Ryanair pilot strike [Archive]

737 Jockey

5th Jul 2018, 11:14

Or you could say that all parties couldn’t have ‘succeded’ without the other, and that everyone should benefit from that ‘success’.

I think that conditions and fair treatment of staff is the most pertinent issue for Ryanair staff, rather than just cold hard cash. U.K. Pilots received circa 20% pay rise recently and yet still they leave in droves to other carriers. The irony here is that MOL hates spending his cash, yet most fixes are free i.e. goodwill, fair and transparent basing policy etc. For all his business acumen and hard-nosed negotiating, the man is a fool for creating these problems for himself. ��

Skyhigh_

5th Jul 2018, 11:31

Apparently they sent a proposal to the Union including fair and transparent basing policy however, they are not engaging with Ryr

gearlever

5th Jul 2018, 11:50

Ryanair crew could join pilots' strike action over pay and conditionshttps://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/jul/04/ryanair-crew-could-join-pilots-strike-action-over-pay-and-conditions

fox niner

5th Jul 2018, 14:45

MOL is the Pharaoh who built a pyramid called Ryanair. He used a few thousand workers to get it done. They slept in their cars at airport parking lots, waiting for their next shift hauling those stones up the ramp.

Luke258

5th Jul 2018, 15:13

Apparently they sent a proposal to the Union including fair and transparent basing policy however, they are not engaging with Ryr
Any source or proof? Most likely not.
Especially in Germany they claim to pay above their competitors and if you want a contract similar to tui fly they say it's too expensive. Wouldn't believe a word they say.

ShotOne

6th Jul 2018, 10:15

About time! And about time pilots in general woke up to the fact that you don't get what you deserve. You get what you negotiate!

beachbumflyer

6th Jul 2018, 16:30

Harry
And you could say some people suffer from Stockholm syndrome

BluSdUp

7th Jul 2018, 12:56

Dear Fellow Pilots!
World wide!
Are You ready to support this strike so we can all have a level playing field and good conditions.?
The time is NOW.

United we stand.
Regards
Cpt Blue
NF IFALPA ECA

SMT Member

9th Jul 2018, 06:01

'United we stand'.

You mean, like when Ryanair crew from one country goes on strike and their flying is taken over by Ryanair crews from other countries? That kind of united?

Get your own house in order first, then you can ask others for help!

Heathrow Harry

9th Jul 2018, 07:23

Harry
And you could say some people suffer from Stockholm syndrome

I can get there for £5 return due to MOL if that's what you mean.............

But, seriously, pilot action or threats thereof , have rarely been effective with any airline. I've always found it very odd that in the USA , where mass action is normally seen as "socialism", that the unions have managed to retain scope clauses that pilots elsewhere in the world can only dream of. I suspect it's because in there are always other carriers and pilots who will cheerfully take over the demand caused if Airline A is on strike. RyanAir can go on strike but the punters will switch to Easyjet or whatever without missing a beat - which isn't a great negotiating position

Landflap

9th Jul 2018, 09:15

Never liked the need for Unions but less than adept airline managers did, really, bring it on themselves. I joined the airline business as a Loader at LGW while pursuing the PPL route back in the glory days. In the Gents, someone had written on the door "Workers, UNITE to smash big business .". Someone with more of a brain etched, underneath, " Yeah, and then, who would YOU work for ?".

ShotOne

9th Jul 2018, 09:36

HH, despite all that I think you'll find a strike is exceptionally unwelcome by MOL or indeed any airline boss. As pilots we hold a very strong hand but collectively, we've played it feebly over the years. Except, as you rightly point out, in the States.

Elephant and Castle

9th Jul 2018, 09:40

But, seriously, pilot action or threats thereof , have rarely been effective with any airline

That is utter rubbish. Airlines sit up and listen when the threat of a strike is real and they do what they can to avoid it. Discussing the finer points of the power plays in industrial relations will take hundreds of pages but collective bargaining works and the stick behind collective bargaining is industrial action. That is a fact. Anything else is people putting their broader politics ahead of the realpolitik.

BluSdUp

9th Jul 2018, 09:53

I am not asking for help from you.
I am trying to get the big picture across!

Ever since I lost my job due to bankruptcy in 1999 I have been a Freelance contractor.
And the industry has gone down, rapidly after 9/11.

This is the first time in my 30 years there is any hope of permanent improvement.
As a member you should have a chat with you union rep and have him explain some basics to you before you post next time.
What RYR does has repercussions for the whole industry.
If RYR pilots fail in this , we are all heading for worse T/C.
Cpt B

SMT Member

9th Jul 2018, 10:00

BluSdUp

I think you're missing the point. I for one would be happy to support your fight for better T&C, but the work must start at home first. What I'm specifially referring to was the situation where CC in one country went on strike, but Ryanair solved this by moving employees from another country in to cover. As long as Ryanair employees don't put their foot down on such practice, then you'll be hard pressed securing the support of outsiders.

But all that's really besides the point. As an employment group few are more selfish than professional pilots in Europe. They'll happily take a low-paying job and thus undermine the conditions of everybody, as long as they secure an income to pay off their huge training debts. That, my friend, is sadly 'the big picture', and I've really no idea how to address that. Well, I do actually, but it won't fly because there will always be a cadre of selfish, short-sighted, young wannabe's who'll fly for pennies.

If anybody is responsible for the downward spiral of pilot condtions in Europe, it's the selfish pilots who accepted a tax-dodging employment scheme where they are 'self-employed' and 'contract' their services out to O'Leary. Once again, RYR staff need to lead the way and show both resolve, unity and testicular fortitude, only then can you hope for the help of others.

BluSdUp

9th Jul 2018, 10:23

His dudeness

9th Jul 2018, 10:52

SMT
Stop insulting RYR pilots.
The old guard that are now going on strike have plenty of fortitude, and children to prove it.
As for the pay to fly boys, I always was against that , but that is details and a prime example of how the RYR practices has spread!
The future , Son, and your terms are under attack by the LOCO CEOs.
Concentrate on the big picture now!!
Regards
Cpt B

I always wondered, why the pilot unions never ever seem to go to the root of the issue: ratings expire, ratings do cost a lot. Make a move to get this toward the employers (MANDATORY payment for the rating and all required courses by the employer, ratings should stay on the ticket and be renewed EASILY ) This would get the most pressure off crews to accept the pile of manure the companies want them to swallow.

Nil further

9th Jul 2018, 12:04

SMT

It is illegal to strike without a lengthy legal procedure in the UK ,Secondary strikes are also illegal .So the situation you allude to about UK pilots being sent to cover striking pilots in other jurisdictions is out-with the control of those on a UK contract .

Same rules apply in easyJet amongst other carriers .If you are rostered a flight and you don't turn up in sympathy for those on strike in that country then you are engaging in illegal industrial action and will in all likelihood be fired .

In some other UK countries it is illegal for the EMPLOYER to circumvent strikes in this way . UK law , years behind .

GrahamO

9th Jul 2018, 12:04

Or you could say that all parties couldn’t have ‘succeded’ without the other, and that everyone should benefit from that ‘success

They do from the perspective of risk/reward.

Pilots, and staff for that matter, do not risk their homes and livelihood when they take on a job. people who start companies take huge financial risks with their failies and home and should get the lions share of the reward as a result.

Anyone who doesn't like that is welcome to go and starts their own airline.

Its a curiously British trait of expecting all the rewards from starting a company. without the hassle of actually having to put your home on the line and live off reduced monies in the early days. That's why Silicon Valley could never happen in the UK - too many folks wanting a cut of someone elses company while asking others to take all the risk.

BluSdUp

9th Jul 2018, 12:05

Indeed
I have more licences and typeratings then strictly needed.
All payed by the Company I worked for at any given time!
I now regularly fly with 23 year old FOs with a direct investment of 150 000euros.
Last week I had one that started his type 2017 july and had final line check this June.
Except for ca 80 hrs line training pay at a low rate he lived for 11 MONTHS off the Bank.

Anyway
Details! Work in Progress!
Progress! And the BIG picture!!
The future is so bright, were is my Ray Bans?!!
Gone Flying
Regards
Cpt B

Journey Man

9th Jul 2018, 18:57

Heathrow Harry

10th Jul 2018, 06:42

You initial LOCO fellows allowed the likes of ROL and his ilk and their business model to rape and abuse our profession. He devided and ruled supremely by appealing to the greed and desperation of the low time pilots and offering different contracts. My current position 28 years into my carreer is under threat and I may have to move to another country thanks partly to LOCO carrier's..
Unite and fight your own battles as you should of many years ago. For once GROW A PAIR B

If you trawl PPrune you find dozens if not hundreds of posts from people desperate to become pilots and to move into airline jobs. I'm afraid they won't help preserve the status-quo never mind fight for better conditions if the alternative is reaching their goal.

TBH the airline business has changed so much over the last 30 years it is hardly recognisable outside of a few National Carriers. Every one can scream and rail about the results but I'm afraid that, like so many industries, the old ways have gone forever. This isn't really a choice between good & evil - it's the way of the world and I don't think it can be stopped

Gordomac

10th Jul 2018, 10:36

The heart of this is the entrepreneurial advocacy. They are the sole risk takers & even MOR will have held his breath in the early years. I do admire them as they directly resulted in my career opportunities & advancement. Of course, he has taken advantage of the trend in order to maximise profit, quickly. If sponsored cadet training was the only option, these high flying risk takers would have found ways to profit, even from that. Imagine, say, the Ryanair College of Air Training based at some glorious Irish airfield. All fees paid upfront to final line check. BUT, ....................then......................all fees returned to the company through reduced salary over ten years.(plus interest, of course). There. End of. College expands to take cadets sponsored (similar deal) by other airlines. Blimey, massive money maker, massive profits and applicants lining up from all over the place. Oh, and I should be Principal. Awaiting M's phone call.

MCDU2

10th Jul 2018, 11:54

They already did that. You don't really think CAE got the entire 30k for a 73 type rating down do you? Also all the intermediaries that take a slice of the action of the contractors payments. Hard to believe that FR don't benefit in some shape or form from Brookfield or suchlike. I can't imagine they just gave away that income stream for free to an agency wanting to employ pilots without a kick back.

GKOC41

11th Jul 2018, 15:35

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/ryanair-talks-unlikely-to-avert-strike-union-says-1.3561268

30 flights cancelled - with the way FR work their crews that's what 8 crews on strike........

Avenger

12th Jul 2018, 08:20

Both sides indicated a willingness at the talks to set up a working group to deal with the issues raised by pilots, which include base transfers, promotion, leave allocation and other areas covered by seniority.
However, Fórsa spokesman Bernard Harbor (https://www.irishtimes.com/topics/topics-7.1213540?article=true&tag_person=Bernard+Harbor) said afterwards that they failed to agree terms of reference for this group, as both sides came up with conflicting proposals.

"Terms of reference" in other words the Company wanted anyone who agrees with them on the group and the union wanted anyone who disagrees with the Company.. Probably the Company also wanted members to use AVAC days to attend meetings and buy their own water at the meeting!

beachbumflyer

13th Jul 2018, 08:43

Around 100 of the 350 Irish pilots went on strike yesterday. How come the other 250 pilots didn't go on strike?
This might just be the beginning.
Ryanair pilots, the time is now.

45989

13th Jul 2018, 09:46

Around 100 of the 350 Irish pilots went on strike yesterday. How come the other 250 pilots didn't go on strike?
This might just be the beginning.
Ryanair pilots, the time is now.
Can't help but admire your intentions, however ryr is populated by legions of those sort of people who would sell/kill their mother to get ahead.
O' Misery takes advantage of that. End of story

exploits that

beachbumflyer

13th Jul 2018, 13:41

Can't help but admire your intentions, however ryr is populated by legions of those sort of people who would sell/kill their mother to get ahead.
O' Misery takes advantage of that. End of story

exploits that
I know that, I've seen many of those, but you have to keep on trying, some day some of them will see it.

no slot

13th Jul 2018, 22:52

To the Ryanair pilots currently in dispute, I salute you, your actions defend both the weakest and the strongest in our profession. Thank you.

i hope this is a catalyst for further support.

For anybody on the fence, the time is now..... Unity cannot lose.

Stand up and be counted or bend over and be mounted.

wiggy

17th Jul 2018, 15:48

https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/images/mobile/misc/unknown.gif (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/member.php?u=477614)
YellowFever777 (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/member.php?u=477614) , 17th Jul 2018 09:47
Why the lack of coordination between the unions in different countries with these strikes?

Because in part (and has as has been pointed out by previous posters such as Nil further) the differing laws across Europe regarding Industrial Action probably can in some cases make cross border coordination difficult and possibly illegal

ROW_BOT

17th Jul 2018, 16:13

They do from the perspective of risk/reward.

Pilots, and staff for that matter, do not risk their homes and livelihood when they take on a job. people who start companies take huge financial risks with their failies and home and should get the lions share of the reward as a result.

Anyone who doesn't like that is welcome to go and starts their own airline.

Its a curiously British trait of expecting all the rewards from starting a company. without the hassle of actually having to put your home on the line and live off reduced monies in the early days. That's why Silicon Valley could never happen in the UK - too many folks wanting a cut of someone elses company while asking others to take all the risk.

Just to be clear - you do know it wasn’t MOL who set up RyanAir?
Sir Anthony Ryan did that. O’Leary was just a goffer who in fact tried to persuade him to shut it down.
He got a share in the company from Ryan if he’d agree to babysit it and to try out Herb Kelleher’s new business model. Which worked well for him. Thank you Herb!

I see MOL in a very Trumpian style. A bigmouth who inherited money and a good idea, and believes he’s a genius for making it work. His minions regularly outwitted him to make Ryanair a success. He took the credit afterward. So like The Donald. A great self promoter if nothing else.
Don’t be taken in by the bluster.

Ian W

17th Jul 2018, 17:20

RowBot
I see MOL in a very Trumpian style. A bigmouth who inherited money and a good idea, and believes he’s a genius for making it work. His minions regularly outwitted him to make Ryanair a success. He took the credit afterward. So like The Donald. A great self promoter if nothing else.
One of the main indicators of running a good business is to collect minions below you that out wit you, and fire those that cannot.

beachbumflyer

17th Jul 2018, 18:23

Just to be clear - you do know it wasn’t MOL who set up RyanAir?
Sir Anthony Ryan did that. O’Leary was just a goffer who in fact tried to persuade him to shut it down.
He got a share in the company from Ryan if he’d agree to babysit it and to try out Herb Kelleher’s new business model. Which worked well for him. Thank you Herb!

I see MOL in a very Trumpian style. A bigmouth who inherited money and a good idea, and believes he’s a genius for making it work. His minions regularly outwitted him to make Ryanair a success. He took the credit afterward. So like The Donald. A great self promoter if nothing else.
Don’t be taken in by the bluster.
Yeah, but he didn't copy the way Southwest treats its pilots and employees.

Right Hand Thread

17th Jul 2018, 19:13

SMT Member, Heathrow Harry and 45989 have it nailed. It's a bit rich for the LoCo crew to ask everyone to support them when they have spent the last two decades buying their jobs and stitching each other up.

There was a lad on here a few years ago seekig his first job. He wanted existing captains to strike until the airlines stopped charging for type ratings, wouldn't have it that those captains had worked their way up without paying for a TR or that the quickest way to stop the trade in buying a job was simply not to buy one.

