work there, and have done for 22 years. What aircraft does to wife fly? FO/Captain? Or is she crew? If she’s crew then let’s leave BASSA&UNITE to fight there own arguments eh? And defend their own agreements as they see fit; they have nothing to do with pilot agreements.

[Raph737]

Again, the opposite is true, it’s your opinion and I don’t have to agree with it, which as a matter of a fact, I don’t, “fella”. I couldn’t care less for it or your interpretation and it doesn’t matter what fleet she’s in, as she won’t have a say considering the union is ignoring her position, just read the BALPA forum.

Well someone who has done 30 years on the 747 won’t get the boot, someone who had issues should no matter when they joined, they shouldn’t be ahead of someone junior with better conduct, performance etc, as you know the other aspects of the matrix do not outweigh seniority, since you know it all.

My airline is also a seniority airline, and the mandate given to the union by both seniors and juniors was clear, we will share the pain evenly if it comes to it. That’s unity and that’s how it should be done. Yes, “someone’s terrorist is someone else’s freedom fighter” so the concept of fairness is debatable. But don’t sit there pretending you see yourselves as equals as anyone with over 10 years of BA knows that it’s not true.

I wish you the best of luck in your dispute.

[Paddingtonbear]

Is it fair that someone who joined last week into the A350 gets to stay, but someone who has given 30+ years service but flies a 747, gets the chop? Sorry fella; there’s nothing at all fair about that In my book. Life ain’t fair unfortunately

Life really isn't fair. It isn't fair for the long serving guys and girls at Virgin on the 747/330. What happened there?

Before you tell me BA is different from Virgin, BA claim to be losing £20m a day and is in a fight for survival. Get rid of 350 from the bottom of the MSL and they save what, £60k a day? It won't cut it. I can guarantee the only battle Balpa have on their hands at the moment is a battle to save the guys on the 747/A380 with the argument for the line in the MOA that states something along the lines of "regard shall be given to LIFO" - hardly a binding statement.

[3Greens]

Ahh now it all becomes clear. This isn’t about fairness at all; it’s about your wife’s vulnerability to redundancy. It’s only fair, if someone else gets the chop in your opinion then.
FWIW, I believe the sun article is fantasy and although BALPA have said from the outset, that they expect agreements to be respected, they’re clearly looking at all avenues to secure ALL jobs. Including your wife’s I hope.
so rather than getting all het up and playing the man and not the ball, try taking a look at that BALPA forum yourself, and you’ll see that to a man/woman; the talk is all about saving everyone’s job and not about savings ones own arse. We aren’t the elitist selfish bunch you seem to think we are. To date, not a single pilot has been made redundant from BA. I sincerely hope we can keep it that way.

[3Greens]

Paddingtonbear

did Virgin have a LIFO agreement within their MOA? I genuinely have no idea.
BA are a VERY differant animal from virgin. Virgin have no simulators and the training costs to retrain their 747/330 pilots would be astronomical. BA have all the resources they need to do just that. Yes, there will be a cost, and I understand (from the “rumours”) that BA have agreed to respect LIFO (with some other elements).

[RexBanner]

3Greens, the Whatsapp rumours originally suggested that the Gatwick pilots were going to be stood down on 50% pay. The Sun article suggests they’re all going to be laid off. Either way that has nothing to do with seniority; as I have stated earlier Gatwick pilots comprise only 21% or so of the bottom 350 on the Master Seniority List which by any stretch is not “most” of the rumored CR. So regardless of the rights and wrongs of LIFO the inference from the article is that LIFO has been ignored, not promoted by Balpa. Are we going to get a nasty surprise this week?

I am very concerned with the change in rhetoric from Balpa which started out as flat out denial then recently has turned into “elements may have been agreed but there is no final deal”. Paraphrasing of course.

[3Greens]

none of that sun article really makes any sense. Lazy, inept journalism IMO. They’ve clearly been “leaked” the whatsapp message and failed to either, read it or understand it. I won’t believe anything until I see it in written joint BA/ BALPA email or letter; but last I heard was BALPA remain in a position whereby BA will respect our agreements. Any deviance from that would lead to a breakdown in talks I believe.
I hear LGW holiday flight are on sale from July15th. Given holiday flights to Europe will be the first to return, I expect Lgw to bounce back strongly. BA are using it in disgraceful way as a bargaining chip with both HM.gov and the union.

[RexBanner]

Sorry I really should proofread before posting!

[101917]

3 Greens

“it’s written in our MOA which forms part of our contract that every BA pilot signs. Far from disgusting or elitist, just ensuring the company follow what is in our agreements. Or would you prefer BA to be able to ignore contracts and agreements as they see fit? What would then be the point of “agreeing” anything at all?”

Companies and Unions can agree to whatever they like. However, it should be within the law.

LIFO as the sole method of selection for redundancy is not within the law and should not be applied by the airlines as a sole method of selecting people for compulsory redundancy.

The Employment Equality (Age) Regulations 2006 and the Equality Act 2010 changed the ‘rules’.

[3Greens]

I don’t think anyone is disputing that. I understand both sides legal advice is that LIFO+ is legal
LIFO on its own isn’t.

[101917]

That is correct. LIFO can be part of a matrix. I understand that TUI have a matrix.
Your post led me to believe that the BA pilot's contract for compulsory redundancy was solely LIFO.

[PilotLZ]

I don’t think anyone is disputing that. I understand both sides legal advice is that LIFO+ is legal
LIFO on its own isn’t.
True that. Selection of employees for redundancy, as a rule, shall never be based on one sole criteria, with the exception when the qualification possessed by a group of employees is no longer relevant to the company. So, if it was a matter of scrapping completely any one fleet of aircraft, the dismissal of its crews would be extremely difficult to oppose in court. It has happened unfortunately, and many times. Nothing in the law can oblige an employer to retrain an employee for a new, relevant qualification, shall their existing one no longer serve any useful purpose to the business.

However, when all fleets are still there, experience can be a contributing factor, but not the sole one. Other matters need to be taken into account as well, i.e. performance of the employee, presence or lack of disciplinary issues, qualifications for any side duties (e.g. line trainer, CRM trainer, fleet technical pilot), progression perspective and so on.

[thetimesreader84]

I can honestly say I’ve never worked with a more selfish pilot body than I have at BA. It’s not every pilot obviously, but it is a sizeable minority mainly skewed to long haul who have consistently chosen to protect their own at the expense of sharing the pain. PP34, JSS, etc, these things do not appear in a vacuum.

As Foss says, it was interesting to see the narrative change from “‘we’ve all got to share the pain & save all jobs’” when they were at risk to “‘we’ve got to make sure our job is worth doing, some CR may be necessary’” once it became apparent that LIFO was going to be a main factor in the redundancy.

I say interesting, what I mean as a PP2 SH FO is “‘horrifying’”, to be considered as collateral damage to preserve a senior pilots gilded lifestyle.

These people have had the very best out of this industry, and are seemingly insistent in pulling up the ladder behind them. I hope they are more of a minority than they seem to be.


Just to put the other side of the LIFO argument, I’ve never quite understood how it would be fair (to use a BA example) why I as a A320 FO should be forced out of the business to make way for a 747 FO who quite clearly in normal times wouldn’t dream of taking up a SH role, who would incur a retraining cost as well as having to pay (stat redundancy) for me to exit. LIFO within a fleet, absolutely, but as soon as you have to start shunting people into training courses, it becomes a lot harder to justify in my opinion (and is borderline illegal anyway - see redundancy bumping).

[Jwscud]

The number plate that was doing the WhatsApp round at the weekend certainly indicates the mindset of a few on long haul :}

[M.Mouse]

I can honestly say I’ve never worked with a more selfish pilot body than I have at BA. It’s not every pilot obviously, but it is a sizeable minority mainly skewed to long haul who have consistently chosen to protect their own at the expense of sharing the pain. PP34, JSS, etc, these things do not appear in a vacuum.

BA pilots may or may not be selfish and you may or may not believe that but to state that 'a sizeable minority mainly skewed to long haul who have consistently chosen to protect their own at the expense of sharing the pain. PP34, JSS, etc, these things do not appear in a vacuum.' is utter nonsense. With an increase of 10 years of the retirement age do you believe that BA would have been happy to have pilots sit on the highest pay point for an extra ten years, bear in mind the highest pay points had big incremental rises in the last few years because the (then) final salary pension was based on pay in the last few years? That was why the 34 point scale was introduced and there was little anybody could have done to prevent it.

If you had actually been in the company for longer you would know the history behind the changes mentioned and that the options were limited.

