Hill Helicopters HX50

[hargreaves99]

4 days to go until the big reveal at Duxford...

[admikar]

4 days to go until the big reveal at Duxford...
Are you going? I,sorry, we want full report.

[chopper2004]

Are you going? I,sorry, we want full report.

i am back from Madrid so will be goign if it is still happening.

cheers

[Hughes500]

I hear that Crab will be there doing a presentation ?

[hargreaves99]

I think you mean CRAN?

[Hughes500]

Could be a comedy duo ?

[Hughes500]

Hargreaves you dont get it !!!!

[Bell_ringer]

I hear that Crab will be there doing a presentation ?

He is presenting a session on keeping pies fresh while in long-term cryogenic storage :E

[admikar]

TBH, I am interested to see what will be shown.
One thing I am hopping for is test bed engine run.

[yakyakyakyak]

Saw a picture of the Metallic Green Duxford example in the paint shop on the 20th November.
Just a carbon painted shell on jacks.
Thought there looked quite a bit to do in 6 weeks.
Be interesting to see what is exhibited.

[hargreaves99]

If he had an engine running by now he would be shouting it from the rooftops.

[revit]

If he had an engine running by now he would be shouting it from the rooftops.

From what I picked up on in a previous update, they are holding back on large progress updates until the December event. Time will tell.

Best of luck to them; it’s in any case admirable to see someone attempt to shake things up and have a go at a different approach. It takes a lot to put yourself out there and open yourself up to the inevitable criticism.

[chopper2004]

I've filled in the form below, so how many of us on here will.<br /><br /><a href="https://www.hillhelicopters.com/gmde">https://www.hillhelicopters.com/gmde</a><br /><br />cheers

https://scontent-lhr8-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/407946476_10161755682931490_9169697664320514451_n.jpg?stp=cp 6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=3635dc&_nc_ohc=VTdqo-0rzmkAX8g-9t_&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr8-1.xx&oh=00_AfB2HQGztUwG8-9kRrS28SHHH1KQhbdo89WIWNcBIc43kw&oe=657486DC

[CGameProgrammerr]

Please take a bunch of photos tomorrow and post them here. I'm sure even the cynics would be very interested.

[hargreaves99]

The day will be unforgettable as you'll witness a landmark moment – the grand reveal of the first HX50.

Step into the future as you explore this groundbreaking aircraft, experience the plush comfort of the luxurious interior, and behold the advanced Hill Digital Cockpit. Be a part of this exciting milestone in aviation history.

[CGameProgrammerr]

Yes I'm sure it'll be a full-scale mockup essentially with no engine or gearbox, probably no rotors, but still interesting. Hopefully they've made good progress towards creating an engine.

[VM325]

Yes I'm sure it'll be a full-scale mockup essentially with no engine or gearbox, probably no rotors, but still interesting. Hopefully they've made good progress towards creating an engine.

Nope, definately no gearbox or rotors...

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1600x2000/407963965_1068424391197394_7936941109335242184_n_c8c0d7bc121 f09d7ec8e6df8b862ce50f81be5e8.jpg
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[Bell_ringer]

Nope, definately no gearbox or rotors...


Call me old fashioned, isn't a gearbox conventionally attached to the airframe?
Sure, blades would be removed for travel, but are they assembling an aircraft onsite or is the transmission part of a static display?

[chopper2004]

https://scontent-lhr8-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/408793001_10161757355966490_7171639118251601143_n.jpg?stp=cp 6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_ohc=TPZISM2gFuUAX8bVnHy&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr8-1.xx&oh=00_AfDVnnhVj9Av3wN8xSLmaPrGt_ZpX64m9i2ne0vUZavP9g&oe=657665B3

[hargreaves99]

Crab - best hit "Defrost"?

[FloaterNorthWest]

Sweepstake on the number of patent challenges Hill are going to receive?

The two idiot presenters are adding nothing to the credibility of the project.

[chopper2004]

https://scontent-lhr8-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/407768933_10161757439121490_2708480058950303397_n.jpg?stp=cp 6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_ohc=WgnCNEPKF5UAX-Qj2L1&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr8-1.xx&oh=00_AfDPr_YOn7vT4WU6eph24DWokjFn25JkdlKS5-gVGqGXJA&oe=6574F10C
https://scontent-lhr6-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/408890858_10161757445991490_5422278248602191609_n.jpg?stp=cp 6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_ohc=ltHVdKZKtBsAX9pbWoF&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr6-2.xx&oh=00_AfA7aKkfTyyjj6pFvjphMmUPvRqWxGprtKuZctm3rbaOxg&oe=65759C9A
https://scontent-lhr6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/408758375_10161757446196490_5456572900372871113_n.jpg?stp=cp 6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_ohc=uFQK--3_FvEAX8n1YLw&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr6-1.xx&oh=00_AfAHPUnWdMXSSkKTXFDPfYEJOSg5ISFQI_8-hI0pHjA4Mg&oe=6575ED1A
cheers

[VM325]

Flight ops at Halfpenny Green...!
He's renting/buying 10 acres to create a flight ops centre.
No planning issues.
Apparently...

[admikar]

Just came home from work. Did I miss anything big?
From photo above, damn, those are some wide skids. Is Hill concerned about fairly inexperienced owner doing dynamic roll overs?

[CGameProgrammerr]

They don't look wide to me; the helicopter just sits lower to the ground than many others do, so the angle is more spread out.

[hargreaves99]

Jason Hill said the HX50 should be flying next year (2024)

Engine currently not running.

[Shagpile]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/img_7179_8bf38138430e0a428cff88eabed7450e9c5b09b8.jpeg

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This site has a 2mb limit for photos and won’t let me upload any more.

[Shagpile]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1500x2000/img_7212_4d06603030c2fd0d089fd48585861e9940e8316a.jpeg

[Shagpile]

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1200x1600/img_7211_9fbde1cd0e11b2917c394accb396ad9d9a0c64e1.jpeg

[Shagpile]

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[Shagpile]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1328x1290/img_7217_9df34fdf7fcfaf5f9e0db56c52bbf025d7e3ee0a.jpeg

[tbtstt]

The two idiot presenters are adding nothing to the credibility of the project.
I nearly switched it off on several occasions because of those two; irrespective of your view on this project, I think Jason Hill comes across well during the streams/presentation. Those two clowns chiming in added absolutely nothing and, in my view, actually take from the whole project rather than adding to it. Perhaps they are making a big contribution behind the scenes, but they should be kept off the camera in future.

As for the HX50, I am definitely less cynical about the whole thing now we are seeing complete airframes, but there are obviously a lot of hurdles to overcome before we see aircraft in the hands of customers. Some of the attention to detail seems really impressive, I am really intrigued to see how it progresses.

[Shagpile]

Show was amazing. Obviously a static demonstrator, but the level of progress was amazing and unexpected. I talked to several engineers and there’s no winter break; they’re already solving problems back at work Monday.

Some new info for those who won’t watch the video:

- Launched gVTOL initiative (g is for “green”), which I think is quite important to keep our industry ahead of being a target by militant greenies. Despite what you think of Hill, private heli ownership is an easy target for politicians looking to score cheap points.

- Announced two facilities; with flight ops at an airport. Signed already. Manufacturing space to come, which is easy and plentiful options. The flying was the big one.

- Taking direct public orders for HC50. £625k show price until Monday. (Existing HX order book can do £575k until Monday). final price I think is £725k. Also taking new HX orders frozen price £536k until Monday. Final HX price is £595k.

- Showed combustor test rig. Not yet operational. Engine guys say won’t be long. GT50 engine cutout concept demonstrator.

- Showed fully working gearbox and rotor hub with mock up levers to show how it works. This looks like an amazing piece of engineering.

My personal reaction:

The aircraft look better in real life. They almost look not real because they’re so modern & sleek. The retractable one is a later fuselage and you can tell the build quality is much better (little details), so they’re making huge steps. People here mock him for doors/handles but seeing people use them and some small issues with locking mechanisms highlights how important those tiny details are. The engineers were looking closely how people were using it in the real world.

Obviously it’s not flying but the seats, fuselage, windows, etc are all production representative. It’s very nice to sit in any seat. One of my worries was forward visibility for confined areas but you can see about 1m ahead, and through the chin windows near your feet so it’s actually better than I thought.

the signature strip lights and lighting clusters were incredible. High end automotive or better. The reveal behind the curtain with the strip lighting was really well done and looked a little knight rider! It was a fun show. The staff and engineers received a standing ovation for their work. They are definitely highly motivated.

Obviously the timeline is the big question on peoples minds. They’re 100% aware and are pushing hard but not compromising on quality. TBH after seeing this I’m happy to wait and make sure they finish it properly. Robinson has another couple of years of selling their over priced designs yet, but after that, I suspect it will only be rebuild kits.

[hargreaves99]

So...

£625,000 for an HC50

about £500,00 for an R44

Would the HC50 replace the R44 for the training market?

PS - I think Jason Hill was reading this forum at 1am this morning


Robinson has another couple of years of selling their over priced designs yet, but after that, I suspect it will only be rebuild kits.

[hargreaves99]

Why is there a go-pro mounted on the dash (facing inwards)? Was this to film people's reactions when they sit in it?

[SkyCruise]

That go-pro was streaming live to YouTube, well after the presentation, for the entire time people were trying out the interior.

It made for amusing viewing, as most people did not realize they were visible, to the wider world. Think nose-picking, etc :-)

On the whole, the reactions were appreciative. Not many frowns, if any.

[hargreaves99]

Humble Pie Defrost button looking more likely to be used then?

[Bell_ringer]

Robbie will have a market for a while. Horses for courses.
You won't take your Ferrari offroading because it wasn't designed for that.
There is an awful lot of cosmetic goods on that Hill and it remains to be seen how that will hold up in hot, harsh environments and that it will survive the rigours of training.
Robbos are relatively straight forward to bend into the correct shape, how will the Hill fare?

Would you take a Hill mustering?
It hasn't exactly been designed for utilitarian purposes.

He has lots to do still, making it look pretty is the easy part (the pics do make it look smaller than I imagined, not a huge amount of legroom in the back).
We will see what next year brings.

[212man]

That go-pro was streaming live to YouTube, well after the presentation, for the entire time people were trying out the interior.

It made for amusing viewing, as most people did not realize they were visible, to the wider world. Think nose-picking, etc :-)

On the whole, the reactions were appreciative. Not many frowns, if any.

I believe that could be illegal, unless everyone was told and gave their consent. This was a private event, not a public space.

[hargreaves99]

the gopro livestream does raise some privacy issues

anyway , let's hope the hx gets in the air next year and production starts in 2025, as has been promised.

[chopper2004]

Greetings from IWM


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/img_8841_2e1e7abed275cfc53ddaf3d1028a6887704bb29e.jpeg
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cheers

[Bell_ringer]

Are those switches supposed to be skew?
It doesn't look like a supercar quality finish, unless its Fiat surplus.
This section looks a bit cheap and tacky, fresh from the shed, so hopefully either a bad photo or a pre-prod finish.


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1556x790/screenshot_2023_12_07_at_15_04_50_78092bcc950ab7f6d075110d85 7991655bf25d6a.png

[hargreaves99]

the $64,000 question is can Hill scale up production to the promised 500 per year, within a reasonable time frame?

I met a chap who has number 270-ish and he is convinced he is getting his aircraft in 2026.

[chopper2004]

Here are my photos of the HT50 from here at IWM


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/img_1369_a9058f974f41fc47c9addb3d95dd5f341bc8cab8.jpeg
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[chopper2004]

the $64,000 question is can Hill scale up production to the promised 500 per year, within a reasonable time frame?

I met a chap who has number 270-ish and he is convinced he is getting his aircraft in 2026.

Yep according to MG, he was saying 3 production lines starting 2026, with

450 in the first year

675 in second year

1000 in third year.

They’re following the ways if the automotive industry …

cheers

[SansAnhedral]

Nope, definately no gearbox or rotors...


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1600x2000/408824972_1068424397864060_8701999327700647251_n_5a02c1103c9 0ccceb277f7da9d5350c4e76791b0.jpg

Boy that TE looks awfully thick and the abrasion strip looks like paint (particularly how the color goes around the tip which also has no cap detail)...my money is on these being mockups

[hargreaves99]

GA 2.0 is here, apparently.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NredReGJiyE

[ApolloHeli]

What's with the altimeter positioned on the left side of the AI? Surely it's common sense in a human factors sense to stick it on the right like every instrument layout out there...

[admikar]

TBH, it shouldn't be hard to switch places. It's just a bunch of pixels afterall.

[Expatrick]

Please forgive an amateur's (obvious) ignorance but, in a project like this, wouldn't it have been better to fully develop the engine / gear box first - before building the rest around it?

[Jetstream67]

So when the Fuel Shut-OFF is 'ON' does that mean its open or shut (I know I know but really)
How about Fuel Supply ON / OFF ?


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1556x790/screenshot_2023_12_07_at_15_04_50_78092bcc950ab7f6d075110d85 7991655bf25d6a.png[/QUOTE]

[hargreaves99]

same in the R22/R44, it's always referred to as the "fuel shut off valve"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvTW2KGWojY

[hargreaves99]

Hard to sell any deposits based on an engine and gearbox design alone.

