Hill Helicopters HX50

[206 jock]

But even if the engine and gearbox never appear, what is to stop Hill from buying and installing existing solutions for other manufacturers?
Other than an engineering fix that JH could do in his lunch break, not much. Other than every engine manufacturer would ask for a price that's about the same as Hill propose to charge for their entire helicopter.

They call it Aviation 2.0. Or is it Vertical integration? I am so confused

[212man]

A few days ago, they showed a test rig for a combustion chamber working; the combustion chamber was burning and doing its thing. So progress is being made.
But even if the engine and gearbox never appear, what is to stop Hill from buying and installing existing solutions for other manufacturers?
No they didn't - they tested the fuel nozzles and spray pattern, and the combustion characteristics, in a metal box. It is shown and ridiculed discussed a few posts above. A combustion chamber is a whole next level of complexity.

[DroneDog]

I stand corrected

[ShyTorque]

I don’t understand why they are trying to do this. Frank Whittle, with “Power jets”, got to a similar stage over eighty five years ago.

[hargreaves99]

I assume Hill are doing this as Jason Hill doesn't want to source an engine from RR/Ariel/P&W etc, as that would cost too much and he would be beholden to another company, and the HX would then cost the same as a Bell 505, hence he wouldn't sell any.

[212man]

I assume Hill are doing this as Jason Hill doesn't want to source an engine from RR/Ariel/P&W etc, as that would cost too much and he would be beholden to another company, and the HX would then cost the same as a Bell 505, hence he wouldn't sell any.
I think that is clear, but surely they can buy some components, like fuel nozzles, COTS? OEMs do not manufacture every component in an aircraft/engine - they buy from third party suppliers (experts). Same as car OEMs - they use Bosch etc.

[Bengo]

I think that is clear, but surely they can buy some components, like fuel nozzles, COTS? OEMs do not manufacture every component in an aircraft/engine - they buy from third party suppliers (experts). Same as car OEMs - they use Bosch etc.


It is about IP.

Having worked in ths automotive supply chain it is very much the case that you do not supply or make anything that does not come either with its own set of drawings from the buyers or with a well documented licence from the IP owner. It is also wise to make sure that said drawings are not identical to a set from a different OEM.

So, if JH wants to use OTS components he will need to obtain the OK of the IP owners. That will come as part of a commercial transaction and the price to Hill will no doubt reflect the commercial advantages and perspective of the IP owner.

N

[212man]

It is about IP.

Having worked in ths automotive supply chain it is very much the case that you do not supply or make anything that does not come either with its own set of drawings from the buyers or with a well documented licence from the IP owner. It is also wise to make sure that said drawings are not identical to a set from a different OEM.

So, if JH wants to use OTS components he will need to obtain the OK of the IP owners. That will come as part of a commercial transaction and the price to Hill will no doubt reflect the commercial advantages and perspective of the IP owner.

N

thanks!

[[email protected]]

So, essentially, no further forward other than a shiny mock-up for HAI and burning fuel in a box. Wow I bet the OEMS are really shaking in their boots now.........

And they have re-invented the Gazelle frangible fairing for underneath the fenestron - absolutely cutting edge....

And you can fit 5 hours of fuel in the tanks to power the engine which isn't running yet so they have no idea about fuel burn......

Does it look nice? yes of course but there is a very long way to go and 2024 is passing quickly.

[Hughes500]

Oh my god, Hill is trying to incinerate a dumpster with a raspberry Pi processor development kit, out of the back of his garage. The Safran guys must have so much fun passing that video around at lunch break.
Well the Safran guys can afford to take the piss as they severely take the piss on what they charge for their engines , spares etc etc

[Shagpile]

Do the armchair experts here expect a fully assembled production engine without the individual steps required to build and test each part?

It seems blindingly obvious to me this is forward progress. This is to test and tune one small component which will go into the next full combustion rig, and so on. 🤦🏻‍♂️

Can we please go back to talking about technicalities rather than the endless loop of nonsense and slow claps. There was a great page a few back, where people were discussing actual technical stuff which was very interesting, rather than the usual trash talk.

[Bengo]

Do the armchair experts here expect a fully assembled production engine without the individual steps required to build and test each part?

It seems blindingly obvious to me this is forward progress. This is to test and tune one small component which will go into the next full combustion rig, and so on. 🤦🏻‍♂️

Can we please go back to talking about technicalities rather than the endless loop of nonsense and slow claps. There was a great page a few back, where people were discussing actual technical stuff which was very interesting, rather than the usual trash talk.

I dont think anyone anyone is saying technicalities mean it cannot be done so no point in dicussing them. The general discussion says it looks great, but the technicalities have too little substance yet. That means the projected timescales are optimistic at best, or more realistically, not going to be met.

Testing and tuning the small components of the next combustion rig is great, and essential but needed to be happening much earlier if even the current planned flight dates are going to be met. There is also no allowance built in for discoveries. These will occur, and, at some point the whole flight test programme wil go TU because the engine, or the gearbox, or some other component that no one thought was hard to design or make, has popped up a surprise. That will do nowt for the project timescale either.
On the other hand, if Mr Hill had said ' I am going to assemble a team to design a great new helo from the skids/wheels up, build a new factory to make nearly every part of it and produce hundreds a year and it will all be ready when its ready and cost what it costs then' he would have had no customers.

N

[Hedge36]

Gosh, I can't wait to be one of the first owners of Hill Engine 1.0.

[PEASACAKE]

So, essentially, no further forward other than a shiny mock-up for HAI and burning fuel in a box. Wow I bet the OEMS are really shaking in their boots now.........

And they have re-invented the Gazelle frangible fairing for underneath the fenestron - absolutely cutting edge....

And you can fit 5 hours of fuel in the tanks to power the engine which isn't running yet so they have no idea about fuel burn......

Does it look nice? yes of course but there is a very long way to go and 2024 is passing quickly.


I have just watched an early youtube video from Hill Helicopters from 3 years ago, where it is stated the engine is an extremely efficient engine consuming 34-35 gallons per hour (HX50 Behind the design)................................

[Pittsextra]

Well the Safran guys can afford to take the piss as they severely take the piss on what they charge for their engines , spares etc etc

What is fair value for complete working & proven motors with a supply chain and trained service agents? Seems to me we are focused on price but ignoring value.

[admikar]

I have just watched an early youtube video from Hill Helicopters from 3 years ago, where it is stated the engine is an extremely efficient engine consuming 34-35 gallons per hour (HX50 Behind the design)................................
I think it's safe to say that is what they would like to have. Since it's still not running, performance figures are unknown. Could it be met? I don't know, I'm not an engineer.

[PowerPedal]

No, Safran are taking the piss. Recently had our Arrius 2F sent back for calendar life extension- charged us 75,000 EUR to inspect the engine, was returned back to us with a 2% drop on the power check. thanks Safran. A mate had his hot section replaced (timed out) on an AS350B2 3 years ago for $300k. Safran now charging him $650k for the same hot section on another B2 in his fleet just 3 years later. They literally have no competition (for eurocopter/airbus aircraft and now the 505) and therefore they can literally charge whatever they like. Given the majority of customers are either government or large organisations they just pay it. It's the private owner that gets smashed, and this is what is killing private helicopter ownership.