In the current climate I do not see BA rushing to make the most junior on say the B787 or B777 to make way for a senior pilot from a contracting fleet, e.g. the B747, to take that position with all the associated re-training costs involved. It has been mentioned previously and often that simple LIFO is legally questionable.

[Icarus1981]

M. Mouse, as you're bringing it up, when PP34 was first discussed, was there an option for all pilots to go to 28 paypoints? I'm pretty sure it was discussed and vetoed!

[thetimesreader84]

Like I said, these things don’t come around in a vacuum, but when BA come knocking it does seem that solutions are found that preserve lifestyles of those at the top. When retirement age was increased, there was no “PP29” compromise - those at the top kept the A scale, and everyone that came next was on a B scale. Same with JSS - when it was “discovered” that bidline was broken (debatable), the solution that was pushed (JSS) allowed those at the top to hoover up the “cream” trips, leaving those at the bottom to pick up the dross that’s left (and more of it, as it’s usually low credit stuff too). Vague promises of “you’ll be senior one day” ring hollow for many when you’re burning yourself out working 20% harder at the bottom, and the goalposts keep getting moved anyway.

[Vokes55]

If you signed up to a seniority based airline knowing that you'll be shafted until you work your way up the ladder, you have no right to complain that an airline is enforcing the principles that you agreed to when you joined. The fairest outcome is the MOA being adhered to, to the letter. Otherwise you're essentially agreeing to having your agreements torn up to suit the company whenever they see fit, especially if it's proven to divide the workforce.

Whether or not some of those at the top of the tree should be considering if they really need to bankroll their grandchildren through private school or if buying that second boat in the coming years is absolutely necessary is another matter. I'm sure there's plenty at the top of the seniority list in BA who wouldn't be missed by the company or those who sit to the right hand side of them.

[Survival Cot]

“The fairest outcome is the MOA being adhered to, to the letter”

The trouble is that the MOA statement referred to is out of date with the law.....

[thetimesreader84]

Our MOA says “due regard shall be made to the principle of LIFO”. It doesn’t specify chopping the bottom 350/800/1200 to make room for people to be retrained off dead fleets.

Theres also the redeployment agreement that guarantees us 12 months salary, but BALPA & BA have gone very quiet on that. Seems that some parts of the MOA (like some pilots) may be more easily disposed of than others.

[The Foss]

“The fairest outcome is the MOA being adhered to, to the letter”

The trouble is that the MOA statement referred to is out of date with the law.....
The MOA is loosely worded (something like consideration will be given to the general principle of LIFO).
Anything like Virgin, which was effectively LIFO by fleet, would be easy to defend as in compliance with the MOA wording as that has given some consideration to the LIFO principle. If BA does go with LIFO+ (which as I have said previously I do not have a fairer suggestion) it will be BALPA that have brought them to that position. There seems something morbid in that those at the bottom could end up effectively paying BALPA to have their jobs negotiated away. Let’s hope it doesn’t come to that, and we somehow reach a fair solution of everyone taking a proportionate cut.

[GS-Alpha]

thetimesreader84, just out of curiosity, how would you have expected this 29 pay point scheme to be implemented? Would it have been immediate pay cuts for everyone, or would it have been pay freezes? Would BA even have been happy with a 29 pay point scale? Do you even know what options were considered? Do you know what the cost to BA of each of the options would have been? The answer to every one of these questions and more, is that you do not have the faintest idea, and therefore you cannot possibly conclude that the selfish pilots made it happen. The pilots were simply presented with a vote, “Do you accept a 34pp scale for new entrants? We as your elected BALPA reps recommend you vote yes.” We all know ballots pretty much always go the way the union recommends, but that does not mean the pilot community is selfish and out to get you.

[GS-Alpha]

Our MOA says “due regard shall be made to the principle of LIFO”. It doesn’t specify chopping the bottom 350/800/1200 (tel:350/800/1200) to make room for people to be retrained off dead fleets.

Theres also the redeployment agreement that guarantees us 12 months salary, but BALPA & BA have gone very quiet on that. Seems that some parts of the MOA (like some pilots) may be more easily disposed of than others.
Will you please share the details of the final agreement with us too, because I have no idea other than a load of rumours which are almost certainly total garbage?

[GS-Alpha]

These are stressful times for all. I have expected to kiss my career goodbye since the very start of all this, but it is not over until the fat lady sings so to speak. We need to keep calm and carry on. The rumours are just that. It is best to not even read them if they only result in increased anxiety and hatred towards our fellow colleagues. Everyone’s job is precious to them for whatever reason, and each individual’s reason for wanting to hang on to their job is no less equal to everyone else’s. BA and BALPA’s stated position is to save as many jobs as they possibly can, and rightly so! Let’s give them that chance.

[Vokes55]

Our MOA says “due regard shall be made to the principle of LIFO”. It doesn’t specify chopping the bottom 350/800/1200 to make room for people to be retrained off dead fleets.

Theres also the redeployment agreement that guarantees us 12 months salary, but BALPA & BA have gone very quiet on that. Seems that some parts of the MOA (like some pilots) may be more easily disposed of than others.

But why should people not be retrained off "dead fleets"? I understand BA owns their own simulators, so the retraining cost is being vastly over-exaggerated in some people's minds. Your job title is "first officer" or "captain", not "747 first officer". The argument about making one person redundant and retraining somebody else to fulfill their role won't stand up here.

If you're going to make people redundant by fleet, it just sets another precedent for the future. The cost of retraining every pilot in the future who is bidding off 'dying' fleets to potentially secure their futures, and then having to recruit to fill those vacancies, will far outweigh the cost of retraining a few people now. Or they'll just take away the ability to bid for a new fleet in future. Either way, nobody wins long term.

It sounds like the redundancy criteria is something that should've been addressed by BALPA at an earlier stage, to ensure its fully 'legal' and compliant in the event that something like this happens. I appreciate that nobody saw this crisis coming and BA was meant to be a secure career airline, but it's in the company's interest to keep this as flexible as possible, and BALPA should've dealt with this as soon as it was clear that LIFO alone could face legal challenges.

[stormin norman]

Our MOA says “due regard shall be made to the principle of LIFO”. It doesn’t specify chopping the bottom 350/800/1200 to make room for people to be retrained off dead fleets.

Theres also the redeployment agreement that guarantees us 12 months salary, but BALPA & BA have gone very quiet on that. Seems that some parts of the MOA (like some pilots) may be more easily disposed of than others.

Redeployment agreements are good in the good Times but just where would anyone be redeployed to ?

Better having a target pay Budget where everyone buys in with a pay reduction till the industry picks up.

[GS-Alpha]

It sounds like the redundancy criteria is something that should've been addressed by BALPA at an earlier stage, to ensure its fully 'legal' and compliant in the event that something like this happens.
It was, and it is.

[Survival Cot]

“it was & it is”

If it is so clear, why is there so much confusion after 59 days of consultation???

“The argument about making one person redundant and retraining somebody else to fulfill their role won't stand up here”

Perhaps not, but will probably be a very different matter in a courtroom.....

[NoelEvans]

... you now also see “I’ll have to check with the wife” “I’m not sure I can afford to” “I’ll only consider it if it’s fixed at 12 months” etc.
What a horrible mob.

[Raph737]

3greens,

It is about fairness, and I could say the same about having a bias, so let’s leave it at that and once again best of luck.

Thetimesreader84,

The nail in the head, I agree wholeheartedly. Juniors being used as collateral for the benefit of the few, hence I used the term elitism.

Trying to gaslight their colleagues to believe that this is the best for everyone, but there are people with children and mortgages to pay, whose positions could have been preserved if the guys at the top were willing to take a larger share of the pain.

I honestly feel for you as I can see the emotional distress it causes on my partner, on top of having to keep cool about my own situation.

No longer the best gig in the country, I’m wondering what the UK pilot market will look like in 6 month’s...

[hunterboy]

What a horrible mob
Noel....I think it is one or two individuals. It is difficult to know on here as we know the type of people that post on forums tend to be a vocal minority.
ralph737 It hasn’t been the best gig in this country for many years. Sadly, if there is one thing that is constant in this industry, it is change. I don’t doubt that new entrants to BA in 10/20 years time will be still complaining about the unfairness of it all. I’m not really sure what they expect when they join?