Sorry but if you are seeking either sympathy or support both are in the dictionary somewhere between 'sh!t' and 'syphillis'.

JPJP

17th Jul 2018, 19:50

SMT Member, Heathrow Harry and 45989 have it nailed ......

Sorry but if you are seeking either sympathy or support both are in the dictionary somewhere between 'sh!t' and 'syphillis'.

Perhaps the word that you’re looking for in the dictionary is ‘Scab’ ? There’s certainly a vague odor of it, drifting through some of the posts on this thread.

JPJP

17th Jul 2018, 20:00

Just to be clear - you do know it wasn’t MOL who set up RyanAir?Sir Anthony Ryan did that. O’Leary was just a goffer who in fact tried to persuade him to shut it down.
He got a share in the company from Ryan if he’d agree to babysit it and to try out Herb Kelleher’s new business model. Which worked well for him. Thank you Herb!

I see MOL in a very Trumpian style. A bigmouth who inherited money and a good idea, and believes he’s a genius for making it work. His minions regularly outwitted him to make Ryanair a success. He took the credit afterward. So like The Donald. A great self promoter if nothing else.
Don’t be taken in by the bluster.

What an excellent quote. I wonder if Harry knew that ? Or shall we add it to the reams of other facts that he’s wrong about.

One of the main indicators of running a good business is to collect minions below you that out wit you, and fire those that cannot.

In the case of both MOL and the Orange One; finding minions to outwit them seems to be a rather simple task.

ShotOne

20th Jul 2018, 09:19

Well done RYR pilots for displaying some backbone. Pilots are conditioned to be "can-do" and get on with the job. Unfortunately this is often taken advantage of and works against us in negotiating terms. Time to learn to say "NO".

diple

20th Jul 2018, 14:33

This strike is not going well for the Pilots. They are barely making an impact. Occassional 10% cancelled flights with most passengers being accommodated is not enough to crush the will of the opponent.
The opponent is making it appear that they are the good guy who is prioritising families ahead of business travellers to the UK as a result of the pilot strike.
Pilots here might not see it like that but that is how it looks to the passengers.

ExDubai

20th Jul 2018, 18:27

diple

20th Jul 2018, 18:41

Not enough impact if the do this only in 1 country. Do it in 3-4 countries and you‘ll see much more cancellations. 600 flights cancelled because CC know how to do it.
That is over two days, not one so less effective and to be honest I think the problem for cabin crew is easier solved through contracted staff who are not in short supply compared to pilots.
I do think Ryanair paid less respect to Cabin Crew's ability to organise than Pilots or maybe Ryanair are just so cheap that they wouldn't invest in avoiding cabin crew strikes until the strikes actually hit.

Trav a la

20th Jul 2018, 23:09

Ryanair seem to be heading for a showdown with the CAA due to a clash over compensation payments caused by the strikes.

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/travel/2018/07/ryanair-clashes-with-two-regulators-over-strike-compensation?_ga=2.115962244.361950118.1532122055-501765868.1520447614

ShotOne

21st Jul 2018, 04:54

“UK law far behind...”. Definitely! Proved by the outrageous decision to allow British Airways to use Qatar Airways (whose crews would have faced deportation or imprisonment if they’d refused!) to break their cabin crew strike. Even that didn’t work. Full credit to B A cabin crew who stuck it out!

Trossie

21st Jul 2018, 06:12

Would I be a bit of a cynic if I see these strikes as 'useful' for saving up pilots' flying hours to avoid the problems of last September? In other words, a few bits of disjointed disruption now is better than that big disruption in September.

SMT Member

22nd Jul 2018, 09:48

A bit of disjointed disruption at the busiest time of year? Doesn't really sound plausible.

What I suggest is happening, is Ryanair having failed to grasp the seriousness of the situation, and the resolve of their cabin- and cockpit crews. They've publicly said they'll acknowledge unions, but not any union. Particularly, Ryanair doesn't seem to recognise any existing unions. Since then all they've done is give staff a song and a dance, trying to stall for as long as possible hoping it'll all go away.

Rated De

22nd Jul 2018, 10:37

diple

22nd Jul 2018, 11:17

Mr O'Leary like all bullies will extend and pretend.

They will turn themselves inside out doing everything, then finally having exhausted all other options, do the right thing...
The right thing from an industrial relations perspective appears to be to continue hiring contractors who don't strike even when law permits them to do so.
If Ryanair Management sees forward bookings begin to struggle then they might change strategy but that hasn't happened so far.
I'm not seeing the motivator in either financial or legal terms which compels Ryanair Management to genuinely embrace the Unions if at all.

OutsideCAS

23rd Jul 2018, 11:16

I'm not seeing the motivator in either financial or legal terms which compels Ryanair Management to genuinely embrace the Unions if at all.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-ryanair-results/weak-summer-fares-strikes-clip-ryanairs-wings-idUKKBN1KD0FE

There’s one.....

as for......... Chief Executive Michael O’Leary said he expected more strikes during the summer “as we are not prepared to concede to unreasonable demands that will compromise either our low fares or our highly efficient model.

He also warned staff of possible job losses if strikes went on.

That would be sensible. Sacking staff when you don’t have enough as it is?. Model is not broken perhaps but it’s definitely needing some adhesive to stop the wheels falling off. And they are falling off if the reports are accurate.

golfyankeesierra

24th Jul 2018, 16:35

Ryanair warns Dutch passengers to claim compensation directl (https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2018/07/ryanair-warns-dutch-passengers-to-claim-compensation-directly/)
Ryanair is now threatening a claim-buro in the Netherlands with legal action.
It will ‘take all necessary measures’ to protect the contractual relationship with its passengers.

tipp55

24th Jul 2018, 21:53

Ryanair is now threatening a claim-buro in the Netherlands with legal action.
It will ‘take all necessary measures’ to protect the contractual relationship with its passengers.

It will ‘take all necessary measures’ to protect the contractual relationship with its passengers shareholders.

waffler

25th Jul 2018, 09:34

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2018/0725/980917-ryanair-dublin-cuts/

O Leary and his bullyboys showing their true colours.
It would be great if the Board decided that the Job cuts began at the very top.
Time for all Ryanair staff to stand up to these bully’s .

Diesel_10

25th Jul 2018, 09:34

Sky Reporting the following:
Ryanair has taken the unusual step of publishing staff pay and benefit details online as workers for the airline stage strikes.
The budget airline hit back at Irish pilots staging a third 24-hour strike over working conditions.
Ryanair posted details on its website of pilots' monthly and annual salaries, which included captains from Ireland, the UK, Belgium, Germany and Portugal.
The airline claimed the pilots earned between €190,000 and €220,000 (£169,000 and £195,000) year.

Not about money then I'd guess?;)

OutsideCAS

25th Jul 2018, 10:00

Given Ryanair have posted the wage slips details of the earnings that various captains earn at various different bases in different countries, would it not also be a good idea to reveal (other than the Basic) the Social and PAYE headings also, just to clarify?. I am interested to know what the other (second) largest amount is on each payslip. If you look purely at the Basic salary, then it's less than other operator's Command salaries for equivalent fleet position and size in the main. The bulk of salary is made up of something else (pre-tax?), and also - what position in Ryanair do these individuals hold? Base Captains? Directors of some sort? or just ordinary line pilots?.

BluSdUp

25th Jul 2018, 10:07

Good Morning
And the plot thickens!
According newspaper Rte.ie Ryanair has told them that this winter it reduces the Dublin based aircraft from 30 to 25.
100 pilots and 200 cabin crew has been given notice of temporary redundancy and an offer to transfer to Poland this winter.
Union busting on a high level!
Not sure the timing is right.
Correction , : I am sure the timing is NOT right.
Time to dust off that old CV, me thinks.
Regards
Cpt B

infrequentflyer789

25th Jul 2018, 10:17

That would be sensible. Sacking staff when you don’t have enough as it is?. Model is not broken perhaps but it’s definitely needing some adhesive to stop the wheels falling off. And they are falling off if the reports are accurate.

On the other hand if bookings fall off a cliff then you won't need so many staff, like say 20% fewer... https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ryanair-unions/strike-hit-ryanair-warns-of-job-losses-as-cuts-dublin-based-fleet-idUSKBN1KF0X5

Low-cost end of the market in any industry is notoriously sensitive, pax don't fly ryanair because they like them, they put up with ryanair because it does the job at a low price, the minute it stops doing the job or having lowest price, the pax will be gone. Ryanair doesn't do frequent-flyer-miles or airport-lounges, if you have a bad flight there isn't anywhere to upgrade you to on the next one, and MOL will happily leave pax stranded without assistance or EU261 compensation. Every time that happens it's at least one pax lost, for a long time.

MOL doesn't care of course, plenty of work for his planes elsewhere in the EU, apparently, and the crew of course provided they want to transfer to another EU country with the same standards of EU law and judicial independence (*cough*)...

bnt

25th Jul 2018, 11:14

The Irish Independent has more details of Ryanair's latest moves, here (https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/ryanair-warns-of-potential-job-cuts-for-up-to-300-dublinbased-employees-37152670.html):
Ryanair (https://www.independent.ie/news-topics/ryanair/) has today written to over 300 employees warning them that their services may not be required from October 28.

The protective notice to staff has been issued after the board took the decision to cut its Dublin-based fleet by 20pc for the winter.

Over 100 pilots and 200 cabin crew employees will be affected by Ryanair’s decision to cut its Dublin fleet to 24 from 30 for the winter period.

The low-fares airline said that the decision had been driven by the rapid growth of its Polish charter airline, allied to a down turn in forward bookings and airfares in Ireland, which it said was "partly as a result of recent rolling strikes by Irish pilots."

The airline said that the strikes had resulted in consumer confidence in the reliability of its Irish flight schedules being disturbed.

Avenger

25th Jul 2018, 11:51

"Temporary redundancy" in other words unpaid leave over the winter reserving the right to call you back when we need you --on our terms. They know winter is the soft season for recruitment and most guys would need 3 months to get a job and would probably choose to stay but loose the pay.. Let me guess.. if you've been on strike you run the risk of being a target! Perhaps the crews can shaft them by offering a "job share" spread the pain amongst the brethren and avoid the need for "reductions"

Mr Angry from Purley

25th Jul 2018, 16:23

Are the 100 Pilots the one's on strike or....Union needs to stand firm

SliabhLuachra

25th Jul 2018, 17:06

Oh my Lord. Staff will be transferred ''based on performance and attendance''. No safety issues there! Move along now! Nothing to be seen here

sTeamTraen

25th Jul 2018, 17:57

I haven't seen this elsewhere: Ryanair cabin crew on strike (https://elpais.com/elpais/2018/07/25/inenglish/1532504244_915251.html) today and tomorrow in Spain, Portugal, Italy, and Belgium.

JPJP

25th Jul 2018, 18:45

Oh my Lord. Staff will be transferred ''based on performance and attendance''. No safety issues there! Move along now! Nothing to be seen here

One wonders how bright LIG (Lorenzo In Green) really is ? He just waived a giant flag over his head; advertising how important Union protection and a Collective Bargaining Agreement really are for the pilots and cabin crew.

Ryanair strike has been all over the media in the U.S. -

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/todayinthesky/2018/07/25/ryanair-strike-600-flight-cancellations-disrupt-50-000-fliers/832069002/

172_driver

25th Jul 2018, 20:24

sTeamTraen

25th Jul 2018, 21:54

I think the list of 13 bullet points in the El Pais article above sums it up. No social insurance,no company sick pay, not able to get mortgage. This is monumental and I am hoping there's a lot of head baging in Swords right now.
Without wishing to defend RYR, the general issue that you can be employed in one country and as a result can't get a mortgage in another is something the EU probably ought to have a look at.

172_driver

25th Jul 2018, 22:32

Without wishing to defend RYR, the general issue that you can be employed in one country and as a result can't get a mortgage in another is something the EU probably ought to have a look at

I agree with that and I've had that conversation with my bank woman. I swiftly realized that was a sturdy piece of rock I wouldn't move myself.

Negan, when the Ryanair delegation make a 180 in the doorway and leave as they don't approve of the Union selected negotiators we're pretty far off negotiating "in good faith".

SMT Member

26th Jul 2018, 12:27

The pilots should call an end to the strikes and Ryanair should offer to negotiate in good faith over the coming months to seek a solution as I don't think anyone wins with the current strike situation

Hi management dude. First of all, that's what Ryanair's been claiming to do for, well, months as it is. I'd suspect it would take a month or three to sort all the legalities out for contracts to be made locally, depending on where you were based. That time has long passed, and is clear testimony to the fact Ryanair's self-proclaimed acceptance of negotiating with unions were barefaced lies. They've been stalling for time, hoping for the winter season to cover the staff reductions. Short sighted as usual, but a move such as the one in Dublin does send a clear message and put the employees in conflict bases under a lot of pressure. He's testing their resolve or, in other words, it's all part of the great pissing contest.

vipatr

26th Jul 2018, 13:10

The pilots should call an end to the strikes and Ryanair should offer to negotiate in good faith over the coming months to seek a solution as I don't think anyone wins with the current strike situation

You know very very well that Ryanair never acts in good faith... Thankgod the rest of Europe is finally realising it to.

Customers and crew all stand behind this strike Ryanair!

flybug

26th Jul 2018, 15:19

Guys,
Just one question; why do pilots offer themselves to be trainers when they are getting slapped in the face by management?!!??
Is it not time to give up training and let them deal with it?

ayroplain

26th Jul 2018, 15:22

Negan, when the Ryanair delegation make a 180 in the doorway and leave as they don't approve of the Union selected negotiators we're pretty far off negotiating "in good faith".

Hi 172_driver. As you appear to have information that the rest of us do not have could you answer the following questions please:

1. Was the current IALPA President Mr. Cullen of Aer Lingus one of the negotiators selected by the union?
2. Were any other Aer Lingus people included among the negotiators selected by the union?
3. If not, what other airlines had negotiators selected by the union?
4. What reason did Ryanair give for doing a 180. Who (no names) did they object to?

If you are unwilling to provide answers to these questions then your statement quoted above remains unsubstantiated and mere hearsay.

Alsacienne

26th Jul 2018, 15:42

Ryanair should offer to negotiate in good faith

Not quite sure you can legitimately apply the predicate to the subject of this sentence .... but maybe that's the English grammar classes of my youth finally finding a purpose.

BluSdUp

26th Jul 2018, 15:43

There is a few words for people like You!
All of them will get this post deleted.

So lets just say You are WRONG !

172_driver

26th Jul 2018, 18:43

Hi ayroplain,

I am not talking about Dublin but another country where the union is seeking collective bargaining agreement with Ryanair. They objected to the chairman of the union being present as he was not employed by Ryanair.

JPJP

26th Jul 2018, 18:56

Hi 172_driver. As you appear to have information that the rest of us do not have could you answer the following questions please:

1. Was the current IALPA President Mr. Cullen of Aer Lingus one of the negotiators selected by the union?
2. Were any other Aer Lingus people included among the negotiators selected by the union?
3. If not, what other airlines had negotiators selected by the union?
4. What reason did Ryanair give for doing a 180. Who (no names) did they object to?