Please forgive an amateur's (obvious) ignorance but, in a project like this, wouldn't it have been better to fully develop the engine / gear box first - before building the rest around it?

[admikar]

CAD made things a lot easier in that regard.

[hargreaves99]

Does anyone know the answers to these questions?

CRAN?




Maybe some meat on the bone around the hard bits would shut up those who have not placed a deposit - as examples:-

(1) How many engines will be built and tested prior to production and what time scale would be required?
(2) How many total engine hours run makes for a trusted engine design fit for purpose.
(3) What structural testing will take place for various parts - such as load points for the engine and main gearbox.
(4) How will the gear boxes be tested.

I am sure it will fly and customers will get their aircraft.


richard

[CGameProgrammerr]

The video of the main presentation is now up on their YouTube channel.

[Ascend Charlie]

That switch panel is lacking common sense.

The Fuel switch should show "FUEL" as its main caption, with the up position marked "ON" and the 90 right position "SHUTOFF"
The Gen switch has the lower position marked RESET and OFF, normally it would be OFF and then a spring-loaded spot below that marked "RESET"
The engine seems to lack ducting to take the gases from the N1 turbine (has proper inlet duct from combustor) and guide them onto the N2 wheel. Just looks like the hot gas expands into a big box and the only way out is the N2 wheel.
It must be for space considerations, but using 2 x 45 degree gearboxes to get the driveshaft from the engine to the transmission is introducing complexity and more ways to develop problems.

But let's wait and see. And wait. And wait.

[Bravo73]

I nearly switched it off on several occasions because of those two; irrespective of your view on this project, I think Richard Hill comes across well during the streams/presentation. Those two clowns chiming in added absolutely nothing and, in my view, actually take from the whole project rather than adding to it. Perhaps they are making a big contribution behind the scenes, but they should be kept off the camera in future.

Is this the first Hill video that you’ve watched? Those ‘two clowns’ have been part of the marketing effort for the past few years. One is a an experienced flight instructor (with his own YouTube channel) and the other has obviously flown around the world. They aren’t going anywhere.

And, btw, who is ‘Richard’ Hill? You’ve just been watching a long presentation from Dr Jason Hill (AKA CRAN, FWIW). :}

[Bravo73]

The engine seems to lack ducting to take the gases from the N1 turbine (has proper inlet duct from combustor) and guide them onto the N2 wheel. Just looks like the hot gas expands into a big box and the only way out is the N2 wheel.



Hill states at 1:04:22 that “we have an inter duct that’s missing from this because it’s a stand”.

[tbtstt]

Is this the first Hill video that you’ve watched? Those ‘two clowns’ have been part of the marketing effort for the past few years. One is a an experienced flight instructor (with his own YouTube channel) and the other has obviously flown around the world. They aren’t going anywhere.

And, btw, who is ‘Richard’ Hill? You’ve just been watching a long presentation from Dr Jason Hill (AKA CRAN, FWIW). :}
Top tip: don't have a conversation about someone called Richard while you are in the middle of typing a forum post! :O

My apologies, it was of course Jason, not Richard! And yes, I have caught most of the web presentations so far, so I am aware of the identity and background of Mischa and Ruben. I know they are an established part of the program and have been for some time - and I am sure they are contributing plenty off stage - but I personally thought their stage antics (and volume) detracted from the presentation.

Richa- no, Jason, seems to absolutely know his product inside out. The "hype men" felt unnecessary and somewhat at odds with the otherwise professional presentation of the whole thing. But hey, maybe I'm just out of touch and the crowd like to have the main speaker get interrupted and spoken over.

I chatted with two people today (one engineer and one pilot) who were both at the presentation yesterday and that was their only real critique of the event. Otherwise they were impressed with what they saw and what they learned from other Hill staff afterwards.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

That switch panel is lacking common sense.

The Fuel switch should show "FUEL" as its main caption, with the up position marked "ON" and the 90 right position "SHUTOFF"
The Gen switch has the lower position marked RESET and OFF, normally it would be OFF and then a spring-loaded spot below that marked "RESET"


But let's wait and see. And wait. And wait.
I don't disagree with you in the round but the gen switch could be a simple 2 position switch with the OFF also being RESET. While most ac I've flown have a separate reset position (usually to cycle power to gen control units and such) there are some setups that inherently do that in the OFF position. Not seen one in aviation, but they do exist outside, so I could believe Hill has included that for simplicity.

Aside from that, I find the display HMI fairly honking. Speed as a strip across the top of the display is pretty counter-intuitive for one. That said, for an "experimental" changing software is easy if you gaff off all the niceties of assurance levels. However, if you're adhering to DO standards, the PFD would be far from easy to change overnight, unless they've come up with some pretty innovative software process to go with the rest of it.

[Aluminium Mallard]

Are those switches supposed to be skew?
It doesn't look like a supercar quality finish, unless its Fiat surplus.
This section looks a bit cheap and tacky, fresh from the shed, so hopefully either a bad photo or a pre-prod finish.


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1556x790/screenshot_2023_12_07_at_15_04_50_78092bcc950ab7f6d075110d85 7991655bf25d6a.png
Is the fuel switch an electrical switch or a mechanical switch? Makes no sense it looks like a mechanical switch but positioned where you would an electrical switch. I suspect its a marketing switch!

[hargreaves99]

Airspeed strip along the top is a big no-no from me. That's unlike any other industry convention

[helispotter]

Boy that TE looks awfully thick and the abrasion strip looks like paint (particularly how the color goes around the tip which also has no cap detail)...my money is on these being mockups

Sans, you studied the photo more carefully than I initially did, but I agree these look like mockups for the display helicopters. Might be the same for the fenestron components? Still, it looks like good progress being made on various elements, even if some is shown in mock-up form.

[hargreaves99]

silence from crab? most unusual !

[helispotter]

same in the R22/R44, it's always referred to as the "fuel shut off valve"

It is a simple thing for Hill to address but I can see the point Jetstream was making. In the short clip of the R22/R44 shut off valve, the labels on the valve selector are simply "Fuel" with either "on" or "off". Little room for confusion.

Reminds me of the sad story about the words "flammable" and "inflammable" which actually mean the same thing. But some people believed "inflammable" meant "not flammable" when it came to children's clothing.

[helispotter]

In one of the photos shared by chopper2004 in post #1291, the skidded version shows the skids project slightly forward of the front 'cross tube'. But I don't think this is meant to serve as a boarding step as it seems too close to the front of the cabin door? In that case, why not adopt the style of skids as on the EC120? While I am still not used to that look, they seem to have less prospect of snagging a wire than traditional helicopter skids. Surely Eurocopter (Airbus Helicopters) wouldn't hold a patent on such a design feature?? Avoids the need for a WSPS to be mounted under the fuselage.

On the subject of skids, they sure look low and splayed apart on the HX50. Skids on JetRanger (and UH1) were originally quite low and sleek, but you rarely see such low skids on JetRangers now, at least not in Australia. So what has caused that shift? Fairings on the cross tubes are also relatively rare notwithstanding the drag reduction they provided. On the other hand, low faired skids still seem the norm on LongRangers.

[admikar]

In one of the photos shared by chopper2004 in post #1291, the skidded version shows the skids project slightly forward of the front 'cross tube'. But I don't think this is meant to serve as a boarding step as it seems too close to the front of the cabin door? In that case, why not adopt the style of skids as on the EC120? While I am still not used to that look, they seem to have less prospect of snagging a wire than traditional helicopter skids. Surely Eurocopter (Airbus Helicopters) wouldn't hold a patent on such a design feature?? Avoids the need for a WSPS to be mounted under the fuselage.

On the subject of skids, they sure look low and splayed apart on the HX50. Skids on JetRanger (and UH1) were originally quite low and sleek, but you rarely see such low skids on JetRangers now, at least not in Australia. So what has caused that shift? Fairings on the cross tubes are also relatively rare notwithstanding the drag reduction they provided. On the other hand, low faired skids still seem the norm on LongRangers.
They do. IIRC, Bell tried to use same concept with 429, but lost in court

[jimjim1]

the old tums up emoji.

Here you go -
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1000x667/buddha_belly_tums_up_267fad0d2e3f6fd18062811a79a86dfab803cdb 4.jpg

[PowerPedal]

[QUOTE=helispotter;11553455]In one of the photos shared by chopper2004 in post #1291, the skidded version shows the skids project slightly forward of the front 'cross tube'. But I don't think this is meant to serve as a boarding step as it seems too close to the front of the cabin doo

I was told by Dave the head of composite that the forward projection is purely to reduce drag

[CGameProgrammerr]

You guys are too stuck in your ways. On my helicopter I have it set so the PFD is just a little box on the top-right corner of the screen showing airspeed and other info as just a number (no tape); the rest of the display is a moving map. Immediately easy to use. A horizontal airspeed tape and number, on a display that is apparently pretty low down, should work very well.

[212man]

You guys are too stuck in your ways. On my helicopter I have it set so the PFD is just a little box on the top-right corner of the screen showing airspeed and other info as just a number (no tape); the rest of the display is a moving map. Immediately easy to use. A horizontal airspeed tape and number, on a display that is apparently pretty low down, should work very well.

and how much IF time fo you have?

[helispotter]

They do. IIRC, Bell tried to use same concept with 429, but lost in court

You prompted me to search for such a patent and here it is, at least the USA version:

US5860621A - Helicopter landing gear with skids:
https://patents.google.com/patent/US5860621A/en

That has apparently since expired.

No claims seem to have been made about reduced risk of fouling wires with such skids. Perhaps I was being too optimistic about that anyway.

But in any case PowerPedal has since explained the Hill reasoning for the forward projection.

[CGameProgrammerr]

and how much IF time fo you have?
If you mean instrument time in actual IMC, then the same amount HX50 pilots would have: 0 hours. The overwhelming majority of helicopters in the world, including all Robinsons, are VMC-only, as are the HX50 and the HC50.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

If you mean instrument time in actual IMC, then the same amount HX50 pilots would have: 0 hours. The overwhelming majority of helicopters in the world, including all Robinsons, are VMC-only, as are the HX50 and the HC50.

I'd argue that good HMI is good HMI. But also, good luck if you go inadvertent IMC - that's a big killer and should be catered for. Fwiw I've previously commented on the poor HMI of the VMC map/SA display for vertical obstructions as well - overall I'm not a nay-sayer on the machine, just think they're making a few quite basic mistakes around things that get people killed.

[[email protected]]

So lots of show but still no go. No need for the defrost for another year at least.

[hargreaves99]

Robinson make about 250 per year, and they don't even make their own engines, and they don't have owners doing 50% of the build.


Yep according to MG, he was saying 3 production lines starting 2026, with

450 in the first year

675 in second year

1000 in third year.

They’re following the ways if the automotive industry …

cheers

[Markhux]

Has Mr Hill bought an R66 in June?

DYNAMIQ ASSET HOLDINGS LIMITED - G-CIKX?

[hargreaves99]

it would appear so

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/officers/UqIT7R5u9CKyw04QR72DD8ABjDY/appointments



https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1466x932/screen_shot_2023_12_09_at_21_43_20_c1be34904dc600301cb9b91a0 f3f25b8fd34f132.png

[[email protected]]

Pba target is absolutely right about IIMC - it has killed an awful lot of VMC only pilots in VMC only helicopters over the years and will probably continue to do so whilst pilots overestimate their capabilities and underestimate the weather.

[Shagpile]

Keeping in mind this is a work in progress (e.g. see the text overrun bug bottom right, no terrain yet, ...), I think it's going quite well. Improvements I'd make are:

- Altitude readout: round to nearest 10 ft
- GPS Track pointer on HSI
- Fonts for units smaller. Capitalise NM (nm is nanometers).
- Regionalised formatting of thousands separators, e.g. 1,200 ft
- Add Wind indicator (significantly lowers workload & improves safety)

I particularly like the colour coded power and "time available" countdown. e.g. your two lots of 30 second 500hp max power every hour will be accurately presented, and 440hp takeoff power (5mins).

It's a VFR machine but I think it would be quite easy to fly in IMC, should the need arise. And I think all VFR aircraft should have some kind of "get out of trouble" instrumentation; there have been far too many IMC into terrain lately.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1290x753/signal_2023_12_11_153800_3e8f8152d4136f5340de732c31b976b4f96 24a98.jpeg

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Keeping in mind this is a work in progress (e.g. see the text overrun bug bottom right, no terrain yet, ...), I think it's going quite well. Improvements I'd make are:

- Altitude readout: round to nearest 10 ft
- GPS Track pointer on HSI
- Fonts for units smaller. Capitalise NM (nm is nanometers).
- Regionalised formatting of thousands separators, e.g. 1,200 ft
- Add Wind indicator (significantly lowers workload & improves safety)

I particularly like the colour coded power and "time available" countdown. e.g. your two lots of 30 second 500hp max power every hour will be accurately presented, and 440hp takeoff power (5mins).

It's a VFR machine but I think it would be quite easy to fly in IMC, should the need arise. And I think all VFR aircraft should have some kind of "get out of trouble" instrumentation; there have been far too many IMC into terrain lately.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1290x753/signal_2023_12_11_153800_3e8f8152d4136f5340de732c31b976b4f96 24a98.jpeg
There's some choices there that are great. Using circular gauges rather than strip on the L and R is a positive for sure.

