View Full Version : Air France grounds A380
Me Myself
13th Mar 2020, 08:29
This was to be expected.
as from April....4 aircrafts....out of the remaining 8....will be grounded.
An additional 2 will join them between June and September ....making a total of 6.
i would be very surprised to see this bird flying again after this, knowing it was on its way out within 2 years anyway.
ATC Watcher
13th Mar 2020, 08:33
Lufthansa has also grounded its 10 A380s...All depends how the aviation/ airline world will look like in 6 months .
procede
13th Mar 2020, 08:58
Prepare for runways being used as parking lots.
Lord Farringdon
13th Mar 2020, 10:01
Prepare for runways being used as parking lots.
Greta gets her wish !
lomapaseo
13th Mar 2020, 11:09
Greta gets her wish !
Yea we give up half a hundred spewing engines to be replaced by 200 engines
Jhieminga
13th Mar 2020, 11:10
Schiphol airport just opened a new parking apron two weeks ago. Perhaps that will serve as a storage area for unused widebodies soon.
Good times ahead for the scrap and spares businesses...
How much of the 380 parts and components can be effectively used on other types without significant modification? Must be plenty, no?
Astir 511
13th Mar 2020, 11:37
Good times ahead for the scrap and spares businesses...
How much of the 380 parts and components can be effectively used on other types without significant modification? Must be plenty, no?
Not much component interchangeability between A380 and other fleets. Mostly Avionics and Electrical unit.
As regards "Good Times" for the spares business, speaking as someone that works in this area, it's not necessarily so. More aircraft parked equals more aircraft for teardown, which means lower Buy price for aircraft. Countering that overall demand for spares reduction equals reduction in Inventory realisable value. It can be a vicious circle. Main losers will be the OEM Component manufacturers, More spares and surplus availability means less "New Sales", Less flying equals less component repairs revenue.
fox niner
13th Mar 2020, 15:04
Klm grounds all 747’s permanently end of march.
Fortissimo
13th Mar 2020, 16:21
Air France grounds A380
Lufthansa has also grounded its 10 A380s
Klm grounds all 747’s permanently end of march
Please can we get the terminology right? The B737 MAX is grounded (ie declared non-airworthy) by a regulator whereas these aircraft are simply being temporarily withdrawn from service by the operator for business reasons - if Lufthansa wanted to operate one of its A380s tomorrow, there is no technical reason to prevent it.
DaveReidUK
13th Mar 2020, 16:40
whereas these aircraft are simply being temporarily withdrawn from service by the operator for business reasons
Presumably as they aren't flying they are therefore going to remain on the, er, ground ? :O
Longtimer
13th Mar 2020, 18:15
grounded adjective (UNABLE TO MOVE)
used to describe (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/describe) an aircraft (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/aircraft) that is prevented (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/prevent) from flying (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/flying) for some reason (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/reason), or a ship (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/ship) that cannot move (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/move) because it has hit (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/hit) solid (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/solid) ground (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/ground) Thesaurus: synonyms and related words
cashash
13th Mar 2020, 18:43
grounded adjective (UNABLE TO MOVE)
used to describe (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/describe) an aircraft (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/aircraft) that is prevented (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/prevent) from flying (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/flying) for some reason (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/reason),
no demand from the public due to coronavirus?
student88
13th Mar 2020, 18:46
Please can we get the terminology right? The B737 MAX is grounded (ie declared non-airworthy) by a regulator whereas these aircraft are simply being temporarily withdrawn from service by the operator for business reasons - if Lufthansa wanted to operate one of its A380s tomorrow, there is no technical reason to prevent it.
Nothing like focusing on what's important.
kcockayne
13th Mar 2020, 19:21
Yes, temporarily withdrawn from service, but how many of them will ever be restored to service ? Not many - if any - I suspect.
procede
13th Mar 2020, 20:36
Please can we get the terminology right? The B737 MAX is grounded (ie declared non-airworthy) by a regulator whereas these aircraft are simply being temporarily withdrawn from service by the operator for business reasons - if Lufthansa wanted to operate one of its A380s tomorrow, there is no technical reason to prevent it.
KLM's 747 are permanently withdrawn. Only freighters will be left, which are actually currently in short supply as freight cannot go into the bellies of passenger aircraft if they are not flying.
Pugilistic Animus
13th Mar 2020, 20:52
Sad really, getting rid of all 4 holers or relegating them to freight only, despite having a surplus of new jets. I do however believe Boeing can make the 747-8 profitable due to an easy conversion to all cargo Ops. In that respect Airbus has little hope.
procede
13th Mar 2020, 21:16
KLM has just announced they are reducing flights by 30-40%, firing 1500-2000 staff and reducing working hours for the rest of the ~35000 employees.
