Jetstar EBA 2019 [Archive]

a_pilot

13th Jul 2019, 06:04

If a pilot can be suspended without pay because their ASIC, passport, or medical is not renewed within a certain period before expiry, then shouldn't the same apply to the EBA ? Shouldn't the next EBA be also approved before the current EBA expires ?

If the EBA has expired, and there is obviously no "good faith" in negotiating the next one, isn't this a valid reason to apply for PIA NOW !

Or do we just let it drag on for another year or 2 so they can use back pay as an additional bargaining chip, whilst we miss out on a pay rise ?

There should only be 3 firm options NOW:
- present the new EBA NOW, which has been successfully negotiated with the reps
- otherwise in the meantime just pay the 3%, whilst negotiating the fine detail of the next EBA
- or apply for PIA NOW

Rated De

13th Jul 2019, 06:22

If a pilot can be suspended without pay because their ASIC, passport, or medical is not renewed within a certain period before expiry, then shouldn't the same apply to the EBA ? Shouldn't the next EBA be also approved before the current EBA expires ?

That is interesting.
It would be an interesting day in court for that to be deemed appropriate and not punitive.
Your wider points highlight a problem of the 'system namely there is no risk or penalty applied to a company that drags it feet while the 'back pay' accumulates generating leverage against an employee group.

Ollie Onion

14th Jul 2019, 00:24

a_pilot,

Nope, the option you have failed to put is:

Let the negotiations drag out for at least 18 months beyond the current EBA expiry, negotiate the bare minimum required to get a slender majority to vote yes as most pilots won't support PIA and go off into the sunset knowing the company has saved 18 months of payrises buy dragging it all out.

The usual garbage has already started, I was told by a very senior manager last week that JANZ will be getting ALL of the A321 XLR's but has not been confirmed as it is pilot EBA time and they don't want grounds for more pay requests due to midhaul operations and that if the pilots as for too much those aircraft and its flying will go to more 'cost effective' pilot groups within the group. So the usual crap, dangle the shiny new aircraft at the gullible pilots and see how many will settle to ensure a change to fly them.

Rated De

14th Jul 2019, 00:36

a_pilot

14th Jul 2019, 00:50

Let the negotiations drag out for at least 18 months beyond the current EBA expiry

Are you going to repeat mistakes from the past ?

PIA NOW.

You don't actually have to wait 18 months or 2 years to file for PIA.

You don't have to wait for a document to be produced or to make a no vote.

You can apply for PIA anytime during negotiations after an expired agreement.

Are you going to allow them to deliberately stall you for another year or 2 ? Do something about it NOW.

Industrial action: (http://www.fairwork.gov.au/how-we-will-help/templates-and-guides/fact-sheets/rights-and-obligations/industrial-action)

Industrial action is only protected if:
- it is action taken by employees (or their bargaining representatives) to support claims in relation to an enterprise agreement (employee claim action) or
- the action meets the common and additional requirements for protection, which include:

not taking action before the nominal expiry date of an industrial agreement (including those workplace agreements made under the previous Workplace Relations Act 1996 eg. collective agreements, Australian Workplace Agreement (AWAs) and Individual Transitional Employment Agreement (ITEAs)
parties genuinely trying to reach agreement

The EBA has expired and Jetstar is not genuinely trying to reach an agreement.

Doesn't this meet the criteria to file for PIA ?

The fact that the Chief Pilot has already stated in writing not to expect more than 3% indicates it will be a strong NO vote. You already know the expected EBA and the result of the vote.

Why wait 2 years for a document which you know will only give you 3% and you also miss out on a payrise in the meantime ?

Why wait 2 years and allow them to use back pay as leverage against you ?

Why wait 2 years for a document that you already know will be unacceptable ?

It is time for action NOW.

theheadmaster

14th Jul 2019, 04:53

Are you going to repeat mistakes from the past ?

PIA NOW.

You don't actually have to wait 18 months or 2 years to file for PIA.

You don't have to wait for a document to be produced or to make a no vote.

You can apply for PIA anytime during negotiations after an expired agreement.

Are you going to allow them to deliberately stall you for another year or 2 ? Do something about it NOW.

Industrial action: (http://www.fairwork.gov.au/how-we-will-help/templates-and-guides/fact-sheets/rights-and-obligations/industrial-action)

The EBA has expired and Jetstar is not genuinely trying to reach an agreement.

Doesn't this meet the criteria to file for PIA ?

The fact that the Chief Pilot has already stated in writing not to expect more than 3% indicates it will be a strong NO vote. You already know the expected EBA and the result of the vote.

Why wait 2 years for a document which you know will only give you 3% and you also miss out on a payrise in the meantime ?

Why wait 2 years and allow them to use back pay as leverage against you ?

Why wait 2 years for a document that you already know will be unacceptable ?

It is time for action NOW.

You have found the PIA information on the Fair Work web site. Look to the bottom of the page and see where the action can be terminated. You then need to understand may happen if action is terminated (hint - bargaining period of 21 days then a determination by Fair Work). You also need to understand that those criteria to terminate industrial action apply to employer response action. You also need to understand that employer response action is a lockout and does not need to be proportional to the employee claim action. So, you can do something that you think is pretty harmless and the company takes drastic response action that triggers a termination. If you think you will get a good outcome from a determination, you need to think about how the coalition government has been stacking the Fair Work Commission with pro-employer Deputy Presidents and Commissioners. Obviously, that is all worst-case, but you need to understand all of the implications if you are advocating for PIA.

das Uber Soldat

14th Jul 2019, 05:14

I hope the boys and girls are up for a bit of a fight. As I've said before, of any NB 180 seat operator in Aus, JQ fly the largest aircraft, the most passengers, the longest distances and do the most sectors. All for the least amount of money in the country.

Something has to change. Any agreement that puts us behind Tiger (no disrespect to the fine people at Tiger) is just unacceptable in my view. Im certainly prepared to roll the dice on PIA should no progress be made towards that goal. I don't know how the commission looks at what we do, as described above, not to mention the increased capability offered by RNP, Cat iiib low vis etc etc, the fact we carry 60 extra people and adjudicates that we don't deserve at least parity with Tiger.

I hope it doesn't come to PIA, but I think in a years or two time, it may have to.

ConfigFull

14th Jul 2019, 06:26

Why on earth are pilots scared of being locked out? It's a worry I have to share an enclosed space with you.

Tankengine

14th Jul 2019, 08:11

Why on earth are pilots scared of being locked out? It's a worry I have to share an enclosed space with you.
Exactly! I have been locked out, my only regret is still being in port when services recommenced.
I should have paid my own way home along with every other Captain in the company and let the company sort out the subsequent mess!

Rated De

14th Jul 2019, 09:02

Exactly! I have been locked out, my only regret is still being in port when services recommenced.
I should have paid my own way home along with every other Captain in the company and let the company sort out the subsequent mess!

Given Little Napoleon's 'risk case' for the immediate grounding of Qantas in 2011 was in-fact the human factor risks, pilots ought have done exactly that; taken a break for at least a week as the 'human-factor' impact was digested.
As Paul Keating lamented, had Prime Minister Gillard not done anything, the problem would have been resolved in a week and Little Napoleon and the disingenuous bunch of misfits, loosely called a board would have been finished.

The grounding lock-out was a one shot deal. He executed.
Practically speaking, how could he ever 'de-transform' Qantas having assured all that he alone 'transformed a previously terminal business?

theheadmaster

14th Jul 2019, 10:17

It isn’t the lock out that is the concern, it is the determination that comes afterward. ‘Fair Work’ is not fair. I am not saying don’t do it, I am just pointing out that you need to understand the risk so that you can make an informed decision.

a_pilot

16th Jul 2019, 04:56

This optimiser comes in September, which will give us minimum rest between flights, and max length duty days otherwise also inconsistent work and sleep patterns, from early to late, with time zone changes and also back of the clock. Many patterns will include consecutive back of the clock with day rest only, and often away from home.

If we possibly might change the way we work effective September, this is all due the fatiguing patterns from the optimiser, nothing else.

If I can't sleep well during the day because I am not in my own bed, but at a hotel with noise outside, and if I can't do a back of the clock later that day, this is genuine fatigue. (remember our obligations regarding fitness for duty)

If I have minimum rest between lengthy duties, and choose to rest as long as I can, and come to work and commence my duties exactly at sign on, this is genuine resting as much as I can in the minimum allocated rest period before the next lengthy duty.

If we are feeling fatigued and no longer have the energy and enthusiasm anymore to do such things as come in 30 minutes early or earlier, this is because we are genuinely fatigued due to the optimiser.

Are you afraid of being locked out ?

Let them lock us out and take it to the FWC.

Where does it say anywhere that we must commence duties before sign on ?

There is nothing illegal with commencing work at sign on time. .

Do you think fair work will come back and say that we must commence work well before sign on ? Bring it on

Ollie Onion

16th Jul 2019, 05:10

A_pilot, I wholeheartedly agree with you. Funnily enough when I was discussing BOC flying with one of our older resource managers (MB) his exact words to me around FRMS and possible new work rules was ‘be careful what you wish for, all our info says that we will be able to fly you more with less rest!’. I await September :-), I rarely get good rest in hotels with cleaners etc and just won’t go to work if I am not rested.

Ragnor

16th Jul 2019, 10:11

Does anyone know If this jepp system accounts for fatigue, crew life style and wellbeing? What I’ve seen of the mirroring rosters that’s getting around it purely a financial optimizer for the company. Pairings I have seen are horrible,
Pax 6am to a hotel to operate BOC that night then pax home after arrival to drive home in peak he traffic. Another out of ADL is a 4 day trip all BOC flying, early start late finish for min rest in days off etc.

das Uber Soldat

16th Jul 2019, 12:02

Sounds fun, can't wait.

wheels_down

16th Jul 2019, 13:50

And all for 15% less $$$ than the fellow Airbus competitor who are usually home each night with next to no BOC.

And they want you to work even harder? Whaaaaaaaaaaaat?

Weapons Grade

16th Jul 2019, 17:40

And all for 15% less $$$ than the fellow Airbus competitor who are usually home each night with next to no BOC.

And they want you to work even harder? Whaaaaaaaaaaaat?

From the SMH:
Tigerair ran at an $8 million loss in the first half of this year on an earnings before interest and tax basis, and a $36 million loss in 2018, adding to the Virgin Group's $653 million loss that year.

Perhaps the Tiger EBA may not be the panacea their pilots were looking for?

drunk_pilot

17th Jul 2019, 00:00

From the SMH:
Tigerair ran at an $8 million loss in the first half of this year on an earnings before interest and tax basis, and a $36 million loss in 2018, adding to the Virgin Group's $653 million loss that year.

Perhaps the Tiger EBA may not be the panacea their pilots were looking for?

So on that basis, there really shouldn’t be any excuse to not get at least equal pay and conditions, if not better? I’m not a JQ pilot, but some of the people there really swallow up the management tripe too easily..

Ollie Onion

17th Jul 2019, 00:46

I think the point is, we can't really say that the Tiger deal is the new A320 benchmark in Australia as if the company goes bust in 12 months time and is wound up then what ever the EBA was is irrelevant. I can assure you that is what Jetstar will say in reaction to us saying 'we should get paid more than Tiger'. They will just say, they know how much cost they can associate with the new EBA and they won't go above that regardless of what the Tiger deal is, in their minds it will be 3%.

PoppaJo

17th Jul 2019, 03:55

Weapons Grade

17th Jul 2019, 05:57

Issue for Tiger is the leisure market has gone backwards in the last half. First major declines since 2012. We won’t know how bad it is until full year results. QF were fairly vocal in seeing the same trend but can offset it via other revenue streams. Virgin can’t. Jetstar Domestic is nothing short of bullet proof it seems.

If this leisure revenue had simply moved downwards from VA and QF to JQ/TT then Tiger should only be getting bigger. If Tiger has gone backwards then I’d expect consolidation and Virgin to bring in the Economy Basic bucket like JetBlue.
The heliograph flashing from Village Virgin is that there is to be an announcement by COB Friday regarding the current status and future of Tiger.
The smart money is that Tiger will close, and be absorbed into Virgin, which at last glance, was north of $1.6B loss over the last 6 years. One opines that Virgin will be between nowhere and nowhere as it cannot compete with Qantas group's premium (sic) service, and cannot compete with Qantas group's low cost carrier services.
My tray table is stowed; my reclining seat/bed is now in the takeoff and landing position; and, am awaiting the onset of severe turbulence which is forecast.
Perhaps it is just a rumour, and will amount to nought. Perhaps.

Ollie Onion

17th Jul 2019, 06:57

And this wouldn't be the first time that a company has agreed a new employment agreement to keep the workers going until the end which was already planned for. Hopefully it is just rumour but it seems to be the sensible solution given the financial position of Virgin.

Ragnor

17th Jul 2019, 08:01

One has to wonder where a company is struggling financially got the excess money to pay such a big pay rise for the Tiger crew, also the ATR agreement was passed with a substantial pay rise I’ve heard. Where is VA getting all this money from?!

Berealgetreal

17th Jul 2019, 10:20

If Tiger goes its nothing to do with pilot wages. Virgin have been talking about merging narrow body pilot EBA’s so all pilots can fly all routes with everyone.

Your management has certainly got you QF group guys brainwashed into thinking that it’s the pilot conditions or lack thereof that determine the success or failure of the company.

If Tiger does get wound up get ready for a new entrant such as Air Asia into the LCC space and then you
really will have Buckley’s and none in getting a payrise.