[Agile]

It's a VFR machine but I think it would be quite easy to fly in IMC,

don't give people any idea that they can do something they cannot


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1290x753/signal_2023_12_11_153800_3e8f8152d4136f5340de732c31b976b4f96 24a98.jpeg
I get it there are a few good things but it will take some getting use to it:Traditionally engine information has always had its own visualisation space. Aka: VEMD on the AS350 or similar but usually on the centre space of the MIP. Now I get some “volts” here, “oil pressure” there, “amp” other there, radio frequency down there … all on that single screen space. I don’t see how it is going to help me diagnose problem quickly, when all that information is not segregated. it just looks like something that belongs to the range rover upscale version. I miss a good annunciator panel instead of all that fancyness.

[PowerPedal]

don't give people any idea that they can do something they cannot


Now I get some “volts” here, “oil pressure” there, “amp” other there, radio frequency down there … all on that single screen space. I don’t see how it is going to help me diagnose problem quickly, when all that information is not segregated. it just looks like something that belongs to the range rover upscale version. I miss a good annunciator panel instead of all that fancyness.


it does have an annunciator panel:

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1452x1148/img_3406_169b65178eb9f988bcc978393f5d778ba7cba5d4.jpeg

better still it then displays a pop up box telling you what to do when a warning light illuminates. ie “land immediately” vs “land as soon as practical” etc

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/880x537/img_3407_7c681260b56e295bce38c404a8f17e2aacc2b26d.jpeg

[Phoinix]

So, basically, the displays are so "innovative" and "intuitive" and ___ (put in some other fancy i word) that no IR rated pilot will be able to use them (if needed in IIMC). The NAV part is the smallest display (centre), the iflight or whatever is called (definitely not a PDF) is biiiig, as any VFR pilot can use it, when they get lost. I wonder what's the screen saver like?

[admikar]

This isn't IFR machine anyway. My guess HC50 will be a lot more in lieu with current crop of helicopters regarding visuals.

[PlasticCabDriver]

Keeping in mind this is a work in progress (e.g. see the text overrun bug bottom right, no terrain yet, ...), I think it's going quite well. Improvements I'd make are:

- Altitude readout: round to nearest 10 ft
- GPS Track pointer on HSI
- Fonts for units smaller. Capitalise NM (nm is nanometers).
- Regionalised formatting of thousands separators, e.g. 1,200 ft
- Add Wind indicator (significantly lowers workload & improves safety)

I particularly like the colour coded power and "time available" countdown. e.g. your two lots of 30 second 500hp max power every hour will be accurately presented, and 440hp takeoff power (5mins).

It's a VFR machine but I think it would be quite easy to fly in IMC, should the need arise. And I think all VFR aircraft should have some kind of "get out of trouble" instrumentation; there have been far too many IMC into terrain lately.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1290x753/signal_2023_12_11_153800_3e8f8152d4136f5340de732c31b976b4f96 24a98.jpeg

I’m sure you’d get used to it, but something doesn’t sit right with me about that layout. I think it’s the power gauge on the right next to the AI, to me that should be IAS. Having an IAS strip along the top when the altimeter is a circular gauge also seems a little incongruous. Perhaps I’m thinking about it from an IFR view point and the ability to maintain a scan, when that’s not really what it’s aiming at, and it actually works for a VFR only machine.

And yes, separate out the engine/tech stuff into its own area on the screen, bit of a dog’s dinner at the moment.

[hargreaves99]

I also think it looks like something from a car, and not in a good way

Eurocopter screens are brilliant, why not just copy those?


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x1200/ec145_securite_civile_18_35565540e8560354111740cf28c2733626d 3d2a0.jpg




https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x702/17750_1203248246_fe12cfece986cf8bca98d4f701724107e5910cc5.jp g

[helispotter]

So...

£625,000 for an HC50

about £500,00 for an R44

...

Given the HX50 and HC50 are powered by a gas turbine, wouldn't it be more fair to compare them with an R66?

Using the "Build your R66 Turbine" application on Robinson website, the base model is available for US$1,072,000 which equates to about £853,000. But if you select most high-end optional extras for the R66 the price climbs to US$1,416,000 or about £1,126,000. Perhaps someone can refine the comparison further based on what Hill is offering.

One obvious current difference is that you could presumably acquire your R66 fairly soon, but you would have to await your turn in an increasingly long queue for a HX50 / HC50.

[hargreaves99]

I heard the blades on the recent Duxford show aircraft were fiberglass mockups, did anyone look at them?

[SWBKCB]

Given the HX50 and HC50 are powered by a gas turbine, wouldn't it be more fair to compare them with an R66?

Using the "Build your R66 Turbine" application on Robinson website, the base model is available for US$1,072,000 which equates to about £853,000. But if you select most high-end optional extras for the R66 the price climbs to US$1,416,000 or about £1,126,000. Perhaps someone can refine the comparison further based on what Hill is offering.

One obvious current difference is that you could presumably acquire your R66 fairly soon, but you would have to await your turn in an increasingly long queue for a HX50 / HC50.

Another obvious difference is one is certified.

[admikar]

Given the HX50 and HC50 are powered by a gas turbine, wouldn't it be more fair to compare them with an R66?

Using the "Build your R66 Turbine" application on Robinson website, the base model is available for US$1,072,000 which equates to about £853,000. But if you select most high-end optional extras for the R66 the price climbs to US$1,416,000 or about £1,126,000. Perhaps someone can refine the comparison further based on what Hill is offering.

One obvious current difference is that you could presumably acquire your R66 fairly soon, but you would have to await your turn in an increasingly long queue for a HX50 / HC50.
As said above, one is already certified, with known performance. Another is a set of nice powerpoint slides, with one man's word about performance.

[helispotter]

Another obvious difference is one is certified.

True, I shouldn't even have mentioned HX50. Hargreaves99 compared price of R44 with the HC50, where the intent is that the latter will also be certified. It still boils down to the time taken until you can collect a certified HC50 from the Hill production line.

Personally, having watched a few of the videos, I think it is very gutsy for Jason Hill to have decided years back to design his own helicopter, and then to assemble a substantial team of people to help achieve that dream / goal. I wish them well even if the timescale ends up being longer than they originally forecast.

[hargreaves99]

I heard if you ordered one at Duxford the other day it was a "one day sale". £100k discount . ala "black Friday"

[PowerPedal]

Given the HX50 and HC50 are powered by a gas turbine, wouldn't it be more fair to compare them with an R66?

Using the "Build your R66 Turbine" application on Robinson website, the base model is available for US$1,072,000 which equates to about £853,000. But if you select most high-end optional extras for the R66 the price climbs to US$1,416,000 or about £1,126,000. Perhaps someone can refine the comparison further based on what Hill is offering.
One obvious current difference is that you could presumably acquire your R66 fairly soon, but you would have to await your turn in an increasingly long queue for a HX50 / HC50.


Not only is there absolutely no comparison between the outdated and rather embarrassing R66, which not only costs significantly more to purchase (as you've pointed out), but the R66 needs to be rebuilt every 2,000hrs at a minimum cost of US$397k (£316k) where as the HC50 is good for 5,000hrs. When that is factored in, the absolute base model R66 is going to cost a minimum of £853k + 1.5 rebuilds @ £316k ea = £1327k, nearly double the certified HC50 at £725k. On those numbers it's a bit of a no brainer really. Robinson won't sell another R66 once HC50 becomes available. Even the R44 sales will be virtually wiped out. Their plan? Hope that HC50 never eventuates. Pretty hopeless business model.

And behold Robinsons "state of the art" flagship offering: Seriously Robinson, it's 2023! Get off your lazy arses and start innovating. This is the very reason why Hill exists.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1179x736/img_3402_6ed0e7e8bd13186e1c5ad180f13d05aad46efad5.jpeg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1179x1479/img_3403_5a252b4aab93be9b9462f904fe2d3edf2caed37a.jpeg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1179x1336/img_3404_4b851b20571850afc00b454ba34bbe472e028e55.jpeg

[hargreaves99]

Not yet it isn't

where as the HC50 is good for 5,000hrs

[hargreaves99]

Can anyone explain why the collective is so far forward?


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1200x571/2_2fa2caada06a11c8c44460ec34779291c286466f.jpg

[admikar]

Can anyone explain why the collective is so far forward?


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1200x571/2_2fa2caada06a11c8c44460ec34779291c286466f.jpg
It's planned to fly so long into future that people will evolve with longer limbs?
I mean , average height is going up over decades.

[exwessex]

The collective is relatively far forward because it's fully down-it is pulled horizontally backwards to increase pitch.

[twinstar_ca]

the 222 is a horizontal collective and is not that far forward... more of back and forth...

[hargreaves99]

So.. 4 years later, any update on this?

...
What traffic ,remember I said for private use. Shortly flying schools will be allowed to train people on Permit to fly machines

[Hughes500]

we can

[hargreaves99]

Can you train for a PPL on "permit to fly"?

Unless you own the aircraft I thought not.

https://www.caa.co.uk/general-aviation/aircraft-ownership-and-maintenance/use-of-national-permit-to-fly-for-flight-instruction-and-self-fly-hire/

[IceHopper]

Not only is there absolutely no comparison between the outdated and rather embarrassing R66, which not only costs significantly more to purchase (as you've pointed out), but the R66 needs to be rebuilt every 2,000hrs at a minimum cost of US$397k (£316k) where as the HC50 is good for 5,000hrs. When that is factored in, the absolute base model R66 is going to cost a minimum of £853k + 1.5 rebuilds @ £316k ea = £1327k, nearly double the certified HC50 at £725k. On those numbers it's a bit of a no brainer really. Robinson won't sell another R66 once HC50 becomes available. Even the R44 sales will be virtually wiped out. Their plan? Hope that HC50 never eventuates. Pretty hopeless business model.

I agree completely. Yet, while I'm waiting for the HX50, I enjoy flying the R66 to all sorts of places. There's no alternative around right now that matches its combination of performance, endurance, and operating cost. Frank Robinson put machines on the market with a similar spirit as Jason Hill. I hope Jason will be as successful as Frank has been in the past!

[megan]

From Aviation Week Tony Osborne December 12, 2023HX50 Light Rotorcraft First Flight Held Up By Lack Of EngineWith an order backlog of almost 1,000 aircraft and growing, British startup Hill Helicopters has finally lifted the veil on the first prototypes of its HX50 turbine-powered light rotorcraft.

At the debut of the first aircraft during a glitzy event at Duxford, England, on Dec. 6, company founder Jason Hill suggested that his helicopters could also find a role in advanced air mobility ahead of the wider adoption of electric vertical-takeoff-and-landing (eVTOL) aircraft. “People are asking questions about the future of the helicopter,” Hill told customers. “The helicopter has a bright future,” he insisted, but only if aircraft are designed so that those operating them can be “profitable again.”

Hill said helicopters such as the certified variant of the HX50, the HC50, could make commercial operations viable again because of its performance and low costs. “The world will have to wait a little while for the batteries to be good enough to make some of the other [eVTOL] configurations truly economically viable,” he said.

Hill’s Green-VTOL initiative calls for HX/HC50 customers to make use of sustainable aviation fuels, particularly as many of them will operate their helicopters from their homes, requiring them to take delivery of their fuel. Keeping costs down would be possible thanks to what he called “end-to-end control [by the manufacturer] of the purchase costs and spares,” which he said would drive down the cost of insurance.

Ever since he formally launched the company, Hill had set out to challenge the general aviation industry by delivering an aircraft developed primarily for private ownership and making possession of a helicopter as attractive as, for example, buying a high-performance car.

Hill wants to do this by reducing the barriers to ownership and keeping costs down, made possible in part through the complete vertical integration of the company’s supply chain and manufacturing process. This effort includes internal development of the HX/HC50’s propulsion, the 500-shp HT50 engine. However, no engine had been run by the unveiling event, leaving the almost completed aircraft in the unusual position of being without a powerplant.

Although under development for more than a decade through Hill’s other company—Dynamiq Engineering—the engine’s design has had to go through a refresh, previously referred to as GT50 V2.0, a redesign of the combustion system. Engineers are set to imminently begin testing this combustion system to prove out the fuel system for engine start and stable combustion, Hill said. He added that the company now has the experience and materials in-house to cast superalloys for fan blades and engine rotors and produce them at what he called an unprecedented price point.

“Aerospace companies need to be manufacturing companies,” he told customers. “They cannot be technology companies and push the manufacturing out to a third party, because you will lose control of the price point.”

In terms of the engine itself, Hill described it as a “compendium” of the best ideas in turbine engines. “We have done a good job of bringing them together,” he insisted.

Other elements developed in-house include the aircraft’s avionics suite, which can be integrated with a tablet computer for navigation, while haptic controls inform the pilot when limits are being reached.

The current target for first flight of the 1,650-kg (3,600-lb.), five-seat shark-like helicopter is 2024, although Hill’s original timelines called for market entry during 2023. The delays do not seem to have deterred customers—individuals from more than 60 countries have signed up to purchase 789 HX50s and 186 of the certified HC50s.