If you are unwilling to provide answers to these questions then your statement quoted above remains unsubstantiated and mere hearsay.

Answers to your questions below;

1. None of Ryanairs business,
2. Irrelevant,
3. Who they choose to negotiate is up to them, and
4. All of the above

Ryanair doesn’t get a say in who they negotiate with. If Ryanair pilots showed up with the tooth fairy, and the SWAPA negotiating committee, it’s still none of their business. Your list of questions, is really a list of excuses and fears. Niether of which bode well for the Ryanair ‘negotiators’.

ayroplain

26th Jul 2018, 19:49

Ryanair doesn’t get a say in who they negotiate with.

Thanks for your input JPJP but no need to get all excited and upset. Let me explain.

In the light of the claim that Ryanair didn't act "in good faith" by walking out of an intended meeting with the union I thought it was important to find out if they actually DID walk out and why before trying to reach any conclusions.

Let us assume for the moment that they did do a 180.
If, and I say IF they saw any Aer Lingus reps on the union's team when they arrived they would have every right to walk away given the long history between the two airlines and, in particular, with the IALPA President. It doesn't matter which side of the discussion you are on, it happened. If you don't know what that history is then you need to look it up. In this (Dublin) dispute it is a very relevant factor whether you agree or not.

Any Aer Lingus presence on the team would have to be considered a provocative (bad faith) move by the union.

On the other hand, if there was nobody on the team from Aer Lingus then that's a different ballgame altogether.

However, following 172_driver's reply it is now clear that the 180 he referred to didn't happen at Dublin.

172_driver, thanks for your reply. Apologies, I thought you were referring to the high profile dispute with pilots at the Dublin base.

JPJP

26th Jul 2018, 20:55

Let us assume for the moment that they did do a 180.
If, and I say IF they saw any Aer Lingus reps on the union's team when they arrived they would have every right to walk away given the long history between the two airlines and, in particular, with the IALPA President. It doesn't matter which side of the discussion you are on, it happened. If you don't know what that history is then you need to look it up. In this (Dublin) dispute it is a very relevant factor whether you agree or not.

Any Aer Lingus presence on the team would have to be considered a provocative (bad faith) move by the union.

On the other hand, if there was nobody on the team from Aer Lingus then that's a different ballgame altogether.
.

No.

You don’t seem to have any grasp of how negotiations for a EBA/CBA are carried out. There are established guidelines that define “bad faith”. Whom one chooses to negotiate, isn’t one of them. Your points above are irrelevant. They’re a transparent attempt to muddy the waters, delay, distract and reframe the discussion. Ryanair have no ability to dictate who the pilots choose as negotiators.

Are you implying that the Ryanair team would be so upset by the choice of negotiators that they would be unable to continue ? Overwhelmed and distracted, angered and unable to concentrate ? Spluttering spittle over their tight polyester and spandex suits, at the hint of facing a negotiating team that doesn’t please them. Interesting.

ayroplain

26th Jul 2018, 21:21

Your points above are irrelevant.
It is perfectly obvious that you have no clear understanding of the difficulties that beset this particular (Dublin) dispute, are incapable of carrying on a reasoned discussion and are just intent on ranting on with your obvious hatred of the airline blinding your mind. It's there for all to see.

Oriana

27th Jul 2018, 01:42

Firing 200 pilots as cabin crew an advantage to their competitors.

Ryanair's Rivals Want to Hire Its Disgruntled Pilots | Fortune (http://fortune.com/2018/07/26/ryanair-pilots-cabin-crew/)

JPJP

27th Jul 2018, 03:31

It is perfectly obvious that you have no clear understanding of the difficulties that beset this particular (Dublin) dispute, are incapable of carrying on a reasoned discussion and are just intent on ranting on with your obvious hatred of the airline blinding your mind. It's there for all to see.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/556x238/61280bdd_73d4_40f9_9a7a_68dc8535edf3_907a5cde4dfa86b5d0271a6 3908b791345fd3942.gif

Fail. Again.

There’s an old aviation adage - Airlines get the Union that they deserve.

Good luck.

Jwscud

27th Jul 2018, 09:15

Talking of “obvious hatred” the Ryanair management have an entirely irrational hatred of Aer Lingus. I recall a winter storm a few years back where the weather around the British Isles was appalling, and the Chief pilot issued an internal memo congratulating pilots for managing to get in and out of Dublin safely and noting “a small Dublin based Airbus operator” were unable to do likewise.

Given the only audience for communications like that was Ryanair pilots, most of whom don’t give a monkeys about some golf club pissing contest, it displays the madness that comes over FR management whenever EI are involved.

Anyone who has followed the history of Ryanair management over the years will be unsurprised by their efforts to prevent any kind of meaningful negotiations with the unions. If you have had any personal interactions with Eddie Wilson (the man who flew all the way to Copenhagen solely to tell the Danish Unions to **** off then fly home) will know that Ryanair have no intention of building any form of honest relationship with their employees.

bringbackthe80s

27th Jul 2018, 14:52

The real question is why ANYONE with a bit of experience stays. Given the market at the moment It’s really a big mistery to me

adolf hucker

27th Jul 2018, 15:40

The real question is why ANYONE with a bit of experience stays. Given the market at the moment It’s really a big mistery to me

Inertia, fear of change, lack of self-respect - take your pick.

adolf hucker

27th Jul 2018, 22:11

Really? You think pilots tolerating being treated as lackeys and publicly berated by their CEO demonstrates a high level of self-respect? And those hanging on hoping for better times is precisely why Ryanair is able to continue. It’s the pilots who have the gumption to move on who created the cancellations last year which has allowed unionisation to get a toe hold.

I hope things do get better for those remaining in Ryanair but there wouldn’t have been a hope without the more ambitious ones leaving. I spent every day in Ryanair making myself more employable so that I could get away from such a toxic, soul-destroying and generally joyless organisation.

bringbackthe80s

28th Jul 2018, 09:40

I don't agree. There is a time when enough is enough and an experiencd professional should not accept certain things. And frankly what surprises me is people are still hoping for a change. Incredible

silverstrata

29th Jul 2018, 18:28

The real question is why ANYONE with a bit of experience stays. Given the market at the moment It’s really a big mistery to me

You've got to know when to hold 'em
Know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away
And know when to run
You never count your money
When you're sittin' at the table
There'll be time enough for countin'
When the dealin's done....

(Because working for Ryan is a real gamble.......)

ST

gearlever

30th Jul 2018, 10:23

100 pilot jobs in Dublin threatened (http://eurocockpit.be/news/100-ryanair-pilots-strike-dublin-100-pilot-jobs-dublin-threatened-striking-coincidence)

gearlever

30th Jul 2018, 13:50

Ryanair Ballot completed – Pilots in favor for industrial action (https://www.vcockpit.de/en/press/pressemitteilungen/details/news/urabstimmung-bei-ryanair-beendet-piloten-stimmen-fuer-streik.html)

JPJP

31st Jul 2018, 19:09

A great quote from the Eurocockpit article regarding Ryanair -

“This decision risks entering aviation history as a sad episode of human resources hara-kiri.”

Sonikt

31st Jul 2018, 19:57

A great quote from the Eurocockpit article regarding Ryanair -

“This decision risks entering aviation history as a sad episode of human resources hara-kiri.”

It's not at all surprising to see Ryanair management lashing out with threats of redundancies etc. in fact such obvious bluster is a clear sign of desperation.

MOL and his minions have spent many, many years constantly getting their own way, total domination through a merry game of divide and rule. Consequently they have no clue whatsoever how to negotiate from the position of weakness they now find themselves in.

Personally I think this dispute has already reached a critical mass - the workforce are clearly no longer afraid and further attempts to intimidate will simply strengthen resolve and unity

bigdaviet

1st Aug 2018, 08:40

172_driver

1st Aug 2018, 09:31

Hot off the press;

Ryanair pilots based in Sweden have announced strike action on the 10th of August.
Not in the news stream yet, announced by the union.

waffler

1st Aug 2018, 11:49

Belgian Ryanair pilots also going on strike.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0801/982379-ryanair/

Finn47

1st Aug 2018, 13:33

Hot off the press;

Ryanair pilots based in Sweden have announced strike action on the 10th of August.
Not in the news stream yet, announced by the union.

Reuters has an article out on it: https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-ryanair-unions-sweden/ryanair-pilots-in-sweden-to-strike-belgians-may-join-idUKKBN1KM4A1

Sonikt

1st Aug 2018, 19:33

I presume the “20% cuts” are just bluster and in fact are the normal cuts you would expect in winter. But if they really do scale back significantly due to strike action it just paved the wAy for the “rivals circling” to poach more FR pilots and expand their own operations.

Exactly

Let's also not forget that a very fundamental aspect of the Lo-Co model is maximizing utilization of capital assets i.e. keeping planes in the air as much as possible.

A plane sat on the ground earns nothing in fares and ancillary revenue (in flight sales) but still has depreciation/finance costs, plus storage and scheduled maintenance costs. Grounding planes in winter can make financial sense, but only if the same assets are fully utilized during the busier summer months.

So it doesn't matter if FR decide to relocate planes to Timbuktu - if they don't have enough crews to keep them in the air at the same or better level of utilization this will not only diminish revenues, but also increase the cost base relative to the remaining revenue. Ryanair's profitability is fragile, precisely because it is built on maximised efficiency; any loss of efficiency has a bigger impact compared to other airlines.

New bases and routes take some time to build traffic and load factor etc (this by FR own admission) so there can be no business sense at all in relocating assets from a mature market with close to maximum utilization (Ireland) into the unknown (Poland). It can therefore only be seen as bluster or an act of desperation.

BluSdUp

2nd Aug 2018, 10:45

Or a Mood-report, could not find a good English word!
YpppeeeeeKaaYehhh Mother ,,,,,,,,er! Bruse Willis.

Or maybe :
" You fell lucky , Punk"

RYR has made it to the Big League.
They can not use the Court system as a threat any more. THEY actually have to behave according to old strict rules for Industrial Action.
It looks like they need to google that concept.
When at it , they could also google : supply and demand!

Battle of Britain also comes to mind:
Churchill:
" This is not the end, it is not even the beginning of the end.
But it is the end of the beginning"

History is being made Girls and Boys.
What are YOU going to tell you grand children!?

Point of no return is WAY past!

Rant over.
Were did that Zigar go,,,,??

Regards
Cpt B

wiggy

2nd Aug 2018, 12:22

Battle of Britain also comes to mind:
Churchill:
" This is not the end, it is not even the beginning of the end.
But it is the end of the beginning"

Thread drift/point of order: wrong battle...
Now back to the thread

Sonikt

3rd Aug 2018, 13:14

ryanairs uk pilots said to make move toward possible strike (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-08-01/ryanair-s-u-k-pilots-said-to-make-move-toward-possible-strike)

The supreme irony today, is that Ryanair management seem to have maneuvered themselves into the worst possible negotiating position, purely through their own arrogance

They were offered a company wide, single in house committee to negotiate with - the EERC - but they refused preferring to continue with their divide and rule

So now they are forced to negotiate individualy with multiple unions across the various countries, while staff from various countries are quite obviously now working together, completely outside the control or visibility of Ryanair

I guess they can always fall back on blaming Air Lingus :rolleyes:

Dan Winterland

4th Aug 2018, 03:51

BluSdUp

4th Aug 2018, 08:54

Dan
I am wondering about that one!
I recon the latest deft moves by Dublin has lost them some 10 to 15% of the present staff if not more by next spring.
On top of the ones that was on the way out anyway.
There is a limit to folks loyalty or stupidity as some like to call it here.
The frustration on line is now at a level that are approaching critical proportions.

So what is the Boss up to?
The behavior is irrational at best and possible destructive with regards to summer 2019 staffing.
UNLESS he intends to pull a big stunt around Brexit and crush the Union and ground a heap of aircraft in the process!
I do not know, but if he plans to have all 500 aircraft flying next April he needs to change his ways.
Regards
Cpt B

PilotRoger

7th Aug 2018, 12:02

One more strike:
VC erhöht den Druck auf Ryanair - Austrian Aviation Net (http://www.austrianaviation.net/detail/vc-erhoeht-den-druck-auf-ryanair/)

ExDubai

8th Aug 2018, 09:34

Just over the news: VC announced that they will join the strike on Friday in Germany

the_stranger

8th Aug 2018, 20:50

Ryanair tries to prevent a strike in the Netherlands by going to court, while the Dutch pilots still hadn't decide to strike or not.

Their answer, strike on friday...

https://www.vnv.nl/news/vrijdag-10-augustus-24-uurs-staking-bij-ryanair-in-nederland

SMT Member

9th Aug 2018, 14:39

Well done the Dutch; bullying is best answered with a superior show of strength and unity.

Dan_Brown

9th Aug 2018, 14:54

Like a lot of employers these days, MOL is learning,albeit slowly, these facts.

= Treat your employees like sh*t, they will turn on you.

= The employees are a companys greatest asset.

Pilots aren't known to stick together, however at the moment there must be huge dissatisfaction within the ranks to get this type of collective response. He didn't take his chances to negotiate earlier on, now he is going to pay.. Serves him right.

SanHor

9th Aug 2018, 17:45

Strike approved by the judge in the Netherlands.

see attached link (Dutch only)

https://www.nu.nl/economie/5405948/rechter-geeft-nederlandse-ryanair-piloten-gelijk-staking-gaat-vrijdag.html

In short strike approved, next time the Dutch union needs to announce the strike 72 hours in advance.

Sonikt

9th Aug 2018, 17:57

Pilots aren't known to stick together, however at the moment there must be huge dissatisfaction within the ranks to get this type of collective response. He didn't take his chances to negotiate earlier on, now he is going to pay.. Serves him right.

I see some observers in the press and financial markets still feel that MOL will somehow regain the initiative, at which point he will hit back hard

This is total BS

There is a global structural shortage of aircrew, which will only continue to get worse as older pilots retire, and other opportunities for the rest continue to grow.

Boeing have predicted this situation for well over 10 years and there have already been failures of regional airlines in the USA due to shortage of crew. In this case ultimately crew are fine because new jobs are created as competitors move in to fill the void - just look what happened at MON and AB

The simple choice for Ryanair is to either addapt to the changing labor situation, or otherwise find out the hard way that the previous business model is no longer sustainable in the current market.

Rated De

9th Aug 2018, 20:15

The simple choice for Ryanair is to either addapt to the changing labor situation, or otherwise find out the hard way that the previous business model is no longer sustainable in the current market.

The entire sinew of Ryanair is predicated on unlimited supply of labour. The process or recruitment, management and disposal of staff, has at its genesis an 'assumption' that what leaves is simply replaced. (and cheaply) With minimal sunk costs in the labour unit itself (think pilot training, pensions and even uniforms) the loss for the company was minimised. If one considers the EU itself, there are nations here where the demographics helped them sustain this practice.

The fundamental flaw in Ryanair's thinking is that:

Pilots own their log book hours
Pilots own their endorsements
Aviation is globalised.

Given that Operating Revenue is a result of operation, pilots or rather lack of it impact the business. Thugs like O'Leary are being progressively dragged kicking and screaming to the new paradigm: Pilots are essential.

