Hill Helicopters HX50

[admikar]

I wonder what the legacy manufacturers think of Hill? Is it #1 item on the agenda of every Board meeting they hold? Is one (or more) of them lining up a purchase of the upstart to take them out of the equation (is that JH's real plan?)?

Or are they mostly concerned that there are few potential purchasers holding off buying one of their machines as they are Hill 'buyers'.

Who knows, eh?
It worked for Marenco.

[hargreaves99]

"Is one (or more) of them lining up a purchase of the upstart to take them out of the equation (is that JH's real plan?)?"

Mmmmm...

Our friend CRAN posted this in Jan 2020

https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/629252-leonardo-buy-kopter-185m.html

(I am pretty sure Jason Hill checks this HX50 thread everyday)

[Hughes500]

206 having paid the running costs on 300/500/341/206/350 i wouldnt give Airbus my vote, in fact all the manufacturers are in league as to who can rip the customer off the most. Trim actuator went in one of the 500's yesterday PMA new one $ 15000, i daren't ask about an OEM one. So that is £ 12000 of your best beer tokens for a small electric motor moving a rod and spring .....really

[Bell_ringer]

I keep meeting more and more people in the UK that have placed a deposit on one.

Hill must be pissing off the major manufacturers a bit, one helicopter sales broker did say to me that Hill was hoovering up a lot of sales that would have gone to the R44/R66/B505/EC120 etc

I doubt it. The traditional manufacturers have a certified product that you can use for silly things like making money.
This will hurt Robbie (eventually) and their traditional market, as well as the pre-owned market. I doubt the big guys are losing any sleep.

[206 jock]

I doubt it. The traditional manufacturers have a certified product that you can use for silly things like making money.
This will hurt Robbie (eventually) and their traditional market, as well as the pre-owned market. I doubt the big guys are losing any sleep.
I am sure that you are right, but of course Hill has an eye on certification (HC50) .....and the recent odd reference to a bigger machine in the pipeline.

This latter thing is what's pricking my interest of late. Why bother mentioning that when you still have nothing that turns in your workshop? Unless of course, you have an agenda. The dream of any 'disruptor' is to sell out (for megabucks).

[hargreaves99]

The dream of any 'disruptor' is to sell out (for megabucks).


Mmm, yes, good point. There is an awful lot of hype, belief and a very large order book, so I can easily see him selling out, or at least getting a sh*tload of Venture Capital funding (once it flies in err <insert your guess here>)

[Bell_ringer]

Hill has an eye on certification (HC50) .....and the recent odd reference to a bigger machine in the pipeline.


Indeed, there is complete overlap with his certified/kit single.
The twin I just suspect is just an intellectual moist dream and, if it ever got that far, is a long, long way away.
It is a very different market, one that tends to favour utility over glamour, which is at odds with his design philosophy.
Unless you're the wealthy bloke in the back, in which case saving a few bucks and buying a "lesser" brand doesn't appeal.
If he can position a machine of that spec at traditional certified single-engined money, that would be a different kettle of fish.
His dance card is full enough getting the experiment working, let alone getting it certified and proving it is reliable and safe in the wild.
I won't start baking that humble pie just yet.

[CGameProgrammerr]

I agree with Bell_ringer; there is no way he can get an entire helicopter certified so quickly, along with the engine and avionics which are also not certified. There is a reason manufacturers almost never introduce new types and instead introduce variations of existing types. Even most Robinsons are used for training or tours (which the HX50 can't be used for) so really none of the current helicopter manufacturers will be too badly affected. But if somehow the HC50 does eventually get fully certified then that's when things will change dramatically. But I think it may never happen.

[admikar]

Interesting twist: Hill owes around 45 million. If he does sell and new owner decides that it either needs a price hike (likely) or bins it completely (even more likely due to fixed price contracts), it's on the hook for extra 45 mil. I don't think Hill will see a lot of money out of this.

[Resident_01]

Submission of an EIA required ......

Clearly impacting our hamlet and surrounding areas.

Told you .... this will never happen !

Better get " plan B " planning application in as schmoozing with Barratt isnt working.

[hargreaves99]

I am not so sure. "money talks", and there will be huge pressure on the council to approve this planning application. investment and jobs in the area etc etc

especially if Hill manage to submit a "sympathetic"/"fudged"* noise impact assessment

*delete as approproate

[Resident_01]

[QUOTE=hargreaves99;11494941]I am not so sure. "money talks", and there will be huge pressure on the council to approve this planning application. investment and jobs in the area etc etc

especially if Hill manage to submit a "sympathetic"/"fudged"* noise impact

There is also huge pressure from residents and council members against it.
This development will also be next to a 162 ish housing development the owner of the land has also submitted.
Honestly you couldnt make it up.
Report on Staffs Moorland website

[Agile]

206 having paid the running costs on 300/500/341/206/350 i wouldnt give Airbus my vote, in fact all the manufacturers are in league as to who can rip the customer off the most. Trim actuator went in one of the 500's yesterday PMA new one $ 15000, i daren't ask about an OEM one. So that is £ 12000 of your best beer tokens for a small electric motor moving a rod and spring .....really
I know, I took one of these apart recently, for a bit of reverse engineering thinking exercise

It has many small machined parts that are quite complex.
it has a custom motor made by Maxon, a swiss maker that also made motors for the Mars rover
It has several Layers of quality control and certification

but most of all, its a small serie, of 100 quantity max (mine has serial number 89).
1000s of man hour for the development, $1000 swiss motor, and all the cost asociated to making things in a non-mass production way

Its not all the OEM fault, its also the helicopter industry is too small to step away from its own R&D cost
I don't think Hill is making it any easier by redoing everything, every single component himself.

As his operation, (Hill Helicopters) matures he will becomes just like the other OEMs, bound by the same economic rules.
but at that time, you the customer will have no other choice than to eat from his "vertically-integrated" supply chain.

[Hughes500]

Agile, i understand that but let's be honest it is way over engineered for what it actually is and does! I have to disagree that the motor and gearbox were designed entirely for a Hughes 500 ! plus they have made 8000 Hughes 500's so not 100, but a small production run over 60 years but an electric motor is an electric motor with effectively a worm drive.
Should have added there is no research and development costs in an electric motor in this day and age ! Bit like the argument for the R and D on hydraulic emergency release on cargo hook, the quality of the part is less than on my hydraulic mountain bike brakes but they are 1/10 of the cost and in more ways a bit more critical to my health and safety

[Bell_ringer]

plus they have made 8000 Hughes 500's so not 100, but a small production run over 60 years but an electric motor is an electric motor with effectively a worm drive.

The point being made is that they are ordering 100 spares at a time, that is a limited run and is inefficient and expensive, the number of airframes made is irrelevant as they don't all exist any longer and the notion that all of them would need a motor simultaneously is ludicrous.
MD has been circling the drain for some time.
When you buy older machines from manufacturers struggling to keep afloat, spares will cost you. That is the trade off for an "affordable" aircraft.

I know a lot of electrical engineers that will tell you that the notion of a "motor being a motor" is plain silly.

When Prophet Hill has actually proven he can produce parts of a high standard, with longevity, then we can revisit this subject. Until then, comparing vapourware banged together in a modern version of a shed, to something produced to certified standards, with the required tooling, doesn't accomplish anything apart from repeat a very tired, broken record.

[hargreaves99]

planning decision delayed again..until 19th Oct 2023....

Planning Applications - Staffordshire Moorlands District Council (http://publicaccess.staffsmoorlands.gov.uk/portal/servlets/ApplicationSearchServlet?PKID=161684)

[admikar]

OK, I 'll give this to Hill. Things like these are outside of his control.

[Bell_ringer]

In this instance I do actually feel for doc Hill, being messed around by the planning process just extends the uncertainty for the business and clients. It can only make a plan B more complicated.

[sandringham1]

Ironic really, years ago aircraft manufacturers established airfields and build aircraft factories on them, now houses are built on the airfields and Mr Hill in battle with the planners.

[Hughes500]

Bellringer
I am afraid you are caught up in the big con from manufacturers . Give you an example of a pressure switch, i know it is made by a local company that sells it to a well known OEM, It is a switch that has no aviation certification until it is given a piece of paper by OEM. Switch sold to OEM for 2000 euros, cost to you and me with a piece of paper 20000 euros ! My next door neighbour used to make RR 250 compressor wheels, cost £ 180 to make I will let you tell me what RR charge for them . I wouldnt mind what goes on in aviation but really ....... one of my pilots used to be a chief auditor for Jaguar Landrover, he was horrified when he came to aviation, his comment was what a joke , no manufacturer would last 10 minutes in the quality of the product compared to automotive ( and that is from Jag Landrover !!!!) here is an example he pulled out. HTC main rotor blades, an issue on debonding of blade from the grip, aviation cure AD check the blade every 200 tq events. Automotive would recall every blade and replace and then immediately, change and improve the process otherwise sued for millions and customers would go else where.

[hargreaves99]

"he's the new Elon Musk"

If I had £1 for every time someone has said that to me....

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Bellringer
I am afraid you are caught up in the big con from manufacturers . Give you an example of a pressure switch, i know it is made by a local company that sells it to a well known OEM, It is a switch that has no aviation certification until it is given a piece of paper by OEM. Switch sold to OEM for 2000 euros, cost to you and me with a piece of paper 20000 euros ! My next door neighbour used to make RR 250 compressor wheels, cost £ 180 to make I will let you tell me what RR charge for them . I wouldnt mind what goes on in aviation but really ....... one of my pilots used to be a chief auditor for Jaguar Landrover, he was horrified when he came to aviation, his comment was what a joke , no manufacturer would last 10 minutes in the quality of the product compared to automotive ( and that is from Jag Landrover !!!!) here is an example he pulled out. HTC main rotor blades, an issue on debonding of blade from the grip, aviation cure AD check the blade every 200 tq events. Automotive would recall every blade and replace and then immediately, change and improve the process otherwise sued for millions and customers would go else where.
Hughes - that's a great comparison except that you're comparing two entirely different industries with entirely different outputs. The volume/commodity industry that is automotive a) has volume of scale and b) doesn't have anywhere near the level of regulation that aviation has (and yes, automotive has regulation but they don't even know they're born compared to aviation regulations!)

The simple truth is that certifying anything in aviation (parts, software, whole aeroplanes) costs a sh*t ton of money as non-recurring engineering cost. So your 2000 buck part that needs a piece of paper legitimately becomes a 20,000 buck part because it probably cost a million bucks worth of engineering to certify a new supplier, and they'll only ever sell 100 of them before the supplier goes under or they change part number or some other ridiculous trivia.

As an example in the app world: coding to aviation safety standards (DO-178) is required for something like a moving map. A VFR aeroplane you'd probably get away with DAL D (the simplest burden). It takes something like 8 - 12 hours of additional testing for every hour spent coding. Compare that to your apps like ForeFlight that have no such burden (because they live in the unregulated commodity space with pretty low average disclaimers saying "don't crash because of us) and it's clear that you've just increased your costs by somewhere between 5 and 10-fold, so a 200 dollar app just became a 2000 dollar one.

Add to that the point of the poster above about small production runs being woefully inefficient (roll on mass 3d printing) and you have your cost. This last part is why a Morgan plus four costs 3 times the price of an Mazda which is undoubtedly superior in every way apart from arguably style.

[Agile]

Hughes - that's a great comparison except that you're comparing two entirely different industries with entirely different outputs. The volume/commodity industry that is automotive a) has volume of scale and b) doesn't have anywhere near the level of regulation that aviation has (and yes, automotive has regulation but they don't even know they're born compared to aviation regulations!)
The parallel between the Auto industry and the Aerospace industry, it never works, it’s just not the same. Dr Hill keeps on gushin: "the refinement you expect for a quality premium vehicle" bla bla, “a pleasing appearance of the windshield trim” bla bla, were does he get these automobile stock marketing statements?
I want my wind shield surrounded with aerospace screws that I can see and I don’t care about the dotted gradient to phase out the windshield black around band, (whatever that is called). Like some sort of flying Lexus.

I want my door handles made of super-premium high strength plastic in the non-pleasing but sturdy design, and I want them from the 3rd party maker that has been making them for all this time and has refined them across multiple markets, aerospace, military, space. Because of that I pay more that it seem to be worth as I see the indirect value to my system.

Another point:
Using 3rd party makers really multiplies your power to fix things, because that is all those partners are doing, and they have the staff to solve the problems. I can see a situation where Hill's vertical supply chain completely falls apart because his staff can only solve one problem at a time. Ball bearing can come up with pretty crazy problems (AW169 Leicester City Football Club) that would take a staff of 30 to solve.
when you have 10 supliers and 10 problems you can have 300 people working for you with a few phone calls.

[Ammo Boiler]

Bellringer
I am afraid you are caught up in the big con from manufacturers . Give you an example of a pressure switch, i know it is made by a local company that sells it to a well known OEM, It is a switch that has no aviation certification until it is given a piece of paper by OEM. Switch sold to OEM for 2000 euros, cost to you and me with a piece of paper 20000 euros ! My next door neighbour used to make RR 250 compressor wheels, cost £ 180 to make I will let you tell me what RR charge for them . I wouldnt mind what goes on in aviation but really ....... one of my pilots used to be a chief auditor for Jaguar Landrover, he was horrified when he came to aviation, his comment was what a joke , no manufacturer would last 10 minutes in the quality of the product compared to automotive ( and that is from Jag Landrover !!!!) here is an example he pulled out. HTC main rotor blades, an issue on debonding of blade from the grip, aviation cure AD check the blade every 200 tq events. Automotive would recall every blade and replace and then immediately, change and improve the process otherwise sued for millions and customers would go else where.

Not these anecdotes again.
Last time I checked automotive did not have components of the same severity and complexity of your example main rotor blade, or the same stringent qualification & certification requirements to satisfy.
Said qualification & certification for the above mentioned main rotor blade can and will consume many millions in engineering costs over several years, a cost to be fronted by the business and recovered from subsequent sales (sales likely being in the range of hundreds at best, compared to the vast quantity of automotive orders). To be blunt the costs you repeatedly quote would not cover the raw material or its treatments.