The HX50 is being made available to buy under the experimental homebuilt category. It is designed to be assembled on Hill’s production line. But the process will require the owners to attend a build course at the company’s factory and participate in the process of building their aircraft—planned to be around two weeks.

The more expensive fully certified HC50—priced at £725,000 ($910,000)—will be identical to the HX50 and built in the same facility. To prepare for the demand, Hill is also gearing up for production of the aircraft.

Original plans called for the conversion of an industrial unit in the English Midlands with production and flight operations on the same site, but the company faced public opposition to the proposals. The company is now hoping for a dual-site approach, with manufacturing in one location and flying operations to be performed at a separate 10-acre site at Halfpenny Green Airfield near Wolverhampton, England.

[Shagpile]

don't give people any idea that they can do something they cannot (VFR in IMC)

Strongly disagree. You should absolutely give the pilot all available tools to use. I was recently flying in busy airspace VFR (Middle East), and was actively vectored into cloud for a few tens of minutes. Could not deviate at all due traffic density. Not all VFR pilots are VFR-only. A lot are IFR qualified, or have been. Give me every tool available please.

And to the person saying Airbus displays are better. LOL. You have got to be joking. It's 2023 and they haven't even discovered anti-aliasing for their 4 colour, 1980's pixel art display.

Leisure Suit Larry Land of the Lounge Lizards looked better in 1987 than Airbus VEMD did in 1999, let alone 2023.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1500x2000/signal_2023_12_14_162610_6bf4b41df71d0b5d097222f3bf452b0b164 6e73f.jpeg

Oh yeah this HSI is oozing futuristic themes, the same way my GameBoy was all the rage in 1989:

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/427x640/ec145_securite_civile_18_35565540e8560354111740cf28c2733626d 3d2a0_medium_44c46b7a0cfd772c510b5e88b0ef91b1c12552ba.jpeg

[Mee3]

Txi is a little better than 720p and more than enough. you need to keep up with the time too.

[hargreaves99]

I guess a working engine/gearbox/rotors is a tiny bit more important than what the screens look like

[Agile]

(VFR in IMC)
And to the person saying Airbus displays are better. LOL. You have got to be joking. It's 2023 and they haven't even discovered anti-aliasing for their 4 colour, 1980's pixel art display.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1500x2000/signal_2023_12_14_162610_6bf4b41df71d0b5d097222f3bf452b0b164 6e73f.jpeg
I just don't want to get duped by a better resolution screen or fancy anti aliasing effect. We have enough products in our daily life selling attributes that are overshooting the demand (smart phone in titanium or whatever).

Avionics functionality has different priorities such as: reliability – visibility – functionality in all conditions. It will take only one of those Hill screen to bail in flight, or not restart when you landed at the top of a mountain for people to love the pixel art "5" color VEMD again.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

I just don't want to get duped by a better resolution screen or fancy anti aliasing effect. We have enough products in our daily life selling attributes that are overshooting the demand (smart phone in titanium or whatever).

Avionics functionality has different priorities such as: reliability – visibility – functionality in all conditions. It will take only one of those Hill screen to bail in flight, or not restart when you landed at the top of a mountain for people to love the pixel art "5" color VEMD again.
Believe me, you haven't lived until you've had a blue screen of death in the cockpit in a high stress environment....

[Shagpile]

Avionics functionality has different priorities such as: reliability – visibility – functionality in all conditions

Nonsense -- visual appeal is part of the human interaction with technology.

Also - I note you didn't use the word "intuitive" in your description of that box. That is the worst, most unintuitive screen I've ever seen. Secret menu's and combinations of button pushes to get menu's. Oh and don't turn off both channels accidentally trying to access a menu; your FADEC might need that box. Absolutely pathetic they haven't improved on this in 25 years.

[Rigidhead]

Hello Shagpile

A couple of points on your VEMD comments above:

You are correct, it has been around for over 25 years. The improvement/growth you are missing would be the Helionix system (in the larger aircraft)

Looking at one indicator for engine parameters seems pretty intuitive (FLI)

The “secret menus” are not secret, they are easily accessed. The ones you need in flight are accessed with one button (scroll), and
the other screens are to get to Overlimits, previous power checks, failure diagnostics etc. There is no need to access these in flight, though they have proved to be very useful for their intended purpose.
The Fadec would operate just fine with a total VEMD failure.

All the best

Rigidhead

[212man]

Hello Shagpile

A couple of points on your VEMD comments above:

You are correct, it has been around for over 25 years. The improvement/growth you are missing would be the Helionix system (in the larger aircraft)

Looking at one indicator for engine parameters seems pretty intuitive (FLI)

The “secret menus” are not secret, they are easily accessed. The ones you need in flight are accessed with one button (scroll), and
the other screens are to get to Overlimits, previous power checks, failure diagnostics etc. There is no need to access these in flight, though they have proved to be very useful for their intended purpose.
The Fadec would operate just fine with a total VEMD failure.

All the best

Rigidhead

I suspect what he refers to is the autopilot power limiting, with coupled collective - that does get affected, and if the IAS is set too high, can result in a big overtorque. But, I disagree with his sentiments in general

[FloaterNorthWest]

Nonsense -- visual appeal is part of the human interaction with technology.

Also - I note you didn't use the word "intuitive" in your description of that box. That is the worst, most unintuitive screen I've ever seen. Secret menu's and combinations of button pushes to get menu's. Oh and don't turn off both channels accidentally trying to access a menu; your FADEC might need that box. Absolutely pathetic they haven't improved on this in 25 years.

Shagpile,

I suggest you Google “Helionix”.

FNW

[Jetexec]

I was one of the more fortunate ones who was able to attend the latest gala Jason Hill held at Duxford. Aside from the 3 fantastic days I had checking out Cambridge, we also had the opportunity to mix and mingle and ask legitimate questions instead of throwing around additional speculation ;-). I for one am still impressed with the progress I saw on the two airframes that Hill had on display. Do they have more work to do? Absolutely, self admittedly Jason tells you this. Do you know why a common product is called WD40? It took 40 cracks at it to get it right......bet you all have a can of it in your garage. There are still many more hurdles to jump over, but I think they are on the right track. I am confident enough to say that because I ordered two more HC's when I returned home. That in itself doesn't make me the smartest guy in the room, but it just goes to show that an intelligent person (I'm assuming that's me) who has an Aviation mechanical background as well as a commercial pilot's license can ask the questions to the appropriate parties to make a well informed decision. All this chat about the "horrid" panel or "those rotor blades don't look real" kind of questions are completely irrelevant. He wasn't trying to sell us an airworthy helicopter at this event. I'm 6'4" and when you can sit in a seat comfortably (try that in a Bell) or visualize first hand the luggage capacity that this helicopter has, that was quite an accomplishment (as well as all the other neat bits). No one there expected to be taken for a spin in an HX50, and no one there expected that what we saw was ready the end user. All this talk about the chances of the digital screen failing or how your alligator arms won't be able to reach the collective are all CNN news worthy, but like CNN news, they are just distractions to many who won'y ever get a chance to sit inside one of beauties. I urge you again to throw some positivity in your minds and wait the end result. I bet you'll be asking to go for a spin in one one day soon! Play your cards right and you may get the chance, but try not to spill the "half empty" glass of water in mine.

[DavidSmithHeli]

Hello to all, I’m new to posting in the forum here, but would like to introduce myself. I chose this subtopic for reasons that will be more obvious as you read my introduction.

My name is David Smith and I was the original chief engineer for the Bell 505 program and joined Robinson Helicopters about 9 months ago. I feel I am in a reasonable position (although admittedly biased) to comment on the challenges of certifying and manufacturing Part 27 rotorcraft. I am appreciative of the work Hill Helicopters is doing to change the industry narratives around 1) making aviation fun/cool/engaging and 2)vertical integration of manufacturing to control costs and quality. Indeed these two reasons are a large part of why I made the jump to RHC earlier this year! I applaud Dr Hill for his work and wish him safe progress on the development. Product unveilings are amazing and fun, but they pale in comparison to first flights and first engine starts, so I know their team is focused on the next milestones.

I also want to make myself available to anyone on the forum who might be interested in learning more about the challenges of certification or cost management in aerospace. Some of the opinions expressed above regarding spare part costs and lack innovation in the industry are passions of mine and I would love to chat with anyone here. Robinson Helicopters over the next decade will improve and innovate in a whole host of news ways. Please stay tuned and reach out if you want to connect.

Sincerely,

David Smith
Robinson Helicopter Company

[Agile]

Shagpile,

I suggest you Google “Helionix”.

FNW
Helionix suite picture attached for reference, note how they still use a lot of white against black contrasts, Hill HX50 panels, all unsegregated antitalised Blueish tones just blurs out the information.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1500x700/untitled_e313f81f83d56f770d96d10d7490315ae8d182d9.jpg

[[email protected]]

So 1650kg MAUM, minus 5 x 90 kg adults is 1200kg minus say 200 kg fuel is 1000kg - how much of that wonderful luggage space will be available to be filled? Or is the airframe made from pixie dust?

You could go and buy an ex-mil Gazelle which already does 140kts has a MAUM of 1900kg, seats five adults and has a good luggage space. However it isn’t experimental, has an excellent track record for reliability and is easy to fly VMC or IMC. oh and it was built and first flew in the late 60s. Where is the innovation to improve on that?

[Agile]

So 1650kg MAUM, minus 5 x 90 kg adults is 1200kg minus say 200 kg fuel is 1000kg - how much of that wonderful luggage space will be available to be filled? Or is the airframe made from pixie dust?

R66 empty weight = 585 kg
EC120 empty weight = 895 kg
SA341 empty weight = 917 kg
so the math could work if you can do EC120 weight or better

[Shagpile]

I'm not sure if this is representative of all Gazelle's, but I went for a spin in an ex-warbird one, and it was very agricultural; built for hauling troops, not for comfort or style. The one I went in couldn't even take a noise cancelling headset. But in general I do like the Gazelle. We just need somebody to make a modern version of one, with a smaller engine, lightweight fully composite fuselage, modern aerodynamics and retractable undercarriage. Oh wait.

I suggest you Google “Helionix”.

Looks nice, yet they are still installing the venerable VEMD pixel art museum pieces in brand new $6m 2023 Airbus Corporate Helicopter machines.

[Aser]

Am I missing something here...
What country allows VFR flights in IMC ?
wtf? :ugh:

(VFR in IMC)

Strongly disagree. You should absolutely give the pilot all available tools to use. I was recently flying in busy airspace VFR (Middle East), and was actively vectored into cloud for a few tens of minutes. Could not deviate at all due traffic density. Not all VFR pilots are VFR-only. A lot are IFR qualified, or have been. Give me every tool available please

[[email protected]]

R66 empty weight = 585 kg
EC120 empty weight = 895 kg
SA341 empty weight = 917 kg
so the math could work if you can do EC120 weight or better Agreed but I was being generous with both the pax weight and limiting the fuel the Gaz can do 450 kg fuel with 5 pob

[[email protected]]

Am I missing something here...
What country allows VFR flights in IMC ?
wtf? :ugh:
Yes, IMC without an IR?

[hargreaves99]

As I understand it most Gazelle's in the UK are also "permit to fly", as will be the HX50. As much as Gazelle's are nice to look at and fast, I imagine they are a little "old tech" (analogue dials, no air con, no AP etc) and I hear they cost an arm and a leg to run.

[Hughes500]

also ex mil can only have 4 in them and those sitting in the back, unless 5 ft nothing have the most uncomfortable seating position ( must have been designed by a medieval torturer or a Bell seat specialist ) Otherwise a great pilots machine and pretty cheap if you have an ex mil one

[Glimmer_up]

I'm curious to know more about the "Anti Ice" switch shown above. Did anyone attending the event ask about this?

Thanks

[FloaterNorthWest]

Looks nice, yet they are still installing the venerable VEMD pixel art museum pieces in brand new $6m 2023 Airbus Corporate Helicopter machines.

Putting Helionix in the Airbus Light Helicopter fleet was carried out a few years ago. An EC130 flew with a full Helionix cockpit including Autopilot but industry said they were happy with the current configuration so as it wasn’t commercially viable to proceed further, the project was put on the shelf.

[helispotter]

I was one of the more fortunate ones who was able to attend the latest gala Jason Hill held at Duxford. Aside from the 3 fantastic days I had checking out Cambridge, we also had the opportunity to mix and mingle and ask legitimate questions instead of throwing around additional speculation ;-). I for one am still impressed with the progress I saw on the two airframes that Hill had on display. Do they have more work to do? Absolutely... All this chat about the "horrid" panel or "those rotor blades don't look real" kind of questions are completely irrelevant. He wasn't trying to sell us an airworthy helicopter at this event... Play your cards right and you may get the chance, but try not to spill the "half empty" glass of water in mine.

Jetexec: I certainly understand your message. I visit this thread frequently as it is interesting to track progress being made, but also to read the spectrum of view being expressed, both positive and negative. I would like to think that Jason Hill and others at Hill Helicopters selectively read the thread too and don't take any of it personally, as even some of the critical comments should be food for thought for product development.

