PIA - fake pilots and cabin crew

[crewmeal]

It seems some 'crew members' have been rumbled with their qualifications. Pilots yes but do canin crew really need a degree? Maybe in common sense yes.

Pakistan International Airlines fires pilots with fake school degrees | Arab News (http://www.arabnews.com/node/1428371/business-economy)

[meleagertoo]

It seems some 'crew members' have been rumbled with their qualifications. Pilots yes but do canin crew really need a degree? Maybe in common sense yes.

What on earth is a "High School Degree"?

[pattern_is_full]

Higher Secondary School Certificate - awarded by examination.

OK, OK, it's a "diploma" not a "degree" - but Pakistan is an "education-proud" culture, and we are talking about a translation (mental or written) from Urdu to English.

What on earth is "anal retentive?" Adjective: Excessively orderly and fussy. A person who pays such attention to detail that it becomes an obsession and may be an annoyance to others.

;)

[Euclideanplane]

What on earth is "anal retentive?" Adjective: Excessively orderly and fussy. A person who pays such attention to detail that it becomes an obsession and may be an annoyance to others.

;)

As in anyone who has difficulty figuring out that "canin crew" does not refer to support dogs for the pilots.

[er340790]

Perhaps, as well as doing alcohol tests, pilots should be subject to random GMAT tests too(???) 😁

[Ascend Charlie]

My degree says B.A. (Calcutta) (failed). Is that good enough?

[Capn Bloggs]

Perish the thought, failing a degree!!

[ve3id]

Perish the thought, failing a degree!!
Well, I don't know much, but as a professor of electronics engineering technology (retired), I do know that I have seen more than my share of supposed electronics graduates from that part of the world that would have filled the lab with the smell of burning flesh if I hadn't stopped them turning on the soldering iron while they held the wrong end!

[krismiler]

Airlines in the USA usually require a college degree for pilots, students are getting into huge debts to obtain qualifications which are virtually worthless when it comes to getting a job where as a decent technical qualification would cost less, have them employed sooner and earning more money.

Some third world countries degrees wouldn't be at the same level as a western high school certificate. In the Philippines, having been to college and failed still makes you college level when it comes to employment.

[4EvahLearning]

To lie about the first level of education - the High School Certificate/Diploma/Degree or whatever else it is called, calls into question every other qualification you have. If you have failed and lied to say you passed that is one thing, but to have obtained a fake qualification is fraudulent. No other piece of paper you hold can be trusted to be true.

[Longtimer]

To lie about the first level of education - the High School Certificate/Diploma/Degree or whatever else it is called, calls into question every other qualification you have. If you have failed and lied to say you passed that is one thing, but to have obtained a fake qualification is fraudulent. No other piece of paper you hold can be trusted to be true.

Have they been found to be able to carry out their duties despite the lack of a degree?

[4EvahLearning]

Have they been found to be able to carry out their duties despite the lack of a degree?

I nearly mentioned that in my post but decided that everyone on PPrune would know regardless of skill, the regulatory bodies and insurance companies require bona fide qualifications, which in our world, means bits of paper (or whatever form it takes these days) proving the said skill set has been demonstrated and the theory, which covers off everything that is not demonstrable, is known.

It would be a shame if everything they did since high school was legitimate and to lose their careers over a fraud committed when they were but children. It's just that it brings into question everything they have done since, legitimate or not.

[krismiler]

Pakistan’s next door neighbour India, has an unfortunate history regarding fake licenses with students receiving substantial payment discounts for logbook hours which whilst not actually flown will still be verified by the school if checked. A newly qualified CPL holder might have 200hrs logged but have only spent less than 100 in the air.

This is much easier to detect as it will soon manifest itself during further training, or out on the line when incidents start occurring.

[judebrad]

It the same in the I.T world too.

[parabellum]

This is much easier to detect as it will soon manifest itself during further training, or out on the line when incidents start occurring.

Incidents start occurring like a great smouldering hole in the ground where there was once 400 passengers, a crew and a 350million dollar aircraft.

[Four Turbo]

When I was in the RAF recruiting world we had a long list of 'equivalents' when overseas qualifications were produced. I seem to remember that an Indian BSc (failed) was equivalent to five 'O' levels!

[beamender99]

It the same in the I.T world too.
Meaning ?
I know of someone who left school at 16 with no qualifications /certificates and spent 35 years in the IT industry from programmer upwards.
He gained no paper qualifications for the job but was well respected for the work he did.
Of course he was not allowed to risk passengers lives.

[bafanguy]

Airlines in the USA usually require a college degree for pilots, students are getting into huge debts to obtain qualifications which are virtually worthless when it comes to getting a job where as a decent technical qualification would cost less, have them employed sooner and earning more money.