To "recall immediately, change and improve the process" potentially voiding any current qualification & certification activity, or at best initiating a partial repeat is not as simple as you suggest, remind me how long did Boeing park the Max whilst they changed some code in the software? I'm not saying manufacturers couldn't do better, but simply trying to justify some of the reluctance or delay to make improvements.

Slight thread drift but while on the subject of the much more efficient automotive industry I genuinely only received in 2022 a recall notice for an airbag fault discovered in 2014, I have had the car since new in 2012. Under no stretch of the definition can this either be considered "immediate".

Edit: Apologies, in the time I took to compile several others beat me to it.

Regards

[206 jock]

"he's the new Elon Musk"

If I had £1 for every time someone has said that to me....
It's the first thing that put me off the HX50: all this Aviation 2.0/Disruptor/vertical integration blah blah...JH has read the Elon Musk textbook and decided that he can apply it to aviation.

Even Musk knew he had to rely on externals for his supply chain...for his proof of concept he even re-engineered a Lotus Elise. Hill's oddball commodities in one end/helicopter out the other is fanciful.

[hargreaves99]

https://www.flightglobal.com/helicopters/hill-helicopters-plans-first-engine-run-by-year-end-with-hx50-maiden-sortie-likely-by-mid-2024/154622.article

"A fully certified version called the HC50 will arrive by the end of 2026."

"Timelines for the first flight of the HX50 were not disclosed during the event, but Hill Helicopters says it plans on “starting ground running of the first prototypes by Q2 of next year (2024), with flight tests happening shortly after that”."

Despite the relatively short period allocated for flight testing, Hill Helicopters insists this will not be an issue: “There will be sufficient time to do all the required flight testing on the three prototype aircraft,” it says."

[Bengo]

https://www.flightglobal.com/helicopters/hill-helicopters-plans-first-engine-run-by-year-end-with-hx50-maiden-sortie-likely-by-mid-2024/154622.article

"A fully certified version called the HC50 will arrive by the end of 2026."

"Timelines for the first flight of the HX50 were not disclosed during the event, but Hill Helicopters says it plans on “starting ground running of the first prototypes by Q2 of next year (2024), with flight tests happening shortly after that”."

Despite the relatively short period allocated for flight testing, Hill Helicopters insists this will not be an issue: “There will be sufficient time to do all the required flight testing on the three prototype aircraft,” it says."
Certainly, provided the equally untried engine is fully available whenever the test airframe needs it to be, and, of course, the Hill programme assumes that engine and airframe testing will not throw up any delaying issues. Good Luck with all of those.

N

[PowerPedal]

No negative posts for 10 days!! Don’t tell me you’re all getting tired of hx50 bashing!!

Regardless of whether you’re a “hilliever” or a sceptic, one must at least give credit for the amazing pace of development and shear amount of work that team accomplishes each month.

Just watched the latest update. The pace is truly staggering.

[hargreaves99]

What I find staggering is the choice of presenter for the latest video.

[PowerPedal]

What I find staggering is the choice of presenter for the latest video.

It was presented by Jason Hill- not sure what you mean?

[hargreaves99]

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x381/1_18bf02b65136b6ccff58b4166c98094c46ba3b75.jpg

[[email protected]]

Is this 'staggering pace' referring to the helicopter that should have been flying by now? Asking for a friend.

[admikar]

No negative posts for 10 days!! Don’t tell me you’re all getting tired of hx50 bashing!!

Regardless of whether you’re a “hilliever” or a sceptic, one must at least give credit for the amazing pace of development and shear amount of work that team accomplishes each month.

Just watched the latest update. The pace is truly staggering.
Out of curiosity, what is so staggering about HX50 development? Both technology wise and pace wise?

[hargreaves99]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1838x280/screen_shot_2023_09_20_at_10_44_01_3dead392eb43ff417bcc98d03 7a00304f31f6cdd.png

[PowerPedal]

wrong update. That’s just a side thing by a junior called Milan. Fluffy- forget those.
The latest fortnightly update was 2 days ago by Jason Hill. Great progress

[PowerPedal]

Out of curiosity, what is so staggering about HX50 development? Both technology wise and pace wise?

the pace of progress from one fortnight to the next is impressive. The engine development, avionics, drive train, rotor system, lighting, trim, it all jumps significantly each fortnight.

sure he has missed the mark big time with his date forecasts. No way will there be flying prototypes by early 2024. And definitely won’t be any mass production commencing by end 2024.

but fit a complete fresh sheet ground up design he’s making good progress and I have no doubt at all that he will get something flying over the next year or two.

[hargreaves99]

I have no doubt at all that he will get something flying over the next year or two.

Crab's freezer may need defrosting by then, I hope he has a backup

[[email protected]]

It will be 4 years in December since this project started and it was even then claimed to be advanced - yet here we are still without a flying prototype........

I'll need to buy a new freezer soon.....maybe my humble pie should have been cryogenically preserved

[hargreaves99]

I predict something will fly (ie hover briefly) in Sept 2024

The first few will be delivered in 2026

Anyone with build number over 100 will be waiting until 2028+

[CGameProgrammerr]

Where are you guys seeing the latest update? The YouTube channel hasn't been updated in two weeks.

[admikar]

the pace of progress from one fortnight to the next is impressive. The engine development, avionics, drive train, rotor system, lighting, trim, it all jumps significantly each fortnight.

sure he has missed the mark big time with his date forecasts. No way will there be flying prototypes by early 2024. And definitely won’t be any mass production commencing by end 2024.

but fit a complete fresh sheet ground up design he’s making good progress and I have no doubt at all that he will get something flying over the next year or two.
As far as I can tell, all those things are mostly powerpoint presentations with an odd physical part here and there. Apart from avionics, not a single item you mentioned is new technology. Considering that, jumps you find staggering are..... not really.

[hargreaves99]

wrong update. That’s just a side thing by a junior called Milan. Fluffy- forget those.
The latest fortnightly update was 2 days ago by Jason Hill. Great progress

Errr, the latest video was 16th August 2023. Four weeks ago.

[PowerPedal]

As far as I can tell, all those things are mostly powerpoint presentations with an odd physical part here and there. Apart from avionics, not a single item you mentioned is new technology. Considering that, jumps you find staggering are..... not really.

that’s completely incorrect. They are making actual components and assembling the physical aircraft at a rapid pace.
2 complete aircraft (one with skids, the other retracts) are being manufactured as we speak in time for the launch on 6 Dec. and they appear on track for this.

the regular updates are not available on YouTube to the public- hence why you all seem a little out of date- for example the latest 30 min update by JH this week was only visible via the Hill App for people with orders.

[PowerPedal]

Errr, the latest video was 16th August 2023. Four weeks ago.

Again wrong.
latest update was 18 September. 30 min presentation by Jason himself.
only visible via the App though.

[PowerPedal]

Where are you guys seeing the latest update? The YouTube channel hasn't been updated in two weeks.

via App only. Very detailed 30 min update across all aspects of the program from JH on 18 sept.

big leaps forward

[PowerPedal]

I predict something will fly (ie hover briefly) in Sept 2024

The first few will be delivered in 2026

Anyone with build number over 100 will be waiting until 2028+

prob correct. So what?
if the biggest gripe you have is the timeframe then I’m ok with that.
I flew an R44 again over the weekend for first time in a year (normally fly my EC120) and just reminded me how basic and crappy the Robinson’s are in every aspect. Doors don’t even fit properly. And the R44 costs over US$600k and needs to be completely rebuilt every 12yrs.
If you guys think the Robinson’s are great then fantastic we are not on the same page.

[Shagpile]

Yeah there's information asymmetry here. People who do their research know a lot more about this machine and where it's at than the average punter on here yelling at clouds. It no longer matters what the peanut gallery think; there's about 1000 orders and the only thing stopping it now is JH getting hit by a bus (which I think would only delay it at this point). The timeframe is the only question, but every 2-4 weeks there's a video update given to existing orders through the app, summarised every 1-2 months on a YouTube AMA, where general public get a compressed version due to time constraints.

The last couple of updates had progress in starter generator power electronics development, Digital cockpit, composites & windows, turbine blades, engine casings & plan for combustor tests coming up, lighting. All of the "misc" components like landing gear struts, brackets, metal inserts and the hundred random parts seemed to materialise the last month into almost a full set; that really isn't an issue. I think he said the mast packaging design is frozen and going to production. Seating being re-done with lessons learned from the rest of production to get thinner profile seating. Starting to work on trim. About a dozen other things I've missed, but basically big progress across all fronts, of which there are many.

And reminder, the HX50 is not certified; it's UK CAA permit to fly (read: experimental amateur built in FAA terminology, that has equivalence (https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/international/bilateral_agreements/baa_basa_listing)). But the machine is designed to eventually pass the latest certification standards, and once certified (years from now), will sell as HC50 (in parallel), so (JH's public opinion) the restrictions on your HX50 CoA should be similar to a well built RV (i.e. minimal or no restrictions). The parallel business model is clever; HX50 is much better for private ownership, and those who want to pay £200k extra for the piece of paper to hire/work it, can do so eventually with HC50. He's said about 100 times in his video's where explaining things, x,y,z is designed to the latest certification standards (example: you are not allowed to do a single Jesus bolt any more & HX will have many). Experimental aircraft are allowed to use non-certified high quality parts. So all the hoo ha about "this $100 third party replacement part costs $20,000 with the certificate, and Hill has you by the balls", simply do not apply. Hill's business model is affordable ownership and he's going to underwrite the hull (for cheap) so partner insurance companies can offer affordable insurance. Plus there's a 5 year (5,000hr) nose to tail warranty. I just cannot see a short/medium term situation where the business model is gouging customers like Robison do. In fact Robinson are now dependent on the 12 year rebuild kits to the point where they cannot remove this, and it has created the huge demand void that Hill is filling. See: 1,000 orders.

And my political take is the UK CAA will be under pressure (from post-brexit governments) to support new industry, and not to bog it down in EASA style red tape, so he's swimming with the river current, not against it.

[PowerPedal]

Yeah there's information asymmetry here. People who do their research know a lot more about this machine and where it's at than the average punter on here yelling at clouds. It no longer matters what the peanut gallery think; there's about 1000 orders and the only thing stopping it now is JH getting hit by a bus (which I think would only delay it at this point). The timeframe is the only question, but every 2-4 weeks there's a video update given to existing orders through the app, summarised every 1-2 months on a YouTube AMA, where general public get a compressed version due to time constraints.

The last couple of updates had progress in starter generator power electronics development, Digital cockpit, composites & windows, turbine blades, engine casings & plan for combustor tests coming up, lighting. All of the "misc" components like landing gear struts, brackets, metal inserts and the hundred random parts seemed to materialise the last month into almost a full set; that really isn't an issue. I think he said the mast packaging design is frozen and going to production. Seating being re-done with lessons learned from the rest of production to get thinner profile seating. Starting to work on trim. About a dozen other things I've missed, but basically big progress across all fronts, of which there are many.

And reminder, the HX50 is not certified; it's UK CAA permit to fly (read: experimental amateur built in FAA terminology, that has equivalence (https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/international/bilateral_agreements/baa_basa_listing)). But the machine is designed to eventually pass the latest certification standards, and once certified (years from now), will sell as HC50 (in parallel), so (JH's public opinion) the restrictions on your HX50 CoA should be similar to a well built RV (i.e. minimal or no restrictions). The parallel business model is clever; HX50 is much better for private ownership, and those who want to pay £200k extra for the piece of paper to hire/work it, can do so eventually with HC50. He's said about 100 times in his video's where explaining things, x,y,z is designed to the latest certification standards (example: you are not allowed to do a single Jesus bolt any more & HX will have many). Experimental aircraft are allowed to use non-certified high quality parts. So all the hoo ha about "this $100 third party replacement part costs $20,000 with the certificate, and Hill has you by the balls", simply do not apply. Hill's business model is affordable ownership and he's going to underwrite the hull (for cheap) so partner insurance companies can offer affordable insurance. Plus there's a 5 year (5,000hr) nose to tail warranty. I just cannot see a short/medium term situation where the business model is gouging customers like Robison do. In fact Robinson are now dependent on the 12 year rebuild kits to the point where they cannot remove this, and it has created the huge demand void that Hill is filling. See: 1,000 orders.

And my political take is the UK CAA will be under pressure (from post-brexit governments) to support new industry, and not to bog it down in EASA style red tape, so he's swimming with the river current, not against it.

You’ve put it all perfectly Shagpile. Exciting times ahead. The Jason Hills of the world is what takes us forward, challenges the status quo, and is what we need.
If the world was filled with the likes of Hargreaves99, Admikar, Crab, Bengo, 206Jock, etc we would be just a bunch of grumpy old men looking for things to whinge about but getting absolutely nowhere.
wake up guys. Start looking for positives. Our industry is tired and stale. Don’t accept the status quo.

[[email protected]]

Oh yes, the disruptors theory of technology advancement - worked really well for the Titan sub didn't it?

And one expert submariner who knew all the risks still went down for the last time because he was obsessed with the task (documenting the Titanic wreckage).

Are you sure you aren't being carried along on a FOMO and have your rose-tinted specs permanently installed?

I don't know what the actual helicopter flying experience of you hillophiles is but a lot of the questions are asked by people with many years experience of flying, operating and owning (in some cases) helicopters.

[206 jock]

You’ve put it all perfectly Shagpile. Exciting times ahead. The Jason Hills of the world is what takes us forward, challenges the status quo, and is what we need.
If the world was filled with the likes of Hargreaves99, Admikar, Crab, Bengo, 206Jock, etc we would be just a bunch of grumpy old men looking for things to whinge about but getting absolutely nowhere.
wake up guys. Start looking for positives. Our industry is tired and stale. Don’t accept the status quo.
Finally! I get to join the Grumpy old man club.

Hey PP, chill a bit. It's your money, you spend it how you want, knock yourself out. When you are flying your HX50 in 2026, pop by my place and give me a flight around.