Since you had a dig at chat about "those rotor blades don't look real", it is worth adding some context: In post #1267 VM325 posted photos of rotors and main gearbox in response to CGameProgrammerr with the line "Nope, definately no gearbox or rotors..." as if to say there was more progress than CGameProgrammerr was expecting. In post #1296, SansAnhedral speculated the rotors in those photos were mock-ups and in #1314 I expressed the same. That was no criticism. The mock-up blades were subsequently confirmed. So VM325 had a point about progress but then so did CGameProgrammerr. Hill's earlier expectations for a first flight this year have triggered many posts here. Discussing progress on development can hardly be irrelevant to this thread? As for the humble pie though, lets just defrost it and all have a slice in celebration of the progress that Hill HAS made this year.

PS: I have been tempted to create a new thread with links to the countless EVTOL projects around the world. Some seem like smoke and mirrors to me, complete with what looks to be fake video that misrepresent progress. The Hill project has infinitely more substance and credibility than some of those projects.

[PowerPedal]

. Some of the opinions expressed above regarding spare part costs and lack innovation in the industry are passions of mine and I would love to chat with anyone here. Robinson Helicopters over the next decade will improve and innovate in a whole host of news ways. Please stay tuned and reach out if you want to connect.

Sincerely,

David Smith
Robinson Helicopter Company

hi David, welcome to the forum! Great to have someone of your calibre providing input.

I think we’d all agree that Robinson has fallen a bit behind to date on innovation and would love to know what might now be in the pipeline if you are able to share any teasers with us.

[Jetexec]

I'm curious to know more about the "Anti Ice" switch shown above. Did anyone attending the event ask about this?

Thanks

If I am reading your question correctly, the anti-ice switch is for 'engine anti ice' I believe (bleed air).

[DavidSmithHeli]

hi David, welcome to the forum! Great to have someone of your calibre providing input.

I think we’d all agree that Robinson has fallen a bit behind to date on innovation and would love to know what might now be in the pipeline if you are able to share any teasers with us.

We have spent a lot of time listening to customers over the last year and are investing in several key parts of our business to address that feedback. We have also brought in a number of new team members in engineering to help with some of the topics mentioned above as well as more transformative topics not addressed directly by Hill. Robinson is on the move!

We will be sharing more at this year’s Heli-Expo in Anaheim. Come visit us there!

[sycamore]

What is the engine type..fixed shaft or free turbine...?
Anyone seen a `flying`controls` layout/diagram anywhere....?
Will it have `jack-stall/`transparency` hydraulic system(s)...?
Why the obsession with a` big power ` indicator ,and such small indicator for RRPM...?
In a single-engined helo,with `possibly ``low-inertia` rotorblades,,If the` donk` stops,the lever has to be on it`s way down before any bells/whistles/horns operate,and you need a `Big`RRPM gauge to show you...you will be `cossetted` with ANR/Bluetooth/mobiles/music,so you won`t be aware of RRPM,or accurately fly at min NR, for `range`....
Where is the JPT/TIT gauge,or is that hidden in a `menu somewhere...?
The `attitude`indicator ,roll indicator,and aircraft symbol also need a better `contrast colour` against the `blue-sky..as `someone ` will end up in IMC..
Why does it need another's IAS readout..?it`s there ,on the strip..? same with the Altimeter,,,
U/C warning ,,horn /flashing lights.audio<20kts...?
All these questions.../ any answers..?
Who is in the `frame` for testing...?

OK,tin-hat and flak-jacket,watching for incoming drones,or armoured SUVs at the door...
nearly forgot..does it have a rear camera,and proximity warnings as well...just for parking...?

[[email protected]]

Why do you want anti-icing on a VFR helicopter?

[hargreaves99]

All very minor details considering there is no working engine/gearbox/rotor/tail rotor


What is the engine type..fixed shaft or free turbine...?
Anyone seen a `flying`controls` layout/diagram anywhere....?
Will it have `jack-stall/`transparency` hydraulic system(s)...?
Why the obsession with a` big power ` indicator ,and such small indicator for RRPM...?
In a single-engined helo,with `possibly ``low-inertia` rotorblades,,If the` donk` stops,the lever has to be on it`s way down before any bells/whistles/horns operate,and you need a `Big`RRPM gauge to show you...you will be `cossetted` with ANR/Bluetooth/mobiles/music,so you won`t be aware of RRPM,or accurately fly at min NR, for `range`....
Where is the JPT/TIT gauge,or is that hidden in a `menu somewhere...?
The `attitude`indicator ,roll indicator,and aircraft symbol also need a better `contrast colour` against the `blue-sky..as `someone ` will end up in IMC..
Why does it need another's IAS readout..?it`s there ,on the strip..? same with the Altimeter,,,
U/C warning ,,horn /flashing lights.audio<20kts...?
All these questions.../ any answers..?
Who is in the `frame` for testing...?

OK,tin-hat and flak-jacket,watching for incoming drones,or armoured SUVs at the door...
nearly forgot..does it have a rear camera,and proximity warnings as well...just for parking...?

[twinstar_ca]

Why do you want anti-icing on a VFR helicopter?

am i missing something here?? i thought JetExec said it was bleed air for the engine... isn't that like carb heat on a 152?? :confused:

[sycamore]

Not quite; the 152 hot air is from an exhaust manifold and fed to the carb...
The HX50 presumably will take a `bleed` from the compressor stage,to be fed into the intake casing...However,it could,with suitable `plumbing`,have a similar `manifold` around the exhaust,feeding back to the intake,using `spent` heat,rather than draw power from the compressor...

[megan]

Why do you want anti-icing on a VFR helicopter?You've spent too much time in the big stuff crab ;), even the VFR B206 manual says anti ice shall be on for flight in visible moisture in temps below 4.4°C.

[[email protected]]

Megan, I've seen so many different definitions for conditions where you might experience engine icing over the years, many of which specify either visible moisture or visibility less than 1000m below anything from +10 to 0. :ok:
The Gazelle was used regularly for instrument flying, including airframe icing conditions (when the FM aerials began to wave around it was time to leave) - never had an engine anti ice switch or facility and never, to my knowledge, experienced engine icing.

[collectivethrust]

Megan, I've seen so many different definitions for conditions where you might experience engine icing over the years, many of which specify either visible moisture or visibility less than 1000m below anything from +10 to 0. :ok:
The Gazelle was used regularly for instrument flying, including airframe icing conditions (when the FM aerials began to wave around it was time to leave) - never had an engine anti ice switch or facility and never, to my knowledge, experienced engine icing.


I am fairly sure the Gazelle did, it was provided by the heat of the engine oil around the intake, so not a selectable system. Also, many VFR machines have anti icing for the engine, eg Carb Heat. Similar to Pitot Heat heat that may be required below 10 deg

[Lala Steady]

I am fairly sure the Gazelle did, it was provided by the heat of the engine oil around the intake, so not a selectable system. Also, many VFR machines have anti icing for the engine, eg Carb Heat. Similar to Pitot Heat heat that may be required below 10 deg
So not in fact an anti icing system then?

[[email protected]]

Carb heat for a piston engine is essential since you can get carb icing (not engine icing) at high OAT with very high humidity - engine anti-icing isn't required on a VFR turbine.

[megan]

crab, do our turbine VFR machines, eg B206, only have anti icing because tests have shown they need it to comply? Are you aware of any VFR turbine without anti icing? Just curious.

t§ 27.1093 Induction system icing protection.

(b) Turbine engine.(1) It must be shown that each turbine engine and its air inlet system can operate throughout the flight power range of the engine (including idling)—

(i) Without accumulating ice on engine or inlet system components that would adversely affect engine operation or cause a serious loss of power under the icing conditions specified in appendix C of Part 29 of this chapter; and

(ii) In snow, both falling and blowing, without adverse effect on engine operation, within the limitations established for the rotorcraft.

(2) Each turbine engine must idle for 30 minutes on the ground, with the air bleed available for engine icing protection at its critical condition, without adverse effect, in an atmosphere that is at a temperature between 15° and 30 °F (between −9° and −1 °C) and has a liquid water content not less than 0.3 gram per cubic meter in the form of drops having a mean effective diameter not less than 20 microns, followed by momentary operation at takeoff power or thrust. During the 30 minutes of idle operation, the engine may be run up periodically to a moderate power or thrust setting in a manner acceptable to the Administrator.

[[email protected]]

Megan - I would guess it depends on the limitations in the RFM, if it says you can't fly in certain visibilities, certain temperature ranges or certain weather conditions where icing may occur then you won't need the extra protection.

There is obviously a difference between inlet protection provided by the design of the engine - ie hot oil in the tank around the compressor inlet - and a selectable air bleed or electrical system designed to give additional protection in icing conditions. That is why I asked the question about a selectable systems on the HX50 when it is marketed as a VFR machine that most owners will never take into snow or operate in very low temperatures.

[Shagpile]

I’m glad other helicopter manufacturers are following HX50 progress. Disruption usually happens from an outsider, because businesses never make new products that compete internally with their cash cow.

If anything hopefully this project will force the entire industry to lift their game instead of raising prices every year on their 40 year old designs, and sourcing revenue from gouging customers with manufacturer recommended calendar life rebuild kits.

Yes it’s a large uphill slog, but it’s not like it hasn’t been done before. Remember HX just has to work (admittedly well, and for 5000hrs to avoid warranties). HC can take all the years it needs for the certification program in parallel.

[RVDT]

That is why I asked the question about a selectable systems on the HX50 when it is marketed as a VFR machine that most owners will never take into snow or operate in very low temperatures.

Engine designs with a static front compressor support without the convenience of integral heating are all effected.

i.e every MD500 and Bell 206 and 206L ever built plus the Robinson R66 all have selectable engine anti-ice installed.

The limitations are roughly < 5C and moisture visible - you don't need to be in the moisture, just if you can see any.

I would guess that is a very common scenario in the UK and elsewhere.

Looking at the Hill engine design and the way the compressor is supported I don't see how it would be any different.

VFR certification has no influence.

[[email protected]]

RVDT - thanks, I'm not a Bell driver so didn't know they designed their engines with selectable engine anti-ice.

However, for moisture to affect your engine you must surely be in it rathe than looking at it?

A shower 5 miles away is visible moisture but wouldn't affect you unless you flew into it.

Yes, less than 5 deg C with moisture is pretty common in UK during winter unfortunately:)

[tcamiga]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1408/carb_icing1_80537c03db84b4046efeb84d056f681a2a8134c6.jpg
Piston engine Carb ice 1
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1389/carb_icing2_6954964b82be229e1744c0c4e68a44bf1fe0ae4d.jpg
Piston engine carb ice 2

Maybe this will help ;)

[212man]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1408/carb_icing1_80537c03db84b4046efeb84d056f681a2a8134c6.jpg
Piston engine Carb ice 1
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1389/carb_icing2_6954964b82be229e1744c0c4e68a44bf1fe0ae4d.jpg
Piston engine carb ice 2

Maybe this will help ;)

In what way?

[RVDT]

RVDT - thanks, I'm not a Bell driver so didn't know they designed their engines with selectable engine anti-ice.

However, for moisture to affect your engine you must surely be in it rathe than looking at it?

A shower 5 miles away is visible moisture but wouldn't affect you unless you flew into it.

Yes, less than 5 deg C with moisture is pretty common in UK during winter unfortunately:)

The issue is condensate icing. Apparently < ~ 3.3 C and RH > 65%. Most RFM’s quote 4.4C which is probably a margin above. “Visible moisture” I.e. the dew point that you can see would indicate 100%? Water condensing in the pressure drop at the inlet and sticks to the IGV’s fixed or moveable. Not unique to aviation as industrial turbines have the same issue. Plenty of papers on the subject in the public domain. Apparently sublimation can occur as well. Direct to ice bypassing the liquid state. Dissimilar to carb icing as no fuel evaporation to assist.

[Dkshredder]

From the hill site: HDC is the user gateway to our operating and support platform for each and every

HX50 and owner. Our pioneering Hill Cloud and App services deliver the Hill Active Safety Management (HASM) system providing an all-new, streamlined and proactive approach flight safety for private owners. HASM delivers electronic management of the aircraft, licensing, pilot status and logs, along with our cloud-based flight data and video recording system that delivers active pilot oversight, safety monitoring, mentoring and support.


What do you all think of this? Sounds like you will only lease a hill helicopter and not actually own it?

[DavidSmithHeli]

From the hill site: HDC is the user gateway to our operating and support platform for each and every

HX50 and owner. Our pioneering Hill Cloud and App services deliver the Hill Active Safety Management (HASM) system providing an all-new, streamlined and proactive approach flight safety for private owners. HASM delivers electronic management of the aircraft, licensing, pilot status and logs, along with our cloud-based flight data and video recording system that delivers active pilot oversight, safety monitoring, mentoring and support.


What do you all think of this? Sounds like you will only lease a hill helicopter and not actually own it?

I read that as a software application and customer interface that helps to coordinate various aspects of aircraft ownership and operation. It is not entirely a simple thing to build and can create some challenge for mixed fleet operators who use tools like CAMP or Traxxall to manage some data and tools like Appareo or similar for other data. I do not think it implies anything about the actual ownership of the aircraft.

[[email protected]]

DKshredder - No they are talking about a Safety Management System that monitors and records all manner of data from the aircraft but also keeps an eye on the pilot's licence, medical etc - just a database for those sorts of things.

