IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs

[esscee]

Typical smoke and mirrors.

[Jet II]

So, why is WW involved? Surely this BA redundancy plan is just management making their own commercial decisions. Sorry, I don't buy it. If IAG are not involved with this Iberia purchase, a major financial transaction by any measure, then what is the point of them being there. Lets face it, WW is steering this entire process.

Watch the full interview - it answers all your questions.


Sky News

[Dannyboy39]

Is he seriously trying to suggest the IAG board are having no say in the purchase of Air Europa?... it's total bollocks.

[GS-Alpha]

When a dividend needs to be paid, but Iberia has no cash to contribute because they’ve spent it all on the acquisition, where does the money then come from?

[Tartiflette Fan]

Well dividends are (should be ) a result of the trading period, so the next dividend is never guaranteed. On that basis, the dividend will fall out smaller unless any ( if available ) reserves are used.

[Abbey Road]

The BA pilots company council has just informed it's members that BA issued a new S188 letter on Wednesday evening (3rd June) stating that 1080 pilot jobs are now under threat (an increase). Additionally, BA has also now included the 'fire and rehire' clause it has been throwing at other areas of BA, i.e. if agreement is not reached between BALPA and BA, then the employment of all pilots will be terminated, and new contracts, with new terms and conditions, will be offered. How generous of them. Pretty obvious what the Ts & Cs, and pay will be like.

[Oh gaim]

How many on the original S188?

[aviationvictim]

This fire and rehire idea. Is it actually legal? It seems very extreme even for the UK as it makes the unions completely redundant. Surely there must be a way to stop something like this happening?
Best of luck to all involved.

[Abbey Road]

How many on the original S188?
The original S188 was 955 headcount reduction from volume adjustment, plus 175 headcount reduction from efficency changes = 1130.

It is now 1080 plus 175 = 1255.

[TURIN]

Believe me, I take no pleasure in saying this, but I told you so.
I'm utterly astonished that BA have reward BALPA by increasing the numbers and threatening compulsory redundancy.
UNITE and GMB have nothing to lose now.

I understand that BA are coming to an understanding with regard to an enhanced VR package though. At least that's something.

Good luck all.

[blimey]

The original S188 was 955 headcount reduction from volume adjustment, plus 175 headcount reduction from efficency changes = 1130.
It is now 1080 plus 175 = 1255.

Is that 1255 full time positions or pro-rated for the part timers. If it's a full time equivalent, that's not far off up to a third of the workforce.

[Buter]

Sadly i think the union wouldn't go down a legal challenge route over this one.
Quite the contrary, IHMO.

If the BALPA lawyers thought they could win this, they would throw everything they had at the case. I'm not sure I could think of a more important fight to win for all pilots, not just BA pilots. If BA can fire/rehire, there will be nothing to stop any other company from doing it.

If there were ever any doubt as to what kind of a company this has become, I hope all doubt is now removed.

As always, cheers and good luck to us all.

Buter

[Stuart Sutcliffe]

Is that 1255 full time positions or pro-rated for the part timers. If it's a full time equivalent, that's not far off up to a third of the workforce.
The initial S188 did not specifically cover that particular detail, and BA pilots (outside of the BA company council) have not yet seen the new S188. However, the BA company council have, more than once, mentioned part-time as a likely means of reducing the number of positions lost, so it appears they are working on a full-time MPE.

But given BA's threat to fire and rehire, who knows whether any BA pilot, currently on a part-time contract, would be offered an equivalent part-time position in any fire and rehire? I don't know what the law has to say about that principle, if anything.

Walsh, Cruz and cohorts finally get to play out their wet dream. Twunts.

[Serenity]

So this must represent about 20-25% of the pilot workforce.

Surely they will lose routes and LHR slots due to a 25% fleet decrease ??
or/and LGW will go completely. (until Vueling fill the gap)?

[ILS27LEFT]

This fire and rehire idea. Is it actually legal? It seems very extreme even for the UK as it makes the unions completely redundant. Surely there must be a way to stop something like this happening?
Best of luck to all involved.

This is actually legal in the UK.
The fact that it is legal does not make it fair or ethical during a pandemic but rather the opposite.
This shows the real intentions of BA management & IAG. We all know that WW is fully in charge of these decisions. Alex Cruz is simply one of WW's direct reports within IAG.

In the majority of G20 countries this practice would be illegal. The only exception would be the US.
The UK workers in recent years have been following the US in a suicidal trend: large corporations have successfully invested millions of pounds to discredit unions. The vast majority of workers in the UK now are so brainwashed that they strongly believe Unions are a waste of time.
This is very dangerous indeed, especially during a crisis of this magnitude as companies can take huge advantage of the workforce by slashing T&Cs to increase further fat cats' bonuses ignoring any ethical principle and social consequences.
It is true that "anti-union" countries like the US and the UK have lower unemployment levels however we can't forget that the "race to the bottom" is reaching very dangerous levels with too many workers surviving under awful T&Cs in both the US and the UK. BA Mixed fleet is only one example with crew sleeping in their cars unable to afford petrol.
This polarisation (getting worse by the day in both the US and the UK) is not sustainable and will lead to widespread mental issues and civil unrest in the long term.
Decent T&Cs are actually compatible with healthy corporate profits and BA is one of the few example left in the UK. BA has been very profitable with the present T&Cs. This is a fact.
Other EU countries enjoy high productivity combined with generous salaries and strong unions (e.g. DE, DK, CH etc). High level of staff engagement and morale.

We must wake up before the entire system collapses...see the US where millions of very low-paid workers have no sickness payments, no leave, etc ( zero hours contracts) and rely on tips, madness and non sustainable.

[PC767]

This fire and rehire idea. Is it actually legal? It seems very extreme even for the UK as it makes the unions completely redundant. Surely there must be a way to stop something like this happening?
Best of luck to all involved.

During the Transport Select Committee hearing the UNITE rep, (all other BA staff face fire and re-hire), when questioned by the chair stated that there was no legal recourse. Any legal action would be subsequent to the event. Constructive dismissal and employment tribunals. BA would very likely lose but the only compensation is financial, not as much as anyone thinks, and BA would have a reduced workforce with slim T&Cs in place.

[CaptainSox]

I could not be more ashamed of our national flag carrier. Shame on BA management and WW.

British Airways - Spains favourite airline

Sox

[Jet II]

I think the only way to deal with this is if NO ONE signs the new contract. They'll soon come back to their senses with no bonus or shareholder value.


Has anyone actually seen one of these new contracts?. There has been loads of media reports of 65% cuts in pay but they are always 3rd or 4th hand and without any evidence.

It would be nice to see a copy of the new proposals.

[aviationvictim]

This is actually legal in the UK.
The fact that it is legal does not make it fair or ethical during a pandemic but rather the opposite.
This shows the real intentions of BA management & IAG. We all know that WW is fully in charge of these decisions. Alex Cruz is simply one of WW's direct reports within IAG.

In the majority of G20 countries this practice would be illegal. The only exception would be the US.
The UK workers in recent years have been following the US in a suicidal trend: large corporations have successfully invested millions of pounds to discredit unions. The vast majority of workers in the UK now are so brainwashed that they strongly believe Unions are a waste of time.
This is very dangerous indeed, especially during a crisis of this magnitude as companies can take huge advantage of the workforce by slashing T&Cs to increase further fat cats' bonuses ignoring any ethical principle and social consequences.
It is true that "anti-union" countries like the US and the UK have lower unemployment levels however we can't forget that the "race to the bottom" is reaching very dangerous levels with too many workers surviving under awful T&Cs in both the US and the UK. BA Mixed fleet is only one example with crew sleeping in their cars unable to afford petrol.
This polarisation (getting worse by the day in both the US and the UK) is not sustainable and will lead to widespread mental issues and civil unrest in the long term.
Decent T&Cs are actually compatible with healthy corporate profits and BA is one of the few example left in the UK. BA has been very profitable with the present T&Cs. This is a fact.
Other EU countries enjoy high productivity combined with generous salaries and strong unions (e.g. DE, DK, CH etc). High level of staff engagement and morale.

We must wake up before the entire system collapses...see the US where millions of very low-paid workers have no sickness payments, no leave, etc ( zero hours contracts) and rely on tips, madness and non sustainable.

well written and sadly very true

[RoyMunson]

Has anyone actually seen one of these new contracts?. There has been loads of media reports of 65% cuts in pay but they are always 3rd or 4th hand and without any evidence.

It would be nice to see a copy of the new proposals.

I have seen the CC 'proposals' however that hasn't been translated into contracts.....yet.
Regarding pilots, from Balpa comms this afternoon, the company are after a permenant change in T's and C's as well a reduction in MPE. No proposals or the fleet plan are public yet.
In the UK you can be made redundant on mass and re-hired on new T's & C's. They can't make you redundant and then hire someone new. You would have grounds for unfair dismisal.
If no agreement is reached or if Balpa stopped negotiations BA could and dare I say it will end existing pilot contracts and re-issue new ones. If no-one accepted the new contract I suppose you would have a 'mexican' standoff.
Obviously what came out JM and AB's mouth's over the last month was complete b0ll0x

[TURIN]

Has anyone actually seen one of these new contracts?. There has been loads of media reports of 65% cuts in pay but they are always 3rd or 4th hand and without any evidence.

It would be nice to see a copy of the new proposals.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1735x1011/_20200607_005403_5099f4acf874db50455ade314fe23e2d742553f7.jp g
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https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1768x952/_20200607_005627_0d18da57a115b3bf2acb69e024eb650b31ce56b8.jp g
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1778x938/_20200607_005649_f28e7fd69644a304059869b22e2c76e1bcc04357.jp g
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1764x960/_20200607_005717_a0012309bb8bc6c69b5f295f223a1240ae22a8b1.jp g
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1780x939/_20200607_005749_627ebd00fb43ed965e4d1ddecba915f39a9a86db.jp g

[Jet II]

Thanks Turin :ok:

Correct me if I am wrong but those rates dont look much different to the existing Mixed Fleet pay now.

[Chris2303]

The BA pilots company council has just informed it's members that BA issued a new S188 letter on Wednesday evening (3rd June) stating that 1080 pilot jobs are now under threat (an increase). Additionally, BA has also now included the 'fire and rehire' clause it has been throwing at other areas of BA, i.e. if agreement is not reached between BALPA and BA, then the employment of all pilots will be terminated, and new contracts, with new terms and conditions, will be offered. How generous of them. Pretty obvious what the Ts & Cs, and pay will be like.

Now here's a radical idea:

What if everybody fired refused to be rehired?

[Jet II]

Now here's a radical idea:

What if everybody fired refused to be rehired?

I dont think there will be a shortage of airline staff looking for work at the moment - possibly some of the 3500 that Air NewZealand laid off?

It's going to be an employers market for the next 5 years.

[Bridchen]

So, why is WW involved? Surely this BA redundancy plan is just management making their own commercial decisions. Sorry, I don't buy it. If IAG are not involved with this Iberia purchase, a major financial transaction by any measure, then what is the point of them being there. Lets face it, WW is steering this entire process.
Huw Merriman is addressing all of this in parliament on Monday. Have a look at his Twitter, as he's hot on updating in regard to BA and WW in particular.

[OBK!]

I dont think there will be a shortage of airline staff looking for work at the moment - possibly some of the 3500 that Air NewZealand laid off?

It's going to be an employers market for the next 5 years.

and who would fly the line whilst we recruit and train (who would train them for that matter?) these 3500 as they relocate their homes and update their licenses?

[Whitemonk Returns]

I dont think there will be a shortage of airline staff looking for work at the moment - possibly some of the 3500 that Air NewZealand laid off?

It's going to be an employers market for the next 5 years.

Makes me laugh, BA need people to fly their airplanes in July and August, how exactly do you think BA could train up an entire new workforce (without any trainers) in the time available if the workforce refuse to sign. Particularly non nationals without EASA licences, have you ever dealt with the CAA? BA are bluffing and it's going to take some big balls and unity for the CC/FD unions to fight them but if they call their bluff it's game over, what exactly are BA going to do if only 10% of their workforce agrees to sign?

[Phantom4]

If The Trainers stick together and do not sign up,then the entire workforce goes out of check and it becomes logistically impossible to ramp it up after a finite period of time.
Some clever soul can supply the number of days.

[FlyingStone]

No pilots no airline. Eventually, the union and BA would have to sit down and negotiate. First on the agenda "remove all pilots who returned to work".

Under UK legislation, one cannot be dismissed for taking part in an industrial action. I’m pretty sure the same is valid for those who don’t partake in it.