The new CEO (a nice change) has a magnifying glass over the financial situation. Certainly I’d expect to see some big changes coming.

All the best to JQ/QF guys, you work hard and make bucket loads of money for the company year after year I think you deserve better.

Arthur D

17th Jul 2019, 11:29

So let me get this right. The logic is just go for it, bring on a fight because Tiger will be wound up and you should get all you can before there is a new entrant?

Interesting that notions like job security and promotion are ignored to the point where the only consideration is $$. Years ago I remember a certain blue tailed carrier disappearing. One of the many nooses strangling the golden goose was inflated employee agreements, including pilots.

With a Group CEO who grounded the fleet in 2011, a soft economy, low inflation and wage rises running at less than 2% I think its a great idea that Jetstar pilots pick a fight.

Wheres Brian, does anyone know where we can find him?

Clipster

17th Jul 2019, 11:53

So if Tiger is wound up the pilots will be given an even bigger payrise as they join the Virgin Australia payroll. But those naughty Jetstar pilots should accept whatever they are given and be happy.. I’d say the chances are slim to none. But hey, everyone has their opinion.

Buster Hyman

17th Jul 2019, 13:23

The Tiger brand is damaged goods. Their EBA was agreed in order to just keep it flying until VA are ready to act, as Ollie has said. VA will regroup & restart in the LCC market & I reckon that the new entities EBA will be aligned exactly how they want it... just my 2c.

73qanda

17th Jul 2019, 21:18

If Virgin can bite the bullet and forget the sunk costs of the last decade and get back to their roots they might have a clear path ahead. If they keep on competing in a space that is virtually non existent then they’ll keep on losing money. My two cents.

gordonfvckingramsay

17th Jul 2019, 23:52

wheels_down

17th Jul 2019, 23:53

Virgin cannot go back.

Analysts estimated it would cost $1 Billion to go backwards again.

They can only tweak with what they have. Hard calls will be made.

porch monkey

18th Jul 2019, 00:00

Wow. For a thread titled Jetstar EBA, there sure is a lot of interest in Virgin. When was the last time any worker group got their payrise by pointing at the competitor and saying "We deserve that, 'cause that's what they have???" Anybody? Bueller?

73qanda

18th Jul 2019, 00:28

Virgin cannot go back.

Analysts estimated it would cost $1 Billion to go backwards again.
I estimate it will cost $1.1 Billion to not go back :)

Rated De

18th Jul 2019, 12:45

People seem transfixed on the “pay rise” aspect only and how it’s risky in a softening economy. Anything being asked for in this latest round of EBAs is merely a correction (not a pay rise) to the stagnated wage growth forced upon pilots during the last decade or so. Airlines have skimmed the cream off that wage stagnation for a very long time. Talk of company failures and the end of days in aviation is old playbook smoke and mirrors, and pretty boring.

Quite correct.

The playbook involves using contractors and outsourcing. Then of course drag out "negotiation" until the economic cycle rolls over and then begin in earnest the scare campaign.

That the EBA outcomes are held at CPI ( a government derived measure that lacks any real reference to cost of living) real wages (purchasing power) has declined in most western economies over the last decades (plural)

Wash, rinse and repeat.

PPRuNeUser0198

18th Jul 2019, 13:53

The smart money is that Tiger will close, and be absorbed into Virgin, which at last glance, was north of $1.6B loss over the last 6 years.

Won't happen. Firstly - don't look at statutory loss. It is irrelevant. Care about cash. Is it generating free cash. That's what matters. Whilst we wait for the full-year results, which, we can all expect will be poor thanks to FX and fuel impacts (all airlines), we need to look closely at operating margin to see how dire the business really is. And that is the same for VA. And of course leverage and interest cover, and what direction they are headed.

If TT can maintain a positive EBITDA - then it isn't a burden on VA's balance sheet, and provides the competitive protection from another start-up coming in and having a go aka Lion Air, Air Asia etc.

Blueskymine

18th Jul 2019, 22:40

I think QF allows tiger and virgin to scrape by.

Imagine if they had a cashed up strong competitor come in?

As for JQ. If the EBA is any less than Tiger, there would be a large and significant uproar. The only way this will get over the line is if they play dirty. IE offer deals to the SOs and FOs or Captains and SOs etc to get the required 50.1% yes.

Whatever the outcome, it’s going to be a pissed off pilot workforce. There ain’t no bigger piece of the pie anymore. It’s just squabbling over who gets the most crumbs.

davidclarke

19th Jul 2019, 06:31

The heliograph flashing from Village Virgin is that there is to be an announcement by COB Friday regarding the current status and future of Tiger.
The smart money is that Tiger will close, and be absorbed into Virgin, which at last glance, was north of $1.6B loss over the last 6 years. One opines that Virgin will be between nowhere and nowhere as it cannot compete with Qantas group's premium (sic) service, and cannot compete with Qantas group's low cost carrier services.
My tray table is stowed; my reclining seat/bed is now in the takeoff and landing position; and, am awaiting the onset of severe turbulence which is forecast.
Perhaps it is just a rumour, and will amount to nought. Perhaps.

Looks like that Heliograph is signaling something else. Almost COB Friday......nothings happened.

a_pilot

23rd Jul 2019, 05:44

Qantas 2011 (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/623808-qantas-2011-grounding-about-revisited.html)

The fuel bill for the group last FY was $3.232B - how much can we add to that? 5%? 10%?? Easiest PIA ever - no pax inconvenienced

Ragnor

27th Jul 2019, 06:45

Could I be correct in assuming there is minimal crew engagement regarding the uniforms with the note attached at sign on this afternoon?

73qanda

27th Jul 2019, 09:09

You’ll have to explain Ragnor

ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE

27th Jul 2019, 10:11

Could I be correct in assuming there is minimal crew engagement regarding the uniforms with the note attached at sign on this afternoon?

every pilot I’ve spoken to has done the survey. No point whining about the new uniform if you didn’t have your say when given the chance

Ollie Onion

27th Jul 2019, 10:55

Hats for everyone and new polo shirts with our embroided names. Should make up appear more hip and fun ;-)

Blueskymine

27th Jul 2019, 11:30

It’ll end up being the black cabin crew uniform with orange bars and an orange jacket :)

Kind of like the qantas one being cabin crew shirts and jackets/pants etc with a different tie and bars/wings.

Rated De

27th Jul 2019, 21:00

every pilot I’ve spoken to has done the survey. No point whining about the new uniform if you didn’t have your say when given the chance

Kind of like the qantas one being cabin crew shirts and jackets/pants etc with a different tie and bars/wings.

Precisely.

Surveys don't matter. Nodding heads will feign their interest as long as it takes to sign a supply contract. That contract will align supply chains with cabin crew and ground crew to minimise unit cost.
Pretending to care is the modern corporate. The new uniform a mix of toxicity and impracticality, with plenty of man-made chemical compounds floating around. Much cheaper than cotton and wool.

https://www.inquisitr.com/4346446/american-airlines-flight-attendants-and-pilots-claim-new-uniforms-are-poisoning-them/

Flava Saver

4th Aug 2019, 08:13

Any delays beyond 15 mins is recorded as an OTP delay. I guess when they kick even the nicest of dogs enough, they will bite so the saying goes. Shame to be hearing that the good will appears to have run out with the line drivers.

Ollie Onion

4th Aug 2019, 23:06

Fact of the matter is that the timing is terrible, expect a big profit announcement followed closely by all the messaging around softening demand, slowing global growth etc. There will be no massive gains in this contract, I base this on EVERY negotiation so far where the pilot group has been out manoeuvred by management at every step, why is it going to be any different this time around? I say this to everyone I fly with to try and get a bit of spark lit up for a scrap but generally most just go ‘yep that’s what I think too’.

Waffersticks

14th Aug 2019, 18:53

HI guys, not sure if this is the correct thread or not but regarding all of the contract concerns I am curious to know what the majority union for Jetstar Australia is.
Thanks for your troubles.

ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE

15th Aug 2019, 01:43

AFAP have the majority

Flava Saver

30th Oct 2019, 00:56

...this has gone quiet?

LostontheLOC

30th Oct 2019, 02:16

Seems like it.

Sceva

30th Oct 2019, 09:40

https://www.news.com.au/finance/work/at-work/pilot-slams-qantas-boss-alan-joyces-24-million-salary/news-story/077637288a651612d7949e80fab32e29?utm_campaign=EditorialSF&utm_source=News.com.au&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_content=SocialFlow

wheels_down

30th Oct 2019, 09:45

Is there any argument for why JQ should pay less than Tiger?

Ollie Onion

31st Oct 2019, 03:41

Because Tiger seems content to run it’s business at a loss to ensure market share and ALL of it’s costs are not the true market rate / value that can be sustained long term.

What The

31st Oct 2019, 06:19

Because Tiger seems content to run it’s business at a loss to ensure market share and ALL of it’s costs are not the true market rate / value that can be sustained long term.

Sounds like Jetstar.

Ollie Onion

31st Oct 2019, 08:17

Absolutely no argument from me, the difference being the Qantas Group is making money.......... where as the Virgin group! And by the way I don't think that pilot costs are the make and break of a profit but I would think QF management would argue that ALL virgin costs are too high and Qantas can't or won't match them. I think it only becomes the 'market rate' when the business is viable or QF is forced to raise Jetstars terms and conditions to retain pilots as they are all leaving for Virgin.

Ragnor

1st Nov 2019, 02:54

...this has gone quiet?

What would you expect, given the company are not interested.

wheels_down

13th Nov 2019, 03:14

The AFAP today applied to the FWC for a ballet in regards to IA this December.

as good as it gets

13th Nov 2019, 03:30

Jetstar could face Christmas disruptions over pilot dispute
Budget airline Jetstar could face disruptions over the busy Christmas period after pay negotiations with its pilots broke down.

The Australian Federation of Air Pilots said on Wednesday it had applied to the Fair Work Commission to hold a vote among Jetstar pilots on taking protected industrial action.

The proposed actions range from general work-to-rule (pilots not working outside of their rostered hours) to work stoppages of up to 24 hours, AFAP said. Jetstar is able to object to some forms of action with Fair Work today, before pilots vote on them.

Jetstar and the union are at loggerheads over pay, with the airline saying it has proposed a 3 per cent annual wage rise but that the union wants a deal that would increase "pilot costs" by 15 per cent.

AFAP executive director Simon Lutton said the union was taking the step because its members were disappointed negotiations with Jetstar over a new enterprise agreement had stalled.

“As negotiating with the company in good faith has got them nowhere, they have been left with no choice," Mr Lutton said.

A Jetstar spokeswoman said it had been in constructive discussions about the new wage deal since January and remained committed to reaching an agreement, "but not at any cost".

"There are many complex areas to discuss and working through the AFAP’s numerous claims and their many modifications takes time," she said.

Mr Lutton said AFAP members, who make up the majority of Jetstar's pilots, were unhappy with salary and conditions, and concerned about how the airline's rostering practices affected pilot fatigue.

Jetstar said captains on its fleet of narrow body jets earned $304,576 on average and first officers earned $184,260 last year, including superannuation and allowances. On larger aircraft which fly international routes, that went up to $323,274 and $234,516.

The wage dispute comes at a time when Jetstar and its owner Qantas are coming under pressure from falling demand, particularly among holidaymakers, who are choosing not to travel amid softening economic conditions.

Jetstar's unit revenue - an industry figure used to measure passenger traffic - fell 2.6 per cent in the first quarter of the year.

More to come

Bug Smasher Smasher

13th Nov 2019, 04:20

The AFAP today applied to the FWC for a ballet in regards to IA this December.
Negotiations by interpretive dance?

CurtainTwitcher

13th Nov 2019, 04:33

Negotiations by interpretive dance?
Well, it does follow a well worn tradition from at least 1971:Protein synthesis: an epic on the cellular level, an interpretive dance...

Ollie Onion

13th Nov 2019, 04:37

Ah, a December to Remember!

Rated De

13th Nov 2019, 05:20

What an unwelcome development.
Resplendent in wedded bliss, the region's most highly remunerated airline executive nearly choked on a sausage, at breakfast time.

Options on the table include:

Jetstar too in "terminal decline" (not sure how to write the necessary "transformation" options against a wholly owned subsidiary)
Have "Stream Lead" Now lead QF IR negotiator Safe intervene? Like a modern Rudolf Hess. (unfortunately his flying is usually at the expense of colleagues, ten bits of silver and all)
Call Jetstar pilots "kamikaze" claim they need first class massages and such
Ground them and lock them out?
Farm out flying to Network?
Link new aircraft types to "productivity" improvement?

What to do, what to do.

Blueskymine

13th Nov 2019, 05:23

Those A321s would certainly come in handy at mainline.

Just saying.

wheels_down

13th Nov 2019, 06:19

Here is an idea. Just pay the damn market rates.

A chart at one end (far) has Qantas, Virgin, Tiger. At the other end is Air NZ, Jetstar NZ, Jetconnect and Virgin Kiwi.

Jetstar sit in the middle with the likes of regional jet operators.

Why are they not down the far end?

ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE

13th Nov 2019, 07:36

Those A321s would certainly come in handy at mainline.

Just saying.

we’re not stupid enough to believe that the group allocates aircraft solely based on pilot wages, unlike the QF guys did when agreeing to their 787 deal

Blueskymine

13th Nov 2019, 08:06

we’re not stupid enough to believe that the group allocates aircraft solely based on pilot wages, unlike the QF guys did when agreeing to their 787 deal

Which is still superior to the JQ 787 conditions in just about every way. Except perhaps day off protection and blank lines.