[B744IRE]

I retired in 2016 at 65 without reaching any of my retirement targets and was then informed I needed dental implants to replace the botched dental implants at a cost of £30,000...so I have been working ever since. Younger readers might consider where they will be placed in 30 years when the next crisis will make them redundant at an age when they will never work again. Their money-purchase pension fund will have dropped 35% (like mine) and the pension will be £25K a year. At least the younger guys may be able to work again in the Far/Middle East in the future (I spent 6 years in Saudi Arabia during a previous recession). Add to the equation the usual occupational hazards...divorce, school/university fees, airlines folding. Rather than ASSUMING that the older guys should go quietly because they can afford to you should CONSIDER that they are just as terrified as you about the future. ASSUME makes an ASS out of U & ME. This too will pass...be kinder to each other.

[Whitemonk Returns]

ralph737 It hasn’t been the best gig in this country for many years. Sadly, if there is one thing that is constant in this industry, it is change. I don’t doubt that new entrants to BA in 10/20 years time will be still complaining about the unfairness of it all. I’m not really sure what they expect when they join?

Nail on the head. Looking from the outside but BA hasn't been a career airline for 10 years at least.

Also I find it hard to justify the junior A320 FOs on here lambasting their senior colleagues about the lunacy of them potentially losing their jobs to more senior LH colleagues. Yes it's retarded, thats why many of us chose not to go to BA, because we knew that was a risk, as did you. If you go after the guys at the top, guess what, by the time you get there it won't look very pretty.

[SkyRocket10]

Better having a target pay Budget where everyone buys in with a pay reduction till the industry picks up.

The buy in is the new part time option- 87.5%. A number of people will happily sacrifice this in order to both save jobs, and have a life outside of work. What people will not do is stomach both a pay cut and part time. I hope BALPA are sensible and understand this, else the new part time options will become a moot point.


Just to put the other side of the LIFO argument, I’ve never quite understood how it would be fair (to use a BA example) why I as a A320 FO should be forced out of the business to make way for a 747 FO who quite clearly in normal times wouldn’t dream of taking up a SH role, who would incur a retraining cost as well as having to pay (stat redundancy) for me to exit. LIFO within a fleet, absolutely, but as soon as you have to start shunting people into training courses, it becomes a lot harder to justify in my opinion (and is borderline illegal anyway - see redundancy bumping).

I do not personally believe BA will use anything other than LIFO+. They can surely sense the destruction it would create long term if they were to go against this agreement. Rightly, or wrongly, it is an agreement we all signed upto on the day we joined. However, I do think there is potential legal recourse in being made redundant, to then have someone else ‘retrained’ to carry out ‘your’ job. Is the job title of ‘pilot’ enough to cover any challenge?

In addition, there are also rumblings of the fact that the CC chairman would be directly in the firing line if BA was to make cuts by fleets. Whether this is having any bearing on proceedings I can only hazard a guess, but it would certainly change most people attitudes if they were negotiating away their own job 🤔

No matter what happens, all that I can hope is that whatever is presented will allow for any pilots made CR to have an automatic RTR.

[3Greens]

What a horrible mob.

quite a sweeping statement to tar 4500 pilots with that brush, and yet on another thread you bang the drum about wanting to work past 65 and thus denying these junior pilots in distress a much needed employment opportunity. What a horrible thing to do eh!
There seems to be an assumption that all BA 747 captains are 60plus and loaded, well I’m bloody neither. I’ve given 22years to BA and I get a little bit miffed when I get accused of some of the things above. I’ve had numerous changes to contracts, taken pay cuts, been on strike to try and better the pay for all, and yet I’m suppose to say “ oh well, time for me to take one for the team, please make me redundant”. As a collective we will do everything we can, paycuts, part time, etc to keep everyone employed. But if, and it’s still and if, I expect BA to honour our MOA. Otherwise, and I guarantee it will happen, is that they’ll do the same to you when you become “too expensive”.
We all knew it’s a seniority based airline, I knew it back in September 2001, when I was junior and again in 2008 during the GFC. Both times I thought I’d lose my job due to the principle of LIFO, so I know ow exactly how it feels. I was grateful my colleagues took paycuts and productivity increases back then to keep me in a job, and I’m a firm believer in what goes around etc, and this time it’s my turn to take that cut to keep you employed. We haven’t left anyone behind yet, and I hope we won’t this time.

[Vokes55]

It was, and it is.

Then what’s the point of this discussion? Then the only objective should be about preventing as many redundancies as possible, as the criteria is already set out in your MOA.

[3Greens]

I believe that’s why talks have been ongoing for 2 months now..

[White Van Driver]

Their money-purchase pension fund will have dropped 35% (like mine) and the pension will be £25K a year.
Haha I have joined BA in my 30s, and £25k/yr pension was what I was expecting if everything went to plan, working full time till 65. (Total BARP fund around £500k @5%). Covid And any other major upsets will reduce it from this figure!
Looking forward, if I am looking at £30k for a new set of pearly whites in retirement, I honestly think I'll be looking at dentures instead. That's after a full career in aviation, 25-30yrs in BA.
No ill feeling B744IRE, it just goes to show how far the industry has already fallen.

If you go after the guys at the top, guess what, by the time you get there it won't look very pretty.
I completely agree. I am squarely in the firing line at the bottom of the list. But I could not support going after the senior guys because they are more expensive because hopefully one day I will be in that position! Seniority is hard earned in this company.

To round off, I wouldn't hold a grudge against any senior pilot deciding to keep their position at the expense of a junior. All individual circumstances are different and we need to respect that. But if one decides to step aside as they are already financially secure and maybe not as enthralled with the job/company as they once were, then I am very thankful for the knock on effect down at my end of the list.

[Andy D]

But why should people not be retrained off "dead fleets"? I understand BA owns their own simulators, so the retraining cost is being vastly over-exaggerated in some people's minds. Your job title is "first officer" or "captain", not "747 first officer". The argument about making one person redundant and retraining somebody else to fulfill their role won't stand up here.

Job roles are made redundant so if a fleet is retired e.g. 747, then BA can legally argue that the roles of the people who flew that fleet no longer exist. Barring contractual issues / collective agreements it is the most straightforward type of redundancy to carry out.

Where a fleet stays but a reduced number of roles is need then BA need to prove that the mechanism they used to choose who keeps or loses their job is fair.

Retraining from one fleet to another is where the situation gets more complicated. If BA made a A350 pilot redundant, and retrained a 747 pilot to fill the roll then the A350 pilot may have a case for unfair dismissal. And BA would need to prove that 747 pilot was better qualified for the role despite needing retraining.

[Vokes55]

I would've thought the person who gets made redundant in a way contrary to a signed part of their MOA (assuming, as I've been told above, that BA have a criteria that was renegotiated to be legal and compliant) would have a better case for unfair dismissal.

[RexBanner]

Not only that but can anyone legitimately make a case for fleet as being contractual? It’s mentioned nowhere in my employment contract and, I would imagine, that of every other pilot in BA.

[GS-Alpha]

If I were a rep involved in the discussions, the first thing I would do is determine the minimum number of redundancies BA will accept. Next I would determine a cost associated with that minimum number. Which cost do you want them to use; a PP24 long haul Captain or a PP1 FO as set out by our MOA? (Personally I’d prefer to need to find a smaller cost saving rather than a larger one). Finally, I would investigate alternative collective ways to find those cost savings, reducing the requirement for compulsory redundancies to an absolute minimum. The talks are still ongoing because both sides are doing their utmost to minimise compulsory redundancies. What more is there to understand?

[Juan Tugoh]

I would've thought the person who gets made redundant in a way contrary to a signed part of their MOA (assuming, as I've been told above, that BA have a criteria that was renegotiated to be legal and compliant) would have a better case for unfair dismissal.

It would be hard to enforce or even argue, in court, for a clause that has been superseded by new legislation. An illegal clause in a contract cannot be used as a legal basis for a case of unfair dismissal or the reverse. The issue of LIFO has been tested a few times and as it, in many cases, now seems to encompass an element of age discrimination - it is impossible to have 30 years in a company if you are only 21 - it may not be a great argument to rest your redundancy scheme upon, irrespective of its appearance in an MOA written many years before.

[RexBanner]

The debate about LIFO is getting boring. It’s been done to death. One thing to remember; Balpa are pressing ahead with LIFO+ (if we believe the newsletters) so you can be pretty damn sure they’ve had legal advice that has validated that approach. Just for all the armchair lawyers out there.

[Vokes55]

It would be hard to enforce or even argue, in court, for a clause that has been superseded by new legislation. An illegal clause in a contract cannot be used as a legal basis for a case of unfair dismissal or the reverse. The issue of LIFO has been tested a few times and as it, in many cases, now seems to encompass an element of age discrimination - it is impossible to have 30 years in a company if you are only 21 - it may therefore, not be a great argument to rest your redundancy scheme upon, irrespective of its appearance in an MOA written many years before.

