"Two in the cockpit"-rule?

[aerobus123]

Are there any airlines still practicing the rule mandating a FA to enter the cockpit whenever a pilot leaves the flight deck for any reason? I heard it became optional around 2017 and that Lufthansa then scrapped it.

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

The airline that I work for have always, and still do, require 2 flight deck occupants at all times. That is now in excess of 16 years. It’s not a problem at all.

[aerobus123]

The airline that I work for have always, and still do, require 2 flight deck occupants at all times. That is now in excess of 16 years. It’s not a problem at all.

What airline, may I ask?

[iggy]

Same here, last two airlines I have worked for are still enforcing that policy.

[pineteam]

I don’t normally do it but we are supposed to in my outfit. That rule is so ridiculous, it’s outrageous. First of all it does not improve safety at all to have a FA in the cockpit. That’s why many outfits stopped it. I’m not going to explain how easy it is to crash the plane regardless how many people are in cockpit as my message will be deleted but yep, totally useless. On the contrary it’s creating a distraction to the remaining pilot who instead of flying the plane is most probably talking to the FA. We already had one case of altitude burst in my airline cause the captain was flirting with the cabin crew while the fo was in the toilet and read back the clearance of a company traffic with similar call sign.

[CaptainMongo]

I don’t normally do it but we are supposed to in my outfit. That rule is so ridiculous, it’s outrageous. First of all it does not improve safety at all to have a FA in the cockpit. That’s why many outfits stopped it. I’m not going to explain how easy it is to crash the plane regardless how many people are in cockpit as my message will be deleted but yep, totally useless. On the contrary it’s creating a distraction to the remaining pilot who instead of flying the plane is most probably talking to the FA. We already had one case of altitude burst in my airline cause the captain was flirting with the cabin crew while the fo was in the toilet and read back the clearance of a company traffic with similar call sign.


The problem at your outfit isn’t having a FA in the cockpit, it is pilots unable and unwilling to follow SOP and do the job they are paid to do.

The job of the FA in the cockpit isn’t to save the airplane, it is to open the cockpit door to allow the other pilot to save the airplane.

[FlyingStone]

We already had one case of altitude burst in my airline cause the captain was flirting with the cabin crew while the fo was in the toilet and read back the clearanceof a company traffic with similar call sign.
Sound like your airline needs more mature captains and/or better trained cabin crew, who should know not to distract pilots during the FD visit.

I work for an airline that has the rule and it works without any issues.

[pineteam]

I cleared my message before a cry baby or a butt hurt reports me for spreading bad ideas. Happened to me before. But since you guys had time to read my scenario,I would be pleased to see how you could have saved the day. Remember you were in the toilet for potentially a number 2. xD

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

What airline, may I ask?

A friendly Northern airline

[reivilo]

I completely agree with pineteam. It's a totally useless and windowdressing SOP to have at an extra occupant in the flightdeck when one of the pilots is out. It does not add any extra safety and in my opinion only causes more distraction (safety risk) and on top of that the flight-deck door stays open for a longer time (security risk).
I'm glad my company removed this SOP in 2017.

[turbidus]

Isnt it to prevent one pilot from locking the other out and flying the ac into a mountain on purpose?

Then there is this reasoning:
The German airline association BDL announced the change, which will come into effect by 1 June, on its website. It said its airlines will be re-introducing their original cockpit safety procedures.
BDL said that its airlines had “independently” reviewed the rules and decided that the two-person rule had no safety benefits – and could actually be more dangerous.
The group said the changes caused “more frequent and predictable” opening of the cockpit door and expanded the number of people with access to the cockpit.
Lufthansa, the country’s biggest airline, is one of the groups removing the requirement. Its airlines include Austrian Airlines, Swiss Airlines, and Eurowings – which was merged with Germanwings in 2015, a process which had begun before the company’s high-profile crash.


https://onemileatatime.com/two-person-cockpit-rule-abolished/

[pineteam]

Thank you Reivilo. At least someone who has common sense. Actually Swissair has done an audit and they realised it was less safe to do this procedure.
@t Turbidus: Yes that’s the idea. But in reality it won’t work because it’s very easy for a pilot to put the aircraft in an unrecoverable upset situation within few seconds. That’s the reality. It’s foolish to believe otherwise.

