Airlines must be majority EU owned

[BirdmanBerry]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/22/uk-based-airlines-told-to-move-to-europe-after-brexit-or-lose-major-routes

Can they actually do this?

[wiggy]

The FT repeated the “warning” in an article yesterday so I suspect “they”, as in the EU, think they can.

If you want to read the FT piece try googling something like FT EU gives airlines deadline for no-deal Brexit..it might help you avoid a paywall.

[Skyjob]

This has always been the case.
However, while operating under EU law, this is not an issue, it is once EU membership is renounced.

Simplest solution: revoke article 50 and stay in EU with all its benefits, save billions more than the money you pay into the EU and claim to save for the NHS.

[racedo]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/22/uk-based-airlines-told-to-move-to-europe-after-brexit-or-lose-major-routes

Can they actually do this?

This is not actually news as Ryanair and Easyjet were very clear they had already amended Aricles of Association to compulsorarily acquire shares of Uk citizens if required to reach the threshold. They announced this in 2016.

Issue ,may be with BA as its owned by IAG and that will have to be >50 % owned by EU citizens whoch may mean Gulf investment comes under scruitiny. UK Govt may demand any UK airline is majority owned by UK citizens which could be an issue and force divestment.Likely BA may concentrate solely on LH and IAG elements do EU flights.

[safelife]

And Thomas Cook plc? Owning Thomas Cook Scandinavia, Condor and Thomas Cook Balearics?
How are they going to demonstrate European ownership?

[oceancrosser]

Indigo Partners and Wizz air run rings around this EU legislation laughing all the way to the bank.

[The Ancient Geek]

Welcome to the minefield. It is possible to have an airline which only has one small office and holds an operating certificate.
Everything else can be outsourced as in the (infamous) case of an IOM operation,

What is the EU definition of an airline and ownership ?

Here be dragons.

[EastMids]

I think things have moved on a little since that article was published in The Guardian - March 22, 2017!

[matkat]

So what about the Chicago convention and what about Norwegian, Swiss and iIcelandair sounds like total bollocks I am not a supporter of Brext but come on???

[Skyborne Flyer]

None of the airlines you cite above operate intra-EU flights necessitating fifth or seventh freedom rights. The legislation affects point-to-point flights inside the EU without stops within the operators home country.

[calypso]

What about the Chicago convention? : Article 6: (Scheduled air services) No scheduled international air service may be operated over or into the territory of a contracting State, except with the special permission or other authorization of that State.

Swizerland is part of the EFTA
Iceland is part of the EEA
Norway is part of the EEA

Any other questions?

[the_stranger]

So what about the Chicago convention and what about Norwegian, Swiss and iIcelandair sounds like total bollocks I am not a supporter of Brext but come on???
I think the problem is not that they are not allowed to fly in/over European airspace, but that they need to acquire permission to do so.
Permission which needs to be required after a brexit, which can take a while.

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

This is only for an airline to operate within Europe, eg a flight from say Brussels to Madrid. If the flight is, say, from London to Madrid on a UK airline then this doesn’t change after Brexit. If a “UK” airline wanted to operate within Europe they would have to be European, not British, hence easyJet setting up their Austrian AOC, being European means that at least 51% of them is European owned

[Aso]

Can they actually do this?
sounds like total bollocks

I thought this was a Professional Pilot network... But ok:
YES THEY CAN AND THIS WAS CLEAR FROM DAY1.....

And it is not
"can they do that"
but
"I didnt realise I voted for this and only now start to realize how the real world works ? I have no f@cking clue about international traffic rights, my politicians lied to me as they knew but didnt tell me, my newspapers never told me honestly how the real world works and I believed lying Nigel who buggered off the day after the vote and realized what sh!t he had created"

So in short: THIS WAS CLEAR FROM DAY 1 SO CALL YOUR BL@@DY MP AND MOAN TO THEM AS THEY HAVE LIED TO YOU, NOBODY ELSE.

