Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Tech Log
Reload this Page >

"Two in the cockpit"-rule?

Tech Log The very best in practical technical discussion on the web

"Two in the cockpit"-rule?

Old 13th Jan 2020, 11:50
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oslo
Posts: 21
"Two in the cockpit"-rule?

Are there any airlines still practicing the rule mandating a FA to enter the cockpit whenever a pilot leaves the flight deck for any reason? I heard it became optional around 2017 and that Lufthansa then scrapped it.
aerobus123 is offline  
Old 13th Jan 2020, 13:02
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Either the back of a sim, or wherever Crewing send me.
Posts: 926
The airline that I work for have always, and still do, require 2 flight deck occupants at all times. That is now in excess of 16 years. It’s not a problem at all.
Johnny F@rt Pants is offline  
Old 13th Jan 2020, 13:14
  #3 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oslo
Posts: 21
Originally Posted by Johnny [email protected] Pants View Post
The airline that I work for have always, and still do, require 2 flight deck occupants at all times. That is now in excess of 16 years. Itís not a problem at all.
What airline, may I ask?
aerobus123 is offline  
Old 13th Jan 2020, 13:23
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Ziltoidia... indeed'd.
Posts: 288
Same here, last two airlines I have worked for are still enforcing that policy.
iggy is online now  
Old 13th Jan 2020, 14:33
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: on theEdge...
Posts: 115
Same here, happy to do it.
TheEdge is offline  
Old 13th Jan 2020, 15:17
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 5
I donít normally do it but we are supposed to in my outfit. That rule is so ridiculous, itís outrageous. First of all it does not improve safety at all to have a FA in the cockpit. Thatís why many outfits stopped it. Iím not going to explain how easy it is to crash the plane regardless how many people are in cockpit as my message will be deleted but yep, totally useless. On the contrary itís creating a distraction to the remaining pilot who instead of flying the plane is most probably talking to the FA. We already had one case of altitude burst in my airline cause the captain was flirting with the cabin crew while the fo was in the toilet and read back the clearance of a company traffic with similar call sign.
pineteam is offline  
Old 13th Jan 2020, 15:29
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: 43N
Posts: 191
Originally Posted by pineteam View Post
I don’t normally do it but we are supposed to in my outfit. That rule is so ridiculous, it’s outrageous. First of all it does not improve safety at all to have a FA in the cockpit. That’s why many outfits stopped it. I’m not going to explain how easy it is to crash the plane regardless how many people are in cockpit as my message will be deleted but yep, totally useless. On the contrary it’s creating a distraction to the remaining pilot who instead of flying the plane is most probably talking to the FA. We already had one case of altitude burst in my airline cause the captain was flirting with the cabin crew while the fo was in the toilet and read back the clearance of a company traffic with similar call sign.

The problem at your outfit isn’t having a FA in the cockpit, it is pilots unable and unwilling to follow SOP and do the job they are paid to do.

The job of the FA in the cockpit isn’t to save the airplane, it is to open the cockpit door to allow the other pilot to save the airplane.
CaptainMongo is offline  
Old 13th Jan 2020, 15:31
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: IRS NAV ONLY
Posts: 850
We already had one case of altitude burst in my airline cause the captain was flirting with the cabin crew while the fo was in the toilet and read back the clearanceof a company traffic with similar call sign.
Sound like your airline needs more mature captains and/or better trained cabin crew, who should know not to distract pilots during the FD visit.

I work for an airline that has the rule and it works without any issues.
FlyingStone is offline  
Old 13th Jan 2020, 15:40
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 5
I cleared my message before a cry baby or a butt hurt reports me for spreading bad ideas. Happened to me before. But since you guys had time to read my scenario,I would be pleased to see how you could have saved the day. Remember you were in the toilet for potentially a number 2. xD

Last edited by pineteam; 13th Jan 2020 at 16:36.
pineteam is offline  
Old 13th Jan 2020, 16:41
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Either the back of a sim, or wherever Crewing send me.
Posts: 926
Aerobus

What airline, may I ask?
A friendly Northern airline
Johnny F@rt Pants is offline  
Old 13th Jan 2020, 16:52
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: h&h
Posts: 97
I completely agree with pineteam. It's a totally useless and windowdressing SOP to have at an extra occupant in the flightdeck when one of the pilots is out. It does not add any extra safety and in my opinion only causes more distraction (safety risk) and on top of that the flight-deck door stays open for a longer time (security risk).
I'm glad my company removed this SOP in 2017.
reivilo is offline  
Old 13th Jan 2020, 17:25
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: USVI
Posts: 60
Isnt it to prevent one pilot from locking the other out and flying the ac into a mountain on purpose?