But I’ve been told by somebody above, who appears to be employed by BA, that the redundancy criteria in the MOA has been made legal, so that’s the assumption I’m going by.

I don’t work for BA so I don’t know what your MOA says. I just believe in agreements being adhered to, otherwise its a slippery slope that affects everybody’s future.

[no sponsor]

Im not on the Airbus. I used to be. Got quite a few hours in it. Its stated in my licence I have an A320 rating. I believe BA would have great difficulty in saying I did not have the skills to fly an A319/320/321.

I will be signing up for the new part time. Do I want to? Not really, but I will take a hit and save my colleagues. I would imagine the vast majority of pilots in BA will be applying to do the same.

[Busdriver01]

AIUI the new contract isn’t enough to counter the headline number in the s.188, unless they’ve reduced that number or are weighting the salary of each pilot accordingly?

[bex88]

This theory is so stupidly complicated and littered with holes that it must be true.

Another one for 87.5% but I would like to know what that 87.5% is of. Current pay, pay -15%, pay - 15% and demotion? It makes a difference

[NoelEvans]

quite a sweeping statement to tar 4500 pilots with that brush ...If you read carefully, you will notice that I wasn't "tar[ring] 4500 pilots with that brush", my comments were quite clearly targeted at those pilots coming up with those statements. The fact that you are becoming 'twitched' about it appears to be a problem more with you. As others have commented, those statements appear to a minority. That minority is a miserable mob. Just to clarify.

Wouldn't it be nice to find a way to keep all pilots in jobs? As I have mentioned previously, these are extreme and unprecedented times. Stop thinking of 'normal' times, they don't exist.

Good luck.

[Shaka Zulu]

I can’t quite believe what I’ve been reading over these last few pages.

It massively saddens me that colleagues have a few of others so wrongly tainted.

These are hard times for all of us. But please spare me the “pulling up drawbridges/gilted cages diatribe/JSS voted in by senior folk”
its just wrong and it worries me that some are willfully misrepresenting others to make a point. It only serves to widen divisions, not mend them

[Barcli]

The wide divide within BA has always been there and it has been getting wider for many years. Now is the perfect storm for this company

[wiggy]

Yep...

And as some of us know despite rumours of green shoots elsewhere there some are very keen to keep on using the word "crisis" so as to keep the fear of this perfect storm out there front and centre in the mind games that are going on.

I don't envy the reps....

[NoelEvans]

There need to be HUGE 'green shoots' to turn this from a crisis:

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/971x523/mainline_jetfleet_evolution_477e1bdd929f69fafc8292d0691582ed 41978bfc.jpg
(Care of 'Flight'.)


Just trying to inject some reality. If you don't have that "front and centre in the mind" you are losing touch with reality.

[wiggy]

Everything is relative Noel ..when every missive from your OpCo CEO and Group CEO, hunkered down in the bunker contains the word "crisis" then other airlines scratching around to get pilots in to cover work, and running advertising campaigns to get passengers back has the appearance of tiny tiny "Green shoots"..

[BitMoreRightRudder]

If you read carefully, you will notice that I wasn't "tar[ring] 4500 pilots with that brush", my comments were quite clearly targeted at those pilots coming up with those statements

What, a statement that they have concerns over being able to afford permanently reducing their income with an unscrupulous employer waiting in the wings to take away even more? No one in BA wants any colleague to lose their job. No one.

I'll be blunt, your vocal campaign to extend the retirement age is aimed at benefiting you and your financial situation/retirement. It would, should it ever come to pass, have huge knock on effects for the generations of pilots who follow, but you don't seem to consider any of that, or feel it relevant to your personal situation.

And you come on here and call others selfish?

Please......

[SID PLATE]

Job roles are made redundant so if a fleet is retired e.g. 747, then BA can legally argue that the roles of the people who flew that fleet no longer exist. Barring contractual issues / collective agreements it is the most straightforward type of redundancy to carry out.

Where a fleet stays but a reduced number of roles is need then BA need to prove that the mechanism they used to choose who keeps or loses their job is fair.

Retraining from one fleet to another is where the situation gets more complicated. If BA made a A350 pilot redundant, and retrained a 747 pilot to fill the roll then the A350 pilot may have a case for unfair dismissal. And BA would need to prove that 747 pilot was better qualified for the role despite needing retraining.


I don't believe you have a valid argument here.
Contacts usually specify "pilot" as the job description. They don't specify aircraft type, nor is there usually any reference to training appointments.
LIFO, in my opinion is the fairest system, if it's already in place when you accept a job's terms and conditions.
Redundancies based on poor performance or character peculiarities may well result in unfair dismissal claims. Subjectivity might be argued.

[Survival Cot]

Two criteria apply:

That which is most cost neutral
That which is legal


Even if a pilot off a closed fleet has a valid alternative type rating, it will need maintenance in respect to retraining in both simulator and aircraft, the amount of retraining will depend on individuals & how long they have held a dormant type rating, including liaison with the regulator.


Point 1 therefore would not be satisfied.


Point 2 may not be satisfied as the displaced current & qualified pilot would be displaced by someone who is not current nor has an up to date qualification. Therefore currently “unqualified” to operate.


Someone within the management would have to sign off this significant training cost, not sure in the current climate where the authority would lie for this.......


Good luck to all, it certainly appears to be getting worse.....

[NoelEvans]

...

I'll be blunt, your vocal campaign to extend the retirement age is aimed at benefiting you and your financial situation/retirement. It would, should it ever come to pass, have huge knock on effects for the generations of pilots who follow, but you don't seem to consider any of that, or feel it relevant to your personal situation.

And you come on here and call others selfish?

Please......
Just to correct you on that one. I don't see any campaign for the retirement age to be extended ever having any change to BA pilots' retirement ages. The French will block that any changes to international flights by pilots over the ICAO limit for international flights.

I am only interested in regional pilots on domestic services. Those pilots have nowhere near the salaries nor pensions that BA pilots have and have probably suffered far more disrupted careers. (And some of them are facing a 35% reduction in pension from this August.) To deny them the right to work up to their State Pension age, as the general public can and is pretty much expected to do, just because it doesn't fit your 'agenda' is selfish. For younger pilots, those under 59, this will be a two year 'State Pension drought' that they will have to suffer. Trying to deny them that, especially those facing that 35% pension reduction, is selfish. Generations of lower paid regional pilots would clearly benefit from being able to continue regional domestic operations up to their State Pension age.

And please quote where I called anyone "selfish"?

Of course this has nothing to do with the wealthier pilots in BA, but I didn't bring that up here, you did. Just to clarify.

[777JRM]

thetimesreader84

‘Gilded lifestyle’?

Don’t forget, the punishment for daring to have this perceived privilege, is to have nearly half of it confiscated by HMRC!

[TURIN]

50% of bugger all is still bugger all, whereas 50% of a fortune is still a fortune.


PS. LIFO is a dead duck. It has been thrown out at every redundancy round i've been involved with in the last 20 years. It can be used as a portion of the criteria, but not solely.

Good luck.

[Andy D]

I don't believe you have a valid argument here.
Contacts usually specify "pilot" as the job description. They don't specify aircraft type, nor is there usually any reference to training appointments.
LIFO, in my opinion is the fairest system, if it's already in place when you accept a job's terms and conditions.
Redundancies based on poor performance or character peculiarities may well result in unfair dismissal claims. Subjectivity might be argued.

It's not just the job description, skills and qualifications are differentiators too

"Fair selection criteria

Fair reasons for selecting employees for redundancy include:

skills, qualifications and aptitude
standard of work and/or performance
attendance
disciplinary record

You can select employees based on their length of service (‘last in, first out’) but only if you can justify it. It could be indirect discrimination if it affects one group of people more than another.

Do not rely on length of service as your only selection criteria - this is likely to be age discrimination."

https://www.gov.uk/staff-redundant/compulsory-redundancy

[777JRM]

50% of bugger all is still bugger all, whereas 50% of a fortune is still a fortune.


PS. LIFO is a dead duck. It has been thrown out at every redundancy round i've been involved with in the last 20 years. It can be used as a portion of the criteria, but not solely.

Good luck.


So the senior folk pay a fortune to HMRC, and the junior pay bugger all?!

[TURIN]

777JRM. Absolutely. As it should be.
I would be very happy to pay 50% income tax on my earnings above the threshold if I was in the position to be earning as much.
On a side note, HMRC will take a big hit if every employer follows BA's route and cuts pay rates. Maybe thats why Johnson has hinted at a tax hike in the near future.