[guy_incognito]

I sincerely hope that I'm proven wrong, but I think that it's pure fantasy to think that a group of pilots will have the resolve and solidarity necessary to refuse to sign a new contract en masse. Pilot terms and conditions will never recover to anything close to where they were before this crisis.

[Ollie Onion]

I warn you now, in 1989 airline pilots in Australia struck a plan to resign en-masse to get the airlines to the negotiating table. Airlines called their bluff and accepted the resignations and immediately made new contracts available to anyone who wanted them. DEC’s were offered, many foreign pilots took positions and that caused a few local pilots to jump on the band wagon. The airlines ripped up the previous contracts and weeded out those who they didn’t want back.... they did all of this with the support of the then Government. Be very careful, don’t rely on everyone doing the right thing, it will just take a few to sign the new contract and then people will pile on especially if they see external pilots taking jobs, and there is no shortage of them. Good luck.

[NoelEvans]

I posted this on another Thread, it was from Flight International magazine in April:

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/971x523/mainline_jetfleet_evolution_3f9e596c895f2be4213b75329da4770d 674437f9.jpg

Conflicts between airline management and staff at a time like this will almost certainly lead to that well known Cold War concept: Mutually Assured Destruction, which has that aptly descriptive acronym

[Busdriver01]

A friend of mine with access to the BA balpa forum recalled a point made by someone - if BA were expecting 2019 pax levels to return by 2023, with the number of people there binning now they’d need to have started recruiting 2 years ago to have the correct numbers in 2023.

[OBK!]

And this latest stunt doesn’t really give the other unions any reason to show up as requested by BA. BALPA are the only ones who’ve turned up to the consultations and look at what good that has done.

[Big_D]

Reading how the BA's management is treating its employees is very disappointing, although technically legal. The only way to change this is by not voting for the political parties that allow such Employment Law provisions to exist.

[Emma Royds]

Would the first test of solidarity be no one volunteering anymore for the long haul turnarounds?

[Jonty]

I have to say that BA will face a day of reckoning because of their actions. It may not help those affected at the moment, but I can see a time when the entire BA work force walks out en mass. Pilots, cabin crew, engineers, everyone.

The management may have the upper hand at the moment, but if they don’t behave in a decent manner towards their staff they are destroying BA just as surely as this pandemic is.

[techwatcher]

BirdmanBerry;

I've been through this, albeit not in the aviation sector. You are correct that a company cannot make a position redundant only to employ again in the exact job role, but this isn't what's happening. BA want to change their employees contracts, which requires the employees to agree. If employees don't agree then they can be dismissed for 'some other substantial reason'. BA can then offer to re-employ them under new terms, BUT (and it's a very big BUT) doing so could lead to unfair dismissal claims.

[Jet II]

Makes me laugh, BA need people to fly their airplanes in July and August, how exactly do you think BA could train up an entire new workforce (without any trainers) in the time available if the workforce refuse to sign.

Well first of all you are not going to need existing crew levels in July and August, its going to take years before the industry gets back to something resembling 'normal'. Next, as others have alluded, not everyone will refuse to sign a new contact - every individuals circumstances are different. Finally BA are looking to make redundancies so an offer of a job (on any terms) to those individuals that otherwise would have been laid-off with no immediate prospect of getting a new one will be mightily attractive.

[OBK!]

Well first of all you are not going to need existing crew levels in July and August, its going to take years before the industry gets back to something resembling 'normal'. Next, as others have alluded, not everyone will refuse to sign a new contact - every individuals circumstances are different. Finally BA are looking to make redundancies so an offer of a job (on any terms) to those individuals that otherwise would have been laid-off with no immediate prospect of getting a new one will be mightily attractive.

And the New Zealand pilots of course...

I dont think there will be a shortage of airline staff looking for work at the moment - possibly some of the 3500 that Air NewZealand laid off?

It's going to be an employers market for the next 5 years.

[Atlantic Explorer]

I have to say that BA will face a day of reckoning because of their actions. It may not help those affected at the moment, but I can see a time when the entire BA work force walks out en mass. Pilots, cabin crew, engineers, everyone.

The management may have the upper hand at the moment, but if they don’t behave in a decent manner towards their staff they are destroying BA just as surely as this pandemic is.

Absolutely no chance. Not a snowballs chance in hell that will happen. I’m afraid BA are calling the shots here. Good luck to everyone affected.

[FlipFlapFlop]

Well first of all you are not going to need existing crew levels in July and August, its going to take years before the industry gets back to something resembling 'normal'. Next, as others have alluded, not everyone will refuse to sign a new contact - every individuals circumstances are different. Finally BA are looking to make redundancies so an offer of a job (on any terms) to those individuals that otherwise would have been laid-off with no immediate prospect of getting a new one will be mightily attractive.

Ok...normal levels will not be required in July and August. But next year ? How do you know it will take years. The answer is you don’t unless you have swallowed the BA handbook on the best ways to screw your employees. And your second and final points are clearly what BA is relying on.......morally repugnant.

[Whitemonk Returns]

If anybody is dumb enough to think enough Air New Zealand pilots would be able to replace even ONE DAY'S WORTH of a BA schedule anytime before 2021 then they shouldn't be at the front of an airplane let alone in charge of one. Even if you could find 500 NZ pilots who were suddenly willing and able to travel to the other side of the world, dragging their families, to an airline like BA whose reputation is in the toilet, how exactly would you get them recruited, sim checked, OCC course, HR bull**** week, visa done, licence conversion, line checked (20 - 40 sectors)... 6 months to a year at the minimum, if even possible at all!

​​​​​Jesus christ, call their bluff, they can't fly planes without you, and you are not as easily replaced as they want you to believe, especially once it goes public that they are trying to replace all of you wonderful Nigels with Johnny Foreigner, does anyone remember Brexit? The Sun/Mail etc would destroy them for it.

[Jet II]

Ok...normal levels will not be required in July and August. But next year ? How do you know it will take years. The answer is you don’t unless you have swallowed the BA handbook on the best ways to screw your employees. And your second and final points are clearly what BA is relying on.......morally repugnant.

I have enough experience of working for BA to know that when push comes to shove its every man for himself. As for when things will return to normal I have not seen anyone in the industry expecting a complete recovery by next year - if it happens I will be more than happy for everyone but I simply cannot see it.

[wiggy]

I have to say that BA will face a day of reckoning because of their actions. It may not help those affected at the moment, but I can see a time when the entire BA work force walks out en mass. Pilots, cabin crew, engineers, everyone.
.

I'm afraid Atlantic Explorer is probably correct.

If I remember correctly, not that long ago, when BA was making loadsamoney all the major unions at BA: GMB, UNITE, BALPA were all meant to be acting as one with regard to negotiating a decent pay rise, so we could all share in the company's success, etc etc..That lasted about 5 minutes.

[HZ123]

Jet 11; Has it spot on divide and rule many colleagues will have to take whats on offer, many will be hopeful of getting an offer of employment. This action has been on the cards for the last 20 years and was tested successfully by the likes of British Gas, BT and a number of the Electricity Companies. Public money was used than and there was no outcry and those companies staff would have surely had the whip hand then. I believe for many colleagues this has not come as a great surprise it was expected it was a matter of when!

[beamer]

Nobody in the airline industry appears to have seen Covid-19 coming but surely after last years threats of Industrial Action, the prospect of retaliation by management was only to be expected. The only question would have been what situation would offer BA management the opportuntiy to turn the tables on what it has always perceived to be overpaid and underworked aircrew. Friends who work for BA or are now retired tell me that the Company has been on a crusade for decades to reduce terms and conditions that dated back to very different times - is this a fair summation ?

[mngmt mole]

Just an observation: I believe things will get back to "normal" much quicker than expected. I am in the US and already things are rapidly getting back to normal. Restaurants, shops etc...all look as they did in Jan (certainly in the consv states). I also believe that the aviation industry will see a rapid bounce. Probably not back to the prior levels...but not far off. Time will tell, but usually people overestimate the good...and overestimate the bad. The airline managements know this, and that is why they are desperately attempting to lock in big concessions now. A few months from now...such strategies would seem laughable.

[TyroPicard]

Here’s a radical idea which could also apply to a number of other industries.

1. Wake up and smell the coffee; the world is a different place for several years.
2. No redundancies.
3. Everybody takes a 30% pay cut. (It could be 40%, or 25%, that’s a guess, a starting figure).
4. Everybody’s working hours are cut by the same amount.

Result: everyone stays current and employed, (and well rested). As traffic increases so can working hours and pay levels.

[Down in front]

What about the training costs of keeping everyone current?

[Out Of Trim]

British Airways - A once Great Airline.

If this management imposition goes ahead, I will never fly with this airline ever again!

It would seem to me, it would be best that all BA Staff reject new BA Imposed new contracts until management is forced to renegotiate realistic terms and conditions to all staff. It is important that you all remain united or fail!

[TyroPicard]

What about the training costs of keeping everyone current?
They still exist. But there will be no recruitment type rating costs for several years.

[777aviator]

They still exist. But there will be no recruitment type rating costs for several years.
These are all great ideas but we are gonna go the same way the miners went. The airlines won’t care about needing to up the training load, they just want maximum savings now and future management teams can deal with the repercussions. Besides, as long as they all do the same then they don’t need to worry about a rival outexpanding them and seizing the market as they will all face the up scaling issues simultaneously.
Its all about to get really ugly and it will, as ever, be every person for themselves - most contracts grabbed and signed before they hit the doormat if history is anything to go by...

(there will possibly be a few who for moral or other reasons refuse to sign, and their slot will be gratefully snapped up by some poor soul who was about to be made redundant)

[stormin norman]

The Job cuts could be at least scaled back if the UK Transport and Aviation secretaries had got their act together and mapped a clear route forward

The travelling public still have no idea of any new airport procedures ,estimated new check in times ,on board changes to seating and arrival procedures.

Confidence in flying is probally at an all time low.

It's the travelling public that will keep pilots in seats - no one else

[wiggy]

Here’s a radical idea which could also apply to a number of other industries.

1. Wake up and smell the coffee; the world is a different place for several years.
2. No redundancies.
3. Everybody takes a 30% pay cut. (It could be 40%, or 25%, that’s a guess, a starting figure).
4. Everybody’s working hours are cut by the same amount.

Result: everyone stays current and employed, (and well rested). As traffic increases so can working hours and pay levels.

Problem is whilst the workforce might accept that in the short term the management only seem to want points 1 and 3.

[DaveReidUK]

The Job cuts could be at least scaled back if the UK Transport and Aviation secretaries had got their act together and mapped a clear route forward

That would be Grant Shapps and, er, Grant Shapps.

Whether he/they has his/their act together is a moot point.

[Aomoe]

If you disagree with the outrageous, unethical changes that BA management are making with complete disregard for hard working, loyal employees then please consider signing this petition. It is now abundantly clear that BA/IAG have no concern at all to listen to either their unions or the government. Maybe, just maybe they will listen to their customers. Quite honestly I don't think BA will change its course of action on the fire & rehire plans unless their Customers take a stand.

https://www.change.org/p/alex-cruz-british-airways-stop-shafting-your-42-000-staff-signed-by-ba-customers?recruiter=800568664&utm_source=share_petition&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&utm_medium=whatsapp&recruited_by_id=b4da9ab0-a5d2-11e7-b5d9-07372c171762

[Oh gaim]

How will they ever keep a straight face interviewing in the future when asking “tell me why you want to work for BA”

[Jet II]

Here’s a radical idea which could also apply to a number of other industries.

1. Wake up and smell the coffee; the world is a different place for several years.
2. No redundancies.
3. Everybody takes a 30% pay cut. (It could be 40%, or 25%, that’s a guess, a starting figure).
4. Everybody’s working hours are cut by the same amount.

Result: everyone stays current and employed, (and well rested). As traffic increases so can working hours and pay levels.

I think its not a bad idea although I believe that the hidden costs would mean that the pay cuts would need to be around 50% as they are currently at Emirates.

But why have the unions not proposed this? - it would solve the redundancy issue and protect jobs and take away the issue over the changes in contract. Perhaps one reason is that it might not be seen as fair to some groups of employees?. If you are CC on a legacy contract and earning £60k then a 50% cut to a take home of £30k is no problem - however if you are CC on a Mixed Fleet contract then a 50% cut to your current £25k pay is only going to leave you with £12,500 pa.

[wiggy]

But why have the unions not proposed this? - it would solve the redundancy issue and protect jobs and take away the issue over the changes in contract. Perhaps one reason is that it might not be seen as fair to some groups of employees?. If you are CC on a legacy contract and earning £60k then a 50% cut to a take home of £30k is no problem - however if you are CC on a Mixed Fleet contract then a 50% cut to your current £25k pay is only going to leave you with £12,500 pa.