[[email protected]]

In what way?
yes, I think someone doesn't see we are discussing a turbine not a piston - nice graph though:)

[[email protected]]

RVDT - so it seems the heated intake (oil tank at the front or similar) is a more elegant solution since it gives automatic protection rather than requiring the pilot to select it:ok:

[admikar]

But it does rob you of some performance by heating intake air when it is not needed?

[212man]

RVDT - so it seems the heated intake (oil tank at the front or similar) is a more elegant solution since it gives automatic protection rather than requiring the pilot to select it:ok:
Turmo and Makila (330/332) are the same I recall.

[megan]

However, for moisture to affect your engine you must surely be in it rathe than looking at it?

A shower 5 miles away is visible moisture but wouldn't affect you unless you flew into itWhat you're missing I think crab is the visibility requirements for VFR, ours is 800metres, what is it that reduces visibility, not moisture per chance?

[RVDT]

RVDT - so it seems the heated intake (oil tank at the front or similar) is a more elegant solution since it gives automatic protection rather than requiring the pilot to select it:ok:

Possibly more coincidence than purposeful design - case would be the Safran Arriel which does not have a gearbox in the nose to heat things but also does not have a static front support or IGV at the front of the compressor for ice to form on so has no anti-ice. The first support is behind the first axial stage which I am sure has been demonstrated to not form ice by testing.

"Visible moisture" means if you can see any visible moisture anywhere not just nearby as it can occur with an RH of > 65%. Of course this only applicable with an OAT of < 4.4 C. At an OAT of < 4.4 C anti-ice is hardly going to be a performance issue.

As an aside having worked on a few RR A250's I have my thoughts on erosion of the compressor case half lining at the first stage (which is plastic BTW) is attributable to insufficient use of the anti-ice due to misinterpretation of the conditions required rather than dust.

The restriction is oversimplified to cover a broad range of conditions which you possibly could never test for - pilots after all, who don't need to endure the Combined Gas Laws?

[[email protected]]

Megan - ours is 1500m. If you have visibility less than 1000m due to water vapour you are technically in fog/cloud.

[RVDT]

I read that as a software application and customer interface that helps to coordinate various aspects of aircraft ownership and operation. It is not entirely a simple thing to build and can create some challenge for mixed fleet operators who use tools like CAMP or Traxxall to manage some data and tools like Appareo or similar for other data.

Should / could be a good thing - I have suggested to some manufacturers that they should provide a maintenance and airworthiness tracking system so that at least they have some idea what the fleet in the field is up WRT planning of what they need to produce to support the aircraft - seems like a no-brainer to me but hard to get across.

Pretty sure Bell has or had a system similar.

[RVDT]

Megan - ours is 1500m. If you have visibility less than 1000m due to water vapour you are technically in fog/cloud.

Ours is "operated at a speed that you can see obstructions and avoid hitting them" even special VFR in controlled airspace with at least a radio and subject to clearance.

Uncontrolled airfields with NORDO helicopters can be a bit fruity!

[farsouth]

Megan -What you're missing I think crab is the visibility requirements for VFR, ours is 800metres, what is it that reduces visibility, not moisture per chance?

Megan - ours is 1500m. If you have visibility less than 1000m due to water vapour you are technically in fog/cloud.

According to this https://regulatorylibrary.caa.co.uk/923-2012/Content/Regs/01310_SERA5010_Special_VFR_in_control_zones.htm
the UK limit for (S)VFR for helicopters is 800m

[megan]

ours is 1500m. If you have visibility less than 1000m due to water vapour you are technically in fog/cloudDo you have a link for the cloud definition? The 800 metres is for uncontrolled airspace and you have to be clear of cloud. Controlled airspace is 5,000metres, but special VFR may be available.

The "Handbook of Aviation Meteorology" defines fog as visibility being less than 1,006 metres, haze a visibility between 1,006 metres and 6.25 miles, so technically you're not in cloud at 800 metres, but in fog, and the regs say "clear of cloud", not "clear of fog". Bush lawyers we is. ;)

[[email protected]]

Megan - there is no difference between fog and cloud - https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/learn-about/weather/types-of-weather/fog#:~:text=Fog%20is%20essentially%20a%20cloud,referred%20to %20as%20dense%20fog)

Far South - SVFR is only available in controlled airspace subject to ATC approval - it is not the normal VFR minimum.

[[email protected]]

Megan - https://journals.ametsoc.org/view/journals/atsc/7/1/1520-0469_1950_007_0054_valwci_2_0_co_2.xml#:~:text=Visibility%20 in%20clouds%20varies%20from,meters%20in%20stratus%2Dlike%20c louds.

If you are operating regularly in 800m/half SM visibility you would have to ask yourself why.

The Bush lawyer approach to flying in poor weather because you can convince yourself it is legal is exactly how so many end up IIMC or is a smoking hole. Or both, see Kobe Bryant accident for details.

When I have flown in that sort of vis it was because I had to not because I wanted to and the has to was not to earn a few dollars, it was to save lives.

[megan]

If you are operating regularly in 800m/half SM visibility you would have to ask yourself whyStandard practice in our oil company owned operation crab, mind you it was interspersed with moments of IMC, we didn't bother with weather reports so it was suck it and see, at one time weather reports had to be paid for and the company couldn't afford the expense, I tried and the company relented to permitting one report per day, so much for updated TAF's etc on which to plan the ops manual and regulatory mandated land based alternates, which by the way we never planned for anyway, that being the company imposed actual operating standard. Given to believe the North Sea was no different in the old days.If you are operating regularly in 800m/half SM visibility you would have to ask yourself whyBecause it's legal, otherwise why would it be in the regs.

It does raise the question though, the 800 metres is UK approved for special VFR, what would reduce the vis to 800 in the UK, dust storms I doubt feature. :p

[[email protected]]

Megan - GOM perchance? Sounds like a very risky operation with very light touch or non-existent oversight from authorities.

Yes, over water is different as there a fewer things to bump into but the risk of IIMC flying in goldfish bowl conditions is high.

Was the N Sea like that back in the day? I wasn't there but it certainly isn't nowadays and hasn't been for a long while - if your operators are still working like this they are being exploited by the oil companies.


800m in UK would be snow, heavy rain/sleet and perhaps thick haze with a low sun but you would still be required to maintain above 500' agl so that would discount fog because you have to be in sight of the surface.

https://regulatorylibrary.caa.co.uk/923-2012/Content/Regs/01310_SERA5010_Special_VFR_in_control_zones.htm

[[email protected]]

Because it's legal, otherwise why would it be in the regs. Don't confuse legal with safe - just because it says you can doesn't mean you should - that's where so many accidents start, with pilots saying 'It's within limits' without thinking about their own limits or the reasons for the flight.

[Hughes500]

Crab, surely 500 ft away not agl

[Hughes500]

it is a ceiling of 600 ft when under a SVR, but that is for the issue of SVFR . then it will be 500 ft away for the ac concerned

[[email protected]]

Crab, surely 500 ft away not agl
Yes, quite correct, I was going for brevity r9ather than accuracy:ok:

[212man]

Crab, surely 500 ft away not agl
Can be both, surely?

(2) elsewhere than as specified in (1), at a height less than 150 m (500 ft) above the ground or water, or 150 m (500 ft) above the highest obstacle within a radius of 150 m (500 ft) from the aircraft.

So it's actually not even 500 ft away - it's 500 ft above the obstacle, that's within 500 ft away

[johni]

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/1110/made?view=plain#:~:text=(5)%20A%20helicopter%20is%20exempt,t he%20permission%20of%20the%20CAA.

The low flying prohibitions

(a)Failure of power unit

An aircraft shall not be flown below such height as would enable it, in the event of a power unit failure, to make an emergency landing without causing danger to persons or property on the surface.


(b)The 500 feet rule

Except with the permission in writing of the CAA, an aircraft shall not be flown closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle or structure.

[212man]

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/1110/made?view=plain#:~:text=(5)%20A%20helicopter%20is%20exempt,t he%20permission%20of%20the%20CAA.

The low flying prohibitions

(a)Failure of power unit

An aircraft shall not be flown below such height as would enable it, in the event of a power unit failure, to make an emergency landing without causing danger to persons or property on the surface.


(b)The 500 feet rule

Except with the permission in writing of the CAA, an aircraft shall not be flown closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle or structure.




Things have changed since 2005.......several times

[[email protected]]

It's the same as what we used in the military as MSD (minimum separation distance)which was essentially a bubble around the aircraft.

[212man]

It's the same as what we used in the military as MSD (minimum separation distance)which was essentially a bubble around the aircraft.
but it’s not- read it again. If an object is at a 450 ft radius you need to be 500 ft above it, which would give 650 ft separation

[johni]

this?

https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ORS4%20No.1496.pdf

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1392x710/screen_shot_2023_12_21_at_21_42_18_a7d68ea36f8b06028436863b3 fb411a3498ca393.png

[212man]

this?

https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ORS4%20No.1496.pdf

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1392x710/screen_shot_2023_12_21_at_21_42_18_a7d68ea36f8b06028436863b3 fb411a3498ca393.png
Basically, yes, or a more up to date reference: https://regulatorylibrary.caa.co.uk/923-2012-pdf/PDF.pdf

[megan]

GOM perchance? Sounds like a very risky operation with very light touch or non-existent oversight from authoritiesOz crab. Our C & T left to join the regulator as our Inspector, reduced our VMC to 3,000 metres and 350', not that it changed anything, other than now tooling about IMC at 350' when occasion dictated. Company had to hire in extra lift capacity at one stage, offshore were promptly asking questions as to why the contractor, a very reputable offshore operator, was not flying while the company aircraft were.Don't confuse legal with safeFirst started in the offshore on the Bell 205, is flying at 500' over water with 60 knots up your chuff a good idea if thinking the consequences of trying to ditch, even with an into wind entry the landing in the heavy seas will be interesting to say the least, even with the fixed floats which were required. I preferred to have at least 1,000' of air beneath me to get the machine turned around into wind, if that entailed going IMC so be it, single pilot in those days.

Have an email from senior oil company management that I should frame, "we've never had an accident which proves we're doing everything right".

[[email protected]]

but it’s not- read it again. If an object is at a 450 ft radius you need to be 500 ft above it, which would give 650 ft separation
It might be the Christmas cheer, but you might have to clarify that one - :ok: - back to the Gluhwein........

[P1tchlink]

It might be the Christmas cheer, but you might have to clarify that one - :ok: - back to the Gluhwein........

I think 212 refers to Pythagoras’ theorem

[hargreaves99]

Blimey, looking at some of the reactions here, you would think the thing is already flying




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jcjvKJMx2g

[212man]

Blimey, looking at some of the reactions here, you would think the thing is already flying




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jcjvKJMx2g

It’s the modern way

[Agile]

It’s the modern way
Yep, "selling something you don't have", is how some of the best venture business are built
just make sure not to push it too far or you end up like, Elizabeth Holmes, Incarcerated.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Holmes

[Jetexec]

I was there for the reveal. They did an amazing job. Is some of what we saw hyped up at this point? Absolutely, even Hill would admit. I think you have to look at the purpose of this event. Many potential consumers have wavered between wheels and skids, this event 'checked that box' for them. Tall buffoons like me worried about pilot/passenger comfort and got to sit in either of the models presented. This tall guy 'checked' another box-all you fellow Bell fliers would have also checked this box. I don't think anyone attending this event thought they were going to smell burnt kerosene unless they stood on the tarmac and watched a turboprop take off. There is still lots of work to do-all of the Hill Team will tell you that (I asked a lot of questions). I don't remember a thread this lengthy for the Bell 525 relentless (who out there is flying one of these babies yet?), or even the R66.............could you imagine Frank Robinson convincing Rolls Royce to bringing a new engine on stream for this helicopter? Some of you grey haired guys like me might remember flying their first prototypes designed in the swinging 60's? These earlier models of this engine were designed amongst a bunch of smart guys chain smoking cigarettes around a table with over flowing ashtrays whilst maneuvering their slide rulers to get it precise. To the previous poster, comparing this event to anything remotely similar to what Elizabeth Holmes did is a real stretch, but I do actually get amused at watching the keyboard wizards rant. I see almost daily, people selling their Hill positions for sizeable profits. The keyboard warriors will naturally retort that the original investor is becoming wise to JH, but if you are closer to that circle, you hear the real reasons. You should have seen the look on my wife's face when I ordered two more......that was a moment that if I had any outside pressure to sell, that would have been the day, but she didn't waver. Many of us got to where we are today by taking chances-lots of chances. She's figured that out a long time ago as well and does very well by some of the chances I took in life (some were unsuccessful, I do admit). I don't plan on running a helicopter operation any time soon, but I am speculating the stock will go up on these marvels. I wish someone would do a quick poll on here (i'm too key board inept to do so myself). "If you had the disposable money, would you consider purchasing a Hill Helicopter?". This poll (if answered honestly by the brave anonymous posters) may shake out many living with champaign dreams on beer budgets. That's OK to be that way. At some point in my life I had beer budgets as well, but if I didn't follow the dreams of others at that time and get involved in some way, I'd still be sipping on Heineken pretending it tasted like Dom Pérignon. Matt Haasen. Calgary, Canada. HX50 # 24, HC50 # 243, 244. I'm not so anonymous anymore ;-)

[admikar]

Difference being that neither Bell nor Robinson asked for your money to make the bloody thing in the first place.
To answer your question: yes, I would BUT only after I see it flying and delivering what was promised by JH.