Angle of Attack

13th Nov 2019, 08:33

And you guys accepted ****house conditions all those years ago, you can’t rapidly change it your stuck with **** for the foreseeable future, that’s the way it works.

Beer Baron

13th Nov 2019, 08:43

we’re not stupid enough to believe that the group allocates aircraft solely based on pilot wages,
Probably because Jetstar business units get investment in aircraft regardless of making a profit. Must be a nice way to live.

Despite ECAM ACTIONS’s stupid comments, I wish all Jetstar pilots the very best of luck with your PIA. Good on you for standing up to the company and fighting for the conditions you deserve.

ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE

13th Nov 2019, 08:50

And you guys accepted ****house conditions all those years ago, you can’t rapidly change it your stuck with **** for the foreseeable future, that’s the way it works.

Qantas pilots have the benefit of many grandfathered terms and conditions from when qantas was a government owned airline, which is great. The JQ guys and gals are doing their best to try and fight for better T&Cs from a deal that the vast majority of us weren’t here to agree to when the airline was established (I myself was in primary school in 2004!).

Rated De

13th Nov 2019, 09:41

Qantas pilots have the benefit of many grandfathered terms and conditions from when qantas was a government owned airline, which is great. The JQ guys and gals are doing their best to try and fight for better T&Cs from a deal that the vast majority of us weren’t here to agree to when the airline was established (I myself was in primary school in 2004!).

It is actually a little from column A and a little from column B.
Low Fare Airlines whilst a real alternative (like SWA) actually didn't, despite the lack of grandfathering, government ownership or even protectionism actually push Low Wages.
The low wage phenomena was driven by consulting firms with a spreadsheet approach to running airlines.

They included:

$50(or so) million of seed capital
Multi user terminals
Leased fleet
Terms and conditions whereby more of the salary/wage was at risk.

The idea was have a go and see how it works. That there have been scores of start ups and failures in Europe is testament to :

1. The limitation of unit cost control
2. Response of established carriers.

Key in this was the oversupply of pilots, usually self funded such that an "airline" had minimal investment in and as such was low risk strategy.The externality borne by the "applicant" who probably paid for testing and attendance. In the case of Ryanair uniforms too.
Perhaps the saddest irony of the Jetstar model is that instead of complimenting the full service offering, myopic management focused on IR and setting work groups against each other. Convicted criminal former CFO Gregg said precisely that at a Parliamentary enquiry: "Jetstar would add competitive tension to labour unit cost" (paraphrase)

Not content, myopic management driven by spreadsheets saw JQ the answer to everything. Doing so they neglected the Achilles heel of low fare airlines: yield.
Jumping the shark is a Qantas specialty so they took JQ International. They hide it in the accounts but it bleeds cash just like the franchises.
For an airline the size of JQ it exhibits classic overscale tendencies: Too much capacity for the revenue it generates.

Mr Evans has his work cut out for him.

The stellar expansion enjoyed by JQ pilots at the expense of Qantas pilots is well documented. Pilots quickly gained promotions while Qantas languished.
The business is now over scale. That means JQ pilots have a fight on their hands.
As JQ was deployed against Qantas, it is probable Qantas will be deployed against JQ as will Network aviation or others in a conga line of acquisitions.....
If Mr Evans and JQ surrender any ground then the revenue margin, already narrow, may well invert!

Transition Layer

13th Nov 2019, 10:34

What The

13th Nov 2019, 11:12

I believe all Qantas line pilots are behind you and most if not all of the short haul pilots wish they could join you. Good luck with it.

ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE

13th Nov 2019, 16:48

No wonder your comments come across as though they’re written by an ignorant child. You are an ignorant child!

okay boomer

Sparrows.

13th Nov 2019, 18:38

So the Feds have applied for a PIA ballot. I haven’t seen anything from AIPA..... anyone else?

Berealgetreal

13th Nov 2019, 19:50

Virgin NZ eba isn’t far off the Virgin Aus rate FYI. Recently voted eba. Virgin group narrow body rates are all pretty similar now only differences are the work rules.

In the Tiger instance the offer changed markedly during PIA.

I see it getting ugly as you have the record breaking CEO salary, record breaking profits and lowest conditions. Might very well be a December to remember.

Hope it helps, all the best.

dragon man

13th Nov 2019, 20:12

AIPA are going to do a survey, great plan. PIA should IMO just be a withdrawal of cooperation, won’t take long for the wheels to fall off. Best of luck.

Lezzeno

13th Nov 2019, 21:04

AIPA are going to do a survey

Followed by a comfort letter?

Window heat

13th Nov 2019, 21:31

Rated De

13th Nov 2019, 21:38

The surveys are actually important. In the early part of my career we weren’t asked what we wanted to give or get. Now the members are asked for their opinions to give guidance to the negotiating team.

So is it the case that AIPA will survey AFTER months of "negotiation"? What was talked about for months on end?

Window heat

13th Nov 2019, 21:58

It is actually a little from column A and a little from column B.
Low Fare Airlines whilst a real alternative (like SWA) actually didn't, despite the lack of grandfathering, government ownership or even protectionism actually push Low Wages.
The low wage phenomena was driven by consulting firms with a spreadsheet approach to running airlines.

They included:

$50(or so) million of seed capital
Multi user terminals
Leased fleet
Terms and conditions whereby more of the salary/wage was at risk.

The idea was have a go and see how it works. That there have been scores of start ups and failures in Europe is testament to :

1. The limitation of unit cost control
2. Response of established carriers.

Key in this was the oversupply of pilots, usually self funded such that an "airline" had minimal investment in and as such was low risk strategy.The externality borne by the "applicant" who probably paid for testing and attendance. In the case of Ryanair uniforms too.
Perhaps the saddest irony of the Jetstar model is that instead of complimenting the full service offering, myopic management focused on IR and setting work groups against each other. Convicted criminal former CFO Gregg said precisely that at a Parliamentary enquiry: "Jetstar would add competitive tension to labour unit cost" (paraphrase)

Not content, myopic management driven by spreadsheets saw JQ the answer to everything. Doing so they neglected the Achilles heel of low fare airlines: yield.
Jumping the shark is a Qantas specialty so they took JQ International. They hide it in the accounts but it bleeds cash just like the franchises.
For an airline the size of JQ it exhibits classic overscale tendencies: Too much capacity for the revenue it generates.

Mr Evans has his work cut out for him.

The stellar expansion enjoyed by JQ pilots at the expense of Qantas pilots is well documented. Pilots quickly gained promotions while Qantas languished.
The business is now over scale. That means JQ pilots have a fight on their hands.
As JQ was deployed against Qantas, it is probable Qantas will be deployed against JQ as will Network aviation or others in a conga line of acquisitions.....
If Mr Evans and JQ surrender any ground then the revenue margin, already narrow, may well invert!

That’s a great précis of my industrial experience in the company. The industrial wedge of JQ took over from “convergence with Virgin” when Borghetti pushed their cost base through the roof. The average QF pilot has had a 10 year career freeze at the expense of the JQ investment, all in all a positive experience for those who chose to go Orange. Joyce is so invested in JQ that he cannot let it fail, despite being overscale as pointed out. Just as Dixon was setting up himself for a massive payout over the years leading up to the Allco buyout, Joyce is setting up his payout, if JQ costs go the way of Virgin, the share price tanks and he stands to lose millions.

HomeJames

13th Nov 2019, 21:59

A little birdie,

Thankyou for your considered and constructive contribution /s

SandyPalms

13th Nov 2019, 22:39

Such a w****r ECAM. I’m 42.

disappointing coming from a person in a group who, by other looks of things, might need some support.

No Idea Either

13th Nov 2019, 23:06

Lol. Nice try youngling. Not by a long shot. Even if I were the only people who think that’s an effective retort are ignorant children. You didn’t even have the smarts to think up your own retort. D-. More effort required.

ouch..........

Ollie Onion

14th Nov 2019, 01:20

This is playing right into the companies hands. At heir latest roadshows in NZ they dropped the old chestnut that if the EBA can’t be resolved or becomes too costly they may have to move flying and or new airframes to other entities as the Aussie operation will have made itself too expensive. Now obviously we can see what they are trying to do but I don’t think they will be upset at this development as they are quite skilled in divide and conquer. Also the company seem quite keen on opening the NZ contract negotiation soon which would mean both the EBA and NZ CEA under negotiation at the same time, I wonder why they would want that!

wheels_down

14th Nov 2019, 03:26

Ollie I can understand that playing out in Kiwi land, that operation loses money. It would probably be cheaper outsourcing the entire Kiwi operation to Oz crews.

I’m not overly sure they would throw market share away because of pilot wages. It’s not the wages, it’s ceding share to Scurrah which he won’t do.

Rated De

14th Nov 2019, 04:55

TimmyTee

14th Nov 2019, 06:43

Ch7 news Melb just tore down JQ pilots.. In a segment about "jetstar pilots ruining your Christmas plans", the reporter said simply "jetstar pilots earn $330,00 a year!" and "jetstar are looking to instead continue negotiations to avoid pilots grounding flights"..

Someone's gotta keep up with the game and counter these highly one sided reports to the masses...

CurtainTwitcher

14th Nov 2019, 07:10

How much advertising revenue does a pilots union purchase in the media market? How about the Qantas group? There is your answer.

The commercial media is there to make a profit and facilitate influence to the highest bidder. The truth, a balanced story from the commercial media, good luck with that.

Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed: everything else is public relations.
--George Orwell

Oriana

14th Nov 2019, 08:15

Who gives a ****e what the news say - it ain’t a popularity contest.

You just gotta have a thick skin, don’t read the news and have resolve.

Good luck to the JQ Crews. If Ryanair guys can strike, and Hong Kongers can take it to the Chinese, I’m sure they can invoke their industrial rights in a democracy.

Rated De

14th Nov 2019, 08:27

Every Battle is won before it is ever fought.

- Sun Tzu

The media and established power structures including employment relations are heavily slanted one way. It sure isn't the way of the employee.
No point fighting their strengths or trying to counter them. They have deeper pockets.

This is won in Operating Revenue impact.

With a finely balanced low yield business, even just not answering the phone when crewing decide to call is powerful.
Asymmetric options will wrong foot the well armoured dinosaur!

Arthur D

14th Nov 2019, 08:57

Rubbish.

So someone in the negotiating team thought.... ‘I know, we’ll outsmart em, lets do PIA...... check mate Jetstar.’ I can just imagine the backslapping and grandstanding after 50 beers at the BP.

Really? Hats off for strategic thinking boys.

JQ will drag you through the media and internal Comms. Be prepared to experience the ire of the general public and your other work colleagues alike.

Moreover - are you ready for the bigger fight with the mother ship and its leader?

Right now throughout the Qantas Group (and Virgin) non operational staff on significantly less $$ than pilots are being handed letters and told to eff off by the 15th December. Meanwhile, those who are left need to figure out how to get the same work done with less people. Most of these people can only dream of $200k, let alone $300k.

As for wanting more than 3%, are you aware that the rest of the country is getting 2%?????

Paddleboat

14th Nov 2019, 11:57

Arthur D;

Posts like this do my head in.

In other news, JQ management is running around declaring to every media organization that NB Captains make 305k a year for flying 75 hours a month.

If they offered the pilot body that deal, it'd be signed tomorrow. 305 for 75 hours? Man I'm in.

2theline

14th Nov 2019, 12:07

JQ will drag you through the media and internal Comms. Be prepared to experience the ire of the general public and your other work colleagues

So what? I'm still to hear a convincing argument as to why this should hold JQ pilots back from fighting for their future.

Lets not forget the general publics disgust with todays corporate greed. JQ pilots will be forced to once again go backwards in pay and conditions whilst the corporate execs continue to reap the benefits. Given this, it's not hard to see why JQ pilots are pissed off!

dragon man

14th Nov 2019, 18:32

So what? I'm still to hear a convincing argument as to why this should hold JQ pilots back from fighting for their future.

Lets not forget the general publics disgust with todays corporate greed. JQ pilots will be forced to once again go backwards in pay and conditions whilst the corporate execs continue to reap the benefits. Given this, it's not hard to see why JQ pilots are pissed off!

Nailed it. The more you give them the more they will piss in their own pockets and get larger bonuses. The AFAP and It’s Jetstar members have balls. Wish you all the best.

Beer Baron

14th Nov 2019, 18:44

Right now throughout the Qantas Group (and Virgin) non operational staff on significantly less $$ than pilots are being handed letters and told to eff off by the 15th December. Meanwhile, those who are left need to figure out how to get the same work done with less people. Most of these people can only dream of $200k, let alone $300k.

As for wanting more than 3%, are you aware that the rest of the country is getting 2%?????
All of that is quite irrelevant. What matters is market forces. So what do RPT jet pilots get paid in Australia, what do they get paid in Asia, what are they paid in the US? Is there a surplus or is there a shortage? Are there barriers to entry so JQ can’t easily train someone off the street?

These are the things that influence pilot remuneration, not national average wage growth figures. JQ conditions are behind their Group colleagues and behind their major competitors so clearly there is some catching up to do. JQ is making hundreds of millions in profit so they certainly have the capacity to afford it.

ScepticalOptomist

14th Nov 2019, 18:51

Rubbish.
Right now throughout the Qantas Group (and Virgin) non operational staff on significantly less $$ than pilots are being handed letters and told to eff off by the 15th December. Meanwhile, those who are left need to figure out how to get the same work done with less people. Most of these people can only dream of $200k, let alone $300k.