Then there is this reasoning:
The German airline association BDL announced the change, which will come into effect by 1 June, on its website. It said its airlines will be re-introducing their original cockpit safety procedures.
BDL said that its airlines had “independently” reviewed the rules and decided that the two-person rule had no safety benefits – and could actually be more dangerous.
The group said the changes caused “more frequent and predictable” opening of the cockpit door and expanded the number of people with access to the cockpit.
Lufthansa, the country’s biggest airline, is one of the groups removing the requirement. Its airlines include Austrian Airlines, Swiss Airlines, and Eurowings – which was merged with Germanwings in 2015, a process which had begun before the company’s high-profile crash.



https://onemileatatime.com/two-perso...ule-abolished/
turbidus is offline  
Old 13th Jan 2020, 17:48
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 5
Thank you Reivilo. At least someone who has common sense. Actually Swissair has done an audit and they realised it was less safe to do this procedure.
@t Turbidus: Yes that’s the idea. But in reality it won’t work because it’s very easy for a pilot to put the aircraft in an unrecoverable upset situation within few seconds. That’s the reality. It’s foolish to believe otherwise.
pineteam is offline  
Old 13th Jan 2020, 18:00
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Tring, UK
Posts: 1,409
We (large arline) donít and never have. I assume the original safety case came out against it as Swissair/Lufthansa above, so sensible heads prevailed. The whole point of a locked door is to stop breaches of the flight deck, even by someone who knows how the locking system works - this was proven effective in the Eurowings crash. Itís also probably easier to have a ďsleeperĒ as CC than a pilot, so the threat surface would be expanded by the two-rule.
FullWings is offline  
Old 13th Jan 2020, 19:05
  #15 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oslo
Posts: 21
I get the argument, however, there are two reasons why the rule is beneficial IMO:

1) The cockpit door will still be open whenever a pilot wants a break (and returns). How does another person entering when one exits be a greater safety risk?

2) There is the psychological factor: Solitude is a major factor in mental issues including suicide. Most people will feel more at ease around other people and interacting with them, or at least feel compelled to not act improperly.

When youíre alone, itís not only you perceiving and being affected by your actions. For reasons ranging from our inherent sense of shame, not wanting to be seen or detected, to not wanting to hurt others, we donít do things we would do on our own with another person around. Think of yourself: How many things arenít there that youíd do when alone, but definitely not around other people, let alone a colleague? And the shame when you mistakenly realise youíre not alone - like your mother entering the room while youíre masturbating.

And a locked aircraft door is definitely a barrier between a lone pilot wearing noice-canceling headphones and the other people onboard, enough to create a sense of solitude. A suicidal pilot would without a doubt be far more likely to crash aircraft when alone than with another person on the flight deck he could talk with.

Letís just look at statistics: ALL pilot suicide crashes (Germanwings. Silkair, Egyptair, LAM Mozambique and probably MH370) involve the same scenario: One pilot alone on the flight deck. If having two people on the flight deck isnít a deterrance, why did these pilots wait until the other pilot left the flight deck before committing the act?

The only instance of pilot suicide with another person on the flight deck, was a Royal Air Maroc flight in 1994, where the captain was reported to have had romantic problems, also involving the female first officer rejecting his advances (e.g. a motive to hurt the person sitting in the flight deck!)

Apart from their presence alone being a deterrent, the other person could convince the suicidal pilot to retreat if he/she inexplicably would try to crash the plane (ęPlease, donít do it! Talk to me instead, I want to help you! Think about the passengers and their families!Ľ), or let the captain inside.



aerobus123 is offline  
Old 13th Jan 2020, 22:57
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Gusting49
Posts: 16
I fly for a major airline in between For around 10 months, 2 in the cockpit is not mandatory. Some captains still ask the cabin chief to be present in the cockpit when he is gone.

In my idea, it doesn’t improve the safety but may create distraction.

Just wondering, when you are two, does the cabin crew stand or sit in an “avaible” seat?
PapaEchoIndia is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2020, 07:22
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Mordor
Posts: 301
In one airline I used to work for, the 2 people in the cockpit rule was introduced as a knee jerk reaction, immediately after the Germanwings crash.

Result - we had two cases of lost comms in the first week alone.

Mind you, some of the CC were smoking hot, small wonder they proved to be a distraction
Sidestick_n_Rudder is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2020, 09:17
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Out of a bag
Posts: 516
In my 9 years of flying at several airlines which had the two person rule, Iíve never had an issue. If weíre chatting with the CC member, then the cockpit speaker is turned on to aid in monitoring RT. The CC know not to be insulted if I suddenly stick up my hand to stop them speaking if ATC call us.
We also ensure that CC donít come in until we are established in the cruise for precisely the reason another poster mentioned regarding level busts and distraction.
Iíve never found it to be an inconvenience or hassle. Ultimately I fly the way the company wants me to and if they want two people in the flight deck then Iím not about to argue the toss.
Flying Wild is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2020, 10:05
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: IRS NAV ONLY
Posts: 850
Originally Posted by PapaEchoIndia View Post
Just wondering, when you are two, does the cabin crew stand or sit in an ďavaibleĒ seat?
With us, they just sit in the 2nd jumpseat (737).
FlyingStone is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2020, 12:03
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 5
For us they are supposed to stand up close to the door. But as far as I know most fellow pilots offer them to sit down on the jumpseat.
pineteam is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.