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Nil further
12th Jan 2020, 22:02
If this is true https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/regional-airline-flybe-in-frantic-bid-to-stave-off-collapse-11907407

Doesnt look good

Wickerbill
12th Jan 2020, 22:17
Not widely reported at the moment. Anyone else have any reliable news?
Edit: Actually there is a fair bit of Twitter traffic. What awful news. Let's hope they get through.

beamender99
12th Jan 2020, 22:24
https://news.sky.com/story/regional-airline-flybe-in-frantic-bid-to-stave-off-collapse-11907407

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18155405.flybe-locked-talks-avoid-administration/

ETOPS
13th Jan 2020, 03:47
Being somewhat involved I have to say this has come as a complete shock.
Thinking of all the Flybe family this morning - lots of very good people facing a very difficult day.

Weathergirly
13th Jan 2020, 06:18
Widely reported this morning Flybe on the brink of collapse.
Virgin & Stobart purchased all the Airlines assets exactly 12 months ago and now they are sending the Airline down the river. White collar criminals.

2Planks
13th Jan 2020, 07:18
Well, without the injection of cash from Connect, they would have 'gone down the river', 12 months ago. If the rumours are true perhaps its just not a viable business. Calling them criminals appears to be without foundation and potentially libellous.

For the sake of all the employees and pax with tickets, I hope it works out.

RexBanner
13th Jan 2020, 07:26
Been on the cards for a long, long time now. When I left seven years ago they were in trouble and holed below the water line, they plugged it but only temporarily. That said itís a terribly traumatic time for the guys and girls there and I wish them all the best and good luck.

Flying Wild
13th Jan 2020, 07:47
Flybe tight-lipped over collapse threat https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51089118

slowjet
13th Jan 2020, 08:00
Mate of mine with Blue Island. Would they be in trouble too ?

Nil by mouth
13th Jan 2020, 08:01
I can only draw comparisons with defunct airlines here in Spain, Spanair being just one in a very long list.
Competition comes from not other airlines but from road and rail, which is probably the case now in the United Kingdom.
A flight from Madrid to Barcelona is very quick, 1 hour 15 minutes, however check in and security procedures add on a couple of hours or so. The cost for this flight is around 95 Euros.
For the same cost a seat in a comfortable high speed train will get you there in 2 hours 30 minutes.

Livesinafield
13th Jan 2020, 08:05
Just to clear that up, competition is not flybe's issue, they operate at near 90% load factors, there flights are full, its debt and financial commitments that are constantly spiraling out of control

thelowflyer
13th Jan 2020, 08:09
Myself and 5 others were accepted on to the Flybe MPL course at L3 just before Christmas, this is incredibly disappointing to say the least!

CEJM
13th Jan 2020, 08:12
Good luck to all at Flybe in this difficult time. Keeping my fingers crossed for you.

Livesinafield, I am sure that I am not telling you anything new when I say that full flights donít tell the whole story. To get that high load factor they may need to undercut the competition and as a result lose money.

hayes67
13th Jan 2020, 08:36
Gutted to hear this kind of news, both Monarch and Flybe were/are my preferred choices everytime, both damn good airlines and damn good customer services at least at the airports when and if needed. I sing Flybe praises to anybody that thinks of booking with MOL for so many reasons. Just hope you good guys and girls have a good news day. Stay safe.
Chris.

fergusd
13th Jan 2020, 08:48
For the same cost a seat in a comfortable high speed train will get you there in 2 hours 30 minutes.

There are no high speed, comfortable or even vaguely affordable trains in the UK . . . flying on carriers like flybe is, practically, the only way for many people to travel.

marchino61
13th Jan 2020, 08:58
There are no high speed, comfortable or even vaguely affordable trains in the UK . . . flying on carriers like flybe is, practically, the only way for many people to travel.

The Independent is saying that changes to the train service between Exeter and London have had an adverse effect on flybe.

Demand remains soft, and some competing rail links are improving Ė in southwest England, for example, new rail timetables introduced on GWR a month ago dramatically improved services from Devon to London, damaging the appeal of the Flybe link from Exeter to the capital.

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/flybe-collapse-bust-administration-atol-flight-virgin-atlantic-stobart-a9280941.html

BEagle
13th Jan 2020, 09:07
There are no high speed, comfortable or even vaguely affordable trains in the UK . . . flying on carriers like flybe is, practically, the only way for many people to travel.

100% correct! I was looking recently at having to travel from West Oxfordshire to Edinburgh for a 2 day conference. The options were 7 hours and 2 or 3 changes by train - or to drive to BHX and fly with flyBe - which was quicker and cheaper with the guarantee of a seat.

golfbananajam
13th Jan 2020, 09:39
100% correct! I was looking recently at having to travel from West Oxfordshire to Edinburgh for a 2 day conference. The options were 7 hours and 2 or 3 changes by train - or to drive to BHX and fly with flyBe - which was quicker and cheaper with the guarantee of a seat.

It would have been quicker and, probably, cheaper to drive would it not?

fantom
13th Jan 2020, 09:42
From the AOL news feed:Flybe bosses have held crunch talks with the Government in a bid to save the airline.

Discussions were held with the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (BEIS) and the Department for Transport (DfT) over the weekend to see whether they could provide or facilitate emergency financing, the PA news agency understands.

Around 2,000 people are employed by the airline.

The Exeter-based carrier was bought by a consortium consisting of Virgin Atlantic, Stobart Group and Cyrus Capital in February 2019 following poor financial results.

The consortium, known as Connect Airways, paid just £2.2 million for Flybe's assets but pledged to pump tens of millions of pounds into the loss-making airline to turn it around.

SometimeFlyer
13th Jan 2020, 09:54
Sad news, good airline and great people. Fingers crossed.

Wing Commander Fowler
13th Jan 2020, 09:59
Myself and 5 others were accepted on to the Flybe MPL course at L3 just before Christmas, this is incredibly disappointing to say the least!
Check PM low flyer

a5in_the_sim
13th Jan 2020, 10:07
From the AOL news feed:Flybe bosses have held crunch talks with the Government in a bid to save the airline.

Discussions were held with the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (BEIS) and the Department for Transport (DfT) over the weekend to see whether they could provide or facilitate emergency financing, the PA news agency understands.

Around 2,000 people are employed by the airline.

The Exeter-based carrier was bought by a consortium consisting of Virgin Atlantic, Stobart Group and Cyrus Capital in February 2019 following poor financial results.

The consortium, known as Connect Airways, paid just £2.2 million for Flybe's assets but pledged to pump tens of millions of pounds into the loss-making airline to turn it around.


Well for observers of the recent collapses in the UK (Monarch and Thomas Cook) we know that those BEIS and DfT ďleversĒ arenít connected to anything. Pulling on them is unlikely to yield much positive help. Another business run to ground by grandiose plans and unaffordable finance. Yet again there will be much groaning and gnashing of teeth but no one will be held accountable and the staff and suppliers will bear the brunt of the suffering.........And round and round we go!


https://youtu.be/9bFem99jFjs

Chris the Robot
13th Jan 2020, 12:05
No doubt a very difficult time for both the ticket holders and those within Flybe, hopefully the airline will find some way to continue on. I've seen it pointed out on here in the past that the main players in the European airline market will be IAG, AF/KLM, Lufthansa Group, Easyjet and Ryanair. There will be a few others around serving perhaps some of the niche/local markets but the aforementioned five will pretty much dominate. As the Indy mentioned, as soon as regional airlines identify the demand, the larger carriers arrive with their stronger economies of scale and price out the competition.

There are no high speed, comfortable or even vaguely affordable trains in the UK . . . flying on carriers like flybe is, practically, the only way for many people to travel.

It depends heavily on which journey a passenger wishes to take. Most journeys to/from London, or to/from any locations along one of the main lines out of London, tend to be fairly fast, for example Newcastle-London can be as done is as little as 2hr40mins. Anything that's from one regional city to another (e.g. Derby-Southampton, or Bristol-Newcastle) tends to be much slower, that's where regional airlines would appear to have a niche. The railway fares system is very cheap if you book 12 weeks in advance, flying is most likely better if you need something at shorter notice.

As for comfort, Class 220/221/222 and Class 390 trains, which together form quite a considerable portion of the express fleet, were designed to operate in a tilting mode to increase speed to curved sections of track. The British loading gauge, which is one of the most restrictive in the world, required that due to the tilt feature, the bodyshells be narrower than usual. Therefore, the interior of these trains is very cramped. Anything that's derived from Mark 3 coaching stock, e.g. the HST, tends to be far better especially with the original IC70 seating which has lots of tables.

If HS2 is done properly, I think flying between London and Scotland will be massively reduced in the way that Eurostar has taken 80% of the combined Air/Rail market between London and Paris.

inOban
13th Jan 2020, 12:51
100% correct! I was looking recently at having to travel from West Oxfordshire to Edinburgh for a 2 day conference. The options were 7 hours and 2 or 3 changes by train - or to drive to BHX and fly with flyBe - which was quicker and cheaper with the guarantee of a seat.
Having driven to BHX, why didn't you get the train, every two hours, takes 4, interrupted work time? Advance tickets are often quite cheap. And if the plane was cheaper, then no wonder Flybe are in trouble.

Vendee
13th Jan 2020, 12:56
If HS2 is done properly, I think flying between London and Scotland will be massively reduced in the way that Eurostar has taken 80% of the combined Air/Rail market between London and Paris.

I think pricing is key. Rail is now my preferred method when going to Paris or other places in France on the TGV network but a lot of that is because Eurostar and SNCF fares can be very affordable, especially when booked well in advance. Add to that the quicker checking in/security times, the generous (and free) luggage allowance and going directly to the city centre makes things very pleasant. I just can't see HS2 fares being cheap. I think the operators will be targeting the business sector who will be prepared to pay through the nose to shave some time off their journey.

Jollygreengaint
13th Jan 2020, 13:20
Sky news leaks again. These leaks are carefully planned to have a calculated outcome. Look what happened to the Flybe share price with the Sky News leaks last year. Wake Mr Kleinman, you have well and truly been used again! I'm surprised SFO.govt.uk haven't been in touch.

misd-agin
13th Jan 2020, 13:41
Just to clear that up, competition is not flybe's issue, they operate at near 90% load factors, there flights are full, its debt and financial commitments that are constantly spiraling out of control

Even with high load factors competition can be a factor. If there's a lot of competition the price competition can be fierce. That reduces revenue/yields to the point that the term 'full loads' is meaningless.

fergusd
13th Jan 2020, 14:28
The railway fares system is very cheap if you book 12 weeks in advance, flying is most likely better if you need something at shorter notice.

Incredible, by the dictionary definition of the word.

3 months prior notice . . . how many people can make use of that ridiculous limitation ? . . .

While I don't doubt either the fare or timescale you quote, that is an unusable restriction for most people.

Rail travel, for me, is so far from being a viable option in any respect, cost, timscales, inconvenience, that I would be better driving . . . which is cheaper, no slower and much more convenient . . . what a ridiculous observation, but true none the less.

You observation of how wonderful rail is near London does not, strangely, equate to it being wonderful anywhere else.

flight_mode
13th Jan 2020, 14:52
Incredible, by the dictionary definition of the word.
3 months prior notice . . . how many people can make use of that ridiculous limitation ? . . .

Tens of thousands of airline passengers do!

cats_five
13th Jan 2020, 15:23
Having driven to BHX, why didn't you get the train, every two hours, takes 4, interrupted work time? Advance tickets are often quite cheap. And if the plane was cheaper, then no wonder Flybe are in trouble.

Flybe return from EDI to BHX was £75 last October, brought well in advance. Most of that (£55 ISTR) was taxes.

Maninthebar
13th Jan 2020, 15:26
Flybe return from EDI to BHX was £75 last October, brought well in advance. Most of that (£55 ISTR) was taxes.

Can it REALLY cost £20 per seat for this service? The wages of the flight crew would eat that up sharpish no?

Andrewgr2
13th Jan 2020, 15:42
Book today and you can travel one way Birmingham to Edinburgh direct next Tuesday for £40. About 4 hours between city centres. 1/3 off if you hold a railcard. No security or check in delays. Some trains are a lot more expensive though thanks to the vagaries of the fare system.

Andrewgr2
13th Jan 2020, 15:45
In fact I see you can book the 12.15 tomorrow for the same £40 price.

BRUpax
13th Jan 2020, 15:52
In fact I see you can book the 12.15 tomorrow for the same £40 price.

I would suggest that is because 12.15 is off peak. And it's off peak because there is much less demand for business travel at that time. You will find that the same applies to air fares.

Chris the Robot
13th Jan 2020, 16:05
The way the rail fare system works is that with longer journeys, a certain number of tickets for each journey are sold as "advance" tickets, these are up to 75% off the walk up on the day price but are restricted to a specific train at a certain time. They go on sale 12 weeks before the date of travel, once the 75% off advances are sold, the next slightly more expensive advances become available until all of them are sold out and so-on until no advances at all are left. On some services, it's possible to purchase a relatively cheap advance the day before travel. It is possible to switch one advance for another for a small fee and any difference in price between the two. It's also possible to split-ticket journeys so long as the train stops at all of the stations where the journey is split. Of course, airlines generally have a bit more flexibility in how they price and sell tickets because they are not subject to franchising.

The main advantage the railway has business-wise over regional airlines is that most train operators will always be there. Look at the East Coast Main Line for example. It was originally privatised as GNER, then once they weren't financially viable any more it became National Express. NE subsequently handed it back to the government who a few years later re-privatised it as Virgin East Coast. It's now been re-nationalised again. Most of the staff are TUPE'd over from one organisation to the next. In the UK, the only train companies that can go properly bust are freight operators and the open access passenger operators which are not subject to franchising and whom make use of spare track capacity.

Unless there is a nationalised regional airline, or one that largely operates PSO routes underpinned by government cash, then I think the regional airline industry will have a tough battle against rail. Things will only get more difficult as additional rail infrastructure is developed.

Atlantic Explorer
13th Jan 2020, 17:00
In fact I see you can book the 12.15 tomorrow for the same £40 price.

little wonder theyíre in the financial mire with prices like that.

Johnny F@rt Pants
13th Jan 2020, 17:04
little wonder they’re in the financial mire with prices like that.

That’s the rail fare:}

Apate
13th Jan 2020, 17:09
little wonder theyíre in the financial mire with prices like that.