As for wanting more than 3%, are you aware that the rest of the country is getting 2%?????

Cry me a river - paid leave over Xmas. Whatever their salary, it was bargained for - and remunerated according to their role. If they want to earn what a pilot does? Become a pilot.
My surgeon mate is on $750K - don’t begrudge him at all - I’m not a surgeon..

As for the 2% - Qantas Grouo all took some pay freezes previously. Time to pay up while “the getting is good”.

Bring on the fight - enough is enough.

Good luck and stay strong.

What The

14th Nov 2019, 20:18

So someone in the negotiating team thought.... ‘I know, we’ll outsmart em, lets do PIA...... check mate Jetstar.’ I can just imagine the backslapping and grandstanding after 50 beers at the BP.

That’s a bit flippant don’t you think? I am sure that considerable resources have been used to get to this stage and the pilots and their union have considered all options before getting to this point. Unfortunately this seems to be the only thing that Qantas I.R. understand. It controls the adversarial model.

JQ will drag you through the media and internal Comms. Be prepared to experience the ire of the general public and your other work colleagues alike.

So?
I think you would be surprised if you came out of your cave what the other operational staff think. There is no love for the basket weaving street dwellers out there I can assure you. I gave up caring about what other people think about me a long time ago.

Moreover - are you ready for the bigger fight with the mother ship and its leader?

See you have put a word in there that doesn’t belong. Delete “leader” and insert “narcissistic overpaid self promoting manager” and there you have it.
He is not a leader. Not by a long stretch.
It looks like they are ready for that fight too BTW.

Right now throughout the Qantas Group (and Virgin) non operational staff on significantly less $$ than pilots are being handed letters and told to eff off by the 15th December. Meanwhile, those who are left need to figure out how to get the same work done with less people.

Why has the business allowed itself to get over staffed that it gets to this point?
I certainly do not see any fat in the operational areas, in fact, quite the opposite. Operational areas have been cut over many years and are critically understaffed in a lot of areas.
Sounds like you are referring to the basket weavers again. Well, you have to share the pain if cuts are needed.
Ask the Airport staff how much pain they have suffered. Ask the Engineers and Ramp as well while you are at it.

Most of these people can only dream of $200k, let alone $300k.

Possibly your dumbest statement.
Most of these people do not hold the qualification to earn that sort of money.
I tell you what, there are a lot of people who dream every week of winning 24 million dollars.

As for wanting more than 3%, are you aware that the rest of the country is getting 2%?????

So?
My insurances went up 7%. Should I write and tell them that as my pay only went up 2% that is all they can do? Or freeze their premiums when I took a pay freeze MULTIPLE times.
You get what you bargain for and I wish the JQ pilots all the very best in their endeavours. They deserve it. Unlike the obscene amounts of money being stolen from the business by managers.

Blitzkrieger

14th Nov 2019, 20:23

Qantas IR is a huge empire. Creating conflict and dissent, pitting people against each other.

They will spare no expense to prove a point industrial. Economics, logic and common sense won't sway them it is ideology.

Bingo! The only weapon QF have is factional infighting between the different parts of the group. The only thing that will sway them from this tactic is direct proof that it doesn’t work anymore. In my old company (Cobham) they dusted off the same old negotiation tactics for the last EA negotiations, pilots did exactly what they didn’t expect and the agreement took a quantum leap forward. They are so afraid of the pilots’ ability to be cohesive that the new rhetoric is more vicious, less believable and more desperate than ever before. Negotiations don’t start till next year.

Don’t believe the bull$hit and STICK TOGETHER!!

Ollie Onion

14th Nov 2019, 20:36

To be honest I don’t give a s*$t if other people think my earnings are too high. They are welcome to licence up and earn that money too, just as I could go back to uni if I wanted to earn the $1 million plus that my mate earns as a surgeon. Pilot salaries should only be compared to pilot salaries, my point is that Qantas IR wants the IR action as it gives them a chance to try and split the pilot group (further) knowing that a fractured group is easier to control.

non_state_actor

14th Nov 2019, 23:00

The AFR is publishing that average Jetstar Cpt/FO widebody pay including super is $323, 274/ $234,516 and $304,576/184,260 for A320.

sumtingwong

14th Nov 2019, 23:46

Retort of the year What The.
Well said.

Vindiesel

15th Nov 2019, 03:57

Every Battle is won before it is ever fought.

- Sun Tzu

This is won in Operating Revenue impact.

How's all that ancient Chinese miltary strategy working out for BALPA in British AIrways? https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/british-airways-pilots-10-day-20792927

Rated De

15th Nov 2019, 04:41

How's all that ancient Chinese miltary strategy working out for BALPA in British AIrways? https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/british-airways-pilots-10-day-20792927

Not having seen the intended deal yet, perhaps BALPA would be the best judge of which element of ancient Chinese military strategy applies.
The BA pilots themselves will either reject or accept the intended offer.

..... If angry, irritate him. If equally matched, fight and if not: split and re-evaluate.

Whether the Sun can be believed a reputable source of information is one thing.
Withdrawal of labour is a big undertaking and the system now is heavily stacked against organised labour.

Fair Work is "fair" in name only.

With CPI under quoting real lived inflation (as the definition excludes many necessities) and the "Accord" held "bargained" outcomes to CPI Real wages have gone only one direction: backwards.

Rated De

15th Nov 2019, 05:03

Why has the business allowed itself to get over staffed that it gets to this point? I certainly do not see any fat in the operational areas, in fact, quite the opposite. Operational areas have been cut over many years and are critically understaffed in a lot of areas.
Sounds like you are referring to the basket weavers again. Well, you have to share the pain if cuts are needed. Ask the Airport staff how much pain they have suffered. Ask the Engineers and Ramp as well while you are at it.

QF are heavy in non-operational staff.
What better way to build an empire of adoring subjects, with whom to wave at from the balcony that "invest" heavily in non-revenue generating staff.

The only thing missing at Coward street are big murals to dear "leader" Little Napoleon

Lookleft

15th Nov 2019, 06:03

Withdrawal of labour is a big undertaking and the system now is heavily stacked against organised labour.

Fair Work is "fair" in name only.

With CPI under quoting real lived inflation (as the definition excludes many necessities) and the "Accord" held "bargained" outcomes to CPI Real wages have gone only one direction: backwards.

Therein lies the problem. PIA is unfortunately tokenism as it can never be any sort of industrial action that can really have an impact. Deciding to launch PIA before any agreement has been reached and with only a portion of the labour force is tokenism taken to a new level. It is more about the politics of showing how tough the union is and reminds me of the displays of a silverback to a rival rather than a call to battle. What is really going on with the Jetstar EBA is a power struggle for the hearts and minds of the pilots. If it was about better conditions and lifestyle balance then there wouldn't be PIA over what is essentially a blankline roster.

wheels_down

15th Nov 2019, 07:32

PIA has no impact? Did you miss the whole Tiger thing? It cost $20 million. They drove management out the door. And I like to think it cost them a Managing Director.

PPRuNeUser0198

15th Nov 2019, 09:37

It was just over $10m actually. They didn't drive management out the door...please! Merren's role was dissolved obviously by Paul as part of his leadership team redesign. You now have the ex-GM of Engineering running TT as a...EGM.

PoppaJo

16th Nov 2019, 02:35

T Vasis on the defence again for anyone Management related...

PS spoke to the peeps on the line. They all had one thing to say. Tiger Management is nothing but a bunch of narrow minded delusional clowns. The proof is in the numbers.

Anyway MM has she pissed on outta there yet?

PPRuNeUser0198

16th Nov 2019, 03:37

You make me laugh PoppaJo. Hardly defending the management team. Simply correcting wheels_down. Have to calm emotional sensationalism. Tigerair has been and continues to be, a long-term failure. It has a poor model and poor strategy. And that is the result of more than just 'management'.

Berealgetreal

16th Nov 2019, 04:14

Anyone on here that thinks the financial woes of the “competition” are as a result of pilot conditions is completely uniformed and possibly delusional. Couldn’t be further from the truth.

KRUSTY 34

16th Nov 2019, 08:01

Cry me a river - paid leave over Xmas. Whatever their salary, it was bargained for - and remunerated according to their role. If they want to earn what a pilot does? Become a pilot.
My surgeon mate is on $750K - don’t begrudge him at all - I’m not a surgeon..

As for the 2% - Qantas Grouo all took some pay freezes previously. Time to pay up while “the getting is good”.

Bring on the fight - enough is enough.

Good luck and stay strong.

Exactly.

As for the argument that We can’t pay pilots more, because then all the staff would want more, What a shallow cynical argument that is.

Bravo Arthur D, it’s clowns like you who continue to devalue our profession.

Predator Jock

16th Nov 2019, 20:38

When can Jetstar, QF Shorthaul and QF Longhaul take PIA?

MickG0105

16th Nov 2019, 23:36

When can Jetstar, QF Shorthaul and QF Longhaul take PIA?
QF pilots aren't parties to the agreement so they won't be able to participate in any protected industrial action.

AFAP must first apply to the FWC for a protected action ballot order. I don't know if that's been started yet but that process won't happen overnight.

Once granted, AFAP need to hold a ballot of members to determine if they are in favour of taking industrial action. I imagine that AFAP will have some rules about notice to members for running ballots so there's likely to be a delay there. The Australian Electoral Commission normally runs those ballots so that's not going to happen overnight either.

If the ballot is successful AFAP then need to give JQ a minimum of three business days notice of their intentions.

Long story short, it'll be a minimum of a few weeks till anyone can down tools.

duffman_84

17th Nov 2019, 02:51

okay boomer
[/QUOTE]

This new saying has got to be one of the dumbest comments to make in a debate. It is pretty arrogant to disregard an entire generation due to their age. Labor tried it earlier this year and lost an election because of it.

And no, I’m not a boomer.

maggot

17th Nov 2019, 05:37

When can Jetstar, QF Shorthaul and QF Longhaul take PIA?

In

12345678

ajax58

17th Nov 2019, 10:41

This new saying has got to be one of the dumbest comments to make in a debate. It is pretty arrogant to disregard an entire generation due to their age. Labor tried it earlier this year and lost an election because of it.

And no, I’m not a boomer.

It was literally in response to someone dismissing them because of their age, so quite fitting in context.

What was this thread about again?

Ragnor

19th Nov 2019, 04:29

Who called who what is irrelevant get over it.

rowdy trousers

20th Nov 2019, 05:09

I wonder why Jetstar did not object to the AFAP’s Fair Work application for a PIA ballot?

Lookleft

20th Nov 2019, 07:05

I wonder why Jetstar did not object to the AFAP’s Fair Work application for a PIA ballot?

Because they are not concerned by it. They will already have contigency plans in place for whatever is agreed to. Remember that all that has happened is that the AFAP has been given legal approval to have a ballot conducted of what form the PIA is to take. If the JQ AFAP pilots think that they will be walking off the job and teaching JQ Management a lesson then they don't understand that the current industrial system is skewed entirely in managements favour. All that will happen at the end of the PIA will be the union reps will sit down with the company reps and the first word spoken will be "Right where were we?"

Rated De

20th Nov 2019, 09:29

Arctaurus

20th Nov 2019, 21:11

With PIA approved by FWA, Jetstar will probably not want to continue talking with the AFAP until the action is either over or cancelled beforehand. I believe PIA voting requirements mean it could get up with a relatively small number of yes votes.

Paddleboat

20th Nov 2019, 23:57

Because they are not concerned by it. They will already have contigency plans in place for whatever is agreed to. Remember that all that has happened is that the AFAP has been given legal approval to have a ballot conducted of what form the PIA is to take. If the JQ AFAP pilots think that they will be walking off the job and teaching JQ Management a lesson then they don't understand that the current industrial system is skewed entirely in managements favour. All that will happen at the end of the PIA will be the union reps will sit down with the company reps and the first word spoken will be "Right where were we?"
So your point is what, give up and take a paycut for offering even more efficiencies, greater capability's and accepting even further responsibility? All whilst management pays themselves further record amounts?

PIA isn't about 'teaching JQ a lesson'. Its about trying to beat some common sense into a set of very recalcitrant executives who view JQ as their own personal ATM machine, pocketing vast sums of money previously earned by the people who do the actual work. The effects of the payfreeze will be felt compounding for the rest of peoples careers, and in the meantime crew are expected to operate the largest narrow body fleet of any airline in the country, most passengers, longest sectors, most sectors, fewest days off and highest approach capability (soon to include 0.1 RNP) , all for the lowest pay by a mile.

What is being asked for is hardly unreasonable. Indeed, should the company offer what they have been running around telling the media in a blatantly dishonest smear campaign, ie, 305k for 75 hours a month, the whole EBA would be signed within a week.

Gear in transit

21st Nov 2019, 00:43

All that will happen at the end of the PIA will be the union reps will sit down with the company reps and the first word spoken will be "Right where were we?"
Well you’re clearly an AIPA member!

What you said is exactly what DIDNT happen in the last round.

wheels_down

21st Nov 2019, 00:54

Well that’s exactly it. I thought that was going to play out at Tiger. How we were very wrong.

They were hostile and didn’t give in at all to Tiger. I had not seen this sort of behaviour before. I think it’s a fair statement that Pilots at the low cost carriers in this country have been taken for a ride of late. There was no negotiation. What they asked for from the get go was essentially given to them, albeit a few minor tweaks as expected. It was very simple. This is what we are after, if not it’s PIA. This occurred each meeting. I think they were up to 10 strikes at this points and 10 million in the red.