Ps: re negotiations: your politicians never told you it have never been NEGOTIATIONS. Under article 50 you have 6 (six) scenarios and you pick one. Your government was aware of this and has had 2 (TWO) year to pick one but they keep telling you we go back to Brussel to negotiate.... Lies, lies and politics... But hey keep dreaming of Rule Brittania and calling it project fear..


Rant over

[SMT Member]

The elephant in the room is BA and trans-atlantic traffic rights. Divesting enough shares off IAG to make it 51% EU owned and controlled is a big task as it is, made no less complicated by having a single non-EU/non-UK shareholder owning than 20% of IAG (Qatar Airways). However, finding a way to make BA 51% UK owned, whilst simultaneously finding a way to have Iberia, Level, Aer Lingus and Vueling 51% EU owned and controlled, is an impossible task. Put simply, IAG can't be EU and UK controlled at the same time. One could come up with a construction where the individual airlines retain separate ownership, but that would also spell the end for the IAG umbrella.

If BA is less than 51% UK owned and controlled post brexit, transatlantic traffic rights to the US is in serious jeopardy. If IAG is less than 51% EU owned and controlled, Vueling, Iberia, Level and Aer Lingus cannot operate intra-EU flights, which represents 90% of their combined operations.

One possible solution could be to take BA out of IAG completely, with all the competitive disadvantages that would bring. At this point in time, that seems like one of a very few possible scenarios.

What this will undoubtedly mean is, that if you're an airline employee working for BA, your future is in serious jeopardy. Then again, the same can be said for almost every UK based employee and business owner.

[Aso]

This was the reason why KLM is still technically a Dutch company too (much to the annoyance of the French and the holding in Paris..) They have a structure that ensure that for traffic right reasons they are Dutch. Took a while to set up and is not easy to replicate for BA in case for a No deal I guess but then I assume they have spend a LOT of money on this already at IAG board level to find a way out of this mess...

[Aso]

Bit harsh, innit ?

But hey, at least you gonna save a ton on payments towards the EU, so the NHS will be a shining example of a health system within weeks from Brexit.

But no airlines to fly the new NHS staff from abroad into the UK :D :D

Harsh? No sheer stupidity of the Brexiteers :ugh:

[ATNotts]

And Thomas Cook plc? Owning Thomas Cook Scandinavia, Condor and Thomas Cook Balearics?
How are they going to demonstrate European ownership?

Thomas Cook are German owned surely, so no problem there, except perhaps with long haul from UK to USA.

[Denti]

Thomas Cook are German owned surely, so no problem there, except perhaps with long haul from UK to USA.
Thomas Cook was originally a british company, nothing to do with germany. No idea about the nationality of their shareholders, which is after all the problem. But even so, as a british company, they will not be able to own european airlines like Condor Flugdienst in Germany (which is currently owned by TC), unless they change to become a european one. Which then might mean problems for their UK airline.

That said, TUI used to be a german owned business (originally called Preussag), and still is based in Hannover, Lower Saxony, Germany. Since a quarter of that is owned by a russian Oligarch, they might need to work hard on the rest of their shareholders.

[calypso]

Most countries (including the EU) require national airlines to be both owned AND controlled by nationals of that country. That means that the majority of directors must be of that nationality too. Quite a problem for ALL UK airlines right now

[safelife]

Correct, EASA calls it Ownership and Control.
Word here is Lufthansa hired a bunch of high profile lawyers to study the case of critical airlines in terms of non-EU Ownership or Control, mostly IAG airlines, Ryanair, easyJet; and the day after Brexit (but only then) call for for rules to be strictly enforced, to gain an advantage of the situation.

[KelvinD]

Most countries (including the EU) require national airlines to be both owned AND controlled by nationals of that country. That means that the majority of directors must be of that nationality too. Quite a problem for ALL UK airlines right now
Doesn't that then cause problems for airlines such as KLM, Brussels, Swiss, Austrian etc?