[kendrick47247]

‘Gilded lifestyle’?

Don’t forget, the punishment for daring to have this perceived privilege, is to have nearly half of it confiscated by HMRC!

Confiscated? Fairly and appropriately taxed in my opinion

[esscee]

Nearly half of pay goes to HMRC? Very bad personal tax policy then.

[no sponsor]

It is very sad to see people start to squabble, particularly those in BA. If you attended the BALPA video phone in, you will recall BALPA legal advice was to a LIFO+ because of case law in the not too distant past. I have been made redundant before from a flying job and LIFO+ was used. Unfortunate it was to me at the time.

A good legal summary is here: LIFO: ?last in first out? as a method of redundancy selection ? age discrimination (http://www.agediscrimination.info/blog/2019/10/28/lifo-last-in-first-out-as-a-method-of-redundancy-selection#:~:text=LIFO%2C%20or%20Last%20In%20First%20Out%2C% 20is%20a,used%20as%20the%20sole%20criterion%20for%20redundan cy%20selection.)

[777JRM]

Nearly half of pay goes to HMRC? Very bad personal tax policy then.


Indeed.
In fact, between £100-122k, the effective tax rate is as high as 62%.

Some people consider this as ‘fair’.
The fairest idea might be a simple ‘flat-tax’ policy.

Anyway, back to the thread!

[cats_five]

‘Gilded lifestyle’?

Don’t forget, the punishment for daring to have this perceived privilege, is to have nearly half of it confiscated by HMRC!

Anyone earning enough to pay higher rate tax is doing very well compared to most people. Currently 40% kicks in at £50k, and 45% at £150k. Currently the median - the value that 50% earn less than and 50% more than - is a touch over £30k. Earning enough to pay 40% tax is indeed a privilege.

[procede]

Indeed.
In fact, between £100-122k, the effective tax rate is as high as 62%.

Some people consider this as ‘fair’.
The fairest idea might be a simple ‘flat-tax’ policy.

Anyway, back to the thread!

The problem with this is that a lot of tax, like council and road tax, is not based on income and higher incomes also have more deductibles. A fixed percentage will thus effectively lead to higher incomes paying an even lower effective percentage.

[cats_five]

Or to put it another way, lower incomes paying more.

[stormin norman]

Some of the BACC must feel like Turkeys voting for Christmas.

[yotty]

A quick method to see percentages and proportions of tax and NI https://www.netsalarycalculator.co.uk/

[777JRM]

The problem with this is that a lot of tax, like council and road tax, is not based on income and higher incomes also have more deductibles. A fixed percentage will thus effectively lead to higher incomes paying an even lower effective percentage.


But it could be argued that these are indirectly correlated to income?

The larger the house, the higher the council tax band.
The larger the car the more tax you pay (greater engine size, emissions).

Try googling ‘deductibles for UK individuals’ to see how generous they are!


Back to the thread, it looks like cuts across the board after July 10th.
If BA is going to be 25% smaller, will there be similar cuts across The Board too?

[kendrick47247]

But it could be argued that these are indirectly correlated to income?

The larger the house, the higher the council tax band.
The larger the car the more tax you pay (greater engine size, emissions).

I don’t believe earning more automatically means you buy a bigger house or a bigger/more powerful car.


A flat rate tax disproportionately disadvantages those at the lower end of the wage scale

[Tartiflette Fan]

777JRM

The very handy Net Salary Calculator linked a couple of posts after yours , shows that at £ 120K you will have 38% total tax and NI deducted from your salary. That seems very reasonable to me. What do you think ?

[3Greens]

plus the loss of personal allowance Tax free band, so you now pay income tax on the first £15k or so too, as well as 38% on the rest. Trust me, it’s an eye watering amount of tax and fiscal drag pulls more and more into it each year.

[blimey]

The bottom line for taxation is does it raise more? If it's too high it doesn't, but it does satisfy the green-eyed.
In the UK the top 5% of earners (£80k+) pay 50% of the total income tax - that pays for hospitals, schools, pensions......

Back to the thread.

[Andy D]

A few years ago I was on about £100k I paid something like £35k in tax and NI, which although it is a lot seems reasonable overall.

Going over the £100k mark, made me wonder whether I should drop some hours to go back under the £100k mark as the tax bill grows pretty quickly in comparison at that point

Biggest challenge in the UK is we tax income not wealth (but that's way off topic)

[FlipFlapFlop]

Hey guys, yes the tax position in the UK is way off topic. Especially to those amongst us who probably will not have to worry about it for a long long time to come, if ever.

[777JRM]

plus the loss of personal allowance Tax free band, so you now pay income tax on the first £15k or so too, as well as 38% on the rest. Trust me, it’s an eye watering amount of tax and fiscal drag pulls more and more into it each year.

Exactly.
It’s a dis-incentive to work harder and do well.

For example, GPs and consultants: look at how they avoided busting into this band by refusing to do any overtime (not forgetting the punative pension taxes which ironically were paid by the govt to keep them working!).

The US for example, does not have such a punative system, and far more generous tax bands.

Off-topic for sure!

[777JRM]

I think it is too high.

For example, in the US earning this $150k equivalent, you would take home around $120k, so a tax rate close to 20%.
The taxes there are also on spending, so spend more, pay more tax that way.


Unfortunately in the UK, redundancy pay is taxed above £30k, which isn't a huge amount.
You lose your job, the govt might gain!

[NoelEvans]

Do you guys realise how you are coming across to the general population? And to many other pilots too? Don't expect huge amounts of sympathy with comments like several above!

[hans brinker]

Absolutely not true. Taxes are based on income, sales taxes (equivalent to VAT are low).
I live in the US, after tax, "pension", health insurance and other compulsory deductions my take home is 57% on average. Federal income tax is lower but by the time you add state tax and city tax and healthcare deductions it gets WAY higher than 20%. (and that is without taking into account a co-pay of $3000 for minor heel surgery, or $1500 for a breast biopsy, or $250.0000 for a college degree......)

[777JRM]

Ok, my apologies, I was calculating on married, joint-filing in Florida, having been resident, notwithstanding other costs of living.
And don’t forget, in the US you can offset way more than the UK allows.

But it still shows that the phrase ‘rip-off Britain’, whoever coined it, may have been close to the truth.

[hans brinker]

Yeah, no state income tax definitely helps. Living in Denver, CO, with a spouse who makes as much as I do doesn't! :)

[Phantom4]

In BA’s 2018 Full year figures and Financial Statement there is a section on threats to the business including cyber attacks,climate issues,LOCOs and lastly pandemic.Does this imply that BA have an element of insurance to mitigate their losses??

[bex88]

If they did why let that little detail stop them from “letting a good crisis go to waste”

It seems our biggest threat is the UK government and the devolved parliaments

[stormin norman]

The biggest threat is the lack of interest in the Public travelling - now or in the future.

[bornfree]

I wonder if we might cease discussing taxes and incomes and get back to the issue of BA restructuring and the potential impact on future employment and conditions.

[Not my job mate]

The biggest threat is the lack of interest in the Public travelling - now or in the future.

I think this is what we need to be concentrating on. Not our tax bills or living in denial that this is somehow exactly what BA wanted !

[kcockayne]

Things are beginning to look up - first BAW arrival in Jersey for about four months ; & three of the latest EA32 NEOs just flown over.

[Wickerbill]

In BA’s 2018 Full year figures and Financial Statement there is a section on threats to the business including cyber attacks,climate issues,LOCOs and lastly pandemic.Does this imply that BA have an element of insurance to mitigate their losses??
No it doesn't it's a statement of risk assessment required under the regulations for publishing accounts of Limited Liability Companies in the UK. It does not imply insurance cover, nor do they have any Business Interruption cover for losses due to pandemic.

[krismiler]

In the UK the top 5% of earners (£80k+) pay 50% of the total income tax

Not really, top earners pad out their fees and packages to give them what they want in hand. Professionals such as solicitors charge hundreds of pounds an hour to account for the tax man's grab, their clients pay extortionate rates from their after tax earnings in order to pay the service provider's tax bill. The top 5% then want to be recognised for the amount of tax they have contributed when they have simply charged it to someone else and passed it on.

The middle class bear the burden as they support the lower class with taxpayer funded welfare benefits and pay the upper class tax for them.

[777JRM]

HMRC data shows that over one-quarter of income tax is paid by the top 1%.