Precisely...and much debated here. At least in the US career-airline job hunting, people are driven/forced to play the game by the rules set out by the HR "suits".

Some people feel this will change in the near future; I have no idea. I've seen Delta declare unequivocally that they'll "never" drop the requirement for a 4-year college degree...even if it's a degree in Sanskrit. (yep, flew with an FO who had such a degree.)

[flown-it]

I have 15K+ hours, Type rated on B737, B757, B767, A319 and G-V, G-550. Also check airman on the 737 and Gulfstreams. Applied for a job with a company which operated all those types. No interview even though I had a letter of recommendation. Reason? I do not have a degree. So a degree in basket weaving is better than half a century of accident free flying?

[Thrush]

I’ve survived not having a degree. It’s merely a measure of your “leaning ability” but there are other yardsticks which can be used. Such as IQ testing. Much as I hate the HR bollox it could be used if one has no degree or “college education”, whatever that is.... I think having passed ATPL exams is also an indicator. Certainly in Europe it used to be the case prior to EASA that the ATPL was equivalent to a first degree (EASA exams are easier) Or, as I’ve been told, you can just buy a degree off t’interweb.

[Capn Bloggs]

Not many Marlon fans here, eh AC? ;)

[Icarus2001]

It’s merely a measure of your “leaning ability” but there are other yardsticks which can be used I am pretty good at leaning. Is there a specific unit during the degree course about leaning?

[The Old Swedish]

The airline has canceled the pilots’ licenses, Tajwar added.

How can an Airline "cancel" a pilots license? Just curious.

[VORDME2]

it took me a year of hard study to get a ATPL In Europe 1979... it took me a week at the swimming pool to study the FAA ATPL... F27/bae146/B737/757/767/777 and still flying.II’ve survived not having a degree. It’s merely a measure of your “leaning ability” but there are other yardsticks which can be used. Such as IQ testing. Much as I hate the HR bollox it could be used if one has no degree or “college education”, whatever that is.... I think having passed ATPL exams is also an indicator. Certainly in Europe it used to be the case prior to EASA that the ATPL was equivalent to a first degree (EASA exams are easier) Or, as I’ve been told, you can just buy a degree off t’interweb.

[DaveReidUK]

How can an Airline "cancel" a pilots license? Just curious.

It didn't. Explained here (https://nation.com.pk/30-Dec-2018/pia-fires-three-pilots-50-crew-members).

[The Ancient Geek]

A lot has changed over the last 50mumble years, when I were a lad maybe 2 or 3 percent went to university. Nowadays anything that called itself a technical college now calls itself a university and degrees are everywhere. Has the level of intelligence changed ? Highly unlikely.
In reality the only real change is that the system now keeps youngsters in school for longer in order to keep them out of the jobs market to reduce the unemployment statistics.

[Dan_Brown]

Is anyone on board able to inform me and other unwashed, why a degree is needed to operate an a/c??

You are born with ability. You don't learn ability, work ethic or aviation skills in a classroom.

I've known youngsters, ag pilots for e.g.,with no academic qualifications whatsoever, would be better pilots, with outstanding stick and rudder skills. More so I would imagine, than the vast majority of airline pilots out there today.

Operating the automatic equipment? I could take a 12 year old out of an amusement arcade that would be able to do the job just as good, as any of us, with minimal tuition..

You need to start young in this business. the younger the better. One of the above retired from ag flying at 30 after 10 years at it and finished his career on heavy 4 engine jets. Sitting in a lecture hall studying for something that has no relevance to aviation, can waste several years, young years when your ass could be strapped to a a/c seat.

[bafanguy]

Is anyone on board able to inform me and other unwashed, why a degree is needed to operate an a/c??

Sure, I can:

Because the "suits" who decide who gets interviewed and hired SAY it's required; it's just that simple.

They'll have a rationale for this position (they're never without a rationale). It doesn't have to make sense in the real world because it's their game and their rules. Play their game or get out of the way of those who will. There are legions of those who will.

I assure you the degree requirement is merely one facet of the often illogical stance of the HR cubicle droids.

[I have two degrees...BFD :rolleyes: ]

[Dan_Brown]

Well, I don't know much, but as a professor of electronics engineering technology (retired), I do know that I have seen more than my share of supposed electronics graduates from that part of the world that would have filled the lab with the smell of burning flesh if I hadn't stopped them turning on the soldering iron while they held the wrong end!

LOL, nice one. seen the same sort of thing when some have been asked to change a light bulb.

[Dan_Brown]

Incidents start occurring like a great smouldering hole in the ground where there was once 400 passengers, a crew and a 350million dollar aircraft.