Longtimer
14th Mar 2020, 00:02
KLM has just announced they are reducing flights by 30-40%, firing 1500-2000 staff and reducing working hours for the rest of the ~35000 employees.
Link to this info please.
marchino61
14th Mar 2020, 07:06
https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/air-france-klm-group/klm-royal-dutch-airlines/lays-off-between-1500-and-2000-staff-drastically-reduces-capacity-phases-out-boeing-747-400/
Korean Air’s 10 A380s are also grounded but their 747 cargo aircraft are in high demand.
Emirates are asking for delays in deliveries of A380s.
ElectroVlasic
14th Mar 2020, 13:25
FG: Coronavirus brings Virgin Atlantic A340 era to sudden halt (https://www.flightglobal.com/fleets/coronavirus-brings-virgin-atlantic-a340-era-to-sudden-halt/137225.article)
These will be grounded, and presumably ground up too.
Pugilistic Animus
14th Mar 2020, 13:49
FG: Coronavirus brings Virgin Atlantic A340 era to sudden halt (https://www.flightglobal.com/fleets/coronavirus-brings-virgin-atlantic-a340-era-to-sudden-halt/137225.article)
These will be grounded, and presumably ground up too.
Shame, to me the A340 is the most aesthetic of all the Airbuses. Beautiful lines and curves
procede
14th Mar 2020, 16:19
Link to this info please.
Firing was maybe the wrong word, not renewing temporary contracts the right one. Only dutch sources:
https://nos.nl/artikel/2327047-klm-wil-werktijdverkorting-schrapt-minimaal-1500-banen.html
luchtzak
14th Mar 2020, 22:32
Firing was maybe the wrong word, not renewing temporary contracts the right one. Only dutch sources:
https://nos.nl/artikel/2327047-klm-wil-werktijdverkorting-schrapt-minimaal-1500-banen.html
I don't want to correct you or your article, but the KLM press release clearly mentions between 1500 and 2000 Full Time Equivalents.
procede
15th Mar 2020, 07:21
I don't want to correct you or your article, but the KLM press release clearly mentions between 1500 and 2000 Full Time Equivalents.
So that would then be even more people without a job...
ReturningVector
15th Mar 2020, 08:15
Firing was maybe the wrong word, not renewing temporary contracts the right one. Only dutch sources:
https://nos.nl/artikel/2327047-klm-wil-werktijdverkorting-schrapt-minimaal-1500-banen.html
Correct. 1500-2000 FTE, not only temp employments but also flex hires will be let go.
Also there will be a reduction in contract hours of all personnel by 30%. This cut will only partially be covered by the government.
Fuel Crossfeed
15th Mar 2020, 08:32
Korean Air’s 10 A380s are also grounded but their 747 cargo aircraft are in high demand.
Emirates are asking for delays in deliveries of A380s.
EK were asking for delays to 380 deliveries long before corona kicked off!
Deltasierra010
15th Mar 2020, 08:57
For every action there is a reaction, every one is shutting down and isolating now but that will change, those cancelling travel and holidays will rebook later. I am predicting this crisis will either burn itself out within 6 weeks or we will all be dead. By midsummer it’s likely everyone will be flat out working overtime so make the most of the time off you have now, it will improve soon enough.
Yes. I have always been an optimist!.
ATC Watcher
15th Mar 2020, 14:20
, those cancelling travel and holidays will rebook later. I am predicting this crisis will either burn itself out within 6 weeks or we will all be dead. By midsummer it’s likely everyone will be flat out working overtime so make the most of the time off you have now, it will improve soon enough.
Yes. I have always been an optimist!.
6 weeks ? I wish you were right but every specialist predict it will be months before we see the end of this...
One think you are right though it will rebound and pick up again , and then many of us will be caught with our pants down trying to replace all those people gone , just like the previous crises..
aerodestination
15th Mar 2020, 14:49
All KLM lay offs, as previously mentioned, are temporarily contracts and flex workers. NO layoffs of pilots, cabin crews. They do have requested the government for compensation for 30% of the total income of all 30.000 employees. In that case the top 30% of your income will be paid for 70% by the government.