[hargreaves99]

Someone needs to design a 3-4 bladed 4-5 seat aircraft that uses a RR300 (R66) engine. - an aircraft that you don't have to throw away after 12 years/2,000 hours

[Pittsextra]

No, Safran are taking the piss. Recently had our Arrius 2F sent back for calendar life extension- charged us 75,000 EUR to inspect the engine, was returned back to us with a 2% drop on the power check. thanks Safran. A mate had his hot section replaced (timed out) on an AS350B2 3 years ago for $300k. Safran now charging him $650k for the same hot section on another B2 in his fleet just 3 years later. They literally have no competition (for eurocopter/airbus aircraft and now the 505) and therefore they can literally charge whatever they like. Given the majority of customers are either government or large organisations they just pay it. It's the private owner that gets smashed, and this is what is killing private helicopter ownership.

What is the correct price because if you look at the stock price until governments decided they needed to spend more on defence it was fairly uninteresting- suggesting that the previous pricing was not really making them enough money.

I guess my point is having Safran or anyone else making motors is not a right. They do it because that is their business and they make money for the holders of the equity. If they don’t make money they stop. Then you don’t fly at all - or not with this motor. Aviation generally is the oddest combination of huge capital and if operating as a business usually a race to the bottom and thin margins. Maybe Safran started to work it out business wise and in the meantime provides a functional product.

[Pittsextra]

Someone needs to design a 3-4 bladed 4-5 seat aircraft that uses a RR300 (R66) engine. - an aircraft that you don't have to throw away after 12 years/2,000 hours

what’s happened to the Kopter?

[KiwiNedNZ]

what’s happened to the Kopter?

Its now called the AW09 built by Leonardo.

[Agile]

No, Safran are taking the piss. Recently had our Arrius 2F sent back for calendar life extension- charged us 75,000 EUR to inspect the engine, was returned back to us with a 2% drop on the power check. thanks Safran. A mate had his hot section replaced (timed out) on an AS350B2 3 years ago for $300k. Safran now charging him $650k for the same hot section on another B2 in his fleet just 3 years later. They literally have no competition (for eurocopter/airbus aircraft and now the 505) and therefore they can literally charge whatever they like. Given the majority of customers are either government or large organisations they just pay it. It's the private owner that gets smashed, and this is what is killing private helicopter ownership.
Yes:
Since the merging of Eurocopter with Airbus, it has been part of an obvious and expected strategy, to phase out the low end of the market (most private owners).
Goodby the EC120, and hello 5 blades upgrade kits for the H145. Since the merging of of Turbomeca with Safran, same idea more expensive service, more performance.
So why do people pay for it? because it makes sense in their value chain.

As the result, the value chain of the private owner and the small operator has been left in a vacuum. Thus the popularity of new players like Guimbal, Hill, Kopter..
I sometime wonder how much meat there is on that bone really, AW09 how long is that thing been on the development phase? is there enough potential sale to recover all that R&D.
The source of the helicopter industry cost structure handicap is the low volume potential against the development R&D cost.
Hill has fixed the volume issue, but has he fixed the development R&D cost problem?, I don't think so, not by redoing every single components.

There is also no allowance built in for discoveries. These will occur, and, at some point the whole flight test programme wil go TU because the engine, or the gearbox, or some other component that no one thought was hard to design or make, has popped up a surprise. That will do nowt for the project timescale either. N
Really agree with he above, I work in high end R&D, those "discoveries", how you handle them really separate the boys from the man. Regardless in all cases there is no going arround asking your client for more time (and more money :)).
Look at what hapenned with Kopter/AW09, as smart as Martin Stucki was, AW took the SH09 and changed everything, engine, transmission, rotor head..., What hapenned they did not like it?, they had a surprise popping up?

Edit: SH09 first flew in 2014, 10year ago, HX50 is not flying yet

[wrench1]

People seem to forget the HX50 is an E/AB aircraft. The Guimbal, Kopter/AW09, and similar are not its competitor. The Safari, Mini-500, Hummingbird, and Mosquito are. Basically there is no competition. That is the draw to the HX50. If Hill pulls it off, it will change things on a number of levels.

[mechpowi]

Are there companies producing custom high end single crystal turbine blades for customers? I'm not an expert on manufacturing, but my understanding is that you can't just order or build a prdoduction line for that. Even if they can design competitive turbines and other high stress parts of the engine, how are they planing to produce those? How long took it China to figure that out with all the power they had available? Several decades at least.

If they try to go with something with lesser production requirements, they need to settle for lower temps with associated power and efficiency penalties, lower reliability and lower service life.

​​​


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[PEASACAKE]

So, essentially, no further forward other than a shiny mock-up for HAI and burning fuel in a box. Wow I bet the OEMS are really shaking in their boots now.........

And they have re-invented the Gazelle frangible fairing for underneath the fenestron - absolutely cutting edge....

And you can fit 5 hours of fuel in the tanks to power the engine which isn't running yet so they have no idea about fuel burn......

Does it look nice? yes of course but there is a very long way to go and 2024 is passing quickly.

At 35 gallons an hour the fuel tank must be at least 175 gallons capacity............if it has 5 hour duration. Now that is quite a large fuel tank(s).

[212man]

At 35 gallons an hour the fuel tank must be at least 175 gallons capacity............if it has 5 hour duration. Now that is quite a large fuel tank(s).
almost half as big again as the EC130!

[hargreaves99]

Hill are going to make all the turbine blades themselves. Everything is going to be made in-house

Are there companies producing custom high end single crystal turbine blades for customers? I'm not an expert on manufacturing, but my understanding is that you can't just order or build a prdoduction line for that. Even if they can design competitive turbines and other high stress parts of the engine, how are they planing to produce those? How long took it China to figure that out with all the power they had available? Several decades at least.

If they try to go with something with lesser production requirements, they need to settle for lower temps with associated power and efficiency penalties, lower reliability and lower service life.

​​​


​​​​​

[mechpowi]

So in addition to learnging to bulid a helicopter, they are planing to learn advanced metallyrgy. For me this has always seem to be by far the biggest challenge of manufacturing the HX50. (And not dicussed much in here.) They should be showing by now their production line and produced test pieces if they hope to have even a single turbine flying in the next five to ten years.

​​

[Phoinix]

It’s all fiction. Think of it as cryptocurrency. It came from early investments, was built entirely on hype, and will be sold as cryptocurrency—worthless in any practical sense, idiotic even, but it’s money. And money doesn’t stink. Some know that, and a lot of investors are actually crypto millionaires.

So, nobody cares about the materials, and their own fuel. Nobody cares if the engine will have any reliability. It’s hype only. Designed to be an eye catcher to lure in more investors. It’s a hands-on crypto and like with any crypto, the experienced ones will take the money from naive and hopeful individuals.

[Shagpile]

This thread sounds like the board room of VW when Tesla came onto the scene.