£40 is the rail fare, not the Flybe fare for tomorrow. The BEE return fare is in excess of £300 ;)

EastMids
13th Jan 2020, 17:14
Reportedly seeking delays to multi-million pound APD payments...

https://news.sky.com/story/flybe-begs-ministers-for-help-with-air-duty-bill-11908014

geardown1
13th Jan 2020, 17:46
Just landed in EDI (diff airline) and the ground crew said that the dash 8's are getting put on a remote stand tonight and they've cancelled their catering orders/toilet service bookings. Doesn't sound good :(

FL370 Officeboy
13th Jan 2020, 17:52
For those championing the train and how it will be the death knell for domestic flying - that won't happen until such time trains route direct from the cities to the hub airports. It doesn't matter how fast HS2 is from the north to London, no-one is going to lug their bags across London when they can just check their bags in at MAN / NCL / EDI / GLA and connect through the hub to a longhaul flight. Point to point domestic flying is not why BA (and in future VIrgin Connect) operate domestic flights.

Flyingfisher
13th Jan 2020, 18:01
I know a lot of people that have worked there in the past and present and and have the greatest respect for all the workers and the business model they tried to implement. However is there really a market for an independent regional airline any longer. Only the large airlines who wet lease the regional routes to smaller airline seem to work for both.Surely it is time for the new owners to fund the airline they purchased a few months ago to get through the winter period not the government or will we see what government policy will be post brexit even before Brexit happens.
A really sad day for all airline staff.

Mister Geezer
13th Jan 2020, 18:16
It will also not be an easy time for those staff at airlines that are dependant on the Flybe brand, such as franchise partners Eastern and Blue Islands. Furthermore, there will be some airport operators that will no doubt be nervous at the thought of their major airline ceasing to trade. The vast majority of flights at Southampton are operated by Flybe, so the wider implications could be significant.

Tinwald
13th Jan 2020, 18:45
'The BEE return fare is in excess of £300' ..another reason they deserve to go bust. My girl did a return to Miami a few weeks ago for £435 with BA and no, she didn't book 3 months ahead. Flybe need to recalibrate there seating policies and actually attract custom -0 now that would be a novelty.

AirportPlanner1
13th Jan 2020, 18:51
little wonder theyíre in the financial mire with prices like that.

To be fair a considerably larger Irish airline has seats on sale tomorrow for 9.99.

Nil by mouth
13th Jan 2020, 18:51
In my post #10 I highlighted road rail vs. fly in Spain.
In July last year I flew into Bristol from Gibraltar (EasyJet £39 from memory) to collect a car from Newquay
The cost from BRS to NQY was around £200 for a two stop nine hour journey. One of the legs was with Flybe
I went with National express from Bristol to Newquay (Wadebridge) for about £25 that took just under five hours.

RoyHudd
13th Jan 2020, 19:08
Some very stupid postings above. BE do not "deserve to go bust" because of some high fares. Perhaps Tinwald's company deserve to go bust for some arbitrary reason. Not nice for employees to read.

As for the idiot who cites unfeasible routings like BRS-NQY being expensive, he/she needs to shut up. Imagine how much a LGW-LHR costs by air, (via say GLA) compared to the bus fare?

And they and others are unable to spell. Or identify an airline...BEE? Dear God.

Chris the Robot
13th Jan 2020, 19:14
For those championing the train and how it will be the death knell for domestic flying - that won't happen until such time trains route direct from the cities to the hub airports. It doesn't matter how fast HS2 is from the north to London, no-one is going to lug their bags across London when they can just check their bags in at MAN / NCL / EDI / GLA and connect through the hub to a longhaul flight. Point to point domestic flying is not why BA (and in future VIrgin Connect) operate domestic flights.

About 15 years ago, my family and I dropped our bags at a regional airport and got a domestic flight into LHR for an international connection. Our bags joined a massive pile of about 12,000 other bags in a massive room and we received them about a week later. The airline were still allowing people to drop their bags at their origin airport knowing that they would go into the pile and didn't insist on people taking them across the airport manually. The "official" line was that a conveyor belt had broken but I think there was more to it than that.

Nonetheless, I can see why someone who hadn't experienced that would want to have their bags automatically transferred from one aircraft to another.

I feel badly for the staff at Flybe, it can't be nice having to operate a safety-critical service with the amount of uncertainty going on. I think that if there is to be a service connecting regional airports not involving one of the larger hubs, it would have to have some sort of protection from competition or a subsidy, in the way that the railway does, in order for such a service to be profitable.

portsharbourflyer
13th Jan 2020, 19:24
I wander how much of Flybe's issues are partly linked to the fleet choice. I believe the fuel burn on the Dash 8 is 33% more than an ATR72.
There are good reasons why the ATR has outsold the Dash 8. Thats a significant cost implication.

Apate
13th Jan 2020, 19:26
Or identify an airline...BEE? Dear God.

BEE is the ICAO three letter identifier for Flybe. You know, the identifier that Professional Pilots would use. Dear God! :ugh:

flight_mode
13th Jan 2020, 19:41
I wander how much of Flybe's issues are partly linked to the fleet choice. I believe the fuel burn on the Dash 8 is 33% more than an ATR72.
There are good reasons why the ATR has outsold the Dash 8. Thats a significant cost implication.
Not just fuel burn. Maintenance costs are also sky high.

ivor toolbox
13th Jan 2020, 19:52
Not just fuel burn. Maintenance costs are also sky high.
And so is cost of acquisition....but Flybe are in a mess of their own making (or at least the making of two or more previous CEO ) , at least fuel burn on Dash is less than fuel burn on Embraer Jets

Ttfn

Jagwar
13th Jan 2020, 19:58
Although we wouldn't miss the noise pollution of the Dash 8s ..........

RoyHudd
13th Jan 2020, 20:01
BEE is the ICAO three letter identifier for Flybe. You know, the identifier that Professional Pilots would use. Dear God! :ugh:
I stand corrected. But as an ATPL with over 10,500 hrs on A320/321/330, I never used BEE, although we positioned on the airline often. ICAO codes are not employed much in Europe, IATA codes always. On my roster, on flight boards, everywhere. . However, you are quite correct. :(

tailend
13th Jan 2020, 20:03
Jets simply don't work on super short haul. That's what did Flybe in. Turboprop Q400's perfect, E195's inappropriate. Didn't anyone run the spreadsheet models?
Flybe deserve to survive, Connect must have known what they were getting into for the almost free acquisition of an airline. Didn't anyone run the spreadsheet models....?

ETOPS
13th Jan 2020, 20:10
Iím party to the comms between Flybe crew tonight. Real tears - real despair and anger. Some will struggle to keep a roof over their heads...
So very sorry guys 😥

flash8
13th Jan 2020, 20:18
Didn't anyone run the spreadsheet models....?Management did for sure on their bonuses!

Arkroyal
13th Jan 2020, 20:23
I stand corrected. But as an ATPL with over 10,500 hrs on A320/321/330, I never used BEE, although we positioned on the airline often. ICAO codes are not employed much in Europe, IATA codes always. On my roster, on flight boards, everywhere. . However, you are quite correct. :(

Glad I didnít have to share your flight deck for any of those hours! Canít you be civil?

Compton3fox
13th Jan 2020, 20:35
I wonder how this will impact Blue Islands and the routes they operate for Flybe? Could they operate them as BI tomorrow for example?

Locker10a
13th Jan 2020, 20:36
Iím party to the comms between Flybe crew tonight. Real tears - real despair and anger. Some will struggle to keep a roof over their heads...
So very sorry guys 😥

very sad to hear this, is there more substance/rumour to the aircraft being remotely parked tonight ?
Iíve an early morning flight with them in the morning, hope it goes mostly for the staff many whoíve given many years of service

RexBanner
13th Jan 2020, 20:50
very sad to hear this, is there more substance/rumour to the aircraft being remotely parked tonight ?
Iíve an early morning flight with them in the morning, hope it goes mostly for the staff many whoíve given many years of service

And some of these people are the same people who went through the ringer six/seven years ago and relocated families from the Channel Islands etc. my thoughts are with everyone at Flybe but especially those who upped sticks for the sole purpose of a job with Flybe who now have no job either in their new locales or back home. Terrible situation.

BRUpax
13th Jan 2020, 21:11
ICAO codes are not employed much in Europe

Roy, ICAO codes are used by all ATC units in Europe. When ATC and or pilots talk socially we use ICAO codes (or callsigns). Most ATC guys wouldn't use IATA codes for the good reason that they don't know most of them.

RoyHudd
13th Jan 2020, 21:38
Thank you.

I never talk socially using IATA or ICAO codes. Perhaps I am not a pilot after all. I did think I was. I am certainly not an ATC guy/lady.

2Planks
13th Jan 2020, 21:54
Sky News now reporting that ministerial talks will take place tomorrow regarding deferment of APD taxes due in turn for significant investment from the owners. Fingers crossed.

Kit Sanbumps KG
13th Jan 2020, 21:56
Sad news, good airline and great people. Fingers crossed.

No. An appalling airline with a disgraceful attitude to its passengers. The ‘flymaybe’ epithet was well deserved.

As someone who has routinely suffered their awful service, it’s good riddance.

I should add, it used to be a very different animal, and I’m sure there were individuals working there who tried hard, but the overall offering was unpalatable and not fit for the modern marketplace.

Schoenheit
13th Jan 2020, 21:58
The significant investment was already supposed to be done in exchange for being allowed purchase the company rather than the last management team
sending it in to administration. The taxman will never recoup this 100m APD if repayment is deferred.

Livesinafield
13th Jan 2020, 22:08
No. An appalling airline with a disgraceful attitude to its passengers.

As someone who has routinely suffered their awful service, itís good riddance.

I should add, it used to be a very different animal.


Well you're a lovely character arn't you? Thanks for that!

Let's hope you never fall on uneven ground, you may hate Flybe for no doubt unrealistic reasons, but they keep a roof over many families heads.
What a vile person you are

DooblerChina
13th Jan 2020, 22:11
No. An appalling airline with a disgraceful attitude to its passengers.

As someone who has routinely suffered their awful service, itís good riddance.

I should add, it used to be a very different animal.

I will never say good riddance as I feel for the crews and staff involved but letís not kid ourselves it is a good airline.

I recently got charged £35 for my cabin bag as it was too big to fit in the stupid abnormally small gauges. To add insult to injury, I quite literally walked it to the baggage handlers myself at the side of the dash 8. 35 quid for 6 kg bag on a 30 minute flight? Unbelievable.

60% of the passengers had the same problem as I did and probably (like myself) said Iím not flying with this tin pot organisation again.

DaveReidUK
13th Jan 2020, 22:16
Shock news: a 4-abreast cabin has smaller lockers than a 6-abreast one. If only Flybe had bought 737s or A320s ...

Nil further
13th Jan 2020, 22:17
No truth to parking rumour re EDI , ops normal . GLA Ops normal too.

Kit Sanbumps KG
13th Jan 2020, 22:19
Well you're a lovely character arn't you? Thanks for that!

Let's hope you never fall on uneven ground, you may hate Flybe for no doubt unrealistic reasons, but they keep a roof over many families heads.
What a vile person you are

Perfectly realistic reasons: many unpleasant flights, often delayed, sometimes cancelled, completely unreliable, never comfortable, mediocre service at best, and the Q400 is an appalling machine from the passengerís perspective. Truth hurts, I guess.

DooblerChina
13th Jan 2020, 22:27
Shock news: a 4-abreast cabin has smaller lockers than a 6-abreast one. If only Flybe had bought 737s or A320s ...

True but most people have no idea what aircraft they are flying on and if the lockers are too small for most peoples bags, they should be tagged and loaded for free like every other airline iíve ever flown on. Flybe used to do this.....

Anyway, you are missing the point, crap customer service and the only airline Iíve ever used that literally charges at the gate, and that includes the Irish lot.

I do still hope they pull through, customer service can be fixed, people losing houses is a different matter.

L4key
13th Jan 2020, 22:27
Perfectly realistic reasons: many unpleasant flights, often delayed, sometimes cancelled, completely unreliable, never comfortable, mediocre service at best, and the Q400 is an appalling machine from the passengerís perspective. Truth hurts, I guess.

Not my experience. I've been MAN EDI once a week rtn for the last three years, only twice had a flight cancelled and rarely late. Itís been an excellent service, staff superb.

They changed the cabin bag size last year and it is a crazy small bag now that is allowed but they do tell you on booking (twice, once again with an email pre flight) to check your bag dimensions.

Hereís hoping they can keep going!

flyerguy
14th Jan 2020, 00:17
No truth to parking rumour re EDI , ops normal . GLA Ops normal too.


Flybe aircraft are Edinburgh for the mornings departures are on Stands 28/33/30/29/31/32/309 which are remote stands looking at relevant charts - however flights have used these stands throughout the 13th so I wouldnít look into it

aox
14th Jan 2020, 00:17
True but most people have no idea what aircraft they are flying on and if the lockers are too small for most peoples bags, they should be tagged and loaded for free like every other airline iíve ever flown on. Flybe used to do this.....

The hand luggage size allowed is published on the website.

If your complaint was they are wrongly enforcing something smaller, I expect we'd have heard that already.

​​​​​​

crewmeal
14th Jan 2020, 05:11
Flybe were featured on Rip off Britain again ast week by advertising a bag which proved to exceed its own dimensions. The poor guy was charged £40 to put it in the hold.
On a different note would someone explain why the government are thrasing out a deal to defer APD for three years when they wouldn't help Thomas Cook at all?

Wycombe
14th Jan 2020, 05:56
Flybe were featured on Rip off Britain again ast week by advertising a bag which proved to exceed its own dimensions. The poor guy was charged £40 to put it in the hold.
On a different note would someone explain why the government are thrasing out a deal to defer APD for three years when they wouldn't help Thomas Cook at all?

Primarily because Thomas Cook were a holiday airline and Flybe's remit is regional/lifeline connectivity, which the Govt have championed as key to their post-election strategy.

macdo
14th Jan 2020, 06:03
Flybe were featured on Rip off Britain again ast week by advertising a bag which proved to exceed its own dimensions. The poor guy was charged £40 to put it in the hold.
On a different note would someone explain why the government are thrashing out a deal to defer APD for three years when they wouldn't help Thomas Cook at all?
There are quite a few potential reasons.
The obvious one is that the numbers involved in propping up Flybe are tiny compared to a TC rescue. The final bill is another argument.
Flybe, it can be argued, is a vital part of UK infrastructure for regional communications.
There has been a change of government and the purse strings have been loosened.
Brexit is no longer sapping almost all the government's resources..
A modification to APD is politically more acceptable than a full rescue package.
There are probably more reasons.