Buy if you feel there is no room for doubt in this whole process, then you are naive. In the meantime, I am sure the GOM will continue to remind everyone of missed deadlines, cans being kicked down the road etc.

[admikar]

Yeah there's information asymmetry here. People who do their research know a lot more about this machine and where it's at than the average punter on here yelling at clouds. It no longer matters what the peanut gallery think; there's about 1000 orders and the only thing stopping it now is JH getting hit by a bus (which I think would only delay it at this point). The timeframe is the only question, but every 2-4 weeks there's a video update given to existing orders through the app, summarised every 1-2 months on a YouTube AMA, where general public get a compressed version due to time constraints.

The last couple of updates had progress in starter generator power electronics development, Digital cockpit, composites & windows, turbine blades, engine casings & plan for combustor tests coming up, lighting. All of the "misc" components like landing gear struts, brackets, metal inserts and the hundred random parts seemed to materialise the last month into almost a full set; that really isn't an issue. I think he said the mast packaging design is frozen and going to production. Seating being re-done with lessons learned from the rest of production to get thinner profile seating. Starting to work on trim. About a dozen other things I've missed, but basically big progress across all fronts, of which there are many.

And reminder, the HX50 is not certified; it's UK CAA permit to fly (read: experimental amateur built in FAA terminology, that has equivalence (https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/international/bilateral_agreements/baa_basa_listing)). But the machine is designed to eventually pass the latest certification standards, and once certified (years from now), will sell as HC50 (in parallel), so (JH's public opinion) the restrictions on your HX50 CoA should be similar to a well built RV (i.e. minimal or no restrictions). The parallel business model is clever; HX50 is much better for private ownership, and those who want to pay £200k extra for the piece of paper to hire/work it, can do so eventually with HC50. He's said about 100 times in his video's where explaining things, x,y,z is designed to the latest certification standards (example: you are not allowed to do a single Jesus bolt any more & HX will have many). Experimental aircraft are allowed to use non-certified high quality parts. So all the hoo ha about "this $100 third party replacement part costs $20,000 with the certificate, and Hill has you by the balls", simply do not apply. Hill's business model is affordable ownership and he's going to underwrite the hull (for cheap) so partner insurance companies can offer affordable insurance. Plus there's a 5 year (5,000hr) nose to tail warranty. I just cannot see a short/medium term situation where the business model is gouging customers like Robison do. In fact Robinson are now dependent on the 12 year rebuild kits to the point where they cannot remove this, and it has created the huge demand void that Hill is filling. See: 1,000 orders.

And my political take is the UK CAA will be under pressure (from post-brexit governments) to support new industry, and not to bog it down in EASA style red tape, so he's swimming with the river current, not against it.
That's great.
But why? If video is already there, why not put it out for all of us, it can only attract more attention?

[[email protected]]

And Frank Robinson - a definite disruptor in the helicopter business - took only two years from founding the company to having his first one flying.

Shagpile, you have no idea about the longevity of Hills design so complaining about Robinsons 12-year rebuild is very premature.

Is Hill really doing anything different from the big manufacturers? The main thing I can see is he is using your money to do it instead of getting the investment from the markets.

[SWBKCB]

And my political take is the UK CAA will be under pressure (from post-brexit governments) to support new industry, and not to bog it down in EASA style red tape, so he's swimming with the river current, not against it.

Good luck withn that one!

[admikar]

You’ve put it all perfectly Shagpile. Exciting times ahead. The Jason Hills of the world is what takes us forward, challenges the status quo, and is what we need.
If the world was filled with the likes of Hargreaves99, Admikar, Crab, Bengo, 206Jock, etc we would be just a bunch of grumpy old men looking for things to whinge about but getting absolutely nowhere.
wake up guys. Start looking for positives. Our industry is tired and stale. Don’t accept the status quo.
I'm sure JH is here, watching. You guys that are buying HX50 are quite happy to accept delays (not that you have any other choice at this point). We, the GOM, are the ones keeping heat under Hill's feet to move along as fast as he can.
You should actually say thank you to us.

[hargreaves99]

I would love JH to achieve all what he promises. I think he will get something in the air, close-ish to his specs, but it will be years and years before he's making 500 a year,

JH checks this forum at 7am everyday, so yes, he is watching. It would be great if he contributed here, to shut up all us "doom-mongerers"!

[topradio]

That's great.
But why? If video is already there, why not put it out for all of us, it can only attract more attention?
My thoughts exactly

Many years ago I was handed a video and told to watch it and not tell anybody else. Excitedly I pushed it into the VCR and pressed play. Up came the Amway logo and I pressed eject and handed it back

[Agile]

In the latest edition of Vertical magazine, they had a helicopter manufacturer survey involving 1300 industry professionals, I was surprise to see Guimbal doing so well
the point is, there is room for the small players like hill helicopters to change the industry for the better it seems.
although more agressive the hill aproach has some roots in the guimbal model: "renewing the model that robinson pioneered for the R22"



https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1323x1500/untitled3_fc2751f506b36f80240fe374fbe526cd076e459b.png

[VM325]

Oh yes, the disruptors theory of technology advancement - worked really well for the Titan sub didn't it?

And one expert submariner who knew all the risks still went down for the last time because he was obsessed with the task (documenting the Titanic wreckage).

Are you sure you aren't being carried along on a FOMO and have your rose-tinted specs permanently installed?

I don't know what the actual helicopter flying experience of you hillophiles is but a lot of the questions are asked by people with many years experience of flying, operating and owning (in some cases) helicopters.

Except Stockton Rush was a self-confessed maverick rule-breaker who refused to have any form of oversight from anyone in any authority.
As far as I've seen, Hill are working closely with the CAA..?

[[email protected]]

Except Stockton Rush was a self-confessed maverick rule-breaker who refused to have any form of oversight from anyone in any authority.
As far as I've seen, Hill are working closely with the CAA..? A fair point re Rush but the French chap, who should have known much, much better, went along with him despite knowing the risks.

As for working with the CAA, you don't have a choice if you want a permit to fly aircraft - and Hill don't have one yet.

[PowerPedal]

And Frank Robinson - a definite disruptor in the helicopter business - took only two years from founding the company to having his first one flying..

Then took another 4 years before entering production…


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/920x2000/img_1734_297b2371f84723de6f6ddb65d78c43ea14fd7a81.png

[PowerPedal]

Out of curiosity, what is so staggering about HX50 development? Both technology wise and pace wise?

Clean sheet design. New in house turbine engine. First carbon monocoque helicopter. All for under US600k

[[email protected]]

Then took another 4 years before entering production… And Hill is already 2 years behind Robinson so how will that affect the waiting list? Don't forget Frank produced a fully certified helicopter and not an experimental one in that time.

Clean sheet design. New in house turbine engine. First carbon monocoque helicopter. All for under US600k So he keeps claiming but until it is flying and has its permit to fly, they are still just claims.

I wonder if you have thought that a heavy landing in a carbon monocoque aircraft will likely write it off - carbon fibre and other composites are light and strong but not great at impact resistance.

[ShyTorque]

I'd be happy to see any new and innovative helicopter, or any good engineering project/product that fulfilled all hopes and promises.

However, despite my initial enthusiasm, old age and guile coupled with a basic understanding of engineering made me hold back on placing a deposit for another, far less ambitious crowdfunded project, about ten years ago. I can't help but see the many similarities to this project. They never ended up with a factory and the only salaries paid were to the immediate production team.

https://www.eliomotors.com/

I'm glad I didn't part with any cash. I received a lot of unwarranted criticism for saying that I couldn't believe the company hype on the sadly mis-named "Owners" forum. Many folk on low incomes who thought they were buying into something really good ended up with a $1,000 T shirt and a bumper sticker, but no car. The projected retail price was going to be $6800 for a new vehicle that was going to do 84 mpg (US). They wasted loads of money on a brand new engine of their own design, when there were suitable, tried and tested engines already on the market. They should really have made it an EV from the start, but that's a different topic.

https://www.elioowners.com/threads/what-is-the-latest-start-production-date.7865/

[212man]

I wonder if you have thought that a heavy landing in a carbon monocoque aircraft will likely write it off - carbon fibre and other composites are light and strong but not great at impact resistance.

​​​​​​​Better let the Formula 1 teams know……

[[email protected]]

An interesting comparison ShyTorque, lots of 'believers' on that forum despite the clear problems in funding and production.

[[email protected]]

Better let the Formula 1 teams know…… how much of the frame do they use after a smash?

Look at the amount of carbon fibre debris shed after a simple wheel to wing contact.

You can't bend composites back into shape.

​​​​​​​You can make them survivable in a crash - as we see most weeks in F1 - but you don't re-use much afterwards.

[Shagpile]

Shagpile, you have no idea about the longevity of Hills design so complaining about Robinsons 12-year rebuild is very premature.

So a helicopter well hangared & looked after, doing 40hrs/year private ownership, will do 480hrs in 12 years. What exactly in this situation requires it to be rebuilt in 12 years? Simply put, Robinson are taking the piss with their blanket one-size-fits-all manufacturer's recommendation, which essentially must be followed. I bet they really hate all those forced kit sales from existing owners.

Hill is aiming for 5,000 hrs on all major components (on inspection). For example to certify Diesel (which is commonly requested, but he hasn't committed to) he said will take an extra £1m pounds (5000hrs * 130L/hr * £1.50). He's stated publicly some modern parts well maintained can be made to last up to 20,000 hrs so the 5,000 service interval should for the most part be good to go. The idea is that to eventually certify everything for 5,000 hrs (required for HC50). He needs to flog his engines & prototypes so they stay the fleet leaders, and needs to be absolutely certain they last much longer than 5,000 hrs, because if they fail at 4999, it's start again. So these parts are designed to last much longer.

Yeah of course there will be teething issues. Name any aircraft with none. And I'm sure after the first AD comes out, the Fabulous Five will predictably wave their fists at the sky in righteousness, whilst happily filling in the paperwork for their second Robby rebuild kit.

[hargreaves99]

Yes, the Robinson rebuild issue is an expensive pain in the ar*e (that kiboshes private owners who don't fly much), as is the stupid crappy t-bar cyclic, and the leaky doors, and the two-bladed "wobble" factor.

But the R44 is safe proven, safe, certified technology that can be used for private, training and commercial work, with the backup of a large manufacturer that's been in business for 40+ years, with a bulletproof proven engine with millions of hours on it. And an R44 is easy to sell if you don't want it anymore.

Hill have some fancy CGI videos, some machined parts, a couple of carbon fibre shells and £50 million in deposits. But no working engine or prototype.

You pays your money and you takes your choice....

[Lonewolf_50]

PowerPedal: can you share with us what your affiliation with Hill Helicopters is?
I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I am getting a feeling of 'promoter' as I read your inputs to this discussion.

[PowerPedal]

PowerPedal: can you share with us what your affiliation with Hill Helicopters is?
I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I am getting a feeling of 'promoter' as I read your inputs to this discussion.

haha no affiliation. Just a private helicopter pilot from Sydney that owns an EC120 and has a deposit down on a HX50, I’m not Jason Hill if that what you’re getting at!! 🤣

I’m realise the HX50 program has a lot of risks- In- house engine development for one is a very risky undertaking, a path that no other heli manufacturer has taken, and for good reason! And I’m pretty much ignoring Hills timeframe estimates because as we all agree they are completely unrealistic.

However I’ve been reading this forum now for many months and just dismayed by the constant negativity coming through and feeling compelled to say something. It’s hard for me to understand how a bunch of helicopter pilots (I’m presuming everyone here actually does fly helis??) can be so ready to knock a new heli offering. There’s so much to like about this design and the philosophy behind it, esp for the private owner.

[bellblade2014]

Yeah there's information asymmetry here. People who do their research know a lot more about this machine and where it's at than the average punter on here yelling at clouds. It no longer matters what the peanut gallery think; there's about 1000 orders and the only thing stopping it now is JH getting hit by a bus (which I think would only delay it at this point). The timeframe is the only question, but every 2-4 weeks there's a video update given to existing orders through the app, summarised every 1-2 months on a YouTube AMA, where general public get a compressed version due to time constraints.

The last couple of updates had progress in starter generator power electronics development, Digital cockpit, composites & windows, turbine blades, engine casings & plan for combustor tests coming up, lighting. All of the "misc" components like landing gear struts, brackets, metal inserts and the hundred random parts seemed to materialise the last month into almost a full set; that really isn't an issue. I think he said the mast packaging design is frozen and going to production. Seating being re-done with lessons learned from the rest of production to get thinner profile seating. Starting to work on trim. About a dozen other things I've missed, but basically big progress across all fronts, of which there are many.

And reminder, the HX50 is not certified; it's UK CAA permit to fly (read: experimental amateur built in FAA terminology, that has equivalence (https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/international/bilateral_agreements/baa_basa_listing)). But the machine is designed to eventually pass the latest certification standards, and once certified (years from now), will sell as HC50 (in parallel), so (JH's public opinion) the restrictions on your HX50 CoA should be similar to a well built RV (i.e. minimal or no restrictions). The parallel business model is clever; HX50 is much better for private ownership, and those who want to pay £200k extra for the piece of paper to hire/work it, can do so eventually with HC50. He's said about 100 times in his video's where explaining things, x,y,z is designed to the latest certification standards (example: you are not allowed to do a single Jesus bolt any more & HX will have many). Experimental aircraft are allowed to use non-certified high quality parts. So all the hoo ha about "this $100 third party replacement part costs $20,000 with the certificate, and Hill has you by the balls", simply do not apply. Hill's business model is affordable ownership and he's going to underwrite the hull (for cheap) so partner insurance companies can offer affordable insurance. Plus there's a 5 year (5,000hr) nose to tail warranty. I just cannot see a short/medium term situation where the business model is gouging customers like Robison do. In fact Robinson are now dependent on the 12 year rebuild kits to the point where they cannot remove this, and it has created the huge demand void that Hill is filling. See: 1,000 orders.

