Jetstar EBA 2019

[Telfer86]

Post two above you are talking about the "stand down" clause in all of the pilot agreements , contracts , arrangements etc

They don't even need to talk about redundancy at this point in time (& all the potential cost & complication there ie: fleet or DOJ etc) , just activate the stand down for however long they see fit

[Led Zeppelin]

Stand downs will have to occur with the Qantas Group if the reports of an 80% reduction in flying are true. This will also affect most of JQ's international operation.

I would imagine this would mean leave with pay until all accrued leave is exhausted, then leave without pay until a return to a more normal flying schedule. This could be a nightmare with simulator and aircraft currency issues as operations are ramped up again. I would not envisage any upside action for at least 2 - 3 months (China seems to be emerging on the other side of COVID19 and that is almost 3 months from the first reports).

Not a happy time.

[Ollie Onion]

We be f#$ked, is my assessment. There will not be a return to any sort of normality within 6 months and then it will take months if not years for the airline industry to recover back to its former size. An economist on the radio this morning said the airline and tourism industry was like an oven, once it cools you can’t just have instant heat back, even if the demand is there it takes time to be able to cook again.

[Orange future]

"There will not be a return to any sort of normality within 6 months and then it will take months if not years for the airline industry to recover back to its former size."

This black swan is the event that will see a drastic decrease in the debt bubble lifestyle we have been used to.

The industry will return at some point, but it will be a fraction of its former self for a very long time.

[Flava Saver]

Well Well Well.. AFAP. Surely you jest.

[das Uber Soldat]

Well Well Well.. AFAP. Surely you jest.
Would have saved everyone time if they just sent an email saying "vote no".

[cLeArIcE]

Surely that's a joke yes?
Am I missing something.. no lower EFA threshold?
Qantas duty travel in business confirmed?
rostering practices and open time system?
Plus many many other thing's that show crew are actually respected for their role within the group.
Those pay amount should be for some one doing 60 hours not 75.
That proposal must be one of the most embarrassing and underwhelming agreements I've ever seen. Who cares about back pay in 2021 when half the crew hardly worked anyway.

[SHVC]

It’s a petty ordinary offer over all and AFAP are endorsing it before nutting out the company demands of increased flexibility. QF club, what is up with that also surely no one would care about that.

[ManillaChillaDilla]

Its a BIG NO from the majority already.

This deal is simply rubbish and shouldn't even be put to the already weary and very angry pilot group.

Start again AFAP. you should be ashamed of yourselves.

This is going to be ULTRA messy.

MCD

[PoppaJo]

I will retire before this gets over the line at this rate. Morons.

[Red69]

What is the point of paying union fees these days? This is a straight up insult. Look at what VA, Tiger and QF were earning pre covid - approx 160k for an FO and 240k for a CPT base! Since then inflation has gone through the roof. How on earth does the union think this is a good deal?? I hope the pilot body sees how insulting an offer this is and votes no. Go PIA and fight for a FAIR deal.

[Hawaiian.party]

I really hope this leads to PIA. Removal of conditions, an insulting 2% which is actually a pay cut considering inflation and no real recognition of JQ as an equal member of the group. Embarrassing.

[Ollie Onion]

So what have they offered?

[SHVC]

Not much, but, taking a lot. I still can’t believe AFAP thought back pay from July 2021 on earnings is reasonable! We were all stood down on JK.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Who will the flying be gifted to if there is a NO vote?

[xaos03]

What things are they wanting to take away?

[WillieTheWimp]

AJ & Co’s public perception would have to be at the most unfavourable level since their inception. Why would JQ pilots waste this opportunity to vote in favour of a substandard agreement? The last thing the QF group needs is more chaos. What are they going to do, shut JQ down? I don’t see it happening. They are already struggling with the ground handlers saga that won’t go away. Someone in the group must stand up to these IR bullies for once. I would say that the JQ pilots have the most power out of all the pilot silos, and if this gets voted in, then there is no one else to blame for rubbish conditions in Australia.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

AJ & Co’s public perception would have to be at the most unfavourable level since their inception. Why would JQ pilots waste this opportunity to vote in favour of a substandard agreement? The last thing the QF group needs is more chaos. What are they going to do, shut JQ down? I don’t see it happening. They are already struggling with the ground handlers saga that won’t go away. Someone in the group must stand up to these IR bullies for once. I would say that the JQ pilots have the most power out of all the pilot silos, and if this gets voted in, then there is no one else to blame for rubbish conditions in Australia.

Perhaps a warning for QF here is the exodus from NJS. The ease with which a (massively) better job can be obtained nowadays has created such a problem for NJS that sectors are going uncrewed. Guys on days off are usually on min days off in between 6 day weeks….no call outs available to fill the gaps, and many just couldn’t be bothered helping anyway.

The game for IR thugs is up, this deal is BS and the vote should reflect it.

[A320 Flyer]

Anyone car to provide the highlights of the offer???

[SilverSleuth]

So haven’t the AFAP reached an in principle agreement for this latest offer? Surely that means it’s a great deal. I mean they couldn’t be advocating a 25% pay cut and an agreement of work rule changes that make lifestyle/work balance less attractive (without any clauses that guarantee company obligations before those cuts happen) 😁

[gordonfvckingramsay]

This is why we fail! they are there to get the best possible deal not tell us what the best deal is! The AFAP are fapping something that’s for sure!

[Colonel_Klink]

So what are the actual details of the deal versus what the pilots expect?

[A320 Flyer]

So what are the actual details of the deal versus what the pilots expect?

no one seems to know….. other than it’s a dud

[ManillaChillaDilla]

Its not even wortrh discussing.

The " In principal " agreement is simply offensive and provides the pilot group with only one alternative.

For good reason, the company is worried about approaching christmas without a deal signed off.

It doesn't get any ugglier than this from an industrial sense. This cobbled together disgrace of a document should be an eye opener to all that make a living flying in this country.


MCD

[LostontheLOC]

Completely agreed.

It's concerning when the internal poll shows a 83 no /17 yes split for voting.. not sure who the 17% are but I don't think they have the best intentions at heart.

[RealSatoshi]

The " In principal " agreement is simply offensive and provides the pilot group with only one alternative.
Is it True that the phrase "If you wanted Mainline conditions, you should've joined Mainline..." has been thrown around?

[cLeArIcE]

If anybody (still) had any doubt how much Jetstar value their staff this offer confirms it. JQ know how disengaged the pilot group is and they still can't offer something even remotely fair. It's just not in their DNA to care. Can't even offer decent duty and staff travel in line with the rest of the group. That hardly costs a cent.
I'm just shocked the AFAP could endorse a deal like this. What planet are you all living on. It isn't a bad deal, it's downright disrespectful.

[cloudsurfng]

Without knowing the specifics, if you’re hung up on duty travel, let it go. You’ll never get confirmed J. Same with staff travel, you’ll never get the same categories and onload as mainline. That’s not to say you shouldn’t, but they won’t budge on that. They’ve never negotiated staff travel, ever. It’s not worth a pinch of **** anyway. With duty travel, it’s not uncommon to see 6 crew in J paxing. QF hate it as it’s a high yield seat unavailable for sale. They will never agree to giving you confirmed J.

Try and get something else instead, like extra days off or something.

[ManillaChillaDilla]

What is needed is is a fair deal for those that work hard.


Just looking at the current maintenance debacle, without the professionalism of ALL pilots, this place would have collapsed months ago. Thats the simple truth.

For too long, BOTH unions have treated the JQ pilots group as an IR " Practice match ". The current poor state of affairs illustrates this dramatically.


The ball is firmly back in the AFAPs court and those " representing the company ". Both entities have utterly miss read the pilot group sentiment. Pretend that its not happening at your peril.


Produce something equitable that recognises the efforts of JQ Pilots who are held to the exact same standards as Mainline pilots, who work harder with much less support and are paid SIGNIFICANTLY less. Not to mention the financial contribution the company makes to the Qantas group overall.


If not now when? If not now, why?


MCD

[Brakerider]

If not now when? If not now, why?


MCD

Couldn't agree more. JQ is a constant money spinner for the group. It's time it became a significantly more attractive place to work.

[SHVC]

I wish the guys here would also let got of staff/duty travel not a pressing issue. The insult of the $hit pay offers and reduction in conditions is.

[cLeArIcE]

I wish the guys here would also let got of staff/duty travel not a pressing issue. The insult of the $hit pay offers and reduction in conditions is.
I am not saying it's the most pressing issue. Of course pay is significantly more important etc. But, are you happy sitting in a middle seat In Y for 3-4 hours before going to operate? Are you satisfied with being treated like a piece of trash just because you work for Jetstar?
It's a very small thing that's easily fixed. For many people this eba is about respect just as much as pay. JQ pilots contribute so much to the group and yet are treated as second class citizens. Do you consider yourself an inferior pilot because you work at JQ? Because that's how QF management see you. Are you happy for that to continue? I feel like the younger generation of crew are no longer willing to tolerate the lack of respect.

You say you wish people's would let go of start duty travel.. Have you considered that just because you don't care about it, others might do? There is no reason for it not to be looked at in line with everything else.

[ManillaChillaDilla]

With the AFAP suffering a poitical " Rudder Hardover " overnight and the main protaganist for this " In principal " agreement being deposed, you would have to wonder if a mandate to even present this rubbish to the pilot group still exists.

I would think not.

Coms yet to come out but about as embarrasing as it gets for that organisation and those who cobbled this mess together.

MCD

[43Inches]

With the AFAP suffering a poitical " Rudder Hardover " overnight and the main protaganist for this " In principal " agreement being deposed, you would have to wonder if a mandate to even present this rubbish to the pilot group still exists.

I would think not.

Coms yet to come out but about as embarrasing as it gets for that organisation and those who cobbled this mess together.

MCD

Blaming the AFAP, are the reps not J* pilots and if not, why not? The union should only be proposing what the pilots want through the reps... Its not an independant body, its a culmination of the members. Sounds more like a lot are not communicating needs directly to the reps, or you are in a minority to what the majority want.

[Ollie Onion]

Duty travel is important, you do get sick of getting told the flight is oversold and to come back at checkin close to be presented with 26B for your 4 hour paxing flight to operate back. Staff Travel not a concern because we all know the pitfalls of that, but if the Company want me to go somewhere for work the least they could do is allow me to have access to seat select when forced to use the app to check in instead of being made to feel I should be great full for getting any seat. I do NOT expect confirmed Business but would like a confirmed selectable seat on the plane.

[cLeArIcE]

Duty travel is important, you do get sick of getting told the flight is oversold and to come back at checkin close to be presented with 26B for your 4 hour paxing flight to operate back. Staff Travel not a concern because we all know the pitfalls of that, but if the Company want me to go somewhere for work the least they could do is allow me to have access to seat select when forced to use the app to check in instead of being made to feel I should be great full for getting any seat. I do NOT expect confirmed Business but would like a confirmed selectable seat on the plane.

Absolutely hear what your saying and the great thing about all of this debate is we ask important questions of our employers and our reps. Whilst I agree staff travel has become somewhat useless, as far as I'm concerned if you are employed in the group, you should get the same staff travel. Shouldn't matter if you are mainline, link, one star or.. bin chicken :E

In respect to duty travel, Personally, if the aircraft has a business seat and im paxing on duty, I expect to be in it. Not down the back. If it's an all economy aircraft, then a extra leg / exit row seat that's an aisle or window with the seat next to me to be the last assigned on the aircraft is what I expect. It comes down to the company respecting the position I hold. (I think that's what's in the QF short haul eba or something similar). Why is JQ different? QF pilots get treated better on jq metal then JQ pilots. Why? It's simply disrespectful and not good enough.
Where is the open time system that was promised?
75 hours for EFA, ha get stuffed. JQ wonders why sick leave is so high...
Carers lines?
Had a crew meal on an international sector recently? You wouldn't feed it to your dog. Actually, dogs are treated better than the staff at jetstar.
late finishes and early starts between days off.
Let's not even talk about the hotel and transport situation of late.

[No Idea Either]

Hey cLeArIcE

you talkin bout JQ or VA. Sounds like the problems over there are exactly the same over here……I wonder what the common denominator might be????????

[Ollie Onion]

Absolutely hear what your saying and the great thing about all of this debate is we ask important questions of our employers and our reps. Whilst I agree staff travel has become somewhat useless, as far as I'm concerned if you are employed in the group, you should get the same staff travel. Shouldn't matter if you are mainline, link, one star or.. bin chicken :E

In respect to duty travel, Personally, if the aircraft has a business seat and im paxing on duty, I expect to be in it. Not down the back. If it's an all economy aircraft, then a extra leg / exit row seat that's an aisle or window with the seat next to me to be the last assigned on the aircraft is what I expect. It comes down to the company respecting the position I hold. (I think that's what's in the QF short haul eba or something similar). Why is JQ different? QF pilots get treated better on jq metal then JQ pilots. Why? It's simply disrespectful and not good enough.
Where is the open time system that was promised?
75 hours for EFA, ha get stuffed. JQ wonders why sick leave is so high...
Carers lines?
Had a crew meal on an international sector recently? You wouldn't feed it to your dog. Actually, dogs are treated better than the staff at jetstar.
late finishes and early starts between days off.
Let's not even talk about the hotel and transport situation of late.

I agree with everything you say.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Absolutely hear what your saying and the great thing about all of this debate is we ask important questions of our employers and our reps. Whilst I agree staff travel has become somewhat useless, as far as I'm concerned if you are employed in the group, you should get the same staff travel. Shouldn't matter if you are mainline, link, one star or.. bin chicken :E

In respect to duty travel, Personally, if the aircraft has a business seat and im paxing on duty, I expect to be in it. Not down the back. If it's an all economy aircraft, then a extra leg / exit row seat that's an aisle or window with the seat next to me to be the last assigned on the aircraft is what I expect. It comes down to the company respecting the position I hold. (I think that's what's in the QF short haul eba or something similar). Why is JQ different? QF pilots get treated better on jq metal then JQ pilots. Why? It's simply disrespectful and not good enough.
Where is the open time system that was promised?
75 hours for EFA, ha get stuffed. JQ wonders why sick leave is so high...
Carers lines?
Had a crew meal on an international sector recently? You wouldn't feed it to your dog. Actually, dogs are treated better than the staff at jetstar.
late finishes and early starts between days off.
Let's not even talk about the hotel and transport situation of late.

Totally agree with your position.
As I was once told after a rant - it’s not what you deserve, but what you negotiate. Everything in the QF award has been fought for and negotiated. The good and the bad.

Keep fighting.

[43Inches]

All I can say is when the time comes, attend the EBA meetings, voice your concerns, email the reps your concerns. Make sure everyone is involved and get consensus for what the pilot body wants and maintain those demands, and don't make stupid ambit claims that the Joyces of this world can push to the media to make out you are overpaid bus drivers wanting things the average punter would scorn at. The more united the pilot body is, the easier it is to go to PIA to push demands, start arguing internally during the negotiation phase and you might as well give up, blaming the reps, union, etc is arguing among yourselves. You want your demands simple, straight forward and acceptable to the majority. As said above you don't get what you deserve or what is right for the sake of it, you get what you negotiate at the table.

If it's clear the union is not working in your combined interest you need to voice that concern to the union, enmasse.

[Flava Saver]

Geese, they really are gaslighting the rank and file with their rubbish. Predicating pay rises on working into days off, when you have a number of bases that have a curfew. They really have no idea. Step away if your tired and it’s taken a toll on your family lives and let PROFESSIONALS do the negotiations hey. This is beyond a joke now.

[LostontheLOC]

Geese, the feds really are gaslighting the rank and file with their rubbish. Predicating pay rises on working into days off, when you have a number of bases that have a curfew. They really have no idea. Step away if your tired and it’s taken a toll on your family lives and let PROFESSIONALS do the negotiations hey. This is beyond a joke now.

I am still holding onto hope that this is just a pawn or a bishop being sacrificed for the greater move that's about to come.

[cLeArIcE]

I am still holding onto hope that this is just a pawn or a bishop being sacrificed for the greater move that's about to come.
​​​​​​
love your optimism. Hope you are correct. I can't think of what though...?Put a really **** deal out to the pilot group so it gets heavily voted down to send a message. Why?
I always figured JQ staff were the pawns to be sacrificed at every opportunity.

[LostontheLOC]

​​​​​​
love your optimism. Hope you are correct. I can't think of what though...?Put a really **** deal out to the pilot group so it gets heavily voted down to send a message. Why?
I always figured JQ staff were the pawns to be sacrificed at every opportunity.

It's the only thing I have left.

#passionatelyorange

[Mr Google Head]

Re duty travel - from my experience at VA - when we gained what we have which (don't hold me to it exactly) it's window or aisle economy X - upgradable to business class on space available. If we don't get window or aisle Econ X then we get half paxing credit. TBH I wasn't that fussed about this coming in and like comments above I was largely focused on overall $. However personal experience it was absolutely dramatic the change in our social standing amongst colleagues when this came in. Overnight it seemed we were treated with so much more respect at the gate and on board.

Good luck over the fence.

[Lookleft]

Predicating pay rises on working into days off, when you have a number of bases that have a curfew. They really have no idea.

Agree totally. To paraphrase Churchill " Never before was so much expected from so many for the benefit of so few." Open up the Perth base again and there would be a different agreement cobbled together.

[ManillaChillaDilla]

Nothing out from the AFAP as yet to vote on.

Get it on, VOTE IT DOWN, start again.

MCD

[mppgf]

Agree totally. To paraphrase Churchill " Never before was so much expected from so many for the benefit of so few." Open up the Perth base again and there would be a different agreement cobbled together.
I thought they already had a Perth base. But if not, how would a Perth base opening affect the agreement ?

[SHVC]

Tech crew Perth base is not needed, they do need a cabin crew base there tho.

[Lookleft]

The Perth base was closed during the Covid opportunity and government cash grab. Those who were left to commute are a big part of the AFAP negotiating team. So no surprises that they are making a big deal out of the additional highline payments for ODTA. As there is so much Perth flying to be covered they get a higher payment for being at home. In return they have agreed to give away a guaranteed payment for all pilots that covered required courseware on the Ipad. Hence my paraphrase.

[ShandywithSugar]

Lookleft , surely all pilots benefit from a higher ODTA from being away from base (with thanks to the optimiser) and is Perth flying being rostered exclusively to former western lads? Looking from the outside.

[MadMadMike]

Can anyone who is currently Melbourne based give an indication of lifestyle and rostering? I know it's far from a lifestyle base but how busy is it at the moment for the crews currently

[StudentInDebt]

Lookleft , surely all pilots benefit from a higher ODTA from being away from base (with thanks to the optimiser) and is Perth flying being rostered exclusively to former western lads? Looking from the outside.Yes they will do, assuming the optimiser doesn’t decide that touring duties are expensive as a result of ODTA and the layover highline scheme (get paid for your hours away from base in addition to accruing allowances).

The ex-Perth pilot thing is a dead cat being thrown on the table by the telegram mob to try and discredit the proposal by attacking the integrity of the negotiating team. Ex-PER pilots whose families still reside in WA will naturally bid for tours involving PER layovers, many other pilots will probably bid to avoid them, guess where Jbid will allocate PER overnights as a result. But for the hard of thinking this is used as a weapon to encourage division.