[Skyjob]

No because they are majority EU owned, like UK airlines currently are.
It goes South when a country leaves the EU and their main shareholders are other EU interests, or in this case UK shareholders wishing to retain access to EU rights after leaving the EU

[Denti]

Correct, EASA calls it Ownership and Control.
Word here is Lufthansa hired a bunch of high profile lawyers to study the case of critical airlines in terms of non-EU Ownership or Control, mostly IAG airlines, Ryanair, easyJet; and the day after Brexit (but only then) call for for rules to be strictly enforced, to gain an advantage of the situation.

They have experience with that, they tried that on Air Berlin earlier as well, arguing that Etihad was controlling them although they only owned slightly below 30%. In that case it worked in the first instance, and got revoked in a higher court.

Doesn't that then cause problems for airlines such as KLM, Brussels, Swiss, Austrian etc?

I believe, as all those airlines are within European Common Aviation Area based on EU single market regulations which switzerland and norway joined, it doesn't. Although in the case of Swiss and Lufthansa i believe they do not own Swiss outright, but rather via a quite complicated construct that ensures majority swiss ownership, and Lufty assured that both the switzerland and austrian government assured in their bilateral traffic right agreements that the ownership structure of Swiss and Austrian was recognised or rather waived by their counterparts. However, to negotiate something like that requires time and quite a big political intervention, i can see that happen in the case of IAG, not so much with easyJet, Norwegian or Ryanair.

[racedo]

Most countries (including the EU) require national airlines to be both owned AND controlled by nationals of that country. That means that the majority of directors must be of that nationality too. Quite a problem for ALL UK airlines right now

Not in the EU as any EU national can own an airline in another EU country, no country can enact a law to prevent it because that is contrary to the Freedom of movement.

[calypso]

In this case the EU acts as one country through the Common Aviation Area. I though that was implicit in my statement. The UK will become a third country hence this discussion

[clipstone1]

When the rule came in, many years ago, there were exemptions for airlines who were already majority owned outside of the EU (2 UK airlines at that time spring to mind, Britannia Airways, which was 100% ownbed by the Thomson Corporation in Canada and Monarch Airlines which was 100% owned in Switzerland)

That ownership per permitted to continue (since they could force the business to find new owners) but if any ownership change was to occur subsequently then majority ownership had to be within the EU.

One would hope that for the UK based airlines, those similar rules are agreed as part of BREXIT. (and yes Thomas Cook is a UK PLC, therefore Condor for example is 100% owned by a UK parent currently. Of course what we don't know is the % of TCPLC shareholders who are EU based but not UK based, it may be they still ahve over 50% EU shareholding without any change.

[KelvinD]

Most countries (including the EU) require national airlines to be both owned AND controlled by nationals of that country.
It was use of the word "nationals" that had me wondering, hence my comment/question.
Should that now read as "EU owned" or do we accept the EU is,in essence, taking on the mantle of a nation?

[racedo]

In this case the EU acts as one country through the Common Aviation Area. I though that was implicit in my statement. The UK will become a third country hence this discussion

There are no EU Nationals hence the point I made. UK will be a third country but I was focusing on the EU bit.

[infrequentflyer789]

There are no EU Nationals hence the point I made. UK will be a third country but I was focusing on the EU bit.

For the EU rules the definition is probably "EU citizens" - EU citizenship arrived with Maastricht Treaty.

The EU is not (yet) a single nation so you are correct that "EU nationals" doesn't make sense, strictly, however "National" and "Citizen" are often used interchangeably and are actually synonyms in various thesauri.

[22/04]

I don't think the issue is whether UK nationals wil be able to go to Spain for their holidays. They will. Both EU and UK airlines will be able to

The issue is that because many "UK" airlines will wish to fly within the EU as well at the UK they will need to have a majority EU ownership status. So to preserve their business they may (EasyJet has I think) become majority EU owned. They are not really changing anything- it is the UK that has- they continue to be EU owned bit can't have their majority shareholding in the UK (which has left the club) anymore.