ExpectmorePayless
14th Jan 2020, 06:22
If a government handout (from taxpayers that's you and I), then I'd rather the government buy the whole lot for £2.4 million as was the most recent purchase price and nationalise it for a future sell off rather like the banks.
What I am opposed to is a government bailout to private equity firms and multi billionaire owners, for them to continue to run a failing business and reward themselves huge salaries, bonuses and siphon off capital into third party holding companies.
The hard working frontline staff deserve better than these greedy owners and their overpaid, inept and failing management.

Eutychus
14th Jan 2020, 06:32
As someone whose laptop was successfully recovered, the following day, from a Flybe flight to Southend last week, I'd be very sorrry to see them go.

Losing point-to-point connections across the Channel would also be a blow. Getting to south-west England from abroad without travelling via a hub (rail or air) used to be a lot easier than it is now.

Livesinafield
14th Jan 2020, 07:10
If a government handout (from taxpayers that's you and I), then I'd rather the government buy the whole lot for £2.4 million as was the most recent purchase price and nationalise it for a future sell off rather like the banks.
What I am opposed to is a government bailout to private equity firms and multi billionaire owners, for them to continue to run a failing business and reward themselves huge salaries, bonuses and siphon off capital into third party holding companies.
The hard working frontline staff deserve better than these greedy owners and their overpaid, inept and failing management.
I don't think it's a Handout, it's just some relief from the "environmental" tax for a while I guess until they can try and sort it all out, they are currently undergoing a big turn around plan to try and get it back to profitability, there have been some fairly big changes but it's only been 6 months, hopefully it works

bucoops
14th Jan 2020, 07:23
Best of luck to Flybe and its staff. They are (for me) a convenient way to get from London to Aberdeen. A bit pricey but that's the price of convenience, no?

The only "issue" I've ever had is when LCY was not allowing anyone to land due to weather. The Flybe reps kept us informed, helped me re-book for free when I decided that my trip wasn't worth doing - 90% of the time I go to Aberdeen I fly back same-day. On a day of chaos they were professional and courteous.

Every time I have flown with them I've had no complaints whatsoever.

Avman
14th Jan 2020, 07:40
Until experiencing a fair number of delays, cancellations and poor customer service (not from the excellent front line crews I must add), I was a fairly regular user of Flybe. For the reasons given I completely stopped using them from mid 2014. Fortunately the route I traveled most frequently offered me other options. Having said that I would prefer to see the personnel keep their jobs and for the airline to survive and flourish again. Good luck to all.

Pumal1w
14th Jan 2020, 07:53
Some very stupid postings above. BE do not "deserve to go bust" because of some high fares. Perhaps Tinwald's company deserve to go bust for some arbitrary reason. Not nice for employees to read.

As for the idiot who cites unfeasible routings like BRS-NQY being expensive, he/she needs to shut up. Imagine how much a LGW-LHR costs by air, (via say GLA) compared to the bus fare?

And they and others are unable to spell. Or identify an airline...BEE? Dear God.


Wow, Iíve flown with some guys over the years with suspect CRM qualities, but I think youíd probably surpass them all...... Dear God!!......

Hipennine
14th Jan 2020, 08:13
From a north-east perspective, it has never ceased to amaze me how competitive Flybe fares are compared with the train. Travelling to and from the NE to the Midlands, South and South West, the trains are slow, extremely expensive, overcrowded, squalid, usually late and recently mostly cancelled. I have saved £000's by flying to EXE or SOU rather than taking the train. However, that has been because of my own research rather than any brand awareness building by Flybe. Their marketing has been completely ineffective.

Nil by mouth
14th Jan 2020, 08:19
As for the idiot who cites unfeasible routings like BRS-NQY being expensive, he/she needs to shut up. Imagine how much a LGW-LHR costs by air, (via say GLA) compared to the bus fare?



This from the objectionable Roy Hudd character who has to stand corrected for his ineptitude.

There is nothing idiotic for a visiting non UK resident to look up available routes from one place to another, most people do this when in foreign parts.
Politeness within these forums goes a long way, perhaps Mr. Hudd should address the forum rules that relate to ad hominem

Torquelink
14th Jan 2020, 08:22
Presumably fairly catastrophic for airports like EXT and SOU at least in the short term but I don't suppose they have the financial wherewithal to help the airline significantly. Layoffs followed by pitches to other carriers to try to pick up the slack but it would take time - especially as nobody else has the right equipment. Fingers Xd for all involved.

EastMids
14th Jan 2020, 08:33
The reported delayed APD payments amounts to a similar sum to the original proposed bailout from Connect. So did Connect Airways (Cyrus / Stobart / Virgin) put in the promised £100m? Or did the promise of a takeover release the credit card acquirers' withholdings and enable Flybe to carry on until now without a massive injection of cash? Or a combination of the two? Or was the promised cash injection smoke and mirrors and funding may now end up coming from the public purse rather than the consortium?

anothertyke
14th Jan 2020, 08:47
The reported delayed APD payments amounts to a similar sum to the original proposed bailout from Connect. So did Connect Airways (Cyrus / Stobart / Virgin) put in the promised £100m? Or did the promise of a takeover release the credit card acquirers' withholdings and enable Flybe to carry on until now without a massive injection of cash? Or a combination of the two? Or was the promised cash injection smoke and mirrors and funding may now end up coming from the public purse rather than the consortium?

Yes these are good questions. Others are what the carbon tax element of APD ought to be for short haul, and what the Govt would need to do in terms of PSO if the whole network went under. Maybe the biggest question surrounds the medium term financial sustainability of the operation if a deferral is granted. That's more fundamental than immediate liquidity.

Pumal1w
14th Jan 2020, 08:51
This from the objectionable Roy Hudd character who has to stand corrected for his ineptitude.

There is nothing idiotic for a visiting non UK resident to look up available routes from one place to another, most people do this when in foreign parts.
Politeness within these forums goes a long way, perhaps Mr. Hudd should address the forum rules that relate to ad hominem


100% agree Sir 👍🏻👍🏻

Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP
14th Jan 2020, 08:55
If the government do some sort of deal that helps FlyBe out of their current mess then there will be calls from all the other competitors for the same treatment.

Solving one problem will only create many others. OíLeary will go nuts as will BA, EasyJet and anyone else that offers domestic flights. And rightly so.

CEJM
14th Jan 2020, 09:13
If the government do some sort of deal that helps FlyBe out of their current mess then there will be calls from all the other competitors for the same treatment.

Solving one problem will only create many others. OíLeary will go nuts as will BA, EasyJet and anyone else that offers domestic flights. And rightly so.

It wonít even be only from current airlines. It wouldnít surprise me if question will be asked by ex shareholders from companies who have gone bust in the last few years. Those that asked the government for help and were sent packing.

I appreciate that some Flybe services are essential but the government would be better placed to financially support these few routes and have Eastern, Loganair etc. operate them.

Sallyann1234
14th Jan 2020, 09:13
Solving one problem will only create many others. OíLeary will go nuts as will BA, EasyJet and anyone else that offers domestic flights. And rightly so.
Let them take over FlyBe's routes then - ALL of them - and see if they can provide the same excellent service.

Livesinafield
14th Jan 2020, 09:23
If the government do some sort of deal that helps FlyBe out of their current mess then there will be calls from all the other competitors for the same treatment.

Solving one problem will only create many others. OíLeary will go nuts as will BA, EasyJet and anyone else that offers domestic flights. And rightly so.


Actually Flybe in theory should be going nuts, paying the same amount of "environment" Tax as Ryanair BA and Easy, yet in a far far more eco friendly aircraft... that seems fair too

Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP
14th Jan 2020, 09:26
If FlyBe are losing money with their current routes and structures why would anybody want to take it over? They might be able to sell off any profitable bits but at this stage it is nothing more than a fire sale. As has always happened, the competition will wait until they can pick off the bits they want from the liquidators.

Hopefully they can find a way/backer but it is not the governmentís job to prop up loss making airlines.

RoyHudd
14th Jan 2020, 09:26
Politeness aside, I earnestly hope Flybe survive. The APD solution may be the way forward, which would save the government's face and enable 2000 aviation jobs to continue, as well as improving the lot of UK airlines. Having 3 times lost a flying job due to inept management and government intransigence, I am well aware of the misery that sudden unemployment brings.

Unpleasant comments along the lines of " they deserve to go bust", and "it takes 9 hours to fly from Bristol to Newquay and is very expensive compared to the bus" are unhelpful and even hurtful to those folks clinging on to their job hopes.

As for my CRM, irrelevant to the thread, just personal remarks made to express the writers' annoyance. No big deal, and as I say, irrelevant.

FlyingStone
14th Jan 2020, 09:27
Actually Flybe in theory should be going nuts, paying the same amount of "environment" Tax as Ryanair BA and Easy, yet in a far far more eco friendly aircraft... that seems fair too

Q400 has better fuel economy per passenger than A320/B737?

Livesinafield
14th Jan 2020, 09:32
Q400 has better fuel economy per passenger than A320/B737?

For sure, especially on a 45 min sector

Pumal1w
14th Jan 2020, 09:35
Politeness aside, I earnestly hope Flybe survive. The APD solution may be the way forward, which would save the government's face and enable 2000 aviation jobs to continue, as well as improving the lot of UK airlines. Having 3 times lost a flying job due to inept management and government intransigence, I am well aware of the misery that sudden unemployment brings.

Unpleasant comments along the lines of " they deserve to go bust", and "it takes 9 hours to fly from Bristol to Newquay and is very expensive compared to the bus" are unhelpful and even hurtful to those folks clinging on to their job hopes.

As for my CRM, irrelevant to the thread, just personal remarks made to express the writers' annoyance. No big deal, and as I say, irrelevant.

I agree, irrelevant to the thread.

However, my comments, and those of other posters too I understand, were referring only to your general tone, not to the fortunes of Flybe.

Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP
14th Jan 2020, 09:37
Actually Flybe in theory should be going nuts, paying the same amount of "environment" Tax as Ryanair BA and Easy, yet in a far far more eco friendly aircraft... that seems fair too

If we are going to get pedantic then letís be clear about this argument. FlyBe do not pay the APD. They collect it from the customer and pass it on to HMRC. It is not their money.

anothertyke
14th Jan 2020, 09:43
Let them take over FlyBe's routes then - ALL of them - and see if they can provide the same excellent service.

Surely there are flybe routes in different categories :

Man/Bhx to Paris for example, essentially contract flying. No Govt will want special measures for those, if they go, it is up to AF and the market what happens. Whose slots are they at CDG?

Much of the domestic network where cases of varying strength could be made for PSO, with of course no guarantee who would win the bids.

BHD--- this could be tricky. What value is placed on not having to trek out to BFS? Clearly some routes like Leeds Bradford might be PSO, but what to do with London would pose competition policy issues and airport as well as airline issues.

Nil by mouth
14th Jan 2020, 10:02
Again as a non UK resident, reading about the billions spent and wasted on the yet unfinished HS2 project to connect cities, just one of those billions would help airlines such as Flybe?
Imagine some of that government money invested in a regional airline to connect all major cities and not just London to Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds?
As usual in any business failure it's always the CEOs and senior management that walk away with huge sums of money and bonuses. If Flybe has been asset stripped then it is a disgrace.

Ben_S
14th Jan 2020, 10:09
If the government do some sort of deal that helps FlyBe out of their current mess then there will be calls from all the other competitors for the same treatment.

Solving one problem will only create many others. OíLeary will go nuts as will BA, EasyJet and anyone else that offers domestic flights. And rightly so.

To comply with European law, the deferred payments would apply to all airlines, not just FlyBe.

Not sure it solves anything though, just postpones the pain for a few years when the payments become due.

RoyHudd
14th Jan 2020, 10:12
If we are going to get pedantic then letís be clear about this argument. FlyBe do not pay the APD. They collect it from the customer and pass it on to HMRC. It is not their money.

Correct. Ultimately the customer pays. Or perhaps chooses not to buy a ticket due to its total price. FlyBe would certainly benefit on the domestic front with a cessation of APD. UK international carriers, including FlyBe would also become more competitive with their fare offerings on flights from the UK.

The industry has been lobbying for many years on this issue. Hopefully this unpleasant situation will end up with a positive outcome in all UK airlines' favour, and ultimately their customers, whether they are flying from or in transit through the UK.

Come on, Boris. Help the UK airlines. (Nationalisation of them would help no-one IMHO)

ORAC
14th Jan 2020, 10:14
Labour and other parties coming out against reducing/removing APD pointing out most of benefit will go to other airlines who don’t need and environmental case more important. Their line seems to be that vital routes should be subsidised - who ever flies them - and Flybe should be allowed to go to the wall if necessary with other airlines replacing them on those routes

CEJM
14th Jan 2020, 10:15
Apart from being a firm believer that the government should not be getting involved in private Ltd companies, I also don’t see a reason why the government should help.

The Connect Airways is formed by some very wealthy companies. If they were so sure that the turnaround plan would work and the future would be rosy, why do they not loan the £100+ million to Connect Airways?

Before anybody has a pot shot at me. I do feel for the staff and only know to well what they are going through at the moment. I lost my job when Monarch went under and no I am not bitter because the government didn’t bail Monarch out. As I said before, a government should not get involved in PLC’s and therefore did the right thing not to help Monarch out.

Effluent Man
14th Jan 2020, 10:30
It's a Tory government and following their longstanding economic theories of capitalism red in tooth and claw it is hard to justify subsidies. The vast majority of journeys between London and Newquay will be holiday home owners who can easily afford the fare. Where I live bus services in country areas have been cut back hugely for economic reasons. Why not subsidise them too?

Sleepybhudda
14th Jan 2020, 10:30
The government may not realise that we're running out of scheduled airlines. They don't survive. The last new one that wasn't a foreign operator with a UK AOC was BA Cityflyer (2007) and that was setup with aid from BA. Before that the last original independent was BlueIslands in the Channel Islands. All the later ones since have failed. That might indicate just how hard it is to make a profit in the airline world. The government should probably not bail out PLCs but they shouldn't put unreasonable tax and compensations rules and then hold their hands back when the Airline cant cope.

As I understood the investment in Flybe (to be Connect) was dependent on the outcome of Brexit. Because we as a country screwed that up they I'm guessing the investors wouldn't commit without a clear financial roadmap and so now Flybe is suffering.

windypops
14th Jan 2020, 10:47
I wonder how this will impact Blue Islands and the routes they operate for Flybe? Could they operate them as BI tomorrow for example?