[Lookleft]

The integrity of the negotiating team was discredited when they threw the dead cat on the table that is the IPA. The thing about overnights is that a lot of pilots don't want them, after all Jetstar was supposed to be all about not having to overnight. So why would you build up the allowance for overnights? Why wouldn't you actually try and negotiate an increase in an allowance that all pilots receive instead of getting rid of it all together? Other than the 3% (which they also didn't negotiate) all the rest of it is made up of assumptions about what pilots may or may not do. The one allowance that is guaranteed they got rid of. A good weathervane of intent is the F/O's attitude to the IPA. No one I have flown with recently has stated an intention to vote for it. It seems strange to me that the one Union that led the charge on PIA before there was an agreement is now leading the charge on accepting an agreement with all the talk of "grounded planes at Christmas" vanishing into thin air like pixie dust.

[Colonel_Klink]

The integrity of the negotiating team was discredited when they threw the dead cat on the table that is the IPA. The thing about overnights is that a lot of pilots don't want them, after all Jetstar was supposed to be all about not having to overnight. So why would you build up the allowance for overnights? Why wouldn't you actually try and negotiate an increase in an allowance that all pilots receive instead of getting rid of it all together? Other than the 3% (which they also didn't negotiate) all the rest of it is made up of assumptions about what pilots may or may not do. The one allowance that is guaranteed they got rid of. A good weathervane of intent is the F/O's attitude to the IPA. No one I have flown with recently has stated an intention to vote for it. It seems strange to me that the one Union that led the charge on PIA before there was an agreement is now leading the charge on accepting an agreement with all the talk of "grounded planes at Christmas" vanishing into thin air like pixie dust.

Given the NEO aircraft that are due, and more specifically the range of those aircraft, is it not likely that the entire nature of flying that JQ pilots do is quite possibly changing? I can see a lot more flying up to Asia, with the subsequent increase in overnights.

And doesn’t DTA increase as well - an allowance that all pilots get?

And what about the initial increases to base salary to comply with the Award? It was only the most junior FO level that wasn’t compliant with salary in the award. I’m fairly confident QF IR wouldn’t have been keen to just hand over that equivalent increase to all other pilots - so it’s fair to assume that increase is probably down to some tough negotiating.

But that probably doesn’t fit the narrative of personally attacking those involved does it?

[Keith Myath]

The Perth base was closed during the Covid opportunity and government cash grab. Those who were left to commute are a big part of the AFAP negotiating team. So no surprises that they are making a big deal out of the additional highline payments for ODTA. As there is so much Perth flying to be covered they get a higher payment for being at home. In return they have agreed to give away a guaranteed payment for all pilots that covered required courseware on the Ipad. Hence my paraphrase.

The integrity of the negotiating team was discredited when they threw the dead cat on the table that is the IPA. The thing about overnights is that a lot of pilots don't want them, after all Jetstar was supposed to be all about not having to overnight. So why would you build up the allowance for overnights? Why wouldn't you actually try and negotiate an increase in an allowance that all pilots receive instead of getting rid of it all together? Other than the 3% (which they also didn't negotiate) all the rest of it is made up of assumptions about what pilots may or may not do. The one allowance that is guaranteed they got rid of. A good weathervane of intent is the F/O's attitude to the IPA. No one I have flown with recently has stated an intention to vote for it. It seems strange to me that the one Union that led the charge on PIA before there was an agreement is now leading the charge on accepting an agreement with all the talk of "grounded planes at Christmas" vanishing into thin air like pixie dust.

Gee lookleft, you sound like one of those ignorant and irrelevant AIPA negotiators. Here’s a lesson in the BOOT. Any “guaranteed payment for all pilots” or what you call the IPA (iPad Agreement) will reduce what the AIPA muppets call the “BOOT BOOST” in their latest update. So if the iPad payment was kept, it would reduce the award compliance payment by the same amount – about 1.5%. By moving it as the AFAP did, they have increased the award compliance by 1.5%, and funded something else worth at least 1.5%, so a net increase of 3% from the initial position.

If you idiots can’t do basic math or understand how the award works, you should leave it to the people who can. Straight up, AIPA would negotiate a position that is 3% worse. Increases in layover payments including highline and ODTA are a very smart thing as the fleet plan for Jetstar includes 18LR’s and 20 XLR’s. Only a moron would think there are not going to be additional overnights with that fleet.

[SHVC]

Yes they will do, assuming the optimiser doesn’t decide that touring duties are expensive as a result of ODTA and the layover highline scheme (get paid for your hours away from base in addition to accruing allowances).

The ex-Perth pilot thing is a dead cat being thrown on the table by the telegram mob to try and discredit the proposal by attacking the integrity of the negotiating team. Ex-PER pilots whose families still reside in WA will naturally bid for tours involving PER layovers, many other pilots will probably bid to avoid them, guess where Jbid will allocate PER overnights as a result. But for the hard of thinking this is used as a weapon to encourage division.

Do the ex PH pilots have JBid? I sure don’t.

[Lookleft]

Increases in layover payments including highline and ODTA are a very smart thing as the fleet plan for Jetstar includes 18LR’s and 20 XLR’s. Only a moron would think there are not going to be additional overnights with that fleet.

Right so we vote for something based on airframes that haven't even arrived and history has shown are often deferred or cancelled. The LRs seem to be doing CNS returns and the XLRs are due when? Keith you very publicly highlight the problem with the AFAP. No willingness to work with anyone else and an arrogance that makes Putin look like Forrest Gump. You lost a lot of people during that ridiculous PIA that cost the pilots 3% from 2020 and you now just assume that because the AFAP has decreed the pilots will follow. Put it to the vote then and see what your constituents think. After all you should be doing this for the benefit of all the pilots and not just the WA cabal.

[cLeArIcE]

Jesus Christ, this AFAP v AIPA rubbish is getting very Old. Just sort out a deal that actually values the pilot group FFS. :ugh: No one that has joined in the last 10 years gives a toss what union does what. If you can't get over it just retire already and leave the negotiations to the crews that are going to live with it for the next thirty years.
They just want to be respected and remunerated in line with what they provide to the group. They're sick of being treated like trash because they work for JQ. That 30 year career at JQ is fast becoming untenable. If this deal gets up it's time to start planning an exit me thinks.

[StudentInDebt]

Do the ex PH pilots have JBid? I sure don’t.Are you a Jetstar NB pilot? If you’re not then PER overnights are irrelevant to you, if you are then you’ve missed a lot of emails about how your working practices have changed.
nb I think jbid Is now open to WB JQ pilots as well so you should really catch up but there aren’t any 788 flights ex-PER so don’t waste a bid.

[PoppaJo]

Increases in layover payments including highline and ODTA are a very smart thing as the fleet plan for Jetstar includes 18LR’s and 20 XLR’s. Only a moron would think there are not going to be additional overnights with that fleet.
Don’t be so sure. Cairns to Japan perhaps and some DPS, however even that is questionable due slot and capacity constraints. I think you will find them to be largely domestic.

Order book was originally 320N. Has been changed a million times since, Airbus won’t budge on any contract changes unless you spend more cash with them, then you get to play with dates and payment schedules.

[ManillaChillaDilla]

Two unions infighting amongst themselves as usual.

Once again, ZERO result for the members ( Jetstar pilots ). Realistically, what has either union achived for the pilot group in the last 10 years? Nothing.

Management are laughing at us all. As usual.

This situation is simply untenable.

MCD

[FOI]

MCD - you are simply lying. Not sure what your agenda is other than just blind hate for your employer which you seem to have turned into a sport due lack of any other interests.

You haven’t even been to a roadshow yet in order to come to any serious conclusions or ask any questions.

From what I’ve seen, this is was a good deal, turned into an excellent deal with last weeks 3% announcement. A multitude of lifestyle improvements (something that most on here can’t seem to define what they actually mean by the the term) and an immediate 12% pay rise with 18% over the life of the agreement. That’s before you consider the incremental increases in EFA / WDO / DTA / ODTA etc, 50% highline paid from sign-on to sign-off on multi day trips…. PLUS PLUS.

If you carry on like a petulant child with claims this is the worst deal you’ve ever seen, then you must be:
1. Ignorant,
2. Grinding a personal axe,
3. Incapable of ever being satisfied,
4. High, or
5. All of the above.

If we vote this down we look really stupid. Look around you, if you can’t see how good a deal this is given the state of the world, then you’re walking around blind with no cane.

[Colonel_Klink]

You lost a lot of people during that ridiculous PIA that cost the pilots 3% from 2020 and you now just assume that because the AFAP has decreed the pilots will follow. Put it to the vote then and see what your constituents think. After all you should be doing this for the benefit of all the pilots and not just the WA cabal.

Yeah except for the minor point that PIA was followed a matter of weeks by a pandemic that lasted the better part of 18 months - which is what ‘cost’ the 3%.

And yet now given the extremely uncertain global economic outlook, you’re pontificating about voting down an agreement worth 18%?

The WA Cabal - a continuation of the personal attacks says more about your character than those who give up extraordinary amounts of their own time and who have negotiated what looks to be so far a pretty good deal. And come the roadshows - I’d expect a majority of JQ pilots will agree.

[FOI]

Yeah except for the minor point that PIA was followed a matter of weeks by a pandemic that lasted the better part of 18 months - which is what ‘cost’ the 3%.

And yet now given the extremely uncertain global economic outlook, you’re pontificating about voting down an agreement worth 18%?

The WA Cabal - a continuation of the personal attacks says more about your character than those who give up extraordinary amounts of their own time and who have negotiated what looks to be so far a pretty good deal. And come the roadshows - I’d expect a majority of JQ pilots will agree.

Spot on and completely agree regarding those that put in the hard yards to get this deal here. If only MCD and LL invested as much time and energy as they do in bitching like children towards something productive like those bargaining reps….

[SHVC]

Are you a Jetstar NB pilot? If you’re not then PER overnights are irrelevant to you, if you are then you’ve missed a lot of emails about how your working practices have changed.
nb I think jbid Is now open to WB JQ pilots as well so you should really catch up but there aren’t any 788 flights ex-PER so don’t waste a bid.

Not sure what you’re on about I was making reference to another comment
“Ex-PER pilots whose families still reside in WA will naturally bid for tours involving PER layovers”

I was making mention if they bid and get them they must have Jbid, Because Jbid is not working for me and many others I know.

[ManillaChillaDilla]

FOI thanks for the post.

Thats one of the funniest this year.

Best of luck with that.

MCD

[SHVC]

MCD - you are simply lying. Not sure what your agenda is other than just blind hate for your employer which you seem to have turned into a sport due lack of any other interests.

You haven’t even been to a roadshow yet in order to come to any serious conclusions or ask any questions.

From what I’ve seen, this is was a good deal, turned into an excellent deal with last weeks 3% announcement. A multitude of lifestyle improvements (something that most on here can’t seem to define what they actually mean by the the term) and an immediate 12% pay rise with 18% over the life of the agreement. That’s before you consider the incremental increases in EFA / WDO / DTA / ODTA etc, 50% highline paid from sign-on to sign-off on multi day trips…. PLUS PLUS.

If you carry on like a petulant child with claims this is the worst deal you’ve ever seen, then you must be:
1. Ignorant,
2. Grinding a personal axe,
3. Incapable of ever being satisfied,
4. High, or
5. All of the above.

If we vote this down we look really stupid. Look around you, if you can’t see how good a deal this is given the state of the world, then you’re walking around blind with no cane.

All those extras you mention come at a penalty, highline they want flexibility so we have to check our rosters for a duty until a time that the company specified. May as well get rid of highline make it an extra reserve, whilst we are on reserves there will be 4 below 75hrs now and that extra half WDO for finishing after 23:00 before a day off does not benefit SY or ADL base with curfew so you will be signed off before 23:00. WDO increase who cares i would be happy if we removed that clause all together might actually stimulate some decent crew numbers. I could go on but I will not be convinced it’s a good deal because they offer what we really should be on with normal CPI increases over last 4yrs while giving more lifestyle conditions.

[Phil Errup]

Not sure what you’re on about I was making reference to another comment
“Ex-PER pilots whose families still reside in WA will naturally bid for tours involving PER layovers”

I was making mention if they bid and get them they must have Jbid, Because Jbid is not working for me and many others I know.


JBID was sold to the pilot group as a magical carpet ride into a life of customised rosters and endless opportunities.

The end result, in my opinion, has been diabolical, and no one seems to be talking about it….

My “lifestyle” is at an all time LOW

My roster is the most fatiguing it’s EVER been considering the rostered number of hours.

Getting a few requested days off in a month….. don’t even get me started…. the whole things is a sham.
And they wonder why sick leave is at an all time high.

Add JBID to the list of lies we’ve been subject too for the last decade.

[FOI]

All those extras you mention come at a penalty, highline they want flexibility so we have to check our rosters for a duty until a time that the company specified. May as well get rid of highline make it an extra reserve, whilst we are on reserves there will be 4 below 75hrs now and that extra half WDO for finishing after 23:00 before a day off does not benefit SY or ADL base with curfew so you will be signed off before 23:00. WDO increase who cares i would be happy if we removed that clause all together might actually stimulate some decent crew numbers. I could go on but I will not be convinced it’s a good deal because they offer what we really should be on with normal CPI increases over last 4yrs while giving more lifestyle conditions.

Do you really think that checking for a next day’s duty by 1700 the day before is both a material “penalty” and akin to an extra standby? I for one do not, given what I’m getting for it. As for now being remunerated for a misconnection into a day off, 4 hours at EFA rate between 2300-0100 and a WDO beyond that, is a far cry from the DIL I currently get that I can never use, which = zero. Are you seriously suggesting all improvements should be designed bespoke to a specific base because of curfews? I’d suggest we keep an eye on the bigger picture. We have some of the most restrictive standby provisions of any airline, that are very much in our favour. Restrictions on standby days via a table appended to above or below threshold is and always has been extraordinary. The company will not “simulate decent crew numbers” in lieu of a WDO provision, nor should we think that’s something we want. The nature of a leisure airline model is very cyclical in a year with its peaks and troughs, they can bump up the revenue exponentially in peaks relying on WDOs to get around our highly restrictive standby coverage limits. Works for those that want the cash, if you don’t wish to lose your DDO, don’t put your name on the list… Simply adding pilots to kill off that flexibility is dumb business and of course they won’t do that.

As for the CPI argument, well we were the masters of our own demise 3 years ago in our actions. We put ourselves behind, sorry, that’s the reality. And the “what we should be on anyway “ argument, sorry but again that’s ridiculous. All the company has to do is satisfy the BOOT, they’re under no legal obligations here to do anything but that. This well exceeds the BOOT as far as I can tell.

Whilst everything traded in this EA comes at a cost, or “penalty” as you see it, I can see we’ve given very little away for immense benefit to us overall.

Vote this down at our own peril. If you think our predicament was bad from knocking back the 3%’s, 3 years ago and entering PIA, then try this on for size and learn the hardest lesson we’ll ever learn.

[FOI]

FOI thanks for the post.

Thats one of the funniest this year.

Best of luck with that.

MCD

A response with the maturity and intelligence I anticipated. People only ever say things like that when they’re insecure in their stance and can’t bring themselves to agree publicly.

[Lookleft]

As for now being remunerated for a misconnection into a day off, 4 hours at EFA rate between 2300-0100 and a WDO beyond that, is a far cry from the DIL I currently get that I can never use, which = zero.
Once again the negotiators should be listening to their constituency. How about negotiating that no one is rostered a duty after 20:00 before an RDO? Pilots would preference lifestyle over payments for poor rostering practices.

Do you really think that checking for a next day’s duty by 1700 the day before is both a material “penalty” and akin to an extra standby?

Thats the way most pilots see it. What was wrong with the current system where if you checked your roster at the end of the duty and nothing was allocated then you effectively got another day off. The AVD was negotiated during the current EBA (the 2015 one) so why is it already being changed from a system that pilots were happy with? Its not just about the money. Don't forget what pilots have had to put up with for the 2 years of COVID.

Yeah except for the minor point that PIA was followed a matter of weeks by a pandemic that lasted the better part of 18 months - which is what ‘cost’ the 3%.

I love the spin. If the PIA didn't happen then the agreement would have been signed before March 2020 and the 3% would have been locked in. QF Shorthaul got their 3%. Different issues but the evidence suggests that PIA was the difference. That and a willingness by their negotiators to get the job done and not beat their chests like the gorillas in Rwanda.

The AFAP and JQ management severely underestimate the level of resentment and animosity that the pilots have towards them. If this is such a good deal then of course it will be voted up but that is not how it is perceived out in the real world of operations. From what I hear on the flightdeck F/O's are tired of being talked at by their AFAP reps. You need to listen to those you purport to represent.

[FOI]

Once again the negotiators should be listening to their constituency. How about negotiating that no one is rostered a duty after 20:00 before an RDO? Pilots would preference lifestyle over payments for poor rostering practices.



Thats the way most pilots see it. What was wrong with the current system where if you checked your roster at the end of the duty and nothing was allocated then you effectively got another day off. The AVD was negotiated during the current EBA (the 2015 one) so why is it already being changed from a system that pilots were happy with? Its not just about the money. Don't forget what pilots have had to put up with for the 2 years of COVID.



I love the spin. If the PIA didn't happen then the agreement would have been signed before March 2020 and the 3% would have been locked in. QF Shorthaul got their 3%. Different issues but the evidence suggests that PIA was the difference. That and a willingness by their negotiators to get the job done and not beat their chests like the gorillas in Rwanda.

The AFAP and JQ management severely underestimate the level of resentment and animosity that the pilots have towards them. If this is such a good deal then of course it will be voted up but that is not how it is perceived out in the real world of operations. From what I hear on the flightdeck F/O's are tired of being talked at by their AFAP reps. You need to listen to those you purport to represent.

I think you mean the level of resentment that you and a couple of your mates have against them. Be careful how you generalise.

To suggest the PIA would have locked in a March 2020 EA is both highly speculative and I would suggest far from the truth. I think COVID actually saved us from what may have transpired after that little experiment.

[43Inches]

The AFAP and JQ management severely underestimate the level of resentment and animosity that the pilots have towards them.

Why are the AFAP reps not JQ pilots? Or are they just pilots with a differing POV to the majority? I don't get this statement that the AFAP is somehow responsible for what is a group negotiation that the majority of pilots should be involved with. Or is it a case that some pilots don't understand that they need to communicate their needs with the union to get results they want. The union should just be providing resources for the pilots to sort out their own EBA via their own pilot reps. All the EBAs I have been involved with the union is advised by the in house reps and assist negotiations as the workers fight for what they want. There will be always fringe dwellers that want something fantastical that won't happen but the majority will be happy, which is the purpose.

These sort of statements seem to be more management minded to seed division in the pilot body rather than be united behind the union.

[ManillaChillaDilla]

FOI,

It would seem there have been several raw nerves exposed for you.

Abusing people because they express an opinion really does smack of desperation. Remember, everyone is entitled to an opinion. Just because you yell louder doesnt mean you are correct.

Perhaps wait for the road shows before you try to bludgeon your membership base with your diatribe regarding what we are worth. Your hard sell on this forum hasn't achieved much other than to highlight your identity.

Last time I looked you werent the moderator here. Lookleft really did nail it.

MCD

[FOI]

Why are the AFAP reps not JQ pilots? Or are they just pilots with a differing POV to the majority? I don't get this statement that the AFAP is somehow responsible for what is a group negotiation that the majority of pilots should be involved with. Or is it a case that some pilots don't understand that they need to communicate their needs with the union to get results they want. The union should just be providing resources for the pilots to sort out their own EBA via their own pilot reps. All the EBAs I have been involved with the union is advised by the in house reps and assist negotiations as the workers fight for what they want. There will be always fringe dwellers that want something fantastical that won't happen but the majority will be happy, which is the purpose.