And my political take is the UK CAA will be under pressure (from post-brexit governments) to support new industry, and not to bog it down in EASA style red tape, so he's swimming with the river current, not against it.

possibly the longest uneducated post in this entire thread. You win!

[EXDAC]

I’m realise the HX50 program has a lot of risks- In- house engine development for one is a very risky undertaking, a path that no other heli manufacturer has taken, and for good reason!

I thought Rotorway produced their own engines in house. Not turbines though.

[admikar]

I thought Rotorway produced their own engines in house. Not turbines though.
How dare you! To compare Rotorway to our Hill-god of all things flying?
Power pedal, you are one of the rare few buyers that actually admits that Hill overpromised. So far, he fell short on timeline (some of it admitedly not his fault) and price (with new pricing model increasingly looking like snake oil sales pitch). We still have to see if performance promises will materialize. Last time I checked, all of us were taking shots at any other manufacturer that was talking bull to the public. Just because some people have invested their money into this is no good reason for the rest of us to shut up about the bull coming from Hill's mouth.
Anyway, while he is taking new path, nothing we have seen so far is actually new technology. And while we do have 2 or 3 somewhat finished shells, all the important bits are still missing (yes, I know parts are being made as we speak). Without even taking into the account that those important bits have to work as a whole by themselves and with other important bits, there is a long way ahead.

And somehow supporters of Dr. Hill seem to overlook that all of GOM club members actually said multiple times that we would love to see this helicopter get off the ground.

[Lonewolf_50]

haha no affiliation. Just a private helicopter pilot from Sydney that owns an EC120 and has a deposit down on a HX50 Ok, thanks. Hope it works out. :ok:

[PowerPedal]

How dare you! To compare Rotorway to our Hill-god of all things flying?
Power pedal, you are one of the rare few buyers that actually admits that Hill overpromised. So far, he fell short on timeline (some of it admitedly not his fault) and price (with new pricing model increasingly looking like snake oil sales pitch). We still have to see if performance promises will materialize. Last time I checked, all of us were taking shots at any other manufacturer that was talking bull to the public. Just because some people have invested their money into this is no good reason for the rest of us to shut up about the bull coming from Hill's mouth.
Anyway, while he is taking new path, nothing we have seen so far is actually new technology. And while we do have 2 or 3 somewhat finished shells, all the important bits are still missing (yes, I know parts are being made as we speak). Without even taking into the account that those important bits have to work as a whole by themselves and with other important bits, there is a long way ahead.

And somehow supporters of Dr. Hill seem to overlook that all of GOM club members actually said multiple times that we would love to see this helicopter get off the ground.

Sounds like we are reaching common ground Admikar.
I’m probably going to head over to England in early Dec to see the 2 prototypes at the launch.
i would be very surprised however if mine (serial # 174) gets delivered before the end of 2026.
in the meantime ill be enjoying my EC120- but not enjoying Airbus support or my servicing costs!

[Ascend Charlie]

Speaking of support, PP, how the Hill are you going to get maintenance support for an engine for which engineers in Oz are not certified, and there is no established parts supply chain?

[PowerPedal]

Speaking of support, PP, how the Hill are you going to get maintenance support for an engine for which engineers in Oz are not certified, and there is no established parts supply chain?

hill will train and certifies your local engineer of choice as part of your purchase order. They will supply parts etc. That’s no big deal.

theres already 40 HX50 orders from Australia, and this will grow. I’ve already spoken with my maintenance people who are happy to get involved with maintenance training and support.

[[email protected]]

Powerpedal - are CASA on side with this grand plan?

Do you have a similar 'permit to fly' system for experimental aircraft there?

[PowerPedal]

Powerpedal - are CASA on side with this grand plan?

Do you have a similar 'permit to fly' system for experimental aircraft there?

Dont know. But I would imagine that if FAA approves then CASA will likely follow.

However If for any reason CASA won’t allow HX50 a permit to fly, then our contract of sale stipulates we will be fully refunded including deposit monies.

[Aluminium Mallard]

Dont know. But I would imagine that if FAA approves then CASA will likely follow.

However If for any reason CASA won’t allow HX50 a permit to fly, then our contract of sale stipulates we will be fully refunded including deposit monies.

There are other experimental aircraft here (rotorway, hummingbird etc) so yes they will likely get approval... granted most of those sit in hangars with the owners too scared to fly them.

I've trained two pilots now that have dropped HX50 deposits, both are really smart people with little mechanical knowledge completely convinced by the marketing.

[Bell_ringer]

both are really smart people with little mechanical knowledge completely convinced by the marketing.

I need to hire whoever mixes his cool aid, it is powerful stuff. :E

[Shagpile]

Do you have a similar 'permit to fly' system for experimental aircraft there?

Yep - experimental amateur built aircraft are massive in Australia. I have one.

They are issued a Special Certificate of Airworthiness:
https://www.casa.gov.au/experimental-certificates

CASA recognises UK:
https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/default/files/2021-08/advisory-circular-20-02-recognised-countries-and-international-agreements.pdf

Certification of Amateur Built Aircraft (Part 13 building outside AU):
https://www.casa.gov.au/certification-amateur-built-abaa-aircraft

More on commercial assistance for amateur built aircraft (basically engines/rotors/avionics excluded, but fabrication & assembly required):
https://www.casa.gov.au/commercial-assistance-during-construction-amateur-built-experimental-aircraft-and-amateur-built-aircraft

[Shagpile]

I've trained two pilots now that have dropped HX50 deposits, both are really smart people with little mechanical knowledge completely convinced by the marketing.

I know a few who are in industry or private existing R44 owners. I think what you're seeing is a new market emerge. People who wouldn't have otherwise bought a heli at all, now have a reasonable sub $1m machine that doesn't cost $400k every 12 years. As Hill describes (taking a swipe at Robinson), his market opens up to "People who can afford the capital cost of a helicopter, but who can't afford to lose it". 1000 (paid deposit) orders proves he's onto something...

[Bell_ringer]

Yep - experimental amateur built aircraft are massive in Australia. I have one.

Certification of Amateur Built Aircraft (Part 13 building outside AU):
https://www.casa.gov.au/certification-amateur-built-abaa-aircraft


So limited to 4 seats and 3300 lbs MTOW.
How does the HX fit into that?
They have a fairly detailed list to calculate the 50% fabrication portion, with Hill pre-fabbing a lot of the components, I am curious to see how it complies, it appears to be more assembly than anything else.

[Shagpile]

So limited to 4 seats and 3300 lbs MTOW.
How does the HX fit into that?
They have a fairly detailed list to calculate the 50% fabrication portion, with Hill pre-fabbing a lot of the components, I am curious to see how it complies, it appears to be more assembly than anything else.

Yeah really good question for Australians. I want to track down the answer for this, but it seems the special CoA is unlimited in size & POB (generally), but the ABAA is a sub-category inside there that recognises Amateur Built with those restrictions mentioned. I suspect it will be something along the lines of UK permit, then transfer, rather than an Aussie LAME/Inspector on site. But I could be wrong. Unsure if that happens and it’s outside the ABAA AC, whether owners will have privileges of issuing their own MR’s and things like that as they do with Vans RV’s they built (or have built a similar type).

FAA have a complex formula to determine what constitutes 51% and JH has mentioned several times that commercially assisted build and assembly will comply. Most major components such as engines, gears, avionics, blades (etc) are allowed to come factory built. He mentioned the owner will be involved in composite fuselage layup, and basically all assembly. I’m sure he will get this compliant and if it ticks the FAA formula, it should satisfy every other jurisdiction.

[[email protected]]

He mentioned the owner will be involved in composite fuselage layup, and basically all assembly Unskilled labour involved in the creation of the crucial component of the aircraft, the monocoque fuselage, who could see a problem with that?

[Shagpile]

Unskilled labour involved in the creation of the crucial component of the aircraft, the monocoque fuselage, who could see a problem with that?

This is where lack of knowledge on the project is important, and throw-away comments like this are unhelpful to the casual lurker reading this thread.

In this case, it's literally builder assist & there's an inspection regime afterwards to test for hull integrity & dry spots etc. Thousands of pilots build their own perfectly safe aircraft all the time. Some from kit, some from design, including maintenance critical items such as spars and flight controls. Yep some are horrendous if built fully unqualified with zero assistance and poor quality skills, tools & equipment, but those are the ones that get an inspector put on rigid requirements such as "POB 1, within 10NM of a remote airport, not over or near any built up area. Good luck". This project will not be that kind of aircraft. It'll be more like a high quality RV10 you see that's as good or better than the equivalent factory SR22.

[PowerPedal]

Unskilled labour involved in the creation of the crucial component of the aircraft, the monocoque fuselage, who could see a problem with that?

being negative again Crabby!

The HX50 will be exactly the same as the certified HC50 version, and built to certification standards, but with the following differences:
1. it will be available several years earlier
2. it will be significantly cheaper
3. the purchaser will be involved in the final assembly
4. it cannot be used for any commercial purposes
5. it cannot be retrospectively certified.

It’s tempting to get caught up in the details of exactly what the owner will be contributing to the build to comply with the 51% rule, but I think at the end of the day this will essentially just involve assembly. There are so many items exempt from this 51% and I very much doubt that any customers will actually be laying up carbon fibre!

I am actually really looking forward to the assembly of my own machine as it will allow a much deeper understanding of it.

I have absolutely no interest in x-hiring my HX50 commercially etc. Or moonlighting a few charters! I will be the only one that will be flying my ship, and purely for private recreation and travel so not at all bothered by the lack of certification, provided it is designed and built to the same standards. Would rather get it sooner and cheaper.

[Bell_ringer]

Thousands of pilots build their own perfectly safe aircraft all the time.

True, but none of them represent the complexity of this aircraft.
An RV is nowhere as advanced as what is required for the HX.
Kit build helicopters have been a disaster to date.

[hargreaves99]

The 51% build rule is just a ruse to get the CAA to grant a Permit to Fly. All the owner will be doing is this..

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/262x193/download_650dd82ef02d44cbdb3ef4ae4f4c0a1600dc98a3.jpg

[[email protected]]

This is where lack of knowledge on the project is important, Do you actually know anything about composite materials?

inspection regime afterwards to test for hull integrity & dry spots etc. Accurate and reliable Non destructive testing (NDT) for composites is a holy grail yet to be achieved which is why the layup is critical to eliminate voids which can cause structural failure under load.

As BellRinger says, the HX is far more complex than a microlight at every level - I've flown some and the engineering is pretty basic because it is a homebuild/assisted build..

When we see you potential owners cutting up the pre-preg and operating the autoclave I'll believe it is a 51% build.

[VM325]

Do you actually know anything about composite materials?

Non destructive testing (NDT) for composites is a holy grail yet to be achieved which is why the layup is critical to eliminate voids which can cause structural failure under load.

As BellRinger says, the HX is far more complex than a microlight at every level - I've flown some and the engineering is pretty basic because it is a homebuild/assisted build..

When we see you potential owners cutting up the pre-preg and operating the autoclave I'll believe it is a 51% build.

There's no pre-preg or autoclave involved.
It's dry carbon done under vaccuum infusion...

[[email protected]]

There's no pre-preg or autoclave involved.
It's dry carbon done under vaccuum infusion... it's still not a job for amateur builders and if you are making a monocoque structure, one imperfection, delamination or void means scrapping the whole thing and starting again.

[[email protected]]

Vacuum Infusion ProcessSHORTCOMINGS OF VIPMost of the disadvantages of vacuum infusion are linked to the process’s long set-up time and general handling. Unlike hand lamination, vacuum resin infusion requires one to strategize and develop the optimal vacuum ports and resin injection locations for each composite that is made.

Furthermore, it also requires an experienced hand and can become expensive if there are continuous vacuum leaks as the entire part will have to be binned. Its cosmetic finish is also not as good as open mold processes due to the fabric print; however, this can be amended using a barrier coat.

At this stage of the process’s development, vacuum infusion is more suited to smaller projects. Too much time is required for applications that need high production rates or more complex processes on a mass scale. This is especially true when multiple-use flexible films or top molds are needed for one-off or large parts.

[Shagpile]

Luckily for us, Hill has just spent 2 years working out exactly the layup strategy, vacuum locations, resin parameters, temperatures etc.

I suspect he hired half of Williams F1. And that's the team you want to poach your composites guys from because they are crashing every week and have lots of experience rebuilding the car and keeping the driver alive!!

[hargreaves99]

don't forget he's going to be making 500 aircraft a year.

that's two aircraft rolling off the production line (and being test flown, collected, built by the owner etc) every weekday

maybe i should start a B&B in the area

[admikar]

TBH, I don't think owner will do more than a sniff of resin and be done with layup part.
I do wish for Hill to succeed, if for nothing more than "in your face" to established manufacturers. As long as any person being flown in one of these understands the risks, I'm good with whatever 51% scheme they come out.
That still does not erase all the bull he spouted so far and I fully intend to call it out every time .

[Bell_ringer]

TBH, I don't think owner will do more than a sniff of resin and be done with layup part.
I do wish for Hill to succeed, if for nothing more than "in your face" to established manufacturers. As long as any person being flown in one of these understands the risks, I'm good with whatever 51% scheme they come out.
That still does not erase all the bull he spouted so far and I fully intend to call it out every time .

I just have a bad vibration, that if, when, this aircraft enters production, the culture built around it will create more fiery potholes in the countryside than a Robbie ever could.

[bellblade2014]

Luckily for us, Hill has just spent 2 years working out exactly the layup strategy, vacuum locations, resin parameters, temperatures etc.

I suspect he hired half of Williams F1. And that's the team you want to poach your composites guys from because they are crashing every week and have lots of experience rebuilding the car and keeping the driver alive!!

this is precisely the problem with Hill. Automotive and racing technologies for structural applications are not technically sufficient for helicopters. Composite fatigue is a real thing… and it will delaminate blades, hulls and rotor components very rapidly and catastrophically. All rotorcrafr with composite primary structures are heavier and less damage tolerant as a result. Repairs suck, antenna bonding sucks, and performance in many environments (hot and humid conditions) suck. Metal is easier and more predictable and repairable… but a race car guy will lie to you and tell you the opposite about his helicopter. Smh

[CGameProgrammerr]

There are tons of aircraft (certified) with composite monocoque bodies. This is not new. Many airplanes use carbon-fiber.