It poses a bit of a problem for IAG and British Airways may get caught up in divorce proceedings largely because of politics. It will be a bit amusing if "British Airways" is an EU owned and majority shareholder company.

Of course the UK will probably insist that British carriers are 51% UK owned- then expect British Airways and the other IAG companies to reflect different shareholding and an airline not flying within Europe (to from the UK) to have a British Identity. There aren't many of those at present (Eastern, Loganair, BMI Regional etc and for the moment Flybe?)

What a self inflicted mess. .

[22/04]

OOps not BMI Regional - they fly within Europe

[t1grm]

I thought this was a Professional Pilot network... But ok:
YES THEY CAN AND THIS WAS CLEAR FROM DAY1.....

And it is not
"can they do that"
but
"I didnt realise I voted for this and only now start to realize how the real world works ? I have no f@cking clue about international traffic rights, my politicians lied to me as they knew but didnt tell me, my newspapers never told me honestly how the real world works and I believed lying Nigel who buggered off the day after the vote and realized what sh!t he had created"

So in short: THIS WAS CLEAR FROM DAY 1 SO CALL YOUR BL@@DY MP AND MOAN TO THEM AS THEY HAVE LIED TO YOU, NOBODY ELSE.

Ps: re negotiations: your politicians never told you it have never been NEGOTIATIONS. Under article 50 you have 6 (six) scenarios and you pick one. Your government was aware of this and has had 2 (TWO) year to pick one but they keep telling you we go back to Brussel to negotiate.... Lies, lies and politics... But hey keep dreaming of Rule Brittania and calling it project fear..


Rant over

Or maybe people don't see the dropping of a few intra-EU flights run by UK airlines so a handful of money grabbing pilots can keep their six figure salaries as the main driver behind Brexit. Assuming you work for a UK airline nice to see you hold 52% of your customers in such contempt. I assume you announce this to them upon boarding. Your final statement is beyond deluded.

[22/04]

It isn’t a few and it isn’t just pilots. As a shareholder I don’t want to give away a substantial part of the businesssnd hence my dividend for some outdated political dream - just as well I won’t have to. As I said there aren’t many UK airlines - not currently British Airways, EasyJet, TUI, Virgin Atlantic so which UK airline are you taliking of.

[Denti]

What does the UK/US open sky agreement say about ownership and control? The US said early on in the negotiations that they require the standard, which means BA et al need to be 50,1% owned by UK entities to fall under that agreement. Now idea how the final text reflects that, haven't really followed the talks about that.

[oldart]

Talk about a minefield! Simple question, where does this leave Easyjet Switzerland after Brexit? EG. flight from Edinburgh to Stuttgart.

[weemonkey]

But no airlines to fly the new NHS staff from abroad into the UK :D :D

Harsh? No sheer stupidity of the Brexiteers :ugh:

Don't forget all the other insults you left out just for clarity...

[Denti]

Talk about a minefield! Simple question, where does this leave Easyjet Switzerland after Brexit? EG. flight from Edinburgh to Stuttgart.
Interesting, however, from the EU side possible. Swiss airlines can fly from EU countries into third countries, they can fly from one EU country to another one, but they cannot fly (under their own flight number, but they can as wet lease) fly domestic flights in any EU country. In this case it would depend on any traffic right agreement between the EU and the UK as a third country.

[clipstone1]

I think the only major UK airline that flies to the USA will be Thomas Cook Airlines UK Ltd, no one else with regular US flights is majority UK owned are they?

[hec7or]

Assuming you work for a UK airline nice to see you hold 52% of your customers in such contempt.

UK airlines fly Europeans too so where does this %age come from?

[Yobo]

I think the only major UK airline that flies to the USA will be Thomas Cook Airlines UK Ltd, no one else with regular US flights is majority UK owned are they?

They don't have to be majority owned.