To answer the Q about turbine blades: they have been onto this for years now. One of the first things they did was pour the super-alloy into casts using inert gas environment (instead of vacuum) and send it off for analysis to prove out the concept. They've since done loads of casting trials using wax moulds & machining down the result & sending off for analysis. I can't find the video where they announced successfully done to spec, but here's one from 5 months ago discussing it whilst it was a work in progress:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gvcZ9ncDPU

More on hot section manufacturing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gD_Pv9sFWgo

Engine:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3xplTpxXYk

Gears:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1bD5ttyA4c

Based on their ability to solve every problem encountered so far, I think it would be dumb to bet against this machine. As I've said before, I'm personally happy to wear some unknown unknown's to pop up & delay things here and there, and I think it'd be unrealistic to expect it to all go perfectly, but it's not 1950 any more trying to discover all this stuff for the first time, so none of this stuff is existential risk. You can hire the right grey hairs in who have done this before and solve each problem as they're encountered. He has about 1,300 orders now, so it doesn't really matter what the peanut gallery here think. The market has spoken - they want this, and they're prepared to pay up-front, and wait.

[Phoinix]

See what I mean :) they solved a problem they presented on youtube :)

[mechpowi]

Thank you Shagpile for the info. The first video shows that they do have a production line and samples coming out of it. That's a postive thing. I still don't buy much of that second video message, that tries to make one believe that manufacturing everything in house always results in cheaper and better parts.

[206 jock]

This thread sounds like the board room of VW when Tesla came onto the scene.



Or does it sound like the sceptics who called out the promises of Onecoin, pointing out that it never even had a blockchain? Investors decided to overlook this in the hype - see how that ended.

No need to stick your bottom lip out, Shaggy. If the Hill thing works out, you can bask in the healthy glow of righteousness.

Do me a favour and answer one question though. You mention his '1300 orders'. Why are they still accepting orders? You can't possible believe the nonsense of them being able to build 500 per year anytime soon and when this thing flies, they will be able to charge double the price. Big red flag.

[hargreaves99]

1,300 orders x £50,000 deposit = £65 million

looks like this project has been a success for Hill, regardless of if anything ever flies

[admikar]

This thread sounds like the board room of VW when Tesla came onto the scene.

To answer the Q about turbine blades: they have been onto this for years now. One of the first things they did was pour the super-alloy into casts using inert gas environment (instead of vacuum) and send it off for analysis to prove out the concept. They've since done loads of casting trials using wax moulds & machining down the result & sending off for analysis. I can't find the video where they announced successfully done to spec, but here's one from 5 months ago discussing it whilst it was a work in progress:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gvcZ9ncDPU

More on hot section manufacturing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gD_Pv9sFWgo

Engine:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3xplTpxXYk

Gears:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1bD5ttyA4c

Based on their ability to solve every problem encountered so far, I think it would be dumb to bet against this machine. As I've said before, I'm personally happy to wear some unknown unknown's to pop up & delay things here and there, and I think it'd be unrealistic to expect it to all go perfectly, but it's not 1950 any more trying to discover all this stuff for the first time, so none of this stuff is existential risk. You can hire the right grey hairs in who have done this before and solve each problem as they're encountered. He has about 1,300 orders now, so it doesn't really matter what the peanut gallery here think. The market has spoken - they want this, and they're prepared to pay up-front, and wait.
Great. How come they don't have a working engine yet?
Yes, this was meant as a direct poke at you. Hillivers tend to ignore the fact that almost no one said it won't ever fly, just that timeline, performance, price claimed is a bit out of touch with reality.
So far, we are correct on timeline. Price is so-so due to all the crap in the rest of the world. Performance remains to be seen.
So, your only measure of Hill's success is number of orders, not how many are flying trouble free? Dully noted.

[hargreaves99]

Hill currently advertising for 16 engineer positions.

---

OPEN POSITIONS

CHIEF COMPOSITES ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


HEAD OF APPROVALS, CERTIFICATION & AIRWORTHINESS
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


CHIEF AIRCRAFT ENGINEER (HX-HC50)
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


SENIOR MECHANICAL DESIGN ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


COMPOSITES STRESS ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


GAS TURBINE DESIGN ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


GAS TURBINE AIR SYSTEMS ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


GAS TURBINE STRESS ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


MECHANICAL STRESS ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


COMPOSITES DESIGN ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


THERMAL/FLUID SYSTEMS ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


MECHANICAL DESIGN ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


SENIOR COMPOSITES DESIGN ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


EXPERIENCED COMPOSITES TECHNICIAN
Manufacturing
Rugeley, Staffordshire


AERODYNAMICS & CFD ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


CHIEF PROPULSION ENGINEER (GAS TURBINES)
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire

[RotorRick]

Anyone remember the Moller Sky Car?

'nuff said.

Rick

[admikar]

I do actually believe this will fly. In what form and with what specs is to be seen.

[206 jock]

Hill currently advertising for 16 engineer positions.

---

OPEN POSITIONS

CHIEF COMPOSITES ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


HEAD OF APPROVALS, CERTIFICATION & AIRWORTHINESS
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


CHIEF AIRCRAFT ENGINEER (HX-HC50)
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


SENIOR MECHANICAL DESIGN ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


COMPOSITES STRESS ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


GAS TURBINE DESIGN ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


GAS TURBINE AIR SYSTEMS ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


GAS TURBINE STRESS ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


MECHANICAL STRESS ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


COMPOSITES DESIGN ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


THERMAL/FLUID SYSTEMS ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


MECHANICAL DESIGN ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


SENIOR COMPOSITES DESIGN ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


EXPERIENCED COMPOSITES TECHNICIAN
Manufacturing
Rugeley, Staffordshire


AERODYNAMICS & CFD ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


CHIEF PROPULSION ENGINEER (GAS TURBINES)
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire
I hear that Jason Hill has applied for every position and has managed to get every one 😄.

Seriously, a lot of very critical, specialist positions; with many featuring the word 'design'. For an aircraft that is due to fly this year and be delivered in 2025......

[Steve76]

This is the same play as the ICON A5 marketing/design strategy. Plenty of hype around changing the industry with revolutionary design that isn't really that revolutionary. The ICON was supposed to be the safest sport aircraft ever built, allegedly crash proof due to the benign stall characteristics and then it went out and killed a couple of people and .... well where is it now?
Hill's biggest problem is going to be all the doctors, accountants and other owners that need to physically work on their helicopter in the factory to be able to have it remain in the sport category. I can see that being a bit of a road block.
Other comments on the SH09 seen here. I know Martin well and after they sold out to AW, the design was forced to change due to the patent infringements. Same thing happened to BELL with the skids for the 429 etc. Hill will probably have AIRBUS on his case regarding the fenestron etc?

[CGameProgrammerr]

As far as I know, the only A5 deaths were due to extremely reckless pilots and not due to the aircraft itself. And the HX50 is *not* a light sport aircraft (there's no such thing for helicopters); it's merely experimental. You do not ever go back to the factory once it's built, and most experimentals are obviously never built in a factory at all, but rather built in the owner's garage or hangar.

[PowerPedal]

Hill's biggest problem is going to be all the doctors, accountants and other owners that need to physically work on their helicopter in the factory to be able to have it remain in the sport category. I can see that being a bit of a road block.


I'm a doctor and I can't wait to go over and assemble my HX50. That is not an issue- esp for aviation enthusiasts, regardless of their day job. We would make a holiday out of it. Prob then go fly around Europe.