The CC Unions? As in Unite/BASSA? Because AFAIK the rumour is they simply refused right from the outset to get involved in any negotiations with BA.

Can anyone confirm/deny?

[Raph737]

Nobox HR is recruiting A320 FO/Capt for an European client, to start ops in the UK and Spain during winter 2020.

Guess that those Gatwick slots should go to Vueling? Cynical move if it’s Vueling, doubt they will disclose who the client is...

[FlightDetent]

Perhaps the management is not fighting yesterday's war, i.e. COVID but rather the future lean Wizzair, 25% trimmed Ryanair, and the KLM-AF + LH mainland behemoths. Targeting not this season's cash flow, but the business' crew cost above the shrinking market share.

Ceterum censeo, UK should have a bill to disallow access to the market for any airline that runs a self-employed, social contribution evading, pilot contract scheme. Give your beancounters the resources to feed you, 35% is not a small fraction.
(the cost-saving they achieve without proper employment). This time is as good as any, such a rule could easily be attached to whatever emerges at the end of this.

Raph737 Exactly that, target the competition against which Vuelig's has been created, and perhaps this dog-eat-dog within IAG would cease. As hated as they are, I¨ll take my bets AC and WW do not intend to piss of staff that is hard to replace.

[eagle21]

Nobox HR is recruiting A320 FO/Capt for an European client, to start ops in the UK and Spain during winter 2020.

Guess that those Gatwick slots should go to Vueling? Cynical move if it’s Vueling, doubt they will disclose who the client is...

Nobox HR appear to be recruiting for Gowair, so not related to IAG in any way. See the end of this earlier thread:

https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/632199-blue-panorama-recruiting.html

“A friend of mine applied via Nobox, apparently it’s for Gowair based in Madrid, no mention of a U.K. Airline/base despite it being advertised.

Seasonal contract November-April.”

[FlipFlapFlop]

Here’s a radical idea which could also apply to a number of other industries.

1. Wake up and smell the coffee; the world is a different place for several years.
2. No redundancies.
3. Everybody takes a 30% pay cut. (It could be 40%, or 25%, that’s a guess, a starting figure).
4. Everybody’s working hours are cut by the same amount.

Result: everyone stays current and employed, (and well rested). As traffic increases so can working hours and pay levels.

3 and 4 have been suggested many times and raised to MPs as a reasonable solution.
BALPA are the only engaged union so CC unions not in place to drive through this an option.
There appears no appetite for this at all as a solution for pilots. Reason......it does not come close to satisfying BA management’s true objectives.....to rid them of PP24 and smash terms to the floor for ever.

[JW411]

As an ex-Laker DC-10 captain who had his life ripped apart by Lord King and his merry men, I am finding this current BA situation quite fascinating.

[wiggy]

As an ex-Laker DC-10 captain who had his life ripped apart by Lord King and his merry men, I am finding this current BA situation quite fascinating.

Dare I ask is that is "fascinating" spelt the German way, beginning with sch or are you empathising with those who weren't at BA (in fact possibly weren't born) when Lord King was in charge.

I hope it's the later.

[Stone Cold II]

On LBC I’ve just heard they will be looking at the airline industry at 8pm tonight. WW will be on and they want people to phone in. Great opportunity to ask about their ethics with it going out live across the nation.

[PC767]

The CC Unions? As in Unite/BASSA? Because AFAIK the rumour is they simply refused right from the outset to get involved in any negotiations with BA.

Can anyone confirm/deny?

Unite have been invited to consultations not negotiations. A company issuing section 188 notices merely has to consult, it does not have to agree with other points or negotiate a settlement. Having consulted, the company is free to go in its intended direction.

Unite want to enter negotiations and require the ‘loaded gun’ 188 to be rescinded so that negotiations can take place. Whilst not paying any attention to consultations a company must show that it has entered meaningful consultations. Unite believe that engaging with BA at present will allow BA to demonstrate that meaningful consultations took place. This is why unite have not sat down with BA.

[wiggy]

This is why unite have not sat down with BA.

Thanks for the full explanation and clarification.

[TURIN]

On LBC I’ve just heard they will be looking at the airline industry at 8pm tonight. WW will be on and they want people to phone in. Great opportunity to ask about their ethics with it going out live across the nation.

It was a good program, I thought the GMB rep was extremly articulate and put the points across well.
When questioned Walsh said that he really didn't expect redundancy notices to be going out on the 15th of June. He wouldn't elaborate.

[Jet II]

Anyone who wants to hear the interviews can get them HERE (https://www.globalplayer.com/podcasts/episodes/7DrbVje/) - interviews start at 40 minutes in to the program.

[king surf]

I heard Ian Dale mention that he had a friend whose salary was dropping from £75000 to £32000 so his friend was probably a ww CSD.
That £75000 is a lot more than many Pilots in BA. No wonder BA is slashing salaries.

[Dannyboy39]

I heard Ian Dale mention that he had a friend whose salary was dropping from £75000 to £32000 so his friend was probably a ww CSD.That £75000 is a lot more than many Pilots in BA. No wonder BA is slashing salaries.
He also mentioned that someone had contacted him saying that she was now being offered less in 2020 than she started on in 1989. But her loyal service, incremental increases and promotions have earned those rises. I cannot disagree with what you're intimating that a 75k cabin crew salary is unsustainable and I presume, especially in a situation like this one, most cabin crew would accept that there would be need to be a reduction.

This situation cannot be "this and them" between pilots, engineers, head office and cabin crew - everyone needs to be together (I speak this as a non-BA employee). Aviation has a habit of doing this, and lets be honest, pilots do tend to get the better rub of the green in the aspect - I've seen this first hand. But they have invested vast sums in their future and are heavily trained; they are rightly the best paid operational staff. Of course this is a pilot forum, but there are a lot of non-pilot contributors and their viewpoints shouldn't be quashed because they don't work at the pointy end.

[king surf]

Such a brutal salary cut is not reasonable or fair for anyone. Cuts have to be managed properly and it is clear that IAG are taking every opportunity they can during this crisis . The plan to merge the cc fleets has probably been in place for a while. IAG have played a patient waiting game and pounced.
A game changer for many will be the mix of short haul and long haul with many living too far away to make it work and BA know this. It's interesting that ba managed to grit together a shiny new brochure so quickly explains to all what the new fleet will look like. It even mentions free car parking as a benefit!.
Unite need to get around the table with BA to stand any chance of striking some sort of compromise but listening to Len M last night I think no discussions at all will happen and BA will have won.

[Axel-Flo]

I think you need to be very careful with what you deem people are worth in salary terms and more so to your core business🤔 Now there was an example of a flight engineer who, when the company went to a 2 man flight deck, was offered a CC role which he took and retained his salary for about a year until he went onto a new CC contract. The face of BA I would guess isn’t the pilots, that’s for sure, and what your CC do for the passengers, especially the Prems, Gold card holders and high paying first and club class passengers will have way more effect on them being a return customer than the efforts of a Nigel or Nigella? That some of them achieve a high salary must be compared to what a high class high cost restaurant perhaps pays its Maitre D or Sommelier and certainly should not be likened to an FO for example...those are very different skill sets, have very different value and potential and are comparing apples with oranges. As to what a New FO or even perhaps an older one from say a Typhoon cockpit should be paid when first starting a new role on a new type in a new company. You’re all in the same boat now with the issue of 188 to pilots as well as the rest of the company, working together to see the value in each other could never be more important as you go forward in an uncertain aviation future. I’m not sure the race to the bottom in salary and conditions will necessarily get you the right Face of BA “ in flight customer experience operatives” (Previously perhaps known as Cabin Crew) to convince business users to pay £7k for a first class fare to the US say? And what then, will they decide to rename you in front on the Flight deck door, as the “seat stick interface operative” in new contracts so that they can change all your terms as well?

[PC767]

I heard Ian Dale mention that he had a friend whose salary was dropping from £75000 to £32000 so his friend was probably a ww CSD.
That £75000 is a lot more than many Pilots in BA. No wonder BA is slashing salaries.

I do not know for certain but I suspect that Iain Dale’s friend isn’t probably long serving full time world wide CSD. These are the only cabin crew who could attain such a salary. The numbers would be counted on two hands. They do not represent the salary costs or aspirations of the 12000 other cabin crew. I am senior crew with twenty years service, I do not come close to that figure nor even under current t&cs would I ever. Neither do I resent this crew member, they have done their time, worked hard and positively for BA and dare I say it, will soon be retired of their free will.

The debate which i hope does not start, is similar to quoting BA captains on £200k pa. Maybe a few under certain circumstances but certainly not representative of my pilot colleagues. It’s a red herring and distorts the debate.

[TOM100]

I am confused if they are not going to issue redundancy notices on 15th June (good) then why are they doing all this ? Or is this just a technical response i.e not on 15th but maybe on the 18th (or whatever date they choose). If, for example BASSA won’t meet until the s188 is removed what are BA waiting for ? Am just confused about the strategy ? Surely, the nearer to July (and possible Airbridges etc) they get, there is more business and their argument begins to dilute ? Curious.......

[Ancient Observer]

It will be all about what they think they can realistically and practically do.
How do you eat an elephant? - In small pieces with a knife and fork.
They need to train the managers to have very difficult conversations, and then they will work through small groups, one person at a time.

At least, that is what I would do!!

[TOM100]

Maybe - seems very cautious, given their approach thus far and that’s a lot of people to have conversations with (especially if a big chunk of them have been advised not to talk to you !)

[Jet II]

The question is not whether it is fair or not that CC on £75k a year (or even FC on £200k) are being told to take a pay cut, it is what are affordable pay levels gong forward in the new reality. If it is a future of lower yields due to social distancing, less PAX numbers overall and the competition paying lower wages due to a glut of pilots and CC on the market, then to remain in business (and BA needs to be a profitable business) massive restructuring is going to be needed in all areas - including remuneration.

[777JRM]

The question is not whether it is fair or not that CC on £75k a year (or even FC on £200k) are being told to take a pay cut, it is what are affordable pay levels gong forward in the new reality. If it is a future of lower yields due to social distancing, less PAX numbers overall and the competition paying lower wages due to a glut of pilots and CC on the market, then to remain in business (and BA needs to be a profitable business) massive restructuring is going to be needed in all areas - including remuneration.


Whatever one thinks of the pay levels, these employee costs were there when IAG made MASSIVE PROFITS.

There is no cost ‘problem’: IAG’s problem is REVENUE.

[TOM100]

If you can’t make revenue you have to go after the only other things you can control, like costs.....

[Jet II]

Whatever one thinks of the pay levels, these employee costs were there when IAG made MASSIVE PROFITS.

Which they are no longer doing. The profits that BA made in the past are irrelevant to the challenges going forward.

[Joe le Taxi]

It's obvious to anyone outside the aviation bubble - that if the unions create this enormous inverted pyramid, with massive seniority determined T&C benefits for those at the top, for doing essentially the same job as those at the bottom .... then it is just an "accident" waiting to happen for the whole lot to be pushed over, with all the scales crashing down to the ground level.

Unfortunately (and probably as a result of the above) at BA, the ground level is very very low.

[777JRM]

If you can’t make revenue you have to go after the only other things you can control, like costs.....


And there lies the proof for this opportunist PERMANENT land-grab for what is a TEMPORARY problem.

Never waste a good crisis.

[PC767]

It's obvious to anyone outside the aviation bubble - that if the unions create this enormous inverted pyramid, with massive seniority determined T&C benefits for those at the top, for doing essentially the same job as those at the bottom .... then it is just an "accident" waiting to happen for the whole lot to be pushed over, with all the scales crashing down to the ground level.

Unfortunately (and probably as a result of the above) at BA, the ground level is very very low.

I must ask, how many industries outside of aviation have a traditional pyramid whereby senior staff, at the top, enjoy fewer benefits and less remuneration than those at the bottom with less service.

[Joe le Taxi]

So you're saying it's normal and inherently sustainable to have some people paid double and have infinitely better terms, when they're performing a pretty much identical task?

I think not.

[PC767]

So you're saying it's normal and inherently sustainable to have some people paid double and have infinitely better terms, when they're performing a pretty much identical task?

I think not.

I think so.

Does every Captain get paid the same? Should every long serving Captain be forced to earn the same as the newest Captain? Should experience, commitment and loyalty account for nothing?

The inverted pyramid you discussed is sustainable because those at the top are far fewer than those at the bottom.

[TOM100]

Rewarding people just on length of service is pretty dated - merit in most modern organisations is based on personal and company performance. Is it right a high performing employee should be paid less than an average performer just based on length of service ? Provided they both meet certain parameters - another view could be you want to reward and retain high performers and if the ones who just think it is their right as they’ve served their time - do the minimum, cynical ‘not like it used to be etc etc’ well an organisation might be happy for them to go........if your building high performing teams you need structures and reward to match not agreements designed in the 70’s.