You have AF447 in mind? The crew of that flight would have had academic qualifications, of that you can bet your life.

[4EvahLearning]

What most of you seem to be misreading is they were referring to High School degrees not university degrees. When did you last meet a pilot who didn't have a high school certificate or diploma? Maybe an old-timer but not someone from the last few decades I bet.

[bafanguy]

Anyone know why they want academics, apart from "Image" issues??

We're mostly The Blind Men and the Elephant on such issues since the HRs are mute on the fine points of their criteria and the subjectivity that goes with them.

A few answers are offered to that question. They seem to use achieving a 4-year degree as an indication of one's ability to learn in a defined time frame and/or proof of one's sticktoitiveness.

All this while studiously ignoring all the other items on a CV that also prove the same thing...and often with more applicability to the job's realities.

They may think there's some image aspect to it but to whom are they trying to sell this image...the traveling public who don't give a rat's about any of this ?

But...their game/their rules. Hard fact of life despite what those in the trenches think.

[Tech Guy]

Well, I don't know much, but as a professor of electronics engineering technology (retired), I do know that I have seen more than my share of supposed electronics graduates from that part of the world that would have filled the lab with the smell of burning flesh if I hadn't stopped them turning on the soldering iron while they held the wrong end!
It could also be argued that you deprived them of an excellent learning experience that could have a lasting affect on their future work abilities. :)
Having said that, I have also experienced the product of our own universities and met people that were totally out of their depth operating simple hand tools.

[theNotoriousPIC]

It's a simple question with a simple answer.

Why do airlines require that pilots have degrees? Because right now they can. If the shortage hits them hard enough and they are no longer able to fill the flight deck we'll see what they do. Personally I know a lot of regional pilots in the States hoping that this happens, until it does I wouldn't bet on it because the major airlines still have candidates lining up down the street and around the corner.

As a question to the European pilots here, do cadets in Ab Initio programs need a prior degree or do the airlines track their progress throughout training to see if he or she will be a decent fit for them?

[InfrequentFlier511]

A degree may not mean much, but integrity matters. Lying in your application isn't a good look.

[ironbutt57]

A degree may not mean much, but integrity matters. Lying in your application isn't a good look.

and yet how many people pad their hours and think thats "ok"

[tdracer]

A big part of the reason why US companies often require college degrees is that the rules regarding what you can ask a potential employee have become so restrictive. Several years ago when my supervisor was screening people for an opening in my group, he wanted me to sit in on the interview. In order to be allowed to do that, I had to take a class on what I could say, ask, or do during the interview. Questions that you could ask about the interviewee's background were heavily restricted.
So, since you're not allowed to ask many of the questions that might actually demonstrate the person's suitability for the job, they require a degree. It's a poor substitute, but the HR types figure it's better than nothing.

But lying about your qualifications is a pretty good bet to get you fired if you're found out.

[JohnDixson]

To expand the frame of reference, and support Dan Brown’s position, the US Army Warrant Officer Pilot program requires a high school diploma. Those young men and women fly aircraft like the Apache and the special ops versions of the CH-47 Chinook and UH-60 Blackhawk, at night, low level, in weather etc. Very sophisticated aircraft and operating in an uncontrolled, unfriendly environment, sometimes populated with unfriendly and armed people. They do just fine.

[ironbutt57]

A big part of the reason why US companies often require college degrees is that the rules regarding what you can ask a potential employee have become so restrictive. Several years ago when my supervisor was screening people for an opening in my group, he wanted me to sit in on the interview. In order to be allowed to do that, I had to take a class on what I could say, ask, or do during the interview. Questions that you could ask about the interviewee's background were heavily restricted.
So, since you're not allowed to ask many of the questions that might actually demonstrate the person's suitability for the job, they require a degree. It's a poor substitute, but the HR types figure it's better than nothing.

But lying about your qualifications is a pretty good bet to get you fired if you're found out.



the degree requirement was a carry-over from the "boys club" days of airline pilots being taken strictly from the military

[tdracer]

the degree requirement was a carry-over from the "boys club" days of airline pilots being taken strictly from the military

That may be a factor for pilots - my post was directed more generically at US businesses in general. Many companies require college degrees as a prerequisite - even when the degree is completely unrelated to the position being filled - as a method to partially compensate for the inability to ask meaningful questions.

[B2N2]

I have 15K+ hours, Type rated on B737, B757, B767, A319 and G-V, G-550. Also check airman on the 737 and Gulfstreams. Applied for a job with a company which operated all those types. No interview even though I had a letter of recommendation. Reason? I do not have a degree. So a degree in basket weaving is better than half a century of accident free flying?