The biggest problem with the whole program is the decision to develop their own engine. That is the biggest risk. They should have just used an off the shelf Safran or Rolls. The only drawback would be the price which would of course be higher- probably double- but at least then we would have a proven engine with a reliable track record, and probably have the HX50 flying by now, and I would have paid a premium for that.

The other big mistake they continue to make is pushing out unrealistic timeframes. They've done this from day one, and keep doing it. And I agree with all the other posters on this forum who have been very critical of this aspect. We all know they are impossibly optimistic, this just smashes their credibility. Hill must know this too, (unless they are all cockeyed dreamy optimists which is equally bad) which can only mean they are being deliberately misleading to fill their order books, and I don't like this. Yes, great product, Jason Hill seems to be a very clever guy, and real progress gets made on a weekly basis, its exciting to get the updates, but there's just soooo much more to be done. Realistically I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s the end of the decade before I get delivery of my aircraft (serial number in the first 200). And of course there's always a real chance it never eventuates.

[ShyTorque]

I sincerely hope that you do get your helicopter.

But my concern is that the way this is going has so many similarities to a three wheeled car project that was supposedly going to revolutionise low cost personal transport in the USA. Although there were a number of prototypes built, no production cars were ever made and everyone lost their deposit. All the depositors ever got was a bumper sticker and at best a tee shirt with a picture of the car. I considered buying a car if and when they were built but wasn’t prepared to pay up front for a place on the waiting list, simply because I could see the risks. I certainly made the right decision. The deposits seem to have been spent largely on staff salaries.

I can’t help thinking that this aircraft could be called the “Eliocopter”.

[PowerPedal]

I sincerely hope that you do get your helicopter.

The deposits seem to have been spent largely on staff salaries.

I can’t help thinking that this aircraft could be called the “Eliocopter”.

There’s a very real possibility of this! And the deposit holders have knowingly gone into it with eyes open.

Nonetheless, and unlike in the automotive industry, the concept of HX50 has many merits in an industry that has become exorbitantly expensive and has turned its back on private owners. If HX50 fails then I believe this will only get worse. My deposit is as much about supporting industry change as it is about getting a helicopter. In the meantime I’ll keep flying my EC120 and tuning in to the monthly updates!

[admikar]

PowerPedal, I think you are the first buyer of this helicopter that has publicly acknowledged issues at hand. I'm sure you talk a lot about this among yourselves (other buyers), but maintain Omerta codex in public.

[hargreaves99]

It will be interesting to see how long people keep piling money into this project when the engine is not built/run/tested, and nothing is flying.

At some point people will realise the timescales are not going to be met. The Hill website STILL says deliveries are starting in 2025. Is this deliberate so they get more deposits? Or is it just a case of them forgetting to update the website?

Although people "want to believe" and I guess a £50,000 punt on a helicopter is small change to a lot of people.

[VM325]

I sincerely hope that you do get your helicopter.

But my concern is that the way this is going has so many similarities to a three wheeled car project that was supposedly going to revolutionise low cost personal transport in the USA. Although there were a number of prototypes built, no production cars were ever made and everyone lost their deposit. All the depositors ever got was a bumper sticker and at best a tee shirt with a picture of the car. I considered buying a car if and when they were built but wasn’t prepared to pay up front for a place on the waiting list, simply because I could see the risks. I certainly made the right decision. The deposits seem to have been spent largely on staff salaries.

I can’t help thinking that this aircraft could be called the “Eliocopter”.

At least Hill has events every few weeks to explain what he's doing and you can see where the money's going.
If this was a scam, why bother?
Has Elio invited cameras into his premises every month?

[206 jock]

At least Hill has events every few weeks to explain what he's doing and you can see where the money's going.
If this was a scam, why bother?
Has Elio invited cameras into his premises every month?
Personally, I don't think it is a scam: Jason Hill went into this believing that it's acheivable.

I reckon I'm a passably good businessman but haven't the first idea about engineering: if I wanted to get into an engineering project, I would find the right people to surround myself with. But JH seems to think the marketing and money side is simple: keep the order book open, gather thousands of deposits and use that money to design and engineer an all-new helicopter. It's probably about now that it's starting to become clear to him that the first 50% (making some mock ups and getting some lovely machinery in place) is easy, but the final 50% is really, really difficult.

And soon initial depositors will start to become restless. Delivery has shifted back three years already and honestly, there's no sign of the machine flying or the fantasy build volume being acheived.

(It probably doesn't help that if you do a Google search for Hill HX 50, this thread appears on page 1!)

[RotorRick]

206 Jock,

Well said!

Rick

[212man]

I guess, in fairness, the Bell 525 and AW609 are not exactly hitting their predicted targets either!

[Jetexec]

I do actually believe this will fly. In what form and with what specs is to be seen.


I agree, and I can agree with with some of what was said by both camps previously. Is there some optimism in the delivery, possibly, but I have seen this with almost every aircraft manufacturer before Hill. In my mind, that's OK, I'll fly what I have in the meantime. To wait a little longer to get the bugs worked out is quite "all right" to me.

To address an earlier comment regarding the insinuation that Jason should have taken an existing Jet Turbine engine and stuffed it under the hood may have been an option, but to achieve the aerodynamics (engine positioning) and cost range, that wasn't achievable. I always tell skeptics that my Rolls Royce in my 407 was designed in a smoke-filled room with overflowing ashtrays while engineers gripped their slide rulers to calculate dimensions. I don't believe that the creation of a new engine is so 'genius' anymore. It does take some skillset, but in reality, it isn't splitting an atom.

[Hughes500]

Let's be fair here a gas turbine isnt exactly a new concept !

[PEASACAKE]

Hughes500

You said previously "A gas turbine is not rocket science, it is a simple engine and been around 60 years !"

It may be simple but progress seems to be very slow.

[212man]

Hughes500

You said previously "A gas turbine is not rocket science, it is a simple engine and been around 60 years !"

It may be simple but progress seems to be very slow.
60? And the rest…..

[ShyTorque]

At least Hill has events every few weeks to explain what he's doing and you can see where the money's going.
If this was a scam, why bother?
Has Elio invited cameras into his premises every month?

I never claimed that it was a scam. Same with the Elio.

[CGameProgrammerr]

It's not just designing a new engine, it's manufacturing one. Everything has to be done VERY precisely, including the metallurgy. I understand why he's trying for maximum vertical integration but I worry the engine will kill the entire project. I think he should have commissioned a custom engine from an existing engine manufacturer, like Robinson did with the RR300 (it was not off-the-shelf; it was made specifically for the R66), which has a high cost but is low-risk because they already know how to make engines and have all the hard stuff done already.