[dirk85]

Define merit with reference to a pilot.

Number of diversions? Go arounds? Minutes of delays? Sick days? Fuel consumption?

What can possibly go wrong

[Joe le Taxi]

Indeed. So provided the pp34 pilots can prove to their paymasters they are twice as meritorious and productive as those in pp1, they have nothing to worry about!

[TOM100]

Exactly - it cuts both ways but there are other human, behavioural and additional contributions that can be measured (and some technical) that don’t conflict with safety. If you can’t demonstrate any you get a standard salary for grade. I”m not saying I agree but just putting another point of view. In the States to work on the ground everything is bid on seniority (look at the age profile for Florida stations). They get the job based on years of service (provided they meet a minimum) not because they are best at the job or have amazing customer service - is this how we would recruit for our own business ? Don’t shoot me down, just saying.....

[bex88]

If you can’t make revenue you have to go after the only other things you can control, like costs.....

I don’t think anyone with a half sensible outlook would argue against that. I think the issue is a temporary problem leading to permanent changes. What is so hard? Tell us what is needed and let us sort it out.

I must end it here because I have a bit of chair flying to do.

[aviationvictim]

Exactly - it cuts both ways but there are other human, behavioural and additional contributions that can be measured (and some technical) that don’t conflict with safety. If you can’t demonstrate any you get a standard salary for grade. I”m not saying I agree but just putting another point of view. In the States to work on the ground everything is bid on seniority (look at the age profile for Florida stations). They get the job based on years of service (provided they meet a minimum) not because they are best at the job or have amazing customer service - is this how we would recruit for our own business ? Don’t shoot me down, just saying.....

sure it’s another point of view but it’s idiotic none the less. You’re obviously not an airline pilot

[TOM100]

Thanks for acknowledging my point of view, I am an airline pilot btw just no longer for BA but I also have worked outside this sphere.

[Phantom4]

FWIW to BALPA who know this any contract signed under duress is void in law.

[777JRM]

Define merit with reference to a pilot.

Number of diversions? Go arounds? Minutes of delays? Sick days? Fuel consumption?

What can possibly go wrong

In China Southern, you can get a ‘safety bonus’ of $6000 per year.
For keeping quiet about any incidents?

[jimmievegas]

Does every Captain get paid the same?
No.
Should every long serving Captain be forced to earn the same as the newest Captain?
If they're doing an equivalent role with no extra responsibilities then yes - they should be earning the same.
Should experience, commitment and loyalty account for nothing?
No, loyalty doesn't count for anything. Experience should, hence why more experienced staff should be given more responsible roles, such as training capt.

[HundredPercentPlease]

hence why more experienced staff should be given more responsible roles, such as training capt.

Nonsense.

A TC role should be given to someone who is good at training. The skills required are mostly human (communication, empathy etc). It may be a 10,000 hour pilot would make a better trainer than a 20,000 hour pilot. But the 20,000 hour pilot is invaluable on the line for his experience, which is absorbed by co-pilots when they fly with them.

Rising salaries are normally paid to retain experience, which is a requirement in an airline.

[jimmievegas]

Fair point, replace the word "experience" with "aptitude" in my post. Those with aptitude should be given the more responsible roles. Sitting in the same job for 20 years is not, on its own, a good enough reason to be paid more.

[GS-Alpha]

The BA pilot pay structure chooses to reward loyalty. When you start, you earn below market rate (particularly if you obtain an early command), but you do so in the knowledge that your salary will rise over time and then you will one day be earning a decent salary. This actually benefits BA, so much so that when considering moving to a flatter pay structure several years ago, it was decided it would be far too costly to do! In my opinion, fair is being paid in accordance with what you signed up for when you joined the company, together with any negotiated changes thereafter. If you did not like the terms and conditions, why sign the contract? Given the above, it is common practice (certainly within BA) for new entrants to gradually have lesser terms and conditions because they can be more easily adjusted to reflect the ever reducing new entrant market rate.

As an example of how this benefits BA, I have only relatively recently started earning that higher wage and as it arrived I went part time. So BA have done rather nicely out of me - a full MPE at below general market rate and then a fraction of an MPE when I started earning that more costly salary. My lifetime earnings are considerably below those of an EasyJet pilot where such a salary structure does not exist.

For the cabin crew, yes I totally agree that many of the legacy crew are on a very decent wage. Do they deserve it? Yes I very much believe they do. That is the salary they were recruited on, and which was negotiated throughout their careers. Would BA like to reduce their unit costs by ending those salaries? Of course they would! But you cannot just change someone’s salary without negotiation - that is not playing fair. It has always been likely they would have more negotiating power to achieve their aim, once MF numbers were high enough. Just at they closed NAPS once BARP numbers became high enough. It is the game that BA plays. However, fire and rehire is totally unacceptable. That being said, whilst BA are going about this in a very aggressive way, I think attempting to avoid being consulted with at all, is a dangerous game to play.

[TOM100]

Hi GS Alpha - a very enlightening post. Just for clarity a part time post is not an MPE (manpower equivalent) it’s a HCE (head count equivalent) a full MPE (how BA measure it) would be a half MPE (part time role) and then, say, paying 2 other people the other equivalent half an MPE to make a whole. So if BA paid two people as 50% PT that is equivalent to 2 x HCE but 1 x MPE i.e the two people = 1 Manpower Equivalent. MPE is usually how they measure overtime etc so if you have 3 people earning lots of OT(3 x HCE) you would still have three people but with the OT costs could be equivalent to 5 people’s salary or 5 x MPE if that makes sense ? Semantics I know but there is a difference.

i also agree they have to attempt to talk and try and consult - no idea (especially as current circumstances unprecedented) how a court would view a blanket refusal to even attempt to consult. BA have filed the S188 as they are legally required so for BASSA to say we won’t talk until you remove it does seem a precarious position to take.

[HundredPercentPlease]

Fair point, replace the word "experience" with "aptitude" in my post. Those with aptitude should be given the more responsible roles. Sitting in the same job for 20 years is not, on its own, a good enough reason to be paid more.

Still no.

You can be the pilot with the greatest aptitude, but not so great at understanding and correcting a junior pilot's ways - and therefore you should never be a trainer.

As has been pointed out above, the top salary is "the" salary, and you have to suffer a discount on the way up there. At my airline, FO's are paid terribly (take home around £1400 after loan repayments) and they only stay as they are on the path to "the" salary. To then say that everyone should settle for the intermediate or lowest discounted salary is very wrong.

[TOM100]

Still no.

You can be the pilot with the greatest aptitude, but not so great at understanding and correcting a junior pilot's ways - and therefore you should never be a trainer.

As has been pointed out above, the top salary is "the" salary, and you have to suffer a discount on the way up there. At my airline, FO's are paid terribly (take home around £1400 after loan repayments) and they only stay as they are on the path to "the" salary. To then say that everyone should settle for the intermediate or lowest discounted salary is very wrong.

HPP - you are right, which is why the whole structure would need to be looked at from entry upwards. I am not sure BA will accept doing nothing is therefore the only option though. If they are looking for structural changes.

i guess if just looking for a temporary solution, when is temporary no longer temporary - 1 year, 5 years, when margins return to pre-Covid levels ? BALPA have a tough negotiation.

[GS-Alpha]

TOM100, my understanding is that if full time, you are 1 x MPE, and if say 50% part time, you are 0.5 x MPE (hence why I said I am now a fraction of an MPE). I think that is what you are saying too? Or am I still misunderstanding? Either way, going part time as you start earning above market rate works nicely in their favour with such a salary structure, enabling them to have their cake and eat it so to speak. The incremental pay structure has more benefits than disadvantages for the company which is why they continue to support it. (They love to focus on the disadvantages because it helps to keep their inflationary pay negotiations suppressed).

[PC767]

i also agree they have to attempt to talk and try and consult - no idea (especially as current circumstances unprecedented) how a court would view a blanket refusal to even attempt to consult. BA have filed the S188 as they are legally required so for BASSA to say we won’t talk until you remove it does seem a precarious position to take.

For clarity the position, precarious or otherwise, is coordinated by Unite and GMB who are heading the stance against BA and requiring the S188 to be rescinded. For further clarity, consultation in this context is worthless. Negotiation and consultation have very different responsibilities and outcomes. BALPA were in negotiations due to their starting position of not being furloughed; look what happened. Consultation provides no protection or influence for members of unions affiliated to unite or GMB.

[PC767]

I believe today is the deadline for BA to register pilots to the furlough scheme. Not doing so may be an indication of BA’s intentions going forward.

[Wireless]

I believe today is the deadline for BA to register pilots to the furlough scheme. Not doing so may be an indication of BA’s intentions going forward.

Your thoughts - in what way?

[Plastic787]

Well knowing BA it must have crossed their mind to furlough those at risk knowing there’s a good chance they can take advantage of “the grey” in order to then make those people redundant and pay them
their notice in accordance with their reduced monthly furlough pay.

[Wireless]

Cheers plastic. I thought that. As it’s not happening now I wondered what PC thought it indicated

[TOM100]

PC767 - my point exactly, I am guessing there is no recent precedent of consulting (or negotiating) whilst furloughed due to a pandemic. Not all the senior Unite key players are necessarily furloughed and the concept is untested so I guess high risk on both sides.....is it reasonable to say Len McClunky et al could have engaged as head and senior bods at Unite who are not furloughed, do the reps gets employed outside BA by Unite to represent members ? I really don’t know.....am sure both sides are getting expensive legal advice........

[guy_incognito]

To play Devil's advocate: in an airline environment where the roles of captain and first officer are clearly defined and require only a minimum standard to be met and maintained, why should a company value loyalty, and why should salaries increase the longer you've been there. Companies in every sector only pay the minimum salary they need to retain staff. I'd suggest that the salaries on offer for pilots are still FAR in excess of what people would accept.

[GKOC41]

Hi GS Alpha - a very enlightening post. Just for clarity a part time post is not an MPE (manpower equivalent) it’s a HCE (head count equivalent) a full MPE (how BA measure it) would be a half MPE (part time role) and then, say, paying 2 other people the other equivalent half an MPE to make a whole. So if BA paid two people as 50% PT that is equivalent to 2 x HCE but 1 x MPE i.e the two people = 1 Manpower Equivalent. MPE is usually how they measure overtime etc so if you have 3 people earning lots of OT(3 x HCE) you would still have three people but with the OT costs could be equivalent to 5 people’s salary or 5 x MPE if that makes sense ? Semantics I know but there is a difference.

i also agree they have to attempt to talk and try and consult - no idea (especially as current circumstances unprecedented) how a court would view a blanket refusal to even attempt to consult. BA have filed the S188 as they are legally required so for BASSA to say we won’t talk until you remove it does seem a precarious position to take.

**** thats complicated. Every other gaff uses FTE Full Time Equivalent

[Tartiflette Fan]

@ GS-Alpha

I am not involved, but as I see it the only real questions at the moment are:

1) Is BA's action legal ( short-term) ?
2) What are the effects (medium/long-term ) ?

[TOM100]

I believe FTE and MPE are the same essentially......dunno why BA use MPE Think it is to do with factoring OT hours rather than just physical heads, we digress....

[Busdriver01]

Well knowing BA it must have crossed their mind to furlough those at risk knowing there’s a good chance they can take advantage of “the grey” in order to then make those people redundant and pay them
their notice in accordance with their reduced monthly furlough pay.

I have it on good authority that BA have declined to put any pilot on furlough from tonight’s deadline.

Can’t be that strapped for cash...

[wiggy]

Can’t be that strapped for cash...

But in other news they are also playing the "look how strapped for cash we are" card..

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jun/10/ba-auction-art-collection-coronavirus

[TOM100]

Sounds familiar......

BBC News | ARTS | Aer Lingus sells artwork (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/1669238.stm)

[Busdriver01]

But in other news they are also playing the "look how strapped for cash we are" crad..

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jun/10/ba-auction-art-collection-coronavirus

:} I’ve seen it all now.

[FlipFlapFlop]

Paisley and Renfrewshire North MP Gavin Newlands is bringing forward an emergency bill to the House of Commons which, if passed, will prevent companies from dismissing staff and rehiring them on contracts with worse terms.

Probably won't get parliamentary support, but if it does ???? Greater number of overall pilot redundancies out of revenge and because it will mainly be cheaper LIFO sacrifices ?