[hargreaves99]

quotes:

"..everything I though it would be, it's ten times better.."

"...thank you Jason, you did it!..."









​​​

[topradio]

[QUOTE=I see almost daily, people selling their Hill positions for sizeable profits[/QUOTE]

For me that's the very definition of a Ponzi

[[email protected]]

For me that's the very definition of a Ponzi
Absolutely, if you believe so passionately about what Hill is doing, why on earth would you sell to make a few bucks unless that is why you bought the slot in the first place.......

[admikar]

OK, but how is it any different to any other money making plan/aka investment?
You think it is good idea, you put some money and cash in later when that idea lifts off.

[VM325]

For me that's the very definition of a Ponzi

Not really...
A Ponzi scheme is an investment fraud that pays existing investors with funds collected from new investors. Ponzi scheme organizers often promise to invest your money and generate high returns with little or no risk. But in many Ponzi schemes, the fraudsters do not invest the money.

As far as I can see it's simply a case of a few investors actually being speculators.
It's the way the world goes round...

[hargreaves99]

I heard Hill took another 200 orders at the recent two day Duxford 'launch'.

​​​​​​Its uncertain how many ordered the fiberglass blades though .

[Jetexec]

Not really...


As far as I can see it's simply a case of a few investors actually being speculators.
It's the way the world goes round...

Agreed. The two additional units I bought are more speculative. No different than the stock exchange. If you wanna bet on a pony, go for it. If I were as devious to develop a ponzi this articulate, I would have ran by now. Mr Hill seems pretty content to stick it out. Crab man, if you had the extra cash, tell me you wouldn’t be interested yourself. You seem to be the most vocal naysayer…

[megan]

Crab man, if you had the extra cash, tell me you wouldn’t be interested yourself. You seem to be the most vocal naysayerCrab has been in the industry long enough to see airframe and engine manufacturers of long, long experience having difficulties with new products. I remember the S-76A and the troubles with its engine, the famous BBQ plates installed to prevent a double engine failure following an incident which did just that, got to make more single engine landings than I care to remember as the engine matured, the loss of a good friend at Aberdeen when a rotor blade came off due to inadequate design/engineering was a high light.

I wish Hill all the very best and hope they have a trouble free introduction to service, but on the other hand I would not be surprised to read these pages one day detailing an fatal accident caused by airframe or engine engineering issues. A new engine in a new airframe is double trouble, as the S-76A showed.

[206 jock]

Crab man, if you had the extra cash, tell me you wouldn’t be interested yourself. You seem to be the most vocal naysayer…

To be fair, there are a few others who feel similar to Crab and who definitely have the money.

But what's the point in repeating the same concerns and issues for the Hillievers to dismiss because JH told them it will all be alright?

If a few people have hesitated over handing cash over to Hill because of what they read in this thread, I guess I would regard that as a victory.

And as always, if we're all wrong and JH pulls the rabbit from the hat, I for one am happy to plead for forgiveness. But we are WAY away from that point, the hard yards are still to be done by Hill.

[Jetexec]

I wish Hill all the very best and hope they have a trouble free introduction to service, but on the other hand I would not be surprised to read these pages one day detailing an fatal accident caused by airframe or engine engineering issues. A new engine in a new airframe is double trouble, as the S-76A showed.


Magan, I can agree with this. I have told many that the day that one of these new helicopters records it's first flight, the stock will certainly go up. The day one crashes will leave a hole in many hearts, no matter the cause-while we wait for the details of the crash while investigators do their thing. I can remember the first couple R66 crashes.......the world waited with anticipation while the investigators probed through the cause. I don't think that the 66 had any inherent design problems, and that most incidents were pilot related just like most cases. I'll never deny that there are will be design problems and setbacks. I don't post here to defend my decision to invest, I only post to put a positive spin on someone doing something that to me appears plausible. We'd be stuck in the dark ages if no one stuck their neck out to improve on what we have. How many "kickstarter" projects reach fruition? I know that the few I had thrown money into did not, but at least someone tried to create something new with some great ideas. I personally have bet on some bad ponies. Calling it a "kickstarter" is probably a better comparison than describing it as a ponzi scheme, but it is all good banter. The Jetranger has a weak tail rotor (I missed an actual incident by 10 minutes this past Boxing Day where one was written off), 214ST threw blades, the S76 (as already stated) had issues. Hell, the 407 I fly had early issues, and it took some lives until the problem was resolved. So yes Magan, I can agree with what you say. There will be risk and some will become test pilots, I just don't agree with calling it a Ponzi. In knowing Jason, I think that is unfair. In running my own business, I have heard the phrase "we can't do that" so many times that I honestly think we could have gone by the way of the Dodo bird had I had listened to all the doubters. There are some people out there who have a vision and an intelligence level to do things that others can't visualize, but maybe they don't have the means ($$) to get it done. In Hill's case, I think he put it all together by have a unique design, and secondly, by hiring his marketing team (Ruban and Mischa). Those are two ingredients that are necessary to produce anything new. Again, I'm not here to 'pump my own tires'. I met a lot of people from around the world at the event who were entrepreneurs and had business savvy. For most, it was not the last of their deposable income that they were investing, but for some it was. The truth is, if you sell 12-1300 widgets of any kind that took several years to procure, there will be some along the way whose circumstances change in the blink of an eye that would prompt them to sell their investment. Some are speculators, but in the case of others, all it takes is a bad report from your Doctor or maybe a disolvement of a marriage to change your investment strategy in the blink of an eye. We all know someone like that I bet. We are susceptible to anything. I wish only success to the Hill team and all the investors! Hell, I wish all of you success in your endeavours!

[helispotter]

"If you had the disposable money, would you consider purchasing a Hill Helicopter?". This poll (if answered honestly by the brave anonymous posters) may shake out many living with champaign dreams on beer budgets.

If I had such disposal money, then first a PPL(H), then check if still enough disposable money for a Gazelle plus say 10 years of funds for fuel, parts and maintenance. Bliss. If still disposable money thereafter, yep, would be willing to risk a deposit on a HX50 and support the venture. Oh, but it is beer budget for me, having just purchased a used 90 size RC helicopter!! Think I can afford fuel and replacement parts for it... 👍

[Shagpile]

I also bought two more HC50 slots after the event, for the £150k final retail discount. They’re up to 1200 orders (combined HX/HC) as of 1-2 weeks ago.

I don’t plan on accepting delivery of these. They are pure investment. I’ve already paid the deposits, which helps fund the certification efforts which will be long and expensive. I think there’s low technical risk, and medium time risk (read: it will take longer, but it will happen), which is fine by me. I will sell my slots to somebody in 5-10 years who wants to jump the 2-4 year queue for their business. The finance (holding) cost is around half the deposit but only a small percentage of expected profits.

I am essentially arbitraging the information asymmetry, my risk profile versus others, financial position and age/investment horizon.

Nobody is forced to buy anything. If you do your own research and you want one, get one. If you think it’s bull****, then buy my slots in 8 years. I’ll be happy to sell to you for a queue-jump premium above current retail price.

[Agile]

I am essentially arbitraging the information asymmetry, my risk profile versus others, financial position and age/investment horizon.

Speculative investments are like that: high risk - high reward animals. and yes the way you keep the edge is by having a better inteligence on the risk reward factor. I just question the quality your information asymmetry, I don’t think its enough to mask out the risks pending. risk of non completion, risk of major design shortcoming, risk of time horizon running way over expectation ....

The new crop of hill buyers-investors are like angel investors believing in a new model - hoping to make money on on that vision?

[Shagpile]

It’s nothing like Angel investing, which is investing large amounts of money into early stage high risk of failure startups (usually new untested ideas at the forefront of tech). Investors write off most of their investments and hope for the one or two 10-100x unicorns for their returns.

Hill Helicopters is more akin to a “normal” company. Making a machine that is made up of tried and tested ideas using modern manufacturing techniques. Relatively simpler path and predictability from R&D to product prototype to production. It’s a well defined outcome state to success (make the damn thing fly, certifiable, then mass produce it!).

Not to say these things aren’t hard, but there’s far fewer unknown unknowns that have historically been proven to be solvable.

[SansAnhedral]

Not to say these things aren’t hard, but there’s far fewer unknown unknowns that have historically been proven to be solvable.

But at what costs and eventual profitability?

From a technical standpoint, as someone who has designed multiple clean sheet rotors and blades, the machined aluminum grip-horn in addition to the CF retention and bearing approach gives me pause. And where is the blade tooling or info on the layup (not the FG, wood, and foam ones from the mockup reveal)? Fatigue test setup for any of these rotor components?

[212man]

But at what costs and eventual profitability?

From a technical standpoint, as someone who has designed multiple clean sheet rotors and blades, the machined aluminum grip-horn in addition to the CF retention and bearing approach gives me pause. And where is the blade tooling or info on the layup (not the FG, wood, and foam ones from the mockup reveal)? Fatigue test setup for any of these rotor components?


Aluminium blade grip? Really?

[SansAnhedral]

Aluminium blade grip? Really?

https://youtu.be/8sB4lE6tQaU?t=318

Check out 5:19 - hard to tell if it is even peened (?)

[Maoraigh1]

"Shagpile (javascript:void(0)) , 7th Jan 2024 22:35
I also bought two more HC50 slots after the event, for the £150k final retail discount. They’re up to 1200 orders (combined HX/HC) as of 1-2 weeks ago.'

Is it your personal cash or are you an investment manager gambling other peoples .money?

[helispotter]

https://youtu.be/8sB4lE6tQaU?t=318

Check out 5:19 - hard to tell if it is even peened (?)

Not sure how you were able to work out the material just from a video clip? Keep in mind that this initial assembly may only to be to test construction of a concept so need not be final materials or surface treatments.

[hargreaves99]

1,200 orders, about £60 million in deposits, and no running engine, nothing tested, no blades, no running gearbox, and no factory.

That's quite an achievement.

[[email protected]]

I have no skin in the game, I will never have enough spare cash to buy one even if I wanted to (I don't).

My criticisms come from knowledge of helicopters (of which I have some) and not my knowledge of investing (of which I have none).

If he does it, then fair play, but I don't think what will be produced will be what was originally promised and the investors will have to suck up the shortfalls in capability and performance.

[RVDT]

Aluminium blade grip? Really?

Has worked for years on the H500 - there are no blade retention loads in the grip only pitch change and pitch bearing axis. Retention is though the strap pack which are nickel steel by the looks. H500 "grips" or pitch housings for the correct term are cast Mg alloy and basically this is a copy.

Mr Hill is right there is nothing new in the head and mast. Depending on the circumstances there could be technology "licencing" or "patent" issues?

The swashplate control levers look like they fell off a H135 or 145!

[admikar]

Mr Hill is right there is nothing new in the head and mast. Depending on the circumstances there could be technology "licencing" or "patent" issues?


Then what was that BS few months ago when Hill couldn't talk about his new rotor head until patent protection is done?

[VM325]

Then what was that BS few months ago when Hill couldn't talk about his new rotor head until patent protection is done?

It's just taken me less than a minute to search for the patent in question.
Here's a clue.
GB2599344A

[hargreaves99]

https://www.ipo.gov.uk/p-find-publication-getPDF.pdf?PatentNo=GB2599344&DocType=A&JournalNumber=6933

https://www.ipo.gov.uk/p-find-publication-getPDF.pdf?PatentNo=GB2599344&DocType=B&JournalNumber=6989

[VM325]

It's just taken me less than a minute to search for the patent in question.
Here's a clue.
GB2599344A

There's quite a few patents (https://patents.google.com/?q=(helicopter)&inventor=Jason+Hill&assignee=Hill+Group+Tech+Limited) linked to Hill Helicopters...

[admikar]

Point is, if there is nothing new, why is it patent protected in the first place?

[VM325]

Point is, if there is nothing new, why is it patent protected in the first place?

Read the patent...:ugh:

It's predominately about the tightness of the rotor hub fairing and the positioning of the control runs behind the head inside the fairing.

[SansAnhedral]

Not sure how you were able to work out the material just from a video clip? Keep in mind that this initial assembly may only to be to test construction of a concept so need not be final materials or surface treatments.

2 decades of designing and building these things for OEMs gives a good eye for this type of stuff, not to mention them showing their CNC setup on a similar component machining Al plate stock and the kellering over all the parts.

Griphorns, in general, can be problematic even when made of proper hand forged and peened material. Hill's overall setup seems to be copying Hughes 369/500 though without lead-lag discrete dampers or tying strap packs to opposite side blades (so more like AH-64).

With regard to the head + sail fairing, this is a historically tough nut to crack - particularly in a volume production application. At Sikorsky, it was found to be difficult to maintain the close clearances (Hill mentions 10mm in his patent) and even in the end abandoned on the one-off X2 tech demonstrator.

Personally I'd like to see some...any...info on the real blades as that is my wheelhouse.