[FullWings]

We (large arline) don’t and never have. I assume the original safety case came out against it as Swissair/Lufthansa above, so sensible heads prevailed. The whole point of a locked door is to stop breaches of the flight deck, even by someone who knows how the locking system works - this was proven effective in the Eurowings crash. It’s also probably easier to have a “sleeper” as CC than a pilot, so the threat surface would be expanded by the two-rule.

[aerobus123]

I get the argument, however, there are two reasons why the rule is beneficial IMO:

1) The cockpit door will still be open whenever a pilot wants a break (and returns). How does another person entering when one exits be a greater safety risk?

2) There is the psychological factor: Solitude is a major factor in mental issues including suicide. Most people will feel more at ease around other people and interacting with them, or at least feel compelled to not act improperly.

When you’re alone, it’s not only you perceiving and being affected by your actions. For reasons ranging from our inherent sense of shame, not wanting to be seen or detected, to not wanting to hurt others, we don’t do things we would do on our own with another person around. Think of yourself: How many things aren’t there that you’d do when alone, but definitely not around other people, let alone a colleague? And the shame when you mistakenly realise you’re not alone - like your mother entering the room while you’re masturbating.

And a locked aircraft door is definitely a barrier between a lone pilot wearing noice-canceling headphones and the other people onboard, enough to create a sense of solitude. A suicidal pilot would without a doubt be far more likely to crash aircraft when alone than with another person on the flight deck he could talk with.

Let’s just look at statistics: ALL pilot suicide crashes (Germanwings. Silkair, Egyptair, LAM Mozambique and probably MH370) involve the same scenario: One pilot alone on the flight deck. If having two people on the flight deck isn’t a deterrance, why did these pilots wait until the other pilot left the flight deck before committing the act?

The only instance of pilot suicide with another person on the flight deck, was a Royal Air Maroc flight in 1994, where the captain was reported to have had romantic problems, also involving the female first officer rejecting his advances (e.g. a motive to hurt the person sitting in the flight deck!)

Apart from their presence alone being a deterrent, the other person could convince the suicidal pilot to retreat if he/she inexplicably would try to crash the plane («Please, don’t do it! Talk to me instead, I want to help you! Think about the passengers and their families!»), or let the captain inside.

[PapaEchoIndia]

I fly for a major airline in between :8For around 10 months, 2 in the cockpit is not mandatory. Some captains still ask the cabin chief to be present in the cockpit when he is gone.

In my idea, it doesn’t improve the safety but may create distraction.

Just wondering, when you are two, does the cabin crew stand or sit in an “avaible” seat?

[Sidestick_n_Rudder]

In one airline I used to work for, the 2 people in the cockpit rule was introduced as a knee jerk reaction, immediately after the Germanwings crash.

Result - we had two cases of lost comms in the first week alone.

Mind you, some of the CC were smoking hot, small wonder they proved to be a distraction:8

[Flying Wild]

In my 9 years of flying at several airlines which had the two person rule, I’ve never had an issue. If we’re chatting with the CC member, then the cockpit speaker is turned on to aid in monitoring RT. The CC know not to be insulted if I suddenly stick up my hand to stop them speaking if ATC call us.
We also ensure that CC don’t come in until we are established in the cruise for precisely the reason another poster mentioned regarding level busts and distraction.
I’ve never found it to be an inconvenience or hassle. Ultimately I fly the way the company wants me to and if they want two people in the flight deck then I’m not about to argue the toss.

[FlyingStone]

Just wondering, when you are two, does the cabin crew stand or sit in an “avaible” seat?

With us, they just sit in the 2nd jumpseat (737).

[pineteam]

For us they are supposed to stand up close to the door. But as far as I know most fellow pilots offer them to sit down on the jumpseat.

[pineteam]

Not a problem. In our outfit, you use the emergency code and it triggers a continuous charm and then the door will unlock automatically after 30 seconds.
Quite useful also when pilots or cabin crews inadvertently close the cockpit door on ground when noone is inside. xD

[CaptainMongo]

I cleared my message before a cry baby or a butt hurt reports me for spreading bad ideas. Happened to me before. But since you guys had time to read my scenario,I would be pleased to see how you could have saved the day. Remember you were in the toilet for potentially a number 2. xD



You are paid to follow the SOP at your outfit. If you don’t like a SOP, you follow it until you get it changed.