[Private jet]

I left 22 years ago, but one thing that has not been mentioned is the billion pound "black hole" in NAPS. I appreciate that has been closed to new contributions and accruals for some time, but there must be quite a few crew on all "teams" that have a big vested interest in ensuring BA keep paying into the scheme to fill the black hole? Was £300 million a year afaik before Corona. Even a 10% reduction of pension over a potential 20+ year retirement (even in this day and age) equates to a lot of cash.

[NoelEvans]

A 'final salary' pension scheme that was a British Airways responsibility less than 15 years ago will be paying out 35% less to existing pensioners from August this year.

Be very worried if you are in an underfunded final salary pension scheme within the 'BA realm'.

[king surf]

[QUOTE=NoelEvans;10808186]A 'final salary' pension scheme that was a British Airways responsibility less than 15 years ago will be paying out 35% less to existing pensioners from August this year.

Be very worried if you are in an underfunded final salary pension scheme within the 'BA realm'.[/QUOT
what is the source for this 35% drop!!

[anson harris]

why should a company value loyalty


Well they maintain a seniority system which stops anyone ever leaving, so I'm guessing they place some value on it.

[TOM100]

This might not help the dynamics of the relationship (not that there is much of one anyway).

https://www.travelweekly.co.uk/articles/374696/unite-union-urges-ec-to-block-iag-acquisition-of-air-europa

[777JRM]

Sounds familiar......

BBC News | ARTS | Aer Lingus sells artwork (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/1669238.stm)


Indeed. The same PR job. One-trick pony.

[777JRM]

A 'final salary' pension scheme that was a British Airways responsibility less than 15 years ago will be paying out 35% less to existing pensioners from August this year.

Be very worried if you are in an underfunded final salary pension scheme within the 'BA realm'.

This may be nonsense.
What is your source?

I believe that once in payment, the pension is safe.
Also, I believe legally safe, is the ring-fenced NAPS pension.

Ironically, the amount saved from closing NAPS almost exactly equates to the ‘special dividend’ paid out to shareholders last year.

[GS-Alpha]

This may be nonsense.
What is your source?

I believe that once in payment, the pension is safe.
Also, I believe legally safe, is the ring-fenced NAPS pension.

Ironically, the amount saved from closing NAPS almost exactly equates to the ‘special dividend’ paid out to shareholders last year.
I think Noel might be talking about the BMI scheme, and the sequence of events which ultimately led to it entering the PPF?

[king surf]

I have just been on my NAPS website and there is no mention of this 35%cut . I always thought that one you were drawing a pension it was safe. Who knows these days!

[Private jet]

As I understand it, once a pension is in payment then it is protected for life and paid in accordance with the rules of the scheme, even if that means cannibalizing the future pensions of those not yet drawing them. (Doesn't seem very fair to me, but when was anything to do with finance ever "fair"?) However I understand that the company is legally obliged to make up the shortfall, if it can... What I was highlighting is the fact that if BA doesn't make money in future and can't pay their £300 million a year "fill in" then the black hole shortfall will persist and at some point the pensions for those taking them in the future will have to be cut. There must be plenty of NAPS members still in the employ of BA who will stand to lose a lot of money if BA does not "thrive" in future and to a lesser extent deferred members like myself. So salary cut now or smaller pension later?

[TURIN]

There is only a shortfall if all the liabilities have to be payed. They don't and never have done. The billion pound shortfall was and is nonsense. It makes so many assumptions its laughable. When NAPS was closed, the argument used to say it was unsustainable was based on all members having a life expectancy of 93 (women) and 92 (men). The actual life expectancy is a lot lower. Funny that. ONS Life Expectancy UK (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/lifeexpectancies/bulletins/pastandprojecteddatafromtheperiodandcohortlifetables/1981to2068)

[NoelEvans]

This may be nonsense.
...
NOT nonsense. (Received in 'black and white' through the post.)

...
What is your source?
...
BRAL Final Salary Pension Scheme. Effective from August 2020 payments.

[TURIN]

You're right. IoM not covered by the PPS.

https://www.pensionsage.com/pa/Flybe-pension-scheme-members-not-entitled-to-PPF-protection.php

Disgraceful!

[777JRM]

What NoelEvans wrote. My letter didn’t even include my name! 35% reduction for an in-payment member. I understand that those not yet in payment may lose it all.


Disgraceful.
Was it still a ‘live’ scheme, or closed (ring-fenced) up to a certain date?

[NoelEvans]

It was under BA's wing (excuse the pun) from March 2001 to March 2007.

I don't think that it was fully funded at any stage during that time (can someone correct me on that?).

Don't get too excited about what PPS can do.

[ILS27LEFT]

You're right. IoM not covered by the PPS.



Disgraceful!

Shareholders must have full control however it needs to be a fair system,.
Example: Nationwide (The Building Society) regularly asks member to vote for decisions but we all know that 99.9% of members just select the "quick vote" option so all remuneration packages are approved by members. There is no alternative anyway. At the top they know this is a trick and it works very well.
This type of system needs to change.
Employees must be shareholders and control their Senior Management otherwise greed will destroy the industry.
The entire BA saga is a joke: greed vs common sense (including social responsibility, environmental impact. human beings well-being/personal health etc.), greed seems to always win under the present rules, this needs to change.
Let's not forget that greed alone is a false economy even for tax payers as the public costs associated to excessive unregulated greed is immense for society ranging from mental health to work-related stress --->NHS additional costs. social impact and more implications.
There is no point in being a very stressed and over-worked young pilot on 50-80K p.a. when in a few years we will end up all highly stressed/ill and surrounded by millions of unemployed without homes ready to riot against us. We have just seen it happening somewhere else and it could have easily got out of control.
I am not a socialist at all, rather the opposite to be honest, however I strongly believe that this unprecedented crisis s proving that we must change the rules of unregulated greedy capitalism or it we all will end up in a very uncomfortable situation.
Many of us would love to go part time, yes less money but much happier & healthy in the end. Much safer too. This concept should apply to all, including WW and AC,.

[hec7or]

BRAL (British Regional Airlines Limited) pension problems won't affect most BA employees

[Longtimer]

Re pensions and how they are funded. It varies from country to country so one size does not fit all. If the fund is fully funded and the company folds, that is one senario, If on the other hand the fund is not fully funded then the pay out could be reduced or the fund might have first rights on the breakup value of the airline or be left sucking the hind tit. Again it all depends upon the laws of the country in which the pension / funds are vested.

[Albert Hall]

Prepare for a day of BA across the media headlines tomorrow as the Transport Select Committee publishes a pretty brutal report, so I'm told.

[Jet II]

Published on a Saturday?

[PC767]

Mr Merriman was very certain that the report would be finalised and published prior to the 15th of June. That day being the initial proposed day of redundancy and contract change.

[Chris2303]

Bad news is usually published at the weekend.

If it's really bad it is published early on Sunday evening

[Albert Hall]

Draft report and press statement was issued to the media last night with a reporting restriction until midnight tonight when the report will be published. I imagine the BA press office has been a very busy place today.

[Raph737]

Fair play to the cabin crew, their Union’s nuclear response may force BA to engage after all, MP’s from all sides have been tweeting about the report. The pilots owe their colleagues an apology, should have fought this together.

I’m not surprised at this government lack of resolve and completely shambolic response to this crisis, I’m just surprised that so many pilots and crew still support the Tories when they were ALWAYS pro corporations. I still remember David Cameron telling Cabin crew to get back to work in the 2010 strikes, completely undermining the effort. Naïveté to Believe Boris gives a dam about the average worker...

I hope they win this or find some sort of compromise, for my friends who are about to lose their jobs!

[CaptainSox]

[QUOTE=Raph737;10809614]Fair play to the cabin crew, their Union’s nuclear response may force BA to engage after all, MP’s from all sides have been tweeting about the report. The pilots owe their colleagues an apology, should have fought this together.

All the pilots I know back cabin crew, long serving professionals who make BA. Pilots have been following in accordance with the union. To suggest flight deck owe cabin crew an apology is unfounded and leads to more division.

[FACoff]

Fair play to the cabin crew, their Union’s nuclear response may force BA to engage after all, MP’s from all sides have been tweeting about the report. The pilots owe their colleagues an apology, should have fought this together.

Just to be clear, BA pilots went on strike over the "joint" pay claim last year, when both GMB and Unite capitulated at the first hurdle. I respect our colleagues and applaud them for what they're doing but we certainly don't owe them any apologies. We're simply following the guidance of our union.

I’m not surprised at this government lack of resolve and completely shambolic response to this crisis, I’m just surprised that so many pilots and crew still support the Tories when they were ALWAYS pro corporations.

I'd have voted labour last time round if we'd had someone electable at the top - thankfully we now do. I am sick to the back teeth of seeing CEO after CEO pocket millions whilst standing on the shoulders of their hard working employees who don't see a penny. Capitalism has gone nuts and it needs to stop.

[Right Way Up]

https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/153/transport-committee/news/146878/committee-report-condemns-behaviour-of-british-airways/

[Oh gaim]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53027776

[wiggy]

Just to be clear, BA pilots went on strike over the "joint" pay claim last year, when both GMB and Unite capitulated at the first hurdle. I respect our colleagues and applaud them for what they're doing but we certainly don't owe them any apologies.

They were then also quite happy to sit back and potentially benefit from a "me too" clause whilst the pilots continued to stick their necks out..

Anyhow next we have to wait and see whether said campaign and the MPs comments' have any effect at all on BA.

[guy_incognito]

They were then also quite happy to sit back and potentially benefit from a "me too" clause whilst the pilots continued to stick their necks out..

Anyhow next we have to wait and see whether said campaign and the MPs comments' have any effect at all on BA.

Sadly, and I really hope I’m wrong, I don’t see it having any effect whatsoever. The government has no power under current legislation to do anything to sanction BA/ IAG beyond writing strongly worded letters. WW knows that. Further, the government has no interest in bringing forward legislation that would change the situation. The general public don’t and won’t care.

This could prove to be a pivotal moment for employer/ employee relations in the UK, not just in the aviation industry. I’m absolutely sure that managers in all sectors are eagerly awaiting the results, to see just how far they can go when screwing over employees.

For years I’ve seen people on PPRUNE talk about ‘the race to the bottom’. Unfortunately it seems absolutely clear that we were nowhere near the bottom before, and there’s still a long way to go. Aviation as a career is dead.

[wiggy]

Sadly, and I really hope I’m wrong, I don’t see it having any effect whatsoever. The government has no power under current legislation to do anything to sanction BA/ IAG beyond writing strongly worded letters. WW knows that. Further, the government has no interest in bringing forward legislation that would change the situation. The general public don’t and won’t care.
.

I've had a few conversations that some of the general public (including some fairly high tier card holders) actually do care ... whether that "care" survives one minute of whatever back to flying seat sale BA offer is another matter.

There's no doubt the brand is taking another hammering and that is not down to the actions of the front line staff...

[Oh gaim]

Good point from Huw on the beeb this morning.

He asked WW to make any terms cuts temporary until market conditions improve and WW outright refused - making it clear that this is not about the pandemic.

Also he referenced the legacy fares for LCC wages (and service particularly in Europe these days). How sustainable will that be at legacy fares.

[wiggy]

Also he referenced the legacy fares for LCC wages (and service particularly in Europe these days). How sustainable will that be at legacy fares.

Depends what you mean by legacy fares...I think some feel anything more than a tenner is outrageous and if they pay more for the flight than for airport car parking they have been ripped off...

Not all BA fares are of a stratospheric,"legacy" nature, and OTOH I've certainly been stung by eye watering "legacy" style fares when travelling on a LCC....

[ExSp33db1rd]

............and WW outright refused

Why should he worry, isn't he leaving in September with his £3.2 million retirement (package) plus his "Lifetime" rebate staff travel - which he removed from everyone else a few years ago ?

[A320LGW]

How long will he be around to use it? People with hearts of stone rarely feel any joy in their lives, his unlimited travel rebate will mean little to him and nor will the money. We may not have a fraction of the wealth he has but I'm willing to bet we are a lot happier than he and those like him are. There are things in life no business sense nor money can buy, he looks ill to be frank about things, his face is not that of a man I'd like to be, regardless of what my bank account would look like.

[thetimesreader84]

Someone’s been watching too much Disney+.

But i I will say, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a picture of WW where he’s genuinely smiling.

[TURIN]

They were then also quite happy to sit back and potentially benefit from a "me too" clause whilst the pilots continued to stick their necks out..

Anyhow next we have to wait and see whether said campaign and the MPs comments' have any effect at all on BA.

*cough cough* bonus payments not available to other staff who weren't even aware of them before negotiations ended...*cough

[king surf]

From the "worlds favourite airline" to a national disgrace. What a neat trick!

[A320LGW]

Someone’s been watching too much Disney+.

But i I will say, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a picture of WW where he’s genuinely smiling.