These sort of statements seem to be more management minded to seed division in the pilot body rather than be united behind the union.

The AFAP did a comprehensive survey of members, as far as I can tell what has been included in the IPA reflects those survey results. Bearing in mind there are claims that may have been dropped because the cost of trade was too high.

I feel for the bargaining reps, like all things some of what you get over the line won’t appease everyone. Amongst us pilots it just seems some minorities can’t grapple with that concept and succumb to Chicken Little sky is falling tactics.

[Lookleft]

I think COVID actually saved us from what may have transpired after that little experiment.

And that is the sort of logic that underpins this so called in principle agreement where the lack of a payrise is considered a good outcome. Unbelievable.

I think you mean the level of resentment that you and a couple of your mates have against them. Be careful how you generalise.

Most of the F/O's I fly with are either AFAP or ex-AFAP. In fact some of them prior to this document were some of the most supportive union pilots I have flown with. To paraphrase another historical figure "Its the lifestyle stoopid."

[FOI]

FOI,

It would seem there have been several raw nerves exposed for you.

Abusing people because they express an opinion really does smack of desperation. Remember, everyone is entitled to an opinion. Just because you yell louder doesnt mean you are correct.

Perhaps wait for the road shows before you try to bludgeon your membership base with your diatribe regarding what we are worth. Your hard sell on this forum hasn't achieved much other than to highlight your identity.

Last time I looked you werent the moderator here. Lookleft really did nail it.

MCD

No yelling from me MCD, sorry you feel so oppressed and aggrieved.

Just because I can see the risk at play here with your reckless attempts to derail what has obviously been a long hard road to get here, doesn’t mean I have any personal investment as you allude to. I don’t know you, nor you me, probably best it stays that way.

I have reached my tolerance threshold regarding a noisy keyboard warrior minority advocating unjustified hatred and negativity when not armed with facts or reason. Hence I feel compelled to express my views to your contrary. That’s not abusing people, it is publicly calling you out for your attempts to derail this, which was largely going uncontested.

[FOI]

And that is the sort of logic that underpins this so called in principle agreement where the lack of a payrise is considered a good outcome. Unbelievable.



Most of the F/O's I fly with are either AFAP or ex-AFAP. In fact some of them prior to this document were some of the most supportive union pilots I have flown with. To paraphrase another historical figure "Its the lifestyle stoopid."

Lookleft, I just don’t think you understand how industrial relations work. Opportunity was lost and a tactical dice was rolled; now here’s the chance to make up for some lost ground. There’s no obligation of the company to meet us at where we think we should be through our lens of entitlement. It’s just business, and it appears to me the company has come along way in meeting us much closer to where we’d like to be through robust negotiation.

Members will come and go and opinions will fly everywhere, ops normal. I just want balance in assessment as it is so often the negative sentiment holders that are the noisiest in the room.

[ManillaChillaDilla]

Lectures aside, lets get the vote on then.

That will be the real determiner of membership sentiment.

FOI I sincerely hope you are not involved in a union sence for all our sakes. By the tone of your post though Im assuming you are.

Sadly you provide a graphic insight as to the AFAPs contempt for their PAYING MEMBERS.

MCD

[cLeArIcE]

I swear some people at JQ have Stockholm syndrome. Only ever flown at REX and JQ with no idea what a real airline is like.
No one gives a **** anymore about the AFAP v AIPA bull****. Work together, figure it out and get a better deal for the group. If you can't do that go away and let the young ones at it. They don't care about your stupid grudges.
Everyone has always hated on management, but now that some are asking difficult questions of their union reps the AFAP are getting their knockers in a knot.

[Lookleft]

Opportunity was lost and a tactical dice was rolled;

If thats your understanding of how the industrial relations system works then it is no wonder that Jetstar pilots are the laughing stock of the airline industry. For PIA to be effective then it needs to have a specific purpose and not be based "on a roll of the tactical dice" It also needs to be something the entire pilot body participates in, not just a few pilots who were unfortunate enough to be rostered on the weekend of PIA. BTW it all collapsed like a house of cards when the Company threatened a 7 day standown.

It’s just business, and it appears to me the company has come along way in meeting us much closer to where we’d like to be through robust negotiation.

Is that what you call it. I call it the Company playing one off against the other and in the end it has worked. For a while it was good cop v bad cop with AIPA being the good cop and the AFAP being the bad cop if you kept track of the narrative coming from the CP. Now all of a sudden the AFAP have come up with this masterstroke and an in principle (an oxymoron when comes to JQ) agreement with AIPA effectively being shut out of negotiations. As long as the AFAP see AIPA as the enemy the Company will always be the beneficiary. From what I see of this agreement the Company are the major beneficiary. More contactable times, more free work on the Ipad during ODP and allowances based on flawed assumptions of what may or may not happen.

[ZebraFlyer]

The integrity of the negotiating team was discredited when they threw the dead cat on the table that is the IPA.

I wasn’t aware of the Institute of Public Affairs having a say in the matter.

[Gunner747400]

Meanwhile in a country where the pilot union actually have some cohones, pilots are negotiating 20% payrises.

....But yes lets just be happy with a rise nearly 3% below inflation, and continue to have division between the workforce. What great collective bargaining that is going to achieve...

Unbelievable, it really is just a race to the bottom in this country.

[cLeArIcE]

Meanwhile in a country where the pilot union actually have some cohones, pilots are negotiating 20% payrises.

....But yes lets just be happy with a rise nearly 3% below inflation, and continue to have division between the workforce. What great collective bargaining that is going to achieve...

Unbelievable, it really is just a race to the bottom in this country.
Honestly mate some of these people have no idea what happens in the big world outside of Aus. It's sad we can't value ourselves. They are still going on about 89 or AFAP v AiPA or some other stupid thing. It's like a bunch of old men yelling at the clouds.

[43Inches]

I still don't get it, if it's that bad it will get voted down. What does AFAP, AIPA or anyone else have to do with it, when the pilot body will either want it or not. The pilots will vote for it based on what each individual thinks and you move on, if it gets voted down, everyone needs to get together and work out what you want and work in unison towards it, otherwise you might end up with worse. If it gets voted up, then its done and dusted until next time, move on, the majority chose it. What other companies get, especially overseas is irrelevant, you fight for what you need here and now. In some cases the company will just stonewall and not progress, even with PIA, all depends on how much you want to fight for something. Any signs of disunity and the company will drive a wedge in to get traction.

[FOI]

There are those that are relying on facts and looking at things in the whole context (which I believe is the majority to be honest).

Then there are those that are seemingly determined to be miserable, angry and myopic no matter what’s put in front of them. Shut off from reality, even after an experience like COVID, too miserable to stay, yet too lazy/scared to go.

Want to live in the best country on Earth and earn more income than the majority of the population under an EBA that protects you in so many ways compared to other shift workers? Then get off Prune, ask some questions, do some maths (as I did) then form an educated opinion based on facts and reasonableness. If it’s in the negative, then that’s fine, but leave the reps alone, most out there ultimately have no idea what they do and at what personal expense comes at doing it.

[Lookleft]

but leave the reps alone, most out there ultimately have no idea what they do and at what personal expense comes at doing it.

Couldn't agree more or maybe thats not what your level 6 English meant to convey.

Want to live in the best country on Earth and earn more income than the majority of the population under an EBA that protects you in so many ways compared to other shift workers?

Yep keep drinking the Company supplied Kool Aid.

They are still going on about 89 or AFAP v AiPA or some other stupid thing.

Who mentioned 89? The whole AFAP v AIPA thing is actually a thing and its why you haven't had a payrise since 2017 but sure blame it on the old blokes. Its the younger pilots who seem to be doing the most complaining though about what a crap deal is being served up.

I wasn’t aware of the Institute of Public Affairs having a say in the matter.

Boom-tish

I have more than said my piece so I will leave it to others to discuss. As always the decision as to whether its going to get up will be left to those who actually work for Jetstar and not the rubber neckers who have put in their typically useless contributions.

[Flava Saver]

Wow. Hasn’t this afternoon shown how they have misread the room and lost control of the narrative with that response. What an embarrassment this is.

[LostontheLOC]

Wow. Hasn’t this afternoon shown how they have misread the room and lost control of the narrative with that response. What an embarrassment this is.
It's a ******* joke...

I honestly believe that we need to start again..

@FOI it's not a good deal, it's not an excellent deal now it's 3%, it's an unknown deal, wait till you have the document before you make your mind up.

[Gunner747400]

n the majority of the population under an EBA that protects you in so many ways compared to other shift workers? .
Oh dear, you really are naive.

Most other industries that have similar union density to that of pilots (maritime, mining and construction just to name a few), that have a significantly trained/educated skill level, get paid more to work less, have better conditions and have negotiated pay increases in line with or above inflation (generally with clauses that increase at a certain rate, or CPI if higher).

But sure, just keep squirting crap out to suit your narrative.

[ManillaChillaDilla]

This EA is rapidly becoming a vote not only for working conditions for a pilot body but also a vote on the continued rellevance of the AFAP within the Australian airline landscape.

Get this one wrong again and you stand to lose a lot of PAYING MEMBERS.

After all, this EA is about the needs of Jetstar Pilots isn't it? It is certainly not about the needs of the AFAP. { See previous FOI posts. }

Fly safe.

MCD

[cLeArIcE]

As much As I don't like this deal (some things are okay, doesn't go far enough) and the constant bickering between the unions frustrates the hell out of me, I do feel a bit sorry for both unions. Do not underestimate how much hatred and anger there is amongst the pilot group for JQ. This is not just frustration or a dislike of a few management characters etc, this is 100% pure hatred for the company. They feel over worked, under paid, not respected anywhere near their pears at QF or link and they have had enough. There is zero good will left.

Unfortunately for the AFAP (did they not read the room?) Some of that is now being directed at them. This agreement does not match the expectations of many. They are upset and are voicing that. But, it was always going to be difficult to get their message across the rage and hatred.

​​​​​

[SHVC]

Do you really think that checking for a next day’s duty by 1700 the day before is both a material “penalty” and akin to an extra standby? I for one do not, given what I’m getting for it.

I do, because I still have to be engaged when I am signed off, also, its just another stone eroded away from condtions.

As for now being remunerated for a misconnection into a day off, 4 hours at EFA rate between 2300-0100 and a WDO beyond that, is a far cry from the DIL I currently get that I can never use, which = zero. Are you seriously suggesting all improvements should be designed bespoke to a specific base because of curfews? I’d suggest we keep an eye on the bigger picture.
Copy, I do have my eye on the big picture and not short term money. How about you see the big picture and negotiate something better! rostered sign off by 17:00 or 19:00 before a DDO or AL and not 22:30 and not back on 05:00 two days later. you just keep thinking small and work your DDO for WDO for that extra money.

We have some of the most restrictive standby provisions of any airline, that are very much in our favour. Restrictions on standby days via a table appended to above or below threshold is and always has been extraordinary.

Good, thats something we really need to hold onto not pi$$ away for a few extra $$$

The company will not “simulate decent crew numbers” in lieu of a WDO provision, nor should we think that’s something we want. The nature of a leisure airline model is very cyclical in a year with its peaks and troughs, they can bump up the revenue exponentially in peaks relying on WDOs to get around our highly restrictive standby coverage limits. Works for those that want the cash, if you don’t wish to lose your DDO, don’t put your name on the list… Simply adding pilots to kill off that flexibility is dumb business and of course they won’t do that.
You say peak for WDO, you're obviously very deluded or in a very small base, ML, SY and BNE as far as I know have CAPT and FOs doing multiple WDO some I hear doing 10 a month all yr round.

As for the CPI argument, well we were the masters of our own demise 3 years ago in our actions. We put ourselves behind, sorry, that’s the reality. And the “what we should be on anyway “ argument, sorry but again that’s ridiculous. All the company has to do is satisfy the BOOT, they’re under no legal obligations here to do anything but that. This well exceeds the BOOT as far as I can tell.

Whilst everything traded in this EA comes at a cost, or “penalty” as you see it, I can see we’ve given very little away for immense benefit to us overall.

Vote this down at our own peril. If you think our predicament was bad from knocking back the 3%’s, 3 years ago and entering PIA, then try this on for size and learn the hardest lesson we’ll ever learn.

If its good for the company, It is not good for us, thats how EBA work. considering the fast nature that this has been put forward there is background stuff that the company will be sneaking in that we will only realize when its to late. PIA I am against stop work that achieves nothing, something as simple as not working on DDO will slow things up alot, but then, we will need you to stop working DDO and by the sounds you would not.

[ddrwk]

This agreement does not match the expectations of many.
​​​​​

The AFAP had a role to play in managing realistic expectations. Unfortunately, their leadership throughout this process in setting those expectations (through conduct and communications) is now coming back to bite.

[Keith Myath]

Right so we vote for something based on airframes that haven't even arrived and history has shown are often deferred or cancelled. The LRs seem to be doing CNS returns and the XLRs are due when? Keith you very publicly highlight the problem with the AFAP. No willingness to work with anyone else and an arrogance that makes Putin look like Forrest Gump. You lost a lot of people during that ridiculous PIA that cost the pilots 3% from 2020 and you now just assume that because the AFAP has decreed the pilots will follow. Put it to the vote then and see what your constituents think. After all you should be doing this for the benefit of all the pilots and not just the WA cabal.

Layover highline is worth 1% to narrowbody pilots on current layover hours, and 3% to widebody pilots on current layover hours. Most reasonable pilots can see layover hours are increasing at Jetstar. You wanted the iPad agreement back which would put everyone behind at least 3%. Vote NO if you think the LR's and XLR's aren't coming, or vote NO if you think they will be doing shark patrol up and down the east coast. I don't care why you want to vote NO, but I do want to know what your plan is if this agreement gets voted down.

Lookleft, do you even work for Jetstar?

What is it you want?

What are you going to do to get it?

You criticize the AFAP's PIA, yet have no logical plan for voting this agreement down. What is going to make the company give more? A sternly worded PA and red tie campaign?

[Keith Myath]

From what I’ve seen, this is was a good deal, turned into an excellent deal with last weeks 3% announcement. A multitude of lifestyle improvements (something that most on here can’t seem to define what they actually mean by the the term) and an immediate 12% pay rise with 18% over the life of the agreement. That’s before you consider the incremental increases in EFA / WDO / DTA / ODTA etc, 50% highline paid from sign-on to sign-off on multi day trips…. PLUS PLUS.

Actually it's a 22.9% increase in base pay over the life of the agreement. On 1 July 2025 base pay will be 22.9% higher than it is today. Plus all the other stuff.

[Keith Myath]

whilst we are on reserves there will be 4 below 75hrs now

No there won't. There are nil extra standby days. It's still 3 below 75 hours.

and that extra half WDO for finishing after 23:00 before a day off does not benefit SY or ADL base with curfew so you will be signed off before 23:00. WDO increase who cares i would be happy if we removed that clause all together might actually stimulate some decent crew numbers. I could go on but I will not be convinced it’s a good deal because they offer what we really should be on with normal CPI increases over last 4yrs while giving more lifestyle conditions.

If SYD, ADL or OOL crew miss curfew and then operate / pax home the next day, they get a full WDO. As far as I can tell, aircraft don't care if it's a curfew port before going tech. Also, if they are pushing curfew and still manage to land, but set the park brake after 2245 they will still get the 4 hrs hard credit as their sign off will be after 2300.

[SHVC]

No there won't. There are nil extra standby days. It's still 3 below 75 hours.
Are you positive on that? the company wants this, the union never squashed it, so stand-by for the document and see.



If SYD, ADL or OOL crew miss curfew and then operate / pax home the next day, they get a full WDO. As far as I can tell, aircraft don't care if it's a curfew port before going tech. Also, if they are pushing curfew and still manage to land, but set the park brake after 2245 they will still get the 4 hrs hard credit as their sign off will be after 2300.
Maybe I am being to sceptical, it is all in the wording. Email from AFAP of the in principle 30/9/22 has "sign off" we all know the company we work for. Needs to be very clear with "sign on when a DDO was roster-ed and sign off occurs out of base before 23:00 the FCM to get at a full WDO payment and is rostered most direct flight to home base whether operating or paxing" just needs to be iron clad either way, otherwise they will play it as just sign off 22:30 day before and you're out of base have a DIL instead.


This is my concern, ppl just jumping at 2/5ths of f all money and giving away conditions which is all we have thinking its a pay rise when it is not,let be clear on that! it will be all in the wording and I guarantee it will favor the company to use the concessions in a much worse way than intended.

[Flava Saver]

Qantas Group (Read JETSTAR incl) are on track for record profits in 2023.

The urgency to lock in this deal by the company is glaringly obvious..? Lock in these fools for another 3 years with no lifestyle provisions BEFORE this is announced.. Burn them out up into Asia in their new neos every week. Away from home life. Bosses enjoying their bonuses and kpi’s. No PIA over Xmas. Massive bonuses. High Fives.

The ‘negotiators’ deserve an Oscar for best acting in a drama series, and scaremongering.

[LostontheLOC]

Qantas Group (Read JETSTAR incl) are on track for record profits in 2023.

The urgency to lock in this deal by the company is glaringly obvious..? Lock in these fools for another 3 years with no lifestyle provisions BEFORE this is announced.. Burn them out up into Asia in their new neos every week. Away from home life. Bosses enjoying their bonuses and kpi’s. No PIA over Xmas. Massive bonuses. High Fives.

The ‘negotiators’ deserve an Oscar for best acting in a drama series, and scaremongering.

Case in point, anyone who votes to approve this deal is signing away their future and the futures of the people who will be employed in years to come...

Jetstar is not a viable long term employment option.

[dive and drive]

Jetstar F/O here.

I'm looking at spending the next 25 years of my life flying planes.

I have a growing family with young kids at home.

I want to be able to afford them a decent middle-class living standard in an Australian capital city (where most Jetstar pilots are based by the way) AND I want to have enough free time to be able to see them growing up.

The proposed EBA does not fulfil these requirements so it's a NO vote for me.

Very simple decision.

[GA Driver]

As an F/O, what exactly were you expecting from the proposed agreement?
There has been a lot of talk here about lifestyle, but not too many answers to that.

By all means vote No if that’s what you feel, it’s your right. But I don’t see too many realistic proposals being put forward in place of what’s been negotiated.

[aussieflyboy]

As an F/O, what exactly were you expecting from the proposed agreement?
There has been a lot of talk here about lifestyle, but not too many answers to that.

By all means vote No if that’s what you feel, it’s your right. But I don’t see too many realistic proposals being put forward in place of what’s been negotiated.

You’ll be amazed at the realistic proposals that’ll suddenly appear with a NO vote and the threat of PIA over Xmas…

[GA Driver]

You’ll be amazed at the realistic proposals that’ll suddenly appear with a NO vote and the threat of PIA over Xmas…
I’m not asking about the company, I’m asking what people were/are expecting?

[Ollie Onion]

The best thing about this job was the lack of time away from home base, the Optimiser has f&*ked that and changed the entire dynamic of this job. Any EBA needs some serious lifestyle provisions as the rosters generated by the optimiser are not sustainable.

[theheadmaster]

You’ll be amazed at the realistic proposals that’ll suddenly appear with a NO vote and the threat of PIA over Xmas…

Of course that is an option, but how did it work out last time compared to what was on the table at the time?