Authorization

Each Party, on receipt of applications from an airline of the other Party, in the form and manner prescribed for operating authorizations and technical permissions, shall grant appropriate authorizations and permissions with minimum procedural delay, provided:

a. except as provided in Annex 1, substantial ownership and effective control of that airline are vested in the other Party, nationals of that Party, or both;

Annex 1

Concerning Additional Matters Related to Ownership and Control of UK Airlines

An airline of the United Kingdom that was authorized by the Department of Transportation as of November 28, 2018, shall be deemed to satisfy the ownership and control standards of Articles 3(a) and 4(1)(b) of the Agreement, provided that:

a. substantial ownership of the airline remains vested in the United Kingdom, one or more States that were party to the European Economic Area Agreement as of November 28, 2018, and continue to be such a party, nationals of one or more of these States, or a combination thereof, provided that any such State is party to a modern liberal air transport agreement with the United States that is being applied;

[Kerosene Kraut]

In today's world of the Chinas, the Indias, the Asia Pacifics and the Donalds we need to unite to play some role ourselves. Going back to regional mode will not help as there is no more Empire.

[Kerosene Kraut]

Whenever you do international business you need to find compromises with your partners. You don't escape this reality whether you like it or not or with or without the EU. Just look at "neutral" Switzerland or even "isolated" North Korea.

I find isolationism especially strange to come from aviation related people.

Maybe this time we should rebrand BA to become BOAC?:cool:

[SaulGoodman]

We need to stop down-playing the UK, which is the 5th largest economy in the world with a global financial centre.

It’s ok, we will actually survive outside an unelected bureaucratic entity, that will only ever enforce greater control.


GDP per capita the UK is only number 22. Behind all the other Western European countries. Behind the French....

But whatever. This is about ownership of airlines. ALL of the UK airlines are against Brexit.

[Kerosene Kraut]

Even EU airlines are that are to keep most of their market and their privileges within the EU.

[777JRM]

GDP per capita the UK is only number 22. Behind all the other Western European countries. Behind the French....

But whatever. This is about ownership of airlines. ALL of the UK airlines are against Brexit.

‘The United Kingdom, with a $2.62 trillion GDP is the fifth-largest economy in the world.’

The per capita figures show that, relative to say Singapore or Qatar, the UK is getting over-crowded and is becoming less productive.


Where is your proof that ALL UK airlines are against Brexit?

[Global_Global]

Where is your proof that ALL UK airlines are against Brexit?

Easyjet: doesnt want Brexit
Ryanair (well almost English) doesnt want Brexit
IAG errr BA doesnt want Brexit
Virgin: Doesnt want Brexit
FlyBE: err read Virgin
Jet2: Not sure but Europe becomes VERY expensive for their pax with the way the pound is going

It’s ok, we will actually survive outside an unelected bureaucratic entity, that will only ever enforce greater control. Well let's take EASA as an example: before Brexit 30% of the work and rules was the result of UK staff and CAA involvement. After Brexit: no more say by the UK but you will still have to follow the rules as set by EASA AND still pay to be part of EASA but cannot vote anymore... :cool: Smart thinking! :p

[777JRM]

Easyjet: doesnt want Brexit
Ryanair (well almost English) doesnt want Brexit
IAG errr BA doesnt want Brexit
Virgin: Doesnt want Brexit
FlyBE: err read Virgin
Jet2: Not sure but Europe becomes VERY expensive for their pax with the way the pound is going

Well let's take EASA as an example: before Brexit 30% of the work and rules was the result of UK staff and CAA involvement. After Brexit: no more say by the UK but you will still have to follow the rules as set by EASA AND still pay to be part of EASA but cannot vote anymore... :cool: Smart thinking! :p

EASA is comprosed of 32 nations.
You do not need to be in the EU to be in EASA.

So the UK can remain in EASA after Brexit, if it chooses to do so.

As you state, EASA needs the work that the UK contributes, so why would the UK suddenly have no say?
It may lose voting rights, but that would only be 1/32nd overall influence, not a lot to lose.

The CAA would simply align itself to those EASA rules that it considers sensible and relevant.