The situation in my present airline could well be described as a Disney movie yes, all characters present!

[esscee]

If WW uses BA in future and is sitting in the "nice seat area", it could be interesting to watch as he gets cabin service. Whoops sorry sir as gets drink spilled over him. To be honest it would be very brave of him to fly BA from now on.

[Jet II]

Also he referenced the legacy fares for LCC wages (and service particularly in Europe these days). How sustainable will that be at legacy fares.


Well I have flown short haul a few times out of LGW with BA and the fares were quite comparable the the Low Cost Carriers - even Long Haul BA fares dont seem to be that much out of kilter with the competition so I dont think his argument there has much meat.

[TOM100]

isn’t that the point being made ? BA has to compete with the LCCs on price but with legacy costs ?

[FlipFlapFlop]

Hmmmm

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/0612/1147159-aer-lingus-recovery-plan/ (https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/0612/1147159-aer-lingus-recovery-plan/)

[Jet II]

Interesting - it means that basically all staff at Aer Lingus are now on Zero Hours Contracts and that the contract changes are now permanent. Not sure the Unions in the UK would have gone along with that.

[wiggy]

isn’t that the point being made ? BA has to compete with the LCCs on price but with legacy costs ?

It may be a moot point ATM but an observation - Pre COVID BA was managing to make more than 1 Billion profit per annum despite these "legacy" costs ( which in the Cabin Crew arena were reducing anyway as the percentage of Cabin Crew on "legacy" contracts reduced).

[Not my job mate]

Interesting - it means that basically all staff at Aer Lingus are now on Zero Hours Contracts and that the contract changes are now permanent. Not sure the Unions in the UK would have gone along with that.

Kind of puts a dent into the Unite and GMB argument that BA are the only airline that is taking any pain within the IAG group. I think their stance of not engaging with the company is crazy and will be seen as such in a few months time. Maybe they will start talking when I have a letter in my hand ! Unfortunately it will be a slightly harder negotiation then.

[TURIN]

Sadly, negotiating doesn't seem to have done BALPA any good. In fact many would argue it's made things worse for pilots.

[hec7or]

It doesn't affect BALPA at all, they will still have their jobs long after ours are gone.

[ExSp33db1rd]

But i I will say, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a picture of WW where he’s genuinely smiling.

But as my father used to remark about the wealthy - " at least they can be miserable in comfort ".

[A320LGW]

https://www-rte-ie.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/www.rte.ie/amp/1147229/


The previous article posted here has been reneged on by RTE who seem to have realised their error, Aer Lingus have not reached agreement at all with the unions yet. Cabin crew are to be balloted and the pilots are still engaging in negotiations via IALPA who are adamant that any changes are to be temporary.

[777JRM]

It may be a moot point ATM but an observation - Pre COVID BA was managing to make more than 1 Billion profit per annum despite these "legacy" costs ( which in the Cabin Crew arena were reducing anyway as the percentage of Cabin Crew on "legacy" contracts reduced).


In fact, BA was making €2bn profit with these same cost structures.
Last year was the second highest ever, I think.
That’s 2/3rds of IAG total profit, yet BA will take most of the ‘pain’.

One might also ask: Why should just the employees take the pain for poor fuel-hedging decisions that cost €1.3bn.
When will we see shareholders take some of that pain, eg, in a rights issue perhaps?
I think the Qataris can afford it.

And yes, as Mixed Fleet expands and Legacy retire off, the costs go down anyway.

[GKOC41]

Good point from Huw on the beeb this morning.

He asked WW to make any terms cuts temporary until market conditions improve and WW outright refused - making it clear that this is not about the pandemic.

Also he referenced the legacy fares for LCC wages (and service particularly in Europe these days). How sustainable will that be at legacy fares.

I assume WW will go after all the Directors, Managers and give them a nice pay cut also. Don't get me wrong BA need to make cuts to numbers. But I i'm struggling to see many other airlines go after T+C also. And he'll come back for more you know that. In most Airlines it's normally the 5% that have to be managed. BA seems to have made that 95% by their actions.

[polax52]

In fact, BA was making €2bn profit with these same cost structures.
Last year was the second highest ever, I think.
That’s 2/3rds of IAG total profit, yet BA will take most of the ‘pain’.

One might also ask: Why should just the employees take the pain for poor fuel-hedging decisions that cost €1.3bn.
When will we see shareholders take some of that pain, eg, in a rights issue perhaps?
I think the Qataris can afford it.

And yes, as Mixed Fleet expands and Legacy retire off, the costs go down anyway.

Unfortunately you're looking at rescuing what you hope is a secure and prosperous future. You're hoping for union or government intervention to make that happen. In the real, pure captitalist world, the market value of our profession as a "British Passport holding" Airline pilot has collapsed. There are experienced Captains out there right now that would bite your hand off for £20,000 per year. There are no expat jobs out there, there won't be jobs for British Pilots in Europe going forward. In the British socialist world, maybe we can prop up the salaries for a little longer.

We are kind of similar to WTI crude oil on April 20th. But our supply can't be so easily turned off.

[OUASrules!]

Interesting - it means that basically all staff at Aer Lingus are now on Zero Hours Contracts and that the contract changes are now permanent. Not sure the Unions in the UK would have gone along with that.

This is not strictly true. Agreement has to be ratified still. As has been said already, pilots are negotiating separately through IALPA and, by the looks of it, are in no where near the same space as colleagues in the UK. A very different approach it would appear, and potentially a very different (and far more positive) outcome. I agree, BA aren’t the only airline within the group taking pain, but they are most definitely taking the lions share.

I wish you all well, these are nasty times. Sad to see those at the top of the organisation show their true colours.

Keep fighting, keep the unity and keep the faith. I look forward to hearing you all over the airwaves again soon.

[777JRM]

Unfortunately you're looking at rescuing what you hope is a secure and prosperous future. You're hoping for union or government intervention to make that happen. In the real, pure captitalist world, the market value of our profession as a "British Passport holding" Airline pilot has collapsed. There are experienced Captains out there right now that would bite your hand off for £20,000 per year. There are no expat jobs out there, there won't be jobs for British Pilots in Europe going forward. In the British socialist world, maybe we can prop up the salaries for a little longer.

We are kind of similar to WTI crude oil on April 20th. But our supply can't be so easily turned off.


I suspect that everything you just said in your doomcast email is wrong.

Look at all the airlines who are ramping up services for June and July (Wizzair, Ryanair, Turkish (no lay-offs), Thai (no lay-offs)), despite the illogical 14-day quarantine period.

Where is your evidence for experienced captains right now who would bite your hand off for £20k a year?

[GS-Alpha]

There are experienced Captains out there right now that would bite your hand off for £20,000 per year.
I do not believe that for one second. Why would they even consider it? Far better to go earn £20k doing pretty much any other job and wait it out for a better flying salary.

[kungfu panda]

You guys are dreaming as well. Polax has it right. There'll be 1500 experienced longhaul Pilots coming from Emirates, largely European, most of those British. Another several hundred coming out of Qatar. Plus Saudia, Oman, Kuwait, possibly Flydubai and Etihad, all laying off 100+.
There are no expat jobs to go to in the far East.

Pilots will accept any money right now just to keep their licences current. They will not leave the industry.

[esscee]

To paraphrase from the past - "No Captain would get out of bed for £20,000 per year."

[GS-Alpha]

If people accept such low salaries, they won’t be temporary, they’ll be permanent. If that’s what they want, that’s their choice, but I don’t believe it.

[Denti]

Nobody wants that. But many pilots do not have much in terms of up to date transferable skills and at the end of the day need to put some food on the table and pay for a roof over their (and their families) head. Not everybody was sensible enough to build a rainy day fund that allows them to stay unemployed for more than a few months.

[777JRM]

Sure there will be a surplus.
What will the airlines do when things pick up?
Expansion, or do nothing?
And don’t forget the importance of air cargo.

Wizzair say their recovery will take 12 months.
Maybe a bit optimistic, but they have good liquidity.

I remember reading somewhere that pre-Covid, China alone were forecasting needing 5000 pilots PER YEAR.

[TURIN]

You guys are dreaming as well. Polax has it right. There'll be 1500 experienced longhaul Pilots coming from Emirates, largely European, most of those British. Another several hundred coming out of Qatar. Plus Saudia, Oman, Kuwait, possibly Flydubai and Etihad, all laying off 100+.
There are no expat jobs to go to in the far East.

Pilots will accept any money right now just to keep their licences current. They will not leave the industry.


I am not a pilot, but I do have a licence to work on aircraft, it too needs to remain current. However, if my salary drops to £20k I will definately be leaving the industry. I still need to pay the mortgage and if I can beat £20k doing a job that requires less skill and responsibility I'll take it for that kind of money.

A chap told me a story once about a negotiation within an airline. The mamagement stated directly to the reps that they should consider themselve lucky to have a job. The rep looked up and quietly said "Lucky to have a job? Listen pal, I choose to sell you my expertise, skill and experience, you are buying my free time"

It still applies today.

Good luck everyone, D-day is upon us.

[guy_incognito]

The issue is that most pilots aren't qualified for anything other than minimum wage work if they're not flying. That works out at less than £20k a year.

I wonder if licensed engineers may be in a better position with more transferable skills.

[GS-Alpha]

I would like to think most if not all pilots have better forward thinking skills than a 2 year old who takes 1 sweet now rather than waiting and being rewarded with 4 sweets later. If they are not, then they only have themselves to blame. No way would I do my job for £20k a year.

[guy_incognito]

I'd like to think that too. Sadly I fear it is wishful thinking.

[Jet II]

I would like to think most if not all pilots have better forward thinking skills than a 2 year old who takes 1 sweet now rather than waiting and being rewarded with 4 sweets later. If they are not, then they only have themselves to blame. No way would I do my job for £20k a year.


But what if the option was no job?. Lets say you have just been made redundant from a ME carrier and the only offer on the table is at BA Flight Crew starting pay (currently £26k I believe). Would you take that job simply to keep current and rack up the hours until the industry improves maybe in 3 or 4 years and then you can find something better - or would you leave the industry and do something else that you may not have any qualifications for and for which there may be no jobs available anyway in the current economic climate?

[Capewell]

BA flight crew starting salary is not 26k. That was for the cadet program which was stopped years ago.

[kungfu panda]

But what if the option was no job?. Lets say you have just been made redundant from a ME carrier and the only offer on the table is at BA Flight Crew starting pay (currently £26k I believe). Would you take that job simply to keep current and rack up the hours until the industry improves maybe in 3 or 4 years and then you can find something better - or would you leave the industry and do something else that you may not have any qualifications for and for which there may be no jobs available anyway in the current economic climate?

Even if you got the starting salary wrong. You hit the nail on the head. They'll just change the starting salary in any case.
This is what will happen unless the current BA crew tow the line. That will be very painful for them.

[GS-Alpha]

But what if the option was no job?. Lets say you have just been made redundant from a ME carrier and the only offer on the table is at BA Flight Crew starting pay (currently £26k I believe). Would you take that job simply to keep current and rack up the hours until the industry improves maybe in 3 or 4 years and then you can find something better - or would you leave the industry and do something else that you may not have any qualifications for and for which there may be no jobs available anyway in the current economic climate?
I have spent most of lockdown thinking my career of twenty odd years is now over, but I am still waiting to find out for sure. However, whilst considering my options, not once have I considered trying to find another flying job earning £20k a year. If that is where the career is headed, I for one would rather leave it behind. There are loads of things you can do to earn that kind of money, although I personally have considerably more ambition.

[kungfu panda]

The point though is that plenty of people will accept those salaries in order to stay current and in the expectation of the good times returning a few years from now.

If you leave the industry, it's very difficult to return.

[GS-Alpha]

And my point is if you under sell your skills to that degree, the good times will never return.

[kungfu panda]

That's going to be a fight between yourselves and BA management because they clearly believe that the market value of your skills is below that which you believe. Fortunately for you, Britain is not entirely a market economy.

[Jet II]

I have spent most of lockdown thinking my career of twenty odd years is now over, but I am still waiting to find out for sure. However, whilst considering my options, not once have I considered trying to find another flying job earning £20k a year. If that is where the career is headed, I for one would rather leave it behind. There are loads of things you can do to earn that kind of money, although I personally have considerably more ambition.

But how is it any different from the ambition of any new starter at a LCC who takes whatever job they can get simply to get current and rack up the hours? - they all have the ambition that things will improve in the future and that they can move on to better things.

Currently there is a glut of pilots on the market and for those that wish to stay in the industry and have no job their options are extremely limited. The forecasts are that the industry will recover in about 3 - 4 years so someone who is currently unemployed but wishes to keep flying will find a job that only pays basic wages for a short time quite attractive at the moment I would suggest.