[dive and drive]

As an F/O, what exactly were you expecting from the proposed agreement?
There has been a lot of talk here about lifestyle, but not too many answers to that.

By all means vote No if that’s what you feel, it’s your right. But I don’t see too many realistic proposals being put forward in place of what’s been negotiated.

It is more a matter of what terms and conditions I expect from an airline I'm supposed to work for a quarter of a century or more without losing my health and/or family in the process.

Three basic items come to mind immediately:

1) lower EFA threshold. It should be 60-65 hours max;

2) minimum credit for standby during roster building. At the moment it is nil and it shouldn't be;

2) with the weird multi-day trips that the optimizer is spitting out without apparent regard for JBid and the arrival of the LRs and XLRs, there are going to be more and more overnights. There should be some rules around how many overnights can be rostered and how they should be spread around the crews, at least for the Airbus fleet.

Just my two cents

[Phil Errup]

As an F/O, what exactly were you expecting from the proposed agreement?
There has been a lot of talk here about lifestyle, but not too many answers to that.

By all means vote No if that’s what you feel, it’s your right. But I don’t see too many realistic proposals being put forward in place of what’s been negotiated.

- A MUCH lower EFA with a REAL open time system…. Which, mind you, was supposed to have been negotiated under the current EBA.

- A complete redesign of the ridiculous leave system.

- JBID facilitating high density flying requests with resulting DFD’s. Currently JBID and the optimiser are programmed to provided minimum days off regardless of density preferences.

- The ability to formally bid IN for overnights or OUT. The people that want them aren’t getting enough, the people that don’t want them are getting to many.

- “Vacant” duties to be assigned within 2 hours. No more of this rubbish 3am phone call on just about EVERY standby because crewing are “keeping their options open”.

[Wear the Foxhat]

Well I am an enthusiastic YES voter. My Base Salary will be $246,765 at the end of the agreement which as has been pointed out isn’t that far away. Doing the overnights and hours I do now, which is as little work as possible I expect to earn $285,000. I don’t work any EFA and I’m not interested in WDOs so I don’t work any, and my lifestyle is all the better for it. If I get rostered crap, which is most times, I go fatigued generally on the last day of a run of 5 (early, early, late, late, late). FTG the last late and it turns my crap 3 days off recovery into 4 days and costs me zero. If Jetstar want to roster me crap, no problem, FTG and I make it their problem. I’ve never had a FTG day get nocked back. I get FO’s complaining all the time about how it shouldn’t be this way, I agree, but it is so why work yourself into a lather of worry when you can just use the fatigue procedures to make it their problem. We’re never in EFA so who cares if we drop hours. I don’t understand why pilots want a lower EFA threshold, it just puts more money at risk.



A big thanks to the reps who made it possible. I hope I’m in the silent majority and I’m eternally grateful for your work. I’ll buy you a beer at the roadshow or downrange.

[Colonel_Klink]

We’re never in EFA so who cares if we drop hours. I don’t understand why pilots want a lower EFA threshold, it just puts more money at risk.



Ask many a Virgin pilot about moving to a system with a low MGH - they hate it. Do not underestimate the importance of a guaranteed salary. Any attempt to move to a lower overtime threshold should be resisted at every step unless it comes with a significant increase to your hourly rate.

The risk of the business is transferred to the pilot under a low overtime system. Funny how that risk is never offset by reward….

[The Banjo]

Ask many a Virgin pilot about moving to a system with a low MGH - they hate it. Do not underestimate the importance of a guaranteed salary. Any attempt to move to a lower overtime threshold should be resisted at every step unless it comes with a significant increase to your hourly rate.

The risk of the business is transferred to the pilot under a low overtime system. Funny how that risk is never offset by reward….

Well said. Most entitlements are calculated on base salary. So all annual leave, LSL, sick leave, redundancy etc. Borrowing capacity from the bank does not necessarily have overtime in the equation.
Understand and be careful what you wish for.

[cLeArIcE]

What do I want?
1. A lower EFA is okay, but it must be in a conjunction with an increase in base salary. I would accept the proposed pay in the agreement but at 60 hours.
2. Treated in the exact same way as QF/ Qlink when it comes to staff and duty travel, lounge's etc. Sick and tired of being treated like a piece of garbage. Even on JQ, Having to rely on the goodwill of ground staff to find me a half decent seat and beg for free cup of tea or a sandwich on board is degrading and disrespectful to the position I hold.
3. Open time system. I have no interest in working hard. Some people do. Give people some Level of control in their lives.
4. A fair rostering/ bidding system that results in more days Off if you work harder. JQ are taking the piss at the moment.
5. I like over nights, so generally jbid work's for me but they should be distributed fairer. Give them to the people that want them. I'll forgo a few days at home if it means no 4 sector days X 5. Others are ok with that. Again it's about providing choice and bit of control. Loosing control terrifies Jetstar.
6. Same standard of hotels as QF
7. Same standard of crew meals as QF and a return of crew meals on trans Tasman ops. (Maybe opt in?) It's a pain trying to organise food but still comply with lags etc. It's an international flight FFS.
8. An end to the games, lies and dishonesty subjected on us from crewing and work force planning.
9. Adequate crew number's
10. Not treating the FRMS limits as a target. I thought the tenth time I called in fatigued on a late to early transition they'd get the message but I guess not....

That's all a joke by the way....none of those thing's have any hope of happening. I've (almost) come to terms with that I will always be seen as a lower class piece of **** by the QF group. So instead Of being angry, Im trying to embrace it and focus on being a piece of **** employee in return. I still get angry occasionally but it's getting less. Look after my pax, look after my crew and f*CK jetstar.

[Cessna Jockey]

Well I am an enthusiastic YES voter. My Base Salary will be $246,765 at the end of the agreement which as has been pointed out isn’t that far away. Doing the overnights and hours I do now, which is as little work as possible I expect to earn $285,000. I don’t work any EFA and I’m not interested in WDOs so I don’t work any, and my lifestyle is all the better for it. If I get rostered crap, which is most times, I go fatigued generally on the last day of a run of 5 (early, early, late, late, late). FTG the last late and it turns my crap 3 days off recovery into 4 days and costs me zero. If Jetstar want to roster me crap, no problem, FTG and I make it their problem. I’ve never had a FTG day get nocked back. I get FO’s complaining all the time about how it shouldn’t be this way, I agree, but it is so why work yourself into a lather of worry when you can just use the fatigue procedures to make it their problem. We’re never in EFA so who cares if we drop hours. I don’t understand why pilots want a lower EFA threshold, it just puts more money at risk.



A big thanks to the reps who made it possible. I hope I’m in the silent majority and I’m eternally grateful for your work. I’ll buy you a beer at the roadshow or downrange.

So you finally have a chance to make a real change for good and address some of the issues you outlined above, yet you’ll vote Yes purely to take the cash. You’re the type of buffoon that gets food poisoning at the same restaurant but continues to go back because they keep giving you discount vouchers.

[LostontheLOC]

Well I am an enthusiastic YES voter. My Base Salary will be $246,765 at the end of the agreement which as has been pointed out isn’t that far away. Doing the overnights and hours I do now, which is as little work as possible I expect to earn $285,000. I don’t work any EFA and I’m not interested in WDOs so I don’t work any, and my lifestyle is all the better for it. If I get rostered crap, which is most times, I go fatigued generally on the last day of a run of 5 (early, early, late, late, late). FTG the last late and it turns my crap 3 days off recovery into 4 days and costs me zero. If Jetstar want to roster me crap, no problem, FTG and I make it their problem. I’ve never had a FTG day get nocked back. I get FO’s complaining all the time about how it shouldn’t be this way, I agree, but it is so why work yourself into a lather of worry when you can just use the fatigue procedures to make it their problem. We’re never in EFA so who cares if we drop hours. I don’t understand why pilots want a lower EFA threshold, it just puts more money at risk.



A big thanks to the reps who made it possible. I hope I’m in the silent majority and I’m eternally grateful for your work. I’ll buy you a beer at the roadshow or downrange.

I worry for the FO's who are going to spend 25-30 years in this company. A 248k base isn't that far away? It's miles away from the pay people should have, I would strongly suggest you work out pay per hour, if you're not shocked work it out for the FO's instead, it's a good time to start thinking collectively as a pilot ground.

I would caution anyone making their mind up enthusiastically or not before you have the final wording of the document in your hand, you run the risk of looking like a fool.

Also, the beers are free at the roadshow.

[Wear the Foxhat]

So you finally have a chance to make a real change for good and address some of the issues you outlined above, yet you’ll vote Yes purely to take the cash. You’re the type of buffoon that gets food poisoning at the same restaurant but continues to go back because they keep giving you discount vouchers.

Thanks for making it personal, it says more about you than me.

Unashamedly I’ll vote yes. We are being offered what is conservatively a 25% increase in pay, and you want me to put it all at risk because you can’t figure out how to report fatigued? I think it’s pretty smart to lock in the pay rise, fatigue reports will fix the crap rostering when enough pilots do them. History has shown they work eventually.

I worry for the FO's who are going to spend 25-30 years in this company. A 248k base isn't that far away? It's miles away from the pay people should have, I would strongly suggest you work out pay per hour, if you're not shocked work it out for the FO's instead, it's a good time to start thinking collectively as a pilot ground. I would caution anyone making their mind up enthusiastically or not before you have the final wording of the document in your hand, you run the risk of looking like a fool.

Anyone who thinks a 25% increase is not a good deal is a fool. I have spoken to a rep, and I’m pretty happy with the answers. There are plenty looking like fools whipping up negative sentiment on Telegram. The newfound interest in the welfare of SOs is laughable. Nothing like a bit of self interest.

[GA Driver]

So you finally have a chance to make a real change for good and address some of the issues you outlined above, yet you’ll vote Yes purely to take the cash. You’re the type of buffoon that gets food poisoning at the same restaurant but continues to go back because they keep giving you discount vouchers.


Bit ordinary to attack someone because they feel it’s a good deal. They have as much right to vote one way as you do another.

To say certain people are ruining for the f/o’s with 25/30 years left is silly. Most people there in whichever seat, probably still have 25/30 years left.

[43Inches]

I worry for the FO's who are going to spend 25-30 years in this company. A 248k base isn't that far away? It's miles away from the pay people should have, I would strongly suggest you work out pay per hour, if you're not shocked work it out for the FO's instead, it's a good time to start thinking collectively as a pilot ground.

I do find that statement interesting when the ink is still wet on the joining agreement where they signed on for such terms and conditions. Is there some evil empire behind the curtain that suddenly reduces the salary once you are hired or did they look at the big shiny jet and forget to check the fine print before jumping off the cliff?

It's noble to be looking for better conditions whenever possible, but to smack down an existing long term pilot who's happy where they are when you're a new hire is not going to make the flight deck a happy place.

[Lookleft]

For all the rubber neckers who want to know what the problems with Jetstar are look no further than clearice's post at #863. It represents the general consensus of what the main issues are. JQ management would also do well to look at that list.

[LostontheLOC]

I do find that statement interesting when the ink is still wet on the joining agreement where they signed on for such terms and conditions. Is there some evil empire behind the curtain that suddenly reduces the salary once you are hired or did they look at the big shiny jet and forget to check the fine print before jumping off the cliff?

It's noble to be looking for better conditions whenever possible, but to smack down an existing long term pilot who's happy where they are when you're a new hire is not going to make the flight deck a happy place.

Pretty much sums up the issue, "old pilot happy so everyone is happy", but respectfully this old pilot does not agree.

Post 863 strikes the issues quite nicely.

As stated, I would caution anyone to make their minds up before the finaly wording is released - that is directed at the pilot group, ALL JPF members, and especially people who say "I have spoken to the negotiating team", don't be foolish.

[GA Driver]

1. A lower EFA is okay, but it must be in a conjunction with an increase in base salary. I would accept the proposed pay in the agreement but at 60 hours.

Looking no further down the list (most of which I agree with) item 1 is going to be an issue and a pretty big one at that.
25% pay rise over the life of the agreement with 20% less work. I encourage and applaud optimism, but it’s an EBA not a fairytale.

Not having a crack, but do people think that is realistically achievable? I’m keen to see how exactly that’s even do-able…. Just not showing up for work for a few weeks is unlikely to achieve that, so what’s the plan to get it?

[cLeArIcE]

Looking no further down the list (most of which I agree with) item 1 is going to be an issue and a pretty big one at that.
25% pay rise over the life of the agreement with 20% less work. I encourage and applaud optimism, but it’s an EBA not a fairy tail.

Not having a crack, but do people think that is realistically achievable? I’m keen to see how exactly that’s even do-able…. Just not showing up for work for a few weeks is unlikely to achieve that, so what’s the plan to get it?
I acknowledge that, but we are so far behind everyone else any increase has to be substantial to even call it an increase. People asked What we want. That's what I want. I'm not saying we're going to get it. But we can do dam better than this deal.
Look, everyone will vote how they want. I actually think the EBA will get up. You keep a Hungry dog in a cage and feed it once a week it's hardly going to complain about getting an extra smacko for being a good boy.
I'm just... tierd. I'm tired of the lies and empty promises, I'm tired of feeling subhuman because I work for jetstar. I'm tired of beating my head against a brick wall every day I go to work. I'm sick of being the "magic man." (Didn't you know that I can magically fix every departments lack of resources, tell them how to do their jobs, catch all their mistakes and do my own job?) and, I'm tired of being tired...
So yes, I'm ready to face the consequences of a no vote. They want the agreement signed just as much as we do. They are rolling in cash and they need us. They can afford to lube up that pineapple before inserting it in me.

[TimmyTee]

How much is a JQ FO behind a VA FO (when comparing guaranteed income only/base salary)?

[43Inches]

Also have to consider PIA has to be approved, you can't just stop work or there can be severe penalties. That really needs to be discussed with reps as well, if you vote an agreement down that is already offering 25% what are the chances of actually getting PIA approval. Not saying you won't but it starts getting into territory that the company is negotiating but the pilots are not being realistic. That starts getting into the realm of proving you are not causing economic harm to said company and the economy for the hell of it.

Again not against it, but you need to really understand where you stand if pushing for big gains and holding to it, I doubt it will be an easy road. JQ getting big gains is good for everybody, but you may have to do it over successive EBAs.

I'm just... tierd. I'm tired of the lies and empty promises, I'm tired of feeling subhuman because I work for jetstar. I'm tired of beating my head against a brick wall every day I go to work. I'm sick of being the "magic man." (Didn't you know that I can magically fix every departments lack of resources, tell them how to do their jobs, catch all their mistakes and do my own job?) and, I'm tired of being tired...

I do feel for you, but the whole premise JQ was started on was exactly what you are describing, running on fumes with everyone maxed out so there's no fat is what a low cost carrier is about. The real MO for these operations is that they don't want people to stick around, just have enough that do and keep getting more from the vine on their way up the system. What you are wanting to do is change the nature of the company itself, I doubt that will happen. Any Exec is going to tell you that you are important and valued, behind the eyes they just see you as a cost factor and another monkey in the line up spoiling their outcomes. That is the beast you are fighting.

[cLeArIcE]

Also have to consider PIA has to be approved, you can't just stop work or there can be severe penalties. That really needs to be discussed with reps as well, if you vote an agreement down that is already offering 25% what are the chances of actually getting PIA approval. Not saying you won't but it starts getting into territory that the company is negotiating but the pilots are not being realistic. That starts getting into the realm of proving you are not causing economic harm to said company and the economy for the hell of it.

Again not against it, but you need to really understand where you stand if pushing for big gains and holding to it, I doubt it will be an easy road. JQ getting big gains is good for everybody, but you may have to do it over successive EBAs.



I do feel for you, but the whole premise JQ was started on was exactly what you are describing, running on fumes with everyone maxed out so there's no fat is what a low cost carrier is about. The real MO for these operations is that they don't want people to stick around, just have enough that do and keep getting more from the vine on their way up the system. What you are wanting to do is change the nature of the company itself, I doubt that will happen. Any Exec is going to tell you that you are important and valued, behind the eyes they just see you as a cost factor and another monkey in the line up spoiling their outcomes. That is the beast you are fighting.
All valid points mate. I agree with you that it will need to be done over successive EBAs etc. But that 25% gain was not out of the goodness of their heart. They basically had no choice. That's how terrible our current agreement is.
As for not wanting people to stick around, we don't have enough crew as it is. How many FOs have interviewed for QF in the last month or two? A lot.. They are all happy to go be SOs rather than stay at jetstar. Some are probably not far Off widebody FO or captains spot. What does that tell you?
They might not care if people stick around but I don't know where these extra crew are going to come from. Lot's of aircraft on the way.

[Gunner747400]

As someone from the outside looking in, can someone explain where the 25% pay rise on the base salary is coming from, if all they are offering is a 3% per year increase (in line with the QF wages policy)?

Or is it just like EFA where the pay rise is significantly inflated after aligning with the pilot award (i.e. minimum wage)

[GA Driver]

Or is it just like EFA where the pay rise is significantly inflated after aligning with the pilot award (i.e. minimum wage)

Yes that’s a large part of it.
I was incorrect anyway, it isn’t 25% it’s 22.8% as has already been mentioned.
Last pay rise was back in 2018, a few years at 0% then a few years of 3% then another 3 years (life of the agreement) at 3%

[43Inches]

All valid points mate. I agree with you that it will need to be done over successive EBAs etc. But that 25% gain was not out of the goodness of their heart. They basically had no choice. That's how terrible our current agreement is.
As for not wanting people to stick around, we don't have enough crew as it is. How many FOs have interviewed for QF in the last month or two? A lot.. They are all happy to go be SOs rather than stay at jetstar. Some are probably not far Off widebody FO or captains spot. What does that tell you?
They might not care if people stick around but I don't know where these extra crew are going to come from. Lot's of aircraft on the way.

Nothing I disagree with, but you are fighting a monster that's stuck in a 1980s method of thinking they can screw down wages, they were born to drive a wedge in the employee market, now they don't have the supply anymore and its going to take serious restructuring to change the mindset. Some will send the company broke from lack of crew before admitting they need to pay more, offer better conditions and be more selective so that those they do pay more are actually right for the job. JQ is going to have to work out what it wants to be to the market, especially if Rex (very unlikely) decide they want to offer better conditions as they expand the jet fleet, but who knows the bottom feeders are going to have to compete for what few experienced pilots there are or not be bottom feeders anymore.

[cLeArIcE]

Nothing I disagree with, but you are fighting a monster that's stuck in a 1980s method of thinking they can screw down wages, they were born to drive a wedge in the employee market, now they don't have the supply anymore and its going to take serious restructuring to change the mindset. Some will send the company broke from lack of crew before admitting they need to pay more, offer better conditions and be more selective so that those they do pay more are actually right for the job. JQ is going to have to work out what it wants to be to the market, especially if Rex (very unlikely) decide they want to offer better conditions as they expand the jet fleet, but who knows the bottom feeders are going to have to compete for what few experienced pilots there are or not be bottom feeders anymore.
We have to try though. What's the alternative? Just roll over and say thank you sir may I have another?
Every little victory, every little step in the right direction all adds up. This new agreement is hardly that.
Just hope I can find a way out of this hell hole soon enough.

[tossbag]

The young blokes going to the regionals in the US will be paid more than you fellas soon.

[non_state_actor]

The young blokes going to the regionals in the US will be paid more than you fellas soon.