I believe so. They operate under their own AOC and flight numbers and are a completely separate company that operate as a franchise. When Flybe were in trouble last time BI put out a statement saying their booking website was effectively in hibernation mode and they could make it live should Flybe no longer take bookings.

runawayedge
14th Jan 2020, 10:55
Aside from the pros and cons, and if indeed the UK government agree to a deferral of the overdue APD surely Connect Airways shareholders must be asked to indemnify whatever deferral amount is agreed.

Wycombe
14th Jan 2020, 10:56
Labour and other parties coming out against reducing/removing APD pointing out most of benefit will go to other airlines who don’t need and environmental case more important. Their line seems to be that vital routes should be subsidised - who ever flies them - and Flybe should be allowed to go to the wall if necessary with other airlines replacing them on those routes

To be fair, I suspect that the Labour MP for Exeter, Ben Bradshaw, has a different view. Hope I don't need to explain why.

The vast majority of journeys between London and Newquay will be holiday home owners who can easily afford the fare.

I call nonsense on that comment. The voxpops from Cornwall suggest very differently.

bean
14th Jan 2020, 10:59
BI don"t have enough money or aircraft to take over the Ci routes

RoyHudd
14th Jan 2020, 11:12
BALPA have campaigned for years on abolition or reduction of APD. I now read many comments which do not mirror this stance. I therefore presume that either there are few real professional pilots on these forums or the BALPA folk, who should be in the majority, are strangely muted. I suspect the former.

(As one who has regularly been lambasted by non-pilots and PPL's for myself being unqualified to contribute, I realise this website really does not conform to its title. So be it. I still enjoy it sometimes)

DaveReidUK
14th Jan 2020, 11:24
Q400 has better fuel economy per passenger than A320/B737?

Assuming that you mean fuel burn per seat, rather than per passenger (since Flybe are unlikely to be able to fill an A320/737), then there's probably not much difference.

CEJM
14th Jan 2020, 11:26
RoyHudd, as a long standing BALPA member I support their fight to reduce or abolish ADP. However that will not improve the financial health of Flybe.

Whichever way you look at it, ADP is a tax which is paid by the pax to the government via the airline. It is not something the airline pays to the government out of its own coffers. Even if payment of outstanding ADP is delayed until 2023 it doesn’t change the underlying cause that the current Flybe model doesn’t work.

As said before, if the Connect Airways shareholders are convinced that their turnaround plan will be successful, why don’t they stump up the cash now? It is not that the three partners can’t afford £100 million between them.

Cheltman
14th Jan 2020, 11:39
Is there a concern that discussing ADP removal will ignite the debate on fuel tax? Where the competition is trains, busses and cars where tax is paid (to various amounts). I assume that paying duty on aviation fuel for domestic flights would not help flybe?
Surely the bottom line is that the ticket revenue is below that needed to operate the airline. If the service is so essential then surely a £20 ticket increase (half the ADP) would be acceptable. I do hope a solution is found by the way to keep the operation going.

Jonty
14th Jan 2020, 11:57
There is a debate to be had around whether the Government should subsidise what it considers an essential link. Much like the Scottish Government does for the highlands and islands.

homonculus
14th Jan 2020, 12:07
Can anyone clear up what is being discussed? Is it

1 deferral of duty already paid by the taxpayer so that the operator keeps the tax paid and doesnt hand it over, or

2 amending duty going forward so it isnt collected ?

The latter would seem to be helpful as total fare prices would fall dramatically, although with high loadings that may not save them beyond any immediate cashflow crisis. The former, which was what the BBC was suggesting last night, would seem to be diverting my taxes with no guarantee to prevent more money going to management or shareholders....That was not the basis on which I paid.

Wing Commander Fowler
14th Jan 2020, 12:18
Quote - "Whichever way you look at it, ADP is a tax which is paid by the pax to the government via the airline. It is not something the airline pays to the government out of its own coffers. Even if payment of outstanding ADP is delayed until 2023 it doesn’t change the underlying cause that the current Flybe model doesn’t work."

This seems to miss out an important fact that homunculus has picked up on - without this tax the total fare reduces and the ticket becomes more attractive. That's where the clear benefit lay.

CEJM
14th Jan 2020, 12:21
Homonculus, as far as I can make out it will be both. Happy to be corrected though.

Even if APD is reduced/abolished then I am not sure ticket prices will come down. Flybe is unable to make a profit at current ticket prices so in my opinion any reduction in APD will not (or very little) be reflected in ticket prices. Instead the extra money will be used to shore up the company finances.

Sorry WCF, I disagree. If they can’t turn a profit now then taking the tax element off the ticket will not make the company anymore profitable. Even if that ticket is more attractive, the total below the line stays the same.

Tinwald
14th Jan 2020, 12:23
I will never say good riddance as I feel for the crews and staff involved but letís not kid ourselves it is a good airline.

I recently got charged £35 for my cabin bag as it was too big to fit in the stupid abnormally small gauges. To add insult to injury, I quite literally walked it to the baggage handlers myself at the side of the dash 8. 35 quid for 6 kg bag on a 30 minute flight? Unbelievable.

60% of the passengers had the same problem as I did and probably (like myself) said Iím not flying with this tin pot organisation again.

Quite right fella. If they had only paid more attention about punctuality rather than getting into a frenzy that a cabin bag was an inch too wide they might have been doing better. It's called 'priorities'.

aox
14th Jan 2020, 12:32
The government may not realise that we're running out of scheduled airlines. They don't survive. The last new one that wasn't a foreign operator with a UK AOC was BA Cityflyer (2007) and that was setup with aid from BA. Before that the last original independent was BlueIslands in the Channel Islands. All the later ones since have failed. That might indicate just how hard it is to make a profit in the airline world. The government should probably not bail out PLCs but they shouldn't put unreasonable tax and compensations rules and then hold their hands back when the Airline cant cope.


The government should be used to some juggling of clashing principles, with its experience in the rail industry.

Wing Commander Fowler
14th Jan 2020, 14:39
Homonculus, as far as I can make out it will be both. Happy to be corrected though.

Even if APD is reduced/abolished then I am not sure ticket prices will come down. Flybe is unable to make a profit at current ticket prices so in my opinion any reduction in APD will not (or very little) be reflected in ticket prices. Instead the extra money will be used to shore up the company finances.

Sorry WCF, I disagree. If they canít turn a profit now then taking the tax element off the ticket will not make the company anymore profitable. Even if that ticket is more attractive, the total below the line stays the same.

We will have to agree to disagree then but my belief is that change one thing and the whole dynamic changes. After all profit is linked to sales! In order to be more profitable (or to recover from loss making) you need to be more efficient and sell more. It's quite simple really.

cats_five
14th Jan 2020, 14:58
We will have to agree to disagree then but my belief is that change one thing and the whole dynamic changes. After all profit is linked to sales! In order to be more profitable (or to recover from loss making) you need to be more efficient and sell more. It's quite simple really.

Sell more and/or charge more and/or reduce costs.

CEJM
14th Jan 2020, 15:02
WCF, we will agree to disagree.

Profit may be linked to sales but if your sales are below cost price then you can sell all you want and it still won’t make a profit. It is pretty clear that the current ticket price is not providing a profit for the company.

blind pew
14th Jan 2020, 15:25
Actually prefer them to Ryaniar with whom I generally fly. The two I avoid are the Orange one and big airlines.
City Jet - aerlingus - also good.
Good luck to them.

ATSA1
14th Jan 2020, 15:29
..and there lies the problem...

Low cost airlines have radically changed the travelling public's idea of what a "proper" air fare should be.

If fares had risen in line with inflation since, say, 1985, fares would generally be around 30-40% higher than they are now. but Joe Public expects to get to the Costas or even Paris or Amsterdam for under £100 rtn.

Too many airlines chasing too few passengers prepared to pay the going rate, and so they are all in a race to the bottom, and sooner or later, they will all perish...

Flybe is just another airline going down that route....

its not nice writing this, but its the uncomfortable truth...

Max Tow
14th Jan 2020, 16:01
One hopes that that the government is not rewarding Flybe's years of mismanagement without giving the same benefit to other better run domestic carriers who are also doing it tough? Or that they will agree deferment of 100m of APD debt (what chance of the public ever getting that back..) without a guarantee from owners Virgin etc?

ALTSEL
14th Jan 2020, 16:44
Did Connect Airways(virgin) not buy Flybe last year expecting it to fail and therefore gain the FLYBE LHR slots it so craves????

Deltasierra010
14th Jan 2020, 16:47
Reducing or abolishing taxation is not going to help Flybe because it will apply to all airlines, thereby retaining the level playing field. If supply of seats exceeds demand the only way to stay in business is to reduce supply, someone has to drop out.

Livesinafield
14th Jan 2020, 16:51
Flybe have very few competitors on their routes, they are rarely in competition with other airlines, The issues at Flybe are not related to competition or filling seats, They have ridiculous legacy debts from years of shocking management and poor decisions from CEO after CEO.

The majority of their business is from large companies in the UK not your average pax en route for a weekend away in Edinburgh.

Jamie2009
14th Jan 2020, 16:57
You're assuming Flybe and others pass on the reduction in APD to the customer.
Flybe ARE selling seats and don't have competition on most routes... why cut the price, a competitors big jet on most of our routes wouldn't work?
It's legacy overheads that are killing Flybe get rid of those once and for all and move on.....

Anyway I don't know how to run an airline just fly a plane so my opinion is pretty worthless in business matters.

EastMids
14th Jan 2020, 16:58
According to https://www.statista.com/statistics/1009308/flybe-plc-profit-before-tax/ Flybe made a pre tax profit in only three of the last ten years (amounting to £35.4m) while pretax losses in the other seven years totalled £179.4m. Is there any business turn around that would enable it to repay £100m in back APD over the next three years, other than via significant ongoing support from its new owners?

Auxtank
14th Jan 2020, 17:51
Good news.
Fares will go up a bit.
Pax Tax Duty down.
Let's hope this government has realised that Aviation shouldn't be made the whipping boy for the climate change view.

surely not
14th Jan 2020, 17:56
Very pleased to read that FlyBe lives to fight another day.
From the BBC News it seems that Virgin Atlantic and Stobart Group have agreed to pump additional finance in to the airline, whilst the Governement has only agreed to a review of the APD. Now to my cynical mind that means that there is no guarantee that the APD will be removed or reduced, though I suppose the words at the meeting from the Govt side must have offered some thing positive to entice Virgin and Stobart to put more money in. Will Boris and his gang deliver? Time will tell.

Livesinafield
14th Jan 2020, 18:04
Glad to hear Flybe lives to fight another day, great news and such a relief for their staff and customers

Jonty
14th Jan 2020, 18:23
While Iím delighted for the staff at Flybe, one wonders why such a deal couldnít have been done for Thomas Cook or Monarch? The business secretary even refused to meet with the board of Thomas Cook.

RexBanner
14th Jan 2020, 18:27
While Iím delighted for the staff at Flybe, one wonders why such a deal couldnít have been done for Thomas Cook or Monarch? The business secretary even refused to meet with the board of Thomas Cook.

Because there were multiple alternatives to Thomas Cook and Monarch for passengers. There quite simply arenít alternatives to Flybe for many of the regions.

BEagle
14th Jan 2020, 18:51
No doubt the decision will upset the envirofundamentalists and that irritating Scandewegian Thunderbug child, but it is most definitely the correct, pragmatic solution.

axefurabz
14th Jan 2020, 18:58
Anyway I don't know how to run an airline just fly a plane so my opinion is pretty worthless in business matters.

Possibly the best contribution to this thread so far?

If I don't pass VAT I collect from my customers to HMRC pdq, words like "fraud" and "jail" get used. What's so different about APD?

Livesinafield
14th Jan 2020, 19:18
No offense Axefur but I would imagine the government and HMRC don't see you personally as valuable as they saw flybe, However you make a valid point sir

Jonty
14th Jan 2020, 20:25
Because there were multiple alternatives to Thomas Cook and Monarch for passengers. There quite simply arenít alternatives to Flybe for many of the regions.

so Flybe will never be allowed to go under? No matter how much money they lose?

SLF3
14th Jan 2020, 20:47
if Flybe could find a way to run a jet LHR - ABZ and got their pricing right vis a vis BA......

Trying to compete with a bus (gate closes 20 minutes earlier) a turboprop (add 30 minutes) and tiny overhead bins (wait for your carry on at the other end, another 20 minutes) is not going to get the average oil man on your side.

But most of us would love a viable alternative to the worlds favourite airline.

RoyHudd
14th Jan 2020, 21:10
Good good news. The government have done a good thing.

Schoenheit
14th Jan 2020, 22:50
Good good news. The government have done a good thing.

Have you not realised that they are putting up APD for everyone else to finance this or at least that is what I'm reading between the lines on the news reports online tonight.
The government have not done a good thing.

It appears that if the Credit Card Companies shook off the Jedi mind trick from the Consortium that the company was liquid and funded.
I'm still of the opinion that the Consortium put up or brought no money worth speaking about with them and were just working with FlyBE's own working capital for the last 11 months.

We'll never know for certain.

MCDU2
15th Jan 2020, 01:52
if Flybe could find a way to run a jet LHR - ABZ and got their pricing right vis a vis BA......

Trying to compete with a bus (gate closes 20 minutes earlier) a turboprop (add 30 minutes) and tiny overhead bins (wait for your carry on at the other end, another 20 minutes) is not going to get the average oil man on your side.

But most of us would love a viable alternative to the worlds favourite airline.

Little Red did that (Virgin branding operated by EI). Load factors would suggest that you didn't have to many like minded individuals.

SLF3
15th Jan 2020, 03:13
Little Red had big planes and very poor timings for business travellers. Made no effort to differentiate.

And they competed with Easy for non business travellers prepared to accept crap timings. Easy have gone.

flybe has Embraers and good timings currently: as I understand it they cannot find a way to use the slots effectively with jets.

KeyPilot
15th Jan 2020, 03:34
I'l reserve judgement until more details of the deal emerge.

My instinct is that the gov't should let them go bust & then take a role in re-creating the socially important bits (basically UK regional domestic). FlyBE have been their own worst enemy to a degree - their online reviews are shocking.

For sure, APD should be scrapped for UK domestic flights. It is absurd that rail is subsidised whilst air is taxed. The pitiful history of the UK domestic air operator sector shows that it needs government help, not a £26 per return pax millstone around its neck!

KeyPilot
15th Jan 2020, 03:35
Forgot to add, this won't be the end of the FlyBE saga. We will be back here in max 3 years' time, likely sooner...

aox
15th Jan 2020, 03:42
No doubt the decision will upset the envirofundamentalists and that irritating Scandewegian Thunderbug child, but it is most definitely the correct, pragmatic solution.