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/545x458/0e3c5b94_2028_460b_bfb5_e069f8759b77_afa8025ff882171cd4ecc0a f3da92cf4c8d24ea5.png

[Raph737]

Wow, Surely the BA pilots (So as EZY, Jet2, TUI, RYR) who are looking at becoming unemployed soon, aren’t overwhelmingly worried about their taxes right now.....😏

Seriously, who cares? Back to topic, when does the consultation period is supposed to expire and is there any updates?

[White Van Driver]

OK Back to thread. The minimum consultation period is over. The company are accepting expressions of interest for voluntary redundancy and part time working until this Friday (10 July). Shortly thereafter we should be given a view of the whole deal and then firm up our VR/PT applications and (I guess) the union members will get to vote on the deal at large.

I'm expecting nothing this coming week then it all to hit the fan very quickly next week.

I just hope that those above me have gone for enough part time to save my butt. And I hope that the part time I'm going for is enough to save the poor sods below me.

(note: the "above me" and "below me" presumes a compulsory redundancy matrix largely predicated on LIFO. We haven't seen anything on this officially yet so that really is a presumption. The company stated they wanted by seat and fleet, the union stated they wanted LIFO+ but were not specific about exactly what the + would include)

What fun

[TURIN]

May I offer an apology.

I mentioned taxes, almost as a throw away comment. It seems I started a w1lly waving contest and totally ruined what has been an interesting and informative thread.

Please, everyone. Let it go or start another thread in JB. Thanks.

[Countdown begins]

March this year I was poised to leave a job I've done for just under 16 years to join BA. Luck etc has prevented that, and I now have the chance to look again post COVID, with all my licences squared away. BA are re-modelling to be a competitive business, that's for sure.

[RexBanner]

BA are re-modelling to be a competitive business, that's for sure.

yes because they were decidedly uncompetitive before Covid-19 with their £2Billion profits :rolleyes:

[Countdown begins]

You miss the point. A business makes money, some goes to shareholders, some goes to the tax man. Rolling your eyes with a sense of entitlement is rather silly.
The perks are still here, the pay may be cut. It’s not a pilot’s market out there anymore. We need to get real, where on won’t, 5 will.

[Jackjones1]

If I was a shareholder/owner/investor of IAG & BA was haemorrhaging X million a day I think I would be asking why 12,000 people that were being made redundant hadn’t left the company as let’s face it a lot of other airlines in the same boat have already got rid of staff so is it the case they can see a small chink of light at the end of the tunnel & don’t need those numbers now or is the tunnel still lined with barbed wire?

[Countdown begins]

Why retain on crippling salaries.
The unions will try to destroy rather than protect.
A sympathetic customer is not going to pay over the odds. Business travel is dead. It’s survival of the fittest, and a fat £200k pa flight deck is not then see now. No customer no jobs.

[Whitemonk Returns]

I am a shareholder in BA and I for one would vote that the idiotic and petty management who have destroyed the reputation of BA over the last 5 years would be out the door before any of the 12,000 mentioned above. Unfortunately reality isn't on my side. I suspect however that as with most of the airlines right now they are going to take as much advantage of this situation as they can get away with, but despite the sabre rattling, actual pilot redundancies will be much lower than the figures originally quoted. Not insignificant for those individuals involved obviously. My heart goes out to the legacy cabin crew, of which I have a personal friend affected, this has been a long time coming and BA will count getting rid of that contract alone as a victory, as petty as that is. The damage to company morale will far outweigh the failed strikes of the past and I believe it will be a much different company in the future. Good look all next week.

[Walnut]

At the moment high quality aircraft are freely available, at very good rates. Pilots to fly them take a considerable time to train. Up to 2 years I would suggest. This seems to be about the time that the industry is suggesting the downturn will last. If I was a canny operator I would figure out how to keep this valuable and vital component of future growth on the books A short term gain could lead to long term pain

[M.Mouse]

Pilots to fly them take a considerable time to train. Up to 2 years I would suggest.

It depends on previous experience/type rating but a Boeing conversion course for someone with prior Boeing experience is well under a month followed by sectors with a training captain. A variable feast but certainly nowhere near two years.

Certainly there is a case to find a way to avoid altogether or drastically reduce the number of redundancies with some creative thinking.

[Longtimer]

At the moment high quality aircraft are freely available, at very good rates. Pilots to fly them take a considerable time to train. Up to 2 years I would suggest. This seems to be about the time that the industry is suggesting the downturn will last. If I was a canny operator I would figure out how to keep this valuable and vital component of future growth on the books A short term gain could lead to long term pain
It all comes down to if the pblic, those who pay your wages, are feeling safe enough to once again fly and of course if where they want to to to is friendly or if they will have to self isolate for 14days upon arrival (at destination or again at home).

[PC767]

Report that a deal is done which reduces redundancies. BALPA to recommend acceptance when details are released in the following days.

Will BAPLA members follow the recommendation?

Where does this leave other BA staff?

[wiggy]

Report that a deal is done...Where does this leave other BA staff?

I'm going to sound unsympathetic but I have to say, somewhat wearily, after 30 plus years of witnessing the interaction between BALPA and the other Unions at BA that it needs to be made clear that what happens to other staff is in all honesty down to them, BA management and their Union(s).

TBH we've had years of apparently every work group at BA looking over the fence, seeing what other groups are getting, selecting a "nice item" off the other groups T&Cs (for example hotel room upgrades when on duty, staff travel priorities), and then shouting "what about us" or more recently "me too"..

I really really hope the other groups can avoid redundancies and/or erosion of T&Cs, but lets not start hearing "but BALPA got" or what "but the pilots got"...

[AdrianShaftsworthy]

Unfortunately Wiggy, that is precisely what will happen.

[TURIN]

Wiggy, it cuts both ways. I'm sure the pilots saw the deal that was made withe Unite over the furlough scheme and thought the same.

Let's not get into another 'them and us' though. This is stil an aviation crisis. Best of luck to us all.

[Alrosa]

I thought Wiggy’s post was pretty accurate, fair and balanced. I didn’t detect any hint of “them and us” used maliciously - just a statement of fact and a sensible suggestion for how other unions should approach the current situation.

I do agree with your last two sentences though.

[Ancient Observer]

Tim Clark is in The Times today, and suggests that Aviation will be back to its 6 or 7 % per annum global growth rate in a couple of years.

I remember back, after 9/11, some Senior Economist (maybe from UK CAA?) pointing out that each time there is a crisis in Aviation, lots of people say, "This time it is/will be different".

And of course, the 6 or 7 % p.a. growth rate resumes. Where that growth takes place is currently unknown, but Asia will be above the norm, and Europe below the norm.

So, two years of getting back to whatever normal is, then we'll start seeing the posts about "where will we get the pilots from?"

[TURIN]

I thought Wiggy’s post was pretty accurate, fair and balanced. I didn’t detect any hint of “them and us” used maliciously - just a statement of fact and a sensible suggestion for how other unions should approach the current situation.

I do agree with your last two sentences though.

Yes, sorry, I agree, I didn't take Wiggy's post as decisive either, I just didn't want to kick it off again.

[wiggy]

No worries folks..

I'm probably just concerned that some may think that a BALPA vs. BA agreement ( TBF yet to be seen by the members, yet alone voted on) genuinely or significantly changes the balance when it comes to the other negotiations/consultations going on between other Unions and BA management..

[WHBM]

I am a shareholder in BA and I for one would vote that the idiotic and petty management who have destroyed the reputation of BA over the last 5 years would be out the door before any of the 12,000 mentioned above.
Sad to say I agree with you, I cannot see that the IAG/BA top management have really Got It for how they are going to come out of this, positively.

Go and look at the ba.com front page, where so many booking flights might start. It looks just like it always did, put in destination, date, etc, yet we all know the old service is hugely disrupted. Not one positive statement of what they are restarting. I would have hoped that they would have prominently a timetable of what they are restarting, and when. But BA don't do timetables any more, so none of the downsized IT team know how to do one. Their treatment of (us) Exec Club members at various levels is widely shared on social media as the poorest of just about all that are around. At London City there have been multiple restart announcements, then cancellations, then changes, etc, as if nobody has a clue how to do it - or does know, but are in thrall to ever-changing budgets revised daily in Waterside or Madrid. And not a single advertisement I have seen for them anywhere. Whatever are the marketing team doing ?

In truth, the Walsh-Cruz axis are completely out of their comfort zone with all this. Can the shareholders see this, and the non-execs "have a word" ? Their life has been spent maximising revenue and minimising cost bit-by-bit on an established network. Now all bets are off and the whole thing needs a comprehensive restart, something they have no experience or understanding of. The arrogant way in which they have hacked off the UK government is extraordinary, and the associated press releases they do just ooze an aura of someone who has lost the plot. Of all the things to do at a time when you need friends.