[PowerPedal]

PowerPedal, I think you are the first buyer of this helicopter that has publicly acknowledged issues at hand. I'm sure you talk a lot about this among yourselves (other buyers), but maintain Omerta codex in public.

there were a lot of direct questions at this weeks AMA about the timelines and production volumes. As more people put down deposits (now around 1300), Hill are being held more and more accountable. As they should be. The forgiveness for missing stated deadlines seems to be wearing off

[Agile]

It's not just designing a new engine, it's manufacturing one. Everything has to be done VERY precisely, including the metallurgy. I understand why he's trying for maximum vertical integration but I worry the engine will kill the entire project. I think he should have commissioned a custom engine from an existing engine manufacturer, like Robinson did with the RR300 (it was not off-the-shelf; it was made specifically for the R66), which has a high cost but is low-risk because they already know how to make engines and have all the hard stuff done already.
All good points, I think no reputable engine supplier would engage working with Hill on a joint development, they have become more and more liability shy, and potential hungry.
We have seen the airframe, we have seen the transmission, we have seen the rotor head I think the confidence factor on that is passing even though the last 10% will take 90% of the effort.

it reminds me what the sponsor said to Tiger Woods when he had reputation troubles: they said "just win and everything will be forgiven"
Same for Hill "just make it fly, make the engine work, and everything will be forgiven"

[jeepys]

All good points, I think no reputable engine supplier would engage working with Hill on a joint development, they have become more and more liability shy, and potential hungry.
We have seen the airframe, we have seen the transmission, we have seen the rotor head I think the confidence factor on that is passing even though the last 10% will take 90% of the effort.

it reminds me what the sponsor said to Tiger Woods when he had reputation troubles: they said "just win and everything will be forgiven"
Same for Hill "just make it fly, make the engine work, and everything will be forgiven"

I must have missed it but you say there is a 'working' transmission and rotor head. Is that on a you tube clip at all? Don't forget the blades as these will need to be more than just basic if the speeds and weights can be safely flown.

[admikar]

there were a lot of direct questions at this weeks AMA about the timelines and production volumes. As more people put down deposits (now around 1300), Hill are being held more and more accountable. As they should be. The forgiveness for missing stated deadlines seems to be wearing off
And what were the answers?

[PowerPedal]

And what were the answers?

Nothing really new. JH seems to be now getting more reluctant to give firm timelines (sensible), stating the main focus is getting the engine running by the end of the year, then having flying prototypes for testing all next year. In terms of production, they now have leased a reasonably large factory that needs to be completely fitted out, Production Centre 1, which they intend to consolidate their existing 3 separate facilities into, and start fabricating the prototypes.

They will then seek out a further Production Centre once they go into full scale production, and still claim to be on track to start churning them out in 2026 (improbable), with 475 units forecast to be made in the first year of production (again highly improbable). When pressed about why JH thinks he can churn out nearly 500 units per year, scaling up to 1000 per year, when other established helicopter manufacturers only make 100-300 units each year, he responded that manufacturers produce to match their demand, and that because he already knows there are 1,300 orders (likely many more once prototypes start flying), he will set up the factories to make 500 per year from the start. He is quite firm in his opinion that this number is not a particularly difficult number to achieve per year, and points to Robinson having made nearly 900 units in one of their early years (from a smaller factory than his) and Toyota making 13 million cars per year.

His confidence is somewhat convincing, and he does come with some pedigree given his background owning several engineering businesses with a good track record of delivering results, but this is a whole different ballgame.

[Hot and Hi]

Try read the body language in this update and compare to previous ones.

[wrench1]

I'm a doctor and I can't wait to go over and assemble my HX50. That is not an issue- esp for aviation enthusiasts, regardless of their day job.
I think this is the attitude of a large number of HX50 depositors from what I've learned. I know two people who have made deposits, where both are also current helicopter (piston) owners and non-aviation industry professionals. Both are also very involved in the maintenance of their aircraft (R44/B47) and are looking forward to being able to handle all the 50 mx requirements on their own or with minimal assistance from myself or other mechanics/shops.

From their point of view, they fully understand what Hill is attempting to do in developing a 100% new version of an old idea from a clean sheet of paper as they have similar experiences of the same methods in their respective industries. They also believe keeping every aspect of the 50’s design and production in-house will be the key in the long run vs relying on 3rd party vendors for components and sub-assemblies even if it ends up creating delays.

I believe once the previous Kopter expanded its reliance on outside products and articles it was the beginning of the slide that led to Leonardo buying it. It would have been interesting if Kopter had elected to pursue an E/AB version first, then worked into a certified version as Hill is doing.

Regardless, having a new, larger turbine helicopter enter the E/AB market where the popular models are the much smaller turbine Mosquito and Helicycle, it has generated a lot more interest than I thought would happen especially from existing TC turbine rotorcraft owners.

[PEASACAKE]

[QUOTE=wrench1;11617239]I think this is the attitude of a large number of HX50 depositors from what I've learned. I know two people who have made deposits, where both are also current helicopter (piston) owners and non-aviation industry professionals. Both are also very involved in the maintenance of their aircraft (R44/B47) and are looking forward to being able to handle all the 50 mx requirements on their own or with minimal assistance from myself or other mechanics/shops.


Personally I dread to think of the consequences of owners maintaining their own HX50 (non mechanically minded or trained). Having been an aviation engineer since 1976, certifying for over 40 years on numerous types from basic to complex, I can only see problems arising.

Most of the younger men I know cannot even do basic maintenance on the car they are driving, even adjusting tyre pressures is to much for them , and this is a fairly complex Helicopter.

I have seen many results of bad (and / or not recorded) owner maintenance, its sends shivers down my spine even thinking of it. How many times have I experienced a "trained" pilot drain a hot piston engine of oil, then forget to refill (due to being distracted) before starting the engine up............oops.

Would not purchase a used car without full service history by a reputable garage, never mind a helicopter.

Anyway enough ranting on, just my experience of owner maintenance with bent screwdrivers, worn out adjustable spanners and reusing old splitpins.

[PowerPedal]

[QUOTE=wrench1;11617239]

Personally I dread to think of the consequences of owners maintaining their own HX50 (non mechanically minded or trained). Having been an aviation engineer since 1976, certifying for over 40 years on numerous types from basic to complex, I can only see problems arising.


just a clarification here- HX50 owners/pilots are not allowed do their own maintainence any more than replenish fluids etc just as per existing regulations.True, they’ve got to technically “build” 51% of the aircraft as part of the stupid rules relating to the experimental classification, however there are a whole stack of items including Engines, avionics , gearboxes etc are exempt. To meet this requirement, owners must do n in-house 2 week build school in which they will be involved in supervised final assembly of their aircraft. Then they do 3-5hrs endorsement flight training. Once the aircraft has been completed it must be maintained by licensed aircraft engineers as per normal practice.

[hargreaves99]

scaling up to 1000 per year

not a hope in hell

[wrench1]

Once the aircraft has been completed it must be maintained by licensed aircraft engineers as per normal practice.
That may be the case in your country, but in the US any aircraft issued an experimental certificate the maintenance requirements found in FAR Part 43 and Part 91 are not applicable. As such, there is no requirement to use certified mechanics to perform any maintenance or most inspections on those aircraft.

Where the required maintenance/inspection requirements are listed for an experimental, amateur-built aircraft in the US are on the Operating Limitations which are issued as part of the airworthiness certificate. And generally, those requirements are simply an annual Condition Inspection by either the builder of record, or an A&P if the owner is not the builder.

And while Hill is recommending the use of certified mechanic, in my experience there are plenty of owners who could be up to the task themselves based on the projected mx requirements of the HX50. Regardless, there is a big regulatory difference when working on an E/AB vs a TC’d aircraft.

I don’t follow the E/AB rules much outside the US, but perhaps in respect to your country, contact Hill support or your local CAA office and see if you as the builder of record could legally work on the aircraft? I believe with some countries, they follow a similar route as with the FAA in the US.