According to one rant on the news, it seems airliners have suddenly taken over from diesel cars as causing the worst pollution.

CO2 emissions from the Q400 are better per passenger km than a car with only one person in, and only marginally more than diesel trains, and it's usually a shorter distance, but facts seem to be somewhat lacking in some of these arguments.

cats_five
15th Jan 2020, 03:56
Forgot to add, this won't be the end of the FlyBE saga. We will be back here in max 3 years' time, likely sooner...

Yes. This is just kicking the can down the road.

Jumbo2
15th Jan 2020, 04:00
According to one rant on the news, it seems airliners have suddenly taken over from diesel cars as causing the worst pollution.

CO2 emissions from the Q400 are better per passenger km than a car with only one person in, and only marginally more than diesel trains, and it's usually a shorter distance, but facts seem to be somewhat lacking in some of these arguments.

Diesel cars are better per passenger km then Q400 with only one passenger in. What a comparison in the quote above...

covec
15th Jan 2020, 06:17
I wish flybe the very best.

Back in the 90s it was a nightmare getting home to Belfast from Inverness: either Logan from Glasgow or BA from LHR. And both expensive. Christmas was a very special nightmare 🤣 Remember the cops pulling me over on the A9 to tell me that they would probably be shutting the snow gates...stupidly perhaps, with family onboard I pushed on to Glasgow. RAF aircrew & CSRO: invincible 🤣👌 (OK. Stupid).

Now flybe go direct INS BFS. Grand!

Blackfriar
15th Jan 2020, 07:26
..and there lies the problem...

Low cost airlines have radically changed the travelling public's idea of what a "proper" air fare should be.

If fares had risen in line with inflation since, say, 1985, fares would generally be around 30-40% higher than they are now. but Joe Public expects to get to the Costas or even Paris or Amsterdam for under £100 rtn.

Too many airlines chasing too few passengers prepared to pay the going rate, and so they are all in a race to the bottom, and sooner or later, they will all perish...

Flybe is just another airline going down that route....

its not nice writing this, but its the uncomfortable truth...
And yet easyjet and Ryanair are profitable and expanding with the correct business model.

Plankwing
15th Jan 2020, 07:32
As an aside, if APD is all about the environment, then surely domestic flights, where the car and train are an option, are the very ones it should apply to? On the other hand, if it’s just a money grab, like insurance taxes and stamp duty, then maybe politicians should be more honest about the motives behind some of the taxes that are legitimised by the green lobby, but do nothing to change behaviour.

Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP
15th Jan 2020, 07:46
Can anyone point to anything that has ever been done with the revenue generated by APD to protect the environment?

At the very best, the only environmental impact is that it may possibly stop a few people from flying. But you can bet those aircraft flew anyway.

cats_five
15th Jan 2020, 08:16
In how many of it's routes do Flybe face competition?

They are the only carrier on EDI-BHX, they should be able to make money there as even with check-in etc. it's slightly quicker than the train and than driving, and it's a long and tedious drive. It's also easier for many people to get to EDI than Edinburgh or Haymarket stations for the first flight especially at a weekend.

Livesinafield
15th Jan 2020, 08:18
Its far more efficient to transport 70 people on a Q400 45 min sector than to have 70 people drive it, Like most things Tax's including APD is just that tax, a revenue generator for the treasury, serves no other purpose, when you look at it its pretty outrageous Flybe and other airlines are having to find that sort of money when aviation is challenging enough.

I'm all for protecting the environment and climate when we can, but this country is going nuts, if we continue with this path we are going to disadvantage ourselves from everyone else around the world, we will destroy our own infrastructure and economy.

They are the only carrier on EDI-BHX

BHX is one of Flybe's most profitable base's load factors there are very high and they face little to no competition

c52
15th Jan 2020, 08:37
APD can be seen as a substitute for tax on aviation fuel. Or VAT.

Jumbo2
15th Jan 2020, 08:48
APD can be seen as a substitute for tax on aviation fuel. Or VAT.

If the service they operate is so vital surely they could charge more. If people are not willing to pay the extra to make a route viable one has to wonder how vital a route is.

Iím afraid Iím more subscribing to Mr Walsh his view regarding the government help provided to keep FlyBE a going concern.

Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP
15th Jan 2020, 08:50
Its far more efficient to transport 70 people on a Q400 45 min sector than to have 70 people drive it, Like most things Tax's including APD is just that tax, a revenue generator for the treasury, serves no other purpose, when you look at it its pretty outrageous Flybe and other airlines are having to find that sort of money when aviation is challenging enough.

I'm all for protecting the environment and climate when we can, but this country is going nuts, if we continue with this path we are going to disadvantage ourselves from everyone else around the world, we will destroy our own infrastructure and economy.



BHX is one of Flybe's most profitable base's load factors there are very high and they face little to no competition



The fundamental thing here is that FlyBe is not paying the APD. It is a levy which is charged to the customer and then passed on to the treasury. They are merely tax collectors.

It remains to be seen what deal the government has done with them. But they will still want their money one way or the other. The competition will want answers as well.

Capt Scribble
15th Jan 2020, 08:59
If the gov let Flybe go, they never get the APD they are owed. If they allow ‘easy terms’, then 2000 people keep their jobs (and dont need supporting) and the tax may be paid, one day.

Max Tow
15th Jan 2020, 09:03
Don't loans (if it looks like a loan and acts like a loan...) have to be approved by the EU?

I'm sure other UK carriers would also love 100m free of interest & guarantees to tide them over the winter!

covec
15th Jan 2020, 09:05
Its far more efficient to transport 70 people on a Q400 45 min sector than to have 70 people drive it, Like most things Tax's including APD is just that tax, a revenue generator for the treasury, serves no other purpose, when you look at it its pretty outrageous Flybe and other airlines are having to find that sort of money when aviation is challenging enough.

I'm all for protecting the environment and climate when we can, but this country is going nuts, if we continue with this path we are going to disadvantage ourselves from everyone else around the world, we will destroy our own infrastructure and economy.



BHX is one of Flybe's most profitable base's load factors there are very high and they face little to no competition

Indeed. Be absolutely devastating for us Norn Iron SLF living closer to City than International.

Schoenheit
15th Jan 2020, 09:05
If the gov let Flybe go, they never get the APD they are owed. If they allow Ďeasy termsí, then 2000 people keep their jobs (and dont need supporting) and the tax may be paid, one day.
This is from the same playbook as Anglo Irish Bank who got the Irish Government to give them a credit lifeline ... they lied and made themselves appear to be "too big to fail".
The Consortium are playing a blinder here. They appear to have put in practically no money, not forwarding taxes and getting somebody else to pay to keep the propellors spinning.

Maninthebar
15th Jan 2020, 09:14
If the gov let Flybe go, they never get the APD they are owed. If they allow Ďeasy termsí, then 2000 people keep their jobs (and dont need supporting) and the tax may be paid, one day.

If FlyBe DID go bankrupt HMRC would be a preferential creditor and be high up the queue for payout from resources on liquidation. I don't think the outstanding APD payment would be a significant hit to the Treasury. I don't even think it would be as great as the extra payments that would be made to workers who would be laid off either in the primary business or any dependant industry from the public purse as a result of business failure.

And none of the above has saved businesses of a similar scale in this, or other industries for a number of years. The argument from social need is also a hard one to make if one were to have to compare it to rural bus services, say, or with the funding for home to school transport.

I rather think that Govt is looking for a transitional arrangement with a solution that will enable it to claim that there has been no cost to the taxpayer (along the lines of the hamster wheel of revolving railway franchises).

Uplinker
15th Jan 2020, 09:15
..........I'm all for protecting the environment and climate when we can, but this country is going nuts, if we continue with this path we are going to disadvantage ourselves from everyone else around the world, we will destroy our own infrastructure and economy.


Yes, we have already lost Monarch and Thomas Cook.

Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP
15th Jan 2020, 09:21
If the gov let Flybe go, they never get the APD they are owed. If they allow Ďeasy termsí, then 2000 people keep their jobs (and dont need supporting) and the tax may be paid, one day.

I lost my job as a result of the Thomas Cook failure. At no point did I expect the government to bail us out even though for selfish reasons it would have saved some heartache. The final bill was probably higher for the treasury than the loan required to save it. They probably lost a load of APD as well.

Nobody wants to see any airline fail. But why should one be singled out for special treatment? The competition will rightly protest that they are no longer playing on a level field. I wouldnít be surprised if MOL commenced some sort of legal action.

Maninthebar
15th Jan 2020, 09:27
The final bill was probably higher for the treasury than the loan required to save it.

Dignified post, thank you.

The problem with loans, of course, is that they need to be paid back else they are simply gifts. Govt. APPEARS to be taking the line that the support being put in place is of that form, but public assurance is missing. Also, as their competitors point out this facility is without cost to FlyBe where they would would have to pay to raise cash in the market.

Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP
15th Jan 2020, 09:33
When it’s all said and done, I’m pleased for all the employees of FlyBe. Let’s hope the management can come up with a viable plan to get back into profit.

Perrin
15th Jan 2020, 09:36
Why not fund them to keep 2400 working, better than giving money away to things that do not effect livelihood of families. We are all in this together so why not help the weakest. Yes Mr British Airways
you didn't think of families when you pulled out of Prestwick in 1982!
Peter

Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP
15th Jan 2020, 09:39
Why not fund them to keep 2400 working, better than giving money away to things that do not effect livelihood of families. We are all in this together so why not help the weakest. Yes Mr British Airways
you didn't think of families when you pulled out of Prestwick in 1982!
Peter

Are you looking for a Soviet style economy?

Perrin
15th Jan 2020, 09:46
No I am not but we are only here once, so once in awhile help the weakest.

Capt Scribble
15th Jan 2020, 09:56
The Rt Hon, likewise. TCX was after £200m cash cover and ended up costing vastly more than that. However, I do not believe it was in a healthy state and think that extra money would have just kicked the can down the road. Deferring or forgoing the APD from Flybe will save the Statutory redundancy/PILON etc and possibly Allow them to restructure, and not actually ‘cost’ anything. But they have been in trouble for sometime and Something needs to change radically.

SMT Member
15th Jan 2020, 09:58
What I don't understand is how, accounting wise, FlyBe has presumably used the APD funds for purposes other than intended.

To my simple mind, the APD should have been parked on an escrow-type account, from which the funds would be transferred to the authorities at prescribed intervals. It seems, and do correct me if I'm wrong, that FlyBe has used the APD to help fund daily operations, and when time came to hand it over to the government, the coffers were empty. If that is indeed the case, the management team should be fired on the spot, prosecuted to the extent the law allows, and have their accounting handed over to an independent 3rd party, ensuring that APD funds were not used for any other purpose than intended.

Instead they're seemingly been given an reprieve on the payment, management have not been asked to step down as a prerequisite, and no legal action has been taken, nor does there seem to be any demands to restructure the company with an aim of making it a financially viable proposition.

Privatised profit, socialised deficit springs to mind.

DaveReidUK
15th Jan 2020, 10:01
To my simple mind, the APD should have been parked on an escrow-type account, from which the funds would be transferred to the authorities at prescribed intervals.

AFAIK, there is no legal requirement to do that.

mondayrunner
15th Jan 2020, 10:49
Still can't get my head around why the government got involved here and not with Thomas Cook or Monarch. Surely it just amounts to bailing out the (very wealthy) owners?

On most of the (island) routes there are alternatives to Flybe and when you factor in getting to and from airports, plus the extensive check in times, the train is almost as quick between say London and Cornwall - plus if you're on business you can actually get work done.

anothertyke
15th Jan 2020, 11:04
The Rt Hon, likewise. TCX was after £200m cash cover and ended up costing vastly more than that. However, I do not believe it was in a healthy state and think that extra money would have just kicked the can down the road. Deferring or forgoing the APD from Flybe will save the Statutory redundancy/PILON etc and possibly Allow them to restructure, and not actually Ďcostí anything. But they have been in trouble for sometime and Something needs to change radically.

Yes. Maybe a respectable argument is that it is worth having a breathing space to work out how Government also needs to change policy. For example

If APD is in part a carbon tax then how does the tax structure-- long haul, short haul, domestic-- map on to the carbon costs? What needs to change both now and in the future assuming costs per tonne of carbon are set to rise substantially?

What is the value of enhanced regional connectivity both across water and long distance (Bristol-Aberdeen etc)? Where does the boundary lie between PSO and fully commercial?

If this connectivity review is an opportunity to rethink the place of inter-regional routes, then a bit of time to do that is justified. Otherwise the big risk is that we are all back here in the same place in a year's time but with bigger numbers. It's difficult to imagine market conditions strengthening in the coming year. It's not just about flybe, it's about what government wants and what the evidence is on how significant regional routes really are in the total picture.

dead_pan
15th Jan 2020, 11:09
I wouldnít be surprised if MOL commenced some sort of legal action.

IAG have beaten him to it (via the EU - cue another good frothing from the Daily Mail mob).

Any chance they could restore our local bus service too while they're at it? I mean, what's good for Cornwall etc must be good for rural Oxfordshire.

dead_pan
15th Jan 2020, 11:16
it's about what government wants and what the evidence is on how significant regional routes really are in the total picture.

I'm guessing at least another 5 years in office and a semblance of keeping to their manifesto pledges.

If FlyBe is, as reported, losing money hand over fist on these routes, then there can't really be any economic justification for keeping them going (the routes that is).

Eutychus
15th Jan 2020, 11:29
What I don't understand is how, accounting wise, FlyBe has presumably used the APD funds for purposes other than intended.

To my simple mind, the APD should have been parked on an escrow-type account, from which the funds would be transferred to the authorities at prescribed intervals.

I'm no sort of expert on airline financial flows, but I found out a long time ago that funds paid to any sort of central organisation that one assumes are earmarked for particular expenditure get used to provide day-to-day liquidity if the designated expenditure isn't immediate.

OntimeexceptACARS
15th Jan 2020, 11:42
Anyone else thinking that Willie Walsh should but out? IF the government modify APD for all domestics, then BA will be one of the biggest gainers. Its not like Big Airways' predecessors were never subsidised, when they were bailed out for decades by UK plc, as BEA and BOAC. And their bad decisions resulted in not just job losses, but the loss of the UK aviation industry. They rejected a larger, more marketable Trident, a more economical VC10, they even demanded BAC1-11-500s which were different to all others, FFS. And it goes on - Boeing 767s with RR engines that almost no one else was interested in, and I read recently that their A350 fleet have smaller galleys than just about every other produced so far by Airbus.