I agree with Bell's comment about culture, though I don't blame Hill. They need to market it to get customers, and they're not specifically targeting morons (unlike Icon), but there inevitably will be interest from non-pilots. I was on a zoom meeting with the reps a month ago and one of the other customers on the call was not even a pilot but was interested and asking some (not well-informed, needless to say) questions about it. But I'm sure the vast majority are pilots.

[jeepys]

I do wish Hill success but unfortunately there are too many unanswered questions for me to really believe in it.
People have mentioned that he might have some Ex F1 composite guys on board for the fuselage. If that's the case, then tell us (and show us) rather than standing in front of the camera going through the various steps of the build entirely by yourself trying to make people believe your engineering expertise runs across rotor blade design, engine design, composite structure, gearbox design, hydraulics, electrics etc etc. Yeah sure, he's an intelligent chap, but professional engineers have expertise in one or maybe two areas, not 10. If he has a team of professional engineers with vast expertise in these areas, show and tell as it would give more credibility.

There is a reason why Bell, Agusta, Airbus, Boeing, McD, Embraer, Robinson, Sikorsky and every other aircraft manufacturer use engines designed and built by someone other than themselves. This is another question I have.

I expect he will try and make the tyres as well!!!

Yes, homebuilt fixed wing aircraft are plentiful and some are excellent, like the Vans series for example, however the stresses on a helicopter are completely different and as Crab said, when something lets go, it can often be catastrophic.

One more question, sorry. Many if not most of those that have invested into this are succesful people with some spare cash to chuck about. Would they sell there services, products or whatever there business is for a third of the price they could command? I don't think so, otherwise they wouldn't be so wealthy. If the HX50 can do everything Hill says it can do, he could sell it for three times the price.

Crab, what pie is it?

[[email protected]]

There are tons of aircraft (certified) with composite monocoque bodies. This is not new. Many airplanes use carbon-fiber. Which helicopters have composite monocoque? Fixed wing are easy to build in the stuff - doesn't count.

There are plenty of helicopters with composite bits, including things like tail booms, but they don't take impact damage well and are next to impossible to repair.

Jeepys - it's a hypothetical humble pie for when if Hill produces what he said he will when he said he will.

[[email protected]]

Does anyone know what happened to Composite Helicopters International? They had a similar design paired with a RR300 engine but had one ditching and one heavy landing after vibration issues.

Can't seem to find much more.

So Hill not the first to go down this route.

[Shagpile]

If he has a team of professional engineers with vast expertise in these areas, show and tell as it would give more credibility

He rolls them out all the time. The composites guy is in most videos. He also regularly features avionics, power electronics, some of the CAD design guys. Mentions of the engine people who are specialists in particular fields such as blade or compressor design happens. It's apparent he listens to experts because take the engine: idea started as old school can combustor with 2-stage compressor, 1-stage power, blisk design. That is now an annular combustor (lower profile, more modern), bladed disk (better fatigue life), single stage compressor (couldn't get twin to work with more complex secondary air system sapping off too much air, so logical to switch to single, with associated size/weight/complexity reduction).

Compared to existing manufacturer's & products, this is ultra transparency. But I think it's needed when taking orders from a CAD design.

I expect he will try and make the tyres as well!!!

False. Also not making LCD screens, and **** that makes no sense.

however the stresses on a helicopter are completely different

Which is why the entire thing has gone through finite element analysis, blah blah, and is planned to pass all certification / crash requirements. Which he regularly discusses in detail.

​​​​​​​Would they sell there services, products or whatever there business is for a third of the price they could command? I don't think so, otherwise they wouldn't be so wealthy​​​​​​​

He's not selling for 1/3 the price. I'm #334 and got 29% off (let's call it 2/3). Latest offers are around 10% discount +/- ... it's sliding to no discount after 1000 orders.
Sounds entirely reasonable business idea to me. Pre-sell 1 year worth of orders at cost price (assuming 30% margins normally), 2nd year onwards profitable, at full scale. That's actually epic returns for such a huge undertaking. Use the ~10% deposits for development without diluting shareholdings with capital raising or loans, in order to retain 100% control & direction. Having a massive order book allows appropriate scaling straight to big 500/year factory with minimal overproduction risk. Use HX profit and cashflow, plus HC order book deposits, to fund certification of HC. Use experience of HX50 to de-risk HC50 certification in parallel.

I predict his equity is going to be billionaire status in 10 years (assume 500 orders, 200k GBP profit ea, is 100m GBP profit per year. 10x multiplier = billionaire). Pretty good from starting with a few million in equity and grants.

I'm getting bull**** correction fatigue. See: Brandolini's Law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini%27s_law):
"The amount of energy needed to refute bull**** (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull****) is an order of magnitude (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_magnitude) bigger than that needed to produce it."
And this comic haha
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/601x659/duty_calls_2x_1cc5851c90fa57718f6cb64f8a40d2eac7696da4.png

[CGameProgrammerr]

Which helicopters have composite monocoque?
The Cabri G2.

[admikar]

You just lost me at **** that does not make sense. You mean **** like door handles?

[Agile]

You just lost me at **** that does not make sense. You mean **** like door handles?
like the position lights, like the bearings, and the big one: The Engine.

The Cabri G2.
The cabri G2 has two sections in carbon the cabin and the tail boom joined by a traditional tubular sub section
smarter in many ways:

modules are small enough to fit in lower cost autoclave (no infusion)
high stress attachment points (engine / transmission) are diffused away by the metal frame.
another specialized company does it


Which is why the entire thing has gone through finite element analysis, blah blah, and is planned to pass all certification / crash requirements. Which he regularly discusses in detail.
​​​
FEA for composite materials is a very immature science, easy to model homogeneous materials like metal, quite another thing to predict behaviour of multi materials, especially with the variability of the infusion process.
I especially worry about those lifting rod attachement points in the picture below, if they go bad, the fuselage is a write off.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1882x1475/hx50_rotor_d2129c349774c18d431c4f4d207d007687df017a.png

[hargreaves99]

Well, we are not going to know anything more about specs, timelines etc until..

a) the engine is running and tested

and

b) prototype built, flying and tested

and

c) factory built and production properly started

and

d) aircraft delivered to owners and they are flying them

Everything up to this point is plans, conjecture, mockups, predictions, theories, videos, some parts machined, a couple of shell hulls, promises, and/or BS.

[[email protected]]

Everything up to this point is plans, conjecture, mockups, predictions, theories, videos, promises, and/or BS. But he's got shagpile's (and others) money so they have to believe it all.

[[email protected]]

Cgameprogrammerr - for you https://www.abbottaerospace.com/aa-sb-001/22-aircraft-specific-design-features-and-design-methods/22-12-53-fuselage/22-12-2-monocoque-type/

[206 jock]

I keep reading this '500 per year' rubbish. Anyone who believes this will ever happen is naive in the extreme. Given that customers must complete a 2 week build, that's 20 completion bays, running all year. All supplied with parts on a continuous basis, so there are no shortages? Ever?

And err....do you really think that the order bank will continue to grow at a continuous rate? That those very same completion bays will be required after say 5 years of production?

Let's be honest: Hill is funding his development by continually seeking more deposits. And promising undeliverable timescales on an ongoing basis. If he was honest, the deposits would dry up and the development put under threat.

To remind you, first flight was supposed to be in 2022 and first deliveries in 2023. Now first flight is 2024 (but it won't be, imho). So the important milestones have been missed by a factor of 2 and I don't believe in the new ones. And before the howls of protestation about Covid having changed the landscape and blah blah, the original announcement was in August 2020...you can find it right at the start of this thread.

[jeepys]

Shag,
what will be the normal undiscounted price for a HX50?

[hargreaves99]

"predict his equity is going to be billionaire status in 10 years"

CRAN - what do you think of this prediction?!

[jeepys]

Well, he's a multi millionnaire already with all those deposits!

[VM325]

like the position lights, like the bearings, and the big one: The Engine.


The cabri G2 has two sections in carbon the cabin and the tail boom joined by a traditional tubular sub section
smarter in many ways:

modules are small enough to fit in lower cost autoclave (no infusion)
high stress attachment points (engine / transmission) are diffused away by the metal frame.
another specialized company does it


FEA for composite materials is a very immature science, easy to model homogeneous materials like metal, quite another thing to predict behaviour of multi materials, especially with the variability of the infusion process.
I especially worry about those lifting rod attachement points in the picture below, if they go bad, the fuselage is a write off.



I suspect that Boeing, Airbus, the F1 industry, marine industry, wind farm blade industry and many others might disagree.
According to my (Aerospace Phd) son, things have moved on in the last few years...

[PowerPedal]

To remind you, first flight was supposed to be in 2022 and first deliveries in 2023. Now first flight is 2024 (but it won't be, imho). So the important milestones have been missed by a factor of 2

yep you are right 206Jock. He’s been way off with his timelines. Agree nothing airborne till end 2024 and nothing in production till 2026 and even then will be ambitious to produce 100 in first year.

so what? Agree it’s a bit misleading and JH should know better being an engineer with 20 yrs experience in aviation, and yes probably does it to enhance deposit sales which funds Development. Does that really rubbish the whole thing though? Other than timeframes do you have any other major criticisms of the hx50?

[admikar]

We can't criticize anything else (if there is anything to criticize), since nothing else exists in the first place

[PowerPedal]

We can't criticize anything else (if there is anything to criticize), since nothing else exists in the first place
haha you guys are a tough crowd to please!! Just watched the latest update this morning (available to deposit holders only via the App) and again the Hill team have been busy manufacturing all sorts of components for the 2 demo aircraft that will be launched on Dec 7. Heaps done since the last update 2 weeks ago.

Anyone who says nothing actually exists, or it is all CGI stuff, simply doesn't know what they are talking about.

The next publicly available update is scheduled for next week. looking forward to hearing the negative comments from the famous 5 more that the update!

[Agile]

I suspect that Boeing, Airbus, the F1 industry, marine industry, wind farm blade industry and many others might disagree.
According to my (Aerospace Phd) son, things have moved on in the last few years...
Yes I get that there are developments above the know art available to the experts, I would take F1 out because they are not designing durable goods, I would take Marine out because the strength to weight ratio is not a real concern
That leave Boeing and Airbus, that kind of tech they have I am not sure is within reach of Hill.
Yes the A350 is carbon wound and I am sure they did not guess it to be a good design, but they use prepreg composite that gives a very controlable fiber to resin ratio, while Hill infusion process is still sorting out to avoid resin dry areas.

[206 jock]

Other than timeframes do you have any other major criticisms of the hx50?

JH knows his timescales were made up (he Pm'd me to say exactly that, when he was pretending to be someone else).

And otherwise?

- The made up price point The £495k initial price was chosen to sound like it's similar to a supercar. It just cannot be done.

- Why build his own engine?

- Why is his corporate structures so complex?

- Why does he have no employees?

- Why does he have his personal fingers in absolutely everything? Design, manufacture, finance, procurement, insurance etc etc

- What happens if JH gets runs over by a bus?

​​​​​​Other than the above, sign me up! Seriously, I weirdly hope that I am being a sceptic, that it all works out and I will tip my hat to you brave guys that made it happen. And I will regret not selling my legacy Bell 206 while the prices were high.

[Bell_ringer]

We're obviously all misinformed because we miss the 2-weekly group masturbatathons.
I am positive the additional 22 types of ball bearings are the bestest ball bearings ever to bear balls. With the super door handles, revolutionary packaged rotor system, and made better and cheaper with maritime and other consumer techniques, all unproven in aviation applications, or even commercial production at any meaningful scale.
But that is just a lack of vision talking > insert random Elon Musk comparison here <.
The proof of the pudding isn't in making something that survives a ground run or hover test, but that it lasts long enough to deliver on the many promises and proposed shelf life, ideally leaving the cool aid drinker in one, uncharred piece in the process.

I would say there is a lot of water to flow under the bridge, but there is neither a bridge nor water, so I shall get back to baking my pie (traditional apple seems best).

[hargreaves99]

".... components for the 2 demo aircraft that will be launched on Dec 7"

err.... are two prototypes really being launched in two months? i thought the engine wasn't even running yet?

[admikar]

Who said anything about running demo?

[Bell_ringer]

err.... are two prototypes really being launched in two months? i thought the engine wasn't even running yet?

Rumour has it he has hired these guys to get it flying in time
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/824x550/demo_4d2fa1040f7fdbb9cfb96e52eea1df27464a73c5.png

[Cyril Lambiel]

I'm sure Mr Hugues must be very happy to learn from where he flies that in the 21st century his rotor system is still recognized as revolutionary!
The system shown in the caption above is nothing else than the Hugues design...may be fitted with special bearings somewhere around..!

[hargreaves99]

what's a non-running demo?

[Salusa]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/719x537/screenshot_20230927_234055_duckduckgo_a35cb403980e4cc6a46374 30d5f1d1d8aa3a3304.jpg
Fell off the fence. Massive 3D Printer and smoke screen. It's a pipe dream at best.

Build your own Turboshaft
Build your own Hydraulics
Build your own Electrics
Etc etc etc...

Drill down between all the weak points.

I respect Hill for having a dream but that's all it is. Maybe in 100 years when Tech can print out full components and spares.

​​​​​​I will eat my old underpants and humble pie if Hill deposit holders get anything before 2030.

It's a pipe dream and at best you are just funding research.

Not a bad thing, but research is in the wrong country. Planning permission, environmental factors, blah blah.

It will be delay, delay, delay..

If anyone can tell me the last successful aerospace company that started from scratch in UK.?

Cheers,
Sal


​​​​​

[Salusa]

I'm sure Mr Hugues must be very happy to learn from where he flies that in the 21st century his rotor system is still recognized as revolutionary!
The system shown in the caption above is nothing else than the Hugues design...may be fitted with special bearings somewhere around..!