Breeze and Spirit airlines in the US already pay more in Australian dollars. That's before you even consider cost of living and taxes.

[ANstar]

As much As I don't like this deal (some things are okay, doesn't go far enough) and the constant bickering between the unions frustrates the hell out of me, I do feel a bit sorry for both unions. Do not underestimate how much hatred and anger there is amongst the pilot group for JQ. This is not just frustration or a dislike of a few management characters etc, this is 100% pure hatred for the company. They feel over worked, under paid, not respected anywhere near their pears at QF or link and they have had enough. There is zero good will left.

Unfortunately for the AFAP (did they not read the room?) Some of that is now being directed at them. This agreement does not match the expectations of many. They are upset and are voicing that. But, it was always going to be difficult to get their message across the rage and hatred.

​​​​​

IF you hate it so much why don't you move to another carrier?

[tossbag]

You know why he doesn't move to another carrier, probably for the same reason you wouldn't.

[Gunner747400]

The young blokes going to the regionals in the US will be paid more than you fellas soon.
​​​​​
Breeze and Spirit airlines in the US already pay more in Australian dollars. That's before you even consider cost of living and taxes.

All the regionals too are already paying more than JQ when converted to dollyradoos.

Brand new FO, $90/hr with a min guarantee of 75hrs even on a full reserve roster. 81k USD = 128k AUD.

[tossbag]

And the rest, ain't no sign on bonuses or retention bonuses or captains pay when you have the hours, not while you wait 15 years for an upgrade. $15 dollars a gallon in Aus, $4 in the US, beer, milk, bread, rent.........

[havick]

The young blokes going to the regionals in the US will be paid more than you fellas soon.

Soon - Are currently

[tossbag]

I had to build up, to the crescendo. There's more to come. Like people on the dole in Australia soon being on more than a jetstar captain.

[tossbag]

Australian pilots will be moving to South Africa, for better standard of living and better paid pilot jobs.

[non_state_actor]

You know why he doesn't move to another carrier, probably for the same reason you wouldn't.

And that is the issue in Australia. Noone actually leaves. Until that happens at scale, management will keep on calling our bluff.

[cLeArIcE]

IF you hate it so much why don't you move to another carrier?
Ah yes, the old if you don't like it, leave mentality. I'm working on it but there is a balance of things to consider as you well know. Maybe I do or I don't. Doesn't matter, I still want things to be better for everyone whether I'm here or not.
It's not Just me, pretty obvious on here, telegram and the line how unhappy people are. Should they Just leave too?
If your background is reflected in your username you could most likely make a lot of people's life happier by just retiring.

[GA Driver]

Ah yes, the old if you don't like it, leave mentality. I'm working on it but there is a balance of things to consider as you well know. Maybe I do or I don't. Doesn't matter, I still want things to be better for everyone whether I'm here or not.
It's not Just me, pretty obvious on here, telegram and the line how unhappy people are. Should they Just leave too?
If your background is reflected in your username you could most likely make a lot of people's life happier by just retiring.

No need to go if it suits you mate, we are all on the same side even though this forum may say otherwise. I think you’ll find most people are in agreement about improving things, it’s just a slooooow process that’s a forever battle with this mob.

[slice]

Just wondering, over here at team Bain there is a steady trickle of crew going mainly to Atlas and National Cargo in the US, and also supposed to be around 50 or so on Qantas hold file. Plus a very large number have elected not to return off the inactive list(as they have gone right through the list of several hundred). Crew are totally fed up with more or less the same crap as at Jetstar (rostering, big reduction in base pay, general flt ops incompetence). Are any Jetstar crew heading to the US (or other overseas employers) ?

[RealSatoshi]

Annual CPI inflation hits 7.3%, highest since 1990 - NCA NewsWire (26 October 2022)

Let's not forget that 3% is a good deal...Cough :\
In the real world, just the last two quarters of 2022 has already eaten that 3% plus another 0.6% on top of that - consider the last three quarters and the figure balloons to 2.7% on top of the 3% already destroyed.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1494x1154/screenshot_2022_10_26_at_09_43_39_709ecf7f0deb4e0ccd784ec0e4 bfd115bc2fd554.png

[SHVC]

Are any Jetstar crew heading to the US (or other overseas employers) ?

Yes! Rumor has it a certain flight ops manager has more than 50 request for log book cert and references.

[RealSatoshi]

Whenever you're told that you're not worth more...remember this:

2021 CEO Total Compensation (USD) as a function of Company Market Cap
0.0787% ----> Qantas : $5.577 Million @ $7.089 Billion Market Cap

0.0780% ----> American Airlines : $7.24 Million @ $9.287 Billion Market Cap
0.0729% ----> United Airlines : $9.85 Million @ $13.52 Billion Market Cap
0.0583% ----> Alaska Airlines : $3.21 Million @ $5.506 Billion Market Cap
0.0570% ----> Delta Airlines : $12.4 Million @ $21.74 Billion Market Cap
0.0282% ----> Southwest : $5.8 Million @ $20.54 Billion Market Cap

0.0040% ----> Apple : $98 Million @ $2.448 Trillion Market Cap
0.0027% ----> Microsoft : $49.858 Million @ $1.869 Trillion Market Cap
0.0005% ----> Google : $6.32 Million @ $1.365 Trillion Market Cap

[What The]

I can’t believe you are entertaining the idea of a retrospective 2 year pay freeze.
We all took a 2 year stand down to save the company.
Joyce has said we are now looking at record profits.
There is zero need for a pay freeze.

[Keith Myath]

For all the rubber neckers who want to know what the problems with Jetstar are look no further than clearice's post at #863. It represents the general consensus of what the main issues are. JQ management would also do well to look at that list.


You still haven't answered my questions, but you have joined the clearice admiration society:

Lookleft, do you even work for Jetstar?

What is it you want?

What are you going to do to get it?

[Keith Myath]

I can’t believe you are entertaining the idea of a retrospective 2 year pay freeze.
We all took a 2 year stand down to save the company.
Joyce has said we are now looking at record profits.
There is zero need for a pay freeze.

Everyone in the Qantas group is taking a 2 year pay freeze. Yours will start next year. If you Qantas pilots want to batten down the hatches and get stuck in, fill your boots. If you break the wages policy, it flows through to us. So go hard.

[Red69]

I reckon you’d be silly to vote in an agreement before labours multi employer bargaining kicks in. The airlines are fearful of this change as there is a huge shift in power. Go PIA, let the process drag on and get the best deal you can. Aim for the stars as there has never been a better time to ask for what you’re worth. People resigning, flights cancelled, bad publicity. Jetstar pilots are worth just as much as QF mainline pilots. Fight for it.

[Colonel_Klink]

I can’t believe you are entertaining the idea of a retrospective 2 year pay freeze.
We all took a 2 year stand down to save the company.
Joyce has said we are now looking at record profits.
There is zero need for a pay freeze.

This is actually quite a fair point….

The whole premise of the QF wages policy should have been challenged prior to COVID - unfortunately none of the pilot groups (or other employee groups!) that had the chance took the challenge up to QF IR and called BS.

But of all the agreements since QF IR came up with this policy that seems to be made up on the whim of Joyce, this JQ proposal looks to be the greatest in terms of monetary gains. The increase of 20 odd percent to base salary over the life of the agreement is not something to be sneezed at. That is a considerable gain.

[Beer Baron]

But of all the agreements since QF IR came up with this policy that seems to be made up on the whim of Joyce, this JQ proposal looks to be the greatest in terms of monetary gains. The increase of 20 odd percent to base salary over the life of the agreement is not something to be sneezed at.
Is it so different from EFA? They voted down a crap offer and then QF stuck on an extra 5% (I think) to get them up to Award wages and then applied the wage policy.
Sounds similar to this deal with the BOOT allowance.
I’ve not read the fine details of either EA so I am happy to be corrected.

[EltonsFavouriteCEO]

I can’t believe you are entertaining the idea of a retrospective 2 year pay freeze.
We all took a 2 year stand down to save the company.
Joyce has said we are now looking at record profits.
There is zero need for a pay freeze.

This, is spot on! Qantas group employees are being taken for mugs. Now is the time to hold your head high and fight for decent wage outcomes. Forget bribe bonuses. Forget the backpay. They go into your account and once spent, are never seen again. It's an on-going improvement on your base pay that you want. I don't know about about other employee groups, but there is a world wide shortage of engineers. I'm hearing sections of Qantas engineering are bleeding manpower at a rate never seen before and that some of the dubious labour hire suppliers are fishing around for staff in SE Asia but the wage vs cost of living sums in moving to Australia do not add up!

[ManillaChillaDilla]

In the end I guess its fairly simple.

If you dont feel that you are worthy of the conditions, respect and remuneration offered to others within the group, Vote Yes.

If you are happy voting to take a pay freeze after nearly 2 years of not being paid whilst your managers and counterparts in other entities were, Vote Yes.

If lifestyle and quality time away from work doesnt matter to you, Vote Yes.

If you have gorged on the Kool-aid and believe that because you work for a low cost carrier you are are a low cost person and not worthy of respect, Vote Yes.

Bring on the Vote.

MCD

[Lookleft]

You still haven't answered my questions, but you have joined the clearice admiration society:

Lookleft, do you even work for Jetstar?

What is it you want?

What are you going to do to get it?

And WTFAY to be demanding answers or are you the head of the STASI from the Always Failing Australian Pilots? If I am living rent free in your head then your IQ might be raised a few points but look at others who are posting and the level of anger with the proposal and the company. If you genuinely have to ask the question as to who I work for then you are:

a. Too stupid to find out
b. Too lazy to find out
c. Too ignorant to find out
d. All of the above

If you get your 50%+1 yes vote then its BAU at Jetstar and the pilots can expect to be treated with the usual disdain and contempt from all parts of the Company. If it is a no vote then you and your cohort will be exposed for the charlatans that you are.

[RealSatoshi]

If you have gorged on the Kool-aid and believe that because you work for a low cost carrier you are are a low cost person and not worthy of respect, Vote Yes.
100% Correct!

The Chief Pilot of a very successful international Low Cost Carrier once said to me: "Low Cost STOPS outside the Flight Deck Door"
Does the Jetstar CEO earn a Low Cost salary - No, he is the second highest earner in the Qantas Group...

[FOI]

100% Correct!

The Chief Pilot of a very successful international Low Cost Carrier once said to me: "Low Cost STOPS outside the Flight Deck Door"
Does the Jetstar CEO earn a Low Cost salary - No, he is the second highest earner in the Qantas Group...

So which side of the philosophical door dividing low cost and not-low-cost were the Pilots? That Chief Pilot was a true prophet!

CEO of second largest business in the Group being the second largest “earner” in the Group? I’m shocked! (even if it is true). At any rate, what’s that got to do with us, this is a business, we’re not CEO’s..

i wonder just how more ridiculous some of this could sound! 😆

[FOI]

And WTFAY to be demanding answers or are you the head of the STASI from the Always Failing Australian Pilots? If I am living rent free in your head then your IQ might be raised a few points but look at others who are posting and the level of anger with the proposal and the company. If you genuinely have to ask the question as to who I work for then you are:

a. Too stupid to find out
b. Too lazy to find out
c. Too ignorant to find out
d. All of the above

If you get your 50%+1 yes vote then its BAU at Jetstar and the pilots can expect to be treated with the usual disdain and contempt from all parts of the Company. If it is a no vote then you and your cohort will be exposed for the charlatans that you are.

Your bitterness is definitely irrational, yet it’s making me feel so much better about my life the more I read, so please carry on. Some “professional pilots” on here really are hilarious, they simply have to be kidding.

[FOI]

​​​​​


All the regionals too are already paying more than JQ when converted to dollyradoos.

Brand new FO, $90/hr with a min guarantee of 75hrs even on a full reserve roster. 81k USD = 128k AUD.

Who’s stopping anyone from pursuit of their utopia? Living a life of being subject to a visa in a country that goes boom to bust in a heartbeat, goes to war regularly, where the public carry guns around and kind of importantly.. where you’ll be arseholed out of there in a flash as soon as the economy turns. Think their unions will help you? No mate, they don’t want you there, and that will be brutally apparent more often than not.

If the perception of a few more bucks floats your boat in a US regional airline, catch you later! Don't just threaten it; show some stones, drop your precious seniority number and safe life in Australia and give it a go legends!

[FOI]

In the end I guess its fairly simple.

If you dont feel that you are worthy of the conditions, respect and remuneration offered to others within the group, Vote Yes.

If you are happy voting to take a pay freeze after nearly 2 years of not being paid whilst your managers and counterparts in other entities were, Vote Yes.

If lifestyle and quality time away from work doesnt matter to you, Vote Yes.

If you have gorged on the Kool-aid and believe that because you work for a low cost carrier you are are a low cost person and not worthy of respect, Vote Yes.

Bring on the Vote.

MCD

You’re right, it is simple MCD:

1. If you’re an adult and realise that there’s only a certain number of airline pilot jobs spread over different companies, all with different business models, and you’re lucky enough to have one of those jobs in this small country, and that job was about to give you a 20%+ payrise by mid 2025, with 12% straight up, you’d vote YES,

2. If you realise that in fact being on an EBA where you have increasing choices regarding your work arrangements, like part-time, full-time, carers lines, highline, no highline, financial protection when delayed into a DDO, increases in all allowances, then you’d vote YES,

3. If you consider the companies investment in additional state of the art new aircraft (not B737 MAX’s either..), diversity in network, quick promotions (particularly when compared to QF, whose backyard we feel compelled to peer into constantly), growth and prosperity that leads to a long career and stable employment, you’d vote YES,

4. If you recognise improvements in the leave system in terms of leave available and access to six weeks + a year, you’d vote YES.

However, if you’re just angry, don’t really know why, believe everything’s a conspiracy, the company - your employer, is making a specific project out of ruining your life by making you come to work, whilst it pays your mortgage and puts your kids through school and funds a far better retirement prospect than most of the population. Then I guess you have to vote NO.

As the PPrune grandstanding prophet MCD has put it, “bring on the vote”.

[das Uber Soldat]

1. If you’re an adult and realise that there’s only a certain number of airline pilot jobs spread over different companies, all with different business models, and you’re lucky enough to have one of those jobs in this small country, and that job was about to give you a 20%+ payrise by mid 2025, with 12% straight up, you’d vote YES,
Does the pay rise exceed inflation? If it doesn't, its a pay cut. Why am I 'lucky' to get a pay cut?

2. If you realise that in fact being on an EBA where you have increasing choices regarding your work arrangements, like part-time, full-time, carers lines, highline, no highline, financial protection when delayed into a DDO, increases in all allowances, then you’d vote YES,
Small fixes. You seem to argue that any improvement must equate to total agreement with the whole offer. No. Oddly you've left out the fact we're paying for these minor improvements with concessions to the company.

3. If you consider the companies investment in additional state of the art new aircraft (not B737 MAX’s either..), diversity in network, quick promotions (particularly when compared to QF, whose backyard we feel compelled to peer into constantly), growth and prosperity that leads to a long career and stable employment, you’d vote YES,
None of that has anything to do with this rubbish offer.

4. If you recognise improvements in the leave system in terms of leave available and access to six weeks + a year, you’d vote YES.
The leave system is garbage. Now its slightly, slightly less garbage. Hooray, lets take a career long **** sandwich because they offer me 6 weeks of leave a year they're legally required to regardless.

However, if you’re just angry, don’t really know why,
All of us know very well why we're angry.

[LostontheLOC]

You’re right, it is simple FOI:

1. If you’re a fool and don't realise that there’s the worldnis a significantly bigger than Australian aviation and that job was about to give you a 20%+ payrise by mid 2025 which is FAR below the industry average locally and internationally, which still doesn't make way for the 2015 pay freeze which was promised to be recovered and only given that much because it's directed by the award, you’d vote YES,


2. If you realise that in fact being on an EBA where you don't have easy access to different arrangements, Flexi and carers lines, highline which is unreasonable as a level 2/3 FO, financial protection when delayed into a DDO at half rate and still no protection of your DDO because **** you all, the minimum increases in all allowances because again it's derived off what the minimum requirement, then you’d vote YES,


3. If you consider the companies investment in additional state of the art new aircraft where you might get a command in 8-10 years and you will never see the left seat of a wide body, where compared to QF with turn over and resignations you will get a WB command with in 16-18 years making it a feasible and broad range work environment compared to max overnights and paxing, no protections with rosters and no duty travel protection and a bidding system that's broken and a guaranteed 75.1 hours a month to make you take 4 standby days, you’d vote YES,


4. If you recognise the leave system has been broken for decades and now the company will make you take time off when you don't want it, you’d vote YES. However, if you’re sick of putting out fires every day you go into work because of lack of support, resources and manpower, want a better work life balance and a lower EFA, better protections for your work, duty travel, roster, OT and DDO's, hotels and transport standards and a cultural shift then potentially this isn't the deal for you.

Weigh up the priorities, read the document, don't believe anything that's not in writing and dismiss "promises"..

FOI you're not helping anyone when you spread misinformation like you are.

[das Uber Soldat]

FOI you're not helping anyone when you spread misinformation like you are.
Oh I think he's helping someone.

[RealSatoshi]

So which side of the philosophical door dividing low cost and not-low-cost were the Pilots? That Chief Pilot was a true prophet!
The Pilots were on the not-low-cost side thus on par with Mainline - same profession / same expertise / same skills - you must be Shocked now, right?
CEO of second largest business in the Group being the second largest “earner” in the Group? I’m shocked! (even if it is true). At any rate, what’s that got to do with us, this is a business, we’re not CEO’s
Oh, so in your book CEO's 'deserve' parity but A320 and B787 Pilots don't... I've never ever heard my CEO friend say that he should take less because he is so far ahead of the general population - why are you promoting this dumbing down of the profession?
If you’re an adult and realise that there’s only a certain number of airline pilot jobs spread over different companies, all with different business models, and you’re lucky enough to have one of those jobs in this small country, and that job was about to give you a 20%+ payrise by mid 2025, with 12% straight up, you’d vote YES,
So if you don't pay someone what you owe for a couple of years and then suddenly you run out of excuses and have to pay up, does that mean your are suddenly paying them more, or are you just settling your debts...?

[havick]

Who’s stopping anyone from pursuit of their utopia? Living a life of being subject to a visa in a country that goes boom to bust in a heartbeat, goes to war regularly, where the public carry guns around and kind of importantly.. where you’ll be arseholed out of there in a flash as soon as the economy turns. Think their unions will help you? No mate, they don’t want you there, and that will be brutally apparent more often than not.

If the perception of a few more bucks floats your boat in a US regional airline, catch you later! Don't just threaten it; show some stones, drop your precious seniority number and safe life in Australia and give it a go legends!

HHahhaahahahaahahahahaaha, this has to be the dumbest statement I’ve ever heard.

how many E3 pilots were sent home to Australia during covid?

how many pilots at virgin and Qantas were stood down, and out of seniority?

If you’re trying to scaremonger, it would be advised if you backed it up with solid facts.

Interestingly the E3 pilots in the US faired wayy better, and were better looked after than pretty much anyone working/flying in Australia.

[ManillaChillaDilla]

FOI, once again thanks form the comedy routine.

You seem heavily invested in this EA getting up at the expence of most others.

I would happily vote for it if I thought it was a reasonable deal that had something for everyone. Sadly however, its not.