Over in the USA is a highly unionised, well paid airline, who also operates in the Low Fare sector. Their CEO and company sinew is different.
"A company is stronger if bounded by love than fear-Herb Kelleher"

Ryan air will need to change to meet the new paradigm. If they don't they will realise the truism that it is hard to operate an airline without operating revenue.

Little Napoloen (Alan Joyce) in the antipodes, famously remarked cicra 2004 at a Sydney hotel press conference speaking of the Jetstar pilot model: "We will work them hard for 5 to 7 years and then replace them"

Many airlines have tried to replicate the Southwest structure, however cherry picking bits of it, whilst maintaining the adversarial model has yielded very little.
You cannot fake sincerity, but the worse it gets for industrial bullies like Mr O'Leary and eventually 'downunder' too (Alan Joyce) they will try!

BluSdUp

9th Aug 2018, 20:48

412 flights cancelled tomorrow!

Rated De

9th Aug 2018, 21:04

412 flights cancelled tomorrow!

412 times zero= zero.

Wonder how long it takes to permeate to the board?

Does the IAA require RPT schedules to be maintained as per AOC requirements? Below what threshold are RYR required to explain?
Do airport operators have a contractual remedy for their loss of revenue? That is if airlines don't use the gate, pay landing fees etc the 'business model' of airports will implode..funny that.

Pass the popcorn, the industry needs a purge like this!

Sonikt

9th Aug 2018, 23:26

412 times zero= zero

EU 261 compensation = 250 EUR per passenger!

Given about 75k passengers impacted I make that just shy of 19m EUR potential exposure, just for tomorrows strikes. That's a dead loss, in addition to costs of refunds or rebooking.

Of course FR are trying to weasel out of it, but the media (https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/money/2018/aug/04/compensation-dont-let-ryanair-fob-you-off) and various regulators are already on to it and are vigerously encouraging people to claim. I believe the Spanish regulator even had people handing out claim forms at the airport.

The longer this dispute goes on, the more publicity EU261 will recieve, so awareness will spread of the right to claim, and how to do this sucsefully. Once this cat is out the bag its not going back, having a permanent ongoing impact on FR costs and losses, due to increased levels of claims for regular delays and cancellations besides strikes.

So the idea that FR can 'ride out' prolonged mass strikes is preposterous.

Avoiding EU 261 requires 2 weeks notice of cancellation and most EU countries only require a few days notice or less for strikes. Think about that.

BurDubaiBob

10th Aug 2018, 04:54

BBC News: Ryanair strike: One in six flights cancelled in pilot walkout (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45139077)

JPJP

10th Aug 2018, 04:55

‘And the Beat Goes On’

From The Irish Times -

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/work/strikes-a-natural-consequence-of-workers-operating-in-a-market-environment-1.3590930

Well Used

10th Aug 2018, 05:37

Good luck and well done to those making a stand, personally I think other airlines are in similar situations with overall staffing issues. Where I currently operate the training staff have been getting it hard for years and there are strengthening undertones in those ranks that are now migrating outwards to line crews and management.

Why? It’s the same as Ryanair, incredibly poor middle management unable to voice concerns to high profile directors who are interested in nothing more than headline profits. Pair this with inept crewing practices, poor rostering and the perfect storm brews.

Well done the boys and girls of Ryanair, you are the first but not the last.

Boeing 7E7

10th Aug 2018, 08:45

Again, I add my support to the pilots in Ryanair that are finally doing some to stop the rapacious tactics Ryanair has used for so long. How noticeable it is too that UK pilots are not part of this strike. It says nothing about the depth of feeling and commitment to change by the pilots and everything about the law in the UK that makes strike action by employees so difficult, thanks to changes made in 1980s by the government of the time. I hope that BALPA and UK pilots can work through the legal mine field and strike too, to change things for the better.

Timmy Tomkins

10th Aug 2018, 09:20

The entire sinew of Ryanair is predicated on unlimited supply of labour. The process or recruitment, management and disposal of staff, has at its genesis an 'assumption' that what leaves is simply replaced. (and cheaply) With minimal sunk costs in the labour unit itself (think pilot training, pensions and even uniforms) the loss for the company was minimised. If one considers the EU itself, there are nations here where the demographics helped them sustain this practice.

The fundamental flaw in Ryanair's thinking is that:

Pilots own their log book hours
Pilots own their endorsements
Aviation is globalised.

Given that Operating Revenue is a result of operation, pilots or rather lack of it impact the business. Thugs like O'Leary are being progressively dragged kicking and screaming to the new paradigm: Pilots are essential.

Over in the USA is a highly unionised, well paid airline, who also operates in the Low Fare sector. Their CEO and company sinew is different.
"A company is stronger if bounded by love than fear-Herb Kelleher"

Ryan air will need to change to meet the new paradigm. If they don't they will realise the truism that it is hard to operate an airline without operating revenue.

Little Napoloen (Alan Joyce) in the antipodes, famously remarked cicra 2004 at a Sydney hotel press conference speaking of the Jetstar pilot model: "We will work them hard for 5 to 7 years and then replace them"

Many airlines have tried to replicate the Southwest structure, however cherry picking bits of it, whilst maintaining the adversarial model has yielded very little.
You cannot fake sincerity, but the worse it gets for industrial bullies like Mr O'Leary and eventually 'downunder' too (Alan Joyce) they will try!

Many years ago I was fortunate enough to be at a presentation by the Southwest pilot's union and tried hard to get some of the practices that were normal in that company introduced into my UK airline; unsurprisingly without success. Herb Kelleher is/was a leader and that is the difference. O'Leary and others visited SW, plundered the low cost model but left out all the good ideas that made the company special and good to work for. At that time, SW had the lowest fares and highest pay in the US and with enviable work and roster practices. Kelleher's apparent generosity was based on the simple principle that the number 1 priority was to maintain the schedule, no matter if it cost more to do that.
I still remember the look of fear in the manager's eyes when we proposed some of these measures. It was too difficult, too difficult to justify to those above them and they ran for the hills, with all the problems still intact. O'Leary's is no different.

4runner

10th Aug 2018, 10:14

italian stallion

10th Aug 2018, 10:25

Oh I love it... just my personal vendetta against RYR...what goes around comes around ��

JW411

10th Aug 2018, 10:37

The difficulty is that whatever happens, MOL is going to walk away with more money than you or I could ever imagine.

Alpine Flyer

10th Aug 2018, 12:18

Hey Guys/Girls. As an aviator and someone with global flying and work experience, perhaps I can make a presumptuous suggestion or propose an idea. Why doesn’t a US pilot union get involved in European labor issues? I’ve worked overseas without a union, in the US without a union and in the US with ALPA and Teamsters. I can say, with very few exceptions and through experience that having a union to back you up and represent our interests is many legs up on being caught “high and dry”. Has anyone proposed even speaking to a pilots union that could Represent European pilots as a WHOLE, instead of being divided, conquered and screwed by management? As long as no one from Thpain is involved...
There's a regular sharing of knowledge across the Atlantic (and across the rest of the globe) regarding industrial issues and industrial action via IFALPA, where ALPA Intl. and the European Pilot Associations - joined themselves within ECA meet regularly. The current developments at Ryanair AFAIK are based on a multinational multi-union working group where pilot unions of countries with Ryanair bases join forces and act in a synchronized way. (Which replaced previous attempts to form a single association within Ryanair.)

As noted above it is indeed interesting that MOL rejected a single negotiating committee and now has to deal with 10 variations of something he doesn't seem to understand. Good luck and stamina to all pilots involved (and to cabin crews as well!). We should all petition our pilot reps to put enough resources in this fight (even if the share of Ryanair pilot members is still small) as a change in work practices at Ryanair will undoubtedly benefit all European pilots.

Sonikt

10th Aug 2018, 13:36

As noted above it is indeed interesting that MOL rejected a single negotiating committee and now has to deal with 10 variations of something he doesn't seem to understand

I predict that Ryanair will now attempt to negotiate preferential terms with the unions of the countries that have the most clout (i.e. Germany) in order to eliminate them from any future action.

Ironically no doubt this will harden union positions on the very central issue of base transfers; because there is no gain in negotiating decent terms in one area, if these rights can effectively be stripped simply by transferring staff to another country, where perhaps the local labor laws are weaker

172_driver

10th Aug 2018, 14:53

The difficulty is that whatever happens, MOL is going to walk away with more money than you or I could ever imagine.

But without the pleasure of getting what he wants this time :ok:

Flying.Coyote

11th Aug 2018, 09:21

Ryanair pilots on strike : you have my full support. What you are doing is for the sake of the all pilot community (current and futur).
:ok:

SMT Member

11th Aug 2018, 12:14

The difficulty is that whatever happens, MOL is going to walk away with more money than you or I could ever imagine.

Personally I couldn't care less if he leaves with an envelope or wheelbarrow full; the only item of interest to me, is seeing the end of the horrendous labour practices employed by Ryanair.

Yaw String

11th Aug 2018, 15:56

To quote Well Used!
"incredibly poor middle management unable to voice concerns to high profile directors who are interested in nothing more than headline profits. Pair this with inept crewing practices, poor rostering and the perfect storm brews."
Indeed it is so,and getting worse by the day!
Many companies are becoming "Swiss cheese" factories!...with us pilots spending more and more time preventing the holes lining up!
Its a credit to individuals that safety is still paramount,even when not one management character ever seems to attend the average CRM course!
How about someone starting an "Incredible but true rostering" thread,for example..
We can then post some actual roster lines,without naming companies...We know the press are paying attention,maybe they should be our direct line to the punters,who don't realise what they are sacrificing,for their cut price travel!

beachbumflyer

16th Aug 2018, 09:16

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-08-16/ryanair-pilots-say-talks-set-to-resume-in-bid-to-end-strike

Rated De

18th Aug 2018, 06:18

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-08-16/ryanair-pilots-say-talks-set-to-resume-in-bid-to-end-strike

Chief Executive Officer Michael O’Leary says he won’t accept terms that jeopardize the low cost base that’s made his company so dominant in short-haul flying.

Paradoxically for Michael, the low unit cost is a result of two things 1: Over supply of pilots 2: Adversarial employment relations.
The entire business model is flawed. It is flawed for an elementary reason, with pre- condition 1 not being met, pre- condition 2 no longer holds.
Therefore given that operating unit cost is effectively fixed (with the exception of labour) and reduction in asymmetry is ipso facto a risk to business continuance of this model.

Unless RYR abandons their pre - conditions which from all elements of the business are driven, they may well find their business model is a continued but inevitable decline. .
As is well known, they cherry picked the elements they wanted from Southwest's model leaving out the most important part; treating people with respect.
This is precisely why, as detailed eloquently Jody Gittel, despite a lower unit cost for RYR, their productivity was no where close.
Effectively there is nothing new, business that treat employees well, who in turn treat customers well, add far more value to a business that can be input on a spreadsheet.

The chances of Mr O'Leary having a 'Road to Damascus' moment are not good...
The question for the board is when do they begin the hunt for a replacement who gets the real vulnerability of their current structure.
Perhaps it is time to send him to the woodshed?

Cows getting bigger

18th Aug 2018, 06:30

To quote Branson (who I must admit isn't perfect):"Train people well enough so they can leave, treat them well enough so they don't want to."

El Capitano

20th Aug 2018, 00:37

You RYR pilots going for strike have the full support of worldwide pilot community!
Stick together and don,t give up till O leary and his management will leave the company!

Dan_Brown

22nd Aug 2018, 09:56

Cheques In The Post??

https://a.msn.com/r/2/BBMh2KB?m=en-gb&referrerID=InAppShare

No I don't believe it.

NutLoose

22nd Aug 2018, 10:52

I wonder if they will refund the interest they have earned on the monies they never paid out and also the charges some of them have incurred.

zerograv

22nd Aug 2018, 13:02

Believe that the old principle of "all publicity is good publicity" lives on ...

The other principle of: "stall the process", "BS as much as possible", and "gain time", so that they will give up, is also alive and well ...

Sonikt

22nd Aug 2018, 13:26

Believe that the old principle of "all publicity is good publicity" lives on ...

But in this instance it's working against Ryanair

The subtext of the issue is that despite FR protestations compensation IS payable for cancellations due to strikes. This can only encourage more claims.

EU261 is the elephant in the room, it's the biggest potential cost of any strike action. The longer the dispute drags on, the more pax will realise they can claim. This alone will prevent FR facing down strikes for any length of time.

zerograv

22nd Aug 2018, 17:24

But in this instance it's working against Ryanair

It's natural that one would think that way ...

In the link provided 4 posts above, one of the persons complaining about the bounced cheque mentions that the bounced cheque cost him 32 Euros (£29) in bank expenses. This will help to create doubt in the people ability to obtain compensation from RYR for their concelled flights. Some will just give up the idea of depositing the cheques provided by RYR, fearing it will end up costing them even more money. Even if it's just a small percentage of people that end up not claiming their compensation, the amount of money saved by RYR will be alot.

Voila ... "bad publicity" produces good results.

Don't ever underestimate the "creative" thinking of MOL and his team ...

ayroplain

22nd Aug 2018, 17:28

The subtext of the issue is that despite FR protestations compensation IS payable for cancellations due to strikes. This can only encourage more claims..

The situation in April was that more court cases would most likely ensue from the airlines - particularly as the threat of compensation was considered an unfair advantage to unions in disputes.

See https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/air-france-strike-flight-compensations-cancellations-delays-passengers-ecj-ruling-a8309971.html

Has there been any further court test cases? Did Air France and BA have to subsequently pay out where they had previously not. I can't see Ryanair paying compensation if neither Air France nor BA did.

Sonikt

22nd Aug 2018, 17:48

The situation in April was that more court cases would most likely ensue from the airlines - particularly as the threat of compensation was considered an unfair advantage to unions in disputes.

See https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/air-france-strike-flight-compensations-cancellations-delays-passengers-ecj-ruling-a8309971.html

Has there been any further court test cases? Did Air France and BA have to subsequently pay out where they had previously not. I can't see Ryanair paying compensation if neither Air France nor BA did.

No there have not been any further court cases - tellingly AF and BA decided not to dispute the very clear legal president that EU261 is payable in case of strike action by airline employees.

Obviously they were smart enough to let sleeping dogs lie

Sonikt

22nd Aug 2018, 17:52

Even if it's just a small percentage of people that end up not claiming their compensation, the amount of money saved by RYR will be alot.

Don't ever underestimate the "creative" thinking of MOL and his team ...

Ooh I seem to have touched a nerve...must be on the right track!

A business model based on breaking the law is indeed ingenious. Until that law gets enforced, as per CAA action last year.

Good luck Michael, you are going to need it

Alycidon

23rd Aug 2018, 20:05

"all publicity is good publicity"

The great unwashed now know that they can actually receive compensation cheques issued by Ryanair!

BluSdUp

24th Aug 2018, 16:16

Just an observation:
At this time of the year it has always been possible to book flights for next summer season . Most airlines has had this out for a long time.
It is not possible to book a ticket with RYR on a lot of destinations .
Lack of crew ?
Certainly not lack of aircraft.
Just saying !
Cpt B

Alpine Flyer

24th Aug 2018, 20:25

Airlines having to pay EU compensation in case of strike action is a double-edged sword. It will certainly hurt LCCs most as they have to pay out a lot more than they got for the tickets, but it might also allow airlines to claim this as damages from unions in jurisdictions entertaining such claims. It is also not in line with the principle of compensation that are meant not to apply if delays/cancellations are caused by events outside the airlines's control (which seems to apply to a strike).