[esscee]

Morale and trust is very easily lost but very difficult to regain, ought to be near the top of every manager's vital list.

[Cloud1]

To be honest I don’t blame Walsh or Cruz from arguing back with MPs. At the end of the day, it was government that told airlines that they MUST exhaust all cost saving measures before they would consider any bail outs; this was in response to the Branson VS debate. MPs have voiced their opinions based on their constituents concerns and not always based on fact. Government should have done more for aviation specifically from the outset but they haven’t. If I was Walsh I would be pretty hacked off as well especially when VS, EZY, Airports and even Jet2 and TUI have announced and exercised cuts with little to no criticism at all.

Any shareholder who doesn’t understand the cost to an airline that “legacy” (not a term I like but one that is common in industry) crew can have, really need to open their eyes. The business cannot move forward with such disparities in crew salaries.

However I do agree that changes to the t&cs are questionable although we don’t know fully what they are because they haven’t been fully released to my knowledge.

[Survival Cot]

Unfortunately none of the other carriers use “British” in their name or brand. It is regrettable that foreigners at the top have criticised the British government and belittled the financial support, which in hindsight could have been directed to a more worthy cause. No one must forget that the majority of staff are first, British taxpayers and British subjects, before employees of a company using the British brand.

[Pickled]

"Legacy" only seems to apply to the cost of staff T&Cs and never to the massive historical benefits that were gained by airlines, such as slots.

[armagnac2010]

Slots are asset.

Staff costs legacy.

Interestingly I feel more and more the need to read Karl Marx.

[Maxfli]

I am a shareholder in BA.......

Not since 24th Jan 2011.

[MrBernoulli]

Yes, sorry, I agree, I didn't take Wiggy's post as decisive either, I just didn't want to kick it off again.
I think you meant to write divisive, Turin, rather than "decisive"?

[TURIN]

Well done Wilson, I was wondering when someone was going to spot that. :ok:

[Dannyboy39]

I'm going to sound unsympathetic but I have to say, somewhat wearily, after 30 plus years of witnessing the interaction between BALPA and the other Unions at BA that it needs to be made clear that what happens to other staff is in all honesty down to them, BA management and their Union(s!.
And with an attitude like this, you wonder why?

I look into this as a total outsider to all of this, but it is no different to other situations in the UK historically and abroad; the difference this time is that the economic situation is potentially so dire, the most damaging of cuts could be justified by most companies regardless of their own in-house credit line.

Someone felt that I was wrong when I suggested that BALPA were a powerful union - in my eyes, only the PFA and RMT have more influence in their respective employers eyes to really scare them. After a deal with BALPA, Unite / other representative groups’ ideals are undermined and you can certainly see BAW doubling down on their other employment groups if their most “skilled” workers are secured. It reminds me there is no togetherness in this industry any more.

[wiggy]

Someone felt that I was wrong when I suggested that BALPA were a powerful union - in my eyes, only the PFA and RMT have more influence in their respective employers eyes to really scare them.

After last years strike?

After a deal with BALPA, Unite / other representative groups’ ideals are undermined

How exactly?

We don't know what the deal is yet, we don't know if the membership will accept it..If it has "metrics" that UNITE regard as favourable I'd say that actually aids the other unions - on the " me too" basis".

It reminds me there is no togetherness in this industry any more.

The various Cabin Crew contracts at BA, and how they evolved, is witness to that..no need to bring "the pilots" into that argument.

[binsleepen]

Letter out from the BA chief pilot,

All pilots to take another 2 weeks unpaid leave before April ‘21. Redundancy based on performance, experience, conduct and qualifications.
Training pool for 300 pilots on reduced pay while awaiting retraining. And a return pool for those made redundant. Pilots on A350 and B787 look relatively safe, Pay frozen until 2023.

not much detail out yet

[wiggy]

If I'm understanding BALPA e-mail correctly then to add to the above:

I'm finding the BALPA comment on pay confusing - Yes there's mention of a "Pay freeze" but also I'm reading comment on a "pay reduction" - they have figures in the e-mail showing pay reducing in August ramping down to effectively 85% of normal pay from Nov 2020 onwards. Pay increases again (staged) to 100% by Jan 2024.

Sadly it looks like, again worse case, a few pilots may well be made compulsory redundant..I'm not going to hazard a guess on numbers but hopefully it's looking like if that happens the numbers are nowhere near the original headline figures that were in the media a while back of over a thousand.

Actual exact numbers for the above will depend on the take up of Voluntary Redundancy (I'll almost certainly be one of those)and Part Time Working..

[FlipFlapFlop]

binsleepen
Sorry, not from BA. So not LIFO ?

[wiggy]

I suspect the BALPA line is that any selection criteria has to include ‘last in first out" as one of the main criterion and must be applied all pilots across the company ..so it sounds like modified LIFO or LIFO + for those not on the A350/B787.

Further to comments/my confusion about pay upthread - debate elsewhere has people talking about this as a 15% pay cut, which is how I read the BALPA e-mail.

The "pay freeze" comment seems to be being interpreted as the annual Pay points being frozen at their current level; so no movement in line with inflation/RPI/CPI or whatever, no movement in line with any previously agreed pay deals for the next three years - people will however still move up the frozen pay points.

In short: Continue to move up the frozen pay scales then worse case take a 15% reduction from that pay scale figure.

( Sorry for the continual re-editing - as binsleepin pointed out this was all released within the last hour or two so we are all trying to wade through and decipher the text of various e-mails)

[GS-Alpha]

then worse case take a 15% reduction
Reading both emails, I suspect those pilots in the CRS pool will be taking a far greater than 15% pay cut. There is still a huge amount of detail to come though, so we are all just guessing and reading between the lines.

[blimey]

CRS pool pay 'subsidised' by the collective hit.
PT % should have been imposed to keep everyone employed, rather than trying to persuade the sometimes less than altruistic to do the right thing.
Interesting few weeks ahead.
Good luck to you all, especially the bottom 450/225 (unless you're just starting/finishing your training on the 787350, in which case, despite only being in the company a few weeks, you're bullet proof!).

[RexBanner]

Experience = Basically Length of Service in BA so LIFO. However 787 and A350 pilots are exempt from CR. 450 surplus pilots includes 100 on the A350/787 that BA are going to absorb the cost of due “operational requirements”. So 350 pilots CR, nobody has directly been made redundant by an A350 or 787 pilot being saved but there will be pilots leaving the business with greater seniority than some of those remaining, which leaves a very bad taste.

[GS-Alpha]

I’ve heard BA are absorbing the cost of the junior A350 and 787 guys Rex, but has it actually been stated that they are coming off the 450 figure, or is that just your assumption? (I only ask, because why would they state a figure of 450 CR when it is actually 350? I was assuming the absorbed redundancies had already been taken into account, and 450 was the resulting figure).

[thetimesreader84]

BA are going to rank everyone according to a criteria (length of service, performance, training qualifications & disciplinaries) and then draw a line in the sand - at the moment that line is 450 pilots up from the bottom. Any 787/350 pilots below that line will be kept on by BA, at BAs expense, anyone else will be made redundant. The line won’t move upwards on the basis of saving 787/350 pilots.

This is from a BALPA rep.

[GS-Alpha]

Well that’s great news. Couple that with the apparently significant uptake of voluntary stuff and that headline 450 figure shrinks all the more.

[FlipFlapFlop]

I suppose this is a lot better than originally postulated so I guess BALPA have done their job. It is still awful for those directly impacted.

Is there to be a return pool and have they said the basis for return ? Seniority order ? Would the CR return pool come second to 747 retraining pool ?
I assume vast majority of those impacted by CR will be First Officers. Will there be demotion of current captains to balance the numbers or will they retain rank and fly RHS?

[wiggy]

...Is there to be a return pool ..?

According to the BALPA e-mail last night there's going to be a three-year right of return process for any pilots affected by compulsory redundancy..

Details yet to be announced.

IMHO I think given what we can see going on in the wider world/wider economy I think the Reps have done a very very good job, some seem to think otherwise..

[777JRM]

So the leak to The Sun over a week ago, was exactly bang on! (300 in pool, 350 CR).

[king surf]

So if the 350/787 are exempt then it's not LIFO, or am I missing something

[wiggy]

So the leak to The Sun over a week ago, was exactly bang on! (300 in pool, 350 CR).

It might be "bang on", it might not be.

The CR final figure number is not yet known - it depends on uptake of Voluntary Redundancy, Part Time and at least another couple of factors..so it could be less.