Whilst I understand that it's not the same as TCX or MON, I too think the government have done a good thing. If you live within 50 miles of London or Manchester, you have lots of travel choices. Most other places don't. London, and London Airways, don't need to get richer with the demise of an airline that really doesn't compete with them.

I'm sure there will be lots of caveats, including looking at lease terms, management decisions, etc, although with any UK government, that might be wishful thinking. Part of me is thinking along the lines of KeyPilot, and wondering if we'll be back here within three years.....

OTEA

Yeehaw22
15th Jan 2020, 12:02
Anyone else thinking that Willie Walsh should but out? IF the government modify APD for all domestics, then BA will be one of the biggest gainers. Its not like Big Airways' predecessors were never subsidised, when they were bailed out for decades by UK plc, as BEA and BOAC. And their bad decisions resulted in not just job losses, but the loss of the UK aviation industry. They rejected a larger, more marketable Trident, a more economical VC10, they even demanded BAC1-11-500s which were different to all others, FFS. And it goes on - Boeing 767s with RR engines that almost no one else was interested in, and I read recently that their A350 fleet have smaller galleys than just about every other produced so far by Airbus.

Whilst I understand that it's not the same as TCX or MON, I too think the government have done a good thing. If you live within 50 miles of London or Manchester, you have lots of travel choices. Most other places don't. London, and London Airways, don't need to get richer with the demise of an airline that really doesn't compete with them.

I'm sure there will be lots of caveats, including looking at lease terms, management decisions, etc, although with any UK government, that might be wishful thinking. Part of me is thinking along the lines of KeyPilot, and wondering if we'll be back here within three years.....

OTEA

I think as a boss of a rival airline hes well within his rights to ask questions. The government have repeatedly said it's not their place to bail out ailing businesses yet here they are. APD wont be dropped as the tree huggers would be outraged, and probably descend on the capital in their thousands kicking off. This is going to set a precedent for all sorts of businesses to plead poverty and ask for tax breaks or deferrals as and when it suits the books. The only people bailing out flybe should have been its wealthy consortium owners. But they didnt, why? The reason's obvious.

As for a350 galleys, not relevant but BA keep their planes long enough that no one else wants them afterwards anyway.

Wycombe
15th Jan 2020, 12:16
Anyone else thinking that Willie Walsh should but out?

Absolutely he should. IAG have called out "an inappropriate use of public money" when it seems unlikely that they know what has actually been agreed between Flybe's owners and HMG.

It's almost like he can't bear the thought that an airline linked with Virgin has had some help.

A number of his airlines will stand to benefit if a change to APD policy does come about.

Having said all of the above, I am still of the view that Flybe's own past senior management are largely responsible for the mess that has resulted. It just reeks of buryheadinsand'itis

I am also of the view that the jobs and the services that Flybe provide were worthy of the assistance (whatever it really is) that has now been forthcoming.

qwertyuiop
15th Jan 2020, 12:22
As an ex Monarch employee I feel somewhat upset that they didn’t get the same help as Flybe however I feel it is the correct decision.

aox
15th Jan 2020, 13:08
Diesel cars are better per passenger km then Q400 with only one passenger in. What a comparison in the quote above...

True, but my comparison is more realistic than that possibly jokey inversion.

However this airline has been run, it can't have been bad enough to stubbornly continue with routes regularly attracting a single passenger.

i did notice a Southampton to London City around Christmas a year ago, but I assume that was mainly positioning for the next day, rather than trying to attract imaginary commuters frustrated by no trains over the holiday.

BigBlue1
15th Jan 2020, 13:18
I think it's clear to anyone reading this thread that if Flibea want to survive as a business then major change is going to be needed. In my opinion, they are going to have to take on their rivals in rail and bus head on. No other way about it. From one look at their website I can see the major flaw with their business plan straight away. Why are they running flights from Aberdeen to NewQuay? Or Aberdeen to the East Midlands? How many people actually commute to work between these locations? Exactly, not many. If they want to make money. Serious money. Then they are going to have to take on the big boys in the golden commuter routes. If they want to make something of themselves then they should be taking on Citylinc and Scottrail on the Glasgow to Edinburgh route! Think about it for a minute. The bus is cheap as chips but the roads are choc-a-bloc. The rail is fast but it costs like £26 a day and you don't even get a seat. IF they were to do a return fare between Glasgow and Edinburgh for say the same price as the train I bet you that they would fill their planes with 100% capacity. People would rush to buy tickets between the two cities because they could be guaranteed a seat unlike the train. People might even be happy to pay the £26 knowing that they will get just that, a seat. Over-time they could chip away at Scottrails customer base and to meet growing demand expand their fleet so that they could offer a flight every 10 minutes in both directions during peak hours of 6.30am and 9am and the commute home between 4.30pm and 7pm. There would be no flights between these rush hour times as it wouldn't be profitable and so between 9am and 4.30pm they could perform their other routes for those looking to go on holiday to longer distance places. This profitable model could then be replicated all over the UK between nearby cities where bus and rail services are letting customers down.

CEJM
15th Jan 2020, 13:22
As an ex Monarch employee I feel somewhat upset that they didnít get the same help as Flybe however I feel it is the correct decision.

As an ex Monarch employee myself, I disagree with you. First and foremost I would hate to see Flybe go bust as I use them regularly and my experience of them has always been good.

I smell a rat in all this. As it stands now the government has deferred some (or all) of their APD arrears, with a stipulation that the owners invest money into the company. Flybe (Connect Airways) is owned by 3 big companies who are quite successful and are not short of a few quid.

Obviously they have shown to the government that their turnaround plan will provide the required result. If they are certain that their plan works why go cap in hand to the government and why not loan the business your own money. By making it such a public show they have done a lot of damage to the brand. Unfortunately I have a gut feeling that before long we will be back at square one.

BEagle
15th Jan 2020, 14:07
Anyone else thinking that Willie Walsh should butt out?

Definitely! Typical ba attitude reminiscent of the Dirty Tricks era. Whining Willie does not offer competition on most of Flybe's routes; I suspect his motives are to try and get ba's grubby hands on Flybe's Heathrow slots.

He should note that El Jefe's dumbing down of ba now means that it is seen as 'like flying Ryanair but without the charm'.

runawayedge
15th Jan 2020, 14:11
CEJM, could not agree more. If the shareholders are convinced the plan will work have they been asked to indemnify the taxpayer in the event Flybe or Virgin Connect cannot repay when due. Also wondered where Stobart Air sits in all of this. Have they required cash since the change of ownership, will they require cash. If so is this facility with the UK taxpayer also providing funding?

Modular Halil
15th Jan 2020, 16:02
Widely reported this morning Flybe on the brink of collapse.
Virgin & Stobart purchased all the Airlines assets exactly 12 months ago and now they are sending the Airline down the river. White collar criminals.
Virgin just wanted flybes slots down in LHR. .😬

ivor toolbox
15th Jan 2020, 17:12
IAG have beaten him to it (via the EU - cue another good frothing from the Daily Mail mob).

Any chance they could restore our local bus service too while they're at it? I mean, what's good for Cornwall etc must be good for rural Oxfordshire.

Willie Walsh / IAG would, as BA still has to make pension deficiency payments that are tied up to when they sold BA Connect to Flybe

Ttfn

Max Tow
15th Jan 2020, 17:17
This is of course the same Flybe which tried to use its big company muscle to destroy Loganair and its long standing business on the Highlands & Islands routes a couple years ago. Fortunately the local communities involved saw through it - the pile of money lost by Flybe on this vindictive venture presumably contributed greatly to the current ills.

aox
15th Jan 2020, 17:26
If I do a search for british airways subsidy, I find articles in the last 2 to 4 years discussing subsidies to BA for operations at Baltimore/Washington and Pittsburgh

A 10 year old article is about £80 million of public subsidy here to British Airways, Ryanair, Loganair and BAA

Is subsidy from public funds really against Mr Walsh's religion?

No, 5 years ago he was talking about asking government subsidy for BA's use of biofuels

biddedout
15th Jan 2020, 17:53
Willie Walsh certainly does need to butt out.
Flybe have the most fuel efficient fleet in the sector and yet due to the recent publicity they currently are under siege from the environmental lobby. The searchlight may well lock on to another target soon.
It is not so long since BA operated three flights a day with an empty four engine jet between Manchester and Heathrow producing thousands of tons of C02 and yet not generating any APD. This was simply to protect their precious slots at fortress Heathrow and contributed nothing other than a pile of pollution.

Small cog
15th Jan 2020, 19:15
ISTR that without Government approval LHR won’t get its planned expansion.

Speedywheels
15th Jan 2020, 19:46
I think it's clear to anyone reading this thread that if Flibea want to survive as a business then major change is going to be needed. In my opinion, they are going to have to take on their rivals in rail and bus head on. No other way about it. From one look at their website I can see the major flaw with their business plan straight away. Why are they running flights from Aberdeen to NewQuay? Or Aberdeen to the East Midlands? How many people actually commute to work between these locations? Exactly, not many. If they want to make money. Serious money. Then they are going to have to take on the big boys in the golden commuter routes. If they want to make something of themselves then they should be taking on Citylinc and Scottrail on the Glasgow to Edinburgh route! Think about it for a minute. The bus is cheap as chips but the roads are choc-a-bloc. The rail is fast but it costs like £26 a day and you don't even get a seat. IF they were to do a return fare between Glasgow and Edinburgh for say the same price as the train I bet you that they would fill their planes with 100% capacity. People would rush to buy tickets between the two cities because they could be guaranteed a seat unlike the train. People might even be happy to pay the £26 knowing that they will get just that, a seat. Over-time they could chip away at Scottrails customer base and to meet growing demand expand their fleet so that they could offer a flight every 10 minutes in both directions during peak hours of 6.30am and 9am and the commute home between 4.30pm and 7pm. There would be no flights between these rush hour times as it wouldn't be profitable and so between 9am and 4.30pm they could perform their other routes for those looking to go on holiday to longer distance places. This profitable model could then be replicated all over the UK between nearby cities where bus and rail services are letting customers down.

Taking your Edinburgh to Glasgow example, do you really think that flying is preferable to the train? If you are in Princes Street and you want to get to central Glasgow, just compare the journey times.
Train - walk to Waverley, get on train, arrive Queen St. walk to George Sq. Total journey time = ~90 minutes
Plane - tram/taxi to Turnhouse, security, flight to Glasgow, bus/taxi to George Sq. Total journey time = ~130 minutes, assuming Kingston Bridge isnít log jammed.
If that doesnít convince you, add in the taxi/bus/tram fares to the plane and it becomes even more unattractive, even if youíve got to stand all the way on the train.
Iím sure there are profitable routes for FlyBe connecting the business hubs of UK, times and routes are the key.

DaveReidUK
15th Jan 2020, 21:17
If they want to make something of themselves then they should be taking on Citylinc and Scottrail on the Glasgow to Edinburgh route! Think about it for a minute. The bus is cheap as chips but the roads are choc-a-bloc. The rail is fast but it costs like £26 a day and you don't even get a seat. IF they were to do a return fare between Glasgow and Edinburgh for say the same price as the train I bet you that they would fill their planes with 100% capacity.

Other than the fact that it makes no sense logistically, I suspect another reason Flybe didn't offer EDI/GLA for £26 return might be something to do with the fact that (until now) after APD was deducted, their resulting revenue per pax would have been precisely £0.

LanceHudson
15th Jan 2020, 21:20
I think it's clear to anyone reading this thread that if Flibea want to survive as a business then major change is going to be needed. In my opinion, they are going to have to take on their rivals in rail and bus head on. No other way about it. From one look at their website I can see the major flaw with their business plan straight away. Why are they running flights from Aberdeen to NewQuay? Or Aberdeen to the East Midlands? How many people actually commute to work between these locations? Exactly, not many. If they want to make money. Serious money. Then they are going to have to take on the big boys in the golden commuter routes. If they want to make something of themselves then they should be taking on Citylinc and Scottrail on the Glasgow to Edinburgh route! Think about it for a minute. The bus is cheap as chips but the roads are choc-a-bloc. The rail is fast but it costs like £26 a day and you don't even get a seat. IF they were to do a return fare between Glasgow and Edinburgh for say the same price as the train I bet you that they would fill their planes with 100% capacity. People would rush to buy tickets between the two cities because they could be guaranteed a seat unlike the train. People might even be happy to pay the £26 knowing that they will get just that, a seat. Over-time they could chip away at Scottrails customer base and to meet growing demand expand their fleet so that they could offer a flight every 10 minutes in both directions during peak hours of 6.30am and 9am and the commute home between 4.30pm and 7pm. There would be no flights between these rush hour times as it wouldn't be profitable and so between 9am and 4.30pm they could perform their other routes for those looking to go on holiday to longer distance places. This profitable model could then be replicated all over the UK between nearby cities where bus and rail services are letting customers down.

Are you joking here?

I commute through to Glasgow on a daily basis and the train is 42 minutes. Even with a flight time of 20 minutes (assuming thereís no hold at GLA or EDI, but at morning peak this happens sometimes) Getting to/from the airport in Edinburgh and Glasgow adds easily an hour on to the journey. Factor in being at the airport an hour before and your Edinburgh - Glasgow takes over 2-hours. Much longer than the 42 min train.

lowfat
15th Jan 2020, 21:21
Well I fly from Newquay to Aberdeen and all he flights are always full. I also take issue with the stupid comment that London to cornwall is quicker by train. Just over an hour by plane and 6 hours by train. At least 6 hours by train. In fact if I have to use the train I drive an hour and half to Exeter rather than my local station which is 3 hours by train to exeter

Union Jack
15th Jan 2020, 21:29
Definitely! Typical ba attitude reminiscent of the Dirty Tricks era. Whining Willie does not offer competition on most of Flybe's routes; I suspect his motives are to try and get ba's grubby hands on Flybe's Heathrow slots.

He should note that El Jefe's dumbing down of ba now means that it is seen as 'like flying Ryanair but without the charm'.

With which a close friend who flew Club Class to Cape Town last night would fully agree, texting me to say that he had flown in "a very old 747 in which bits kept falling off"!

Jack

teamax
16th Jan 2020, 04:28
Virgin just wanted flybes slots down in LHR. .😬

I think this is probably correct.