The same language and activity is happening here so I’m quite confident Simon will get this one across the line also.

Simon is very clear in that Jetstar are the lowest paid drivers in this country. I can’t see him signing a deal that maintains this argument.

You need to to start looking past all the QF rubbish that has occurred across the years. I sense fear in many voices on here in regards to taking on the company in trying to get this across the line?

You need to start playing like a Tiger, not acting like a Kangaroo.

Lookleft

21st Nov 2019, 03:18

Well you’re clearly an AIPA member!

What you said is exactly what DIDNT happen in the last round.

And you are clearly an AFAP member, there you go one all. So tell us from your side of the fence what you think will happen? What would type of PIA would you like to see and what do you want to see as a result of it? From what I have seen from those agitating for PIA they just want to vent and let of steam because AJ gets 24m a year! No one has said or discussed what they want to be the result of PIA they just want PIA. After the PIA the agreement still has to be finalised and from what I can tell that stage hasn't been reached. So what happens after PIA and you don't like the agreement, do you then go through the laborious process of applying for PIA again? Just to be clear no Jetstar pilot is going on strike over Christmas be they AFAP or AIPA so the question is, what is the point?

Gear in transit

21st Nov 2019, 05:10

And you are clearly an AFAP member, there you go one all. So tell us from your side of the fence what you think will happen? What would type of PIA would you like to see and what do you want to see as a result of it? From what I have seen from those agitating for PIA they just want to vent and let of steam because AJ gets 24m a year! No one has said or discussed what they want to be the result of PIA they just want PIA. After the PIA the agreement still has to be finalised and from what I can tell that stage hasn't been reached. So what happens after PIA and you don't like the agreement, do you then go through the laborious process of applying for PIA again? Just to be clear no Jetstar pilot is going on strike over Christmas be they AFAP or AIPA so the question is, what is the point?

What do I think will happen? One of two things.... depending on what is around the corner with the intro of the 321LR. (What that is will be anyones guess)
If JQ management have some sh!t sandwich they want to the crew to swallow with the rollout of this fleet, they will want an agreement quickly before it arrives. No good having an open EBA that could allow the troops to facilitate conditions that doesn't fit with the business model. Thus it will force Jq management to come up something quickly.

Other option (more likely) this will drag out as a protracted, 'greedy pilots,' 'we can't afford,' 'the QF wages policy,' 'headwinds on the horizon,' 'rising fuel costs,' 'Lionair are coming,' 'Air asia are coming,' 'unsustainable claims' and so on we've all heard before.

If you were only half listening to the crew, I would probably agree with you that "No one has said or discussed what they want to be the result of PIA they just want PIA' however if you have a listen to the rest of the story, it would reveal that most people just want the company to negotiate fairly and without the bulls!t QF policies that have been made up on the fly and are only there when convenient to disadvantage. If its ever a QF policy to our advantage, the answer is 'No, your low cost.'
The company negotiators are utter muppets that have no authority, bargaining ability or say in any future of the agreement. They are merely there is stalwarts who aren't actually allowed to make any decisions, hence the reaction that your getting from the crew.

So what happens after PIA and you don't like the agreement, do you then go through the laborious process of applying for PIA again?

In a word, probably.
I think most people are expecting to get locked out, as AJ has done before. If they aren't, they should be.
The QF dispute was put to bed after FWA conceded 'fears that an extended period of grounding would do significant damage to the national economy, especially with regards to the tourism and mining sectors.' I highly doubt the same could be said for JQ, but hey you never know.

Lookleft

21st Nov 2019, 05:22

however if you have a listen to the rest of the story, it would reveal that most people just want the company to negotiate fairly and without the bulls!t QF policies that have been made up on the fly and are only there when convenient to disadvantage. If its ever a QF policy to our advantage, the answer is 'No, your low cost.' The company negotiators are utter muppets that have no authority, bargaining ability or say in any future of the agreement. They are merely there is stalwarts who aren't actually allowed to make any decisions, hence the reaction that your getting from the crew.

I don't disagree with any of that statement and it has certainly been the case with all the JQ EBA's. It is unfortunately standard QF Group HR practise to send in the clowns then when actual decisions need to be made those with authority come in. Have a chat to the EBA cc about how their latest agreement was negotiated. In my view however it makes the current application for PIA even less effective than the usual ineffectiveness of PIA.

blow.n.gasket

21st Nov 2019, 21:24

Here’s an idea for your PIA , wear orange ties and orange armbands and make inane PA’s to the passengers .
It worked for mainline didn’t it ?

Lookleft

21st Nov 2019, 21:54

Here’s an idea for your PIA , wear orange ties and orange armbands and make inane PA’s to the passengers .
It worked for mainline didn’t it ?

Yep but if you look at the Fair Work Act Division 6—Suspension or termination of protected industrial action by the FWC then you can get a bit of an understanding why the PIA taken by pilots is very limited in scope. The economic harm that a CEO can inflict however is not covered. So the call for "strike action" is merely 70's rhetoric as it has effectively been made illegal and the FWC has the power to stop it.So my question still is, what industrial action do JQ pilots want to take that they think will be effective in getting management to change their mind about the log of claims?

Gear in transit

21st Nov 2019, 22:32

Let us vote on it first, then you can all throw rocks from the keyboard. It’ll be in the paper 38 seconds later anyway, just look for the title announcing a jq strike is imminent. :rolleyes:

Lookleft

21st Nov 2019, 23:08

just look for the title announcing a jq strike is imminent.

Mate they are already well ahead of you! Haven't you seen the media headlines that have shouted that Jetstar pilots are going on strike for Christmas.

Gear in transit

22nd Nov 2019, 00:08

Yes mate, it was a tongue in cheek reminder of Australian journalism at its finest, hence the eye roll.

2theline

22nd Nov 2019, 00:33

Yep but if you look at the Fair Work Act Division 6—Suspension or termination of protected industrial action by the FWC then you can get a bit of an understanding why the PIA taken by pilots is very limited in scope. The economic harm that a CEO can inflict however is not covered. So the call for "strike action" is merely 70's rhetoric as it has effectively been made illegal and the FWC has the power to stop it.So my question still is, what industrial action do JQ pilots want to take that they think will be effective in getting management to change their mind about the log of claims?

Don't think your scaremongering is going to work this time round Lookleft. As it has been pointed out already, its not about teaching JQ a lesson, its about not taking a massive step backwards in pay and conditions once again. Time will tell if PIA will work, it did for Tiger

Popgun

22nd Nov 2019, 04:37

my question still is, what industrial action do JQ pilots want to take that they think will be effective in getting management to change their mind about the log of claims?

I suggest you go and read the document:

https://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/awardsandorders/html/pr714350.htm

There are 15 potential actions available should they all receive a successful ’Yes’ vote.

Some are as innocuous as an orange tie...others a lot more attention grabbing.

I wish the JQ pilot group all the best in getting a deal that is fair and respectful after their many years of under-rewarded and over-utilised service spent building a successful and profitable business. As a JQ pilot said to me recently: “Its not just about money, or how hard we have to work. It’s about being treated as an equal member of the QF Group...not the poor step-child who is constantly given a raw deal compared to his other siblings.”

It will be an interesting December.

PG

ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE

23rd Nov 2019, 07:49

Clipster

23rd Nov 2019, 08:00

My question to fellow JQ pilots and AFAP members is this. Will these actions genuinely help our barging position or are we simply doing this as a ‘f@ck you’ to the company?

I’m worried that emotions are getting in the way of clear thinking and that we are sleepwalking into a conflict that has little chance of a positive outcome.

I think if you feel like it’s sleepwalking you misunderstand the sentiment. ( I know you’re a JQ Pilot. ) It’d be the first ever PIA conducted by the JQ pilot group. I think everyone is well and truly wide awake.

ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE

23rd Nov 2019, 08:33

What The

23rd Nov 2019, 22:03

What is the alternative?

You are facing an arrogant employer who thinks it is acceptable for a select few to steal hundreds of millions of dollars from the coffers whilst standing on the necks of the operational employees.

Judging by the sentiment being shown across all operational groups I think everyone has had enough.

I wish the Jetstar Pilots all the best with their PIA. When you are the lowest paid you have nothing to lose and any threat to use another employee group to undercut you is laughable.

The midgets are quickly getting out of their depth. Not that it would take long.

2theline

24th Nov 2019, 00:32

cLeArIcE

24th Nov 2019, 07:43

I understand the anger in the group. We took a 4.5% pay cut in the last EBA and since then management have lined their pockets.

But anger isn’t great for decision making and whilst it’s easy to get caught up with the hysteria it might worth taking a moment to pause and think about what we’re doing and whether it will actually help us or (as I fear) will the QF higher ups use us to make an example of what happens to work groups who step out of line?

I really do hope I’m wrong and I would in fact be grateful to anyone who can show me the wisdom behind why PIA will improve our final agreement.

Well what's the worst thing they can do?
Give JQ flying away (ha to who?)
Lock you out? Ground the airline?... So what? Who cares.
If people don't have a bit of spare cash to survive a lock out or grounding I'd suggest you might have bigger problems.

Stay strong and I wish you all the best in your endeavour for better pay and better respect.

Lookleft

25th Nov 2019, 05:20

Don't think your scaremongering is going to work this time round Lookleft. As it has been pointed out already, its not about teaching JQ a lesson, its about not taking a massive step backwards in pay and conditions once again. Time will tell if PIA will work, it did for Tiger
What scaremongering was I doing whatever the first time round was? Do you mean in the last EBA or the EBA before that or the EBA that was originally negotiated by the JPC before AIPA or AFAP represented JQ pilots? Ask the Tiger pilots who will be affected by the reduction in fleet numbers how their PIA worked for them.

My question to fellow JQ pilots and AFAP members is this. Will these actions genuinely help our barging position or are we simply doing this as a ‘f@ck you’ to the company? I’m worried that emotions are getting in the way of clear thinking and that we are sleepwalking into a conflict that has little chance of a positive outcome.

Unfortunately once the drums start beating then emotion is all that drives it. The year of the fall of the Berlin Wall is testament to that.

It’d be the first ever PIA conducted by the JQ pilot group. I think everyone is well and truly wide awake.

You are assuming that the ballot will be successful. Its not the first time PIA has been initiated but an agreement was struck before the process was completed. This is the fundamental flaw with the threat of PIA this time around. There is no agreement! The other flaw is that there is no coordinated approach with the other union. For the many posters who are not JQ pilots and roll out the well worn cliches of "stay strong and united" then understand that the AFAP PIA is more about the politics of dominance over AIPA as it is trying to get a negotiated outcome.

You are facing an arrogant employer who thinks it is acceptable for a select few to steal hundreds of millions of dollars from the coffers whilst standing on the necks of the operational employees.Judging by the sentiment being shown across all operational groups I think everyone has had enough.

I don't disagree with that but the airlines are no different to most other large corporations that thrive on exploiting the low wage environment that currently exists and has been pointed out by the Reserve Bank as being a drag on the economy. Everyone has had enough but the current industrial system has been developed to keep it that way. Whats the alternative? How radical do you want to get? The choice is to operate within the current framework which is what the AFAP are offering but don't expect any different outcome. If it makes people feel better and allow them to state " We showed them" then fine but lets be realistic and keep emotion out of it. Or go the HK students approach, but I doubt whether any pilot will be interested in going down that path. Your political freedom is not under threat, you are not facing deportation if you don't toe the party line and you can still quite easily put food on the table and keep a roof over your head. The main sentiment for PIA seems to be that its unfair that the CEO gets all that money and we don't.

Whats the alternative? Get an agreement that both unions put to their membership, vote on that, if not happy then as a unified pilot group go to the PIA process. Once that is completed (if it gets that far) vote on any revised agreement. If that is successful then everyone can take time out from all the angst for another 3 years.If the revised agreement gets voted down I suppose you try again with PIA but in my experience I have never seen it go to that stage as usually EBA fatigue sets in and people just want it finalized. Game,Set and Match corporate Australia.

Roj approved

25th Nov 2019, 07:37

Paddleboat

25th Nov 2019, 08:15

You are assuming that the ballot will be successful. Its not the first time PIA has been initiated but an agreement was struck before the process was completed. This is the fundamental flaw with the threat of PIA this time around. There is no agreement! The other flaw is that there is no coordinated approach with the other union. For the many posters who are not JQ pilots and roll out the well worn cliches of "stay strong and united" then understand that the AFAP PIA is more about the politics of dominance over AIPA as it is trying to get a negotiated outcome.
If you think the ballot won't be successful you either don't work for Jetstar or you're a SBM. Its going to get a resounding yes vote. I'd be surprised by anything less than 90% for all forms of PIA. People are pissed like never before.

As to the fragmented Pilot base, what % of pilots do AIPA even represent now? And I don't mean simply being a member, but bargaining representative. The default is AFAP for dual members. Sure a few have kept dual membership due to > 50 year old LOL clauses, but the AFAP has seen significant additional membership in the last 2 weeks, and a great many are AIPA members.

I think its fairly clear that a unified pilot body exists, and it has little to do with AIPA.