Its probably worth remembering, the pilot group has the final say. Not your tin pot union. No matter how you spin it or treat your members, we have the final say.

This has been beautifully illustrated with the deposing of the architect of this EA. When is he leaving again?

The credibility vortex is a difficult space for a union already struggling with a lack of tangible results for its members over a long period of time.

I guess that explains your attitude towards others. I understand your frustration but cant endorse your carry on. It is certainly an eye opener. I think I am wasting me union fees.

Lets vote .

MCD

[FOI]

HHahhaahahahaahahahahaaha, this has to be the dumbest statement I’ve ever heard.

how many E3 pilots were sent home to Australia during covid?

how many pilots at virgin and Qantas were stood down, and out of seniority?

If you’re trying to scaremonger, it would be advised if you backed it up with solid facts.

Interestingly the E3 pilots in the US faired wayy better, and were better looked after than pretty much anyone working/flying in Australia.

Go for it then! No-ones trying to talk you out of it. I’m sure you’ll be embraced over there!

[FOI]

FOI, once again thanks form the comedy routine.

You seem heavily invested in this EA getting up at the expence of most others.

I would happily vote for it if I thought it was a reasonable deal that had something for everyone. Sadly however, its not.

Its probably worth remembering, the pilot group has the final say. Not your tin pot union. No matter how you spin it or treat your members, we have the final say.

This has been beautifully illustrated with the deposing of the architect of this EA. When is he leaving again?

The credibility vortex is a difficult space for a union already struggling with a lack of tangible results for its members over a long period of time.

I guess that explains your attitude towards others. I understand your frustration but cant endorse your carry on. It is certainly an eye opener. I think I am wasting me union fees.

Lets vote .

MCD

i see your vulnerability MCD. Too focused on the players and not the issue. Pathetic.

20 + % GET REAL

[havick]

Go for it then! No-ones trying to talk you out of it. I’m sure you’ll be embraced over there!

I’ve been in the US for 6 years now. Life is great thanks.

[Gunner747400]

20 + % GET REAL

Stop quoting this figure like it actually means something significant.

The real pay rise is NOWHERE near 20%.

[ManillaChillaDilla]

The issue is very much the players involved.

No wonder the rank and file members are so fed up with this organisation and its divisive tactics.

Dont forget, if you are charging people membership fees, the AFAP is a service provider. If you dont provide the service your customers want, youve got a BIG problem.

5 Years to get to this point? Really???


MCD

[EXEK1996]

Stop quoting this figure like it actually means something significant.

The real pay rise is NOWHERE near 20%.

Correct....as a CCB its north of 30% by 2025, even more depending on how much you work. The 787 people will do even better with the Highline allowance changes and their multi day trips.

Do your own sums but what the AFAP have delivered is way more than I thought possible particularly given the wages policy.

Each to their own of course but I am voting YES and will happily take the extra 55K min per year and live in Oz.

[Gunner747400]

Correct....as a CCB its north of 30% by 2025, even more depending on how much you work. The 787 people will do even better with the Highline allowance changes and their multi day trips.

Do your own sums but what the AFAP have delivered is way more than I thought possible particularly given the wages policy.

Each to their own of course but I am voting YES and will happily take the extra 55K min per year and live in Oz.
Ah yes, and if you work every day off you have, you will end up with 50% more.

What a horsesh*t, moot argument.

[GA Driver]

Stop quoting this figure like it actually means something significant.

The real pay rise is NOWHERE near 20%.


You sure about that??

[Gunner747400]

You sure about that??
So I guess according to your logic, we will look at wages in the 1970's, compare them to now, and call of that increase a real 'pay rise'?

Give me a break.

[GA Driver]

It really doesn’t need all the emotion.

Compare current wage with what’s on offer….

Divide increase from
current wage by original= increase in %. Pretty simple.

[Roller Merlin]

Paxed on duty recently after nil hotel booking nor transport booked for me on arrival. Been allocated a middle seat in row of four. Min rest then operated again early next morning. These are the issues that need to be fixed to warrant considering a YES vote.

[RealSatoshi]

Divide increase from current wage by original= increase in %. Pretty simple.
Increase from Current Wage / (Original Wage + What should've been added over the last couple of years if you were NOT Shafted) = More Accurate

[GA Driver]

Increase from Current Wage / (Original Wage + What should've been added over the last couple of years if you were NOT Shafted) = More Accurate

Sure, I agree with you.
But I asked this question a few posts back (not at you obviously) what are you wanting? Realistically?

The above post regarding hotels and transport, the current EBA ALREADY has stipulations in the agreement and they STILL don’t follow it. It will take someone with some balls to take them to fair work over it. No one’s bothered as yet and that includes me. I have serious doubts that voting no to an EBA is going to cure all hotel and transport issues.
I’ve bought it up with my manager and zero was done about it so I don’t bother doing those duties, because I CBF with those headaches mentioned. I leave it to the guys chasing the WDO’s and there seems to be plenty on those patterns…..

So back to issue, what would be an acceptable pay rise amongst everything else on offer?

[cLeArIcE]

Paxed on duty recently after nil hotel booking nor transport booked for me on arrival. Been allocated a middle seat in row of four. Min rest then operated again early next morning. These are the issues that need to be fixed to warrant considering a YES vote.
Sounds "fatiguing"
Honestly if the company can't respect you enough to not give you a middle seat (in the least) then what do They expect.

[ManillaChillaDilla]

Sure, I agree with you.
But I asked this question a few posts back (not at you obviously) what are you wanting? Realistically?

The above post regarding hotels and transport, the current EBA ALREADY has stipulations in the agreement and they STILL don’t follow it. It will take someone with some balls to take them to fair work over it. No one’s bothered as yet and that includes me. I have serious doubts that voting no to an EBA is going to cure all hotel and transport issues.
I’ve bought it up with my manager and zero was done about it so I don’t bother doing those duties, because I CBF with those headaches mentioned. I leave it to the guys chasing the WDO’s and there seems to be plenty on those patterns…..

So back to issue, what would be an acceptable pay rise amongst everything else on offer?

Considering there has been no pay rises for at least 4 years, in theory you could use 12% loss incurred plus that little thing about not being payed at all for 2 years.

That being the case, its easily argued that the current offer is really where we should have been as a starting point for negotiations for the current EA.

To bring the pilot group up to a realistic point of pay ( given the other conditions involved or lack thereof ) about another 10 to 15% would be reasonable. On top of what has been " negotiated ".

I guess the " special guests " at the roadshows can explain why we arent worth what others in the industry are.

Should be VERY interesting indeed.

MCD

[Willie Nelson]

It may seem like an aside but hear me out. I listened to an interesting discussion on "The Money" the other day:

https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/themoney/delivering-a-budget-during-difficult-times/14090348

This discussed central banks worldwide dropping historically low inflation targets of old such as the 2-3% band of the RBA in part, because policymakers are working against them (monetary policy versus fiscal stimulus) with ever increasing spending and in part, becase it leaves no lever left to pull when interest rates go to zero as they did. Governments are now also looking for inflation to cure the debt problem, which it can do to a large degree.

As it happens, the new Labor government, with bipartisan support, is conucting a root and branch review of the RBA with a view to changing their primary objective from inflation targeting to "other measures". It would not be at all surprising to find that inflation ends up remaining higher than 3% for the forseeable future in part due to continued growth in both government and consumer spending and in part due to to a new ambit for the RBA.

That may leave Jetstar's "attractive" offer of a to year wage freeze + statutory obligations + 3% looking a little less attractive.

I'll be interested to hear what advocates will say for this deal in public. I'm not particualrly interested in the clause "If they get 5%, we want it too". That sounds like a recipe for getting squat.

[FOI]

You’re right, it is simple FOI:

1. If you’re a fool and don't realise that there’s the worldnis a significantly bigger than Australian aviation and that job was about to give you a 20%+ payrise by mid 2025 which is FAR below the industry average locally and internationally, which still doesn't make way for the 2015 pay freeze which was promised to be recovered and only given that much because it's directed by the award, you’d vote YES,


2. If you realise that in fact being on an EBA where you don't have easy access to different arrangements, Flexi and carers lines, highline which is unreasonable as a level 2/3 FO, financial protection when delayed into a DDO at half rate and still no protection of your DDO because **** you all, the minimum increases in all allowances because again it's derived off what the minimum requirement, then you’d vote YES,


3. If you consider the companies investment in additional state of the art new aircraft where you might get a command in 8-10 years and you will never see the left seat of a wide body, where compared to QF with turn over and resignations you will get a WB command with in 16-18 years making it a feasible and broad range work environment compared to max overnights and paxing, no protections with rosters and no duty travel protection and a bidding system that's broken and a guaranteed 75.1 hours a month to make you take 4 standby days, you’d vote YES,


4. If you recognise the leave system has been broken for decades and now the company will make you take time off when you don't want it, you’d vote YES. However, if you’re sick of putting out fires every day you go into work because of lack of support, resources and manpower, want a better work life balance and a lower EFA, better protections for your work, duty travel, roster, OT and DDO's, hotels and transport standards and a cultural shift then potentially this isn't the deal for you.

Weigh up the priorities, read the document, don't believe anything that's not in writing and dismiss "promises"..

FOI you're not helping anyone when you spread misinformation like you are.

Ok, so by going through all your points one by one, I ascertain that you just want a lot more money without the inconvenience of the working for a living bit.

And it certainly isn’t me spreading misinformation. The only people I’m “not helping” are those like yourself that are intent on self destruction and bringing all of us down with your miserable outlooks on life.

If Qantas and your match box calculation theorem is correct and a left seat of one of their wide body aircraft in 16 years is feasible, then apply, pass their tests, join the queue and start the moaning process over there.

[FOI]

Considering there has been no pay rises for at least 4 years, in theory you could use 12% loss incurred plus that little thing about not being payed at all for 2 years.

That being the case, its easily argued that the current offer is really where we should have been as a starting point for negotiations for the current EA.

To bring the pilot group up to a realistic point of pay ( given the other conditions involved or lack thereof ) about another 10 to 15% would be reasonable. On top of what has been " negotiated ".

I guess the " special guests " at the roadshows can explain why we arent worth what others in the industry are.

Should be VERY interesting indeed.

MCD

Yeah, we knocked 3% pay increases back in 2019 and took PIA remember.

And to address the “special guests can explain why we aren’t worth what others in the industry are” typically idiotic statement: By my calculations, and to compare apples with apples, let’s focus on Australian jet high capacity operations:

You will be paid significantly more than:
1. National Jet System Pilots (B717 soon A220)
2. Network Aviation Pilots (F100 and A320)
4. Rex Pilots (B737)
5. Alliance Pilots (F70/100 and E190)
6. Cobham Pilots (E190)
7. Airnorth Pilots (E170/E190)
8. Express Freighters Pilots (B737/A321)
9. Virgin Australia Regional Pilots (F100/A320)
9. And arguably Virgin Australia Pilots (B737)

We did once compare ourselves to Tigerair when they received a 16% uplift, inconveniently they went broke. Then we tried Virgin, inconveniently they went broke and got rescued. So now we focus on the national carrier, because that’s all that’s left that’s perceived as getting something better than us?

[LostontheLOC]

Ok, so by going through all your points one by one, I ascertain that you just want a lot more money without the inconvenience of the working for a living bit.

And it certainly isn’t me spreading misinformation. The only people I’m “not helping” are those like yourself that are intent on self destruction and bringing all of us down with your miserable outlooks on life.

If Qantas and your match box calculation theorem is correct and a left seat of one of their wide body aircraft in 16 years is feasible, then apply, pass their tests, join the queue and start the moaning process over there.

​​​​There's not much to the substance you're bring to this conversation.

The base money isn't too far off, but it is lower than a threshold I personally would accept, I would like a significant rewrite of the protections around lifestyle - Your assumption is wrong.

Majority of the points you made are factually incorrect, hence why myself and others have corrected your misinformation - original statement stands, stop spreading misinformation, you're not helping anyone.

"If you don't like it, leave" rhetoric seems to be your go to. I'd rather make this employer a better place to work for everyone.

The pilot base has shown quite strongly that they can survive hardship from the last EA through to covid and now the QF IR bullying, if that take the pilot base to vote no and go to PIA then so be it, but again FOI, I would caution your decision before you read the, ironically delayed document.

[FOI]

​​​​There's not much to the substance you're bring to this conversation.

The base money isn't too far off, but it is lower than a threshold I personally would accept, I would like a significant rewrite of the protections around lifestyle - Your assumption is wrong.

Majority of the points you made are factually incorrect, hence why myself and others have corrected your misinformation - original statement stands, stop spreading misinformation, you're not helping anyone.

"If you don't like it, leave" rhetoric seems to be your go to. I'd rather make this employer a better place to work for everyone.

The pilot base has shown quite strongly that they can survive hardship from the last EA through to covid and now the QF IR bullying, if that take the pilot base to vote no and go to PIA then so be it, but again FOI, I would caution your decision before you read the, ironically delayed document.

There is NOTHING factually incorrect. I bet you can’t even articulate what “lifestyle” is to you? Other than of course coming to work less, and having to put up with its inconveniences, whilst getting paid, under the rationale of some on here, MORE than 21% in salary alone than you do now.

It’s not astrophysics, I can add:

July 2021 3%
July 2022 3% (+ Award compliance)
July 2023 3%
July 2024 3%
July 2025 3%

= Minimum + 20% (BASE SALARY ALONE)

Highline - increase in full rates (min 10% over life of agreement) + a rate to be paid IN addition to your 100% being paid whilst operating at 50% from sign-off at layover until sign-on on layover

Increases to DTA/ODTA rates (14% - 18%)

Increase to EFA rates

Proper Carers lines - as I understand it there’ll be part/full-time options (lifestyle)

Increase to Star Days annually - 9 to 13 (lifestyle)

Increase to annual leave slot ability and improvements to priority system (lifestyle)

Unscheduled Overnight + Misconnections defined processes + remuneration compensation (lifestyle)

Single week annual leave access for Flexi-Line pilots (lifestyle)….

You basically have no idea what you’re talking about do you LOC?

And it’s not rhetorical the statements about leaving. Some on here bang on endlessly about how much better it is in the US (money wise at least). It’s a simple fact, if it’s the money down to the cent alone, who’s stopping you? They pay it there obviously because they have to, they offer visas to foreigners because they have to; you’re on a fixed term contract on a temporary visa, if that floats your boat then give it a go.

[Wear the Foxhat]

​​​​

The base money isn't too far off, but it is lower than a threshold I personally would accept, I would like a significant rewrite of the protections around lifestyle

I dunno about this lower threshold idea. It seems like a recipe for putting all the risk of losing flying hours back on me. Hands up how many times you’ve seen old mate turning up blowing snot because it’s the last day of the month and they don’t want to lose overtime – sure its “hayfever.” Or an aircraft goes u/s and hours are lost, or there are delays and hours are lost, or min rest gets infringed and hours are lost.

Sectors get cancelled all the time for just about any reason. I don’t want my pay dependant upon things running smoothly. Because I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but it’s a circus at the moment. Right now I’m rostered 75 hours, but I regularly only fly 60. It costs me nothing and I don’t turn up to work fatigued. If we have a lower threshold and our pay is dependent upon turning up, we will have pilots turning up fatigued to lock in EFA.

It’s not for me. I’ll happily stick with 75 hours, higher base pay and leave all the risk on the company. I don’t complain, I go fatigued. I still think the smart think to do is lock in a 23% increase to base pay. Negotiating further improvements sounds like at least another 6 months of no pay rises. I personally don't get too upset if I have to call fatigued, it's what is necessary to improve my lifestyle and it costs me nothing - or at least it doesn't while the threshold is so high. I'm still an enthusiastic YES.

[SHVC]

Ah yes the star day increase they will have to re write that whole clause. Currently you can only apply for two per month. Will it be 3 once a month in 12 or will they allow 3 or 4 in a one month period.

[The Banjo]

The reality is you will find few people earning our level of salary and having "a lifestyle". The company owns them 24/7 with demanding hours and corporate deadlines. Not sitting by the pool on a layover. Most of us have had a taste of reality during covid as a check and trainer stacking shelves at woolies etc. No responsibilty, great lifesytle but with a matching pay packet.
There are choices available in life.

[Clipster]

The reality is you will find few people earning our level of salary and having "a lifestyle". The company owns them 24/7 with demanding hours and corporate deadlines. Not sitting by the pool on a layover. Most of us have had a taste of reality during covid as a check and trainer stacking shelves at woolies etc. No responsibilty, great lifesytle but with a matching pay packet.
There are choices available in life.





And if you believe that, you’ll believe anything. :rolleyes:

[RealSatoshi]

It may seem like an aside but hear me out. I listened to an interesting discussion on "The Money" the other day:

https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/themoney/delivering-a-budget-during-difficult-times/14090348

This discussed central banks worldwide dropping historically low inflation targets of old such as the 2-3% band of the RBA in part, because policymakers are working against them (monetary policy versus fiscal stimulus) with ever increasing spending and in part, becase it leaves no lever left to pull when interest rates go to zero as they did. Governments are now also looking for inflation to cure the debt problem, which it can do to a large degree.

Actually, that is probably the most important statement on here to date - it is time % chasers start understanding 'The Game'.

Higher inflation reduces the real value of the government’s outstanding debt while increasing the tax burden on capital investment due to lack of inflation indexing. Increasing the current annual inflation target regime from 2 percent to 3 percent inflation reduces debt while lowering GDP.

Read the Penn Wharton University of Pennsylvania's full report here: https://budgetmodel.wharton.upenn.edu/issues/2021/10/21/can-inflation-offset-government-debt

In short, any newly signed EBA that DOES NOT include the term "CPI + (X)%" is the equivalent of longterm Financial Suicide - don't believe me, save this thread and lets review it in 5 years time :cool:

[FOI]

Actually, that is probably the most important statement on here to date - it is time % chasers start understanding 'The Game'.

Higher inflation reduces the real value of the government’s outstanding debt while increasing the tax burden on capital investment due to lack of inflation indexing. Increasing the current annual inflation target regime from 2 percent to 3 percent inflation reduces debt while lowering GDP.

Read the Penn Wharton University of Pennsylvania's full report here: https://budgetmodel.wharton.upenn.edu/issues/2021/10/21/can-inflation-offset-government-debt

In short, any newly signed EBA that DOES NOT include the term "CPI + (X)%" is the equivalent of longterm Financial Suicide - don't believe me, save this thread and lets review it in 5 years time :cool:

Here we go, Pilots, the internet, and finances….

[FOI]

Paxed on duty recently after nil hotel booking nor transport booked for me on arrival. Been allocated a middle seat in row of four. Min rest then operated again early next morning. These are the issues that need to be fixed to warrant considering a YES vote.

Don’t let operational frustrating nuisances post a COVID disaster influence one of the most important employment votes of your career. Be rational, things day-to-day operationally will improve. It’s in no-ones interests for them not too. This stuff is happening everywhere.

[das Uber Soldat]

Here we go, Pilots, the internet, and finances….
Is the eba a payrise in real terms or not. Simple question.

[Gear in transit]

The remuneration numbers all go up quite a bit since 2018. Does it compete with current inflation? Probably just, but who knows where the end of that dragon lies.
You'll have to be the judge of 'real terms.'

[PoppaJo]

Don’t let operational frustrating nuisances post a COVID disaster influence one of the most important employment votes of your career. Be rational, things day-to-day operationally will improve. It’s in no-ones interests for them not too. This stuff is happening everywhere.
I get your point, however I think some accountability being put on crewing/operations wouldn't hurt. One department that has slacked off significantly lately IMO.