Ball Bearings?

Coat, jacket,

[jeepys]

Funding research and no doubt a comfy lifestyle!

[Salusa]

Funding research and no doubt a comfy lifestyle!

ala DeLorean

[KiwiNedNZ]

[email protected] Composite used to be based here in NZ with Peter Maloney running it. Yes they had an accident in Auckland Harbour but carried on for a while after that. Then some company called Innova Aerospace from US bought them and moved it all to the US back in 2015. Then it just dissapeared.

Since then nothing. They put over 250 hours on their aircraft before being bought by Innova.

Their website URL is up for sale.

[CGameProgrammerr]

A non-running demo is precisely what car manufacturers use for demoing early pre-production cars. They have journalists, or the public at auto shows, sit in what appears to be a working car, possibly play with the infotainment system and some other things, check out the interior, do a walk around of the exterior, etc., but there's no engine or other necessary components. It's weird for you guys to pretend like it's some alien concept. Obviously we're all waiting impatiently for them to develop a working engine, hopefully followed by a flying prototype, but this is just one milestone.

[Bell_ringer]

A non-running demo is precisely what car manufacturers use for demoing early pre-production cars. They have journalists, or the public at auto shows, sit in what appears to be a working car, possibly play with the infotainment system and some other things, check out the interior, do a walk around of the exterior, etc., but there's no engine or other necessary components. It's weird for you guys to pretend like it's some alien concept. Obviously we're all waiting impatiently for them to develop a working engine, hopefully followed by a flying prototype, but this is just one milestone.

Car manufacturers use the word "concept" not demo, nor prototype. There is no commitment it will ever drive, or if it will, that it is the following year.
It is this weak whataboutism that Hill uses to drift in and out of sales mode to secure more deposits.
No car manufacturer is showing you possible future product, and at the same time getting you to pay a deposit on one.
Nice try though.

[CGameProgrammerr]

I'm not talking about concepts. A pre-production model is not a concept. I have sat in plenty of non-working demos for actual real cars that went on sale soon after. They were not concepts. This has been around for many decades.

[admikar]

I'm not talking about concepts. A pre-production model is not a concept. I have sat in plenty of non-working demos for actual real cars that went on sale soon after. They were not concepts. This has been around for many decades.
If it's not working then it is not a demo. You can call however you want, but demo is not it.

[[email protected]]

A pre-production model is not a concept. It is when the pre-production model has not turned a wheel (or rotor) - when the pre-production model has a working engine, gearboxes, rotor system, hydraulics etc, etc etc and just needs to start the production process with everything finalised - then it is not a concept - otherwise it's just more HX50 porn clickbait.

[Salusa]

I'm not talking about concepts. A pre-production model is not a concept. I have sat in plenty of non-working demos for actual real cars that went on sale soon after. They were not concepts. This has been around for many decades.

Name one please.

Were any of the "cars" from a a start up?

Again refer to the DeLorean.

[[email protected]]

KiwiNedNZ - looks like Innova Aerospace stopped trading in 2018.

[212man]

how much of the frame do they use after a smash?

Look at the amount of carbon fibre debris shed after a simple wheel to wing contact.

You can't bend composites back into shape.

You can make them survivable in a crash - as we see most weeks in F1 - but you don't re-use much afterwards.
All true - I focused more on this bit:carbon fibre and other composites are light and strong but not great at impact resistance.

[hargreaves99]

how do HH know that aircraft won't vibrate enough over time to crack the carbon fibre shell, or break the engine /gearbox mounting points? is it really possible to model this kind of thing to anyegree of certainty before hand?

[admikar]

I guess modern modelling software is capable of simulating that, but overdesign as a precaution?

[Agile]

how do HH know that aircraft won't vibrate enough over time to crack the carbon fibre shell, or break the engine /gearbox mounting points? is it really possible to model this kind of thing to anyegree of certainty before hand?
that was my point exactly. I think it is only possible at the large budget OEM. With large scale test jigs running for years. The H160 is an example of that.

[HeliHenri]

.
Yeah sure, he's an intelligent chap, but professional engineers have expertise in one or maybe two areas, not 10. If he has a team of professional engineers with vast expertise in these areas, show and tell as it would give more credibility.

Must be difficult to find 10 avalable such professional engineers because it seems that there all very busy here on this topic ... :E
.

[CGameProgrammerr]

Name one please.

Were any of the "cars" from a a start up?
Literally every brand new car that has ever been developed. You know when you go to an auto show and you see upcoming models on spinners and nobody is allowed to approach it or open it? Those are non-working pre-production prototypes.

[Bell_ringer]

Literally every brand new car that has ever been developed. You know when you go to an auto show and you see upcoming models on spinners and nobody is allowed to approach it or open it? Those are non-working pre-production prototypes.

Pull the other one. Too much cool aid can lead to all sorts of cognitive dissonance.

[helihub]

It still makes us ponder that so many of the posts on this thread are based on “the past experiences in the aerospace industry”

As the first media outlet to publish an interview with DrJH in Nov20, it’s been clear from the start that he’s taking a different approach to everything, and (intentionally) employing experts from motorsport and various other industries away from flying machines. While that makes for “interesting challenges“ along the way, it also means that you need to understand the other industries to make valid comments.

The human race does not progress without pioneers, and the UK has seen more aviation pioneers than most countries - our office is based on the airfield where Hawker, Sopwith, Bleriot, AVRoe and others built and adapted the early flying machines 110+ years ago,

Assuming it all comes good (we remain optimistic), we look forward to celebrating another British aviation pioneer. As we read this elongating thread, we smile at the increasing number of naysayers who will have to publicly eat their hat/underwear/etc just to keep face when the HX50 takes to the air.

if we’re wrong, we’re fine with that. But we think the industry needs something like HH to jog itself off the assumption that you can get away with charging ridiculous prices for spares, etc. (Just look for Dick Smith’s posts on A109 avionics as a start)

[admikar]

It still makes us ponder that so many of the posts on this thread are based on “the past experiences in the aerospace industry”

As the first media outlet to publish an interview with DrJH in Nov20, it’s been clear from the start that he’s taking a different approach to everything, and (intentionally) employing experts from motorsport and various other industries away from flying machines. While that makes for “interesting challenges“ along the way, it also means that you need to understand the other industries to make valid comments.

The human race does not progress without pioneers, and the UK has seen more aviation pioneers than most countries - our office is based on the airfield where Hawker, Sopwith, Bleriot, AVRoe and others built and adapted the early flying machines 110+ years ago,

Assuming it all comes good (we remain optimistic), we look forward to celebrating another British aviation pioneer. As we read this elongating thread, we smile at the increasing number of naysayers who will have to publicly eat their hat/underwear/etc just to keep face when the HX50 takes to the air.

if we’re wrong, we’re fine with that. But we think the industry needs something like HH to jog itself off the assumption that you can get away with charging ridiculous prices for spares, etc. (Just look for Dick Smith’s posts on A109 avionics as a start)

Nope. I don't think anyone here said it will not take it to the air. We just said it can't be done in timeframe and for the price and giving us quoted performance.
So far, timeline is busted. Other parameters remain to be seen.
Why is it that Hill supporters keep forgeting that?

[FiveBlades]

how do HH know that aircraft won't vibrate enough over time to crack the carbon fibre shell, or break the engine /gearbox mounting points? is it really possible to model this kind of thing to anyegree of certainty before hand?
Yes, and how would one got about repairing such cracks and how long would those "bandages" last, how effective would they be.Only years of testing would be sufficient to determine such a thing, and only time will tell if the next elon musk has everything figured out as much as his customers hope he does.

[PowerPedal]

I'm getting bull**** correction fatigue. See: Brandolini's Law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini%27s_law):
"The amount of energy needed to refute bull**** (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull****) is an order of magnitude (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_magnitude) bigger than that needed to produce it."


completely agree Shagpile. It’s getting tiring. This forum has become about a bunch of grumpy old knockers, not helicopter enthusiasts. Rather than great dialogue about a new helicopter being developed, it’s all just pessimistic knocking on every possible front. Timelines, cost, carbon fibre, engines, etc and I’ve come to realise the handful of guys that dominate this forum have such an entrenched negative view and will never be open to embracing anything new. I’ve had enough of this “forum”. All the best to everyone.

[[email protected]]

Or, in fact, a number of very experienced aviators with many thousands of hours and collectively hundreds of years flying and operating helicopters.

Yet inexperienced PPLHs are happy to take a salesman's optimistic view over a huge wealth of knowledge and experience - certainly far exceeding Dr Hill's.

If the grumpy old men are pessimistic, does that not ring any alarm bells amongst the faithful or are you too in awe of the new kid on the block claiming to have all the answers?

He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy:E

[hargreaves99]

I just wish CRAN would post here and and contribute to the discussion...

[SASless]

I have not been watching this thread much as the discussion seemed to diverge from what it should have focused upon......that being the development program of what might be a very innovative helicopter design.

For the young Pups that are taking exception to some critical views about the design and such.....remember those old dinosaurs got "old" in a business that is not very forgiving of those that are not on top of their game.

When the old guys raise good valid questions it might behove you to slow down and consider what they are questioning.

Personally, I give a hoot about the Hill thing.....but that comes from the luxury of being retired and having more important things to fret over.

I bet a lot of folks thought Frank Robinson was doomed to fail when he set out to build his helicopter....but we see how that turned out.

[jetrotor1]

Everyone has the right to try. Interesting to note that Hill has nearly 2X orders than Robinson had when R22 got cert. If nothing else, shows that market is ready for something other than "same old."

[PowerPedal]

Or, in fact, a number of very experienced aviators with many thousands of hours and collectively hundreds of years flying and operating helicopters.

Yet inexperienced PPLHs are happy to take a salesman's optimistic view over a huge wealth of knowledge and experience - certainly far exceeding Dr Hill's.

If the grumpy old men are pessimistic, does that not ring any alarm bells amongst the faithful or are you too in awe of the new kid on the block claiming to have all the answers?

He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy:E

see this is exactly what we are talking about Crab- spouting off ill informed comments- you claim the wise old pessimists on this forum have a quote “huge wealth of knowledge and experience” yet you actually have absolutely no idea about the flying credentials of the other knockers on this forum, who anonymously represent themselves by pseudonyms, For all we know some of them may not even be helicopter pilots,

And you refer to us HX50 deposit holders as naive inexperienced PPLHs yet again you have zero facts to base that on. Using my example to merely illustrate this point, I have been an aviator for 25 years and fly all sorts of aircraft, hold a CPLH with night rating, low level rating, sling and mustering endorsements, and an instructor rating, and have 1000hrs of rotary time in command. And I know for a fact that some of the other people who have put deposits down are vastly experienced helicopter pilots as well as highly intelligent, successful people. So wake up to yourself and stop assuming we’re all idiots.

[[email protected]]

Out of interest PP, you might like to know that in the military, 1000 hour pilots were considered the most dangerous and most likely to have a crash because they thought they knew it all.

You don't know how many of us here know the experience levels of others from other threads and off-line chats.

I could bore you with a list of my experience and qualifications but most of them (other than being an ATPLH holder since 1991 and flying since 1982) won't mean much to you.

[jeepys]

Whoa Whoa kids, calm down.
Let's not take this thread to a personal level.

Shall we just say that those who want to believe are doing so based on optimism, charm and the desire to see someone succeed. No problems with that.
Those that don't want to believe do so based on experience and pessimism.
There are highly intelligent people in both camps, however only one camp will have depositers.

Good luck all involved.

[[email protected]]

You're right Jeepys but can you spot which antagonist started the downward trend?

[PowerPedal]

[[email protected];11511177][1000 hour pilots were considered the most dangerous and most likely to have a crash because they thought they knew it all./QUOTE]

yep agree with that.
And also agree that I don’t really know that much-
Indeed the more experience I get the more I realise just how much I don’t know.
Was just purely illustrating that some of us gullible muppets who have put deposits down are not just simple PPLH as you have stated. That’s all.

[PowerPedal]

I could bore you with a list of my experience and qualifications but most of them (other than being an ATPLH holder since 1991 and flying since 1982) won't mean much to you.

Clearly you have vast experience Crab. Congratulations. Regardless of the difference in philosophy and opinion here, of course there’s inter-pilot respect for anyone with that sort of aviation experience.

[[email protected]]

completely agree Shagpile. It’s getting tiring. This forum has become about a bunch of grumpy old knockers, not helicopter enthusiasts That's not a difference in philosophy - that's just being rude.

​​​​​​​i have no problem with being disagreed with, it's just the manner that is too symptomatic of modern internet attitudes.

[hargreaves99]

Although we won't the result of Grumpy Old Cynics Vs Positive Young Idealists until around the year 2030, so maybe we should all ignore HH and come back then.

[Bell_ringer]

As someone middle-aged, I feel like I am being discriminated against. Too young to be grumpy, too old to be an idealist.
Does that make me a grumpy idealist? :}

[admikar]

As someone middle-aged, I feel like I am being discriminated against. Too young to be grumpy, too old to be an idealist.
Does that make me a grumpy idealist? :}
I consider myself to be ambitious, so I self declared as old enough to be grumpy. Does that count?

[Lonewolf_50]

As someone middle-aged, I feel like I am being discriminated against. Too young to be grumpy, too old to be an idealist.
Does that make me a grumpy idealist? :} "Well seasoned" strikes me as a good descriptive.

[jeepys]

Blimey, it must be a Friday thing or there's some cheap ganja floating about. You'll all be kissing each other soon parading pride flags!

[Bell_ringer]

Blimey, it must be a Friday thing or there's some cheap ganja floating about. You'll all be kissing each other soon parading pride flags!

Clearly you live somewhere it isn’t legal, or where you can’t grow your own, for personal use, of course.

[[email protected]]

Perhaps the grumpy ones aren’t actually that grumpy:)

[hargreaves99]

I'm just glad the luxury door handles and the landing lights have been sorted out

[Salusa]

Literally every brand new car that has ever been developed. You know when you go to an auto show and you see upcoming models on spinners and nobody is allowed to approach it or open it? Those are non-working pre-production prototypes.