Underwater basket weaving.
Type rated C525(s), 737 and 747
11,500hrs, hardly a scratch ever.
No degree and I’ll happily argue I’m a prime example as to why you wouldn’t need a degree.
Delta seems to think so.

[Reverserbucket]

As a question to the European pilots here, do cadets in Ab Initio programs need a prior degree or do the airlines track their progress throughout training to see if he or she will be a decent fit for them?
No, they do not. Some have a degree(s) but it's not requirement. Pre-course selection is used to identify candidates thought suitable for the employer, although student's are assessed throughout training in terms of technical competency of course. Unusual but occasionally the odd one or two don't make it through type-rating once exposed to the operators own trainers.

[AviatorDave]

A big part of the reason why US companies often require college degrees is that the rules regarding what you can ask a potential employee have become so restrictive. Several years ago when my supervisor was screening people for an opening in my group, he wanted me to sit in on the interview. In order to be allowed to do that, I had to take a class on what I could say, ask, or do during the interview. Questions that you could ask about the interviewee's background were heavily restricted.
So, since you're not allowed to ask many of the questions that might actually demonstrate the person's suitability for the job, they require a degree. It's a poor substitute, but the HR types figure it's better than nothing.

But lying about your qualifications is a pretty good bet to get you fired if you're found out.

Just out of interest: what are the questions you would have liked to ask, but were told not to ask?
I‘ve interviewed a lot of folks here in Europe and we always got down to business.

[Derfred]

Is anyone on board able to inform me and other unwashed, why a degree is needed to operate an a/c??


A degree isn’t needed to operate an aircraft.

But I think the question some are asking is why a degree is needed by some airlines to operate their aircraft.

An employer only has limited scope to analyse whether you will be able to become a competent operator of their aircraft, and a good employee.

At high school you are spoon fed. To gain a degree you must apply yourself in an unsupervised environment. If you can succeed at this, this is an indicator of your learning ability and self-discipline - attributes important of a good airline pilot.

It still doesn’t mean you will make a good pilot, that’s why there are other aspects to the application process, but it means you probably have at least some of the attributes required, and you will be a lower risk applicant.

The degree doesn’t usually even need to be in a related field, because it’s the attributes that are important, not any particular knowledge.

That doesn’t mean for one second that a non-degree applicant won’t be just as good, it’s just that the employer doesn’t know that at that point.

My employer doesn’t require a degree, but certainly looks favourably on applicants with one.

[tdracer]

Just out of interest: what are the questions you would have liked to ask, but were told not to ask?
I‘ve interviewed a lot of folks here in Europe and we always got down to business.

It's been long enough I don't recall details, but what I recall is that we were very limited in what we could ask about the persons past or their previous employment. Personal life was a big no-no.

[racedo]

A degree isn’t needed to operate an aircraft.

But I think the question some are asking is why a degree is needed by some airlines to operate their aircraft.

An employer only has limited scope to analyse whether you will be able to become a competent operator of their aircraft, and a good employee.

At high school you are spoon fed. To gain a degree you must apply yourself in an unsupervised environment. If you can succeed at this, this is an indicator of your learning ability and self-discipline - attributes important of a good airline pilot.

It still doesn’t mean you will make a good pilot, that’s why there are other aspects to the application process, but it means you probably have at least some of the attributes required, and you will be a lower risk applicant.

The degree doesn’t usually even need to be in a related field, because it’s the attributes that are important, not any particular knowledge.

That doesn’t mean for one second that a non-degree applicant won’t be just as good, it’s just that the employer doesn’t know that at that point.

My employer doesn’t require a degree, but certainly looks favourably on applicants with one.

Pretty much agree with that. A degree only proves you have the ability to attend some of the lectures and turn up for the exams. Lie on any of your qualifications then every single qualifcation then becomes suspect even if you obtained them correctly.

[Bloated Stomach]

Although what is being said is correct and work experience far outweighs academic experience, what is also correct is meeting the requirements of visa issue. A lot of the countries around the world have a mandatory requirement of a degree for employment visa issue.

[beamender99]

Although what is being said is correct and work experience far outweighs academic experience,
My experience many years ago in an IT environment. My company recruited from existing staff from any department who had the right aptitude and attitude.
The work environment was very good and so enjoyable producing real results.
Then there was a merger with a company who had always insisted on a degree for all staff recruited.
Many seemed to think that they were owed a job , did not work hard, had no common sense ( no real experience working with people) and thought they were above all others.
The result was the vast majority of the staff at the first company left for better jobs and I for one had to endure working with many who were promoted beyond their capability.
My children were brought up to be good communicators, were good learners but did not achieve top marks in their exams.
Both were quickly accepted to the very top universities in the UK and did well there. The both have very good jobs.