Anyway enough ranting on, just my experience of owner maintenance with bent screwdrivers, worn out adjustable spanners and reusing old splitpins.
While I agree there are bad owners, I’ve found its more driven by their attitude than their skill levels. I was involved with owner-assisted maintenance as a side business on both airplanes and rotorcraft for many years. So my experience is a bit different at least in the US.

But, from what I’ve seen and been told, I think the caliber of owner attracted to the HX50 is closer to the top shelf than the bottom of the barrel variety and they will keep their aircraft properly maintained to include the two potential HX50 owners I know. But that’s just my take.

[jellycopter]

peasacake

I have seen many results of bad (and / or not recorded) owner maintenance, its sends shivers down my spine even thinking of it. How many times have I experienced a "trained" pilot drain a hot piston engine of oil, then forget to refill (due to being distracted) before starting the engine up............oops[/QUOTE]

And I’ve seen many results of professional maintainers committing similar sins:-

Running a 300CBi without oil and writing off the engine
Not tightening the tail rotor drive shaft spline pin on E480
All fastenings loose on top of an E480 rotor head
Countless tools left in engine bays/transmission decks
Loose bolts on combustion chamber of Ariel after Turbomeca overhaul
Bolt anti-locked on brand new AS350
Chafing oil pipe on same brand new AS350
Lack of split pin on AS350 hydraulic servo retention bolt.
plus multiple more that don’t immediately spring to mind

Apart from the 300CBi at the top of the list, these were all my own finds in aircraft released for flight/ground run. Going to a ‘pro’ maintenance organization, or even OEM doesn’t guarantee anything.

[HeliHenri]

.
A long and very interesting interview of Jason Hill for those who want to understand the HX50 project and the motivations of Jason :
Vertical Magazine (https://issues.verticalmag.com/554/766/1745/V23I1/index.html?page=46&_gl=1*13orf6m*_ga*MjU5NTU2OTk0LjE3MTA3ODMzNjY.*_ga_L93W1ECVS 6*MTcxMDc4MzM2Ni4xLjEuMTcxMDc4MzM2OS4wLjAuMA..)
.

[hargreaves99]

Only 8 months to wait then.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/482x314/1_4ff86bcf686b0d9267c981759054c9b1a0003cf9.jpg

[Radgirl]

Originally Posted by PowerPedal
I'm a doctor and I can't wait to go over and assemble my HX50. That is not an issue- esp for aviation enthusiasts, regardless of their day job.

Hmmm. I see doctors making these comments on a regular basis.....'I am really confident I can do this operation.....'

What could possibly go wrong

[admikar]

Hmmm. I see doctors making these comments on a regular basis.....'I am really confident I can do this operation.....'

What could possibly go wrong
Bonanza?

[212man]

Bonanza?
You beat me to it!

For those not familiar with the reference - https://generalaviationnews.com/2017/03/29/the-doctor-killer/

[206 jock]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1378x1177/hill_2f9832a55c8b1e918e46891d7131979e4072fbdd.png
An interesting perspective...

[SansAnhedral]

Where are the real blades? And the blade tooling?

[RVDT]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1378x1177/hill_2f9832a55c8b1e918e46891d7131979e4072fbdd.png
An interesting perspective...

I think Airbus fixed wing had the same philosophy which promoted the cases of "What's it doing now?"

[mechpowi]

I've no experience with AB fixed wing products, but I find their modern rotary wing AFCS automation and protections very intuitive and helpful. That said they are mostly helpful in marginal weather, IFR and category A operations, where a private single engine helicopter pilot should never be. I admit that having several simulator sessions in a year helps to mitigate that "what's it doing" phenomenom.

I've also little exeperince with light helicopters with a SAS and a 3 axis autopilot, and I would argue that an altitude hold alone frees a lot of capacity of an inexperienced pilot when things start to go wrong. But that is of course not an excuse to not develop adequate hands on flying skills.

[Agile]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1378x1177/hill_2f9832a55c8b1e918e46891d7131979e4072fbdd.png
An interesting perspective...

If you are going to to hop from garden to garden, you will need confined area landing practice, a lot of it, the 5S (size, shape, surface, slope, and surrounds), your power check, your escape plan, + good set of eyes so you don't chop anything out (poles, branches...)
what is the autopilot and digital cockpit going to do for you? likely just give the private owner a false sense of confidence. "you will be able to get in and out without undue skills" he says, that is stupid talk, that type of thinking will get your experimental airframe in the news for the wrong reasons.

[Oggi]

Hopping from flower to flower & being able to get in & out without undue skills? Not sure if I fully understand this. But I know for sure I would not want to use an autopilot for that type of operation.

[hargreaves99]

Most private owners who are in the "cheaper" end of ownership (R44, R66, B206, Gazelle etc) are petty crap at any kind of planning or risk assessment and invariably don't listen to "advice" (eg the weather is crap, maybe you shouldn't fly?). The advent of the ipad/Skydemon has made this situation worse. ie plug the route in and follow the pink line, easy.

I dread to think what these kind of people will get up to ("hopping" from confined area to confined area) in the HX50, if the whole philosophy of the aircraft is that "automation will help you" if you have "undue skill"

[DroneDog]

The technology already exists and is on the market, Tesla.the ability to maneuver almost two tonnes of the car around a town center, following poorly marked roads, pedestrians, and other road users or cruising on busy motorways. An autopilot system based on this tech is not too far of a stretch, and dare I say, it should be a lesser challenge.

[hargreaves99]

The difference is a Tesla doesn't start spinning and go out of control very quickly if you fill too many seats or if you drive down a road with a tailwind.

[DroneDog]

It's a time of change for us all; AI is coming on strong. Cars already know how many occupants are in the vehicle; some can determine their weight via seat sensors. The craft will know its payload and weather before it even lifts off. Look at drone technology today. I feel it will give the industry a badly needed boost.
Automation will come, but I see an even greater need for professional pilots; no one wants automation in complete control on commercial flights, but it might make a huge difference safety-wise for the private pilot.

[hargreaves99]

The craft will know its payload and weather before it even lifts off


Yeah, err, all private sites have their own 100% reliable weather station, which also knows about the gazebo right next to the landing site, and the wind which is 180 degrees different when you get there.

etc

[wrench1]

Most private owners who are in the "cheaper" end of ownership (R44, R66, B206, Gazelle etc) are petty crap at any kind of planning or risk assessment and invariably don't listen to "advice" (eg the weather is crap, maybe you shouldn't fly?).
Interesting. Most of the “cheap” private owners I’ve worked for are quite the opposite. Maybe its location dependent? While I agree there are some owners who play by their own rules, there is an equal percentage of “expensive” private owners as well a few commercial operators who operate in the same manner you mention.

Will some of those "know-it-all" type owners end up in a HX50? Sure. But from what I’ve seen and heard, I think the majority of them will be on top of their game with all facets of the aircraft to include its maintenance. Hill is offering an opportunity that never really existed before in the rotor world. And if his method works, I think it will have a larger effect on private aircraft ownership regardless of aircraft type.

[SWBKCB]

The craft will know its payload and weather The craft will know its payload and weather before it even lifts off.