I don't disagree with that but the airlines are no different to most other large corporations that thrive on exploiting the low wage environment that currently exists and has been pointed out by the Reserve Bank as being a drag on the economy. Everyone has had enough but the current industrial system has been developed to keep it that way. Whats the alternative? How radical do you want to get? The choice is to operate within the current framework which is what the AFAP are offering but don't expect any different outcome. If it makes people feel better and allow them to state " We showed them" then fine but lets be realistic and keep emotion out of it. Or go the HK students approach, but I doubt whether any pilot will be interested in going down that path. Your political freedom is not under threat, you are not facing deportation if you don't toe the party line and you can still quite easily put food on the table and keep a roof over your head. The main sentiment for PIA seems to be that its unfair that the CEO gets all that money and we don't.
How wonderfully defeatist.

Tiger secured 14% with PIA, oil workers secured 20% with PIA.

edit : Cant post link to Australian article due to my post count. Google it.

I do not agree that we simply give up.

Given that JQ pilots are expected to operate the largest NB aircraft of any NB airline in the country, highest number of pax (by a mile), longest sectors, most sectors, least days off, most approach capability, most roster flexibility, for the least pay, what do you suggest we do? Say thankyou? The company has made its position crystal clear. 3% (for the workers of course, obviously management isn't subject to this imaginary wage policy that nobody has ever seen written anywhere). No flexibility, no discussion. The end. Oh and we want to you to start flying wide body passenger loads internationally for regional airline pay.

Thanks.

xoxox JQ management.

Whats the alternative? Get an agreement that both unions put to their membership, vote on that, if not happy then as a unified pilot group go to the PIA process. Once that is completed (if it gets that far) vote on any revised agreement. If that is successful then everyone can take time out from all the angst for another 3 years.If the revised agreement gets voted down I suppose you try again with PIA but in my experience I have never seen it go to that stage as usually EBA fatigue sets in and people just want it finalized. Game,Set and Match corporate Australia.
We have applied for PIA as a unified pilot body group. The % of pilots not represented by AFAP is now minimal.

CamelSquadron

25th Nov 2019, 10:43

CamelSquadron

25th Nov 2019, 10:54

Here is the flip side of your statement......
"You are facing an arrogant white collar employee group who thinks it is acceptable for a select few that earn hundreds of thousands of dollars per year to stand on the necks of their working class customers who have spent their hard earning savings on taking a Christmas holiday".

Why do you keep repeating the same mistakes?

Eaglet

25th Nov 2019, 11:18

Highly paid professional going on strike asking for more money. You have completely lost touch with reality and you will get no support from Joe Public who just see you as greedy and selfish. Your playing right into the hands of management.

Don't need the support of Joe public, they're not the ones voting on the EBA. They may get pi$$ed off at jq pilots, but they'll probably be just as mad at jetstar as a whole. Jq already cancels plenty of flights even without a strike, due to lack of crew!

Blueskymine

26th Nov 2019, 02:34

Just waiting for Trento and Stella to appear on the news. Stuck in Bali after their flight is cancelled. Hungover. No money. Bintang singlets and a fresh tattoo inked on the arm.

Can you imagine it.

theheadmaster

26th Nov 2019, 02:44

Don't need the support of Joe public, they're not the ones voting on the EBA. They may get pi$$ed off at jq pilots, but they'll probably be just as mad at jetstar as a whole. Jq already cancels plenty of flights even without a strike, due to lack of crew!

The bigger picture is that Joe public votes for the politician that sets policy, legislates and has specific powers under the Fair Work Act.

Lapon

26th Nov 2019, 04:43

Highly paid professional going on strike asking for more money. You have completely lost touch with reality and you will get no support from Joe Public who just see you as greedy and selfish. Your playing right into the hands of management.

The pilot group do not need to win the hearts and minds of Joe Public, the company does. That's the reason the company has a marketing department in the first place.
Any fury will be at Jetstar as 'they' have just advised Joe of a disruption to his flight. The pilot is just a brand less and nameless person in a white shirt.

Lookleft

26th Nov 2019, 05:00

But if Jetstar can spin the narrative to blame the greedy pilots then that fury will be directed at the pilots. The battle for hearts and minds is not an insignificant one.

Lapon

26th Nov 2019, 06:58

But if Jetstar can spin the narrative to blame the greedy pilots then that fury will be directed at the pilots. The battle for hearts and minds is not an insignificant one.

Ah but how exaclty would the pilots receive the public wrath? Jetstar (or any) pilots are as good as invisible to the public. Whether the public harbor any resentment towards the pilots will not directly affect what they get paid now or in the future. The pilots have little to fear in the way of 'brand damage' vs what the company does.

I was involved in pilot group industrial action years ago, the news that evening interviewed passengers caught up. Opinions varied, but the most common opinion was one of the big corporation bullying the worker at the coal face. Ultimately it didnt matter what the public thought as to effect to outcome of the EBA.

Further more, with 'the company' boasting record profits and executive remuneration in this climate, I suspect that any one sided claims of pilot greed would be akin to throwing stones in a glass house.

Ragnor

26th Nov 2019, 08:46

The pilots have little to fear in the way of 'brand damage' vs what the company does..

This I agree with 100%, the 3 morons in Melbourne head office think we the Pilot group will damage the brand. The business does this on its own, but after all it is a LCC!

2theline

26th Nov 2019, 14:48

But if Jetstar can spin the narrative to blame the greedy pilots then that fury will be directed at the pilots. The battle for hearts and minds is not an insignificant one.

You're really clutching at straws now mate.

SandyPalms

26th Nov 2019, 21:23

Every time the media mention pilot remuneration, the next line will be 24 million. That’s what joe public will remember.

patty50

26th Nov 2019, 21:38

Highly paid professional going on strike asking for more money. You have completely lost touch with reality and you will get no support from Joe Public who just see you as greedy and selfish. Your playing right into the hands of management.

I think you’ll find the opposite is true. Most Australians are getting hammered by our benevolent corporations in some shape and support fighting back. No one thinks Alan deserves $24m. I’ve heard people say ‘why should Jetstar get paid less than the others for flying the same planes’. You will also find the pilots have significant support within the group.

People are comfortable with pilots making a decent amount of money and not many view 200k as mega dollars at least in Sydney or Melbourne.

Oriana

27th Nov 2019, 00:31

I would expect that if JQ pilots were harassed or abused by passengers during any PIA, they will simply not fly their aircraft, and a new crew brought in.

Beer Baron

27th Nov 2019, 00:43

This is an Enterprise Agreement, not a popularity contest, not a political campaign; public sentiment is largely irrelevant.
It is between employer and employee. It will be a business decision that governs what happens next. If it costs JQ too much money they will modify their behaviour, public sentiment won’t come into their calculation.

Not to say you will definitely get the outcome you desire but ignore the noise, fight for what you deserve because if you don’t fight then you have already lost.

Good luck.

Clipster

27th Nov 2019, 01:15

waren9

27th Nov 2019, 02:25

could not agree more.

Vindiesel

27th Nov 2019, 02:37

If it costs JQ too much money they will modify their behaviour, public sentiment won’t come into their calculation.

If by 'it' you mean Jetstar pilot PIA, I think you'll find reality is a little more complicated than that.

virgindriver

27th Nov 2019, 05:29

I think sometimes you have to take some tougher action to get anywhere.

Wasn’t Mr Joyce praised for this a few years ago?

Its not like they are going to find anyone else to under cut you?

Good luck and I hope you guys succeed instead of being trodden on all the time.

Thommo_au

30th Nov 2019, 10:55

support fighting back.

I am a long tiime lurker and I registered just to post on this thread. If there is industrial action at Christmas people will blame the Jetstar pilots and hate them with a passion. For the direct personal consequences including financial loss and disruption. It is completely ridiculous to suggest otherwise. Because it is the pilots that have chosen the timing. I'd also say the company is already doing better media on this to ensure the pilots are blamed too.

Even those people not directly impacted will understand what people are going through and have sympathy. Pilots will be seen as greedy Christmas wreaking bastards.

The name is Porter

1st Dec 2019, 01:21

I am a long tiime lurker and I registered just to post on this thread. If there is industrial action at Christmas people will blame the Jetstar pilots and hate them with a passion. For the direct personal consequences including financial loss and disruption. It is completely ridiculous to suggest otherwise. Because it is the pilots that have chosen the timing. I'd also say the company is already doing better media on this to ensure the pilots are blamed too.

Even those people not directly impacted will understand what people are going through and have sympathy. Pilots will be seen as greedy Christmas wreaking bastards.

Long time lurker eh?? Doubt it, pretty transparent who you are.

Completely wrong, I too have been involved in PIA. There were no such consequences.

Paddleboat

1st Dec 2019, 02:16

I am a long tiime lurker and I registered just to post on this thread. If there is industrial action at Christmas people will blame the Jetstar pilots and hate them with a passion. For the direct personal consequences including financial loss and disruption. It is completely ridiculous to suggest otherwise. Because it is the pilots that have chosen the timing. I'd also say the company is already doing better media on this to ensure the pilots are blamed too.

Even those people not directly impacted will understand what people are going through and have sympathy. Pilots will be seen as greedy Christmas wreaking bastards.
Public opinion wont' decide the outcome of JQ's PIA. Further, on the line I've noticed quite vocal support from our pax. People are sick of executives making millions off the backs of their employees. The blowback will be nothing like you suggest.

PoppaJo

1st Dec 2019, 02:45

Thommo you sound like one of those Alan believers?

I can assure you any negative passenger vibes seen on the nightly news will be forgotten very fast. Impact to revenue will be almost zero.

Lowest fare wins in this demographic. They might be swearing and threatening to never fly this mob again, however on the next Bali or Cooly trip when they have a choice of a $39 Jetstar or $120 Virgin flight.....I wonder who wins.

The media need to ask Gareth if his pilots are the lowest paid Airbus drivers in part of the world. I’d love to see the reply. You wouldn’t get a straight answer out of any manager within the group.

Any quality and decent investigative journalist probably needs to look past the passenger fluffy drama and look into the corporate greed vs lowest paid front line workers within in its industry. Just look at Woolworths recently.

Jetstar also recently stated it has a target of a 21% profit margin in the medium term, which is nearly double the current margin. Adding into the mix it’s outrageous executive remuneration figures, claiming they can’t afford to get its pilots off the lowest paid ladder is beyond absurd.

Berealgetreal

1st Dec 2019, 03:05

when they have a choice of a $39 Jetstar or $120 Virgin flight.....I wonder who wins.

No need to wonder.

Blueskymine

1st Dec 2019, 03:32

Trento and Stella will be screaming, but when there’s holes in the Bintang singlet and the craving for that Indonesian Pilsner bites, if Jetstar is $10 cheaper. They’ll after pay it and max the credit card on the way up with in flight booze.

I hope JQ get the parity with the other drivers they deserve.

patty50

1st Dec 2019, 10:48

If there is industrial action at Christmas people will blame the Jetstar pilots and hate them with a passion.

Even those people not directly impacted will understand what people are going through and have sympathy. Pilots will be seen as greedy Christmas wreaking bastards.

I don’t think they will. You underestimate how much ordinary people hate corporate leaders. Joyce and henchmen have zero credibility in calling anyone overpaid.

The PIA involves plenty of things with no to minimal impact on passengers and there will still be a couple of 747s laying around if a real strike eventuates.

Lookleft

2nd Dec 2019, 00:38

The PIA involves plenty of things with no to minimal impact on passengers and there will still be a couple of 747s laying around if a real strike eventuates.

Under current laws one of those options is legal and the other is not.

LostontheLOC

2nd Dec 2019, 14:56

Under current laws one of those options is legal and the other is not.

What are you on about?

strobes_on

2nd Dec 2019, 19:11

I suspect he means that PIA is OK but a strike is not

LostontheLOC

3rd Dec 2019, 03:25

I suspect he means that PIA is OK but a strike is not
A "Strike" is just the old term for industrial action..

Lookleft

3rd Dec 2019, 22:16

A "Strike" is just the old term for industrial action..

No its not :Strike action, also called labor strike, labour strike, or simply strike, is a work stoppage, caused by the mass refusal of employees to work. (Wikipedia)

Which is why PIA is legal under very restrictive criteria and "going on strike" is illegal.

FOI

3rd Dec 2019, 23:08

No its not : (Wikipedia)

Which is why PIA is legal under very restrictive criteria and "going on strike" is illegal.

A stoppage of work be it stand-alone periods or consecutive 4 / 24 hour periods = the definition of a STRIKE and you don’t get paid for it.

“Protected” just means it’s ratified as an approved action by the FWC.

Lookleft

4th Dec 2019, 00:14

The original statement was that a strike was the old term for industrial action. It is not, a strike means the withdrawal of labour. The phrase "going on strike" was used when labour was withdrawn with little or no prior notice. I think a lot of younger people have never seen what going on strike actually looked like. Not a criticism but the fact that they haven't seen it is a result of the tightening of industrial laws since the Accord.

dragon man

4th Dec 2019, 05:37

Jetstar going the extra yard I believe to get any AIPA members on long term sick leave back to work. I wonder why?

Blueskymine

4th Dec 2019, 06:48

80 odd Aipa members aren’t going to do much.

LostontheLOC

4th Dec 2019, 07:04

No its not : (Wikipedia)

Which is why PIA is legal under very restrictive criteria and "going on strike" is illegal.

https://www.fwc.gov.au/industrial-action-benchbook/what-industrial-action

"Industrial action where there is a failure or refusal by employees to attend for work, or a failure or refusal to perform any work at all by employees who attend for work, is historically known as a strike."

Anyway - I have heard AIPA is still negotiating with Jetstar, how can they bring a solution with so few members?

dragon man

4th Dec 2019, 07:07

https://www.fwc.gov.au/industrial-action-benchbook/what-industrial-action

"Industrial action where there is a failure or refusal by employees to attend for work, or a failure or refusal to perform any work at all by employees who attend for work, is historically known as a strike."