[ANCDU]

Is the eba a payrise in real terms or not. Simple question.

With inflation over the years 2018 to 2021 equalling 7.23%, adding a very conservative 4%for 2022, that’s about 11.23% worth of inflation over that time since the last base pay increase. Putting in the EBA 6% for compliance plus 3% for 2021/2022 it’s up 10% on the base from 2018. Even with conservative figures the base is at least 1.23% below inflation on signing, then only 3% a year until 2025 which will no doubt be below the inflationary figures for a few years at least. So not a pay rise in real terms from that perspective.

That’s a very basic way of looking at it, but when you look at the fact that nearly all airline pilots except those in Qantas mainline are earning less than they were in the late 80’s it’s probably not a bad deal.

[tossbag]

mmmmm, how's getting paid less than the 80's a good deal?

[FOI]

mmmmm, how's getting paid less than the 80's a good deal?

If it were true, which it may well be, the fact airline pilot jobs (opportunities) have expanded exponentially with the advent of leisure / low cost models, legacy airline exclusiveness and associated pay/conditions may have gone down across the industry comparatively. There’s been no “A Scale” in Cathay Pacific for many years as one example.

But back to the point. In terms of “real” increases (which I take it is in comparison to Inflation over time), difficult to say as others have put it, this year it would be an increase by my reckoning, but no-one can predict the future in terms of inflation and wages policies. We wouldn’t necessarily want a wages policy to be rigidly pinned to inflation would we? It may work in our favour occasionally, but there are times it wouldn’t.

This does however appear to be an extraordinary uplift in one hit, considering the state of affairs overall. I can’t see it getting better, but could certainly see it decline if we knock it back (again). Lock it in I say.

[Gunner747400]

We wouldn’t necessarily want a wages policy to be rigidly pinned to inflation would we? It may work in our favour occasionally, but there are times it wouldn’t..

Which is why you have a clause that states it either increases at 3%, or CPI, whichever is greater.

It's a clause that many EBA's have outside the aviation industry, unfortunately though as you have illustrated, we seem to love to race towards the bottom.

[ANCDU]

This does however appear to be an extraordinary uplift in one hit, considering the state of affairs overall. I can’t see it getting better, but could certainly see it decline if we knock it back (again). Lock it in I say.

I think extraordinary might be a bit of an overstatement, it’s basically a 21% increase over 7 years to 2025, 3% per annum with the 2 year pay freeze being nullified by a compliance payment to bring FO wages up to award which basically says it all really. It’s Qantas group wages policy with a bump they had to give otherwise it would never be voted up, with the usual gains and losses in conditions. Certainly not extraordinary, I’d say it’s basically what was expected at a minimum.

If it’s knocked back I’m not sure how it could decline it’s Qantas’s own IR policy that they would have to decline. That’s usual Qantas IR scaremongering, they’ve been doing it since the Dixon days.

[FOI]

Which is why you have a clause that states it either increases at 3%, or CPI, whichever is greater.

It's a clause that many EBA's have outside the aviation industry, unfortunately though as you have illustrated, we seem to love to race towards the bottom.

The assertion that “we” love to engage in a race to the bottom is tired and frankly ridiculous.

EBA’s in some blue collar industries might have such a clause that you speak of (I’d be curious to see one), but we work in an industry where we’re paid six figure salaries (and are arguably unique being remunerated as “white collar” workers whilst enjoying the protections of an EBA). No airline in their right mind would allow for such a clause as you speak of, it could ultimately be the difference between profitability or not, or worse.We can dream, but let’s keep things realistic in the context of what we have to do now.

We’re going around in circles. We’re the second highest paid Pilots in the country, we can compare apples with mangoes all day long but we need to look at OUR station in life.

Look much broader than what some airline in the US is paying foreign contractors on a fixed term contract, or what Pilots were paid in the 80’s (???), or my favourite of all, who gets a better seat on duty travel…

When we declined 3% increases in 2019, COVID hit and we found ourselves in an extremely difficult bargaining environment after it. Has anyone been watching the international current affairs at the moment? I would suggest we’re potentially on the brink of at least one of several potential worldwide disasters brewing that will no doubt impact our business again. And we’re considering knocking this back and repeating the same?

21% (12% immediate) PLUS PLUS. Who gets that anywhere? I can’t believe some can’t see it.

[Gear in transit]

If it’s knocked back I’m not sure how it could decline it’s Qantas’s own IR policy that they would have to decline.

It could decline by the award compliance payment. (Roughly 6%)

The F/O + S/O wages are written as a percentage of Captains wages. Given the 0,0,2,2% originally on offer, this did not bring the wages up to the award for some of the lower ranks, hence the award compliance payment.
Since then the wage policy has changed to 3%.

At 0,0,3,3% adjusted down as a % from the captains wage, this would cover the award for the lower ranks it originally did not when 2%. The award compliance has been maintained because it was agreed to 'in principal' prior to the wages policy changing (And probably with the knowledge of the sh!t fight it would cause.)
We could all argue they had to etc etc. Call it what you will, but they would have no obligation to maintain the compliance payment with the policy at 3% as it complies with the award.

[Gunner747400]

EBA’s in some blue collar industries might have such a clause that you speak of (I’d be curious to see one), but we work in an industry where we’re paid six figure salaries (and are arguably unique being “white collar” workers protected by an EBA). No airline in their right mind would allow for such a clause as you speak of, it could ultimately be the difference between profitability or not, or worse.


Tug boat drivers and marine pilots are a profession that I would argue is at a similar profession level to us, get paid similar (more than the base of any FO in Australia, and most captains besides the red rat), and have this clause in their EBA. I don't see the ports going under because they can't turn a profit. You really do speak like a true manager, which I am guessing you are based on your continual distain towards improving workers conditions.

I'm not talking about woolies or maccas workers here.

[ddrwk]

This does however appear to be an extraordinary uplift in one hit, considering the state of affairs overall.

Not really. If it were a 21% increase for 1 year, then maybe, but the EA has been expired for many years now with the resultant absence of pay rises. Now what we see is years of company approved pay rises (that equally apply to ALL other employees) coming in one hit. And it is suddenly viewed as extraordinary? Hardly.

Additionally, the 6% increase for BOOT compliance is necessary to ensure FWC approval of any proposed EA. Granted, the extension of this increase to ALL categories was not legally required however would have significantly diminished the chances of a yes vote.

Since the expiry of the current JQ EA we have seen the successful negotiation of new EA’s for mainline LH and SH, as well as a SH variation. Yet only now has an in-principle agreement been reached with Jetstar. It might be time for a bit of self-reflection as to missed opportunities during this protracted process rather than the back-slapping we see for a decidedly average deal involving no more than group policy annual increases and a mandated one-off raise along with multiple ‘gives’ for very little in return.

[FOI]

Tug boat drivers and marine pilots are a profession that I would argue is at a similar profession level to us, get paid similar (more than the base of any FO in Australia, and most captains besides the red rat), and have this clause in their EBA. I don't see the ports going under because they can't turn a profit. You really do speak like a true manager, which I am guessing you are based on your continual distain towards improving workers conditions.

I'm not talking about woolies or maccas workers here.

So we’re not comparing ourselves against Tiger anymore, Virgin anymore, US Regional contract pilots anyone. We’re comparing ourselves against Tug Boat drivers…How much more ridiculous can this get.

And youI’ve fallen for the last line of puerile defence in focusing on me with idiotic speculation rather than the issue at hand.

I just don’t agree with a handful of you who are intent on diseasing the minds of some of our lesser experienced Pilots with your miserable outlooks on life. I’m not going to allow the handful be the loudest voices in the room; too much at stake, too much lost last time we (well some) listened to you.

[Gunner747400]

So we’re not comparing ourselves against Tiger anymore, Virgin anymore, US Regional contract pilots anyone. We’re comparing ourselves against Tug Boat drivers…How much more ridiculous can this get..

Yeah, correct. It is ridiculous that someone who drives a tug boat around can negotiate a better pay rise and salary than someone poling around in a multi million dollar jet.

Thanks for proving my point.

[FOI]

Not really. If it were a 21% increase for 1 year, then maybe, but the EA has been expired for many years now with the resultant absence of pay rises. Now what we see is years of company approved pay rises (that equally apply to ALL other employees) coming in one hit. And it is suddenly viewed as extraordinary? Hardly.

Additionally, the 6% increase for BOOT compliance is necessary to ensure FWC approval of any proposed EA. Granted, the extension of this increase to ALL categories was not legally required however would have significantly diminished the chances of a yes vote.

Since the expiry of the current JQ EA we have seen the successful negotiation of new EA’s for mainline LH and SH, as well as a SH variation. Yet only now has an in-principle agreement been reached with Jetstar. It might be time for a bit of self-reflection as to missed opportunities during this protracted process rather than the back-slapping we see for a decidedly average deal involving no more than group policy annual increases and a mandated one-off raise along with multiple ‘gives’ for very little in return.

A rational post. I think from what you’re saying, you support it acknowledging we’ve come along way from where we were industrially, that pragmatism has been shown in best efforts for a yes vote. The disagreement lies in how it’s described, which is fine by me.

[FOI]

Yeah, correct. It is ridiculous that someone who drives a tug boat around can negotiate a better pay rise and salary than someone poling around in a multi million dollar jet.

Thanks for proving my point.

Better get your boat licence then.

[Chronic Snoozer]

The assertion that “we” love to engage in a race to the bottom is tired and frankly ridiculous.

EBA’s in some blue collar industries might have such a clause that you speak of (I’d be curious to see one), No airline in their right mind would allow for such a clause as you speak of, it could ultimately be the difference between profitability or not, or worse.We can dream, but let’s keep things realistic in the context of what we have to do now.

It’s called an escalation clause and NJS has/had one in it’s 2017 EBA.

“From 1 July 2018, 2019 and 2020, the salary rates and overtime in this Schedule will be increased by 2.5% or CPI, whichever is the greater, and shall be cumulative on the previous year(s) increase.”

Many of the current and past EBAs are available via the FWC site so it may pay to have a good read.

[Gunner747400]

It’s called an escalation clause and NJS has/had one in it’s 2017 EBA.

“From 1 July 2018, 2019 and 2020, the salary rates and overtime in this Schedule will be increased by 2.5% or CPI, whichever is the greater, and shall be cumulative on the previous year(s) increase.”

Many of the current and past EBAs are available via the FWC site so it may pay to have a good read.

Waits for FOI's response to be "better go be a NJS pilot then".

[FOI]

Waits for FOI's response to be "better go be a NJS pilot then".

Well, now you mention it…

[FOI]

It’s called an escalation clause and NJS has/had one in it’s 2017 EBA.

“From 1 July 2018, 2019 and 2020, the salary rates and overtime in this Schedule will be increased by 2.5% or CPI, whichever is the greater, and shall be cumulative on the previous year(s) increase.”

Many of the current and past EBAs are available via the FWC site so it may pay to have a good read.

So you’d like to cherry pick bits and pieces of what’s in the NJS contact, but not all of it I presume?

Think I’ve wasted enough time with some of you miserable lot. I’m off to start getting pissed off that someone won more than me in The Cup.

[ddrwk]

So you’d like to cherry pick bits and pieces of what’s in the NJS contact, but not all of it I presume?

I think that’s exactly what QF IR also did in the recent Winton negotiations. 😉

[Chronic Snoozer]

So you’d like to cherry pick bits and pieces of what’s in the NJS contact, but not all of it I presume?

Not at all. I understand it is a good EBA. For convenience, I posted the clause which counters your supposition that such a clause might only existed in blue collar industries or that “no airline in their right mind” would agree to one, but also to satisfy your curiosity.

[FOI]

Not at all. I understand it is a good EBA. For convenience, I posted the clause which counters your supposition that such a clause might only existed in blue collar industries or that “no airline in their right mind” would agree to one, but also to satisfy your curiosity.

No Snoozer, what you posted was an EXPIRED Agreement. There is no “Escalation Clause” as far as I can tell in their 2022 Agreement. Salary inclusive of Super and 2% increases.

I wonder why it no longer exists? Maybe because it’s completely unsustainable for EXACTLY the reasons I specified.

[Chronic Snoozer]

No Snoozer, what you posted was an EXPIRED Agreement. There is no “Escalation Clause” as far as I can tell in their 2022 Agreement. Salary inclusive of Super and 2% increases.

I wonder why it no longer exists? Maybe because it’s completely unsustainable for EXACTLY the reasons I specified.

Well at least you’re doing some research now.

[Gunner747400]

I wonder why it no longer exists? Maybe because it’s completely unsustainable for EXACTLY the reasons I specified.

It's rather comical that you think the reason that clause would be removed would be because they think it is going to cause the company to go broke. I think you'll find it had much more sinister IR reasons behind it (considering it was the first EBA post NJS merging into the QF group).

Any way I am done debating this, we clearly have different ideological views on how IR problems should be handled, and no point going around in circles.

[FOI]

It's rather comical that you think the reason that clause would be removed would be because they think it is going to cause the company to go broke. I think you'll find it had much more sinister IR reasons behind it (considering it was the first EBA post NJS merging into the QF group).

Any way I am done debating this, we clearly have different ideological views on how IR problems should be handled, and no point going around in circles.

Agreed. There’s little point to endless debate. Best of luck to us all, may the right result prevail.

[das Uber Soldat]

FOI, if you think a wage provision tied to CPI would drive a profitable airline into loss then you've no place to lecture anyone on matters financial.

Wages remaining with CPI, even in an inflationary environment serves only to assure that the wage cost to the business doesn't change at all, and that the employees are protected from an unwarranted wage cut.

The fact is, this offer you're shamelessly pushing is a pay cut from when I started with the company. It's a pay cut in the face of increased productivity from me and my peers, reduced lifestyle provisions yet enormous execute pay.

Why should I accept a pay cut? We have as a pilot group continually increased our productivity to the company. 321s, low vis, RNP now down to 0.1. Now we have a new type to learn, with yet more pax, to operate medium hall international with widebody pax loads and the company has valued these additional benefits by the pilot body as not just zero, as worthless, but as deserving of a reduction in our pay.

And you want us to excitedly vote yes to it?!

No mate.

[StudentInDebt]

The assertion that “we” love to engage in a race to the bottom is tired and frankly ridiculous.

EBA’s in some blue collar industries might have such a clause that you speak of (I’d be curious to see one), but we work in an industry where we’re paid six figure salaries (and are arguably unique being remunerated as “white collar” workers whilst enjoying the protections of an EBA). No airline in their right mind would allow for such a clause as you speak of, it could ultimately be the difference between profitability or not, or worse.We can dream, but let’s keep things realistic in the context of what we have to do now.
Both of the large, very profitable jet airlines I've worked for prior to Jetstar had exactly these sorts of clauses in the 3-4 year pay deals (RPI+x%) we signed up to, they weren't Australia based. People still whined about giving up too much and the +x% wasn't enough though.

[RealSatoshi]

Here we go, Pilots, the internet, and finances….
...says a Pilot on an Internet Rumour Network, while lecturing other Pilots on how to vote on an EBA that determines their financial stability and future...

Let me lay it out for you...and then you can continue to have Fun while being Poor on that which you propose :ugh:

Consider an arbitrary Base Salary of circa $200 000.00 per year starting out in 2018:

Your Proposal versus a (Mediocre) CPI* + 0%**
(*) June Year-on-Year Figures
(**) Zero increase in Spending Power - Just maintaining Status Quo

2019 + 0% : $200 000.00___versus___CPI (1.6%) : $203 200.00
2020 + 0% : $200 000.00___versus___CPI (-0.3%): $202 590.40 (Swallow some Stand Downs with That)
2021 + 3% : $206 000.00___versus___CPI (3.8%) : $210 288.84 (Swallow some Stand Downs with That)
2022 + 3% : $212 180.00___versus___CPI (6.1%) : $223 116.45
2023 + 3% : $218 545.40
2024 + 3% : $225 101.76
2025 + 3% : $231 854.81

If you're still struggling with the finances as you alluded that Pilots do...then consider this:
To make your proposal work and thus ensure you have exactly the same spending power in 2025 than what you had before 2019, you are wagering your bets that CPI will be 1.288818% (or less) in 2023, 2024 and 2025.

Even if this was remotely possible, you'll be back to 2018 levels without everything that you've 'Sold' off the agreement to get there...

Maths is a Wonderful Thing :ok:

[ZebraFlyer]

No Snoozer, what you posted was an EXPIRED Agreement. There is no “Escalation Clause” as far as I can tell in their 2022 Agreement. Salary inclusive of Super and 2% increases.

I wonder why it no longer exists? Maybe because it’s completely unsustainable for EXACTLY the reasons I specified.

Airwork another that springs to mind. Might be expired too, though.

[a_pilot]

Nothing but scaremongering from the people who wanted PIA last time but are trying to scare everyone now.

Scaring us if this ends up in Fair work (after PIA and lock out) as we won't be able to negotiate or influence the outcome. Shouldn't the company also be scared if this ends up in fair work either as they also don't have any influence or negotiation either ? Why do we have to be the first ones (weakest) to back down?

Scared of losing some gains If we vote no.
Then we just keeping voting no.

Scaring us because we don't have a plan.
I thought that was your job and why I pay my union fees.
Why not continue the same plan (PIA) as last time?
Wasn't this the plan being pushed last time, because 3% wasn't enough yet now a 2 year pay freeze is ok?

I'm really confused.

Answers please

[Keith Myath]

...says a Pilot on an Internet Rumour Network, while lecturing other Pilots on how to vote on an EBA that determines their financial stability and future...

Let me lay it out for you...and then you can continue to have Fun while being Poor on that which you propose :ugh:

Consider an arbitrary Base Salary of circa $200 000.00 per year starting out in 2018:

Your Proposal versus a (Mediocre) CPI* + 0%**
(*) June Year-on-Year Figures
(**) Zero increase in Spending Power - Just maintaining Status Quo

2019 + 0% : $200 000.00___versus___CPI (1.6%) : $203 200.00
2020 + 0% : $200 000.00___versus___CPI (-0.3%): $202 590.40 (Swallow some Stand Downs with That)
2021 + 3% : $206 000.00___versus___CPI (3.8%) : $210 288.84 (Swallow some Stand Downs with That)
2022 + 3% : $212 180.00___versus___CPI (6.1%) : $223 116.45
2023 + 3% : $218 545.40
2024 + 3% : $225 101.76
2025 + 3% : $231 854.81

If you're still struggling with the finances as you alluded that Pilots do...then consider this:
To make your proposal work and thus ensure you have exactly the same spending power in 2025 than what you had before 2019, you are wagering your bets that CPI will be 1.288818% (or less) in 2023, 2024 and 2025.

Even if this was remotely possible, you'll be back to 2018 levels without everything that you've 'Sold' off the agreement to get there...

Maths is a Wonderful Thing :ok:

It can be, if you know how to do it. Basic English comprehension also helps. Let me fix your table for you.

2019 + 0% : $200 000.00___versus___CPI (1.6%) : $203 200.00
2020 + 0% : $200 000.00___versus___CPI (-0.3%): $202 590.40 (Swallow some Stand Downs with That)
2021 + 3% : $206 000.00___versus___CPI (3.8%) : $210 288.84 (Swallow some Stand Downs with That)
2022 + 3+6 % : $224 910.00___versus___CPI (6.1%) : $223 116.45
2023 + 3% : $231 656.12
2024 + 3% : $238 609.87
2025 + 3% : $245 766.10

Either you don't work for Jetstar and therefore don't have the details of the deal and are just trolling. Or I guess your English comprehension could be just that bad that you missed 6% and couldn't read the salary tables that have been promulgated.