[Hughes500]

he spent a load of time with one of my 500's looking at the head and was trying to borrow one, but that was some years ago now

[megan]

there are no blade retention loads in the grip only pitch change and pitch bearing axisMate found that out in a 205 that ended with a ditching (fixed floats) because of vibration. Blade grip had cracked circumferentialy the full 360° so the only retention was the tension/torsion strap. On shutdown the blade drooped to the extent that it was punctured by the roof mounted VHF antenna. Grip had been supplied as new where as it had somehow snuck back into the distributor supply chain when it should have been scrapped after running out of hours.

[RVDT]

Mate found that out in a 205 that ended with a ditching (fixed floats) because of vibration. Blade grip had cracked circumferentialy the full 360° so the only retention was the tension/torsion strap. On shutdown the blade drooped to the extent that it was punctured by the roof mounted VHF antenna. Grip had been supplied as new where as it had somehow snuck back into the distributor supply chain when it should have been scrapped after running out of hours.

Old Bells are a different design when it comes to load paths and there have been plenty of "issues" over the years. 47 relies on an internally threaded grip? A few have been shucked due to cracks deep within the threads.
The design is question is similar to the H500 - there are no blade retention loads in the "pitch housings".

[hargreaves99]

I keep meeting more and more people (in real life) that genuinely think when the HX50 is produced, the R66, R44, B206 and B505 will all "become worthless"

[admikar]

Well, if HX/HC 50 turns out to be all that is promised, at promised price point, why would anyone buy those helicopters?

[206 jock]

I keep meeting more and more people (in real life) that genuinely think when the HX50 is produced, the R66, R44, B206 and B505 will all "become worthless"
Well, let's hope that JH has sold his R66 by then. And of course that the fantasy promised gets delivered.

In the meantime, I'll hold onto my 206, if that's OK. At least I can actually fly it, not just gaze at a poster and touch myself! I've talked to lots of other JetRanger owners and none of them are even interested in the Hill. Go figure.

[Pittsextra]

Easy to get trapped by getting wedded to an initial position and then either becoming overly optimistic or negative. Outside of the opportunity to make money or not out of trading a place on the order book the prospect of actually flying a customer aircraft (and remember the HC/HX distinction) stated deliveries is 2025 (and that in itself gives a 12 month window) and I don’t think Robinson or Bell need to fear much this decade.

[hargreaves99]

Hill are still saying two prototypes flying this year (2024).

No working engine yet.



https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/700x139/1_bd81504135aa32684bfd6e276367cba2358f6b33.jpg

[[email protected]]

It's like the Time Warp except there is no step to the left before a jump to the right.

No engine run in 2023? Let's do the Time Warp again.................

[[email protected]]

Or indeed a jump to the left before a step to the right as I am sure someone will point out:)

[JDJ]

..... "If you had the disposable money, would you consider purchasing a Hill Helicopter?".....

Yes, I would order an HX50, and buy a 206 or 505 while I waited.

[hargreaves99]

Some interesting comments below the video..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM5i-F9aD4Y

[JDJ]

Some interesting comments below the video..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM5i-F9aD4Y

- Yes, best just to read the comments and not bother with the video!

[hargreaves99]

An amazing achievement indeed. I fly the 66 regularly and as an all round practical personal helicopter nothing beats it.

Well done Kurt & Team.
CRAN

(Aug 2020)

https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/266788-robinson-r66-merged-threads-22.html#post10859416

[PowerPedal]

Crab has been in the industry long enough to see airframe and engine manufacturers of long, long experience having difficulties with new products..

don’t we all wish we had a Megan!

[helispotter]

Under the "Robinson R66 (merged threads)" thread, I had made a comment that in the Hill Helicopters HX50 'unveiling' videos (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPtgxj1Yu-s), Jason Hill discusses use of 'fences' fitted to the horizontal stabilisers. Agile responded in part:I have doubts that anybody understand the flow pattern on the tail of a rotorcraft. You got the induced flow from the main rotor, possibly the interacting flow from the tail rotor, and then the forward air flow. That sounds like a big whirlwind shake to me, Hills and the HX50 treat it with aerodynamics principle akin to a high performance glider, well I don't buy it. last time I heard, CFD on a rotor system is still a developing science due to the complexity of the flow interaction between blades (tip vortices) all that in a moving frame of reference...
I have watched the video again and the stabiliser fences come into view from about 18:56 onwards with Jason describing their function from 19:38 onwards: "...that's about aerodynamics and drag, because we keep the flow attached from the front all the way to the back we get a relatively thick boundary layer building up as we go from front to back of the aircraft... We don't want that contaminating the leading edge of the horizontal stabiliser, tripping the flow around there and driving the performance of this. So we put fences there to keep that [boundary layer] separate".

So as Agile suggests, does the Hill Helicopters flow analysis properly take into account that there are three main rotor blades each thrashing through the air above the fuselage causing significant undulations in the flow field around the helicopter? I wonder if this causes flow separation no matter how smooth and 'appendage free' the fuselage may have been kept in front of the horizontal stabiliser? And what about the undulating and turbulent flow field from the main rotors directly striking the stabilisers? How has that been modelled? In short, are the fences adding any real value?

Don't get me wrong: I would never contemplate designing a helicopter. They are complex far beyond my comprehension.

[hargreaves99]

Until the HX50 gets in the air properly they won't really know if all the computer-modelling is correct or not

Look at the issues Augusta had with the A139 tail rotor when it was released, etc And this is major manufacturer with proper factories, design teams, for a certified aircraft.

https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/450392-yet-another-aw139-tail-incident-gulf-helis-3.html

[ShyTorque]

I noted the “Helimove” option. All of this adds complication and importantly, weight. As well as the actual equipment a large capacity battery will be needed to power it. There are ways of safely moving a helicopter in and out of a hangar by remote control without fitting anything to the aircraft.

The RAF were offered a wheel drive system for the Puma, decades ago. It didn’t work well and was not fitted to squadron aircraft.

[Shagpile]

I noted the “Helimove” option. All of this adds complication and importantly, weight. As well as the actual equipment a large capacity battery will be needed to power it.
.
They’ve already tested the torque peaks of motors required with a representative test rig and will be high rpm small motors geared up. Yep adds weight but my understanding is the existing lithium battery is sufficient, which may also be able to power aircon on the ground for a while too. I’ll be ordering this option for convenience.

If you want to see just how well he understands his customer base and the helicopter manufacturing industry, watch Ep62 of the helicopter podcast:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EIVKmengPlo&pp=ygUYSGlsbCBoZWxpY29wdGVycyBwb2RjYXN0

[PowerPedal]

I have no skin in the game, I will never have enough spare cash to buy one even if I wanted to (I don't).

My criticisms come from knowledge of helicopters (of which I have some) and not my knowledge of investing (of which I have none).

If he does it, then fair play, but I don't think what will be produced will be what was originally promised and the investors will have to suck up the shortfalls in capability and performance.

And you've hit the nail on the head Crab. Although you are obviously a very experienced helicopter pilot and no doubt have been around the industry a long time, I suspect you've never actually owned a helicopter yourself, nor had to pay for the maintenance of one out of your own hard earned. (Please open disclosure on this and set the record straight, you are a very vocal critic and its important for context) The frustration with the existing manufacturers in our small world of helicopters is a key driver of why Hill started the HX50 in the first place. Cost of entry is high, but the real killer is the maintenance costs, and calendar life limits that make helicopter ownership prohibitively expensive for private owners. This is why he already has 1200+ orders without even having anything flying yet. I think it's fair to say that on this forum, despite our differences, we all love helicopters and flying. Some of us just want to have a shot at owning one under reasonable financial terms. Is Hill the answer? Time will tell. But there's no one else doing anything significant to address the issue, so why not get behind it and focus on the positives? He's making progress....

[CGameProgrammerr]

Yeah, just see all the threads on this forum from ignorant non-owners wondering why anyone would buy a $500k R44 when a $5 million A-Star is better. They just don't get it.

[hargreaves99]

If you are placing an order now (eg number 1,201) when on earth are you hoping to get an aircraft?

If proper production starts in 2026, even with an average of 250 aircraft built per year means ..the year 2031 ?

[206 jock]

If you are placing an order now (eg number 1,201) when on earth are you hoping to get an aircraft?

If proper production starts in 2026, even with an average of 250 aircraft built per year means ..the year 2031 ?I have given up trying to use logic with the Hill depositors. Jason says everything will be fine so it will be, apparently. But your point is valid. Robinson turn out around 300 aircraft a year, from an established factory and they don't make all the parts themselves! And they don't require their buyers to spend two weeks working in their machines. The Hill number is just made up.

The other question is why Hill keeps the order book open. Any normal business would close it and focus on delivering the promises. And charging more once they have delivered. But we all know why he keeps the book open. However for many it's just another example of 'doing things differently/vertical integration ' blah blah.

Had Hill charged £1m, announced 100 initial build machines and had a proper business plan in place, I would have been all over it. To be fair I don't think he is a scammer, but he does think that he is so intelligent that he can solve problems that no one else can. Engineering, planning, finance, HR...you name it.The depositors are betting that he is right. Personally, I doubt it. But I wish you all the best.

And in case Shagpile is about to froth off at me, I have owned helicopters for 25 years, all paid for with cash, not credit.

[hargreaves99]

I have given up trying to use logic with the Hill depositors. Jason says everything will be fine so it will be, apparently.

It is rather "cult like"

[Minquanlu]

This HX50 is just hype. A good one.

But I doubt if they can deliver these best technologies at low price. I know they have justifications but the likelihood of them not meeting these are just so high. I mean, foremost, everything is original from bolts to airframe to avionics. All are original Hill Helicopter design. So just how are you going to do that and maintain a low price? The total opposite of the best practices now that the major components are better sourced from known and tested brands.

[[email protected]]

And you've hit the nail on the head Crab. Although you are obviously a very experienced helicopter pilot and no doubt have been around the industry a long time, I suspect you've never actually owned a helicopter yourself, nor had to pay for the maintenance of one out of your own hard earned. (Please open disclosure on this and set the record straight, you are a very vocal critic and its important for context) The frustration with the existing manufacturers in our small world of helicopters is a key driver of why Hill started the HX50 in the first place. Cost of entry is high, but the real killer is the maintenance costs, and calendar life limits that make helicopter ownership prohibitively expensive for private owners. This is why he already has 1200+ orders without even having anything flying yet. I think it's fair to say that on this forum, despite our differences, we all love helicopters and flying. Some of us just want to have a shot at owning one under reasonable financial terms. Is Hill the answer? Time will tell. But there's no one else doing anything significant to address the issue, so why not get behind it and focus on the positives? He's making progress....

Why do you think maintenance costs are high? It's because the components are far more complex than on a FW.

I haven't owned my own nor ever will but I know quite a few owners and fly for one who has a lot of ex-military helicopters - if you want safety for you and your family, you pay the maintenance costs.

I am not defending the OEM prices for spares but they just follow what the car manufacturers do - lower the initial cost to get you to buy and then drag back some of that discount on spares and servicing.

Why do you think that Dr Hill is going to be any different or can't you see past the shiny shop window and politician-like promises?

Will he shake up the industry? I doubt it.

Will he make a half-decent helicopter for rich guys to pose in? Very probably.

Will people have to wait for longer than they thought for it? Almost certainly.

[wrench1]

Will he shake up the industry? I doubt it.I think it depends on what part of the industry you are comparing it to. In reality, Hill is creating his own industry niche or market of which he has no direct competitor or equal. Hence the reason for the HX50’s popularity even before there is a flying prototype. And if his method works, I believe it may well spur others to follow the same route but with different type aircraft. Interesting times from my standpoint.

[hargreaves99]

Some fuel has been ignited in a box


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ7kKlA5R9w

[212man]

Some fuel has been ignited in a box


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ7kKlA5R9w
In front of a skip, in the car park outside, by the looks of it! Pretty sophisticated……..

[Agile]

Oh my god, Hill is trying to incinerate a dumpster with a raspberry Pi processor development kit, out of the back of his garage. The Safran guys must have so much fun passing that video around at lunch break.

[toptobottom]

If this is the stage he’s at now, it just shows how much work is left to do and how long it will be before we see a fit for purpose, production quality engine. As for the back drop… :ooh:
Not the greatest contribution from his marketing team!

[206 jock]

Do people really think that this aircraft will be flying in 2024? That's my hat safe if not - my shoe was already saved by the lack of flight in 2023.

More like 2026...if at all.

[206Fan]

(1138) First Walkthrough Of The Hill HX50!!! - YouTube

[206 jock]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x172/12_f4bfcefd7794099e1b2eb882df19f31c5e670a12.jpg
H99, I'm struggling to understand whether you are a sceptic or a Hilleiver?

But constabtly cutting ans pasting from the Hill website is wasting everyone's time. After all, here's a quote for you:

"First flight is on schedule for 2022, followed by first customer deliveries in 2023."

Read more at https://www.helihub.com/2021/06/15/over-200-orders-for-the-hill-hx50-everything-on-schedule-for-first-flight-and-deliveries/

So how did that work out, exactly?

Anyway, I have fixed it for you
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1282/untitled_f9cc68e229ee38160a0baaff5c1e9362f03f3226.png

[DroneDog]

A few days ago, they showed a test rig for a combustion chamber working; the combustion chamber was burning and doing its thing. So progress is being made.
But even if the engine and gearbox never appear, what is to stop Hill from buying and installing existing solutions from other manufacturers?