All the best to the RYR pilots nevertheless.

BluSdUp

24th Aug 2018, 20:43

Alpine
I think You will find that RYR has hardly payed a cent to anyone.
Rebooking and small sums, hassel and a lot of smoke, add some time and : Voila bygones.

With regards to taking Unions to court. NEVER.
First we would fight that to any high court . Second RYR would cease to exist long before that due lack of pilots.

And Mr Alpine, a strike is ALWAYS inside the control of any airline.
Most certainly this one.

Rated De

24th Aug 2018, 21:20

With the potent reality emerging to even the most bolted on IR thug, that unlimited supply is no more, an eerie silence is permeating the halls of the Airside business park in Dublin.

Ancient Observer

26th Aug 2018, 15:01

Taking the TUs to Court due to a possibly "unlawful" strike and the EU Comp payouts would be, er, interesting. There is some Research that would suggest that as a strike develops, both sides "dig in", - as long as they can afford the cost - and as they dig in, their attitudes to the other party harden, and their need to "win" becomes stronger.
So, a Court action might be a risk neither side wants to take.
But, being an idiot in IR terms is not unknown.

beachbumflyer

27th Aug 2018, 17:38

Ryanair and its Irish pilots reach a deal. Let's see what happens in other European countries.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ryanair-ends-deadlock-inks-labor-144802145.html

BluSdUp

30th Aug 2018, 18:52

Hi
A quick update:
According a press release from RYR the Italian based pilots has signed and accepted a CLA ( Collective Labor Agreement)
According to RYR Italy represents 20 of the total production.

ExDubai

10th Sep 2018, 19:45

The Saga continues......
German pilots and cabin crew will strike on Wednesday. Link only in german, sorry
Ryanair: Deutsche Piloten wollen am Mittwoch erneut streiken - SPIEGEL ONLINE (http://m.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/ryanair-deutsche-piloten-wollen-am-mittwoch-erneut-streiken-a-1227463.html)

BluSdUp

10th Sep 2018, 20:51

Ah , Now we are using words I like.
The Saga.
That indicates History is made.
There is more news on rte.ie and since I can not make a link to the article You all have to find it Yourself, sorry!

But in short , the German RYR employed pilots will have a 24 hrs strike.
What is more , RYR annual meeting (AMG) on the 20 sept is closed to the press AND no press conference afterwards.
I sense change in the air.
Regards
Cpt B

beachbumflyer

11th Sep 2018, 14:06

Pilots and cabin crews,
Don't give in.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-09-11/ryanair-faces-german-strikes-despite-labor-advances-elsewhere?srnd=premium-europe

India Four Two

11th Sep 2018, 20:43

What is more , RYR annual meeting (AMG) on the 20 sept is closed to the press AND no press conference afterwards.

What happens if a journalist, who is also a shareholder, shows up?

BluSdUp

11th Sep 2018, 21:22

Or a Union Pilot.
Anyone, Eh!

Sonikt

14th Sep 2018, 13:01

RYR annual meeting (AMG) on the 20 sept is closed to the press AND no press conference afterwards.
I sense change in the air.

The imposition of a news blackout at the AGM is somewhat desperate - if anything it shows MOL and co must feel they have lost control of the narrative.

But North Korea this is not...the truth will out regardless...and such clumsy attempt to suppress it will no doubt draw the ire of many in the press.

In a vacuum conspiracy theories will abound - Is there a shareholder revolt? Is there a schism in senior management? Is the company trying to hide something, like a serious financial or operational issue?

As I have said before, FR senior management are conditioned to always getting their own way; their inability to fight effectively from the back foot is becoming more evident by the day. It's looking increasingly likely that heads will roll before this is over, all the way to the top.

Airone2977

14th Sep 2018, 13:42

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/major-pension-scheme-to-recommend-vote-against-ryanair-at-controversial-agm-37316277.html

Rated De

14th Sep 2018, 21:35

From the article...

Ryanair’s employment issues highlight long-standing concerns about governance and in particular Mr Bonderman’s oversight role as chair of the board and his ability to influence the CEO, Michael O’Leary.”

Finally we see the pendulum swing the other way.

Questions about the company’s business model and governance now pose a threat to shareholder value.

The company's business model is predicated on unlimited supply not only of pilots but all labour unit cost (AKA employees)
TPG aren't really known for their appreciation of humanity, like most private equity, the strategy is strip out cost, lever the balance sheet, break things up and sell them off...Rather like Mr O'Leary and the architects of the adversarial industrial model, a Chair, CEO and senior management welded to an adversarial business model ought rightly be sent to the woodshed. The whole business model needs to change, it has had its day.
"

4runner

14th Sep 2018, 23:04

AirLine Pilots Association, aka ALPA

gearlever

19th Sep 2018, 18:17

From the article...
Finally we see the pendulum swing the other way.

The company's business model is predicated on unlimited supply not only of pilots but all labour unit cost (AKA employees)
TPG aren't really known for their appreciation of humanity, like most private equity, the strategy is strip out cost, lever the balance sheet, break things up and sell them off...Rather like Mr O'Leary and the architects of the adversarial industrial model, a Chair, CEO and senior management welded to an adversarial business model ought rightly be sent to the woodshed. The whole business model needs to change, it has had its day.
"

And it keeps going on....

German Pilots versus FR Management (http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/ryanair-piloten-wollen-michael-o-leary-loswerden-a-1229019.html)

gearlever

19th Sep 2018, 18:37

Spanish court rules former Ryanair pilot was employee not contractor (https://www.euronews.com/2018/09/19/spanish-court-rules-former-ryanair-pilot-was-employee-not-contractor)

beachbumflyer

26th Sep 2018, 16:18

More strikes

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ryanair-cancels-flights-cabin-crew-144502273.html

golfyankeesierra

26th Sep 2018, 17:47

And from the EU commissioner:
"Respecting EU law is not something over which workers should have to negotiate, nor is it something which can be done differently from country to country. I made this very clear to Mr. O'Leary today. I am not against Ryanair or against the low-cost business model. But with great success also comes great responsibility. The internal market is not a jungle; it has clear rules on fair labour mobility and worker protection. This is not an academic debate, but about concrete social rights of worker."
Commissioner Thyssen receives Ryanair CEO Michael O'Leary - Employment, Social Affairs & Inclusion - European Commission (http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?langId=en&catId=89&newsId=9195&furtherNews=yes)

Luke258

26th Sep 2018, 18:17

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x1480/20180926_201200_72592355c985999a841ae9a53a002850da445574.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x1480/20180926_201249_37ba6d7004c71f6fcf1ee7293c989e27c8e3e72d.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x1480/20180926_201409_05a5901590d1362232320ebd6d51b0692fae44e8.jpg

thepilot91

26th Sep 2018, 19:32

Very interesting stuff, as a pilot with tons of loans and no hours nor aviation job this gives a bit of hope.

BigFrank

28th Sep 2018, 16:27

and its CEO

From the Irish Times today

Not that I can guarantee the authenticity or reliability of any (character) judgements contained therein

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/inside-ryanair-michael-o-leary-s-making-of-a-nicer-airline-1.3634667

45989

28th Sep 2018, 21:48

They must be getting desperate. Quote in the Irish Times of Ryanair blaming Norwegian and TAP Cabin crew organising the strikes. :D
Desperation I'd say is right but the PR 'guru' could have learned a lot from a certain propaganda artist of the 1930's.
Subtlety was never a ryr strongpoint.
A lot to do with despite 'We'll be nice' the culture always shows in the end

JPJP

29th Sep 2018, 00:11

Desperation I'd say is right but the PR 'guru' could have learned a lot from a certain propaganda artist of the 1930's. Subtlety was never a ryr strongpoint. A lot to do with despite 'We'll be nice' the culture always shows in the end

O’Leary hired Jacobs to communicate for him. Here’s his message -

“We want people to say, “This is a commoditised, functional experience getting from Dublin to London, from London to Madrid.”

No wonder they’re in such deep trouble. O’Leary should have let the Labrador do his job.

His dudeness

29th Sep 2018, 10:28

It’s not an image,” he responded. “It’s real. I’ve always been a nice guy, just misunderstood.”

The words of every thug ever used at their trials. Does Mr.O'Leary realize that ?

El Capitano

29th Sep 2018, 12:05

That clown O Leary and his scum management will never stop disrespecting the rights of their pilots, cabin crew and passengers.
Keep on fighting hard and continue with pan-european strikes till you got O Leary on his knees.
The aviation world will be a lot better off without him.
O Lesry its time to leave! Then maybe RYR can really become a copy of Southwest Airlines where both pilots and cabin crew have fine conditions, do their work happy and this will attract even more passengers. 71000 euro base salary vs 200000 us dollar in the US for a low cost captain.
This can only be achieved with staying unionised and don,t give up fighting. Strike, strike and continue strike till you get your conditiins you want and deserve! Good Luck!

E.C.

beachbumflyer

1st Oct 2018, 10:12

It would have been easier and less expensive if they treated and paid their employees decently.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-10-01/ryanair-lowers-full-year-profit-outlook-on-strikes-fuel-costs?srnd=premium-europe

El Capitano

1st Oct 2018, 11:58

This was to be expected. Now clown O Leary and his scum management is closing down Eindhoven as a base after the strike on the 28th of september. He keeps on intimidating his pilots and cabin crew.

All RYR pilots and cabin crew, please don,t give up. Stay unionised and stay united and continue with pan-European strikes.
A few strikes are not enough!
RYR is feeling the financial pain already and passengers are less confident in choosing your airline.
By this O Leary will loose the trust of his shareholders and will finally be forced to leave.

Keep on fighting hard for the better conditions you deserve!

Free Range

1st Oct 2018, 21:13

RYR is a very compelling distressed equity opportunity with a very robust GDS / 150 Airlines

RYR needs a strategic capital infusion to sooth BOEING & AMADEUS’

Chris2303

2nd Oct 2018, 04:25

A LoCo on Amadeus????

Must have been a VERY good deal!

His dudeness

2nd Oct 2018, 07:09

RYR to close BRE (2 a/c), and taking 2 of 5 a/c off Weeze.

And naturally, that has nothing to do with strikes, its just because of falling bookings. Most of the routes will be continued though.

IF the EU wants to have any credibility, it has to stop this. Either employees have rights or they don´t.

Source (in German):
https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article181733912/Ryanair-schliesst-nach-Streiks-wichtigen-Standort-in-Deutschland.html

As a reminder:
"It’s not an image,” he responded. “It’s real. I’ve always been a nice guy, just misunderstood.”

I guess, he looses a lot of sleep over the closure of the BRE base.

vikingivesterled

2nd Oct 2018, 23:20

A LoCo on Amadeus????

Must have been a VERY good deal!

Amadeus a couple of years ago bought Navitaire/NewSkies/OpenSkies, the so far de-facto standard reservations system for LoCos and the core of Ryanair's system since 2000 when they really started selling all their seats on the web.

BluSdUp

3rd Oct 2018, 12:38

I am wondering what RYR want to achieve by closing BRE and EIN base 5 of November, except for the obvious union busting.
It is quite clear to me though , that this is a severe escalation from RYRs side and will scare away hundreds of FOs ready to upgrade.
Some old Captains are also refreshing the old CV , as we speak.
A rather self destructive move in my book.
But then again what do I know.

Gone Fishing.
Regards Cpt B

BluSdUp

3rd Oct 2018, 12:42

PS
Brent Oil just hit 85 dollar and will hit 120 if Iran stops exporting.
And Brexit is a crash out , until further notice.
DS

El Capitano

4th Oct 2018, 06:25

RYR pilots and cabin crew, keep on with your battle, get unionised and continue to strike!
In the US the unions are much stronger and even a low cost captain makes more than 200000 US dollars per year, plus 15 percent pension pay. At the majors the pay is even higher.

Keep on fighting till O Leary and his bandits will leave the ship.

Elephant and Castle

4th Oct 2018, 06:37

These base closures demonstrate more clearly than ever the need for proper local contracts. Closing a base with zero hours contracts is as easy as just rostering you from a new base. Is a zero cost option for the company. Closing a base with local contracts means going through a consultation and a redundancy process plus paying out the legal compensation. Closing a base with local contracts and union representation means entering a negotiation leading to minimising the disruption to employees plus paying above the legal compensation. The more aggressive the behaviour the greater the need for union representation.

fox niner

1st Nov 2018, 06:39

Today, at 1100 CET (1000Z) a judge in the Netherlands will present a ruling on the Ryanair base closure at Eindhoven. The pilot union in NL has asked for a legal ruling in this matter on short notice, because Ryanair claims it can close bases OUTSIDE of Ireland, based on Irish law. The pilot union claims that Dutch law is appliccable at Eindhoven. (implying that a base closure is not possible just like that based on local labor law, workers rights, employer legal responsibility.)
Expect some fireworks, regardless the outcome. Will keep you posted.

Longhitter

1st Nov 2018, 11:09

This is going to be interesting: a Dutch judge just ruled that Ryanair may not close its base at Eindhoven. The judge deemed it likely that the base closure was a revenge exercise, pilots must continue to be paid and kept current. I wonder what MOL's next move will be. In Dutch:

https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2018/11/01/ryanair-moet-basis-eindhoven-openhouden-a2753562

https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/economie/artikel/4470521/ryanair-rechtszaak-basis-eindhoven

BluSdUp

1st Nov 2018, 12:18

Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall
All the King`s Horses and all the King`s Men
Coulden`t put Humpty together again

fox niner

1st Nov 2018, 12:22

This is the actual text of the ruling : (in Dutch)

https://uitspraken.rechtspraak.nl/inziendocument?id=ECLI:NL:RBOBR:2018:5330&showbutton=true&keyword=Ryanair

Highlights:

1. Ryanair has misused its power as an employer, and will be held responsible for its employees
2. If a company has based aircraft and personnel in the Netherlands, dutch labor law will allways be appliccable to those employees.
3. Ryanair must keep the base open/is forbidden to close down in Eindhoven
4. Ryanair must keep the employees employed, and must continue to pay their salaries. If ryanair does not pay up at the end of each month, they have to pay €250.000 euro’s per pilot
5 Ryanair must facilitate that they do not lose their currency/licence. If Ryanair does not facilitate this, they have to pay 50.000 euro’s per pilot

Furthermore, this ruling will be in effect immediately. (uitvoering bij voorraad) In dutch law, this means that Ryanair can appeal, but this ruling will be in effect and all payments have to be made and are legally binding. (Until an appeal judge rules otherwise)

BluSdUp

1st Nov 2018, 12:34

Fox Niner
Brilliant
Does it also say anything about it being illegal to reverse any flights from Eindhovens destinations and serve the routes from the destinations , as for example was planed in Oslo Rygge two years ago, or Billund or Copenhagen or Bremen etc.