I don't go to auto shows.

And if I did go to one I would see "upcoming models" from the major OEM's.

I did own a Toyota once. Great car, backed up with reliability and service from a corporation with a service network etc.

If only I had bought that DeLorean....

[SASless]

Please not to bring up the issue of Pilot Doors on helicopters.....that shall take this discussion off into the wilds of advocacy to nail design engineers to large wooden things.

Bell never did get one right.

MBB came very close.

Sikorsky had it figured out then went to the 76 which was a huge step backwards.

Boeing-Vertol solved the puzzle by making a door that was only opened by accident or during one.

Let's see how Hill solves this issue.

[Ascend Charlie]

Sikorsky had it figured out then went to the 76 which was a huge step backwards.

​​​​​​​Au contraire, Sassy, The doors on the 76 had the satisfying "chunk" sound of a Lincoln Continental, and the door key (I heard) was from a Chevrolet.

[ShyTorque]

Au contraire, Sassy, The doors on the 76 had the satisfying "chunk" sound of a Lincoln Continental, and the door key (I heard) was from a Chevrolet.

The locksmith in West Palm Beach who cut some spare keys from the S-76 ones I took to him told me they were 1970s USA model Ford blanks. Cost me a dollar each.

[Hughes500]

Come on SAS, Hughes had it right, the only totally over engineered door with a built in ventilation system

[admikar]

Which one of GOM members is going to watch new presentation?

[[email protected]]

Never volunteer for anything........:)

[admikar]

I'm actually really interested, but I will have to leave 45 minutes after it starts, so.......

[hargreaves99]

Are you referring to the event at Duxford in Dec? I was going to go, but I very much doubt it will be a working prototype, so I won't bother.

[admikar]

No, Thursday's online presentation where we can see latest developments.
Speaking of, is it me or regular "oh, you're just a bunch of naysayers" is a bit quiet?
Or maybe they are waiting for the us unwashed to see what they allegedly have already seen and then we can discuss?

[hargreaves99]

I think the "gumpy old naysayers" are just tired of pointing out the same things and are just waiting to see if the factory gets permission, the engine runs, the prototype flies, and production starts properly.

[admikar]

I think the "gumpy old naysayers" are just tired of pointing out the same things and are just waiting to see if the factory gets permission, the engine runs, the prototype flies, and production starts properly.
I was pointing to the other side, the one that called us the grumpy old naysayers.
According to them, they were supposed to see new development, reserved for buyers only.

[Shagpile]

Interesting to see the evolution of this thread. If you go back to about page 6-10, it's mostly speculating that the project is impossible.

Now it's materialised into a discussion about whether the factory gets planning permission and speculation of program delays, which are all true and rumour worthy, but people are missing the point that over 3 years and despite 50 pages of negative posts, there's now warehouses full of parts completed and we're probably 6-9 months away from seeing something airborne.

Interesting to see at each milestone, the negative nancies just move onto the next thing. So predictable.

I wonder what we'll be talking about in 3 years. "Oh look the first Airworthiness Directive - I told you it was a lemon". Nothing will change here.

[hargreaves99]

Excellent, first flight by July 2024. That's brilliant news.

Production will start Jan 2025 and they will make 500 aircraft by Dec 2025.

An incredible achievement.


there's now warehouses full of parts completed and we're probably 6-9 months away from seeing something airborne.

[[email protected]]

It hasn't met the milestones laid out at the start at any stage, it still hasn't flown in any form, the performance therefore is completely unproven and the costs are rising.

By any metric, Hill has not achieved what he promised to do.

He MIGHT get an aircraft airborne in the next year, it MIGHT achieve certification, it MIGHT have the claimed performance and it MIGHT be produced 500 per year - but so far just some glossy videos and lots of spare parts.

If you look back accurately you will see that most of the 'negative nancies' would like Hill to succeed but rail against constant overpromising and under-delivering

[admikar]

If you look back accurately you will see that most of the 'negative nancies' would like Hill to succeed but rail against constant overpromising and under-delivering
By doing so would destroy his main narrative how we are just a bunch of naysayers. You can't really expect people to sacrifice that much?

[206 jock]

Obviously there may be more detail in the 'owner' videos but are all of these parts being pushed out being NDT, durability tested and production ready?

Or - at the other end of the scale - are many of them being 3D printed so they can be put on a mock up of an aircraft being displayed in 2 months?

I suspect the GOMs and the Hillievers have a different answer.

[hargreaves99]

from facebook 2 days ago.

so it's flying already?

amazing.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/806x736/screen_shot_2023_10_09_at_08_29_29_d1fa4913373f5f6f48794f2d2 a975be2f9c455a2.png

[[email protected]]

A demonstration of CAD power and precision maybe..........nice rendering

[Shagpile]

the costs are rising.

Not for me! Fixed price.

[admikar]

Not for me! Fixed price.
Yes, you as an early adopter made a good decision, but it still does not negate the fact that price is rising, which "naysayers" said will happen.
BTW, if you include lost profit that deposit money would have brought you (which might be irrelevant to you but is still a thing), because of the delays, price is rising for you too.

[hargreaves99]

I don't know what you are moaning about. Jason Hill is an innovative disruptor that is shaking the industry up with revolutionary new practises and procedures. The hx50 will fly in 2024 and you will all be queueing up to buy one.

[CGameProgrammerr]

Personally I don't care about somewhat rising price if it delivers what it promises and if the HX (uncertified) is not more expensive than the certified R66. Ideally less. The R66 is certified and proven, with a huge support network; same with the R44. The HX50 has allegedly better performance (totally theoretical of course), a fully articulated rotor, wheels, powered wheel taxi system, allegedly cheap insurance (R44 is ~$12k/year), allegedly lower maintenance costs over time...

[[email protected]]

Good use of the word allegedly since nothing is remotely certain with this project.

[hargreaves99]

Factory planning permission decision delayed again, until Nov 16th 2023

Planning Applications - Staffordshire Moorlands District Council (http://publicaccess.staffsmoorlands.gov.uk/portal/servlets/ApplicationSearchServlet?PKID=161684)

[CGameProgrammerr]

Latest AMA is up on YouTube. They're abandoning their original factory plans because obviously this idiot council were never going to approve it so they'll be renting an existing space, likely near/at an airport, and are negotiating with several possible sites.

[hargreaves99]

quotes from Jason:

"we have taken a very pragmatic sidestep" (re: now looking for an airfield site to rent)

"....so at the moment we're we're planning to get these machines on stage for December and we've got a good degree of confidence about that and then we're planning for test flights beyond that and we've got a good degree of confidence about that but beyond that when you start interacting with the aviation authorities in 67 different countries when you're dealing with the scale up to production it becomes less easy to predict with confidence how long all of those intricacies are going to take so we're very focused on what the immediate goals are and I'm confident that we can deliver our immediate goals in the timelines"

"i'm fairly confident we will deliver this in the timelines that we're stating but all we'll do is tell the truth as we have all the way through the programme"

[admikar]

Watched 40 minutes or so before I had to leave.
Since this is the first AMA I have watched, I can't judge how much progress has been made, but it's still mostly collection of parts.

[hargreaves99]

A basic no-frills new R44 now costs £500,000, and you have to rebuild it after 2,200 hours/12 years.

So I can see why he has got almost 1,000 orders

[206 jock]

Latest AMA is up on YouTube. They're abandoning their original factory plans because obviously this idiot council were never going to approve it so they'll be renting an existing space, likely near/at an airport, and are negotiating with several possible sites.



Anyone who knows anything about UK Planning process would have told Dr Hill that his factory idea was a non starter. Instead he has wasted time, money and effort on a pipedream.

But isn't this just a reality check for the whole project? The plan for the Hill Helicopter is 'blue sky thinking ': innovation this, GA 2.0 that, new greenfield factory the other. It sounds like Dr Hill has realised that it's all not quite as easy as he thought.

[hargreaves99]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1956x332/screen_shot_2023_10_13_at_09_31_05_192d161396e557dc66ccc5133 88519c808698d3e.png

[VM325]

Latest AMA is up on YouTube. They're abandoning their original factory plans because obviously this idiot council were never going to approve it so they'll be renting an existing space, likely near/at an airport, and are negotiating with several possible sites.

That isn't the way I interpreted it, he's doing the Environmental Impact Statement and carrying on with the original plan - just renting in the short term to allow time for the HQ to develop...
Although I aggree, getting planning for what he wants will be hard.
The parish council are actively doing everything possible to bog them down in red tape and complaints.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1075/screenshot_2023_10_13_at_09_27_30_435b824467e66f96f7984c9262 625c1ea12d2f84.jpg

[hargreaves99]

Errr, no... as initially he said the prototypes would be flying in 2023

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1668x290/screen_shot_2023_10_13_at_09_32_17_891496a09bcbda94905416d87 969678142c99bb9.png

[Bell_ringer]

We've got a good degree of confidence that the humble pie can remain securely in the freezer, awaiting preparation permissions :E

[hargreaves99]

he has £50 million, so he will get something in the air at some point, that will ensure another £25 million

[admikar]

he has £50 million, so he will get something in the air at some point

Well, that never was contested anyway. Mostly timeline, then pricing and we are not sure performance wise.

[[email protected]]

If he had said at the start that there would be problems along the way and progress would be determined by a number of external factors - would anyone have given him their money?

[admikar]

Probably yes. Whether that would be sufficient to continue with this project is unknown.

[hargreaves99]

943 orders in 67 countries.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8UznwS4ZeY

"The development facility is now on the critical path which means we have to consider our production continuity plan, that's what we're doing now, so our next step is essentially to take on a large rented space that will give us all of the room that we need to complete the development and then move seamlessly into production. There's plenty of these facilities available in our area, we're in negotiations with a number of facilities at the moment. We haven't yet decided on the exact site or size but this will be done before the event in December. We're getting on with this right now and we're just making sure that we can stick as closely as possible to our declared timeline, so really pleased with how this is coming along. The other thing that this does of course do is it means we can take as long as we need to to develop the HQ and it also means we can consider sites at airports which make the whole planning issue a lot easier as well."

[helispotter]

From 2:50 into the latest update video there is discussion and some footage about the development of skids for the helicopter. In all CAD images I had seen before, it was a tricycle undercarriage. Is this a change? Is it an alternative option? I haven't followed the project closely so it may have been covered previously.

[hargreaves99]

I notice there were lots of "errs" and "umms" when talking about CAA approval

[Kemble Pitts]

This chap is developing a new helicopter in the UK, and he's making a pretty good fist of it. He's got lots of orders, really lots and lots, across the world.

This is excellent news for UK plc and for UK aviation.

There are going to be challenges, obvs..., all programmes have them. And yet we have the constant sniping from the usual suspects. Not many of you, but you're always 'having a go'. Why don't you offer applause, encouragement rather than 'he'll never do it, he's going to fail, did you hear him mumble a bit last time, etc...

I've worked with people like this, in Harry Potter they're called Dementors, suck all of the positivity out of the place.

[Bell_ringer]

and he's making a pretty good fist of it.

Is it a Ham fist? :E

[hargreaves99]

I would love to see the HX50 fly and get into proper production, with the specs promised, for the price stated, in the timelines stated, and be safe and reliable and easy to maintain.

I would also not like to see 900 disappointed buyers.

[Kemble Pitts]

Thanks for the replies chaps, I knew you wouldn't disappoint...

[Richard Fiedorowicz]

Kemble,

You're correct in what you say about the HX50 - it’s superb that someone has got off their arse, found a finance model that works for the company and for prospective customers who know that there is an element of risk.
On the positive side the use of contractors for a lot of experience probably gives the project a faster route to market as far as product development is concerned although it’s bound to get bogged down during the paperwork stage which has 2 roles - ensuring safety and covering the arse of the people giving the permission for the new product to fly. (That’s how it works in the industry I’m in - I assume it’s little different in avation)

The Marenco / Kopter AW09 first flew in October 2014 - correct me if I’m wrong but none have been delivered - how many years before had the project started? - time scales for the HX50 are somewhat shorter so it’s bound to be fertile ground for those that understand the scale of work to be completed.

I don’t believe that people want Dr Hill to fail - these people are just longer in the tooth and have seen recalls / problems etc throughout their careers and expect there to be numerous hurdles along the way and are pointing it out.

Maybe some meat on the bone around the hard bits would shut up those who have not placed a deposit - as examples:-

(1) How many engines will be built and tested prior to production and what time scale would be required?
(2) How many total engine hours run makes for a trusted engine design fit for purpose.
(3) What structural testing will take place for various parts - such as load points for the engine and main gearbox.
(4) How will the gear boxes be tested.

I am sure it will fly and customers will get their aircraft.


richard

[hargreaves99]

I think what gets people suspicious is there is way too much talk about the trim on the seats and the door handles and the landing lights etc, and not enough talk/updates about when the engine will be running and when the thing will fly.

[helispotter]

I think what gets people suspicious is there is way too much talk about the trim on the seats and the door handles and the landing lights etc...
The seemingly unorthodox sequence of development, at least as portrayed in videos, also has my attention. There are several fuselage shells already built, each with refinements to fit-up etc but there is no 'rough' flying example with a rudimentary fitout to test the concept as a whole. Perhaps I am just old fashioned in how I expect design development to occur? Development these days must be much more reliant on computed based 3D models where many components are under simultaneous development whether door trims, landing lights or gas turbines and rotor systems!

In the video linked at post #1207 Jason Hill comments on how he is happy with the fenestron performance but what is this based on? CFD computations? Wind tunnel testing? A large scale flying RC model which I haven't seen in any of the videos so far?

Haven't seen any reply from those of you following HX50 more closely about whether it has changed from tricycle to skid undercarriage but I notice in the video there is a large poster in the background at around 5:55 showing the look with skids. So once again, is there a CFD or physical model that is being used to assess the change in aerodynamic characteristics as a result of the different undercarriage configuration?

I don't have the spare cash to invest in HX50, or even a gyrocopter. But I am sure those who are investing have gained their wealth by taking some financial risks so a deposit with Hill wouldn't have them too worried.