Anyway - I have heard AIPA is still negotiating with Jetstar, how can they bring a solution with so few members?

They want to appear to be doing something, anything. Like a duck paddling madly against the tide and going no where.

Ollie Onion

4th Dec 2019, 07:35

Paddleboat

4th Dec 2019, 08:00

They don’t think they can reach a settlement based on AIPA members but the Company love a fractured pilot group so would like nothing better than AIPA members bending the ear of other pilots talking up what a great deal they have.
Interesting times no doubt. First time I believe that there has been a large shift towards single union membership in JQ's negotiations. AIPA numbers are inflated due to the many who have retained dual membership because of LOL complications. I don't see them having a role to play in future negotiations. What can the company offer them thats going to sway the rest of the pilot group? Free lanyards?

wheels_down

6th Dec 2019, 04:42

So it seems the ground crews will be causing the disruptions this month, the AFAP are not taking action until next month as they did with TT.

LostontheLOC

6th Dec 2019, 06:03

Looks like the first actions are happening on the 14th this month, continuing for the week after that.

Wasi Wasamadroota

6th Dec 2019, 06:40

4 hour wearing of RED TIES. That will show them!!!!!!!!!!!

errrrrrrr no

This afternoon, the AFAP provided notice to the Company that PIA will commence on Saturday 14 December in the form of the following bans/actions:

1. A four (4) hour stoppage of all work from:

0459 - 0859 local time on Saturday 14th and Sunday 15 December for Narrow Body pilots.
1430 – 1830 local time on Saturday 14th December for Wide Body pilots.
0930 – 1330 local time on Sunday 15th December for Wide Body pilots.

2. A ban on working on any of the following days:

designated days off;
duty free days;
annual leave days; and
long service leave days.

3. A ban on answering phone calls from Jetstar crewing except whilst on standby or during a reassignable contactable period as stipulated in clause 15.1.4 and 15.2.7 of the Roster Protocol.

4. A ban on the performance of any duty that is not on a pilot’s originally published roster, excluding rostered standby.

5. A ban on extending a single or multi-day tour of duty beyond the times stipulated in clause 15 of the Roster Protocol.

These bans (except for the 4-hour stoppages) will initially run until 2359 on 20 December 2019.

Ngineer

6th Dec 2019, 09:00

So it seems the ground crews will be causing the disruptions this month, the AFAP are not taking action until next month as they did with TT.

Should be interesting to watch. My guess (from prev experience) is the standard lockout of employees and replacement with strike-breakers.

Ollie Onion

6th Dec 2019, 09:14

Good luck everyone, I am watching with interest.

The name is Porter

6th Dec 2019, 09:33

Good Lord, if they're going to trot the moron out that was on the news tonight to dis-credit you, you've got it won.

Rated De

6th Dec 2019, 09:50

4 hour wearing of RED TIES. That will show them!!!!!!!!!!!

errrrrrrr no

What manufactured crisis can Fort Fumble generate?

First class travel, kamikaze and massages...
With zero wage growth and an explosion of personal debt, people broadly are tapped out.
Robber barons like Alan Joyce's $24 million is not a good optic.

Angle of Attack

6th Dec 2019, 10:08

This is perfect Jetstar, Shorthaul both EBA’s rejected and LH in a **** spin, this is where we want it, PIA about to happen in Jetstar, I’d suggest agree to nothing and keep these bastards in the lurch, United we win. Hopefully some PIA from shorthaul to reduce their options. If we all stand together we will slaughter them, it’s basic maths, not masters ��

Paddleboat

6th Dec 2019, 11:05

Good Lord, if they're going to trot the moron out that was on the news tonight to dis-credit you, you've got it won.
For all their bravado, they've got some interesting strategies. They have repeatedly said they have no concerns for the ground staff strike, as they have 'strong contingencies in place'. Turn out, that 'strong contingency' is to take a bunch of latte sipping twits from head office, give them a days training and then let them loose, all at the same time, on the heavy ground equipment to load the aircraft.

I wonder if JQ can set a dual world record for the number of 320's sat on their tail / ULD Loaders driven into wings.

I hope someone manages to get video of the Kalmar driving down the M5 never to be seen again.

ALAEA Fed Sec

6th Dec 2019, 20:18

Just wanting to offer some assistance to you guys but I don't really know any of the AFAP officials. 12 months ago the Jetstar LAMEs voted in favour of PIA. Ultimately they didn't take action as we settled before then but an interesting thing occurred that I am more than happy to share.

Some clutz of a manager was rushing for a flight and left a folder in an Engineering section. Within the folder were all his notes from every EA meeting, legal advice on how to handle PIA at Jetstar and other associated internal info. Although the docs were predominantly Engineering related, it may give some insight into the company and the way they will tackle PIA.

If someone from AFAP emails me at [email protected] I would be more than happy to forward every piece of info.

cheers and good luck

ernestkgann

6th Dec 2019, 20:25

The AFAP talking heads need to get onto their media strategy and breakdown this $300k figure the shiny bums are promoting.

Gear in transit

6th Dec 2019, 20:55

I don’t think it really matters anymore. The company is flashing this 300k figure like it’s a bombshell going to knock out any wage claim we may have. In reality, we’re the lowest paid of any pilot group for comparable work and the Afap can prove that.
Add to that the QF exec remuneration and it’s a stupid tactic that really just magnifies managements ridiculous salaries and IR ‘techniques.’

Eaxh and every time there has been an issue with pilot vs company (Insert any of the companies here) the wage card is the first one played. If the general public doesn’t know roughly what a pilot gets paid by now, it’s because they don’t give a sh!t.

Lapon

6th Dec 2019, 21:16

The company is flashing this 300k figure like it’s a bombshell

If the figure was 100k I'm sure there would still be plenty of the public crying unfair.
Perhaps an offer to the company to take a wage freeze whereby every pilot stays in 300k for twelve months should be made in a well publicized media event.

As has been correctly pointed out anyway, public opinion does not not affect the EBA terms and outcome.

Paddleboat

6th Dec 2019, 21:47

If the figure was 100k I'm sure there would still be plenty of the public crying unfair.
Perhaps an offer to the company to take a wage freeze whereby every pilot stays in 300k for twelve months should be made in a well publicized media event.

As has been correctly pointed out anyway, public opinion does not not affect the EBA terms and outcome.
I think an AFAP representative needs to get on TV with Salter/Evens and challenge them on the spot to offer us the 305k for 75 hours a month they've been running around telling every reporter who will listen that it's what we actually get.

That I'd pay to see.

ExtraShot

6th Dec 2019, 21:52

From the SMH;

”We call on the union to put a fair and reasonable agreement on the table that ensures the future of low fares for all Australians” Gareth Evans, JQ CEO.

Its purely up to you Pilots or else we’re gonna have to charge the Bogans more...

How much does Mr Evans get paid again?. Mr $24 million might have to take a cut if it’s that critical? Jetstar is an Amaaaaaaazing business isn’t it? Plenty of profits to share around or is that not true now?

Good luck all, you get what you fight for.

wheels_down

6th Dec 2019, 22:02

FY19 Gareth Evans 3,979,000

Jetstar is a business of not even $4b. When comparing to other customer facing $4b business such as Kmart, Target, BIGW, Officeworks, these executives earn less than half, even a third of what Gareth does.

Ground Crews earn a hundred grand?
Jetstar has hit back, saying pilots already earn around $300,000 a year and some ground staff get over $100,000. Michael Kaine, the National Secretary of the Transport Workers Union joins us at Sydney Airport.

Sunfish

6th Dec 2019, 22:42

Have they asked you to “be professional” yet?

patty50

6th Dec 2019, 23:10

Ground Crews earn a hundred grand?

Just checked the JQ EBA. A year 4 supervisor has a base of $1089 a week plus average loadings of say 30%. To get to 100k they must be doing plenty of overtime. Reality? Part timers with base wage of $22 probably earning 60-70k.

Rated De

7th Dec 2019, 04:59

Have they asked you to “be professional” yet?

Precisely.

They already pulled out the Ryanair trick of the "impact your action will have on our customers"
Same playbook.

Mr Evans has to cycle through the stages yet: Anger, denial, bargaining and then capitulation.

rammel

8th Dec 2019, 01:54

In regards to ground crew earning $100k, if that's the case, that's a management issue of not having enough staff to cover the operation. Likewise if there is a group of pilot's earning $300k because of overtime (I don't know what they actually earn) that's a management issue. So if salaries are high because of overtime, the union should try to highlight it as an issue of bad management.

I'm outside of aviation now, but where I work there was a number of staff who weren't replaced but covered on overtime. It might be cheaper to start with than hiring a new employee, but now it's gone on for so long that it must be a cost. People are getting burnt out and while they may do overtime, they are taking sick days on their shifts, so there is even more overtime. If the staffing level was correct then there would be minmal overtime, as it would only be required to cover ad-hoc absences. Because of this I'm likely to earn an additional $18k-20k this year because of overtime and I don't do a lot of it.

dragon man

9th Dec 2019, 04:12

Rated De

9th Dec 2019, 05:16

I’m told the effects are already been felt with all international services to be cancelled this weekend and 1000 services in January to be cancelled due to the effect on forward bookings. Only time will tell if it’s correct or not.

Will Little Napoleon call the pilots kamikaze and promptly claim Jetstar in "terminal decline"?

wheels_down

9th Dec 2019, 07:50

I’m told the effects are already been felt with all international services to be cancelled this weekend and 1000 services in January to be cancelled due to the effect on forward bookings. Only time will tell if it’s correct or not.
Many 78 services this weekend not operating but some still are. Larger cancellations over domestic due aircraft/crew repositioning issues.

I hazard a guess that so called ‘forward bookings’ route cancellations will be poor performing routes taking advantage of the situation. Think Avalon and low season QLD runs.

LeeJoyce

9th Dec 2019, 11:26

Friday the 13th...

Propstop

9th Dec 2019, 23:17

I am aware companies will no longer book personnel on JQ. Have seen the memo put out one organisation.

Scooter Rassmussin

10th Dec 2019, 04:01

Looks like Tiger will now be able to expand .

What The

10th Dec 2019, 04:07

If you are worried about what the public think I overheard two people talking today who are not in the industry.
The closing statement to their discussion was “well if only the company would listen to their employees this wouldn’t be happening”.

Bravo

Ollie Onion

10th Dec 2019, 04:53

I assume the Lockout will not be far away.

LeeJoyce

10th Dec 2019, 05:27

I don’t think that’ll work again

Jetstar isn’t an essential service like Qantas claimed to be

the Trams have had many strikes recently in Victoria and are an essential service, and they continue to strike

dragon man

10th Dec 2019, 08:14

https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/jetstar-considers-january-flight-cancellations-to-deal-with-pilot-strike-20191210-p53ig2.html

wheels_down

10th Dec 2019, 09:01

They have ceased taking bookings for all services between Friday to Monday.

Details tomorrow on how they are going to navigate through this with the added addition of the Friday ground crew strikes.

TWU have announced its bans for this Friday across most major airports, stopping for 4 hour periods.

maggot

10th Dec 2019, 23:52

Getting close now, all the best ladies and gentlemen i can imagine it's stressful as hell, keep your head up whatever happens

wheels_down

11th Dec 2019, 01:15

However the union says it has only asked for a 3 per cent wage rise, with the 15 per cent figures based on a exaggerated costing of non-salary claims.
Can anyone elaborate on this quote?

Paddleboat

11th Dec 2019, 11:04

LostontheLOC

11th Dec 2019, 11:33

Beer Baron

11th Dec 2019, 11:53

Surely it’s because by law if you were not part of the vote then any action you took would be “unprotected”. If that were the case Jetstar could sack you. So AIPA are assisting their members in not getting fired. Isn’t that the basic job of a union??

Whether AIPA should also poll for PIA is a separate and valid debate but explaining the law to your members so they don’t jeopardise their careers seems like a sensible move.

DirectAnywhere

11th Dec 2019, 12:02

I can't imagine anyone will want to be apart of AIPA anymore, it seems like they have sold out. maybe a bit of "if you scratch my back, I will scratch yours" coming up to the next couple of EA's being brought to the table?

I don’t have a dog in this race. I’d suggest AIPA legal has certain advice from their lawyers. AFAP has certain advice from theirs.

Legal ‘opinion’ is just that and it isn’t worth a pinch of s$&t if it goes to court. The court will decide. Is there precedent to support either side’s position?

Do you want to be the test case in court that proves AIPA’s advice was correct? The fines if you’re wrong are significant. $12.6k personally per instance if I recall. You could be up for 25k for this weekend if you’re not protected.

Both sets of lawyers seem to agree if you were an AFAP member at the time of the ballot you’re protected. I assume the vast bulk of Jetstar pilots were AFAP members at the time of the ballot. If you’ve joined since is it worth the risk? Will your colleagues have sufficient numbers to get your point across? Just something to consider. Talk to your union and make sure their position is crystal clear and they will cover you against legal action and fines if it so transpires.

All the best for your PIA on the weekend and I hope management gets your message loud and clear. It’s time and I know the overwhelming majority of QF pilots hope for a good outcome for you.

LostontheLOC

11th Dec 2019, 12:52

They are all fair points, and sitting here on the outside looking at the workings of industrial action that just won't shape the group, but the entire industry moving forward for everyone, I think it's definitely something taking an interest in and supporting if that way inclined.