BluSdUp

1st Nov 2018, 12:36

I suppose that is what the Judge could see happening, Eh!?

ayroplain

1st Nov 2018, 15:23

2. If a company has based aircraft and personnel in the Netherlands, dutch labor law will allways be appliccable to those employees.
3. Ryanair must keep the base open/is forbidden to close down in Eindhoven
4. Ryanair must keep the employees employed, and must continue to pay their salaries. If ryanair does not pay up at the end of each month, they have to pay €250.000 euro’s per pilot

Just being devil's advocate here in relation to a court assuming authority to tell a European company how to run its business. If, for example, Debenhams, who are in the process of closing lots of stores, have stores in Holland they wish to close will they be in court to be told:

1. If a company has personnel in the Netherlands, dutch labor law will always be applicable to those employees.
2. Debenhams must keep the stores open/is forbidden to close down in Eindhoven
3. Debenhams must keep the employees employed, and must continue to pay their salaries. If Debenhams does not pay up at the end of each month, they have to pay €xxxxx euro’s per staff member

172_driver

1st Nov 2018, 16:01

1. Seems entirely reasonable, doesn't it?

2 and 3 may follow from 1. I don't know the details, I am sure there is more to the story than just "Ryanair is not allowed to close a non-profitable base".

BluSdUp

1st Nov 2018, 17:38

Eindhoven is a very successful base.
What RYR does is punishing the Pilots for unionizing and exercising the right they have in NL by reversing the flights and harassing the pilots by offering bases they do not want. (Kaunas being one of them offered to Bremen crew!!!!)
So it has nothing to do with an unsuccessful and shrinking business, it is pure Union busting, and the Dutch Judge has put a stop to it.
If based in a EU Country, You have to follow local labor rules.
The new bases in Marseilles and Bordeaux are to follow French rules , dont You think!?
In Norway it was established that the case of a cabin crew wrongfully fired by RYR , was to be held in Norwegian court under Norwegian Labor Law!
RYR settled by giving her 3 YEARS Pay.
Then closed Oslo Rygge Base.

SMT Member

1st Nov 2018, 19:00

Just being devil's advocate here in relation to a court assuming authority to tell a European company how to run its business. If, for example, Debenhams, who are in the process of closing lots of stores, have stores in Holland they wish to close will they be in court to be told:

1. If a company has personnel in the Netherlands, dutch labor law will always be applicable to those employees.
2. Debenhams must keep the stores open/is forbidden to close down in Eindhoven
3. Debenhams must keep the employees employed, and must continue to pay their salaries. If Debenhams does not pay up at the end of each month, they have to pay €xxxxx euro’s per staff member

1. Yes
2 & 3. Yes, if they're closing down business according to UK and not NL law. If, however, they're closing shop in accordance with NL law, obviously they will not be told to remain open or keep paying salaries beyond the legal redundancy period as stipulated by NL law.

What Ryanair are trying, again, is to pretend IE labour law can be used throughout the EU. That's not the case, and Ryanair have lost every single court case - and there's been a few of them - where this topic has been contended. Every single one. Yet they keep trying, and it's very pleasing to once more see a court telling them to fark orf and play by the local rules.

Rated De

2nd Nov 2018, 00:05

Globalisation allowed corporations avoid any affinity with their country of incorporation, they were able to abandon any social contract, avoid taxation and importantly widen the net for employees.
Companies like Ryan Air grew from the dark realisation that a gloablised workforce could be sourced at 'low cost' from an increasing number of places.
Zero hour contracts, the ultimate in flexibility. Like the past era of lining up at a business on any given day hoping to be picked from the crowd it represented the high water mark of adversarial employment relations.

Increasingly as the western hemisphere has declined concentrating wealth in fewer and fewer hands, there is a growing awareness that the pendulum swung too far one way.

As it was for generations past, the collective standing together will eventually wrestle balance.
This is a necessary first step and a myriad of other dark airline IR departments are watching developments carefully.

The way this 'company' has been permitted to 'operate' is a disgrace and the courts are beginning to recognise it.
Bonderman and O'Leary are modern day robber barons, history will record them as such for they are a stain.

Longtimer

2nd Nov 2018, 00:09

Rated De

2nd Nov 2018, 00:16

Curious though, BA is all over the world, so what governs their actions? UK Law or the law of the country they operate in? Do they have crew bases outside of the UK and if so what law prevales?

Great question.
Perhaps there are a few strands.
Waterside has pulled their hair out over the pension scheme. A lovely handball from the Tories. BA is a bit of a pension scheme with an airline bolted on.
Is the relationship with Iberia designed to lever cheaper labour in Spain? One might argue this is the eventual aim of Mr Walsh; replacing higher cost UK domiciled labour with cheaper continental EU labour.
If one looks at the data their airline 'group' is over-scale, suggestive that any synergy obtained wasn't from the combining of operations, rather that there was some other desire which they may have identified.

That a company domiciled in the UK ought comply with the law in the UK across the spectrum seems axiomatic, however one may be tempted to suggest that prior to such a ruling these airlines proceeded along until checked in court...

fox niner

2nd Nov 2018, 08:46

Originally Posted by ayroplain images/buttons/viewpost.gif (rumours-news/610789-ryanair-pilot-strike-post10298946.html#post10298946)
Just being devil's advocate here in relation to a court assuming authority to tell a European company how to run its business.
Actually, no. The court specifically said that it is up to a company to decide how to run its business.

Also, the court said that an Irish contract can be binding, also in the Netherlands, as long as it is also in accordance with Dutch and EU law. The Irish labor contract that both parties signed contains the following passages:

“LOCATION

(.........) This would include, for the avoidance of doubt, transfer to any of the Company’s bases without compensation. It must be understood that should you be transferred to another base you will be paid in accordance with the prevailing salary and flight pay system at that base.”

“EXCESS CAPACITY

(............) If the Company are required to reduce activity levels for any reason, it is a condition of this job offer that you agree and accept the right of the Company, at its sole discretion, to give you compulsory unpaid leave for the duration of the period the Company considers as excess capacity. For the avoidance of doubt you are not entitled to any payment during the period of compulsory unpaid leave.”

The judge ruled that these passages are absolutely not in accordance with Dutch Law. Therefore they are NULL and VOID. (in dutch: NIETIG) This means, that even if you mutually decide upon these things, they will still be complete TOSH. And this goes beyond the Ryanair contract in Eindhoven; the judge stated that this ruling is made to protect employees in the Netherlands in general, even if employees agree to waiver the right to this protection. You can NOT waiver your workers rights. Because these rights are also the workers' rights of all other 17 million people in the Netherlands.

Back to Debenhams.

Firing people, or re-locating people, is part of normal business proceedings. And especially in an open economy as we have here in NL. The way it works here, is as follows: If you have a good reason to re-locate or fire employees, then you will be able to do so. If Debenhams goes bankrupt, then you have a good reason to lay off staff. If Debenhams wants to re-locate staff, then you need to compensate. You also need a so-called Social Plan, whitch is an official document, which outlines how you, as an employer, are going to deal with your staff during the coming months during the re-organisation and transition to the new reality.
However.
Re-locating employees to the other side of Europe, with 1 months' notice, is not acceptable in NL.
Firing people because they do not agree to move to the fringes of Europe within 1 month, is not acceptable either.

I am sure that Ryanair will try to sneak out of this ruling. They will not succeed, and they know it. I do expect that Ryanair will think twice before starting another base here.

Aso

2nd Nov 2018, 09:59

Originally Posted by ayroplain images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://rumours-news/610789-ryanair-pilot-strike-post10298946.html#post10298946)
Just being devil's advocate here in relation to a court assuming authority to tell a European company how to run its business.

Just being devil's advocate: why are not more countries stand up against companies not following local rules. I mean how come that a company like Starbucks is killing local mom and pop coffeeshops and at the same time pays ZERO tax in these countries. How come a company like Ryanair can abuse workersrights and thus undercut local operators...

The good news: this is just the begining as Ryanair is 200% on Europe's radar for all the wrong labor issues reasons...

ayroplain

2nd Nov 2018, 12:26

Thanks, fox niner, for your detailed explanation of Dutch Law in this respect. Very enlightening. I won't be replying to those who used my question purely as an excuse for an anti-Ryanair rant.

I suppose there must be good reasons why thousands of pilots have worked and still work for Ryanair but I wouldn't expect to get the answer on this website.

vikingivesterled

2nd Nov 2018, 14:21

Re-locating employees to the other side of Europe

If distance is the major issue in the ruling then Eindhoven is very close to the border with Belgium and Ryanair have 2 large bases there that they could move the crew to.

SanHor

3rd Nov 2018, 06:59

The letter from Ryanair according to the Dutch media:
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x450/xxl_828e80d8cfd561e9c3324e0fe8c6f6d828ad59d9.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/900x1200/dq_biuixqaah7ta_44ebd5f6393bd31ffcd7a5bbe42cdef7db1a096b.jpg

infrequentflyer789

3rd Nov 2018, 15:55

What Ryanair are trying, again, is to pretend IE labour law can be used throughout the EU. That's not the case, and Ryanair have lost every single court case - and there's been a few of them - where this topic has been contended. Every single one. Yet they keep trying, and it's very pleasing to once more see a court telling them to fark orf and play by the local rules.

Interesting looking at this from the UK where one major political party seemed to base its entire referendum campaign on "the EU is good because it gives us employment rights" - surely then this is Ryanair trying to pretend that EU labour law can be used throughout the EU. Unless Ireland is out of compliance (again)? Companies having to play by different local rules in 28 different countries is one of the things the single market is supposed to resolve, isn't it?

flyingmed

3rd Nov 2018, 16:20

SMT Member

3rd Nov 2018, 18:12

If Ryanair do have to keep the base open and end up losing money in EIN who will cover the cost? I doubt any loss would be made however some creative accountancy could show losses. If a company are losing money in a certain branch of the business the usual response is either restructuring and/or job cuts, how is it different here?

Nobody is forcing Ryanair to keep EIN open, but they are being 'forced' to comply with NL law with respect to closing the base down. Had Ryanair followed the rules, they would have been free to close the base. They chose not to, in the process thereof breaking Dutch law and, well, the obvious happened.

SMT Member

3rd Nov 2018, 18:20

Interesting looking at this from the UK where one major political party seemed to base its entire referendum campaign on "the EU is good because it gives us employment rights" - surely then this is Ryanair trying to pretend that EU labour law can be used throughout the EU. Unless Ireland is out of compliance (again)? Companies having to play by different local rules in 28 different countries is one of the things the single market is supposed to resolve, isn't it?

A quick google will answer that question. In essence, EU labour law revolves around 4 principles: Individual labour rights, anti-discrimination regulations, right to information and consultation at work and rights to job security. Those are the minimum requirements EU nations must comply with, but each nation is free to extend the rights of workers as their elected governments see fit. Hence the ability for e.g. IE based companies to hire people on zero-hour contracts, or force employees to move to another location without compensation, something which is expressly forbidden in other, more employee friendly, jurisdictions.

In this particular case Ryanair tried to apply Irish law to Dutch labour, and that didn't fly. Which anybody who's been following these cases could have told them and, I suspect, they knew already. Please also note that Ryanair is not appealing the ruling, as such an appeal would set a precedent they really don't want, choosing instead to bury head in sand and continue to pretend they can operate under Irish law throughout Europe.

infrequentflyer789

3rd Nov 2018, 20:26

If Ryanair do have to keep the base open and end up losing money in EIN who will cover the cost? I doubt any loss would be made however some creative accountancy could show losses. If a company are losing money in a certain branch of the business the usual response is either restructuring and/or job cuts, how is it different here?

I don't think it is. The difference is that Ryanair was trying to use a clause in their contract that said you could be required to transfer and fired if you did not accept - that clause has been ruled unenforceable. Now they will have to go with redundancy procedures instead. Slightly more expensive for Ryanair, probably, same end result for crew, definitely.

flyingmed

3rd Nov 2018, 22:36

It did seem strange that a foreign court could get involved in the micromanagement of a company be it Ryanair or any other company which may face a similar issue. Very bad position for the crew unfortunately. Hopefully it works out in the end for them!

golfyankeesierra

3rd Nov 2018, 23:08

Now they will have to go with redundancy procedures instead.
Which only becomes interesting if you have been employed for a longer period of time. Shorter contracts like in this case won't pay much.

And I wonder if the pilots are going to see something of the €250000 penalty. The ruling only stipulates that it is the penalty for a mandatory base change; not for a discharge and not for a voluntary change (it was underlined 4 times in the Ryanair letter!).

golfyankeesierra

3rd Nov 2018, 23:17

It did seem strange that a foreign court could get involved in the micromanagement of a company be it Ryanair or any other company which may face a similar issue.!

Not true, the court isn't getting involved in the management. As I read it (not a lawyer) the ruling doen't affect the validity of the base closure, nor the validity of termination of contracts. It only judges the validity of the clause for base change, which is not in accordance with dutch law.

(And I really hope that I will turn out to be wrong!)

the_stranger

4th Nov 2018, 05:08

Which only becomes interesting if you have been employed for a longer period of time. Shorter contracts like in this case won't pay much.

And I wonder if the pilots are going to see something of the €250000 penalty. The ruling only stipulates that it is the penalty for a mandatory base change; not for a discharge and not for a voluntary change (it was underlined 4 times in the Ryanair letter!).
In Dutch law, when to be discharged, the employer would have to get permission from the social security office, making it plausible they discharge them because of economic reasons. They also have to present a decent plan to help those discharged get other jobs, keep them in the company, etc. This has to comply with Dutch law.

In this case, this seems difficult and if permission is not granted, ryanair has to go to court. The judges might not be favourable to ryanair, judging from the last courtcase and while they might make it possible for ryanair to discharge the pilots, they then have to pay a significant som, probably as much as that 250.000, but maybe more.

golfyankeesierra

4th Nov 2018, 08:53

, they then have to pay a significant som,
It is usually around (nr of years in service) x (monthly gross salary), so a few months... not getting close to 250000..

(again, hope I will be proven wrong!)

flyingmed

4th Nov 2018, 13:25

In Dutch law, when to be discharged, the employer would have to get permission from the social security office, making it plausible they discharge them because of economic reasons. They also have to present a decent plan to help those discharged get other jobs, keep them in the company, etc. This has to comply with Dutch law.

From what I've read the pilots are not being fired, they are being offered to change base and remain employed or leave the company. The internal memo which was attached to a previous post seems to show this is the move the company are taking. I worked a few years ago for a European wide company in the automotive industry which closed a branch in the UK and to avoid firing employees they offered to change department or leave. Nobody in that case was paid any form of compensation as it was seen as an attempt by the company to keep everyone employed. This looks awfully similar to that. Unfortunately it looks like all possible outcomes here are going to be very bad for the pilots involved.

Did Ryanair make any agreements with the Dutch pilot union like other countries? I have heard some unions around Europe have come to the negotiating table with long lists of demands on pay and benefits as apposed to laying the foundations for a viable long term strategy to stop base closures & undesired base changes etc. If this is the case that seems more like a strategy to cause problems for Ryanair with strikes etc rather than look out for the wellbeing of the crew they are supposed to be negotiating for.

172_driver

4th Nov 2018, 14:51

Did Ryanair make any agreements with the Dutch pilot union like other countries? I have heard some unions around Europe have come to the negotiating table with long lists of demands on pay and benefits as apposed to laying the foundations for a viable long term strategy to stop base closures & undesired base changes etc. If this is the case that seems more like a strategy to cause problems for Ryanair with strikes etc rather than look out for the wellbeing of the crew they are supposed to be negotiating for.