Gove N.T.
16th Jan 2020, 05:29
Quite possibly, Hence the argument for a 3rd runway which Willie opposes of course to reduce meaningful competition. Virgin can't expand as it would like I suspect. But this is for another thread

mondayrunner
16th Jan 2020, 10:13
Well I fly from Newquay to Aberdeen and all he flights are always full. I also take issue with the stupid comment that London to cornwall is quicker by train. Just over an hour by plane and 6 hours by train. At least 6 hours by train. In fact if I have to use the train I drive an hour and half to Exeter rather than my local station which is 3 hours by train to exeter

Do you just magically appear at the gate ready to board at Heathrow? You're looking at 2 hours to check in and another 30 minutes on top of that at least to get there. Taking the train isn't as quick but it's certainly comparable.

wiggy
16th Jan 2020, 10:59
Do you just magically appear at the gate ready to board at Heathrow? You're looking at 2 hours to check in and another 30 minutes on top of that at least to get there. Taking the train isn't as quick but it's certainly comparable.

"2 hours to check in" - from where?

nicolai
16th Jan 2020, 12:17
Well I fly from Newquay to Aberdeen and all he flights are always full. I also take issue with the stupid comment that London to cornwall is quicker by train. Just over an hour by plane and 6 hours by train. At least 6 hours by train. In fact if I have to use the train I drive an hour and half to Exeter rather than my local station which is 3 hours by train to exeter

For Cornwall, yes.

Exeter to London (Paddington) is 2h15m +/- 15m on the train and 1h on the FlyBE, excluding the time for checkin at the airport. That's comparable enough that anyone with business in west-central London and not the Docklands may well take the train from Devon.

Of course the travel time is much worse if you have to get to Exeter airport from far away, and the trains in Devon and Cornwall other than the main line to Exeter are very slow as are the roads, but the train is still comparing well with the plane on that route.

Cornwall (or Devon) to Scotland is no contest, you'll be travelling all day on the train while the plane gets you there in 1h30m. Even to London, the plane from Newquay is rather faster.

lowfat
16th Jan 2020, 13:42
Do you just magically appear at the gate ready to board at Heathrow? You're looking at 2 hours to check in and another 30 minutes on top of that at least to get there. Taking the train isn't as quick but it's certainly comparable.
okay so https://www.buytickets.avantiwestcoast.co.uk/buytickets/combinedmatrix.aspx?Command=TimeTable
verses https://www.buytickets.avantiwestcoast.co.uk/buytickets/combinedmatrix.aspx?Command=TimeTable
1 hour before at Newquay is 17.40 so Today as I write this for £100 Ican be in London at 20.00 thats 2hours direct including your booking in time. Or get to the station for 1700 allowing 20 minutes till departure and arrive in London at midnight total time 7 hours 2 changes and £70.
Im sorry but case closed.

cats_five
16th Jan 2020, 15:19
Ho hum.

"Flybe to switch Newquay-Heathrow flights to Gatwick"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51134859

Wycombe
16th Jan 2020, 15:57
"Flybe to switch Newquay-Heathrow flights to Gatwick"

Well, well, after possibly more smoke and mirrors then ever seen in the history of commercial aviation, a not unexpected move.

Some in Cornwall will be happy about this (and I guess some not also!)

Nothing seen yet about what the timings/frequency will be (although I think the PSO subsidy is based on 4 daily as now)?

What are the rules around how the LHR slots and how they can be re-used?

inOban
16th Jan 2020, 16:09
The problem is surely that are people who, or whose employer, are prepared to pay an economic fare for an early or late flight. But there aren't during the middle of the day, hence the low fares.
As soon as easyJet announced BHX flights from Edinburgh and Glasgow I immediately thought that this would mean the end of the entire Flybe service, because there would no longer be the cross subsidy between the different flights.
EZY send 4 (5 from S20) planes from EDI on domestic flights first thing. When these return, they leave for cities on the continent - Berlin, Geneva, Paris etc. The reverse happens in the evening. This efficient operation isn't open to the likes of Flybe.

aox
16th Jan 2020, 16:15
Mr O'Leary is getting into the argument as well

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51140969

Again, a Google search for ryanair subsidy produces a wealth of articles about Ryanair receiving subsidy, or operating at airports alleged to be only sustainable with public subsidy, or facing accusations from rivals about unfair subsidy. It even has a marketing article on its own website telling some Spanish citizens they can claim 75% subsidy on their flight costs.

In one of the most astonishing details, the EU ruled that public subsidies on Ryanair flights between AngoulÍme and London in 2008 and 2009 were illegal and should be repaid. in Nov 2018 a Ryanair aircraft was seized at Bordeaux in order to force the airline to stump up the remaining half of the money it still hadn't repaid.

Schoenheit
16th Jan 2020, 16:18
He has been on the losing side of some of those cases so he knows what illegal state support looks like better than You or I.

cats_five
16th Jan 2020, 16:45
The problem is surely that are people who, or whose employer, are prepared to pay an economic fare for an early or late flight. But there aren't during the middle of the day, hence the low fares.
As soon as easyJet announced BHX flights from Edinburgh and Glasgow I immediately thought that this would mean the end of the entire Flybe service, because there would no longer be the cross subsidy between the different flights.
EZY send 4 (5 from S20) planes from EDI on domestic flights first thing. When these return, they leave for cities on the continent - Berlin, Geneva, Paris etc. The reverse happens in the evening. This efficient operation isn't open to the likes of Flybe.

No Easyjet flights from EDI to BHX or reverse.

inOban
16th Jan 2020, 16:55
They start with the S20 schedule. That's the fifth early domestic rotation, the others being 3xLondon, plus BFS. There's an early BRS rotation also, but it's BRS based usually.

cats_five
16th Jan 2020, 17:06
They start with the S20 schedule. That's the fifth early domestic rotation, the others being 3xLondon, plus BFS. There's an early BFS rotation also, but it's BFS based usually.

No flights until 29th March. Any idea what their schedule will be?

cats_five
16th Jan 2020, 17:09
No flights until 29th March. Any idea what their schedule will be?

I looked and not very useful at the weekends.

fergusd
16th Jan 2020, 19:56
The problem is surely that are people who, or whose employer, are prepared to pay an economic fare for an early or late flight. But there aren't during the middle of the day, hence the low fares.

Assume you mean 'uneconomic', anyway business travel can easily justify the costs of travel (else we wouldn't be in business or wouldn't be travelling) and will only use travel at the ends of the day, what's the point in flying anywhere in the middle of the day ?

I assume tourists travel in the middle of the day, they probably have nothing better to do.

the EDI<->BHX route has a couple of EZY flights during the summer. I care not a jot what the cost is, I'm mostly interested in compliance with schedule.

inOban
16th Jan 2020, 20:37
what's the point in flying anywhere in the middle of the day ?

There are fixed costs and marginal costs. Clearly if the potential revenue won't even cover fuel, landing/navigation charges etc, then you leave it on the ground. But you're still leasing the plane, and I'm sure the crew won't like split shifts, so it's still costing. And I understand that fuel is a surprisingly small proportion of an airline's costs


Celestial18
16th Jan 2020, 20:39
Well I fly from Newquay to Aberdeen and all he flights are always full. I also take issue with the stupid comment that London to cornwall is quicker by train. Just over an hour by plane and 6 hours by train. At least 6 hours by train. In fact if I have to use the train I drive an hour and half to Exeter rather than my local station which is 3 hours by train to exeter
Newquay is effectively the airport for all of Cornwall though. For those in the north of the county, Saltash and Liskeard have regular services to London taking around 3hrs 30. And lots more if you cross the Tamar to Plymouth too. Even Penzance is just 5 hrs away, not 6, though Iíll admit plane wins there for speed, even allowing for getting to the airport.

I was struck by the businessman quoted on the BBC who said he would be devastated if the Manchester to Edinburgh route folded. Well thereís a 3hr train that runs every two hours, which city centre to city centre will beat flying these days, once you factor in travel to airport, arrival at the airport no later than 45 mins before departure time (15 min security, 30 min gate closed), contingency margin, and travel into city at the other end. And less stressful and more productive too.

Twiglet1
17th Jan 2020, 04:59
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-51140977

"Company has legacy issues to deal with", "Went into summer very unresilient in terms of our Ops, with a weak fleet, with a lot of gaps in terms of people flying our aircraft (not enough crew?), with hugh payments being made to people to get them to work extra hours...)
So what's the day off payment at Flybe?
I'd say it will only get worse now as crews start bailing out...

KeyPilot
17th Jan 2020, 07:15
I am not a particular fan of the UK government bailing out failing companies, both in principle and in this FlyBE case.

However I am EVEN LESS a fan of two Irish citizens trying to bully a democratically elected UK government to follow a policy which will make them richer, and which is to the detriment of UK businesses and consumers.

Anyone else think the same??

Wycombe
17th Jan 2020, 07:24
Anyone else think the same??

Yes, they should both but out and perhaps return to threatening to knee each other in the groin instead!

MOL's letter shows very little understanding of what actually might be going on.

Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP
17th Jan 2020, 07:27
I am not a particular fan of the UK government bailing out failing companies, both in principle and in this FlyBE case.

However I am EVEN LESS a fan of two Irish citizens trying to bully a democratically elected UK government to follow a policy which will make them richer, and which is to the detriment of UK businesses and consumers.

Anyone else think the same??

No.

The heritage of MOL and WW is irrelevant. FR and BA operate domestic UK services in the same way as FlyBe. They should all be playing by the same rules.

Do you want to extend your questionable attitude to the CEO of EasyJet as well? Heís a Swede.

KeyPilot
17th Jan 2020, 07:35
No.

The heritage of MOL and WW is irrelevant. FR and BA operate domestic UK services in the same way as FlyBe. They should all be playing by the same rules.

Do you want to extend your questionable attitude to the CEO of EasyJet as well? Heís a Swede.

You are entitled to your point of view.

As a point of fact, do FR operate any UK domestic routes other than Londonderry to/from LPL and EDI?

Wycombe
17th Jan 2020, 07:42
FR and BA operate domestic UK services in the same way as FlyBe.

Sorry but that is nonsense. They both operate very select domestic routes, BA's all very London-centric and RYR very few full stop (UK to Eire is not domestic).

Both airlines will benefit if there is a change (reduction) in APD.

Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP
17th Jan 2020, 07:56
Sorry but that is nonsense. They both operate very select domestic routes, BA's all very London-centric and RYR very few full stop (UK to Eire is not domestic).

Both airlines will benefit if there is a change (reduction) in APD.

Regardless of routes flown, the tax treatment on UK domestic flights should be the same for any operator. EZY, BA, FlyBe, FR, Loganair etc.

FlyBe have been treated in a different way to others in that they have had their APD tax obligations deferred.

What does the racial heritage of any CEO have to do with whether a legal challenge should be heard or not?

KeyPilot
17th Jan 2020, 08:24
We are talking about nationality, not race.

Is it proper for citizens of one country, to seek to influence the domestic policy of other countries?

c52
17th Jan 2020, 08:46
I would put the questions in terms of employees of foreign companies such as Ryanair & IAG, but, yes, it's proper. They are stakeholders in UK domestic air travel.

If HMG wished to legislate for only UK-owned airlines to fly domestic routes, and thus follow every* other country in the world (counting the EU as a country for this purpose) that's fine as well.

* no idea how true that is

KeyPilot
17th Jan 2020, 08:57
100% correct! I was looking recently at having to travel from West Oxfordshire to Edinburgh for a 2 day conference. The options were 7 hours and 2 or 3 changes by train - or to drive to BHX and fly with flyBe - which was quicker and cheaper with the guarantee of a seat.

At the danger (certainty!) of thread creed, Beagle what's your view on Upper Heyford not having been converted for use as a civil airport? Lost opportunity for a valuable addition to SE runway capacity, or unsuitable/impractical for a range of reasons??

aox
17th Jan 2020, 09:44
Regardless of routes flown, the tax treatment on UK domestic flights should be the same for any operator. EZY, BA, FlyBe, FR, Loganair etc.

FlyBe have been treated in a different way to others in that they have had their APD tax obligations deferred.


Unless anyone can prove otherwise, which would be surprising as it's illegal, the liability is at the same duty rate.

Any taxpayer, including the rival airlines, may be able to negotiate some deferment of when they pay their tax, which includes being charged interest.

So no difference there.

I'm sure Ryanair's tax collector would deal impartially with any application the airline might choose to make, including keeping the details confidential from the rest of us.

Alan Baker
17th Jan 2020, 10:51
Newquay is effectively the airport for all of Cornwall though. For those in the north of the county, Saltash and Liskeard have regular services to London taking around 3hrs 30. And lots more if you cross the Tamar to Plymouth too. Even Penzance is just 5 hrs away, not 6, though Iíll admit plane wins there for speed, even allowing for getting to the airport.

I was struck by the businessman quoted on the BBC who said he would be devastated if the Manchester to Edinburgh route folded. Well thereís a 3hr train that runs every two hours, which city centre to city centre will beat flying these days, once you factor in travel to airport, arrival at the airport no later than 45 mins before departure time (15 min security, 30 min gate closed), contingency margin, and travel into city at the other end. And less stressful and more productive too.
The supposed city centre to city centre "advantage " of rail is always overstated. Few people live near London rail termini. If you wanted to get from, say, Slough to Edinburgh by rail you are faced with a trip to Paddington and the Underground to King's Cross before getting your train to Edinburgh. It would be much quicker to fly from Heathrow. Similarly, if the devastated businessman lives near Manchester Airport, flying is much the quickest option.

aox
17th Jan 2020, 11:02
Articles appearing in the last hour or two have Flybe saying the amount deferred is under £10 million

e.g. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51147471

​​I can't work out what all the hoohah was about, in any direction - partly why are critics going over the top, but even before that why did the airline set itself up for this publicity and reaction over what might be a relatively trivial amount and could have remained confidential like for other taxpayers.

edit: hee hee, comment just added on BBC article (not by me)

lol @ Ryanair you shouldnt be selling flights for £9.99 when you have to pay £13 tax. Increase your prices instead of taking the UK to the EU courts.

fergusd
17th Jan 2020, 12:22
The supposed city centre to city centre "advantage " of rail is always overstated. Few people live near London rail termini. If you wanted to get from, say, Slough to Edinburgh by rail you are faced with a trip to Paddington and the Underground to King's Cross before getting your train to Edinburgh. It would be much quicker to fly from Heathrow. Similarly, if the devastated businessman lives near Manchester Airport, flying is much the quickest option.

It may also surprise the tireless pro-train brigade to know that very few people hold meetings in railway stations . . . and very few businesses are walking distance from said railway stations.

wiggy
17th Jan 2020, 12:29
We are talking about nationality, not race.