Wow - it knows the weather before it even lifts off.?! Where can I get one of those? At my airfield the wind direction and speed can change four times before I taxi to the end of the runway...

[admikar]

It's a time of change for us all; AI is coming on strong. Cars already know how many occupants are in the vehicle; some can determine their weight via seat sensors. The craft will know its payload and weather before it even lifts off. Look at drone technology today. I feel it will give the industry a badly needed boost.
Automation will come, but I see an even greater need for professional pilots; no one wants automation in complete control on commercial flights, but it might make a huge difference safety-wise for the private pilot.
Maybe we should start implementing those awesome features in cargo industry before testing on meat bags?

[Mee3]

the weight sensing is definitely doable. your home washing machine for example have them and last years without maintenance. But for airworthiness sake, it will be another PITA period FT. Keeps the b2 in the work force tho.

[admikar]

One thing you keep missing is that every gadget you add eats load.
It doesn't matter in car or washing machine, but it definitely matters in a mode of already not so efficient transport.

[Mee3]

if you look at how light twins and now the light singles have been "adding mtow", by merely switching all the steam gauges, individual equipment boxes and analog computers into 2 redundant do it all LRUs and a bunch of sensors. these weight sensor will barely add a distributed kg. well within an error of margin of a robust ass. but i do think the convenient may not worth the effort both to make it reliable enough and the routine inspection mh.

[DroneDog]

Don't shoot the messenger; this stuff is already under development. There is an R44 test rig in existence demonstrating autonomous flying skyryse (https://www.skyryse.com/)

The automotive industry already has a suite of car sensors measuring everything from speed and attitude to passenger occupancy and weight, mainly for safety systems, airbags, etc. The electronics are incredibly reliable, cheap, small, and lightweight. I watched a video about a Bell 505 in which the pilot entered the weights of his passengers into another Garmin; this can be done automatically.
For 2-3k, you can buy a DJI drone with 360-degree obstacle avoidance. Let one loose in a forest, and it's impressive to watch how it navigates its way through trees and branches, all in a cheap package. You can already plot a flight path on the ground on a mobile phone or tablet, upload it, and the drone will fly it; the drone's onboard obstacle avoidance ensures no crashes if you get it wrong.


Crystal Ball Time, the next systems for PPL, will offer an autopilot for flying at altitude and augmented pilot help for low-level flying, landing, etc. It's not really flying using piloting skills but rather similar to controlling a drone. The owner will nudge the cyclic in the direction they wish to go, and the onboard electronics will do all of the hard work.
I still believe the need for professional pilots will increase for commercial operations; Businesses will insist on having trained and certified meat sacs in control and command.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Dronedog - the key difference between a drone and a helicopter is if the drone gets it wrong, generally no one dies. The barrier to entry in "approved for flight" software outside the experimental class is the requirement to test ad infinitum, which plays havoc with a standard software development cycle. Something like automated obstacle avoidance, while "easy" in drone world, and certainly not impossible in helicopter world, is going to be far from cheap for a passenger carrying aircraft.

Note that the sophisticated R66 mod produced by Skryse is priced at 1.8 million USD for early adopters (and I'd imagine in line with Hill that'll go up later) Source (https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/skyryse-one-begins-new-era-of-simpler-safer-aviation-302066934.html#:~:text=Our%20first%20customers%20will%20lock ,customizations%20selected%20by%20the%20customer.)

That's basically double the price of the standard airframe.
​​​​

[[email protected]]

I've been away for a couple of weeks - is the engine running yet? Is anything likely to happen before the end of the year? Are people still believing their money has been well spent? - asking for a friend:)

[DroneDog]

Dronedog - the key difference between a drone and a helicopter is if the drone gets it wrong, generally no one dies. The barrier to entry in "approved for flight" software outside the experimental class is the requirement to test ad infinitum, which plays havoc with a standard software development cycle. Something like automated obstacle avoidance, while "easy" in drone world, and certainly not impossible in helicopter world, is going to be far from cheap for a passenger carrying aircraft.

Note that the sophisticated R66 mod produced by Skryse is priced at 1.8 million USD for early adopters (and I'd imagine in line with Hill that'll go up later) Source (https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/skyryse-one-begins-new-era-of-simpler-safer-aviation-302066934.html#:~:text=Our%20first%20customers%20will%20lock ,customizations%20selected%20by%20the%20customer.)

That's basically double the price of the standard airframe.
​​​​

All of the above is true, my point being that the technology already exists to do this, and there are a number of companies working on fully or semi-autonomous flight systems. I am sure the CAA and FAA will severely restrict such a system but other countries with lax regulations will not.

https://www.ehang.com/ehangaav
https://www.aurora.aero/autonomy/
https://www.volocopter.com/en/
https://lilium.com/
etc

[CGameProgrammerr]

A month ago Mischa apparently uploaded a very informative pilot-oriented walkthrough of the pre-production prototype on his channel, which I never knew about until just now and don't think was linked here yet.

https://youtu.be/zlLTz1p19DQ?si=qA0afMIU3sPO17tm

[Ascend Charlie]

Hmmm... I am almost turning from total disbelief to almost thinking that it might happen. But when?

One statement of interest was that it will hover at MAUW OGE at 10,000' with up to a 35kt tailwind. Not bad for a single-spool turbine which doesn't exist yet.

[212man]

Hmmm... I am almost turning from total disbelief to almost thinking that it might happen. But when?

One statement of interest was that it will hover at MAUW OGE at 10,000' with up to a 35kt tailwind. Not bad for a single-spool turbine which doesn't exist yet.

Hovering with a 35 kt tailwind isn’t hovering!

[mechpowi]

According to that video the engine is to have a 30 seconds power rating (500 hp) above the take off power rating of 440 hp. Are there any other single engine helicopters with a 30 sec power rating? If there are, what kind of (take off and landing) procedures there are that use that rating?

[206Fan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWxqD_IRXdI&t=262s

[hargreaves99]

I hear quite a few people are selling their 'slots' in the production queue now.

[Bravo73]

I hear quite a few people are selling their 'slots' in the production queue now.

Wasn’t that always the point for lots of them?

[[email protected]]

Hmmm... I am almost turning from total disbelief to almost thinking that it might happen. But when?

One statement of interest was that it will hover at MAUW OGE at 10,000' with up to a 35kt tailwind. Not bad for a single-spool turbine which doesn't exist yet.

The rotor disc doesn't care which way the wind is blowing - 'hovering' with 35 kts of wind is the same as flying at 35 kts which will be much lower on the power required curve - pointless claim really.

[hargreaves99]

https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/157371-hovering-downwind.html

In Robinsons, in my experience, it takes more power to hover downwind, than it does when into wind.

[[email protected]]

https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/157371-hovering-downwind.html

In Robinsons, in my experience, it takes more power to hover downwind, than it does when into wind.
It's only the twitchiness of the tail causing you to make constant corrections that saps any power downwind - the main rotor is unaffected except for a possible slight ingestion of TR vortices.

I presume you are talking only about R22 and 44 - the piston engines may suffer a little from less than perfect airflow into the engine when downwind.

[toptobottom]

Wasn’t that always the point for lots of them?
Selling for more, or less?

[hargreaves99]

I think if you have a build number under 100 you would have definitely made money on your deposit, especially as Jason has promised that deliveries will start next year.