Yeah, let's get deprived of all our rights just to keep the base going and management richer. Unbeknown to you much of what unions are asking for is no primadonna treatment. How about things like summer holiday, sick payment entitlements, maternity/paternity leave, loss of license insurance. It's Ryanair throwing toys out of the cot saying those things are unreasonable demands. What do you think?

flyingmed

4th Nov 2018, 18:03

Yeah, let's get deprived of all our rights just to keep the base going and management richer. Unbeknown to you much of what unions are asking for is no primadonna treatment. How about things like summer holiday, sick payment entitlements, maternity/paternity leave, loss of license insurance. It's Ryanair throwing toys out of the cot saying those things are unreasonable demands. What do you think?

Ryanair pilots are deprived of those things already. I was pointing to the fact that you need to build a solid foundation before you can build something. I work for a more 'reputable airline' and although we do have sick pay etc we do not have LOL insurance.

If the unions had taken the longer term goals into consideration why not demand local permanent contracts for crew first? That would then have immediately allowed access to basic benefits such as sick pay and maternity/paternity leave under local legislation (I'm sure in a country like Holland the local laws would stipulate very favorable benefits to the employees). Things like summer leave and loss of license insurance take a very long time to negotiate and can be dragged out for an even longer time by management, in the meantime at least you would have had your base covered by a local contract subject to local law and collective work agreement.

We all know the usual argument of ask for everything and hope to get as much as possible, but in reality the more you ask for the more of a hard line the company will take. Asking firstly for job security through local contracts may possibly have been quite an easy win, especially when FR were short on crew! Leave the big fight for summer leave, LOL, pensions etc. until the next argument where at least your job in a specific base is secure, at least then the threat of closing a base or firing staff is nullified by the previous agreement.

SigWit

5th Nov 2018, 07:31

From what I've read the pilots are not being fired, they are being offered to change base and remain employed or leave the company. The internal memo which was attached to a previous post seems to show this is the move the company are taking. I worked a few years ago for a European wide company in the automotive industry which closed a branch in the UK and to avoid firing employees they offered to change department or leave. Nobody in that case was paid any form of compensation as it was seen as an attempt by the company to keep everyone employed. This looks awfully similar to that. Unfortunately it looks like all possible outcomes here are going to be very bad for the pilots involved.

Did Ryanair make any agreements with the Dutch pilot union like other countries? I have heard some unions around Europe have come to the negotiating table with long lists of demands on pay and benefits as apposed to laying the foundations for a viable long term strategy to stop base closures & undesired base changes etc. If this is the case that seems more like a strategy to cause problems for Ryanair with strikes etc rather than look out for the wellbeing of the crew they are supposed to be negotiating for.

In Dutch law, if you want to lay somebody off, you will have to prove it is because of 1 of 8 possible grounds.

The only ground that Ryanair can use in this case is the a-ground. For this, they have to prove that they are firing those employees due to economic reasons.

In the verdict on the first of November, the judge has already stated that the base closure is not a proven result of economic reason, but suspectibly done because of the strikes. He sees the closure as a misuse of power.
He has ruled the pilots will have to stay based in Eindhoven, get their salary, and maintain their currency.

So, if Ryanair decides to start a redundancy case to lay the pilots off, they will have to go to Dutch court again and prove the a-ground. Which, in the light of the 1 November verdict, is never going succeed.

flyingmed

5th Nov 2018, 11:44

He has ruled the pilots will have to stay based in Eindhoven, get their salary, and maintain their currency.

Think we can nearly all agree the pilots and cabin crew in Ryanair should get much better contracts. I also think we can all agree Ryanair are the masters of the numbers game, there is always an exploit. I'll believe the situation only when the highest court in Holland rules in favour of keeping the base open.

Isn't it an economic case that they could earn more money elsewhere? I have no trust for that company, that is why im so pessimistic!

ayroplain

5th Nov 2018, 13:59

In Dutch law, if you want to lay somebody off, you will have to prove it is because of 1 of 8 possible grounds.
The only ground that Ryanair can use in this case is the a-ground. For this, they have to prove that they are firing those employees due to economic reasons.

Could you possibly list or link to the 8 grounds as I haven't been able to find them online? The use of the word "firing" is confusing the issue here even if you genuinely believe they are being fired ("dismissed")

He has ruled the pilots will have to stay based in Eindhoven, get their salary, and maintain their currency.

In researching more info on the NL laws it is necessary to find definitive rules that distinguish between "dismissal" of an employee and "redundancy" brought about by a company deciding to close its business.

This link is a summary of the redundancy payments situation in NL:

Redundancy payments in the Netherlands Netherlands Law Firm LVH Advocaten (http://www.kernkamp.nl/en/services/labour-and-employment-law/redundancy-payments-in-the-netherlands/)

On the face of it, it would be a ludicrous law that dictates that if an International company opens a branch in a NL town and then decides at some future point that it was not a good business decision to do so and wishes to close down it is obliged to comply with a law that says "the employees will have to stay based in the NL town and get their salary".

I couldn't find any law that states that and it is very hard to see how a higher court would agree with that decision.

During research I came across this Dutch case from earlier this year in which Ryanair's "dismissal" of an employee in Eindhoven was upheld in the courts. In this case Irish Law appears to have prevailed and the employee got no compensation.

https://www.lvh-advocaten.nl/en/the-instant-dismissal-by-ryanair-due-to-refusal-to-change-work-locations-is-upheld/

fox niner

5th Nov 2018, 14:26

Nice try ayroplain, but you are wrong.

That case you are referring to, is about a Ryanair cabin attendant. The link you have there is of the law firm that Ryanair had hired in that case. They won the first lower court ruling in 2017. Then this happened in the summer 2018:

https://uitspraken.rechtspraak.nl/inziendocument?id=ECLI:NL:GHSHE:2018:2826&showbutton=true&keyword=Ryanair

(sorry in dutch, but trust me)

Ryanair was slaughtered in court, and had to pay her everything she had claimed.

Furthermore, in the ryanair Pilot ruling, this particular earlier court ruling concerning the cabin attendant was mentioned and used as a guideline/evidence of jurisprudence. So...

SigWit

5th Nov 2018, 14:47

Could you possibly list or link to the 8 grounds as I haven't been able to find them online? The use of the word "firing" is confusing the issue here even if you genuinely believe they are being fired ("dismissed")

In researching more info on the NL laws it is necessary to find definitive rules that distinguish between "dismissal" of an employee and "redundancy" brought about by a company deciding to close its business.

This link is a summary of the redundancy payments situation in NL:

On the face of it, it would be a ludicrous law that dictates that if an International company opens a branch in a NL town and then decides at some future point that it was not a good business decision to do so and wishes to close down it is obliged to comply with a law that says "the employees will have to stay based in the NL town and get their salary".

I couldn't find any law that states that and it is very hard to see how a higher court would agree with that decision.

During research I came across this Dutch case from earlier this year in which Ryanair's "dismissal" of an employee in Eindhoven was upheld in the courts. In this case Irish Law appears to have prevailed and the employee got no compensation.

Sorry, I am not allowed to post links yet as I don’t have a minimum of 10 posts. But you are looking for Art 7:669 lid 3 Burgerlijk Wetboek.

Thing is, you could probably lay people off or force them to move if you close a base for business reasons. But thing is, the judge has already ruled it a misuse of power by Ryanair and thus told them to keep paying them and keep them current, irregardless of the closure. So I wish Ryanair a lot of luck laying these pilots off...

ayroplain

5th Nov 2018, 14:50

Nice try ayroplain, but you are wrong.
fox niner, I'm not trying anything just searching for facts. Very remiss of that Law Firm to have that case listed and not showing that it was subsequently overturned. How else is a body to know?

(sorry in dutch, but trust me)
LOL, I believe you :)

However, I still believe the decision is ludicrous from a business point of view and would be quite a deterrent to anyone thinking of starting up in NL.

ayroplain

5th Nov 2018, 15:06

Sorry, I am not allowed to post links yet as I don’t have a minimum of 10 posts. But you are looking for Art 7:669 lid 3 Burgerlijk Wetboek.

Thanks, SigWit,. I've had a look and translated (Google :) ) from Dutch.

I think there COULD be three possible grounds for Ryanair as follows:

a. the lapse of jobs as a result of the termination of the activities of the company or, for a future period of at least 26 weeks, necessarily lapse of workplaces as a result of the taking into account of business economics for efficient operations;

g. a disturbed employment relationship, such that the employer can not reasonably be required to continue the employment contract;

h. other than the aforementioned circumstances which are such that the employer can not reasonably be required to continue the employment contract

But, as you say, (a) stands out.

But thing is, the judge has already ruled it a misuse of power by Ryanair.

Well, all we can do now is wait and see.

the_stranger

5th Nov 2018, 15:27

However, I still believe the decision is ludicrous from a business point of view and would be quite a deterrent to anyone thinking of starting up in NL.
I certainly hope so, or that they at least think twice about how to run the company.
It really isn't that difficult, as long as you play nb the Dutch law. There are countless foreign companies in the Netherlands, but usually they are not as..... abrasive as ryanair.

fox niner

5th Nov 2018, 15:29

However, I still believe the decision is ludicrous from a business point of view and would be quite a deterrent to anyone thinking of starting up in NL.

I understand what you mean, however, there are thousands of foreign companies who do business in NL. Several global companies have their (regional) headquarters here, specifically because of the open economy and good business opportunities, and the well established legal base for doing business, and reliable government structure.

Ryanair is simply trying to bypass a set of very sensible laws and regulations, which a normal company is very happy to abide by. Don’t like real rules? Then you are not worthy.

SigWit

5th Nov 2018, 15:33

Thanks, SigWit,. I've had a look and translated (Google :) ) from Dutch.

I think there COULD be three possible grounds for Ryanair as follows:

a. the lapse of jobs as a result of the termination of the activities of the company or, for a future period of at least 26 weeks, necessarily lapse of workplaces as a result of the taking into account of business economics for efficient operations;

g. a disturbed employment relationship, such that the employer can not reasonably be required to continue the employment contract;

h. other than the aforementioned circumstances which are such that the employer can not reasonably be required to continue the employment contract

But, as you say, (a) stands out.

Well, all we can do now is wait and see.

If you are interested, google “ECLI:NL:RBOBR:2018:5330” the find the ruling regarding the forced basechange following the strikes.

And indeed, it will be very interesting to see how this pans out. Ryanair always operates at the boundaries of the law, and outcomes are very difficult to predict.

The pilots have refused the voluntary transfer by the way, and told Ryanair that they are available for flight based out of Eindhoven, as per court ruling. Ryanair will likely soon start the redundancy process, and then we will know more.

ayroplain

5th Nov 2018, 18:55

If you are interested, google “ECLI:NL:RBOBR:2018:5330” the find the ruling regarding the forced base change following the strikes.
Thanks SigWit, that was some read (after translation :)) and a lot to take in. Well worth it, though.

As people have said, it was, undoubtedly, as one-sided a judgment as I've possibly ever seen.

Trying to maintain a balance and bearing in mind that the strikes were, allegedly, the cause of the closure of the base, I couldn't find any mention of the judge requesting any details as to what the strikes were about. In my view this would have a considerable bearing in order to make a judgment on whether the pilots' demands were reasonable or not in the first place especially with future strikes promised if not conceded. Is that information in the public domain, i.e. the pilots' demands?

There was mention that one of the claimants was withdrawing his claim to which Ryanair agreed. It would be interesting to know why one decided to withdraw.

the_stranger

5th Nov 2018, 19:52

The judge ruled that ánd a previous threat to fire those who would strike ánd a lack of proof from ryanair that closure was indeed out of economics instead of revenge, was sufficient to indicate the real reason behind the closure.

If it was anything other than revenge, ryanair could and would have had an easy time proving it, but they didn't/couldn't.

And without a valide economic reason, Dutch law stipulates the forced transfer was illegal.

SigWit

5th Nov 2018, 20:00

Thanks SigWit, that was some read (after translation :)) and a lot to take in. Well worth it, though.

As people have said, it was, undoubtedly, as one-sided a judgment as I've possibly ever seen.

Trying to maintain a balance and bearing in mind that the strikes were, allegedly, the cause of the closure of the base, I couldn't find any mention of the judge requesting any details as to what the strikes were about. In my view this would have a considerable bearing in order to make a judgment on whether the pilots' demands were reasonable or not in the first place especially with future strikes promised if not conceded. Is that information in the public domain, i.e. the pilots' demands?

There was mention that one of the claimants was withdrawing his claim to which Ryanair agreed. It would be interesting to know why one decided to withdraw.

Firstly, something to keep in mind is the fact that workers have a lot of rights in the Netherlands. That may be the reason that some of the rulings may sound strange to foreigners.

One of the rights is the right to strike. For a judge the reason doesn't really matter, if a strike is a legal one the striking employees may not face ANY negative consequences.
(other then not getting paid for the days that they where striking). In this case no judge forbid the strike, so it is a legal one and whatever the demands were, it may not have negative consequences.

Big issue is also the fact that this is civil right. Unlike criminal law, it is way more lenient with proof. For example: The pilots claimed that the closure is due to the strikes. Ryanair claims it is due to economic reason but fails to prove so. Thus the judge rules that the closure is due to the strike (also based on letters send earlier by Ryanair stating that they will close the base if strikes occur, not so smart).

This is actually how the law works in The Netherlands, with a lot of protection for the workers, not so much for the companies. We will have to wait and see what happens when Ryanair declares those pilots redundant and goes to court. Your guess is as good as mine in that respect :)

ayroplain

5th Nov 2018, 22:46

Firstly, something to keep in mind is the fact that workers have a lot of rights in the Netherlands. That may be the reason that some of the rulings may sound strange to foreigners.

They sure do :).

One of the rights is the right to strike.

The right to strike exists in many countries but I don't know of any other country that accepts a situation that employees can strike for virtually anything, no matter how unreasonable and be protected to such an extent that they can't lose, no matter what.

It has been an interesting and very enlightening discussion and thanks to those, especially fox niner and SigWit, who contributed positively.

I look forward to seeing how it goes from here on. (I also look forward to seeing the next Johan Cruyff someday soon :))

the_stranger

5th Nov 2018, 23:25

If you, as an employer, believe the upcoming strike is unwarranted, you can easily go to court and ask a judge to decide if the strike has sufficient cause.
And more often than not strikes are either forbidden of limited after a ruling.
Besides that, striking is relative uncommon in the Netherlands, since trying to talk eachother into a compromise is the preferred option (polderen).

Nowadays a lot of employers decide not to talk and a strike is the logical result.

racedo

5th Nov 2018, 23:51

Firstly, something to keep in mind is the fact that workers have a lot of rights in the Netherlands. That may be the reason that some of the rulings may sound strange to foreigners.

One of the rights is the right to strike. For a judge the reason doesn't really matter, if a strike is a legal one the striking employees may not face ANY negative consequences.
(other then not getting paid for the days that they where striking). In this case no judge forbid the strike, so it is a legal one and whatever the demands were, it may not have negative consequences.