[ManillaChillaDilla]

Thats all great.

So why are we worth less that others doing the same job to the same standard?

FOI?

MCD

[RealSatoshi]

It can be, if you know how to do it. Basic English comprehension also helps. Let me fix your table for you.

2019 + 0% : $200 000.00___versus___CPI (1.6%) : $203 200.00
2020 + 0% : $200 000.00___versus___CPI (-0.3%): $202 590.40 (Swallow some Stand Downs with That)
2021 + 3% : $206 000.00___versus___CPI (3.8%) : $210 288.84 (Swallow some Stand Downs with That)
2022 + 3+6 % : $224 910.00___versus___CPI (6.1%) : $223 116.45
2023 + 3% : $231 656.12
2024 + 3% : $238 609.87
2025 + 3% : $245 766.10

Either you don't work for Jetstar and therefore don't have the details of the deal and are just trolling. Or I guess your English comprehension could be just that bad that you missed 6% and couldn't read the salary tables that have been promulgated.

Yes, BOOT not included and therefore I referred to the CPI + 0% as Mediocre - Written in Bold

You don't improve your situation by tracking CPI, as CPI in itself is flawed to the downside. If you track CPI for a lifetime, you will be worse off than where you started. Hence my original comment about CPI + (X)% wherein (X) is the one (and only one) that rewards you for productivity improvements and 'give backs'.

CPI should be a given - It is known as Wage Growth, i.e a rise of wage adjusted for inflation - except if you like working for 'less' every year, then don't track CPI at your peril. But, if you do 2% More, is it fair to say that you expect 1% More (50/50 share between employee and employer), wherein that 1% is not part of CPI but over and above CPI - Raise your hand if you have not been doing (X)% more...

The current proposal (including BOOT) satisfies Wage Growth, but considering all the big numbers being thrown around, does not realistically satisfy CPI + 1% for someone who believes that they are giving significantly more each year.

Let's see how your numbers shape up when we include BOOT and compare that to someone that believes he/she deserves CPI + 1%

Your Proposal versus CPI* + 1%**
(*) June Year-on-Year Figures
(**) 1% increase in Spending Power

2019 + 0% : $200 000.00___versus___CPI + 1% (2.6%) : $205 200.00
2020 + 0% : $200 000.00___versus___CPI + 1% (0.7%) : $206 636.40 (Swallow some Stand Downs with That)
2021 + 3% : $206 000.00___versus___CPI + 1% (4.8%) : $216 554.95 (Swallow some Stand Downs with That)
2022 + 9% : $224 540.00___versus___CPI + 1% (7.1%) : $231 930.35
2023 + 3% : $231 276.20
2024 + 3% : $238 214.49
2025 + 3% : $245 360.92

To make your proposal work and end up at $245 360.92 in 2025, while still ensuring your spending power improves by 1% each year, you are wagering your bets that CPI will be 0.894155% (or less) in 2023, 2024 and 2025.

On Cue, Daniel Ziffer explained it here tonight:

https://youtu.be/0NWNykBCmYY

[Wasi Wasamadroota]

Deleted because CBF

[SHVC]

Now I have read the draft I can now make an informed decision.

[LostontheLOC]

Effectively this;

More work,less protections,
required work at home,
for less pay!

I hope to hell the pilot group see's through this crap.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

FOI, are you saying QF is financially unsustainable if they had to pay salaries that don’t see their staff going backwards at soon-to-be double digits? We’re not talking about payrises here, not even close.

I think you make a potentially damaging claim if that is what you’re saying.

Out of interest, how much have ticket prices gone up? And how much has profit gone up during this challenging time?

[cLeArIcE]

FOI, are you saying QF is financially unsustainable if they had to pay salaries that don’t see their staff going backwards at soon-to-be double digits? We’re not talking about payrises here, not even close.

I think you make a potentially damaging claim if that is what you’re saying.

Out of interest, how much have ticket prices gone up? And how much has profit gone up during this challenging time? honestly don't even bother. FOI must be a management troll having a laugh or something. If not, he/she has no idea.

[a_pilot]

Just been going through some old AFAP emails.

This was the result of the EBA survey back in 2018.

The EBA negotiations are approaching fast and your JPFC are utilising the survey results to compile the log of claims for EBA 2019. Your message is clear, with the big ticket items including:

· an increase in remuneration;

· combining the Roster Protocol Agreement into the body of the new EBA; and

· the establishment of a better work life balance.


The survey indicated that a better work life balance is a big ticket item yet nothing in the proposed EBA addresses this.

Seriously, apart from pay increases (to try to keep up with inflation), this is all else we are getting (outside work):

4 additional star days per pilot (but still the same amount of days off)
Access to fixed days off and or a fixed roster pattern for eligible Carer’s (2% pilots only)
Modified ACALS to improve access to leave
Improvements to annual leave availability:

Not much gained, and we even made some sacrifices in work/life balance, so the net gain is zero, otherwise worse off. (Improved access to AVAIL Days – up to 1700 the day prior (or at sign-off after their last duty, whichever is later) before it converts to a DFD. The restriction around converting an available day to Standby remains). This means even less days off now.

Excuse my ignorance, but I don't see any improvement in work life balance.

Yet here is another quote from an AFAP email (Mar 2019)


We highlighted that the Tigerair EA that is currently out for vote has 137 DDOs, Virgin Narrow Body has 149 DDOs, Virgin Wide Body A330 has 149 DDOs and Virgin Wide Body B777 has 143 DDOs. The point being that our competitor airlines (other than Qantas) all have significantly more designated days off.

Thanks for highlighting this to Jetstar and also reminding Jetstar pilots how worse off they are, yet nothing was done about it. Wouldn't more DDO's improve the work/life balance ?

Here is another quote from an AFAP email November 2019:

What is Protected Industrial Action (PIA)?

PIA is a genuine and legitimate industrial tool that union members are lawfully entitled to utilise to ‘persuade’ an employer to ‘reconsider’ their position; i.e. in the words of Act: “…for the purpose of supporting or advancing claims in relation to an Agreement.”


Isn't it time to for the Union to represent it's members and fight for that they wanted (a better work/life balance) using all available tools? (as we were advised last time and as they intended and commenced)

If this EBA gets through, it will be nothing but a pay increase to attempt to keep up with inflation, but otherwise the same old ****, work hard, get flogged, and tired all the time (work harder/earn less than others). Is this what you want?

[LostontheLOC]

Well said mate, this is absolutely pathetic agreement and leaves us open to be decimated by segregation. I hope to **** this does not go through.

[ManillaChillaDilla]

Its a net zero gain.

Anybody thinking this is a " pay rise " has obviously forgotten that they haven't had a pay rise in 5 years.

Zero lifestyle improvements and only getting paid what your owed. Who is the AFAP actually working for?

Does anyone actually think this is the only deal on the table?

NO.

MCD

[TimmyTee]

If you think that inflation is "only" 6ish%, maybe have a rethink at what your personal inflation is tracking at for the year.
News.com.au have a calculator that lets you plug in a few variables to see what real inflation rate you're personally looking at - as a fairly modest, healthy-ish living person, I'm looking at 11%. Throw in a few additional things like child care and smoking or going out often and this sky rockets.
https://www.news.com.au/finance/money/costs/personal-inflation-calculator-crucial-number-you-need-for-your-budget/news-story/b8c50a5452079696c8bc66b721c17346
(scroll about halfway down the article for the calculator)

[a_pilot]

Maybe the union/negotiators should take a look at that inflation calculator link.

Apparently they have a calculator/spreadsheet to calculate back pay, but can't seem to calculate days off compared to other major Australian airlines as well calculate real inflation.

[LostontheLOC]

There is NOTHING factually incorrect. I bet you can’t even articulate what “lifestyle” is to you? Other than of course coming to work less, and having to put up with its inconveniences, whilst getting paid, under the rationale of some on here, MORE than 21% in salary alone than you do now.
Everything you have said is more or less factually incorrect, and what difference would this be compared to 3% per year, lets work it out shall we?


It’s not astrophysics, I can add:

let me break it down to a level you can understand. just FYI you will need both hands.

July 2019 3%
July 2020 3%
July 2021 3%
July 2022 3%
July 2023 3%
July 2024 3%
July 2025 3%

7 x 3% = 21%, that's similar to the total we are at now isn't it? what a surprise. Further to this, the only reason we are getting a move back to 3% is because we are forced under the award to be paid this, this is not good will, this is not another but the absolute minimum.


Highline - increase in full rates (min 10% over life of agreement) + a rate to be paid IN addition to your 100% being paid whilst operating at 50% from sign-off at layover until sign-on on layover


A few cents increase isn't worth the time away from home and your family.


Increases to DTA/ODTA rates (14% - 18%)
Increase to EFA rates


Required as they are calculated under the total yearly base.


Proper Carers lines - as I understand it there’ll be part/full-time options (lifestyle)


Proper carers line that doesn't meant he Qantas group minimum standard, because Jetstar doesn't want to copy and paste the written agreement standard that Qantas has already created? that doesn't meet the minimum NES standard? that gives 2% of pilots cares line? tell me again how this is proper?


Increase to Star Days annually - 9 to 13 (lifestyle)


Star days that never get approved? good call there.


Increase to annual leave slot ability and improvements to priority system (lifestyle)


Leave slots that don't meet the NES standard of a leave system? another good call.


Unscheduled Overnight + Misconnections defined processes + remuneration compensation (lifestyle)


Most employers that has a similar WDO and DIL built into theirs, but here we are, 50% WDO within 3 hours and don't worry if you have things planned on your day off, the company will own you until such time you are signed off in your home base.


Single week annual leave access for Flexi-Line pilots (lifestyle)….


NES required


You basically have no idea what you’re talking about do you LOC?


Its clearly the other way round, you have embarrassed yourself consistently with poor judgement and poor interpretation, you have been consistently corrected and proven wrong, not just by me but a significant amount of people on this forum, you are clueless and your misinformation is a clear sign of your intent on these forums - So again, stop spreading misinformation, its helping no one.


And it’s not rhetorical the statements about leaving. Some on here bang on endlessly about how much better it is in the US (money wise at least). It’s a simple fact, if it’s the money down to the cent alone, who’s stopping you? They pay it there obviously because they have to, they offer visas to foreigners because they have to; you’re on a fixed term contract on a temporary visa, if that floats your boat then give it a go.
[/QUOTE]

We have list close to 50 pilots in the last few months, all be it by multiple causes, but a lot have left for better places.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

honestly don't even bother. FOI must be a management troll having a laugh or something. If not, he/she has no idea.

I doubt FOI is management. Management or those with an interest from management certainly lurk here and I would like FOI to reconfirm his/her damaging suggestion here in front of you good people.

[Lead Balloon]

Just one mathematical point: 7 x 3% annual increases is not the same as a 21% increase.

e.g. $100,000 increased by 3% is $103,000. $103,000 increased by 3% isn’t $106,000. It’s $106,180. Do that another 5 times and you don’t get to $121,000.

However, the overarching point that pay increased by CPI does not maintain the ‘buying power’ of pay is unassailable. Even the ABS acknowledges that (or should I call the ABS “The Other Bureau”…).

[Ollie Onion]

What a total load of ****, if the new deal suits you then vote for it! If it doesn’t then don’t vote for it…… Majority wins……. Simple. If after the result you don’t like the outcome then either volunteer to join the negotiating team or leave.

Having been a Union rep it is the most thankless task, everyone is pulling in different directions and when you deliver a deal it is amazing the amount of abuse you are subjected too after giving up a massive amount of personal time to try and represent the pilots. I often handed critics a ‘nomination’ form to join as a representative and they couldn’t back away quick enough.

The one thing we always tried to foster as a rep was unity which was always the one thing we never achieved. I mean look at this thread, you are all reading the same proposed deal and can’t even agree the basic numbers let alone if it is good or not. Unity is what the company truely fears and what they have spent years chipping away at. In the end you have to present an offer as I can guarantee you there would have been pressure on the reps to present something or ‘people were going to leave the union’. What members don’t understand is ‘they’ are the union… not the people on the negotiating team, the deal your negotiators can obtain is directly proportional to how effective the members are at being ‘unionised’. Again from this thread we can see the problem is contained within the members, can’t even agree amoungst themselves.

[Jack D. Ripper]

What a total load of ****, if the new deal suits you then vote for it! If it doesn’t then don’t vote for it…… Majority wins……. Simple. If after the result you don’t like the outcome then either volunteer to join the negotiating team or leave.

Having been a Union rep it is the most thankless task, everyone is pulling in different directions and when you deliver a deal it is amazing the amount of abuse you are subjected too after giving up a massive amount of personal time to try and represent the pilots. I often handed critics a ‘nomination’ form to join as a representative and they couldn’t back away quick enough.

The one thing we always tried to foster as a rep was unity which was always the one thing we never achieved. I mean look at this thread, you are all reading the same proposed deal and can’t even agree the basic numbers let alone if it is good or not. Unity is what the company truely fears and what they have spent years chipping away at. In the end you have to present an offer as I can guarantee you there would have been pressure on the reps to present something or ‘people were going to leave the union’. What members don’t understand is ‘they’ are the union… not the people on the negotiating team, the deal your negotiators can obtain is directly proportional to how effective the members are at being ‘unionised’. Again from this thread we can see the problem is contained within the members, can’t even agree amoungst themselves.

Ollie - no offence, but anyone who puts up their hand to represent pilots and expects anything OTHER than feedback is naive. You are effectively a politician, albeit unpaid.

Pilot unity is a myth. At best it can be briefly glimpsed at a pub.

The reality is that whilst JQ pilots fight on Pprune about voting up their EBA, QF pilots will be flying A321’s on significantly better terms and conditions, and the Qantas group are happy to pay for this……

[Lookleft]

Unity is what the company truely fears and what they have spent years chipping away at. In the end you have to present an offer as I can guarantee you there would have been pressure on the reps to present something or ‘people were going to leave the union’.

Interesting concept is unity. When you refer to unity do you mean everyone standing behind the one banner or do you mean unions working together for the common good of the pilots? You are absolutely correct when you state that the company fears the unity of the pilots and their representatives. What this document represents is the company's successful attempt to drive a wedge within the pilot group and one of the pilot unions happily signing on in a thinly veiled attempt to be the only union in the spotlight. The hypocrisy in the draft is that AIPA is expected to sign it when it has not been a party to its construction and has been sidelined by the company and the AFAP in the negotiation of it. This is as much a political document as it is an industrial one. If it is voted down then it will demonstrate that the pilots see the future more clearly than the people who negotiated it. If its voted up then that won't be an indication that the pilots are happy with the negotiators but more an indication of frustration and reluctant acceptance that they are pawns in a ridiculous industrial chess game.

[romeocharlie]

Ollie - no offence, but anyone who puts up their hand to represent pilots and expects anything OTHER than feedback is naive. You are effectively a politician, albeit unpaid.

Pilot unity is a myth. At best it can be briefly glimpsed at a pub.

The reality is that whilst JQ pilots fight on Pprune about voting up their EBA, QF pilots will be flying A321’s on significantly better terms and conditions, and the Qantas group are happy to pay for this……

….and EFA pilots will be flying them on significantly worse conditions. All one happy family.

[Ollie Onion]

‘Feedback’ YES, abuse NO. Honestly you have no idea the vile comments that are directed at the reps from some people. By Unity I mean a united front and message from ALL pilots and Unions with the in fighting restricted to between themselves. During my
last contract negotiation we had members writing emails to Management detailing discussions had at Union base meetings as the ‘members’ didn’t agree with the Union direction….. Music to Managers ears. Management 101 is to split the employee group… we shouldn’t help them do it. I truely believe it is a hangover from 1989, I was a rep overseas as well and participated in many PIA’s for the greater good, trying to get the Aussies to do the same thing is like hearding cats and the T&C’s will forever suffer as a result.

Everyone gazes overseas and envies the contract gains in the US etc, guess what, the Unions played hardball and won big eith the backing of the members. The same could be achieved here if ypu could convince ALL Qantas Group employees to support each other with maybe a recruitment ban until Qantas comes to the party…. Will it EVER HAPPEN ….. sadly NO.

That is why I say, it is everyone for themselves, if it suits you vote for it and din’t worry about everyone else.

[hillbillybob]

well said, Qantas is scared of the current proposed labor IR reforms that might allow group bargaining but there is zero evidence that the various pilot groups would know what to do with it

[a_pilot]

Back in 2019, the inflation rate was only 1.6% yet the union was taking PIA in an attempt to break through the Qantas 3% wage policy. There was no wage freeze either.

Now in 2022, with the 12 month inflation rate sitting at 7.3%, the negotiatiors are making no attempt to break the 3% wage policy or keep up with inflation, and even worse, they are trying tell everyone what a good deal this is.

This is also after most pilots were stood down without pay for a lengthy period of time. (Some perhaps over 18 month)

Sorry, not good enough and something does not seem right here.

[WhiteNight]

The union seems to be going above and beyond in an attempt to 'sell' the deal. I thought that was the companies job. A good deal should sell itself? Doesn't sound like this one does... at all..

[Willie Nelson]

I almost spat out my corn flakes this morning as I read this quote in the Oz from QF Chairman Richard Goyder:

”We’re concerned that lowering the bar for compulsory arbitration and enforcing multi employer bargaining would lead to centralised wage setting” …..(with)”little regard for the fact that companies have different needs, that will have a massive impact on productivity, growth and….,the ability to pay more”

page 7 (The Nation, Australian Newspaper, November 5-6,2022)

[mcgrath50]

Everyone gazes overseas and envies the contract gains in the US etc, guess what, the Unions played hardball and won big eith the backing of the members. The same could be achieved here if ypu could convince ALL Qantas Group employees to support each other with maybe a recruitment ban until Qantas comes to the party…. Will it EVER HAPPEN ….. sadly NO.

Australian pilots, despite largely being members of the union, are inherently economic-conservatives and Liberal voters. The industrial naivety of wondering why the fair work act provides sweet FA to workers but continually voting for the Liberals is stunning. Compare this to ALPA-I in the US, their social media talks about solidarity across all workers, standing with cabin crew and baggage handlers, they talk about solidarity and unity. They run pickets at airport terminals! They openly talk about equality rather than being scared to discuss anything more than a 'network' for women. ALPA-I is a real union because their members understand that real unions get real results. A union is only as strong as their members and to be frank, Australian pilots are individualistic and anti-union. While we squabble and snitch to management we will never increase wages in this country.

[Ladloy]

Australian pilots, despite largely being members of the union, are inherently economic-conservatives and Liberal voters. The industrial naivety of wondering why the fair work act provides sweet FA to workers but continually voting for the Liberals is stunning. Compare this to ALPA-I in the US, their social media talks about solidarity across all workers, standing with cabin crew and baggage handlers, they talk about solidarity and unity. They run pickets at airport terminals! They openly talk about equality rather than being scared to discuss anything more than a 'network' for women. ALPA-I is a real union because their members understand that real unions get real results. A union is only as strong as their members and to be frank, Australian pilots are individualistic and anti-union. While we squabble and snitch to management we will never increase wages in this country.
This should be at stickied at the top of the forum.