[bex88]

To add it also states

Firstly, active pilots to match our new fleet make up. Pilots in this group will wherever possible maintain their current fleet and status. This will need to match the flying schedule and some demotions are inevitable.

Quite a bit will depend on the fleet you are on

[RexBanner]

IMHO I think given what we can see going on in the wider world/wider economy I think the Reps have done a very very good job, some seem to think otherwise..

I agree on the whole it’s about the best we could have hoped for. But it’s soured by the A350/787 issue. Balpa wanted to avoid a “fleet lottery” well they’ve got one now for sure, just a different kind. Given the nature of our employer though I don’t blame them.

[Flap 80]

With regard to the “Fleet lottery“, what consideration has been given by BALPA to the joint 777/787 type ratings to protect the vulnerability of a more senior 777 F/O to CR over a junior 787 F/O?
With regard to the Airbus CCQ A320-A350 approval given on September 17 th 2014 by EASA after training trials what consideration has been given by BALPA to converting A320 pilots below the cut off line but above A350 pilots below the cut off line.
The CCQ appears to be a very short and inexpensive process.

[wiggy]

Certainly and quite understandably it's been a discussion point amongst certain line members.

Not sure what consideration the reps gave it.

[Fursty Ferret]

Not sure how the dual rating works. I have 787/777 on my licence, but does a 777 pilot have 777/787?

[M.Mouse]

The dual rating works both ways.

[bex88]

Any 350/787 pilot who would have also been CR also effectively reduces the CR headcount by 1 because the line does not move upwards.

[Busdriver01]

They’re going to end up making about 100 pp1 Pilots redundant. Hardly worth it - retirements alone will cover that number in a year.

[TURIN]

Unite finally talking with Cruz. First meeting has been held. One to one redundancy 'interviews' postponed until further notice.

[hunterboy]

Hypothetically, I wonder what would happen if Unite manage to negotiate a mere 5% pay cut with no CR, would BALPA have any comeback? I see the VR offered to some cabin crew Is already different to that offered in Flight Ops. There certainly doesn’t seem to be a one size fits all corporate policy .

[Thegreenmachine]

Any 350/787 pilot who would have also been CR also effectively reduces the CR headcount by 1 because the line does not move upwards.
Maybe the original line wasn’t where the current line is?

[Plastic787]

They’re going to end up making about 100 pp1 Pilots redundant. Hardly worth it - retirements alone will cover that number in a year.

Unless Balpa had a workable plan all along to reduce the CR to zero and it was vetoed from
above because they needed to be seen to be making redundancies in all areas of the business. Just a thought..

[777JRM]

Maybe the original line wasn’t where the current line is?

BA will put the line where they want.

Just like the original number of 1255(?) redundancies was a number selected for maximum scaremongering and leverage.

They will get their PERMANENT contract changes because, together, the pilots will do whatever they can to prevent CR.

[stormin norman]

This still has a long way to run. The line in the sand will only be firmed up when revenues start creating a profit.

[A320LGW]

BA will put the line where they want.

Just like the original number of 1255(?) redundancies was a number selected for maximum scaremongering and leverage.

They will get their PERMANENT contract changes because, together, the pilots will do whatever they can to prevent CR.

I am not a BA pilot but I believe what happens at BA has ramifications across the aviation industry across the British Isles. Our outfit have also threatened a high number of compulsory redundancies and I fear their true intentions are to make permanent contract changes rather than acting on any genuine need to make anyone redundant. We all acknowledge this is a serious time in the industry but equally so it is temporary in nature and so should any contract alterations. We really must attempt to hold the line here.

[RexBanner]

I’m definitely one of those for temporary rather than permanent but the immediate problem is becoming more and more severe. COVID cases in the US are skyrocketing and that market won’t be open any time soon. Even when it is how bad are the load factors going to be? The North Atlantic is our engine for profits, without it Short Haul being operational is like putting a sticky plaster on a blast wound. Even then LHR Short Haul has 740 flights in August, roughly enough for 2 day trips for each of the entire pilot workforce. This is bad, really bad. To be honest even with the deal that buys us precious little time before the company are back with more s188s issued and/or the liquidation of the company further down the line.

[bex88]

Stage one LHR 320 had 2700 odd flights.

[FlipFlapFlop]

Rex.......I was depressed before I read your post. Suicidal now. Maybe just add “in my opinion” when making your doom laden predictions. Or better still, keep them to yourself.

[RexBanner]

FlipFlapFlop except it’s not really a matter of opinion, is it? Yes liquidation of the company in a worst case scenario (maybe I should have written that) but everything else is fact open to very little dispute. I may have been fed duff gen in terms of the flights from Heathrow in Aug but even if Bex’s figures are correct that’s seven day trips. Still a big big problem. They’re not doom laden predictions, it’s an attempt to inject a little reality into those who think we have any leverage whatsoever in the consultation with the company (especially after the strike last year). No more no less.

[wiggy]

Rex.......I was depressed before I read your post. Suicidal now. Maybe just add “in my opinion”

Sadly maybe Rex had had sight of today's North Atlantic Track message before he formulated his "opinion" that:

"COVID cases in the US are skyrocketing and that market won’t be open any time soon. Even when it is how bad are the load factors going to be? The North Atlantic is our engine for profits,"

It reads...


The following are active North Atlantic Tracks issued by Shanwick Center (EGGX) and Gander Center (CZQX). Any NOTAMs pertaining to these tracks (waypoint changes, procedures) will be found by searching the ARTCC NOTAMs under Shanwick Center (EGGX), Gander Center (CZQX), Boston Center (KZBW) and New York Center (KZNY). 82022 EGGXZOZX(NAT-1/1 TRACKS FLS 310/390 INCLUSIVE
JUL 09/1130Z TO JUL 09/1900Z
PART ONE OF ONE PART-
A PIKIL 56/20 55/30 53/40 51/50 ALLRY
EAST LVLS NIL
WEST LVLS 350 370 390
EUR RTS WEST NIL
NAR NIL-
REMARKS.
1. TMI IS 191..........

That's it, no Track B, C, D, E. etc........traffic is such there's only need for one organised Track...

[777JRM]

Let’s hope Oxford, or someone, gets a vaccine soon.

[Busdriver01]

When this all kicked off, I thought it was fairly obvious that the aviation industry wouldn’t get going again in any real sense before the beginning of next year. It seems people forgot this was likely when bojo started opening everything up again, but it shouldn’t come as a surprise, surely?

I don’t mean this to sound mean in any way - quite the opposite in fact. My point is, the actions being taken by airline management, brutal though they are in their tactics (and that needs to change), are based on these worst case numbers. That may actually be a good thing, in terms of our expectations going forward. Also, don’t forget that although the number of cases in the US is increasing, the death rate is actually going down. That’s good news, despite it not being reported as such.

[lagerlout]

Just worth stating that people don't die the day they are confirmed infected. There is a lag of approx. one month. It is a bit early to make the assumption that deaths are going down.

[Busdriver01]

fair point, though I was also under the impression that an increasing number were testing positive and were nowhere near being on a ventilator (and had no threat of that becoming a possibility). Harder to quantify, though.

[Buter]

...the actions being taken by airline management, brutal though they are in their tactics (and that needs to change), are based on these worst case numbers.
The actions taken by modern airline management are based on nothing more than what they think they can get away with.

[777JRM]

Data breach fine £183 million.
Fuel hedging failure £1.3 BILLION.

And they get away with keeping THEIR jobs?


Incidentally, rough maths, firing 450 pilots would only save approx £40 million per year.
BA says they are burning £20 million a DAY.
So 2 days saving then. Small change.

[Not my job mate]

The Data breach fine will never be enforced, it was a joke of a fine ! I assume by calling it a fuel hedging failure that you were jumping around shouting that the price of oil was going to go negative. If you were burning through your household budget at a rate of knots and you had lost pretty much all your income would you keep sky and your gym membership or would you cancel them ? You should take the helm as you clearly have a masterplan to get us out of this hole !
Oh and guess what, the figures I saw have Waterside losing plenty of jobs, so maybe they haven't kept THEIR jobs ?
This is S*@T and WE are all in this together

[SaulGoodman]

it’s proven that fuel hedging has not been profitable over time. So yes, you could hold someone responsible.

[FlipFlapFlop]

Not sure I appreciate my value to an airline being compared to the relevance of Sky membership within a household budget.

[Private jet]

Do you think people actually care?

[5420N]

This is S*@T and WE are all in this together

We are most definitely not all in this TOGETHER, that is pretty evident.