Is it proper for citizens of one country, to seek to influence the domestic policy of other countries?

Donít know, youíd better ask the likes of Alexander Lebedev or Rupert Murdoch.....

Have to say I agree with Jim Hacker on this:

Regardless of routes flown, the tax treatment on UK domestic flights should be the same for any operator. EZY, BA, FlyBe, FR, Loganair etc.

Wycombe
17th Jan 2020, 14:56
Have to say I agree with Jim Hacker on this:
Quote:
Regardless of routes flown, the tax treatment on UK domestic flights should be the same for any operator. EZY, BA, FlyBe, FR, Loganair etc.


Yes of course it should, and they all stand to benefit if there is a favourable change to APD.

Jim's assertion that the likes of BA and RYR face the same challenges on regional routes as Flybe do was what I disagreed with.

SWBKCB
17th Jan 2020, 15:33
I can't work out what all the hoohah was about, in any direction

I agree - all very odd. To be honest deferring £10m is nowt, must be more to it. This from Theo Leggett on the BBC website:Three days after the government trumpeted its deal with Flybe's shareholders to keep the airline operating, it's still far from clear what has actually been agreed.

We know that shareholders plan to make up to £30m available and £9m will come from Stobart Group, with the funds "drawn down only if required". It's not clear how much Cyrus Capital and Virgin Atlantic will each provide.

We know that the Flybe is talking to the government about a loan, because chief executive Mark Anderson has said so. He told employees it would be "a commercial loan … the same as any loan we'd take from any bank".

And Flybe says it has agreed a plan with HMRC to delay payment of a debt "of less than £10m" for a few months.

But many questions remain.

For example, if the government loan is going to be on commercial terms, why not just go to a bank?

If the shareholders are willing to pump in up to £30m, why does Flybe need to delay paying its debts to HMRC?

With a full blown row raging over whether or not the package involves state aid, and whether the government should actually be encouraging regional air transport at all, it seems transparency is in very short supply.

inOban
17th Jan 2020, 15:34
It may also surprise the tireless pro-train brigade to know that very few people hold meetings in railway stations . . . and very few businesses are walking distance from said railway stations.
Edinburgh's main conference and financial centre is a few minutes walk from Haymarket station. Hence the rapid rise in passengers there, and the fall in use of the plane. The train service from Manchester has been a mess recently, but when all the new trains are in use, I wouldn't be surprised if the EDI service stops, as the Glasgow service already has.

Livesinafield
17th Jan 2020, 22:27
For example, if the government loan is going to be on commercial terms, why not just go to a bank?

This needs to be secured onto something, and would require strict financial assessment... its the equivalent of you going to Lloyds and trying to borrow 50K to pay of some of your mortgage while your on the edge of bankruptcy...

old,not bold
19th Jan 2020, 11:44
I watched with astonishment a discussion on BBC Southwest this morning about Flybe; 3 or 4 so-called experts, each with an agenda. None of them, nor the presenter, appeared to understand that Flybe is a conglomerate of several businesses, including, of course, the Engineering.

Ever since being closely involved with persuading Jack Walker to merge his 2 airline acquisitions into one, based at Exeter, in the 1980s I have watched with despair successive CEOs/Board of Directors screw JEA/Flybe up, as they massaged their own ambitions.

Not one of the "experts" this morning mentioned the self-evident truth that Flybe's problems stem from this dreadful management over the last decade, or even further back to the unlamented Jim French. A series of ridiculous decisions that had a lot more to do with management egos than common sense, eg acquiring a much larger, failing, airline and fleet in the childish belief that it could be absorbed painlessly into the company. That went well, didn't it.

Of course taxpayers' money should not be used to get the current owners out of the financial mess they bought in to/created. But there is a "national interest" case for financial support for routes that contribute to regional economies by providing connections between regional centres and between them and hub airports.

If Flybe were to be slimmed down to what it does best, regional scheduled services on routes where the Dash 8 is economic, forget the "me-too" leisure routes aimed at competing pointlessly and hopelessly with Easyjet, Jet2, and Ryanair, and lose the jets acquired for that purpose, it could be a viable operation, with the engineering as a profitable contributor. It would need financial support initially, from the taxpayer.

But to do that with taxpayers' funds without the present owners getting one penny of benefit means that the Government must do what it did with the banks; acquire ownership as a condition of the support, then slim it down to a profitable regional airline with only the Dash 8s, and then sell its shares back to the public when they have a value, to get the taxpayers' money back.

This is a well-tried model and it works. But will BoJo's team have the nous, experience or ability to carry it off? NO. What a pity.

Blackfriar
19th Jan 2020, 13:32
I watched with astonishment a discussion on BBC Southwest this morning about Flybe; 3 or 4 so-called experts, each with an agenda. None of them, nor the presenter, appeared to understand that Flybe is a conglomerate of several businesses, including, of course, the Engineering.

Ever since being closely involved with persuading Jack Walker to merge his 2 airline acquisitions into one, based at Exeter, in the 1980s I have watched with despair successive CEOs/Board of Directors screw JEA/Flybe up, as they massaged their own ambitions.

Not one of the "experts" this morning mentioned the self-evident truth that Flybe's problems stem from this dreadful management over the last decade, or even further back to the unlamented Jim French. A series of ridiculous decisions that had a lot more to do with management egos than common sense, eg acquiring a much larger, failing, airline and fleet in the childish belief that it could be absorbed painlessly into the company. That went well, didn't it.

Of course taxpayers' money should not be used to get the current owners out of the financial mess they bought in to/created. But there is a "national interest" case for financial support for routes that contribute to regional economies by providing connections between regional centres and between them and hub airports.

If Flybe were to be slimmed down to what it does best, regional scheduled services on routes where the Dash 8 is economic, forget the "me-too" leisure routes aimed at competing pointlessly and hopelessly with Easyjet, Jet2, and Ryanair, and lose the jets acquired for that purpose, it could be a viable operation, with the engineering as a profitable contributor. It would need financial support initially, from the taxpayer.

But to do that with taxpayers' funds without the present owners getting one penny of benefit means that the Government must do what it did with the banks; acquire ownership as a condition of the support, then slim it down to a profitable regional airline with only the Dash 8s, and then sell its shares back to the public when they have a value, to get the taxpayers' money back.

This is a well-tried model and it works. But will BoJo's team have the nous, experience or ability to carry it off? NO. What a pity.

The number of "regional" routes that can justify double daily Dash-8 and not be pounced on once the traffic is up and running by a loco runnng a 737/319/320 are very limited. Unfortunately economics in the airline business is now in the far right sector of the product life cycle curve - everthing tends to the lowest cost, most efficient and in the airline business that is 737/320. if you can get enough to run a dash-8 profitably, you can run a 737/320 picking up premium flexible fare-payers for the business element with the £25 each way fill ups generating student, VFR and other business traffic that is less time sensitive. The price elasticity of demand at £25 one-way is quite high, generating a lot of traffic that even £50 one way won't.

Go on a loco Mondy morning and see the electricians/plasterers/roofers etc. heading somewhere for a week's or even a day's work. They wouldn't be there at Flybe Dash-8 prices. Companies no longer need regional offices if there is a direct flight for an installation/repair engineer
I can do Bristol to BFS on easy for £60 return, look at Flybe Birmingham/BHD and it used to be 3x that price. Today it is £30 each way. Was that bad pricing/marketing, wrong aeroplane or the wrong business model? Easyjet (and others) have designed their business to be low cost - everything is low cost. Put on a flight, market it, get load factor at 95% and see if the yield comes up to make it worthwhile. If not move the asset somewhere else. That is 21st Century short-haul in a nutshell. If the government wants to support regions, then have government owned airports, free landing fees and maybe subsidise route start-ups for a year. How to make a small fortune? Start with a big fortune an buy an airline.

The previous management of Flybe got their strategy wrong and also didn't build in any get-out option (i.e. breaking leases on the wrong aeroplanes). I feel for the staff but there are only two options;
The current owners weather the strategic setup until they can change it; I don't know the detail of the leases/end-dates etc. so I have no idea how long this is. But they have just got 4 slots at LHR which must be worth several £millions (by moving NQY to LGW).
It goes bust and someone starts again (pre-pack insolvency, not likely now that a deal has been done with the government).

Schoenheit
20th Jan 2020, 13:02
Tinkler has sold out and licking his wounds after his experiences with Stobart and FlyBE
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/85425

Livesinafield
21st Jan 2020, 18:02
The tinkler deal was his attempt at sinking the virgin takeover to try and get at stobart, it didn't work out and this little venture has cost him a fortune.

Also worth noting his shares where in an Asset less Flybe PLC

Schoenheit
21st Jan 2020, 19:38
The tinkler deal was his attempt at sinking the virgin takeover to try and get at stobart, it didn't work out and this little venture has cost him a fortune.

Also worth noting his shares where in an Asset less Flybe PLC
Get at Stobart. He was a significant part of Stobart. He was in dispute with those managing Stobart,

bean
23rd Jan 2020, 01:33
Get at Stobart. He was a significant part of Stobart. He was in dispute with those managing Stobart,
Because they fired him and he lost the subsequent employment trobunal case

robdean
28th Jan 2020, 11:47
Can of whup-ass opened by The Times today:

Not everyone understands how commercial loans work. So how lucky Mark Anderson can explain. The Flybe boss is trying to prise £100 million out of the government. And all via Boris Johnson’s new “levelling up” policy: one aimed, apparently, at keeping the bank accounts of the airline’s owners up to the levels they like.

Still, don’t accuse Mr Anderson of demanding any sweetheart terms for a business owned by the billionaires behind Virgin Atlantic — Sir Richard Branson and Delta Air Lines — plus New York hedge fund Cyrus Capital and Stobart. As he told Flybe staff: “We are in conversation with the government around a financial loan — a loan, not a bailout — a commercial loan, but that is the same as any loan we’d take from any bank.”

Really? So why not talk to a bank, then? Short answer: because after the stunts that Flybe’s owners have pulled with its assets, they’d struggle to get a commercial loan. As Companies House filings show, there’s almost zero security left.

Having bought the assets for just £2.8 million last February, one of the owners’ first moves was to strike a deal with Global Loans Agency Services: a trustee for their stakes that takes security over certain assets. So it’s a sort of middleman between Flybe’s owners and its assets. Or at least those that can’t fly off: lessors already had security over most of the 67 turboprop planes.

The rest of the assets, including buildings, aircraft engines and receivables, then look to have been divvied up between the owners. Filings show that Flybe’s holding company — Connect Airways — is both “chargors” and “guarantors” for asset deals. Indeed, the document says: “Each chargor shall attach to a visible part of each item of specified equipment owned by it and with a value in excess of £10,000 . . . a clear and distinctive label.”

The upshot? Well, should Flybe go bust, the owners have a charge over specific assets: enough, maybe, to eliminate any losses. True, they claim to have injected £110 million. But it’s questionable how much of that was cash. Stobart’s £45 million, say, was mainly its regional airline and aircraft-leasing wing, which experts reckon were worth nothing like that. To boot, by using Global Loans, the owners avoid a bunfight over any future carve-up.

On top came the owners’ wheeze with Flybe’s Heathrow slots. They switched Newquay flights under the taxpayer-funded “public service obligation” regime to Gatwick: a dodge, potentially to the benefit of Virgin Atlantic, that unlocked an estimated £60 million of value.

And now, on top of a £10 million holiday on air passenger duty, they want a £100 million taxpayer loan. They can afford to inject fresh equity. Without that, no bank would lend to a loss-making airline whose wealthy owners were up to these sorts of capers. And neither should the government. Indeed, the money would be far better spent subsidising essential routes. Not minted owners intent on looking after themselves

double_barrel
28th Jan 2020, 11:52
I've just been booked on Flybe MAN-EDI in a couple of weeks. I thought they had stopped operating?

inOban
28th Jan 2020, 12:24
They dropped Glasgow but not Edinburgh, yet. Can't see it lasting long once all the new trains are running instead of sitting in the sidings.

Schoenheit
28th Jan 2020, 14:12
Now that it is owned by the group who owns it now the only way it will provide public services is if they are paid handsomely to do so. They are asset strippers and will only provide a "service" if it is more profitable than stripping it.
COW should never have forced the previous shareholders to sell. breaking it down for asset value or selling slices of it to other regional operators would have been better for Britain
They are not paying APD, they are not paying landing fees or similar services at Airports, they are putting charges on assets to prevent other Creditors to stand in line to secure them, they are in the process of diverting landing slots at Heathrow to their benefit.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/01/25/flybe-gets-begging-bowl-debt/

They got a 10m tax deferral which is basically an interest free loan and are lookign for another 100m
The only thing British Politicians should be doing now is directing this company to the FRC/corporate enforcement authorities.

Livesinafield
28th Jan 2020, 19:00
Now that it is owned by the group who owns it now the only way it will provide public services is if they are paid handsomely to do so. They are asset strippers and will only provide a "service" if it is more profitable than stripping it.
COW should never have forced the previous shareholders to sell. breaking it down for asset value or selling slices of it to other regional operators would have been better for Britain
They are not paying APD, they are not paying landing fees or similar services at Airports, they are putting charges on assets to prevent other Creditors to stand in line to secure them, they are in the process of diverting landing slots at Heathrow to their benefit.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...ing-bowl-debt/ (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/01/25/flybe-gets-begging-bowl-debt/)

They got a 10m tax deferral which is basically an interest free loan and are lookign for another 100m
The only thing British Politicians should be doing now is directing this company to the FRC/corporate enforcement authorities.

:rolleyes:

Well for asset strippers they sure didn't pick the right Business, Flybe's liabilities well outweigh any value from their assets (do some research), so no benefit there, more angry talk about shareholders, are you yet another Jordan Belfort "wanna be" that got stung bad on the stocks I assume??
This lot have piled well over 100M into Flybe and are now pilling in another 50... seems a great way to strip assets down that does.

Flybe owns nothing, all the "assets" have been transferred to the consortium so if they wanted to they could have folded the company 2 weeks ago, This current deal is all a fiddle all pre-planned for weeks/months between Connect and Government, Government keeps its pledges from its manifesto and "saves British connectivity" and Flybe/Virgin get a nice 100M loan to top them up while they weather "unforeseen" circumstances, all without the investors having to dig any deeper into their pockets

Schoenheit
28th Jan 2020, 19:22
As the Times has said they haven't put 100m in to it. nowhere near it. Thankfully I'm not paying taxes in Britain toward this atrocity.