Big issue is also the fact that this is civil right. Unlike criminal law, it is way more lenient with proof. For example: The pilots claimed that the closure is due to the strikes. Ryanair claims it is due to economic reason but fails to prove so. Thus the judge rules that the closure is due to the strike (also based on letters send earlier by Ryanair stating that they will close the base if strikes occur, not so smart).

This is actually how the law works in The Netherlands, with a lot of protection for the workers, not so much for the companies. We will have to wait and see what happens when Ryanair declares those pilots redundant and goes to court. Your guess is as good as mine in that respect :)

An option that has not been considered here is Ryanair still pay their Eindhoven based people and ask them to turn up for work...................... however there is no work for them so they just sit around all day long. They required to be there as place of work where Ryanair control what is allowed in the crew room with a Ryanair staff manager in control.

Pilots will of course NOT be free to fly for someone else, they still get paid. After 2 years what is a pilot worth, who hasn't flown commerically in 2 years, no Sim time, in a standoff with their employer and are they "employable" elsewhere. Employers may have a different viewpoint.
EIN staff win but being in crew rooms daily where you know you will never fly will take its own toll on health and well being.

In Ryanair's case it can afford the financial cost because it would be sending a message to everywhere else but could the individuals ?

MarcK

6th Nov 2018, 00:25

Pilots will of course NOT be free to fly for someone else, they still get paid. After 2 years what is a pilot worth, who hasn't flown commerically in 2 years, no Sim time, in a standoff with their employer and are they "employable" elsewhere.
however. accprding to a previous post:
In the verdict on the first of November, the judge has already stated that the base closure is not a proven result of economic reason, but suspectibly done because of the strikes. He sees the closure as a misuse of power.
He has ruled the pilots will have to stay based in Eindhoven, get their salary, and maintain their currency.

Sorry Dog

6th Nov 2018, 00:33

Pilots will of course NOT be free to fly for someone else, they still get paid. After 2 years what is a pilot worth, who hasn't flown commerically in 2 years, no Sim time, in a standoff with their employer and are they "employable" elsewhere. Employers may have a different viewpoint.
?

Didn't the ruling say Ryanair was responsible for keeping the pilots current?

EIFFS

6th Nov 2018, 00:48

flyingmed

6th Nov 2018, 02:20

SigWit

6th Nov 2018, 05:34

What would stop Ryanair sending each pilot out of base for 1 day a month for currency followed by 3 weeks sitting in a briefing room? Costly to keep everyone sitting around a briefing room on 12 hour standbys but with the profits they are making its small change.

Nothing. As long as the pilots stay current, get their salary, and are based in Eindhoven, Ryanair complies with the court ruling.

If Ryanair loses the redundancy-courtcase, something like this will likely happen. They will always find a way to get back at people who tried to speak up, as a warning to others. They will never let the worker 'win'.

racedo

6th Nov 2018, 11:58

Nothing. As long as the pilots stay current, get their salary, and are based in Eindhoven, Ryanair complies with the court ruling.

If Ryanair loses the redundancy-courtcase, something like this will likely happen. They will always find a way to get back at people who tried to speak up, as a warning to others. They will never let the worker 'win'.

Who has then "WON".

Ultimately Ryanair can justifiably close the base at a later date, they making substantial losses because of the costs associated with paying staff to do nothing.
This bit is easy to quantify but you have a lot of people who have been sat around 5 days a week for 2 years in a base doing nothing.

flyingmed

6th Nov 2018, 12:40

Who has then "WON".

Ultimately Ryanair can justifiably close the base at a later date, they making substantial losses because of the costs associated with paying staff to do nothing.
This bit is easy to quantify but you have a lot of people who have been sat around 5 days a week for 2 years in a base doing nothing.

Even just 1 month of doing this. They could simply show the money made across their network in different bases and then show the loss which would be made in Eindhoven. Would that then become enough of an economic problem to close the base?

Lets hope this doesn't happen but we all know Ryanair will be there to 'win'

SMT Member

6th Nov 2018, 13:31

Even just 1 month of doing this. They could simply show the money made across their network in different bases and then show the loss which would be made in Eindhoven. Would that then become enough of an economic problem to close the base?

Lets hope this doesn't happen but we all know Ryanair will be there to 'win'

That would probably require a judge how's blind, daft and suffering from alzheimers. It would be exceedingly easy for the other party to make the case, that any losses sustained at the base was a direct consequence of them having umpteen crewmembers sat around doing nothing, whilst having crew from other bases doing the flights. Keep in mind a judge has already heard the case where Ryanair was unable to make their points stick. Them coming back saying 'look, we're losing money now' would probably not, as they say, fly in a court of law. It would be even harder for Ryanair to prove EIN is loss making, when all they've done is reverse the flights, effectively still serving the market. Ryanair's only hope would then be to completely shut down all flying to/from EIN - an airport which by all accounts is turning them a healthy profit. THEN they could lay off all staff, but obviously only in accordance with Dutch law as has been outlined previously in this thread.

racedo

6th Nov 2018, 15:11

Even just 1 month of doing this. They could simply show the money made across their network in different bases and then show the loss which would be made in Eindhoven. Would that then become enough of an economic problem to close the base?

Lets hope this doesn't happen but we all know Ryanair will be there to 'win'

A month is too short as can argue that this occurs in Wintertime on many bases, a year is a lot easier to justify at end of a full year while some would still want to go to court many would already want to move on. Leaving it as an all or nothing option means everybody is constrained by ones who want to continue fighting.

Shutting base completely is a perfectly valid option and exiting flying in there is a perfectly valid option as there are numerous cases where this has happened previously. Thes can be classified as business decisions.

I guess people need to think how reference would look assumming reference is "X employed from Y to Z at ABC base", an employer seeing Marc employed by Ryanair from Jan 2016 to Jan 2021 based at Eindhoven knowing he has not flown regularly for 2 years and part of a big dispute may just decide to go onto next CV.

Martyrs get lots of rhetoric in support but that doesn't make up for end of career.

racedo

6th Nov 2018, 15:13

That would probably require a judge how's blind, daft and suffering from alzheimers. It would be exceedingly easy for the other party to make the case, that any losses sustained at the base was a direct consequence of them having umpteen crewmembers sat around doing nothing, whilst having crew from other bases doing the flights. Keep in mind a judge has already heard the case where Ryanair was unable to make their points stick. Them coming back saying 'look, we're losing money now' would probably not, as they say, fly in a court of law. It would be even harder for Ryanair to prove EIN is loss making, when all they've done is reverse the flights, effectively still serving the market. Ryanair's only hope would then be to completely shut down all flying to/from EIN - an airport which by all accounts is turning them a healthy profit. THEN they could lay off all staff, but obviously only in accordance with Dutch law as has been outlined previously in this thread.

Ceasing to fly any planes in as unprofitable is difficult to argue with.
How long is FR-EIN deal ?

paperHanger

6th Nov 2018, 22:13

This isn't going to dampen the flames either ...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46114097

ShotOne

6th Nov 2018, 22:26

At least the sackings mean Ryanair can now say no Ryanair staff had to sleep on the floor! (Since they’re no longer staff!) You couldn’t make it up! What century is this?

flyingmed

7th Nov 2018, 00:29

At least the sackings mean Ryanair can now say no Ryanair staff had to sleep on the floor! (Since they’re no longer staff!) You couldn’t make it up! What century is this?

Mind you in most companies now days the threat of of industrial damage due to employees social media accounts is covered by strict social media rules. It is very unfortunate these 6 crew lost their jobs however I do have to say that this photo seemed like a blatant attempt to cause damage to the companies reputation. I believe most companies now would call for dismissal if such an event took place or at least a very stern warning.

The cctv footage also showed that this was not just a random lie down to take a rest but rather an orchestrated event, a childish one at that.

Sonikt

8th Nov 2018, 02:27

flyingmed

8th Nov 2018, 12:25

Then this (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6363687/amp/Ryanair-CEO-sued-U-S-stock-price-labor-relations.html) happened!

quote: 'Unbeknownst to investors, the company's historical profit growth was built on an undisclosed and unsustainable foundation of worker exploitation and employee turnover,'

With any company in the face of employee disputes the company will try to 'save face' and minimise the problems it is facing. It did seem like a standard response from FR management when the disputes started. I am sure a more realistic view was given behind closed doors. Most big investors don't look too much at media reports but rather the internal facts so I am curious to how they felt FR was negligent in this case?

longlayover

8th Nov 2018, 17:11

With any company in the face of employee disputes the company will try to 'save face' and minimise the problems it is facing. It did seem like a standard response from FR management when the disputes started. I am sure a more realistic view was given behind closed doors. Most big investors don't look too much at media reports but rather the internal facts so I am curious to how they felt FR was negligent in this case?

When you are a limited company you can not give the big investors realistic information behind closed doors and keep this information from other investors, that would be insider trading and is not only illegal but also very damaging for the trust in the stock market in general.

racedo

9th Nov 2018, 11:17

harrryw

9th Nov 2018, 12:01

Mind you in most companies now days the threat of of industrial damage due to employees social media accounts is covered by strict social media rules. It is very unfortunate these 6 crew lost their jobs however I do have to say that this photo seemed like a blatant attempt to cause damage to the companies reputation. I believe most companies now would call for dismissal if such an event took place or at least a very stern warning.

The cctv footage also showed that this was not just a random lie down to take a rest but rather an orchestrated event, a childish one at that.
There were times that companies thought of their responsibilities to their employees and if they had this could never have happened so it could not have been in social media.
A bit like rushing out the black paint to cover up the logos when the results of lack of mainainance occur.

flyingmed

9th Nov 2018, 14:19

When you are a limited company you can not give the big investors realistic information behind closed doors and keep this information from other investors, that would be insider trading and is not only illegal but also very damaging for the trust in the stock market in general.

I'm just referring to the fact that any normal investor would do some research before investing. Those people who invest in FR because they see O'Leary on tv saying "Everything is fine!" are not the smartest. it is his job to paint a nice picture of Ryanair to ensure a stable future for the company. Basically the idea that he is 'frauding investors' because he is trying to calm markets saying FR is fine is quite bizarre.

There were times that companies thought of their responsibilities to their employees and if they had this could never have happened so it could not have been in social media.
A bit like rushing out the black paint to cover up the logos when the results of lack of mainainance occur.

Yes I agree the company are probably terrible to work for, however I am only speaking towards the crew. Their actions were very stupid in my opinion and any company (not only FR) would have fired them for publicly criticizing them. The debate about FR and how they treat the employees is a boring one as I think we are all in agreement there!

kessler1

9th Nov 2018, 14:46

[/QUOTE I do have to say that this photo seemed like a blatant attempt to cause damage to the companies reputation.
.[/QUOTE]

I don't often reply in the rumours and news. However I have been following this post since the beginning as I had sort of a vested interest - I had a flight booked with Ryanair back in September. Having been on the receiving end of one of the strikes - the return flight was cancelled at short notice, potentially leaving me and my woman stranded in Germany - I feel the need to respond. Whilst the pic of the cabin crew pretending to be asleep on the floor may have been childish, I believe that Ryanair have done a great job already of damaging the company's reputation by the number of strikes that have already taken place. I for one will never fly with them again - and this was my first and last flight with them!

It is to be hoped that the thousands of other passengers who have had flights cancelled by them will feel the same way. Our return flight was to have taken place on a Wednesday but was cancelled on a Tuesday afternoon, around 2.30pm German time, but by the time we found out it was around 6pm. Ryanair were only able to offer another flight home on the Friday afternoon but we had to be home due to commitments on the day of the original return flight. Therefore we had to try and arrange a flight with another airline. By that time we were left with the dregs that nobody else wanted to pay for - We had to pay around 1200 Euros with Eurowings in business class to get home.

Ryanair would only refund the return part of the flight which amounted to a total of around £83.

My sympathies lie with the flight and cabin crew in this dispute.

So as I say, Ryanair themselves have damaged their own reputation.

flyingmed

9th Nov 2018, 15:39

My sympathies lie with the flight and cabin crew in this dispute.

So as I say, Ryanair themselves have damaged their own reputation.

I agree they damage their own reputation however they are the company, they are free to do whatever damage they want. Employees can't damage the reputation and get a free pass. If you wrote defamatory statements or posted pictures on Facebook etc. about whatever company you work for I am sure your company would take action. I do have sympathy for the crew who are legitimately trying to gain working conditions and job security, but as I said in an earlier post this is not a legitimate way to gain those things.

All of these incidents will definitely make it harder for the unions to do their job as the discussions on working conditions and pay can be side tracked to discuss these events, that will cause undue delay to those workers who quietly wait for better conditions. By all means have legal strikes, work to rule and don't give any leeway to the company but follow all of these in a professional manner. You never look good trying to make someone else look bad.

Sonikt

9th Nov 2018, 17:14

I do have sympathy for the crew who are legitimately trying to gain working conditions and job security, but as I said in an earlier post this is not a legitimate way to gain those things.

We are talking about Ryanair

The airline themselves, through their own repeated actions, set the moral bar in the gutter.

It is well known that employees have tried for years to improve conditions through 'legitimate' channels, only to be foiled at every turn through various connivances

So it is hardly surprising that that some choose to play the airline at its own game, with a union in full support it seems.

In my opinion Ryanair are just reaping what they have sowed

flyingmed

9th Nov 2018, 17:44

That is fine and if that will be the case then so be it. But if we bring everyone down to that level Ryanair will still be an undesirable place to work even with unionised conditions. I thought the recent strikes and negotiations were to raise the standard and not bring everyone down to the level where Ryanair operate. The unionisation of Ryanair was mostly due to its own failures and not the unions, the unions merely jumped at the opportunity when the company was weak. Most of Ryanairs employees want it to be something along the lines of other 'nicer to work for' airlines, by keeping everything in the gutter how do conditions improve?

gearlever

9th Nov 2018, 19:56

German FAZ (very conservative) is reporting about Ryanair's sick policy and impounded 737 at Bordeaux.

Kranke Ryanair-Piloten müssen Kündigung fürchten (http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/unternehmen/ryanair-droht-kranken-piloten-mit-kuendigung-15883083.html)

infrequentflyer789

9th Nov 2018, 20:41

We are talking about Ryanair

The airline themselves, through their own repeated actions, set the moral bar in the gutter.

It is well known that employees have tried for years to improve conditions through 'legitimate' channels, only to be foiled at every turn through various connivances

Well known but apparently "unbeknownst to investors"... hmmm I think I smell a Ryanair defence to that lawsuit "how could anyone NOT know that our business was built on our a:mad:holery". :E

Sonikt

10th Nov 2018, 01:53

by keeping everything in the gutter how do conditions improve?

It could be said that some people in positions of power see integrity as a weakness to be ruthlessly exploited. This is distasteful to most but it is unfortunately also reality.

If you come to a gunfight with a sword, you are going to loose, regardless how 'gentlemanly' your actions. So to win a dirty fight, I'm afraid you may have to play dirty. This can be as simple as exposing your opponent's dirty tactics for the world to see, through whatever underhand means are necessary.

It is however completely understandable that aircrew may find these concepts difficult to comprehend - it is, after all, a career based on obeying various rules. It is perhaps this culture of compliance that attracts so many sociopathic types into the corridors of airline management.

But seems some aircrew are waking up to the darker side of reality. You don't have to like it, just accept that it is something deeply unpleasant you have to deal with. No different to an inflight mechanical failure really.