Would I potentially be the test dummy for a "up to" 12.6k fine? Hard to say, but I don't agree with AIPA's advice which is questionable v the FWC site, but I am sure their interpretation will be justified somehow. The advice does not add up and raises more questions than gives answers.

StudentInDebt

11th Dec 2019, 14:30

So has Joyce gotten to AIPA? Received an email stating that AIPA has advised anyone who joined AFAP on or after Nov 18 (when the ballot was made) will not be protected during PIA. Why are they now acting against the interests of the JQ pilot group? Is the purpose to drive a wedge between what is for the first time, an effectively unified pilot body??
To answer these (rhetorical) questions you’d probably need to get in touch with the AIPA Jetstar reps who’ve resigned their positions and joined the AFAP. Allegedly, they did so in order to be a part of the forthcoming PIA having been effectively prevented from conducting their own ballot by the AIPA hierarchy (for entirely rational reasons if your membership is overwhelmingly comprised of QF LH and SH pilots).

maggot

11th Dec 2019, 19:18

To answer these (rhetorical) questions you’d probably need to get in touch with the AIPA Jetstar reps who’ve resigned their positions and joined the AFAP. Allegedly, they did so in order to be a part of the forthcoming PIA having been effectively prevented from conducting their own ballot by the AIPA hierarchy (for entirely rational reasons if your membership is overwhelmingly comprised of QF LH and SH pilots).

What rational reasons would have the qf body not support PIA, other than some perceived strategic plan for the aipa com (heh).

However, I would heed the aipa advice and ensure you are actually protected before taking any action - they will be vengeful if not.

Good luck folks

V-Jet

11th Dec 2019, 20:02

I’d like to assure anyone with any angst against AIPA that (legalities aside) all Qf pilots (not just AIPA) would be wishing JQ guys & gals nothing but the very best. Complaints against AIPA have never been that it lacks empathy for the plight of any pilot, or indeed person who has an issue with Qf Group management. Particularly the newly elected members of COM would be doing everything they can to legally assist the plight of JQ drivers. If something appears strange, there will be a very good reason and be very confident it would have nothing to do with selling anyone down the river. I have the highest respect for all the new COM members I know and have known for years - if push came to shove I can’t imagine them not putting the interests of others before their own.

As everyone has said - best of luck, the thoughts of many are with you.

goodonyamate

11th Dec 2019, 20:23

Ditto. 10 years ago there was a lot of anger from both pilot groups, unfortunately directed at each other (guilty as charged) when the real target should have been QF management.

wish you nothing but the best of luck, I can only hope AIPA isn’t far away from following the same path for SH pilots. Shame it’s not at the same time.

all the best.

ANCDU

11th Dec 2019, 20:29

I’ve got to agree with Vjet, there is huge support for Jetstar Pilots, remember in 2011 we were going through the same thing and it wasn’t a pleasant time.

Qantas pilots gain nothing by Jetstar Pilots not getting any improvements in terms and conditions, the better Jetstar do the easier it is for Mainline Pilots to get an improvement or even just retain conditions. I’m no fan of AIPA, but I think the idea of them trying to derail any action by Jetstar Pilots for the benefit of Joyce and co to be laughable. There is no love for his management style I can assure you.

The FWA website is notoriously short on detail regarding PIA, you have to delve into the act to get the details, and to be honest as a pilot I wouldn’t be trusting a website over advice from lawyers from a union. I’m not saying either union is correct, but if it was me I’d want to see some kind of proof from both unions before I put my career on the line.

Best of luck with the week, and remember, by turning this into a union vs union battle, instead of an employee vs company battle, you are playing right into managements hands.

Fatguyinalittlecoat

11th Dec 2019, 22:18

2theline

11th Dec 2019, 22:35

What AIPA fail to realise is that these tactics designed to destabilise the AFAP's agenda has actually had the opposite effect. What little AIPA membership that existed at JQ have moved to AFAP due to the stance that has been taken throughout this whole process. Been a long time coming, but the majority of JQ pilots have now finally seen the light. They have AIPA to thank for that

V-Jet

11th Dec 2019, 23:32

Are you blokes really that thick? AIPA sends an email to its Jetstar members, warning them against doing something stupid, that could cost them not only money but their job, and you move to criticise them on this forum. If this is the intelligence of Jetstar pilots on display here, you guys are doomed. Good luck with it all.

Whilst likely true, that's a little harshly put. How about we say AIPA acted in good faith and whilst no doubt some people would see the worst in their actions it would have been sent with the very best of intentions.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Stressful time, careful thought needed.

StudentInDebt

12th Dec 2019, 00:02

Apologies, it seems I’ve poured petrol on the flames of division rather than water.

I’m sure the AIPA advice to members is well intentioned. I’m also sure that the decision not to go down the PIA route has been made in the interests of its’ wider membership, sometimes it’s better to keep your powder dry.

SandyPalms

12th Dec 2019, 00:11

Re the AFAP email being shared around. Who else finds it a but rich of the AFAP to be claiming that this action by the JQ pilots will be to the benefit of AIPA members (read QF pilots) after all the damage they did over the art 15 years. As though we should be thankful they are standing up for us. Rewriting history perhaps.

I wish JQ pilots the best of luck, but seriously, that is laughable.

Ollie Onion

12th Dec 2019, 00:18

I don’t share the belief that AIPA and AFAP are best of friends and just looking out for each other. I am not a member of either but was flying with an AIPA member recently who spent most of the flight telling me how he hoped that AFAP would get taken to the cleaners for their ‘rediculous’ demands. He is shortly to join Qantas mainline and said that his mates in Qantas were openly seeing this as an opportunity to get some 787 flying back to Mainline and AIPA was keen on offering to pick up the Jetstar 787 flying when they priced themselves out of the low cost market. Now I am not saying this kind of attitude is prevelent in the majority but the whole ‘we are all friends and supportive’ is a bit of a stretch. I pointed out to this young guy that this sort of attitude is exactly the kind of bull**** the managers want to cultivate and the fractured pilot group is detrimental to everyone, it was a quiet flight home.

Ragnor

12th Dec 2019, 00:54

If JQ price themself out of the market, I find it hard that QF will pick it up. Just look at the customer base, they will be priced out by QF due to affordability and therefore it’s gone.

hotnhigh

12th Dec 2019, 00:54

his mates in Qantas were openly seeing this as an opportunity to get some 787 flying back to Mainline and AIPA was keen on offering to pick up the Jetstar 787 flying when they priced themselves out of the low cost market.

Absolute horse sh#t

ruprecht

12th Dec 2019, 00:59

Absolute horse sh#t

Agreed.

As a QF pilot and a member of AIPA, I wish the Jetstar pilots all the best in their dispute with management.

Ollie Onion

12th Dec 2019, 01:03

Just telling you what he told me.

ANCDU

12th Dec 2019, 01:21

He’s not even in mainline yet Ollie, and he’s going to get a bit of a rude shock when he gets here with that kind of attitude. Either he is full of crap or his mates are, there’s nothing but support here for what the Jetstar pilots are going through. Don’t forget most of us went through PIA and got locked out, it’s not a good feeling. To think Mainline Pilots would use this to their advantage is rubbish.

Blueskymine

12th Dec 2019, 02:07

I can only say I fully support the betterment of all pilots terms and conditions in Australia.

While we bicker and fight over the crumbs, the executive class took the whole pie.

In a leaked memo from Citibank to the 1%ers, it was mentioned the biggest threat to the plutocracy is we have 99% of the votes in our western democracies. Their biggest fear is may rise up against them.

I can tell you, the middle class has had enough.

ConfigFull

12th Dec 2019, 03:00

How do those going on PIA think Joyce is going to respond? What do you hope to gain by engaging in this type of PIA? What in Joyce’s actions or inactions makes you think he will respond differently in 2019 than how he did in 2011 or at any other stage over the last decade?

Jetstar colleagues, best of luck with what you're doing. We can only hope we'll be right behind you if the AIPA exec ever figure out what PIA is. Don't listen to the threats, the only recourse in the FWA is a lockout and it's just a formality (if it ever gets to that). Enjoy the day/days off at home and know that you can stay at home a lot longer than JQ can keep cancelling flights.

gordonfvckingramsay

12th Dec 2019, 03:34

PPRuNeUser0131

12th Dec 2019, 05:14

Afternoon those concerned with the dispute.
Today's Brisbane paper carried a story with mention of the pay dispute using the words "pilots walk off the job ... delays, disruptions" and its all the pilots fault.
The quote from the company CEO was "it is cynically timed to hurt the travelling public .... we (Jstar) are proactively contacting customers ... " and then reference was made to the pay increase of 15% in the first year.
And the final part (to show the greed of the pilots), and, I am paraphrasing, "they already get $300,000 a year".
I would suggest that it is time to put your own circumstances out there rather than let Jstar blame you for the problems.
I hope the Union has access to journalists as does Jstar. It might be worth the effort to have the public on your side.

gordonfvckingramsay

12th Dec 2019, 05:35

Pilots ‘folding’ is not the only other option available when held up against the scheduled stop work.

Prior to under taking PIA should one not ask ‘what do we hope to gain and how will this specific PIA achieve it’? The next step is to ask ‘how is my adversary likely to respond and what are the ramifications of that’. If those questions can’t be answered then how well advised is the PIA?

So, two non answers, genuine questions characterised as a threat, and the opposite to these PIA stop works being to ‘fold’. I hope that someone comes up with something better than that!

I hope the JQ pilots are clear about the pros and cons of the actions you’ve chosen. I hope you achieve what you set out to achieve. Good luck.

Anyone who has been around for a few of these know very well what the company will respond with and that is a firm NO to pilot terms, this is he only way Jetstar can “negotiate”. If that we’re not the case, they would be entertaining the notion that they should come with a realistic offer instead of running to the press to denigrate their pilots.

PIA is the only language they speak! Bring it on!

CurtainTwitcher

12th Dec 2019, 05:46

I would suggest that it is time to put your own circumstances out there rather than let Jstar blame you for the problems.
I hope the Union has access to journalists as does Jstar. It might be worth the effort to have the public on your side.

Unions generally don't have mult-million dollar advertising accounts with media companies, exclusive lounges to luxuriate in prior to departure, nor erroneous "bonus" frequent flyer points for the bosses and underlings. They donate an iPad and a chairman's lounge membership for every member of Federal Parliament. In fact, a unions may well be breaking the law spending their members money in such a cavalier & corrupt manner. Corruption on a commercial basis however, is completely legit, swindling unions members funds to gain influence is a serious issue that would be worth of a multi-part broadsheet investigation and the corruption watchdogs!

The media is a commercial business, press release regurgitators (formally referred to as journalists) are corrupted to the core by payment "in-kind" by the big end of town.

No media would ever print the pilots side of the argument with a shred of sympathy.

So, no the "truth" won't be televised.

Derfred

12th Dec 2019, 06:35

Here’s what worries me about the AFAP response to AIPA’s warning (and I have no horse in this race, I’m just concerned that someone might get hurt):

The AFAP did not state that they had “strong legal advice”, they merely said that other unions in the past had advised their members that it was OK to engage in PIA even if they joined after the vote.

I’m sorry, but that is not a strong legal precedent, IMHO, and if that is the best they are going to put in writing then I suspect that someone might be carefully trying to cover their arse. Ask yourself what they didn’t say.

Now, the AFAP have lawyers, and AIPA have lawyers: they obviously disagree with each other on this topic, or at least are demonstrating differing legal risk thresholds. Qantas have lawyers too, and you can bet what they will be seeking if any of you take unprotected industrial action. Qantas goes into “battle mode” when PIA starts, and may start behaving differently to what you have been accustomed. Remember also, you will be lumped into the same bucket as the TWU.

AIPA would not have provided this advice if they did not consider there to be a legal risk. It would not be anything else. It most certainly would not be a Union V Union stunt.

Please tread warily my friends if you joined AFAP after the vote. Just because “other unions” dealing with “other companies” may have gotten away with it in the past, doesn’t mean you can’t or won’t be fined or sacked for taking unprotected industrial action.

If AJ can make an example of even one of you, it has the potential to destroy morale, and/or divert attention from the core issue. I wouldn’t advise it, it just isn’t worth it. There is already an overwhelming number of protected AFAP members.

It would be a pity if the AFAP’s resources, and the will of the members, were to be diverted to attempting to reinstate the employment of one or a few individuals instead of the keeping the attention on the EBA.

Fight the fight carefully and hope your opponent makes an error. Don’t be the one to make the dumb error, especially after you have been warned.

Remember: “my union told me it’s ok” is not a defence.

To the rest of you: good luck folks, I’m with you in spirit! (And this post is not legal advice).

neville_nobody

12th Dec 2019, 07:11

Pilots ‘folding’ is not the only other option available when held up against the scheduled stop work.

Prior to under taking PIA should one not ask ‘what do we hope to gain and how will this specific PIA achieve it’? The next step is to ask ‘how is my adversary likely to respond and what are the ramifications of that’. If those questions can’t be answered then how well advised is the PIA?

So, two non answers, genuine questions characterised as a threat, and the opposite to these PIA stop works being to ‘fold’. I hope that someone comes up with something better than that!

So what are the other options? Wearing orange ties and making protest PAs has proven to be a waste of time. You can't refuse to work overtime. You can't 'sick out'. The reality is that management are probably not serious about making a deal so the only options are to either take strike action, resign or just carry on with status quo. Even mass resignations has proven to be useless as the government will kindly bring in the military to help out. So I am not sure what other options you have.