[toptobottom]

I think if you have a build number under 100 you would have definitely made money on your deposit, especially as Jason has promised that deliveries will start next year.

What’s that based on - your personal view? My belief is that Jason has already failed to deliver on a number of ‘promises’ and I’m of the opinion that there are many more to come…

Aren’t these “sell my place in the queue” more to do with lack of confidence than speculation on capital return?

[admikar]

I guess we don't know which one it is at this point. If the word about pricing of those slots comes out, then we can make an opinion.

[206 jock]

I think if you have a build number under 100 you would have definitely made money on your deposit, especially as Jason has promised that deliveries will start next year.
Reminds me of my favourite movie...https://youtu.be/aplSQGHPmvI?si=MG27ydKzhMdHqVx5

[hargreaves99]

Given Hill has over 1,200 orders for the HX50/HC50, Bell/Robinson must have lost some orders to them. I would love to know what Bell/Robinson think about that.

[toptobottom]

Given Hill has over 1,200 orders for the HX50/HC50, Bell/Robinson must have lost some orders to them. I would love to know what Bell/Robinson think about that.

No prizes for guessing what they think about that..! 😆

[jellycopter]

I just watched the latest monthly update and ‘Ask me anything’ Q&A on YouTube. Recently, I’ve been following updates quite closely. I’m hugely impressed with everything the Hill team are achieving. Having had quite a lot of experience in the non-certified end of the market (Rotorway), there’s simply no comparison with the proposed Hill offering.

Like most, I have a healthy degree of scepticism about time lines and production numbers. However, I have every confidence it’s going to happen, and it’s going to be very good indeed.

JJ

[jeepys]

Given Hill has over 1,200 orders for the HX50/HC50, Bell/Robinson must have lost some orders to them. I would love to know what Bell/Robinson think about that.

Given that Hill owns a 66, I expect there will be questions!!!

[212man]

Given that Hill owns a 66, I expect there will be questions!!!
From who? He can’t own a machine that doesn’t exist yet.

[Ant T]

From who? He can’t own a machine that doesn’t exist yet.

Presumably jeepys means a Robinson R66, according to wiki there have been over 1000 built…

[wrench1]

I would love to know what Bell/Robinson think about that.
From what I've heard not much with the HX version. However, once the HC certified model is released Robbie might watch it but that wont happen for a while, if it happens at all.

As to the selling of production slots, not much to read into it. Happens on the TC side as well. Know one original slot owner and one guy who bought a resell slot after Dec show.

[212man]

Presumably jeepys means a Robinson R66, according to wiki there have been over 1000 built…
I know what a 66 is, I was curious who will ask the questions. I read it as his customers, but maybe it meant Robinson.

[Shagpile]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWxqD_IRXdI&t=2s

For those who don't want to watch 2hrs:
- 1289 orders
- expanded team into production and certification/approval
- Engine:
- About to cut first 4 impellers. Production strategies done
- HP turbine disc done, being measured. NDT/quality (X-ray, measuring, etc) underway.
- turbine blades continuing work on processes; in the thick of it. Basically up to casting strategies (cooling rates, etc) and casting analysis samples for testing alongside blades.
- Super alloy main engine casing casting process wip.
- gears & drivetrain components (shafts) making the rest of the bits. Gears exceed spec so they're going to cut more weight out of them.
- injectors: combustion test rig wip on flame shape improvements. More needed. Lots of detail on the effort required to get to here.
- starter/generator: in the thick of it, released most parts to production to make 5 of them. High speed test device commissioned.
- Airframe/composites: prototype (production) new set of moulds for flying prototypes, using lessons learned from fuselages last year.
- Lots of detail on firewall tests to choose final solution for flight prototypes
- Paint shop work (booths, equipment)
- Digital cockpit: discussion on some UI experiments from first principles to look at various VSI, Airspeed ideas. Night tests.
- Production facility: almost finished digging out & cementing slab for gantry mill (which requires special slab for precision). Gantry mill installed in ~1 month.
- electrics/lights, cabling in. Cement foundations outdoor done. Paint floor, environmental controls coming. Will take a while to move all development centre machines in & recalibrated.

[hargreaves99]

I would love to know what decade customer number 1,289 is getting their aircraft

[CGameProgrammerr]

Sooner than customer #1290 which is what matters. Also they're funding its development, significantly increasing the likelihood of getting the helicopter at all. People buy Vans kits and don't get to fly it for 10+ years. Instead of focusing on delivery, let's focus on milestones. If they can get an engine completed and running reliably on a test bed this year, I think that would be fantastic.

[homonculus]

Instead of focusing on delivery, let's focus on milestones

I thought this was supposed to be a production company not a vanity project. Customers put down hard cash to buy a product with a defined delivery time. As a commercial venture to date it is a failure. Lets hope for the best.

[jellycopter]

I thought this was supposed to be a production company not a vanity project. Customers put down hard cash to buy a product with a defined delivery time. As a commercial venture to date it is a failure. Lets hope for the best.
£39 million in non-refundable deposits hardly seems like a commercial failure.

[Pittsextra]

Sooner than customer #1290 which is what matters. Also they're funding its development, significantly increasing the likelihood of getting the helicopter at all. People buy Vans kits and don't get to fly it for 10+ years. Instead of focusing on delivery, let's focus on milestones. If they can get an engine completed and running reliably on a test bed this year, I think that would be fantastic.

With VANS filing chapter 11 recently I’m not sure if your choice is deliberate but it likely shows the scale of challenge and why there are sceptical noises

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2024/april/03/vans-presents-plan-to-climb-out-of-bankruptcy

[Shagpile]

I think it's not fair to compare these. Vans was running its inventory management from an excel spreadsheet. Clearly not a well run business, despite having a great aircraft and strong sales.

[Pittsextra]

I think it's not fair to compare these. Vans was running its inventory management from an excel spreadsheet. Clearly not a well run business, despite having a great aircraft and strong sales.

and I think you have illustrated the point very well. I don’t know the detail of either VANS aircraft or Hill Helicopters but what I do know very well is that an order book doesn’t necessarily mean or count for much. Selling £10 for £5 will lead to an unhappy end at some point as will other poor business management / administration. Access to capital just gives you a longer piece of rope. From a business perspective the advisors of Hill will at some point suggest - hey why not leverage the healthy order book and sell to a (likely larger entity) new Co. that has the painful task of making all the new stuff work. I’ll have a pound with you that no customer aircraft is in UK skies (and I was going to write 2030) but actually more likely ever still let’s say 2030 at least one of us might collect the quid then!

[hargreaves99]

I think he will get something in the air, ie a hover, in late 2025, then "production will start", and loads more people will give him £50,000 and it will carry on. Kerching.

[[email protected]]

£39 million in non-refundable deposits hardly seems like a commercial failure.
Depends on how much he has paid out in R and D plus all his other costs.

[Pittsextra]

I think he will get something in the air, ie a hover, in late 2025, then "production will start", and loads more people will give him £50,000 and it will carry on. Kerching.

All joking aside what is the timeline the company is running to?

[hargreaves99]

Jason Hill, and the website, is still saying deliveries start in 2025.


https://www.hillhelicopters.com/faq?id=when-helicopters-available

(No running engine yet)