If that’s not to your liking, grow a pair, call your chief pilot and tell him or her not only do you disagree with the SOP you will not follow it. Then let us know how that works out for you.

[pineteam]

Dude calm down. For your information, I did talk about it to the management. But things don’t change over night in here. I’m ultimately responsible for the safety so I will do what I have to do and by FOM that’s my right. You wanna be a monkey and follow blindly some counter productive rule who has be proven to be unsafe then be my guest but don’t tell me how to do my job. So far I have a clean record so I guess I’m not doing so bad. And it’s always in agreement with the rest of the crew otherwise I would have been reported. In fact the cabin crews are always grateful as it’s a pain in the @ss for them as it’s interrupting the service in BC. You can’t not imagine how many times they are grateful to me for doing this. It’s a win win situation. 90% of the pilots don’t give a sh@t about that rule cause they know how ridiculous it is. Open your eyes man. We should all be fighting against that rule.

[Mister Geezer]

It’s in use at my company after being implemented after the Germanwings crash and I personally have mixed feelings about the policy.

Mental health challenges for pilots are as much taboo now than they were five years ago, in the run up to the horrific Germanwings accident. Whilst some regulators and airlines have developed their support mechanisms for pilots with mental health challenges, many have not.

Having the door opened and closed on more occasions is not ideal but the risk this poses will vary greatly, depending on what type you fly. Pax can’t easily see the flight deck door on the type I fly, so this is far less of a risk than it may be for some others.

Our cabin crew are trained to not initiate conversation on the flight deck unless done so first by the remaining pilot. It seems to work well for managing any distractions.

[Small cog]

‘pineteam’ Your responsibility is to follow company procedures and not to ignore the ones you don’t like. You are not a professional pilot. If you are so sure of yourself, please let the forum know which company you work for.

[pineteam]

Yeah sure to the guy sharing zero information. You want my real name too? Don’t you have better things to do? Maybe you think the airline I work for is unsafe? Mmmm well zero accident/ Serious incident in more than 25 years... You guys are unbelievable: You have no valuable argument and only know how to be offensive. I’m not perfect but I’m probably more professional than you and definitely a kinder person. Just reading some of your posts say a lot about how trash you can be towards over members.
May I remind you that you are fairly new here. Please show some respects to the community and stop polluting the topic. You wanna talk, you PM me. Thank you.

[Denti]

The german airlines introduced the 2 person rule after Germanwings, ultimately due to public pressure. A year later they quietly went back to the old procedure. Back then i was working in one of them and talked to the flight safety manager, he told me that the safety case was always against the 2 person rule, but public pressure was so high that they had to implement against their own safety case, which the authority was not happy about.

I believe some Big Airline never introduced it, and my current outfit finally dropped it in the middle of last year. So yes, there is quite a few airlines that do not require the 2 person rule.

As we have recently seen in the Atlas case, even a second pilot in the flightdeck does not prevent one pilot from bringing down the plane if he really wants to, certainly not a flight attendant on a jump seat.

[Small cog]

‘pineteam’ Perhaps you hadn’t heard that Germanwings hadn’t had an accident until 24 March 2015? TEM is rather lost on you eh? Can do better than PM you, would you prefer me to ask your FOM to have a chat?

BTW, I first became a member of this forum in 1997, so not ‘new’ here.

[Intrance]

I'd imagine there are more pressing safety issues to get this worked up about instead of whether a cockpit door is open for 5 seconds or 10 and whether there is an FA in the cockpit or not... Get a grip :).

[pineteam]

You are right Deja Vu and Intrance. Why I am wasting my time arguing about it. Maybe that’s my new hobby. xD
Small Cog, in my opinion, and it’s be proven that adding a FA in the cockpit was not a good TEM resolution. Believe what you want. I’m tired of discussing about it. Good day.

[Banana Joe]

Useless rule, that was a knee jerk reaction, just like the 1500 hour time in the US following the Colgan crash. If some have it so be it, but I am not surprised it is not a hard SOP.
I fly for a cargo outfit, so we don't really have a choice.