So NO permanent contract job losses. And for all 30.000 employees about a 10-12% income loss. Which is a pre-tax amount. So most pilots will see a 5-6% NET pay decrease.
the 1500-2000 jobs that are lost are primarily for ground staff functions hired by external companies.
procede
15th Mar 2020, 17:00
All KLM lay offs, as previously mentioned, are temporarily contracts and flex workers. NO layoffs of pilots, cabin crews. They do have requested the government for compensation for 30% of the total income of all 30.000 employees. In that case the top 30% of your income will be paid for 70% by the government.
So NO permanent contract job losses. And for all 30.000 employees about a 10-12% income loss. Which is a pre-tax amount. So most pilots will see a 5-6% NET pay decrease.
the 1500-2000 jobs that are lost are primarily for ground staff functions hired by external companies.
They are still people who are now without a job. And with current developments, all bets are off. I would not be surprised if most carriers end up going bancrupt and/or being nationalised.
aerodestination
15th Mar 2020, 17:15
They are still people who are now without a job. And with current developments, all bets are off. I would not be surprised if most carriers end up going bancrupt and/or being nationalised.
absolutely not denying that off course! But currently there are no lay offs for people with permanent contracts. Just wanted to make that clear.
SMT Member
15th Mar 2020, 17:40
SAS are temporarily sending home 10.000 employees, or 9 out of 10 employees. Out of 4.200 employees in Denmark, only 200 will remain. 3.000 staff will be sent home from Norway and Sweden.
Out of Copenhagen SAS will only operate a single domestic route to AAL.
https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/indland/sas-neddrosler-kraftigt-4000-danske-ansatte-sendes-hjem (Danish)
https://www.nrk.no/norge/her-er-regjeringens-tiltak-for-naeringslivet-1.14945564 (Norwegian)
https://www.svt.se/nyheter/snabbkollen/sas-permitterar-10-000-anstallda (Swedish)
Staff in Denmark will not be laid off, as the Government will be paying up to 75% of the salaries of all employees in private industry, who would otherwise face mass lay-offs. Don't know the situation in Sweden or Norway, but I guess they'll be headed for similar solutions.
sarah737
15th Mar 2020, 23:59
And for all 30.000 employees about a 10-12% income loss. Which is a pre-tax amount. So most pilots will see a 5-6% NET pay decrease..
10-12% gross is 9-11% net!
Longtimer
16th Mar 2020, 01:13
10-12% gross is 9-11% net!ots ofOriginally Posted by aerodestination View Post (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/630487-air-france-grounds-a380-2.html#post10714936)
And for all 30.000 employees about a 10-12% income loss. Which is a pre-tax amount. So most pilots will see a 5-6% NET pay decrease..
Others in our industry will see a 100% decrease in their earnings. go figure......
And for all 30.000 employees about a 10-12% income loss. Which is a pre-tax amount. So most pilots will see a 5-6% NET pay decrease..
You need to brush up your maths a bit!
50% tax is applicable to the amount not to the percentage of pay loss, Sarah is correct.
(150.000 pre-tax is +/-76400 net, 10% less, 135000 is 68900 net, which is 7500 or 9,8% less)
marchino61
16th Mar 2020, 07:39
You need to brush up your maths a bit!
50% tax is applicable to the amount not to the percentage of pay loss, Sarah is correct.
(150.000 pre-tax is +/-76400 net, 10% less, 135000 is 68900 net, which is 7500 or 9,8% less)
You need to brush up your understanding of tax a bit! Income tax is graduated - you don't pay the top rate on your whole income. Tax rates in Norway start at 22%.
I have no idea how much pilots earn at Norwegian, so I can't make the calculation. But the net cut will definitely be less than 10% because of the graduated tax rate.
For example. If someone earns 200k, and 100k is taxed at 25% and 100K at 50%, post-tax income is 125k. Reduce this by 10% to 180K and post-tax income is 115K, a reduction of 8%.
You need to brush up your understanding of tax a bit! Income tax is graduated - you don't pay the top rate on your whole income. Tax rates in Norway start at 22%.
I have no idea how much pilots earn at Norwegian, so I can't make the calculation. But the net cut will definitely be less than 10% because of the graduated tax rate.
For example. If someone earns 200k, and 100k is taxed at 25% and 100K at 50%, post-tax income is 125k. Reduce this by 10% to 180K and post-tax income is 115K, a reduction of 8%.
Exactly 8% and not 5% as OP wrote, they were claiming a 10% pay cut becomes 5% due to 50% tax.
Your example for Dutch tax, talking about KLM after all, would be:
200k equals 101,7 net and 180k becomes 91,6 a loss of 10,1k or 9,9%...
You can probably convert it but it will be:
1) Expensive
2) Heavy