Good luck to you and I hope it all works out - having gone through several crisis in the Industry before (9/11, SARS etc) where I was made redundant and even had to get out of the industry for a while I'm glad that I am now retired and not facing the difficult decisions all you guys are now having to make.

[SaulGoodman]

Being made redundant myself in the last financial crisis with a ****ty type rating and very few hours I can feel your pain BUT:

Although it does not seem likely right now but there will come better times. Always have been, always will. Give it a year. Drive a van for DHL or stack shelves at Tesco’s but do not fly for free. Seriously have some decency and be patient. Better times WILL come! People will fly.

[Flying Clog]

When your neighbours in your Emirates village are topping themselves, and the ambulances keep flying past, it brings things into perspective.

I have it on first hand that these pilots, a380 15 year skippers amongst them, are willing to work for free for the foreseeable to keep themselves current for the upswing. That's what you're up against BA.

They've got enough of a rainy day fund to see themselves through 3 years no salary or 20k gbp or whatever, but not 20 years no career. And your awful higher BA management will take full advantage of that. And permanently.

It's not on.

[GS-Alpha]

That's going to be a fight between yourselves and BA management because they clearly believe that the market value of your skills is below that which you believe.
How have you drawn that conclusion from anything I have said?

[GS-Alpha]

I have it on first hand that these pilots, a380 15 year skippers amongst them, are willing to work for free for the foreseeable to keep themselves current for the upswing.
Well if that is truly the case, they will kill the career and never earn a reasonable salary for their skills. With several years of financial contingency, they would be far wiser to retrain to do something else. If things recover, they continue their flying career with new skills under their belt. If things do not recover, they embark on their new careers.

[thetimesreader84]

I have it on first hand that these pilots, a380 15 year skippers amongst them, are willing to work for free for the foreseeable to keep themselves current for the upswing. That's what you're up against BA.

They've got enough of a rainy day fund to see themselves through 3 years no salary or 20k gbp or whatever, but not 20 years no career.

So what’s their plan at the end of the 3 years? Try & get their old salary back? Once those kind of Ts & Cs are out of the box, they won’t go back in.

It's not on.

agreed.

[TheAirMission]

Walsh comes out fighting against the government report.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1241x1694/83141849_1131506443891876_2927406345333661860_n_2ec7ba550cd4 76f93c2a58b2ff83a8c74592c920.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1241x962/102827257_356724808654129_861390294943736840_n_f2cadc3b3ceb1 e35c6f33b1323b60c1bbfb784a0.jpg

[Jet II]

Doesnt look like WW is in the mood to back down. And I do think he has a point that it is a bit of a cheek for Huw Merriman to complain when it is his Party who have introduced the 14 day quarantine (and the 2 meter distancing) that is effectively killing the industry.

[hunterboy]

Out of interest, who are these 15 yr a380 skippers going to fly for if virtually every airline is downsizing their A380 fleets? I’d be more concerned about the 777 guys being let go as they are a bit more useful without having to pay for conversions, etc.

[ZFT]

I suspect that everything you just said in your doomcast email is wrong.

Look at all the airlines who are ramping up services for June and July (Wizzair, Ryanair, Turkish (no lay-offs), Thai (no lay-offs)), despite the illogical 14-day quarantine period.

Where is your evidence for experienced captains right now who would bite your hand off for £20k a year?

TG aren't operating an services until August at the earliest

[Bidule]

they would be far wiser to retrain to do something else. .

Do you actually believe there are a lot of jobs available, whichever the sector is?

.

[Busdriver01]

That's going to be a fight between yourselves and BA management because they clearly believe that the market value of your skills is below that which you believe.

Is it that they believe the price is too high, or that they know it’s the going rate but just don’t care because they’ve found an opportunity they otherwise would never have found to reduce terms anyway?

[GS-Alpha]

Do you actually believe there are a lot of jobs available, whichever the sector is?

.
No I do not.

[guy_incognito]

Of course I do not. This is why I said I would use the time to retrain. Anyway, this is now the last comment I shall make on the subject. I wish I had never bothered. If people really do think the job is worth doing for a lifetime on £20k, they are welcome to it.

In my opinion, the job was barely worth doing on the salaries hitherto offered. It's clear that airline management industry wide has long had pilot Ts&Cs firmly in their sites and this crisis has provided them with the golden opportunity to swing the axe. Even any changes presented as "temporary" will inevitably turn out to be not so temporary.

The problem lies in the fact that very few pilots have the qualifications and experience to go and do anything else, without making a significant investment in terms of time and money. WW, PB at easy, MOL etc. all know that they have pilots over a barrel, and that they can offer literally anything they want knowing that the majority of people will sign up just to keep some money coming in. Maybe people will sign up thinking that the "good times" will return. Clearly demand will rise at some point in the industry, but with a seemingly never-ending queue of kids (or their parents) willing to pay £120k for flight training, there's no reason to think that Ts&Cs will ever return to the level we saw three months ago.

[TheAirMission]

but with a seemingly never-ending queue of kids (or their parents) willing to pay £120k for flight training, there's no reason to think that Ts&Cs will ever return to the level we saw three months ago.

Yes, blame the kids. Not all are stereotypically rich family children. Most parents have bent over backward to provide their kids with their dream ambition. You would probably do similar steps if your children were adamant for a certain career. Having been lucky to be in a situation where I was able to attend a 'big' flight school should I have not gone just so the number you talk about became slightly less? The decline in the T&Cs at the top of the ecosystem is not caused by the those at the bottom who enter. Get a grip, become a union rep, walk the walk, instead of writing utter crap.

[777JRM]

Is it that they believe the price is too high, or that they know it’s the going rate but just don’t care because they’ve found an opportunity they otherwise would never have found to reduce terms anyway?

The latter.

[777JRM]

In my opinion, the job was barely worth doing on the salaries hitherto offered. It's clear that airline management industry wide has long had pilot Ts&Cs firmly in their sites and this crisis has provided them with the golden opportunity to swing the axe. Even any changes presented as "temporary" will inevitably turn out to be not so temporary.

The problem lies in the fact that very few pilots have the qualifications and experience to go and do anything else, without making a significant investment in terms of time and money. WW, PB at easy, MOL etc. all know that they have pilots over a barrel, and that they can offer literally anything they want knowing that the majority of people will sign up just to keep some money coming in. Maybe people will sign up thinking that the "good times" will return. Clearly demand will rise at some point in the industry, but with a seemingly never-ending queue of kids (or their parents) willing to pay £120k for flight training, there's no reason to think that Ts&Cs will ever return to the level we saw three months ago.


Once Ts & Cs are trashed, this will no longer be a sought-after career, with all the initial training costs, continual pressure from fatigue (FTL limits set as targets), being away from home, sim checks, medicals, etc, and the ultimate responsibilty of many lives.

Who knows in how many years, but I think there will be a global shortage.
Unless of course the industry will change with technology to a single pilot with a ground-based back-up, or even no pilots at all!

[guy_incognito]

Yes, blame the kids. Not all are stereotypically rich family children. Most parents have bent over backward to provide their kids with their dream ambition. You would probably do similar steps if your children were adamant for a certain career. Having been lucky to be in a situation where I was able to attend a 'big' flight school should I have not gone just so the number you talk about became slightly less? The decline in the T&Cs at the top of the ecosystem is not caused by the those at the bottom who enter. Get a grip, become a union rep, walk the walk, instead of writing utter crap.

I'm not blaming anyone for it. It's a fact that the primary barrier to entry into a career as a pilot is financial, and not academic qualification based. The airlines don't care about hiring the best people: they want the cheapest possible to achieve the regulatory minimum standard of safety.This has allowed airlines to take advantage of an endless supply of cheap labour at the bottom, without having to invest anything in them. Compare that to real professions like medicine and law, where the barriers to entry are extremely high, and serious investment is made to recruit the best people.

There is no solution to the problem. The regulator doesn't care because it's proven to be a safe way of operating an airline. The union might care, but in the UK at least is seriously restricted in what it can do. It's fanciful to suggest pilots will go on strike to do something about entry level conditions, even if it was legal to do so (which it isn't). Oh and I was a union rep.

[SaulGoodman]

Come on and let’s think about it for a moment..

let’s say for one second that there are “captains willing to go to BA for 20k” then they:
- Have to pass selection
- background check
- Have their licenses checked, validated
- Have to be Issued a UKCAA licence
- Induction course / CRM / Groundschool
- OCC
- Security course / airport badge
- line training

imagine you have to plan this for 1000plus pilots while other airlines are doing the same. How are you going to get simulator availability? This will be a total nightmare.

This applies to type rated pilots. Flying Clog’s “A380 Captain” has to do a complete type rating!!

[hec7or]

Yes, blame the kids. etc.

BA used to fully fund their cadet's flight training, would you be able to let me know what the Union did to maintain that arrangement?

[Jet II]

Is it that they believe the price is too high, or that they know it’s the going rate but just don’t care because they’ve found an opportunity they otherwise would never have found to reduce terms anyway?

But what is this 'going rate'? - if the airline can find people to sit in the 2 seats at the front of the plane for £50k and £25k respectively then surely that is the going rate. £200k and £100k might have been the case 20 years ago but the industry has moved on. As a previous poster pointed out, it used to be the case where the airlines paid for training but at the same time they restricted access to that training so that only a few people were lucky enough to become a pilot and thus supply never exceeded demand - now the system is more 'democratised' and anyone with the money can fulfil their dream.

Is it likely that we are going to go back to the old system and wage levels? - I'd suggest probably not so I think people need to get used to the new normal and decide whether aviation is the career for them.

[esscee]

That is the problem, as for the last few years Flying ability is taking a back seat to anyone who has or can gain access to money to pay to fly. Look at what has happened in some countries, as long as you have a bit of paper that says it is a licence does not necessarily mean that person has been correctly trained and certified as a pilot or even engineer for that matter!

[TURIN]

Doesnt look like WW is in the mood to back down. And I do think he has a point that it is a bit of a cheek for Huw Merriman to complain when it is his Party who have introduced the 14 day quarantine (and the 2 meter distancing) that is effectively killing the industry.

Not really. WW started this abuse well before the 14 day quarantine idea was introduced. It isn't killing the industry either. The virus is doing that all by itself.

[Douglas Bahada]

Err no. The governments reaction to the virus is killing the industry.

[Busdriver01]

But what is this 'going rate'? - if the airline can find people to sit in the 2 seats at the front of the plane for £50k and £25k respectively then surely that is the going rate. £200k and £100k might have been the case 20 years ago but the industry has moved on. As a previous poster pointed out, it used to be the case where the airlines paid for training but at the same time they restricted access to that training so that only a few people were lucky enough to become a pilot and thus supply never exceeded demand - now the system is more 'democratised' and anyone with the money can fulfil their dream.

Is it likely that we are going to go back to the old system and wage levels? - I'd suggest probably not so I think people need to get used to the new normal and decide whether aviation is the career for them.

A fair point, which is why the outcome of the consultations / negotiations / call them what you will is so crucial. If the unions can succeed in securing the long term contracts now, that sends a message that the going rate is the current rate, as a minimum.

I hear Aer Lingus are on the cusp of of a deal with their pilots / IALPA that doesn’t see any changes to contracts, rather short term part time deals, and also no redundancies.

[RexBanner]

I hear Aer Lingus are on the cusp of of a deal with their pilots / IALPA that doesn’t see any changes to contracts, rather short term part time deals, and also no redundancies.

This has to strengthen our hand, surely? It creates precedent for IAG. However, as someone has pointed out on the Balpa forums, stand by to be fed all the usual excuses from the BACC why this can’t apply to us as we get served up a wholly unappetizing sh*t sandwich.

[kungfu panda]

I think that the BACC are scared to death of what they have to recommend to you. It could cost the existence of BALPA.

[Threethirty]

Ireland has a 14 day quarantine in place too, so that can’t be used as an excuse by BA to slash jobs.

[polax52]

They don't need an excuse. They can do what they like. At the end they have you guys by the short and curly's. You have nothing to bargain with at all right now. There are hundreds of guys with EASA licences, type ratings, experience on type, recency, Police clearance etc returning from the middle east needing "any" job, and now. Anybody suggesting that BALPA have chips to play is deceiving himself.

WW is in an awfully difficult position as well. I'm sure he is s........ himself. He wants to take this opportunity to roll over your salaries, he'll never get this chance again. However he knows that he may need to make real this threat of firing the lot of you, but then how in the heck does he get enough of you/ex-Emirates guys back into the flight deck to restart operations in August or September.

MOL would just fire you. No messing around. You'd already be gone.

This is Interesting. What is going to happen??