[Banana Joe]

‘pineteam’ Perhaps you hadn’t heard that Germanwings hadn’t had an accident until 24 March 2015? TEM is rather lost on you eh? Can do better than PM you, would you prefer me to ask your FOM to have a chat?

BTW, I first became a member of this forum in 1997, so not ‘new’ here.
A FedEx DC-10 (or MD-11) crew in the US was also attacked by one of their colleagues jumpseating.
Flight attendants know what tools are available in the flight deck, and they can hurt to death.

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[Intrance]

I am of the opinion that if anyone wants to bring down an airliner bad enough, they will succeed. It doesn't matter then if there is an FA in the cockpit or not. However, I also don't really see much of an additional risk of having the cockpit door open a few seconds more for an FA to step inside. If we are what we claim to be, professional pilots, it should not make a difference if there is an FA in the cockpit. However, if we are instead some juvenile flyboys who get distracted by a hot piece of *ss (male or female :8) then I suppose that is a bigger risk than the actual rule itself.

All in all, just follow whatever SOP your company has decided on and focus on bigger issues than this crap :).

[BluSdUp]

Just my two euroCent worth:
In a flightdeck without a cabin camera ( if that is what it is called), I feel it is unsafe without a CA in the flightdeck during breaks.
How am I suppose to check visually the reentering FO?
Not getting out of my seat!
Just saying.

[PA38-Pilot]

Just my two euroCent worth:
In a flightdeck without a cabin camera ( if that is what it is called), I feel it is unsafe without a CA in the flightdeck during breaks.
How am I suppose to check visually the reentering FO?
Not getting out of my seat!
Just saying.

Call him? And establish a code/have him identify himself before opening the door.That's how we've been doing it for years.

[Tanker]

Since 9/11 it has always been the rule in the US for two reasons. The first, and most important, is so that the pilot flying doesn't have to get out of his seat in order to open the door. The second is if the pilot flying becomes incapacitated there is someone there immediately aware of it and can also open the door. It has been said that during incapacitation the door can be opened electronically via a code. However the electric lock can be MEL'ed in which case the door can be manually lock which goes back to reason number one.

[Denti]

Just my two euroCent worth:
In a flightdeck without a cabin camera ( if that is what it is called), I feel it is unsafe without a CA in the flightdeck during breaks.
How am I suppose to check visually the reentering FO?
Not getting out of my seat!
Just saying.

I believe EASA rules require in that case the two person rule, dito in case of inop cameras of course, or an inop door lock which requires using the deadbolt on the door (if you have a door equipped with that). But those are edge cases, almost all airlines (with the huge exception of ryanair of course) in europe use camera systems, many of them display the camera pictures in the primary field of view on one of the main screens (lower DU for the 737, SD for the A320 for example). Only those that pay only lip service to safety do use the rather clumsy version with a monitor behind the pilots which indeed lets one question if it is indeed safe to have only one pilot in the flight deck if IDing the one entering by turning around preventing any flight instrument or even window check while checking the monitor.

[Jetman346]

Yeah sure to the guy sharing zero information. You want my real name too? Don’t you have better things to do? Maybe you think the airline I work for is unsafe? Mmmm well zero accident/ Serious incident in more than 25 years... You guys are unbelievable: You have no valuable argument and only know how to be offensive. I’m not perfect but I’m probably more professional than you and definitely a kinder person. Just reading some of your posts say a lot about how trash you can be towards over members.
May I remind you that you are fairly new here. Please show some respects to the community and stop polluting the topic. You wanna talk, you PM me. Thank you.
Great professional reply,you could have dished it back but thats not what pros do,well done

[CaptainMongo]

... You wanna be a monkey and follow blindly some counter productive rule who has be proven to be unsafe then be my guest but don’t tell me how to do my job. So far I have a clean record so I guess I’m not doing so bad. And it’s always in agreement with the rest of the crew otherwise I would have been reported. ... Open your eyes man. ...


Ah, so if everyone is agreeable, SOP can be violated, what a f-up cockpit you run.

The earth is littered with broken bodies and broken airplanes flown by pilots who thought SOP did not apply to them. Pilots who thought they were smarter than the engineers who designed the airplanes, smarter than the training folks who wrote the manuals, and smarter than the regulatory authorities. Pilots who, in your case, had a vote on which SOP will apply to each flight.

Your ‘clean record’ is an accident waiting to happen.