(By the way, you didn’t prove that ALL UK airlines don’t want Brexit!
That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence).

[cats_five]

<snip>
(By the way, you didn’t prove that ALL UK airlines don’t want Brexit!
That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence).

Can you provide the name of one that's in favour?

[777JRM]

Well, Willie Walsh doesn’t seem to care, but that doesn’t mean IAG employees want in or out.

it is a pointless discussion since an airline is made up of many people, some Brexiteers, some Remoaners.

Perhaps the managers don’t want to do the paperwork after Brexit.

[Yobo]

Can they actually do this?

Sorry, forgot to answer that the first time round. They can. Re the intra Europe flights, the relevant provisions from Chicago:

Each contracting State shall have the right to refuse permission to the aircraft of other contracting States to take on in its territory passengers, mail and cargo carried for remuneration or hire and destined for another point within its territory.

That isn't the hard part. This is the hard part:

Each contracting State undertakes not to enter into any arrangements which specifically grants any such privilege on an exclusive basis to any other State or an airline of any other State, and not to obtain any such exclusive privilege from any other State.

The UK can't ask for special and the EU can't grant. Is an all or nothing proposition. Why a great number of states are rather strict with the cabotage.

[TwinAisle]

Post Brexsh*t, UK AOC holders will need to show they are majority owned by UK nationals or entities.

No one notice Virgin Atlantic? Soon to be 49% owned by Delta, 31% owned by AF/KL and only 20% owned by the UK entity Virgin...

Whoops.

[safelife]

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/75292-eu-airlines-to-get-7-months-to-adjust-ownership-post-brexit

[Asturias56]

Well, Willie Walsh doesn’t seem to care, but that doesn’t mean IAG employees want in or out.

it is a pointless discussion since an airline is made up of many people, some Brexiteers, some Remoaners.

Perhaps the managers don’t want to do the paperwork after Brexit.


So you can't name one in favor of BREXIT? Do the decent thing and admit it ................

May be the workers are concerned about their jobs post Brexit?? After all, they'll be the first to go - the management will be required "to manage the situation"

[777JRM]

So you can't name one in favor of BREXIT? Do the decent thing and admit it ................

May be the workers are concerned about their jobs post Brexit?? After all, they'll be the first to go - the management will be required "to manage the situation"

Stop the scaremongering.
Maybe you think we will be left in frozen darkness after March 29th?

Well, it could be worse; we could still be in the EU.


i admit I cannot prove a UK airline backs Brexit.

Yet, as stated earlier, no-one here can prove ALL UK airlines are against it.
Where is this proof?

Anyway, a democratic decision has been made, get over it; people can actually have a different, legitimate, reason that is in opposition to your own!

The choice has been made; we need to get on with it, and consider that actually being a normal country outside an unelected bureaucratic dictatorship can be a good thing, and that we can be optimistic about the opportunities in the future, free from an ever-deepening centralised controlling power that puts it’s own interests before those of the nations it claims to represent.

[TwinAisle]

an unelected bureaucratic dictatorship

Really?

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x774/img_0397_c8481c478e9c2a9ad8b7076492d73532f9c04b88.jpg
Go on, admit it, 777JRM - you're Jacob Rees-Mogg :)

[777JRM]

You’re funny.

The Queen is not a dictator.
Look at the work she does for the nation.

Worth 50p a year?

And you would prefer to pay a lot more for that staggering drunk Juncker?

Which of the 5 EU presidents does the best work for the UK?

[cats_five]

<snip>
i admit I cannot prove a UK airline backs Brexit.

Yet, as stated earlier, no-one here can prove ALL UK airlines are against it.
Where is this proof?
<snip>

Providing the name of just one UK airline that backs Brexit would make it impossible to prove all are against it. Sometimes it's not possible to prove X, but it is possible to disprove X by proving Y.

[TwinAisle]

The Queen is not a dictator.

I didn't say she was.

Worth 50p a year?

Of course. What's your point?

And you would prefer to pay a lot more for that staggering drunk Juncker?