[bex88]

A lot of BS on here.

[Northern Monkey]

As crap as the CAA are, there has to be a question mark over the AOC if the company decide to "go nuclear". Particularly if training appointment holders are sacked too. It just doesn't seem like a likely scenario to me, but who knows. We're in uncharted territory.

The most likely outcome is the most obvious one. A crap deal, but BALPA recommends it and it goes through with a decent margin, despite all hell breaking loose on the other forum.

[polax52]

The most likely outcome is the most obvious one. A crap deal, but BALPA recommends it and it goes through with a decent margin, despite all hell breaking loose on the other forum.

Yes. That is what will happen.

[polax52]

As crap as the CAA are, there has to be a question mark over the AOC if the company decide to "go nuclear". Particularly if training appointment holders are sacked too. It just doesn't seem like a likely scenario to me, but who knows. We're in uncharted territory.


Trainers would obviously not be sacked. Those guys would get a pay rise.

[Jumpjim]

You seriously think we’d step up to the plate if the rest of our colleagues had just been given the boot? I can tell you for a fact it wouldn’t happen..

Dont feed the troll folks...

[polax52]

I've been through this, you'd save your own skin. Whatever you say on PPrune.
As Northern Monkey said, it's not the likely scenario. It is however going through the mind of WW.
In reality BALPA have to recommend whatever WW decides or risk "the nuclear option".

[TURIN]

GMB and UNITE aren't doing what WW asks so why should BALPA?

[blimey]

So can we passengers expect 30 000+ really p*ssed off customer facing staff, a poisonous atmosphere on the flight deck if people are brought in to replace refusenics, and about 12 000 really angry people with cars to bring T5 to a halt on a daily basis for the foreseeable future. I'm not sure WW has thought this through.

Compare and contrast with the Aer Lingus proposals.

[kendrick47247]

I've been through this, you'd save your own skin. Whatever you say on PPrune.
As Northern Monkey said, it's not the likely scenario. It is however going through the mind of WW.
In reality BALPA have to recommend whatever WW decides or risk "the nuclear option".

Dont feed this troll.

[Dannyboy39]

As a previous poster pointed out, it used to be the case where the airlines paid for training but at the same time they restricted access to that training so that only a few people were lucky enough to become a pilot and thus supply never exceeded demand - now the system is more 'democratised' and anyone with the money can fulfil their dream.
Perhaps I'm reading too much into this - but do people really want the old way? No one should have any barriers to employment, regardless of background, although with the new way, having to hit the Bank of Mum & Dad is hardly a perfect system either.

[krismiler]

Once the airline establishes a new normal for pay it will take a long time to work back up. If Captains are on £70 000 and F/Os £50 000 a year it will be difficult to justify any increase once things settle down. There won't be any shortage of quality applicants for pilot jobs and fares need to be kept down with consumers watching every penny. A request for a 30-40% pay rise in a couple of years time won't get much sympathy from anyone and wouldn't even be taken seriously if the airline is still losing money.

The terms and conditions we enjoyed were arrived at incrementally over a long period of time and whilst they may be reduced in a big chunk, they won't be given back in the same manner.

[777JRM]

Apparently Aer Lingus have a temporary deal on the table; anyone know the details?

Does Irish law (and Spanish law in the case of Iberia) protect them from the shafting that BA employees are facing?

[Whitemonk Returns]

Once the airline establishes a new normal for pay it will take a long time to work back up. If Captains are on £70 000 and F/Os £50 000 a year it will be difficult to justify any increase once things settle down. There won't be any shortage of quality applicants for pilot jobs and fares need to be kept down with consumers watching every penny. A request for a 30-40% pay rise in a couple of years time won't get much sympathy from anyone and wouldn't even be taken seriously if the airline is still losing money.

The terms and conditions we enjoyed were arrived at incrementally over a long period of time and whilst they may be reduced in a big chunk, they won't be given back in the same manner.

Absolutely ridiculous figures being pulled out of people's arses on this thread. Do you seriously think any UK airline would get away with reducing long term pilot salaries by more than 50%? Especially an airline as heavily unionised as BA? I'm no fan of Balpa, they are weak at the core and don't have the cojones of their French/Spanish or American contemporaries, but if you really think BA would get away with Captain salaries of 70k you are an idiot, and good luck finding anyone who would fly 900 hours a year for 30 years for that money and live within a commutable distance to LHR.

[kungfu panda]

Absolutely ridiculous figures being pulled out of people's arses on this thread. Do you seriously think any UK airline would get away with reducing long term pilot salaries by more than 50%? Especially an airline as heavily unionised as BA? I'm no fan of Balpa, they are weak at the core and don't have the cojones of their French/Spanish or American contemporaries, but if you really think BA would get away with Captain salaries of 70k you are an idiot, and good luck finding anyone who would fly 900 hours a year for 30 years for that money and live within a commutable distance to LHR.
On the other hand, it's odds on that Pilot Salaries will be slashed in the coming days. So if people quoting 70k are idiots then what number would you put on it?

[Whitemonk Returns]

On the other hand, it's odds on that Pilot Salaries will be slashed in the coming days. So if people quoting 70k are idiots then what number would you put on it?

If 70k is your figure then that would have to be for a 50% contract, 450 hrs a year or month on/ month off. We are already on the other side of this pandemic, don't be fooled by the doom and gloomers.

[stormin norman]

What planet are you on .The Economy and passenger numbers wont start up like the press of a switch.

[kungfu panda]

If 70k is your figure then that would have to be for a 50% contract, 450 hrs a year or month on/ month off. We are already on the other side of this pandemic, don't be fooled by the doom and gloomers.
Ok. So BALPA and WW are having tea and biscuits and talking about the weather.

[guy_incognito]

It's understandable that people don't want to face up to the reality, but ultimately it comes down to supply and demand. Airlines could literally offer any salary they choose to at the moment and there will be a huge excess of applications. £70k for a captain would seem about right as it's about the same as tube drivers make when overtime is taken into account.

As I previously posted, the goal is the minimum acceptable level of safety for the lowest possible cost. Highly restrictive SOPs and very reliable aircraft that are relatively straight forward to operate the vast majority of the time mean that there is no need to pay top whack for highly experienced people, when the job can be done to the minimum regulatory standard by far less experienced and cheaper pilots. It's simply a bonus for the airlines that for the foreseeable future they'll be able to get the highly experienced people for the same cost as the newbies.

[Time Traveller]

. £70k for a captain I'm guessing at £84,456 for all.

The soft underbelly for an attack on salaries was always there, but no-one cared because "first they came for....."

[kungfu panda]

I'm guessing at £84,456 for all.

The soft underbelly for an attack on salaries was always there, but no-one cared because "first they came for....."
If you're going to pluck a figure from the air, that, to me, looks like a good one. The question is, would BALPA collapse, if they offered that to the membership?

[Time Traveller]

The question is, would BALPA collapse, if they offered that to the membership? Can but hope! (Cue incoming)!

[Whitemonk Returns]

What planet are you on .The Economy and passenger numbers wont start up like the press of a switch.

I'm on the same planet as the one where the financial markets are pricing a swift recovery. IAG have been making profits in the billions for years on your current contracts, FD and CC both, and at the first sign of a tough year you lot want to bend over and take less than half? By that token if you think it acceptable for a BA captain to get paid 70k in 2021, then I would argue they should get paid 250k in 2023 when you can be sure IAGs profits will be in the billions again. Look how many ASR's and close calls happen on a daily basis in a career that is still sought after, start paying Captain's 70k and watch the incident rate skyrocket as people stop giving a ****. Also clearly none of you are involved in training, it's hard enough for highly motivated professionals when you put them under a bit of pressure, let's see what happens when you are scraping the barrel.

[777JRM]

If you're going to pluck a figure from the air, that, to me, looks like a good one. The question is, would BALPA collapse, if they offered that to the membership?


No, but the airline would.

The shareholders would then have an EGM and sack the board.

[judge11]

' it's about the same as tube drivers make when overtime is taken into account.'

Are you seriously comparing flightcrew to a tube driver? If you are a pilot then you're a disgrace to the profession; if you aren't you are talking through your nether region.

[krismiler]

At the moment I'm sitting at home not having flown for 3 months and getting about 45% of what I was getting before. If company forecasts are correct, around the end of the year I would be back to about 80% of previous earnings. I consider myself lucky to still be employed with the prospect of returning to flying, many former colleagues who left for better jobs in the Middle East or China have been laid off with no return insight.

Whilst BA is in a better position than hub airlines in the ME, profitable operations are still a long way off. An interim deal will probably be needed whilst the company is haemorrhaging money, similar to British Leyland in the late 1970s. Whilst the immediate pandemic is coming to an end, the economic effects are just beginning. If my income returns to its previous level by the end of next year I'll be surprised and delighted.

Striking pilots would have very little public sympathy as their demands would be seen as totally unrealistic and unreasonable. Picketing the terminals at Heathrow holding signs demanding £130 000 a year whilst the company is losing millions a day won't get much support. Militant unions such as the miners, printers and Australian domestic pilots in 1989, have been broken before, and the Aussies were in a much stronger position when they started then BA pilots are in at the moment.

Australia is a vast country heavily dependent on air travel for domestic transportation where as BA domestic is virtually negligible. For any international BA flights, pax can simply switch to any number of competing airlines. Ansett and Australian airlines had to get pilots to move to Australia and convert their licences, where as the UK has hundreds of unemployed pilots already type rated and ready to go.

Get the best deal you can in the present circumstances and once normality returns it's time to push for a return to previous conditions or better.

[FlipFlapFlop]

' it's about the same as tube drivers make when overtime is taken into account.'

Are you seriously comparing flightcrew to a tube driver? If you are a pilot then you're a disgrace to the profession; if you aren't you are talking through your nether region.

Just ignore him. He is here to wind us up. He is not alone.

[kungfu panda]

You're totally missing the point. Very obviously Piloting an aircraft and managing a crew requires a much higher level of skill than driving a tube train.

Unfortunately in the UK that will not justify higher salaries for two reasons:

1. Unconstrained training of new Pilots meaning a flood of young Pilots coming to the market (It is a market). From next year, those young British Pilots will be limited to a UK job. British Pilots do form the majority of Pilots on a per country basis in the EU.
Even amongst US part 121 Airlines a 4 year degree is generally required to be a Pilot.

2. No strong Pilot Unions.

If I started an Airline right now in the UK and offered £30,000 per year for an experienced Captain, I would be overwhelmed with applications. Mostly from middle East and Asia returnees. These people are high quality though. Their safety records are not lower than BA.

[krismiler]

For those who don't watch the news, Beijing is back in lockdown due to an outbreak of COVID - 19 with hundreds of flights grounded.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8430589/Beijing-battles-coronavirus-second-wave-two-thirds-flights-cancelled.html

Any youngsters here in their 30s and 40s would do well to research the Australian Pilots dispute of 1989, those of us in our 50s and 60s remember it. Avoid having a battle with Willie Walsh at the moment, everything is in his favour and you will lose. If everyone gets sacked the union will take years to recover and re-establish itself with the new pilot body. The current times are unprecedented and sacrifices need to be made, bend a bit to avoid being broken. Stick together and when the good times return you will have a strong and established union already in place to do some hard bargaining and make up lost ground.

This is simply taking a realistic view of the situation, nothing is in the pilots favour at all at the moment.

BTW The leader of the Australian Pilots in 1989 spent the next 5 years unemployed and eventually got a co pilot job in Indonesia.

[777JRM]

You're totally missing the point. Very obviously Piloting an aircraft and managing a crew requires a much higher level of skill than driving a tube train.

Unfortunately in the UK that will not justify higher salaries for two reasons:

1. Unconstrained training of new Pilots meaning a flood of young Pilots coming to the market (It is a market). From next year, those young British Pilots will be limited to a UK job. British Pilots do form the majority of Pilots on a per country basis in the EU.
Even amongst US part 121 Airlines a 4 year degree is generally required to be a Pilot.

2. No strong Pilot Unions.

If I started an Airline right now in the UK and offered £30,000 per year for an experienced Captain, I would be overwhelmed with applications. Mostly from middle East and Asia returnees. These people are high quality though. Their safety records are not lower than BA.


Possible BS.


1. Where is this ‘flood’ of young pilots? Who would enter the profession now? The British ones are not limited to the UK; there are things called ‘work-visas’ for anyone who sees beyond the EU.

2. So what. Wasn’t it ever so?


How would your start-up airline cope with training demand when this is happening (already approaching 50% recovery?):

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x810/cd32f59a_dfe1_4271_a961_265ab79a2ba3_108bea2462f8f8fc5a87e9a f611e7da78e89235c.jpeg