[hargreaves99]

I met a person who has placed a deposit one. They are quite successful in business and has had a number of companies/ventures over the years, and they are absolutely convinced that Hill will spell the end of Robinson helicopters. Make of that what you will

[helispotter]

Search on internet indicates the skids are an option sought by some customers:

https://verticalmag.com/press-releases/hill-helicopters-unveils-skid-landing-gear-option-for-new-hx50-hc50/

Desk top display models already available for both versions.

[Agile]

(1) How many engines will be built and tested prior to production and what time scale would be required?
(2) How many total engine hours run makes for a trusted engine design fit for purpose.
(3) What structural testing will take place for various parts - such as load points for the engine and main gearbox.
(4) How will the gear boxes be tested.
richard
I second that, I just cannot understand how much people are taking for granted,."that you just put it together".

happy with the fenestron performance but what is this based on? CFD computations? Wind tunnel testing? A large scale flying RC model which I haven't seen in any of the videos so far? .
blind faith, that must be nice to have.

the skids. So once again, is there a CFD or physical model that is being used to assess the change in aerodynamic characteristics as a result of the different undercarriage configuration?.
The H130 (EC130) used to have a bad case of dutch roll (phugoid oscilation) because of the skids, that is when they added the fin like structure on the rear cross beam. CFD cannot predict averything.


I was just reviewing the Cabri manufacturing Video, so many subcontractor with expertise of their own

Manoir Aerospace (forging)
Lorey (CNC)
Stelia composites (fuselage)
Efitam (metal works)
another company for the software... that I forgot the name
probably another company for the harnesses

Makes so much better sense to me, "design and integrate"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QPGv9GA4Xg

[Bell_ringer]

But the Cabri does cost north of $400k for a 2-seater that needs cool coastal conditions to actually perform.
Hill has to do everything himself to make the price point, he boxed himself in with that philosophy.
The world needs disruptors, and fingers crossed Hill is one of them.
But disruption does not happen overnight, plenty fail and some are outright charlatans, because being a founding investor or early adopter is appealing.

Skepticism is a good thing. For every person who backs the right horse and comes out ahead, there are many more who come up short.

[Agile]

Hill has to do everything himself to make the price point, he boxed himself in with that philosophy.
Boy does that box feels narrow now!

It might get better by the Christmas demo event,
but then it will start to shrink again, difficult battle!

[[email protected]]

I've worked with people like this, in Harry Potter they're called Dementors, suck all of the positivity out of the place. Or, alternatively accept that disruptors need reality checkers to stop them rushing off at a tangent.

We could glad-hand and high-five every new piece of trim or door handle but those details are peripheral to the real need for a running engine and a flying prototype - when those appear I am sure you will see some positivity.

​​​​​​​Until then I'll avoid the 'Californian' cheer everything and celebrate mediocrity mentality thanks.

[CGameProgrammerr]

For those asking about skids, the option for skids was available right from the very beginning, as soon as the website was put up. So it's nothing new and no, they are not replacing the wheels with skids - it's just an option for those that want them, and they expect skids to reduce performance and max cruise speed compared to the retractable wheels.

[212man]

For those asking about skids, the option for skids was available right from the very beginning, as soon as the website was put up. So it's nothing new and no, they are not replacing the wheels with skids - it's just an option for those that want them, and they expect skids to reduce performance and max cruise speed compared to the retractable wheels.
They also reduce the chances of landing with the gear retracted, which I would say for the target market is a very high probability!

[CGameProgrammerr]

It would be very easy to program a warning when the helicopter goes below ETL with the gear retracted. If wheeled helicopters don't already do this, they certainly ought to. It's such a simple solution. (OGE hovers will trigger it too but that's fine if it's just a warning light and one-time audio alert).

[[email protected]]

And most helicopters with wheels have such warnings - doesn't stop people landing them with the gear up though.

[212man]

It would be very easy to program a warning when the helicopter goes below ETL with the gear retracted. If wheeled helicopters don't already do this, they certainly ought to. It's such a simple solution. (OGE hovers will trigger it too but that's fine if it's just a warning light and one-time audio alert).
You could be onto a winner there - maybe write to Sikorsky, Airbus and Leonardo with your suggestion.

[megan]

doesn't stop people landing them with the gear up thoughEven when C & T folk are flying solo, twice. I confess the horn saved me once, single pilot going onto a barge.

[Jetexec]

I met a person who has placed a deposit one. They are quite successful in business and has had a number of companies/ventures over the years, and they are absolutely convinced that Hill will spell the end of Robinson helicopters. Make of that what you will


I'm one of those guys. I am a business owner, and in an earlier life I was a Commercial Pilot as well as an Engineer (A & P). I'd like to think I'm successful 😳.....at least the wife's Visa card has never been blocked. I am number 24 on the order list. I currently fly a 407 that I have owned for 10 years. In the early going, I talked with Jason on several occasions. I grilled him with questions based on my experience. I've always been the type that would never buy the "Model A" of anything. In the end, I felt comfortable and sent some money. I fully understand that it is 'risk money', but my gut feeling was that Jason genuinely knew what he was talking about. When I tell my friends about the HX50, I describe to them that my 407 is basically 60's & 70's technology, probably originally designed on a slide rule. I'm not knocking the Bell products, but that is a fact. I have a swollen LongRanger with a bigger Allison engine similar to the design of the old JetRangers. How inconceivable is it to think that a guy like Jason, who has worked for other manufacturers, could take all the knowledge and spin off with a new design coupled with the latest and greatest of technology available to help him? Is he optimistic on delivery dates? Probably, there will always be setbacks. I can wait. I'd rather know that the kinks are worked out of the design before I pick mine up. I still feel confident on his design and program that he is running. If it were that easy, we would all be designing something brilliant. I'm flying out in December with my wife to see their progress (if her Visa card still permits!). I've never been to the UK. I think there are 4 others in my area in Western Canada that have orders in. I know those guys well, and their success stories would diminish my own by a margin. I like what I see. I've made some bad choices before in my life, but I don't think this will be one of them. I think I last posted about 60 pages back, and hadn't tuned in for some time. I can see that it is the same group of pessimists clogging the forum. Have you tuned in to any of their updates? That might be a start. There are some good people in all walks of life coming up with brilliant products. Some will hit it right out of the park. I got my money on this horse and still sleep well at night.

[Shagpile]

My experience and thoughts are almost identical

[bellblade2014]

I got my money on this horse and still sleep well at night.

I for one am glad to see so many people excited to invest in this sort of venture. I would love to hear more people explain what the current Helicopter manufacturers are doing so wrong that they are willing to gamble on an unproven entrepreneur. The styling is nice, but the rest appears conventional and not revolutionary. Bold performance numbers and cost estimates but those are unlikely to prove true… physics dominates. Why take the risk? Why not approach the existing OEM’s?

[Agile]

Another out of the box question:
Considering the HX50 and HC50 really need 3 to 4 years to come to maturity (all problem solved, manufacturing on a stable way),
Does Hill has enougth runway ahead?
is the light personal helicopter market still good for 20 years?

If you look at these companies: Joby Aviation( https://www.jobyaviation.com )
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/900x442/a_a4fdd162aecd783f2ffa067250955d313914130a.png
They have a lot in common with the way Hill is thinking innovation and manufacturing wise.

or Archer aviation ( https://www.archer.com )
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/900x400/b_7e35948f44592aab54a79a30fdc55e2f3c065ebe.png

They also promise 2028 certification

[bellblade2014]

Another out of the box question:
Considering the HX50 and HC50 really need 3 to 4 years to come to maturity (all problem solved, manufacturing on a stable way),
Does Hill has enougth runway ahead?
is the light personal helicopter market still good for 20 years?

If you look at these companies: Joby Aviation( https://www.jobyaviation.com )
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/900x442/a_a4fdd162aecd783f2ffa067250955d313914130a.png
They have a lot in common with the way Hill is thinking innovation and manufacturing wise.

or Archer aviation ( https://www.archer.com )
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/900x400/b_7e35948f44592aab54a79a30fdc55e2f3c065ebe.png

They also promise 2028 certification

With those designs, there is no safe way to the ground if you lose all power. Plus, those props and actuators and such will all need to be inspected and maintained. How can that be better than a helicopter or tilt rotor? The archer and joby birds have wings that hurt hover performance and don’t have the endurance to use them for forward flight for very long. I do not understand these designs. What happened to the 609? I don’t need pressurized cabin but I like tiltrotors better than octo-copter or whatever those things are.

[500e]

JH keeps saying it is a convential design using upto date technical & engineering, done in house.

[[email protected]]

So, in fact, not ground-breaking nor innovative - just another helicopter.........

[hargreaves99]

If you take away all the talk, CGI, mockups and videos etc...all you have (for around £50 million) is a collection of parts. No sign of a working engine, a gearbox, any blades, or a factory.

I am looking forward to seeing what is unveiled at Duxford in five weeks time.

[admikar]

I'm one of those guys. I am a business owner, and in an earlier life I was a Commercial Pilot as well as an Engineer (A & P). I'd like to think I'm successful 😳.....at least the wife's Visa card has never been blocked. I am number 24 on the order list. I currently fly a 407 that I have owned for 10 years. In the early going, I talked with Jason on several occasions. I grilled him with questions based on my experience. I've always been the type that would never buy the "Model A" of anything. In the end, I felt comfortable and sent some money. I fully understand that it is 'risk money', but my gut feeling was that Jason genuinely knew what he was talking about. When I tell my friends about the HX50, I describe to them that my 407 is basically 60's & 70's technology, probably originally designed on a slide rule. I'm not knocking the Bell products, but that is a fact. I have a swollen LongRanger with a bigger Allison engine similar to the design of the old JetRangers. How inconceivable is it to think that a guy like Jason, who has worked for other manufacturers, could take all the knowledge and spin off with a new design coupled with the latest and greatest of technology available to help him? Is he optimistic on delivery dates? Probably, there will always be setbacks. I can wait. I'd rather know that the kinks are worked out of the design before I pick mine up. I still feel confident on his design and program that he is running. If it were that easy, we would all be designing something brilliant. I'm flying out in December with my wife to see their progress (if her Visa card still permits!). I've never been to the UK. I think there are 4 others in my area in Western Canada that have orders in. I know those guys well, and their success stories would diminish my own by a margin. I like what I see. I've made some bad choices before in my life, but I don't think this will be one of them. I think I last posted about 60 pages back, and hadn't tuned in for some time. I can see that it is the same group of pessimists clogging the forum. Have you tuned in to any of their updates? That might be a start. There are some good people in all walks of life coming up with brilliant products. Some will hit it right out of the park. I got my money on this horse and still sleep well at night.
Is it pessimism if it's correct? Hill has/have timeline slippage. Price has gone up. Performance remains to be seen (at this point I have no reason to doubt that performance figures will be met). Instead of pessimism I see talking out of experience.

[CGameProgrammerr]

eVTOLs are exciting but they are not replacements for helicopters - they're extremely short-range and their use cases are all very short-distance trips, like ferrying people between Manhattan and LaGuardia.

[Jetexec]

Is it pessimism if it's correct? Hill has/have timeline slippage. Price has gone up. Performance remains to be seen (at this point I have no reason to doubt that performance figures will be met). Instead of pessimism I see talking out of experience.

With regard to the price increase, I think those increases were stated at the beginning. The first 100 orders got in at the cheapest price (295), the next batch at an increased price. I think they are on their third price level, soon to be encountering the fourth (595??), but I may be wrong here.

[Shagpile]

The final public price target was stated as £495k very early, then updated to £595k a couple of years ago, where it has remained since.

I believe "the price is going up" is confusion about the discounted purchase incentive for early customers.

Early customers who were happy with holding higher development risk, are contracted to quite large discounts, in return for a small deposit that helps fund the development. These discounts have slowly reduced linearly to almost full price nearing 1000 orders. So all this talk of "the price is going up" actually just means that that as the risk curve asymptotes to zero, the discounts drop off and the price approaches the final retail price. Any person at any time has always been able to place an order for their acceptable risk appetite. If you're not happy, just wait until the milestone that you want to see, whether that is engine, prototype flying or the first 100 out of the factory and flying.

[Lala Steady]

And always remember - never fly the A model of anything..........

[nikoel]

And always remember - never fly the A model of anything..........

Pilots hate this one weird trick
The first Aérospatiale/Eurocopter AS350 was a B and C model

Aviation equivalent of hotels who skip the room number '666' or the 13th floor

[Shagpile]

He has a 5 year (5000hr) nose to tail warranty. Next FUD please.

[[email protected]]

He has a 5 year (5000hr) nose to tail warranty. Next FUD please.
But not a flying helicopter nor a working engine..............................................

[hargreaves99]

He has a 5 year (5000hr) nose to tail warranty. Next FUD please.

Great, but like the warranty on anything you buy....how easy will it for owners to "claim" on this warranty? If you are in <foreign country> and your HX50 tail cone splits, how long are you going to have to wait for it to be fixed?

Hill could say 10 years and 10,000 hour warranty, they could even say lifetime warranty.

Like everything on this project, LOTS of promises and LOTS of unknowns.

I have also noticed that Hill delete any 'questioning' comments from all their youtube videos, so all the comments look positive.

And Hill checks this forum at 7am everyday

[Bell_ringer]

But not a flying helicopter nor a working engine..............................................

The Delorean also came with a comprehensive warranty.

[havick]

The Delorean also came with a comprehensive warranty.

And the delorean even made it to production

[actionjackson]

Sorry to ask here but it's the place I'm most likely to spot a reply, how does one like a post?
I'm using Chrome, I've scoured the screen and I cannot see a like button.
Thanks

[Agile]

The button in on the bottom right corner, "it only shows when you are logged in" as per below

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1354x423/untitled5_8875bb11f5b0f9f89cfb043917ee9de360b1dde0.png

Try it on my post :}

[Bell_ringer]

It’s possibly restricted for new users, like various other features.
on mobile, it’s bottom left, the old tums up emoji.