Juncker earns about €306k a year. Between the 512m of us in the EU, that's a twentieth of a cent each. So he is costing a lot LESS than the Queen. But thanks for playing.

Which of the 5 EU presidents does the best work for the UK?

They all work for all of us. They head up different institutions, and they are all elected.

[TwinAisle]

This is a thought provoking article. From someone who knows what he is talking about....

No Deal - No Flights? (https://www.aerosociety.com/news/no-deal-no-flights/?dm_i=4OGU%2CH72Z%2C2ZCC7E%2C1Z8EL%2C1&fbclid=IwAR1QhJJjJKvlPOBV0J77Q7k5yeekntK4NqUiVyuXNUg8ngfDUCI YAykYti8)

[777JRM]

A good article.
Hopefully the politicians will get on with it promptly, like the UK-US agreement back in November.

[BluSdUp]

Indeed an interesting read.
I can see why Willie Walsh is so cool!
And MOL not!

[occasional]

Really illustrates the idiotic way in which both sides have carried out the negotiations.

[sjimmy]

My 2 cents,

no bone in it but!
the UK GDP now has nothing to do with GDP post Brexit.
the UK GDP now is because of the EU whether you like it or not!
I sincerely hope UK GDP will sustain after Brexit, but sadly the signs are not good. That is based on numerous indicators.
Disclaimer amateur investor talking.

[TwinAisle]

We actually get a whole lot of benefits from being a member, rather than just the raw fiscal numbers you quote.

The CBI estimates that the net benefit of EU membership is worth 4-5% of GDP to the UK, or £62bn-£78bn per year. In 2014, the ONS reported that the EU, which is the world's biggest economy, accounted for 44.6 per cent of all UK exports of goods and services, and 53.2 per cent of the UK's imports of goods and services.

[Wickerbill]

Fairly negative thread drift into should we stay or go. Think most of the comments belong in the other forums - keep this channel open for hard facts / informed opinions on how airline ownership will or will not be affected post Brexit and, I guess, its potential consequence for us involved with it.Looks like we have nine months grace in any case....

[Denti]

Fairly negative thread drift into should we stay or go. Think most of the comments belong in the other forums - keep this channel open for hard facts / informed opinions on how airline ownership will or will not be affected post Brexit and, I guess, its potential consequence for us involved with it.Looks like we have nine months grace in any case....

Amen.

However, just 7 months for airline ownership. 9 months for licenses and approvals. 12 months for traffic rights. All of that can be revoked unilaterally by the EU, it is granted, not a right. It is basically the EU protecting its own interest, and those do not necessarily have to align with a third country that reneges on internationally binding agreements.

[BluSdUp]

Slight drift.
The IAA has confirmed a process whereby they will issue a replacement Irish medical certificate which will become valid in case of a no-deal Brexit.
The next medical has to be with a EU approved AME.
After a hard Brexit any UK AME can apply for EASA approval.
Good to see at least someone has a plan!
Cudos to IAA

A Healthy Day to All
Regards
Cpt B

[SMT Member]

The point being, that 1/28 is little influence, and as the EU continues on it’s further integration plans, this factor will diminish.
It is amazing how other countries succeed outside the EU (Norway and Switzerland come first and second in the Legatum Prosperity Index), we should stop selling ourselves short, consider the opportunities, and try it.

Apologies for thread creep, back to the aviation.....



The UK does not stand alone in the EU. She has her allies, and has traditionally been able to form a lot of how the EU works to her satisfaction. The Netherlands and Denmark, among others, are not only sad to see the UK leave because of the loss of business, but also because they will lose a key alliance partner.

Further integration will not diminish the influence of the EU parliament, quite the contrary. And before you say 'Germany rules anyway', do make notice of the recent decision on Nord Stream II, which says any future negotiations shall be between Russia and the EU, rather between Russian and individual EU nations. This was decided much to the consternation of Germany but, vitally, it removes a strategic advantage from Russia, as they are no longer able to manipulate individual nations by playing them against the other. Nor can they threaten to cut off the supply to a single nation (expensive but affordable if there's strategic value to it), as such an act would mean they'll have to cut off all of Europe (equal to signing their own economic death warrant).

As for the success of Norway and Switzerland; one is a nation of 4,5 million people sitting on the largest gas reserves in Europe. The other has centuries of tradition for neutrality and a safe place for rich people to park their money. Do try buying a beer and burger in Norway, or booking a hotel room in Geneva, then get back to us.

[777JRM]

Have done both actually, and similar to London prices!

Both countries have the financial freedom to apply whatever measures are relevant to their own individual economies, unlike those in the euro, such as Greece for example.

[22/04]

Have done both actually, and similar to London prices!

Bit not similar to Middlesbrough or Preston probably

[777JRM]

Probably correct.
But I did find a relatively cheap Irish bar in Geneva!

[Asturias56]

I note the "relatively" - care to share the address??? :O

Norway - always either bloody expensive or outrageously expensive - but if you have so much energy to sell........

[lilpilot]

Slight drift.
The IAA has confirmed a process whereby they will issue a replacement Irish medical certificate which will become valid in case of a no-deal Brexit.
The next medical has to be with a EU approved AME.
After a hard Brexit any UK AME can apply for EASA approval.
Good to see at least someone has a plan!
Cudos to IAA

A Healthy Day to All
Regards
Cpt B

Can you elaborate to which cases does the "replacement medical" issued apply to?

[Arthur1815]

Amen.

However, just 7 months for airline ownership. 9 months for licenses and approvals. 12 months for traffic rights. All of that can be revoked unilaterally by the EU, it is granted, not a right. It is basically the EU protecting its own interest, and those do not necessarily have to align with a third country that reneges on internationally binding agreements.

What is the reference for the 9 month extension for licenses? I cannot find anything to confirm that Uk issued EASA licenses will be valid beyond 29 March to fly on an EASA AOC.

[Denti]

What is the reference for the 9 month extension for licenses? I cannot find anything to confirm that Uk issued EASA licenses will be valid beyond 29 March to fly on an EASA AOC.
It is not yet put into law or a concrete letter to stakeholders, but it is a proposal by the EU Commission and therefore is very likely to be implemented.

See European Commission - PRESS RELEASES - Press release - Brexit: European Commission implements ?no-deal? Contingency Action Plan in specific sectors (http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-6851_en.htm) under Transport.

[PAX_Britannica]

It is not yet put into law or a concrete letter to stakeholders, but it is a proposal by the EU Commission and therefore is very likely to be implemented.
The press release states:
This is subject to the UK conferring equivalent rights to EU air carriers, as well as the UK ensuring conditions of fair competition.
I'm not currently aware of a UK response. Does anyone on PPRuNe know of a response?

I am concerned that gov.uk might forget to respond. It does have a lot to do, and too little time, in the event of no deal.

[BONES_]

It is not yet put into law or a concrete letter to stakeholders, but it is a proposal by the EU Commission and therefore is very likely to be implemented.

See European Commission - PRESS RELEASES - Press release - Brexit: European Commission implements ?no-deal? Contingency Action Plan in specific sectors (http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-6851_en.htm) under Transport.

Hi Denti,

Unless i missed something, I’m not sure pilot licences are covered by the EC proposal you mentioned.

this is the annex attached for aviation
https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/894-aviation-aspects-annex.pdf

I can’t find anything else about pilot licences or certificates related to EU 1178/2011 (aircrew regulation - annex I to IV).

[Denti]

Hmm, I have to say up til now i mainly did read the press releases on this issue. The only thing i can find is Article 9 in https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/893-aviation-connectivity.pdf, where it states that licenses and certificates of competency will still be valid, however only for the use within UK airlines. Which is of course a concern for those working in the EU on UK licenses. Which might be a reason why the orange bunch switched their european based pilots to austrian licenses (except german nationals who stay on german licenses).